North Euro shift in SE Sicily implies some, but not all, of the northern input in Greece is native

[Sikeliot]

When compared to the rest of Sicily, people in the southeast do shift north -- both northeast and northwest -- by about 6-10%. Modern mainland Greeks shift north by about 20-25%. This implies SOME, but not all, of the north European shift in modern Greeks was native, present in ancient times, arrived after Mycenaeans did, and was carried to southeastern Sicily.

Some of it is created by elevated "Atlantic-Med" DNA in this part of Sicily, which is also high in mainland Greece and was present in the Mycenaeans.

Some examples on the Dodecad K12b calculator, where this shift is most noticeable.

Ragusa:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.1% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.06
2 74.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 25.2% German (Dodecad) @ 2.3
3 88.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.3% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.6
4 84.5% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.5% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.6
5 73.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.61
6 89.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.9% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.63
7 90.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.5% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.66
8 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.7
9 84.8% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.72
10 84.7% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.72
11 84.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.77
12 84.7% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 15.3% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.77
13 79.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.77
14 84.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.7% British (Dodecad) @ 2.77
15 88.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.78
16 88.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.1% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.78
17 84.1% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.78
18 90.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.6% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.78
19 90.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.8
20 58% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 42% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.87


Syracuse:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 42.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.26
2 76.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 23.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.42
3 77.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 22.9% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.63
4 84.4% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 15.6% Iranians (Behar) @ 2.63
5 89% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.64
6 87.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.3% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.67
7 90.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.8% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.68
8 62.7% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 37.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.68
9 90.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.9% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.69
10 83.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 16.1% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 2.73
11 89.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.7% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.74
12 88.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.74
13 69% TSI30 (Metspalu) + 31% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.76
14 89.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.7% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.77
15 87.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.2% German (Dodecad) @ 2.78
16 77.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 22.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.79
17 89.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.8
18 88.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.83
19 76.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 23.7% German (Dodecad) @ 2.83
20 88.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.3% English (Dodecad) @ 2.83


Syracuse:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.57
2 69.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 30.2% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.62
3 71.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 28.2% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.65
4 66.5% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.67
5 75.5% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) @ 2.85
6 70.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.96
7 70.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.6% British (Dodecad) @ 2.99
8 80.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 19.8% German (Dodecad) @ 3
9 61.4% TSI30 (Metspalu) + 38.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 3.03
10 78.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.2% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.03
11 71.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.9% Irish (Dodecad) @ 3.03
12 71.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.8% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.07
13 70.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.1% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 3.09
14 90.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.6% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 3.11
15 56.5% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 43.5% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.17
16 72.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 27.3% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 3.17
17 71.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.6% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 3.19
18 63.4% Tuscan (HGDP) + 36.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 3.19
19 78.4% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 21.6% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 3.2
20 93% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.2

[Lavrentis]

I have said it numerous times, it's in Northern Greece where you get people with clear Slavic ancestry from their DNA tests etc. Bulgarians and other Slavs were assimilated in northern Greece, but those who were assimilated were only those who stayed in Greece after the Balkan Wars. Most Slavs from northern Greece were expelled or left by themselves. And let's not forget the 50.000 numbered muslim Slavic (Pomak) community of northern Greece.

[Principe Azzurro]

This probably has do with the Doric Greeks in antiquity, South Eastern Sicily was colonized by Dorians.

[Freeroostah]

Interesting, check my results:

10 72.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 27.7% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.15
11 79.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.7% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.17
12 78.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21.2% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.17
13 74% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 26% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.25
14 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.27
15 75.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.7% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.37
16 77.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 22.2% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.46
17 75.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.6% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.49

Im 10%-15% Northern than the Sicilian population

[Sikeliot]

Then the western Sicilians shift toward the levant or berbers by the same amount these shift north.

[Sikeliot]

This probably has do with the Doric Greeks in antiquity, South Eastern Sicily was colonized by Dorians.

That's my guess, too.

[Coolguy1]

Here are some nmonte simulations for eastern Sicilians, they cannot be modeled as just Mycenaean and Levantine alone, they need an extra steppe input.

[1] "distance%=0.3368 / distance=0.003368"

Italian_EastSicilian

Closer_Mycenaean_Average 54.7
Lebanese_Christian 28.6
Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108 16.8



Compare it to my results as a mainlander.

[1] "distance%=0.3831 / distance=0.003831"

Sorcelow

Closer_Mycenaean_Average 72.9
Srubnaya:I0235 27.1

Even Cypriots need slight steppe influence in order to be modeled accurately

[1] "distance%=0.3526 / distance=0.003526"

Cypriot

Lebanese_Christian 68.05
Closer_Mycenaean_Average 27.25
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1538 2.55
Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0806 2.15

[Sizzo]

So, according to the last studies, Myceneans weren't IE? I've always thought they were: Achaeans, Ionians and Aeolians.

[GiCa]

Dorians were Indoeuropeans coming from Mainland Europe like Central Europe.

it s written in all history books

[Sikeliot]

Here are some nmonte simulations for eastern Sicilians, they cannot be modeled as just Mycenaean and Levantine alone, they need an extra steppe input.

[1] "distance%=0.3368 / distance=0.003368"

Italian_EastSicilian

Closer_Mycenaean_Average 54.7
Lebanese_Christian 28.6
Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108 16.8



Compare it to my results as a mainlander.

[1] "distance%=0.3831 / distance=0.003831"

Sorcelow

Closer_Mycenaean_Average 72.9
Srubnaya:I0235 27.1

Even Cypriots need slight steppe influence in order to be modeled accurately

[1] "distance%=0.3526 / distance=0.003526"

Cypriot

Lebanese_Christian 68.05
Closer_Mycenaean_Average 27.25
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1538 2.55
Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0806 2.15


What do West Sicilians-- in this case it's a Trapani sample-- get?

[Tauromachos]

Dorians were Indoeuropeans coming from Mainland Europe like Central Europe.

it s written in all history books

Wrong,see here the genealogy of the ancient Hellenes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Genealogy_of_Hellenes



(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Genealogy_of_Hellenes)

[Tauromachos]

Bump

[Coolguy1]

What do West Sicilians-- in this case it's a Trapani sample-- get?

This is the result I get when I am using the population average for the steppe samples, I think just using individual samples like in the last run overemphasized the Levantine component in Eastern Sicilians, but we still see the added steppe influence

[1] "distance%=0.4801 / distance=0.004801"

Italian_EastSicilian

Closer_Mycenaean_Average 78.0
Lebanese_Christian 15.2
Srubnaya 6.9

Here is the western Sicilian result

[1] "distance%=0.6711 / distance=0.006711"

Italian_WestSicilian

Closer_Mycenaean_Average 75.6
Lebanese_Christian 12.8
Srubnaya 11.6


Im not sure how accurate the samples are, they are found on the spreadsheet on the eurogenes blog. Here is southern Italy,

[1] "distance%=0.5226 / distance=0.005226"

Italian_South

Closer_Mycenaean_Average 66.9
Lebanese_Christian 24.7
Srubnaya 8.4
Corded_Ware_Germany 0.0

[Sikeliot]

That Sicilian West is Trapani which shifts north of other westerners. I'm not sure of its accuracy.

South Italy sample is Calabria.

[Sikeliot]

The key takeaway is this part of Sicily was Doric colonies and they do shift somewhat north.

[DarknessWin]

When compared to the rest of Sicily, people in the southeast do shift north -- both northeast and northwest -- by about 6-10%. Modern mainland Greeks shift north by about 20-25%. This implies SOME, but not all, of the north European shift in modern Greeks was native, present in ancient times, arrived after Mycenaeans did, and was carried to southeastern Sicily.

Some of it is created by elevated "Atlantic-Med" DNA in this part of Sicily, which is also high in mainland Greece and was present in the Mycenaeans.

Some examples on the Dodecad K12b calculator, where this shift is most noticeable.

Ragusa:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.1% Hungarians (Behar) @ 2.06
2 74.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 25.2% German (Dodecad) @ 2.3
3 88.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.3% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.6
4 84.5% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.5% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.6
5 73.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.61
6 89.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.9% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.63
7 90.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.5% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.66
8 90.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.3% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.7
9 84.8% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.72
10 84.7% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.72
11 84.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.77
12 84.7% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 15.3% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.77
13 79.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 20.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.77
14 84.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.7% British (Dodecad) @ 2.77
15 88.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.78
16 88.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.1% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.78
17 84.1% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 15.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.78
18 90.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.6% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.78
19 90.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.4% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.8
20 58% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 42% Romanians (Behar) @ 2.87


Syracuse:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 42.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.26
2 76.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 23.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.42
3 77.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 22.9% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.63
4 84.4% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 15.6% Iranians (Behar) @ 2.63
5 89% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.64
6 87.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.3% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.67
7 90.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.8% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.68
8 62.7% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 37.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.68
9 90.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.9% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.69
10 83.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 16.1% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 2.73
11 89.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.7% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.74
12 88.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.74
13 69% TSI30 (Metspalu) + 31% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.76
14 89.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.7% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.77
15 87.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.2% German (Dodecad) @ 2.78
16 77.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 22.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.79
17 89.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.8
18 88.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.4% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.83
19 76.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 23.7% German (Dodecad) @ 2.83
20 88.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.3% English (Dodecad) @ 2.83


Syracuse:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.57
2 69.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 30.2% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.62
3 71.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 28.2% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.65
4 66.5% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.67
5 75.5% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) @ 2.85
6 70.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.96
7 70.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.6% British (Dodecad) @ 2.99
8 80.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 19.8% German (Dodecad) @ 3
9 61.4% TSI30 (Metspalu) + 38.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 3.03
10 78.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 21.2% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.03
11 71.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.9% Irish (Dodecad) @ 3.03
12 71.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.8% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 3.07
13 70.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.1% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 3.09
14 90.4% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.6% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 3.11
15 56.5% N_Italian (Dodecad) + 43.5% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.17
16 72.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 27.3% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 3.17
17 71.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.6% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 3.19
18 63.4% Tuscan (HGDP) + 36.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 3.19
19 78.4% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 21.6% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 3.2
20 93% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 7% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.2

I agree with you 100% , i disagree only about your term slavic.
Its not slavic , ancient Greeks had this northern shift too

Ancient Greece = Pelasgians native (100% Med types) + Dorians (Pontids-DinaroMed)
so Greece was a mix of Meds + balkans + little North

[DarknessWin]

I have said it numerous times, it's in Northern Greece where you get people with clear Slavic ancestry from their DNA tests etc. Bulgarians and other Slavs were assimilated in northern Greece, but those who were assimilated were only those who stayed in Greece after the Balkan Wars. Most Slavs from northern Greece were expelled or left by themselves. And let's not forget the 50.000 numbered muslim Slavic (Pomak) community of northern Greece.

They are not assimilated, all Greece have north shift and it was the same in Ancient Greece too.
It dont come with the Slavs, its not Slavic but Dorian

When the war end all slavs exiled back to Bulgaria

[Sikeliot]

I agree with you 100% , i disagree only about your term slavic.
Its not slavic , ancient Greeks had this northern shift too

Ancient Greece = Pelasgians native (100% Med types) + Dorians (Pontids-DinaroMed)
so Greece was a mix of Meds + balkans + little North

Whatever you want to call it. All I know is that it is evident to me that if we assume people in this part of Sicily are more Greek than anything else, then some of the extra North Euro in Greeks is native and some arrived later (after they had settled in Sicily).

The first result which is coming up 1/8 Russian compared to the Sicilian average, could very well be someone of nearly full ancient Greek descent. The southeast part of Sicily almost entirely avoided Phoenician, Arab, Carthaginian input.