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View Full Version : Should Russia return Kuril Islands back to Japan?



black hole
09-05-2017, 09:47 AM
Your opinion?

Böri
09-05-2017, 10:09 AM
North Korea would bang you if you were to do so LOL

Loki
09-05-2017, 10:38 AM
No.

Loki
09-05-2017, 10:41 AM
Well maybe they can make a mutually beneficial deal. Japan gets the Kurils back, in return for Japan recognising Crimea as part of Russia, and not participating in US sanctions against Russia. That's a fair deal. Otherwise, no.

Sarmatian
09-05-2017, 11:07 AM
Ownership of Kuril islands makes Sea of Okhotsk internal Russian sea. Meaning the entire sea with all resources belongs to Russia and no other country could enter it without Russian permission. If Japan owns Kurils the sea will become international waters with anyone having rights to enter it and observe Russian military installations in the region. It simply doesn't happen.

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 11:11 AM
I know one nation/country which should be first in the line to get areas back from Russia (based on rightness/justice), and that ain't Japan.

Loki
09-05-2017, 11:17 AM
I know one nation/country which should be first in the line to get areas back from Russia (based on rightness/justice), and that ain't Japan.

Haha, Karelia? ;)

Sarmatian
09-05-2017, 11:18 AM
I know one nation/country which should be first in the line to get areas back from Russia (based on rightness/justice), and that ain't Japan.

Just stop with your chauvinistic nonsense already. You should be grateful to Russians for creating your nation. Because it never existed before, it was part of other entities all the way until 20th century.

Loki
09-05-2017, 11:18 AM
Ownership of Kuril islands makes Sea of Okhotsk internal Russian sea. Meaning the entire sea with all resources belongs to Russia and no other country could enter it without Russian permission. If Japan owns Kurils the sea will become international waters with anyone having rights to enter it and observe Russian military installations in the region. It simply doesn't happen.

That's a very good point! And of course, if that happened, you know the US will use their "freedom of navigation" rights very quickly... as they have done with China in South China Sea. :rolleyes:

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 11:23 AM
Haha, Karelia? ;)

Got it right.

Plus Salla and Petsamo.

But yes...especially lost of Karealia and Viipuri city (Vyborg) was the biggest lost to Finns (culturelly, emotionally etc.). And here I only mean Karealia area which had belonged to Finland. Not Petroskoi, Syväri yms. areas....if here are some Russians around.

Loki
09-05-2017, 11:23 AM
On the other hand.. Finland used to be part of the Russian Empire. Finland as a nation state got its independence first from Russia, if I understand it correctly?

Porn Master
09-05-2017, 11:28 AM
Alaska was also Russian. Karelia was Finland like German Koningsberg(Kaliningrad) now is in Russia

Böri
09-05-2017, 11:28 AM
On the other hand.. Finland used to be part of the Russian Empire. Finland as a nation state got its independence first from Russia, if I understand it correctly?

When it was under Russian empire, the educated and elites of them entered under German influence and that helped them break off from Russia following a civil war. Communist Finns wanted to remain part of USSR and White Finns wanted to win independence. White Finns defeated Red Finns in 1918 civil war with substantial German help and even German-trained Finnish troops. Their Protestant and Western identity played obviously.

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 11:30 AM
On the other hand.. Finland used to be part of the Russian Empire. Finland as a nation state got its independence first from Russia, if I understand it correctly?

Yup. Autonomous part of Russia about 100years (keeping Sweden's time laws, keeping Lutheran church, no bodmen like in Russia, keeping Finnish and Swedish languages. etc,). And before that era part of Sweden 700years.

For me it doen't matter who gave the independency. Viipuri was Finnish people city all the time until 1944. It was 2. biggest city in Finland (late 1930's) and culturelly the most important.

Loki
09-05-2017, 11:45 AM
Yup. Autonomous part of Russia about 100years (keeping Sweden's time laws, keeping Lutheran church, no bodmen like in Russia, keeping Finnish and Swedish languages. etc,). And before that era part of Sweden 700years.

For me it doen't matter who gave the independency. Viipuri was Finnish people city all the time until 1944. It was 2. biggest city in Finland (late 1930's) and culturelly the most important.

It doesn't look like Finns and Russians have many problems these days. The Finns are not so paranoid as the Poles and Estonians. And Swedes, for that matter (Swedes because they're America's cucks).

Loki
09-05-2017, 11:47 AM
For me it doen't matter who gave the independency.

Independence was not an important event for you?

Сербо Макеридов
09-05-2017, 11:50 AM
No.

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 01:09 PM
It doesn't look like Finns and Russians have many problems these days. The Finns are not so paranoid as the Poles and Estonians. And Swedes, for that matter (Swedes because they're America's cucks).

Yup. Mental issue. Finns have always tried to live in peace. Same fits today. Neighbours just have not always allowed that luxury.
Tsar Nikolai II had once said that Finland is the least problematic area in whole Russia. He was quite right...we know what happened.

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 01:25 PM
Independence was not an important event for you?

Of course it was (and still is). Actually on December Finland will become 100years old :victory0:. Finland's President have met Putin every year face to face (no matter the official EU policy). This year already twice. And Putin congratulated 100years old Finland at June as visitng here. Well, nobody knows what he or Russians really thinks (Finns knows that better than any). But again Finland hardly is the most problematic country by the eyes of Russians. Not even that Finland- Russia (land)border is the longest one Russians have with any European country.

Yup. Indepence era finally allowed Finns to show what kind of people they really are and what they are capable to do vs other nations. Before that all possible credits (what they did) went to Russians or especially for Swedes.

Keep it still in mind: Russians did't offer Indepence to Finns. Of course not. Finns were themselves active (bit same ways as Baltics late 1990s)...and ''pressured'' it from Russians. Then Bolseviks were planning and starting to take the power, I bet Finland was one of the least issue in their heads.

Anyway; that all won't change the fact what happened 1939 - 1944. Wars between Sovjet and Finland? Stalin & Sovjets/Russians were the bad guys. They were winners side in the end? Yes. But that won't change it.

Peterski
09-05-2017, 01:40 PM
Yup. Autonomous part of Russia about 100years (keeping Sweden's time laws, keeping Lutheran church, no bodmen like in Russia, keeping Finnish and Swedish languages. etc,). And before that era part of Sweden 700years.

For me it doen't matter who gave the independency. Viipuri was Finnish people city all the time until 1944. It was 2. biggest city in Finland (late 1930's) and culturelly the most important.

It doesn't look like Finns and Russians have many problems these days. The Finns are not so paranoid as the Poles and Estonians. And Swedes, for that matter (Swedes because they're America's cucks).

I don't think that the Poles are paranoid about Russia.

But Stalin took away Lwów from Poland - and Lwów was even more important for us than Viipuri for the Finns. It was the 3rd largest city of pre-war Poland, culturally the 2nd most important one (after Warsaw), and the main city of Southern Poland (Cracow was only 2nd). Ethnically it was a Polish city with a Jewish minority, and it was supposed to stay with Poland even based on the original Curzon Line.

And Lwów is only ~70 km from the modern border of Poland.

Getting Szczecin (I think that's what Poland got "extra", because Szczecin is located mostly to the west of the Oder River - so it should have stayed with Germany even with those border changes) did not compensate the loss of Lwów, for many reasons.

zhaoyun
09-05-2017, 01:44 PM
Nah, you're good :p

Loki
09-05-2017, 02:28 PM
Yup. Mental issue. Finns have always tried to live in peace. Same fits today. Neighbours just have not always allowed that luxury.
Tsar Nikolai II had once said that Finland is the least problematic area in whole Russia. He was quite right...we know what happened.

That's pretty good. Some other countries can definitely take lessons from Finland.

Loki
09-05-2017, 02:34 PM
I don't think that the Poles are paranoid about Russia.


They are, my friend, nothing personal! :D

I think the main problem is that so many people in Eastern Europe still think Russia is a Communist country. It isn't. Things have changed drastically, doesn't matter what propaganda you read in the Western media.

Loki
09-05-2017, 02:36 PM
Nah, you're good :p

If Japan is a bad boy, Russia could always sell them to the Chinese. :p

zhaoyun
09-05-2017, 02:37 PM
If Japan is a bad boy, Russia could always sell them to the Chinese. :p

That'd be fucking hilarious. lol

Dandelion
09-05-2017, 02:40 PM
That'd be fucking hilarious. lol

The only islands which can get you riled up currently are the Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands. Getting the Kuril Island for China would create a new point of contention with Japanese for future titan clashes. :)

I just find it a pity no (preferably nationalist) Japanese person posts here.

glass
09-05-2017, 02:43 PM
There is only one way to get spoils of war back. And that is not whining and begging:rolleyes:

zhaoyun
09-05-2017, 02:45 PM
The only islands which can get you riled up currently are the Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands. Getting the Kuril Island for China would create a new point of contention with Japanese for future titan clashes. :)

I just find it a pity no (preferably nationalist) Japanese person posts here.

China getting the Kurils would basically be a troll move. lol

zhaoyun
09-05-2017, 02:47 PM
There is only one way to get spoils of war back. And that is not whining and begging:rolleyes:

Exactly. Besides, Japan offers absolutely nothing useful to Russia except for maybe increased consumption of it's gas. That's Japan's primary problem nowadays, it's basically just a US client state and besides some tech or financial aid, offers little substantive. Definitely nothing important enough to warrant getting those very strategically important islands back.

Loki
09-05-2017, 03:05 PM
I just find it a pity no (preferably nationalist) Japanese person posts here.

Indeed. We actually have a few members from China proper here already. Another account registered a few days ago and posts classification stuff. Perhaps only a matter of time before some Japanese find the forum.

zhaoyun
09-05-2017, 03:11 PM
Indeed. We actually have a few members from China proper here already. Another account registered a few days ago and posts classification stuff. Perhaps only a matter of time before some Japanese find the forum.

I miss Goujian, he was a good poster.

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 03:13 PM
There is only one way to get spoils of war back. And that is not whining and begging:rolleyes:

Was that to Japan or to Finland?

By the force you meant?

Finland can never get those areas back by force. That should be clear to everyone, or? Last time Finns killed Russians 4:1 , so there should be atleast 40million Finns. Today...5,6million? Nope, that's much much too less. But that won't change the fact: Russians did wrong 1939-1944.

BTW: You're partly wrong, never hear Porkkala?

Armenian Bishop
09-05-2017, 03:14 PM
Well maybe they can make a mutually beneficial deal. Japan gets the Kurils back, in return for Japan recognising Crimea as part of Russia, and not participating in US sanctions against Russia. That's a fair deal. Otherwise, no.

Agree ... Russia has a historical precedent for a valid claim to the Crimea. I guess that Japan has written off the idea of getting those islands back (at least for now), so that kind of haggling hasn't entered the picture.

glass
09-05-2017, 04:14 PM
Exactly. Besides, Japan offers absolutely nothing useful to Russia except for maybe increased consumption of it's gas. That's Japan's primary problem nowadays, it's basically just a US client state and besides some tech or financial aid, offers little substantive. Definitely nothing important enough to warrant getting those very strategically important islands back.
Yeah and fact that selfrespecting countries do not pass their lands away

Was that to Japan or to Finland?

By the force you meant?

Finland can never get those areas back by force. That should be clear to everyone, or? Last time Finns killed Russians 4:1 , so there should be atleast 40million Finns. Today...5,6million? Nope, that's much much too less.

Yes taken by force can only be taken back by force as well. Or try to outlive Russia and be ready to fight for/securer remnants:rolleyes: You did not kill russians 4:1, soldiers were frozen in ice forest because of idiotic commandment send them on offensive with -20C outside. Once weather was suitable for proper attack Finland begged for peace. Anyway you can blame yourself for foolishness. You were offered bargain which would yield you some land with Vyborg remainig under Finland's control, but your desicionmakers decide to fight war they could not win.

Russians did wrong 1939-1944.
You know if Finland was not secure heaven and base of operation for bolshevik terrorists, they might would lose Civil War. IT is kinda ironic that all those Lenins were safer in Russian(!) Finland than in Germany, France or UK, because latter were actually collaborating with tsarist government on terrorist issue. Thus Stalinist regime would never happen, Germany would have been properly beaten and watched from both sides afterwards. There would not be need to be worried about nazi client state right next to most important city in the country. There can be many "what if" and "what would". But it is always good to look at bigger picture.

BTW: You're partly wrong, never hear Porkkala?
never heard

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 04:22 PM
Yeah and fact that selfrespecting countries do not pass their lands away

Yes taken by force can only be taken back by force as well. Or try to outlive Russia and be ready to fight for/securer remnants:rolleyes: You did not kill russians 4:1, soldiers were frozen in ice forest because of idiotic commandment send them on offensive with -20C outside. Once weather was suitable for proper attack Finland begged for peace. Anyway you can blame yourself for foolishness. You were offered bargain which would yield you some land with Vyborg remainig under Finland's control, but your desicionmakers decide to fight war they could not win.

You know if Finland was not secure heaven and base of operation for bolshevik terrorists, they might would lose Civil War. IT is kinda ironic that all those Lenins were safer in Russian(!) Finland than in Germany, France or UK, because latter were actually collaborating with tsarist government on terrorist issue. Thus Stalinist regime would never happen, Germany would have been properly beaten and watched from both sides afterwards. There would not be need to be worried about nazi client state right next to most important city in the country. There can be many "what if" and "what would". But it is always good to look at bigger picture.

never heard

I know you do't (Porkkala)...you have learned the history (and the facts) from Russian (school) books.
Meaning: this discussion is pointless and I will end it now.

Still no hard feelings, I hope? ..... as that was nothing personal. And individual level Finns men and Russian men comes along just okey. Especially if there is a vodka bottle on the table :). Doesn't matter is it Koskenkorva or Stolichnaya.

ЛыSSый
09-05-2017, 04:30 PM
jaja, and hokkaido must be returned back to.

glass
09-05-2017, 05:49 PM
I know you do't (Porkkala)...you have learned the history (and the facts) from Russian (school) books.
Meaning: this discussion is pointless and I will end it now.

Did you learn about this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tartu_(Russian%E2%80%93Finnish)) and this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_uprising_and_Soviet%E2%80%93Finnish_ conflict_of_1921%E2%80%9322) in finnish school? I guess not, because it does not fit image of "innocent victim":rolleyes:

Still no hard feelings, I hope?
You can't survive on this forum for 4+ years with hard feelings:rolleyes:

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 06:02 PM
Did you learn about this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tartu_(Russian%E2%80%93Finnish)) and this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_uprising_and_Soviet%E2%80%93Finnish_ conflict_of_1921%E2%80%9322) in finnish school? I guess not, because it does not fit image of "innocent victim":rolleyes:

You can't survive on this forum for 4+ years with hard feelings:rolleyes:

Yup. And lot of more.

The common history is veryyy long. No humans are innocent. But you know very well who has caused more sorrow to another, do't you? For example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_during_the_Great_Northern_War

So just stop there.

glass
09-05-2017, 07:15 PM
Yup. And lot of more.
So lets make things clear. How does it look from soviet point of view. Soviet government recongnizes independence of Finland, yet Finland attacks territory of Soviet Russia. Soviet government then cede some territories and sign treaty that set border, yet Finland sends "expeditions" into territory of Soviet Russia. So Soviet Russia has treacherous neighbour that does not bother honor agreements and ready to stab in the back. Why would anyone be suprised that russians "gone bad" when new big war in Europe is almost inevitable, while recent experience with sneaky neighbour is still very fresh in mind?

The common history is veryyy long.
Exactly, and saying that russians did wrong then and then without references to long common history is kinda not really accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlan...t_Northern_War
Soviet government did not claim continuity with tsarist Russia, rather opposite. Soviets intended to build everything (including relations with neighbouring entities) anew. You can't say Soviet government did not try to make Finno-Soviet relations good.

Finnish Swede
09-05-2017, 07:45 PM
So lets make things clear. How does it look from soviet point of view. Soviet government recongnizes independence of Finland, yet Finland attacks territory of Soviet Russia. Soviet government then cede some territories and sign treaty that set border, yet Finland sends "expeditions" into territory of Soviet Russia. So Soviet Russia has treacherous neighbour that does not bother honor agreements and ready to stab in the back. Why would anyone be suprised that russians "gone bad" when new big war in Europe is almost inevitable, while recent experience with sneaky neighbour is still very fresh in mind?

Exactly, and saying that russians did wrong then and then without references to long common history is kinda not really accurate.

Soviet government did not claim continuity with tsarist Russia, rather opposite. Soviets intended to build everything (including relations with neighbouring entities) anew. You can't say Soviet government did not try to make Finno-Soviet relations good.

Well; for Finns you're the same. What political system you might have, doesn't change it. From the time there are any history writings/information available. And same goes with possible ''crime lists''.
As genes, culture, language, ancestors, your basic behavior (close to culture), you outlook... all are still the same. So should some ethnics history just be forgiven/forgotten if their political system might change? Nope.

Ok. I guess you personally wanted this? So now you can finally stop this => Yup...you got into my ''list''.

Bye.

sailormoon
09-05-2017, 08:42 PM
http://eastasiaintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/kuril.jpg

The South Kuril Islands are composed of Iturup, Kunashir, Shikotan and Habomai Islands and the Soviet Union agreed to return the two small islands in the 1950s, namely Shikotan and Habomai, upon signing a peace treaty with Japan. Putin has no plan to return the two major islands (Iturup, Kunashir) but he is ready to go back to the Soviet plan. Back in the 1950s, Japan was still controlled by the United States, which prevented the deal from materializing because of the Cold War.

Article 9 of the Soviet–Japanese Joint Declaration of 1956 stated: "The U.S.S.R. and Japan have agreed to continue, after the establishment of normal diplomatic relations between them, negotiations for the conclusion of a peace treaty. Hereby, the U.S.S.R., in response to the desires of Japan and taking into consideration the interest of the Japanese state, agrees to hand over to Japan the Habomai and the Shikotan Islands, provided that the actual changing over to Japan of these islands will be carried out after the conclusion of a peace treaty".

Loki
09-05-2017, 10:38 PM
Well; for Finns you're the same. What political system you might have, doesn't change it. From the time there are any history writings/information available. And same goes with possible ''crime lists''.
Genes, culture, language, ancestors, your basic behavior (close to your culture)... all are the same.

Ok. I guess you personally wanted this? So now you can finally stop this => Yup...you got into my ''list''.

Bye.

Disappointing.

ЛыSSый
09-05-2017, 10:55 PM
Let me be the baba Vanga: Hokkaido is russia, japan is chinece.

Sarmatian
09-06-2017, 09:50 AM
When it was under Russian empire, the educated and elites of them entered under German influence and that helped them break off from Russia following a civil war. Communist Finns wanted to remain part of USSR and White Finns wanted to win independence. White Finns defeated Red Finns in 1918 civil war with substantial German help and even German-trained Finnish troops. Their Protestant and Western identity played obviously.

There was no such thing as Finnish identity until late 19th century. Even their folk tales Kalevala were compiled by orders and with money from Russian government. As a nation Finns were created by Russian tsarist government from scratch. Even uniform language and literacy had to be created.

Fractal
09-06-2017, 09:59 AM
There was no such thing as Finnish identity until late 19th century. Even their folk tales Kalevala were compiled by orders and with money from Russian government. As a nation Finns were created by Russian tsarist government from scratch. Even uniform language and literacy had to be created.

Sort of like how the Swedish Varangians gave the indigenous Slavs and Finno-Ugrian tribes in Russia their own identity. And the later German and Dutch colonists who were brought over by the tsarist government to build the empire.

Finnish Swede
09-06-2017, 10:23 AM
There was no such thing as Finnish identity until late 19th century. Even their folk tales Kalevala were compiled by orders and with money from Russian government. As a nation Finns were created by Russian tsarist government from scratch. Even uniform language and literacy had to be created.

Free to believe what you want. I could tell you so much more...real life examples...and how Finns have though about Russians (much much longer back in history).

But I guess it has been one of 7 miracles that it grew up so quickly? First 1917- 1918 (civil war) and then just 20year later those two sides faced neck by neck much much bigger Red army (like making suicides).
For what?

PS: I'm not gonna continue this with you too. Ignore list is good enough tool...

Sarmatian
09-06-2017, 10:54 AM
Sort of like how the Swedish Varangians gave the indigenous Slavs and Finno-Ugrian tribes in Russia their own identity. And the later German and Dutch colonists who were brought over by the tsarist government to build the empire.

There was no Swedish during times of Varangians. Read some history books for a change.

Dragoon
09-06-2017, 11:02 AM
I have some questions:

How many people live there?
What is the ethnic percentages?
What is the strategic value of this land?

Sarmatian
09-06-2017, 11:02 AM
Free to believe what you want. I could tell you so much more...real life examples...and how Finns have though about Russians (much much longer back in history).

But I guess it has been one of 7 miracles that it grew up so quickly? First 1917- 1918 (civil war) and then just 20year later those two sides faced neck by neck much much bigger Red army (like making suicides).
For what?

PS: I'm not gonna continue this with you too. Ignore list is good enough tool...

Firstly, my post wasn't addressed to you, yet you replied.

Secondly, what Finns have thought about Russian is absolutely irrelevant. History is history and not affected by personal attitudes. That is if we talk about science, not folk tales.

Lastly, you have very interesting method to avoid debates you couldn't win - just put anyone who doesn't agree with you or stating uncomfortable facts on ignore list. Allows you to pretend like you hold higher truth while being totally ignorant. Good luck with that.

Hexachordia
09-06-2017, 11:05 AM
I always think Russian culture is one of the greatests, just Peter The Great failed to protect his own bloodline and yielded to ursupers. This is a very iteresting topic since many countries have been more or less invaded by Russia or Soviets, the problem of retrievement of former territories will be discussed here and there. I personally am OK with Russia occupying Siberia, but no OK with Russia annexing the whole Arctic areas. Kiril Islands would be best if independent, thats all, I do not see Japan occupying them as better, nor is Russia.

Sarmatian
09-06-2017, 11:11 AM
I have some questions:

How many people live there?
What is the ethnic percentages?
What is the strategic value of this land?

1. Just over 19000.
2. Most are from continent. Locals like Ainu are very few. No Japanese.
3. Already explained https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220342-Should-Russia-return-Kuril-Islands-back-to-Japan&p=4622596&viewfull=1#post4622596

If Japan owns islands it will also own 200 km of sea around each island. It will allow Japanese to fish close to islands. Since Sea of Okhotsk will become international waters Japs and anyone else will be able to fish there too.

MagnusAurelius
09-06-2017, 10:52 PM
Free to believe what you want. I could tell you so much more...real life examples...and how Finns have though about Russians (much much longer back in history).

But I guess it has been one of 7 miracles that it grew up so quickly? First 1917- 1918 (civil war) and then just 20year later those two sides faced neck by neck much much bigger Red army (like making suicides).
For what?

PS: I'm not gonna continue this with you too. Ignore list is good enough tool...

Finns are 60% Haplogroup N because of so many Mongols banging Caucasoid Finnish women, hahahaha. Most ethnic Finns are 8-20% East Asian racially , depending on the person.

Finnish Swede
09-06-2017, 11:19 PM
Finns are 60% Haplogroup N because of so many Mongols banging Caucasoid Finnish women, hahahaha. Most ethnic Finns are 8-20% East Asian racially , depending on the person.

And you are ugly looking guy. So what?

Root
09-23-2017, 12:14 PM
Definitely, Kurils belong to Japan.. Japanese would turn these small islands to a paradise

Odin
02-11-2018, 10:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsmjyv5U8BI

Mingle
02-11-2018, 10:48 PM
I meant to vote no, voted yes on accident -_-

ЛыSSый
02-11-2018, 10:54 PM
And you are ugly looking guy. So what?

check yourself. despite you imagine yourself as swede let me predict about 25% asian dna.

About jaoan: it's not a time a think about kuriles when japan needs to be liberated from murican yoke.

sean
08-19-2019, 11:36 AM
Kuril Islands are Japanese. The Soviets broke the non-aggression pact with Japan and invaded Manchuria, South Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands.

Why have these slavs been allowed to steal all these lands from the indigenous people?

Div
08-19-2019, 05:17 PM
Do these Islands have warm water ports?

Art23
08-19-2019, 05:56 PM
Russia should be forced to return all stolen lands: Kurils to Japan, Crimea to Ukraine, East Prussia to Germany, Abrene to Latvia, Karelia to Finland... and that's not nearly all.

Voskos
08-19-2019, 06:01 PM
No idea.

Cumansky
08-19-2019, 06:02 PM
Kaliningrad to Poland, Ukraine to Poland, Belarus to Poland, not nearly all

Ford
08-19-2019, 06:02 PM
The what?

Voskos
08-19-2019, 06:03 PM
Probably Russia stole them by accident. Shit happens .

Ülev
08-19-2019, 06:03 PM
Kaliningrad to Poland, Ukraine to Poland, Belarus to Poland, not nearly all

interesting, there were some promises few years ago, in Sochi

https://a.uguu.se/KtqTHNoKZD0F_konigsbergsochi.jpg

Cumansky
08-19-2019, 06:13 PM
Probably Russia stole them by accident. Shit happens .

Russia and accident is not belong same sentence

Nurzat
08-19-2019, 06:14 PM
no, Russia should not give anything "back", they should get their territories back instead. USSR territories, that is. plus Russians should be the protectors of all Slavic countries - which should join the Russian Federation as autonomous entities, it'd be win-win

Voskos
08-19-2019, 06:17 PM
Rassiya do Tokija is almost not a joke.

Cumansky
08-19-2019, 06:19 PM
no, Russia should not give anything "back", they should get their territories back instead. USSR territories, that is. plus Russians should be the protectors of all Slavic countries - which should join the Russian Federation as autonomous entities, it'd be win-win

Russia is nothing, I even know their top spys I take shots with them at the nightclub in Canada

Cumansky
08-19-2019, 06:27 PM
no, Russia should not give anything "back", they should get their territories back instead. USSR territories, that is. plus Russians should be the protectors of all Slavic countries - which should join the Russian Federation as autonomous entities, it'd be win-win

So you want your Romania to be Russia lol

pulstar
08-19-2019, 06:54 PM
Why would Russia do that? :D

pulstar
08-19-2019, 06:57 PM
So you want your Romania to be Russia lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFSsy29oaAc

Cumansky
08-19-2019, 07:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFSsy29oaAc

I spy on Russian spys, I'm that kind of nigga call me Yakov Sverdlov

Ülev
08-19-2019, 07:02 PM
I spy on Russian spys, I'm that kind of nigga call me Yakov Sverdlov

privetchik, kak delo?

Cumansky
08-19-2019, 07:09 PM
privetchik, kak delo?

Hola senor

Mingle
08-19-2019, 10:26 PM
Russia should be forced to return all stolen lands: Kurils to Japan, Crimea to Ukraine, East Prussia to Germany, Abrene to Latvia, Karelia to Finland... and that's not nearly all.

They also annexed some Estonian territory in violation of the Treaty of Tartu (1920).

Also, I heard Russia offered Kaliningrad to Lithuania but Lithuania refused cause the region was very undeveloped and Russian-majority and they thought that dealing with it would make things complicated for them. Although the map of Europe would look neater if Kaliningrad wasn't part of Russia.

Not a Cop
08-19-2019, 11:29 PM
Russia should be forced to return all stolen lands: Kurils to Japan, Crimea to Ukraine, East Prussia to Germany, Abrene to Latvia, Karelia to Finland... and that's not nearly all.

1st of all Crimea was stolen by Krushev.

Secondly you'll have to explain how and when in this world Karelia was stolen.

Sarmatian
08-20-2019, 05:43 AM
Kuril Islands are Japanese. The Soviets broke the non-aggression pact with Japan and invaded Manchuria, South Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands.

Why have these slavs been allowed to steal all these lands from the indigenous people?

Ignorant much? Since when Japs are indigenous people of Sakhalin and Kurils? They are invaders. Ainu are natives. They were exterminated by Japanese but under Russian protection they live happily the way they like.

Sarmatian
08-20-2019, 05:49 AM
So you want your Romania to be Russia lol

Another ignoramus. Since when Romania became a Slavic country???

sean
08-20-2019, 05:53 AM
Ignorant much? Since when Japs are indigenous people of Sakhalin and Kurils? They are invaders. Ainu are natives. They were exterminated by Japanese but under Russian protection they live happily the way they like.

They still technically and legally belong to Japan. Since neither the Soviets or Russia have signed a formal peace treaty and negotiated any holdings since WW2. The Treaty of St Petersburg 1875 is still in effect.

Sarmatian
08-20-2019, 06:15 AM
They still technically and legally belong to Japan. Since neither the Soviets or Russia have signed a formal peace treaty and negotiated any holdings since WW2. The Treaty of St Petersburg 1875 is still in effect.

One can argue of it all they want but technically they belongs to Russia as result of WW2. The legal status is not finalized indeed but claiming legal possession by Japan is huge stretch. Legally it's militarily contested territories with effective ceasefire since the end of WW2. If Japan wants it they can try and take it by force.

Your only argument is that you really want it to belong to Japan just to disrupt Russian territorial integrity.

sean
08-20-2019, 07:56 AM
Your only argument is that you really want it to belong to Japan just to disrupt Russian territorial integrity.

Russia is very close to some African shithole when it comes to infrastructure, healthcare, social benefits, income and education.

I am sure they would be be better off annexed by Japan.

Sarmatian
08-20-2019, 09:43 AM
Russia is very close to some African shithole when it comes to infrastructure, healthcare, social benefits, income and education.

I am sure they would be be better off annexed by Japan.

You like them Japs sucking big fat Murican ding ding dong. You wish to keep it this way.

Too bad Russians have their own big fat sausage to offer. It seems like Japs are on the way to switch from Murican to Russian master. For variety of reasons. You could be upset and offended over it all you want but you have no say on the matter. The process is in motion.

PAGANE
08-20-2019, 10:01 AM
When Hawaii is returned to the locals and the entire North American continent is returned to those who are detained on reserves

Roy
08-20-2019, 12:19 PM
They should, but they won't as too much time has passed.

sean
08-20-2019, 02:19 PM
You like them Japs sucking big fat Murican ding ding dong. You wish to keep it this way.

Comrade Pinko, there's a very good reason the world expects the Americans to be the ones that actually succeed at space colonies.

Your garbage incompetent leadership would run any country into the ground regardless of system.


Too bad Russians have their own big fat sausage to offer. It seems like Japs are on the way to switch from Murican to Russian master. For variety of reasons. You could be upset and offended over it all you want but you have no say on the matter. The process is in motion.

And no one in the west cares about you got to offer. You really think anyone here gives a shit about your country's opinion on geopolitics? Let me know when you guys crack the top 10 world economies lel.

There's a reason why the west developed countries like Japan and South Korea. It was to show North Korea, Vietnam, China, and the whole Asian community as a whole that western liberal style democracies and economies were ideal and that they should adopt our system.

Japan would pretty much be the only nation in the region that would 100% have our back in the case of war.

Ayetooey
08-20-2019, 02:24 PM
No.

Daco Celtic
08-20-2019, 02:30 PM
Give it to Japan based on the fact that Japanese culture is superior to Russian culture in every conceivable way.

Art23
08-20-2019, 03:43 PM
1st of all Crimea was stolen by Krushev.

Secondly you'll have to explain how and when in this world Karelia was stolen.

Crimea has become a part of Ukraine following all legal procedures. Ukrainians helped to rebuild it after WW2. Then in 1991, when the USSR has fortunately ended, Russia signed all papers recognising Crimea as a part of Ukraine. Suddenly, in 2015, Russia has attacked Ukraine and occupied the peninsula. And now you have sanctions against Russia and nobody recognises Crimea as a part of Russia.

Karelia has become a part of Russia after Russians had attacked Finland in 1939. The shameful Winter War was for many decades banned from Russian history books. Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Rumata
08-20-2019, 07:37 PM
Crimea has become a part of Ukraine following all legal procedures. Ukrainians helped to rebuild it after WW2. Then in 1991, when the USSR has fortunately ended, Russia signed all papers recognising Crimea as a part of Ukraine. Suddenly, in 2015, Russia has attacked Ukraine and occupied the peninsula. And now you have sanctions against Russia and nobody recognises Crimea as a part of Russia.


It sounds almost as smartass as Khrushchev :thumb001:

Sarmatian
08-21-2019, 05:54 AM
Comrade Pinko, there's a very good reason the world expects the Americans to be the ones that actually succeed at space colonies.

Your garbage incompetent leadership would run any country into the ground regardless of system.

There is only one thing the world expects from Americans is to get the fock out and and mind their own business.


And no one in the west cares about you got to offer. You really think anyone here gives a shit about your country's opinion on geopolitics? Let me know when you guys crack the top 10 world economies lel.

That's why you don't run the country and have no chance to be in charge of anything. Because people involved into geopolitics professionally listen to every word Russia leadership has to say. Today future of the world is decided by three figures: Trump, Putin and Jinping. The fact you are not aware of it is quite telling.


There's a reason why the west developed countries like Japan and South Korea. It was to show North Korea, Vietnam, China, and the whole Asian community as a whole that western liberal style democracies and economies were ideal and that they should adopt our system.

Thanks for admitting it was all for show and propaganda. Indeed these countries had no chances on their own.


Japan would pretty much be the only nation in the region that would 100% have our back in the case of war.

Japan is already in the process of switching allegiance. US will pull out eventually and then there are only two options to fill the void: Russia or China. But it's obvious to anyone with half a brain China is not really an option due to pretty ugly past between them. So Japs future is tied to Russia.

Finnish Swede
08-21-2019, 06:13 AM
Japan is already in the process of switching allegiance. US will pull out eventually and then there are only two options to fill the void: Russia or China. But it's obvious to anyone with half a brain China is not really an option due to pretty ugly past between them. So Japs future is tied to Russia.

What makes you so sure that Russian empire will stay in one piece .... forever? All the rest (which humans have created) have been destroyed ... sooner or later. Putin (and his follower) will have more than enough work to keep the country as it is. Again the last weeks have showed that ... and those should be pretty minor level matters. Leadership is still someway worried; the actions shows that. They know that the only thing which could ''threaten'' their positions is Russians own people/citizens; not any outsider factor or player.

BTW: Putin is in Helsinki today.

Sarmatian
08-21-2019, 07:08 AM
What makes you so sure that Russian empire will stay in one piece .... forever? All the rest (which humans have created) have been destroyed ... sooner or later. Putin (and his follower) will have more than enough work to keep the country as it is. Again the last weeks have showed that ... and those should be pretty minor level matters. Leadership is still someway worried; the actions shows that. They know that the only thing which could ''threaten'' their positions is Russians own people/citizens; not any outsider factor or player.

BTW: Putin is in Helsinki today.

Globalist project has reached its peak a decade ago and proven to be unable to maintain economic growth. In fact it's accumulated problems puts entire world at serious existential risk.

As solution the world is being divided into politically and economically independent zones each with its own leader. To sustain themselves and ensure further development these zones need to have certain population minimum.

One of such zones will be Eastern Eurasia. For the world to remain stable this territory needs a strong unified entity with number of satellites. Russia fits the role perfectly and there is no viable alternative to it.

Current issues inside Russia don't affect the bigger picture.

Arsen_
08-21-2019, 07:22 AM
Russia is not obliged to return anything to anyone just "за красивые глазки" as they say in Russia. But I think Russia may consider giving Kuril Islands to Japan under certain circumstances based on her own interests if she is offered a really good deal.

sean
08-21-2019, 07:23 AM
There is only one thing we russkies expect from Americans is to get the fock out and mind their own business.

Fixed.

Wishful thinking.


That's why you don't run the country and have no chance to be in charge of anything. Because people involved into geopolitics professionally listen to every word Russia leadership has to say. Today future of the world is decided by three figures: Trump, Putin and Jinping. The fact you are not aware of it is quite telling.

We buy NATO protection from America so we have a say in the matter. Your leadership saw the events in Kiev in 2014 as the beginning of a path that would end in Ukraine joining NATO a situation they would find as intolerable as the US would find Russia moving into Canada.

The more belligerent and bellicose Russia becomes the more it will draw the NATO countries back onto common ground. All of NATO military expenditure is 15x that of Russia and the European NATO budget is still 5x times that of Russia.


Thanks for admitting it was all for show and propaganda. Indeed these countries had no chances on their own.

And these countries are now richer than ex Warsaw Pact countries lel. You are welcome, comrade.


Japan is already in the process of switching allegiance. US will pull out eventually and then there are only two options to fill the void: Russia or China. But it's obvious to anyone with half a brain China is not really an option due to pretty ugly past between them. So Japs future is tied to Russia.

Japan was already highly developed, a former empire and a world power when US took them over. They spend absurd amount on their military already to police international waters and keep rogue states like Russia and Iran from fucking over everyone else. So Japan is not going anywhere.

The only reason Abe and Putin meet basically every year and then agree on further cooperation, investments and trade every single time because Russia wants Japan to be a key player in East Russian development.

Sarmatian
08-21-2019, 08:04 AM
Fixed.

Wishful thinking.

We buy NATO protection from America so we have a say in the matter. Your leadership saw the events in Kiev in 2014 as the beginning of a path that would end in Ukraine joining NATO a situation they would find as intolerable as the US would find Russia moving into Canada.

The more belligerent and bellicose Russia becomes the more it will draw the NATO countries back onto common ground. All of NATO military expenditure is 15x that of Russia and the European NATO budget is still 5x times that of Russia.

And these countries are now richer than ex Warsaw Pact countries lel. You are welcome, comrade.

Japan was already highly developed, a former empire and a world power when US took them over. They spend absurd amount on their military already to police international waters and keep rogue states like Russia and Iran from fucking over everyone else. So Japan is not going anywhere.

The only reason Abe and Putin meet basically every year and then agree on further cooperation, investments and trade every single time because Russia wants Japan to be a key player in East Russian development.

You're talking from perspective of globalist paradigm. It's past already. World has changed in last 3 years and will change even more. That change will have dramatic consequences for next few decades.

US has abandoned Ukraine. It's failed state now and more likely will be partitioned between Russia, Poland and Hungary.

Future of Europe is uncertain.

"These countries" richer by what standard exactly? By requirement to work 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week being a norm for both top management and plebs?

Calling Russia a rogue state is fascinating. Are you watching anything but CNN?

grecoroman
08-21-2019, 08:08 AM
Give back chechnya

sean
08-21-2019, 09:39 AM
You're talking from perspective of globalist paradigm. It's past already. World has changed in last 3 years and will change even more. That change will have dramatic consequences for next few decades.

Nope. A new pan-American alliance with America in the north and Brazil in the south is in the making with the US State Department's shift towards hiring Portuguese speakers.

The goal is to create a nationalist policy which punishes the rivals, as opposed to the globalism of Bush and Obama which enabled Russia and China to act with almost no restrictions (and ironically Bush's relationship with Putin made Iran stronger since Iran was backed by Russia).

China will never run the world, their economy is in even worse shape and would absolutely impload as soon as an embargo is placed.

Their economy revolves around building ghost towns and exporting cheap shit to the US.


US has abandoned Ukraine. It's failed state now and more likely will be partitioned between Russia, Poland and Hungary.

Want to know the real joke? When you slavshits dunk on each other (Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Serbian, Russian, etc) you could literally interchange any of them with each other and it wouldn't change anything lel.


Future of Europe is uncertain.

No country in Europe besides UK has any capability to counter Russian surface to surface ballistic missile or air defence missile threats. This would allow all NW European nations to work under a single unified HQ. Without the NATO, Russia would easily steamroll the continent. Europe belongs to us.


"These countries" richer by what standard exactly? By requirement to work 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week being a norm for both top management and plebs?

Rich enough to bone your women on a daily basis. Now chinks are catching up lel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahpZAXwHFMY


Calling Russia a rogue state is fascinating. Are you watching anything but CNN?

I don't watch TV. Russia is a cry bully that has nothing to offer it's neighbours but war and an African economy, thats why even fucking Kazakhstan feels closer to the west than to Russia. Putin has forever damaged Russia, your people are in a deceptively weak position with a population dropping 2% annually. Russia is done.

The world needs the west. The world needs a strong west capable of taking down any and all foreign rivals at the drop of a hat. You will not like what comes after us. You will not like a Chinese century. None of us will.

For this reason it is of utmost important to maintain Anglo global hegemony through any means. Period.


Give back chechnya

Chechnya is basically a state within a state.

Sarmatian
08-21-2019, 11:06 AM
Nope. A new pan-American alliance with America in the north and Brazil in the south is in the making with the US State Department's shift towards hiring Portuguese speakers.

The goal is to create a nationalist policy which punishes the rivals, as opposed to the globalism of Bush and Obama which enabled Russia and China to act with almost no restrictions (and ironically Bush's relationship with Putin made Iran stronger since Iran was backed by Russia).

Yes the US zone of influence will be limited to American continents.


China will never run the world, their economy is in even worse shape and would absolutely impload as soon as an embargo is placed.

Their economy revolves around building ghost towns and exporting cheap shit to the US.

Stop projecting your Anglo perception on others. China has no intention to run the world. Its economy is moving in predicted direction as planned under full control of Communist party. All challenges and changes were predicted. Measures were developed and being implemented now to address these challenges.


Want to know the real joke? When you slavshits dunk on each other (Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Serbian, Russian, etc) you could literally interchange any of them with each other and it wouldn't change anything lel.

Yeah all this bickering is centuries old. That's normal in Europe and many other places.


No country in Europe besides UK has any capability to counter Russian surface to surface ballistic missile or air defence missile threats. This would allow all NW European nations to work under a single unified HQ. Without the NATO, Russia would easily steamroll the continent. Europe belongs to us.

Why would Russia do that? What's the gain in it? That presumption of Russian threat is ridiculous. As I said you're living in the past.


I don't watch TV. Russia is a cry bully that has nothing to offer it's neighbours but war and an African economy, thats why even f*cking Kazakhstan feels closer to the west than to Russia. Putin has forever damaged Russia, your people are in a deceptively weak position with a population dropping 2% annually. Russia is done.

That's no more than your ignorant opinion.


The world needs the west. The world needs a strong west capable of taking down any and all foreign rivals at the drop of a hat. You will not like what comes after us. You will not like a Chinese century. None of us will.

For this reason it is of utmost important to maintain Anglo global hegemony through any means. Period.

The era of global West domination is over. And no, there will be no Chinese century either.

BTW I wouldn't give too much domination credit to Anglos. It was rather domination of banks. It peaked in 2008 and the system will be dismantled soon. None of us will like what comes next but none of us have power to avoid it either.

PAGANE
08-21-2019, 11:20 AM
What makes you so sure that Russian empire will stay in one piece .... forever? All the rest (which humans have created) have been destroyed ... sooner or later. Putin (and his follower) will have more than enough work to keep the country as it is. Again the last weeks have showed that ... and those should be pretty minor level matters. Leadership is still someway worried; the actions shows that. They know that the only thing which could ''threaten'' their positions is Russians own people/citizens; not any outsider factor or player.

BTW: Putin is in Helsinki today.

More threatened by cleavage and separation are the United States. You don't even have to dream of splitting and separating Russia, because if that happens, the vast natural resources of Siberia and the east will not be the possession of the western world, but of China or the creation of a huge Turan with a leader Turkey and Islam as a religion

Art23
08-21-2019, 04:17 PM
One of such zones will be Eastern Eurasia. For the world to remain stable this territory needs a strong unified entity with number of satellites. Russia fits the role perfectly and there is no viable alternative to it.


:lmao

Russia stands for corruption, poverty and degradation. Who would honestly wish to live in such country's influence zone? Nobody, including Eastern Europe.

Finnish Swede
08-21-2019, 04:18 PM
More threatened by cleavage and separation are the United States. You don't even have to dream of splitting and separating Russia, because if that happens, the vast natural resources of Siberia and the east will not be the
possession of the western world, but of China or the creation of a huge Turan with a leader Turkey and Islam as a religion

I'm not American. Hardly globalist either. I don't have that kind of ''interest'' against huge natural resources which Russia has. If it would be from me, those (and their full benefits) would belong to people originally living in those areas ... and not Russian's corrupted leaders and Oligarches in Moscow, in St. Petersburg or abroad.

This thread was not about USA ... but as you went and mention that. Maybe ...if Russians continue succeed to involve their internal issues.

I just hope that then next big BANG happens in Russia ... they would finally be ready to wash their own dirty laundry. Others have done that.

Óttar
08-21-2019, 04:20 PM
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/02/19/kuril-islands-population-overwhelmingly-opposes-possible-transfer-to-japan-a64551




All but a handful of Russians living on the disputed Kuril Islands in Far East Russia have overwhelmingly rejected the prospect of being transferred to Japan, a state-funded survey said Tuesday.

The dispute over the four islands, which Soviet troops captured from Japan in the final days of World War II, is so acrimonious that Moscow and Tokyo have not yet signed a peace treaty to mark the end of the war. A regional election commission said last year that 11,347 people over the age of 18 inhabit the island chain, which is known as the Kurils in Russia and the Northern Territories in Japan.

According to the state-funded VTsIOM pollster, 96 percent of Kuril residents said they oppose ceding the islands to Japan.

“People in the Kuril Islands sometimes lined up for our interviewers so that their position was taken into account,” Konstantin Abramov, the head of the VTsiOM foundation, said.

Nationwide, VTsIOM said 77 percent of Russian respondents voiced opposition to transferring the Kurils to Japan late last year. President Vladimir Putin said in January that any deal to end the territorial dispute with Japan would need public backing.
news

sean
08-21-2019, 04:27 PM
More threatened by cleavage and separation are the United States.

I am not threatened by your cleavage, I like big Balkan boobies.:wink

PAGANE
08-21-2019, 04:40 PM
I'm not American. Hardly globalist either. I don't have that kind of ''interest'' against huge natural resources which Russia has. If it would be from me, those (and their full benefits) would belong to people originally living in those areas ... and not Russian's corrupted leaders and Oligarches in Moscow, in St. Petersburg or abroad.

This thread was not about USA ... but as you went and mention that. Maybe ...if Russians continue succeed to involve their internal issues.

I just hope that then next big BANG happens in Russia ... they would finally be ready to wash their own dirty laundry. Others have done that.

The Russians have their problems like all other countries and peoples, but the Western people do not know the inner strength of the Russian people. The more they are pressed, the more they come together as one. Western sanctions do not work as Western countries would like. I go to Russia every year and see how these sanctions have intensified this to repair my own economy. So far, they have been buying Western products and are already starting to make their own. You remember what happened when they made the T34, whose prototype was on a German armored car. It is a large and powerful country and there is a nation that Westerners must learn to respect.

PAGANE
08-21-2019, 04:44 PM
I am not threatened by your cleavage, I like big Balkan boobies.:thumb001:

glad for you :) and peace is a lullaby

Finnish Swede
08-21-2019, 05:45 PM
The Russians have their problems like all other countries and peoples, but the Western people do not know the inner strength of the Russian people. The more they are pressed, the more they come together as one. Western sanctions do not work as Western countries would like. I go to Russia every year and see how these sanctions have intensified this to repair my own economy. So far, they have been buying Western products and are already starting to make their own. You remember what happened when they made the T34, whose prototype was on a German armored car. It is a large and powerful country and there is a nation that Westerners must learn to respect.

Are you now talking to me or some ''Western people''? I know that country well enough. Its history and present time.

If someone wants to respect .. they will need to earn that. It doesn't come automatically (no matter how ''proud'' the ethnic might be/feel internally) ... plus weights of history needs to discussed openly. Someway clean the table first.

If their economy doesn't develop in longer run and for example their pension schemes still needs some changes (one day) ... even Russians support might end to their present leaders. Younger generations might also differ from the present ones etc. Time will tell. Nothing is stable,

PaleoEuropean
08-21-2019, 05:48 PM
Yea Russia has no use for it it and they will still have port access to the Pacific, I wouldn't disagree with them selling it back and making some money or getting some benefit; Japan had to pay for their crimes and aggression.

Zeus
08-21-2019, 05:53 PM
I would usually just recommend a referendum, but since the population is so low that seems kind of silly in this case. I believe the island is historically part of Japan and was annexed by the Soviets after World War 2. So given that the Soviet claim seems to rest mostly on their military occupation of the islands during World War 2, I would not see a legitimate moral reason why Japan should be denied a right to the islands as of now.

Not a Cop
08-21-2019, 05:56 PM
Crimea has become a part of Ukraine following all legal procedures. Ukrainians helped to rebuild it after WW2. Then in 1991, when the USSR has fortunately ended, Russia signed all papers recognising Crimea as a part of Ukraine. Suddenly, in 2015, Russia has attacked Ukraine and occupied the peninsula. And now you have sanctions against Russia and nobody recognises Crimea as a part of Russia.

Karelia has become a part of Russia after Russians had attacked Finland in 1939. The shameful Winter War was for many decades banned from Russian history books. Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War


You seems to show incredile lack of education.

1. Ukraine became independets against the results of 1991 Soviet Union referendum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum), plus 1991 Ukrainian independence referendum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum) was done breaking the soviet laws.

2. Russians gave much more resourses dedicated to rebuilding the Ukraine than Ukraine did to Crimea.

3. Easten part of Karelia was russian since slavic colonisation in early middle ages. Western part became Russian after Treaty of Nystad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nystad), and became finnish after Lenin the cuck signed peace treaty with Mannerheim.

Not a Cop
08-21-2019, 06:00 PM
:lmao

Russia stands for corruption, poverty and degradation. Who would honestly wish to live in such country's influence zone? Nobody, including Eastern Europe.

Somehow after Ukraine left the Russian "infuence zone" it has only became more corrupted, poor and degraded.

Finnish Swede
08-21-2019, 06:10 PM
3. Easten part of Karelia was russian since slavic colonisation in early middle ages. Western part became Russian after Treaty of Nystad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nystad), and became finnish after Lenin the cuck signed peace treaty with Mannerheim.

You tend to give one kind of picture of that matter. If you don't mind I'll add something to that?

In that Western Karelia ... people who lived there since ancient times to 1939 were Finns ... not Russian. Not even Swedish (in any bigger scale). Treaty of Nystad? ... yes ... as by then little by little Sweden started to lost whole Finland to Russians. Still people who lived in area of Finland were Finns not Russians. Who have conquered it ... for some time ... means nothing. Same fits on Western Karelia. BTW: That Western Karelia was part of Grand Duchy of Finland .. Finns autonomous part in Russian Empire just like rest of Finland between 1809 - 1917 ... as Tsars knew where Western Karelia belongs (based on population and history). And same did Lenin. Unfortunately not lunatic Stalin.

Not a Cop
08-21-2019, 06:20 PM
You tend to give one kind of picture of that matter. If you don't mind I'll add something to that?

In that Western Karelia ... people who lived there since ancient times to 1939 were Finns ... not Russian. Not even Swedish (in any bigger scale). Treaty of Nystad? ... yes ... as by then little by little Sweden started to lost whole Finland to Russians. Still people who lived in area of Finland were Finns not Russians. Who have conquered it ... for some time ... means nothing. Same fits on Western Karelia. BTW: That Western Karelia was part of Grand Duchy of Finland .. Finns autonomous part of Russian Empire just like rest of Finland between 1809 - 1917 ... as Tsars knew where Western Karealia belongs (based on population and history). And same did Lenin. Unfortunately not lunatic Stalin.

Lenin was just a cuck, who failed to win Finnish civil war, not that i would like to see any other ethnicity fall under communism, but it's just the fact.

As for to whom Finland belonged under the Russian Empire we both know that it were Swedes, Finns had very little to say during that period.

Finnish Swede
08-21-2019, 06:33 PM
Lenin was just a cuck Your opinion. I'm not interest of talking about opinion.



As for to whom Finland belonged under the Russian Empire we both know that it were Swedes, Finns had very little to say during that period.
? Anyway I don't see any connection to Western Karelia.

I still visit here and so does Harkonnen (maybe both of us less than earlier, but still) => you need to bit more careful :)

Bye.

sean
08-22-2019, 01:25 AM
Yes the US zone of influence will be limited to American continents.

Nope. Russia or China can't influence South America or other places on the other side of the planet, closer to home in places like North America, Europe and Oceania at best they can have a few spies or provide loans to their diasporas to buy up real estate, on Asia they have power but their neighbours (minus Japan and Korea) are third world nations at best. Finally anyone can steamroll Africa, don’t need a particularly strong armed forces to do that


Stop projecting your Anglo perception on others. China has no intention to run the world. Its economy is moving in predicted direction as planned under full control of Communist party. All challenges and changes were predicted. Measures were developed and being implemented now to address these challenges.

China's reported growth is the lowest it's been in decades. Their economy is highly dependent on exports and there isn't enough demand in the world to fill the gap left by the American economy. More importantly, however, is the fact that they are highly dependent on American imports for their higher value chain products. What you're seeing now is a decoupling of Chinese and American economies that will be a mortal wound to China's attempts to build a domestically driven economy.

China is a house of cards, you can't run a society based on that much oppression of the average person forever. It will not work in the long run, wait and see.


Yeah all this bickering is centuries old. That's normal in Europe and many other places.

Nope, one could actually see it even on this very board. We have enough slavshits on this board and in real life screeching endlessly, they screech autistically about others being subhuman, while simultaneously acting like animal cunts of the highest order the entire time.

Imagine having these animals (don't even mention RuskiStan Pyderation) getting same vote-veto rights as us lel.


Why would Russia do that? What's the gain in it? That presumption of Russian threat is ridiculous. As I said you're living in the past.

Putin has been threatening the West with nuclear annihilation for a long time now.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/threatening-nuclear-weapons-syria-putins-attempt-get-russia-treated-like-superpower-again-1532600

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11886639/Russia-threatens-US-with-nuclear-arms-counter-measures.html

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/putin-threatens-america-with-nuclear-annihilation/

Putin made it clear that freedom and liberty are a threat to his authoritarian kakistocracy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48798875


The era of global West domination is over.

Dream on.


BTW I wouldn't give too much domination credit to Anglos. It was rather domination of banks. It peaked in 2008 and the system will be dismantled soon. None of us will like what comes next but none of us have power to avoid it either.

Comrade Boris, I've been hearing all this kind of shit for the past 13 years since I was a little boy, and none of this economic shit ever results in a happening. I was in primary school when everyone was saying we needed to prepare because the Great Recession was the end of civilisation. I was in high school when everyone wigged out over the PIIGS debt crisis and saying Europe would become a Mad Max hellhole as the EU collapsed. I was told in 2015 that the Chinese slowdown would cause a domino effect resulting the US collapsing. Now I'm being told that Deutsche Bank running into problems is a reason why we should all start forming Amish societies.

Nothing matters until you have the economy working. You can be right wing and socially permissive as well as left wing and socially authoritarian. If your economy can't withstand your central banking raising interest rates by 1%, you’re not in good shape.

For your beloved China that's an entirely realistic scenario. They're more over credited than any economy in history by orders of magnitude. A banking crisis in China would translate into total economic catastrophe rather quickly.

Sarmatian
08-22-2019, 05:57 AM
:lmao

Russia stands for corruption, poverty and degradation. Who would honestly wish to live in such country's influence zone? Nobody, including Eastern Europe.

That's really funny. When was the last time Ukrainian president was considered seriously in international negotiations?

Sarmatian
08-22-2019, 07:19 AM
Nope. Russia or China can't influence South America or other places on the other side of the planet...

What are you on about? Where did you see me claiming Russia or China willing to influence anyone?


China's reported growth is the lowest it's been in decades. Their economy is highly dependent on exports and there isn't enough demand in the world to fill the gap left by the American economy. More importantly, however, is the fact that they are highly dependent on American imports for their higher value chain products. What you're seeing now is a decoupling of Chinese and American economies that will be a mortal wound to China's attempts to build a domestically driven economy.

As expected of ignorant boy you have no idea how China is being run and what is it capable of. Currently it is integrated into world economy but it could fully shut all contacts with outside world and still run quite decently. It won't grow much in isolation for sure but it will be able to sustain itself.

China is totally different animal and has been around for thousands of years. Don't worry too much, it has a number of tricks up its sleeve to deal with all kinds of situations.


China is a house of cards, you can't run a society based on that much oppression of the average person forever. It will not work in the long run, wait and see.

You sure can on even more oppression. Slavery was a stable thing for a few thousands years.


Nope, one could actually see it even on this very board.

Judging nations by interwebs. Fascinating stupidity.


Putin has been threatening the West with nuclear annihilation for a long time now.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/threatening-nuclear-weapons-syria-putins-attempt-get-russia-treated-like-superpower-again-1532600

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11886639/Russia-threatens-US-with-nuclear-arms-counter-measures.html

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/putin-threatens-america-with-nuclear-annihilation/

If you perceive all that as a threat that's your problem. The threat of nuclear annihilation exists since 1950's. If you wasn't aware of it that's just another sign of ignorance.


Putin made it clear that freedom and liberty are a threat to his authoritarian kakistocracy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48798875

That's actually funny. Do you understand difference between freedom and liberalism? Why are you claiming things that has never happened in the first place? Why are you lying?


Dream on.

Comrade Boris, I've been hearing all this kind of shit for the past 13 years since I was a little boy, and none of this economic shit ever results in a happening. I was in primary school when everyone was saying we needed to prepare because the Great Recession was the end of civilisation. I was in high school when everyone wigged out over the PIIGS debt crisis and saying Europe would become a Mad Max hellhole as the EU collapsed. I was told in 2015 that the Chinese slowdown would cause a domino effect resulting the US collapsing. Now I'm being told that Deutsche Bank running into problems is a reason why we should all start forming Amish societies.

Nothing matters until you have the economy working. You can be right wing and socially permissive as well as left wing and socially authoritarian. If your economy can't withstand your central banking raising interest rates by 1%, you’re not in good shape.

I understand you're too young and impatient, you want all the answers now. But there are processes that take decades to unfold and they have so many variables in the equation it's impossible to say exactly when and how it will happen. Much of what happening now has been predicted by Marx in 19th century. Recession, consumerism, globalization, growth of monopolies, diminishing of profits. Most of that only became evident in last 30 years.

So we're approaching another even bigger recession. Banks can't issue cheaper loans anymore, average US household debt is 120% of annual income and growing. As people cannot afford to buy as much consumption will drop in mass which will lead to bankruptcies with people loosing jobs and dropping their spending even further and so circle will move on and on. Some estimates suggest economy drop by ~60%. The Great Recession of 1930's was about 40%.

The main drop will happen in banking sector. From current 50% of its share in national GDP it will drop to normal 5% where it was before Bretton Woods. Trump seems to have made decision already to ditch banks and revive real sector. It will come at great cost but will allow to sustain the country on the long run.

Give it another 10 years and you'll 'enjoy' fruits if this recession.


For your beloved China that's an entirely realistic scenario. They're more over credited than any economy in history by orders of magnitude. A banking crisis in China would translate into total economic catastrophe rather quickly.

China is not my and definitely far from beloved. I just happen to know people who know about it more than both of us combined ever will. China used worlds' economy to rise, it will walk on its own from now. Rules of Western civilization doesn't apply to it.

PS You inclination towards use of derogatory made up words in pathetic attempts to offend your opponent only manifest your lack of intellectual capacity for keeping relevant conversation.

Sarmatian
08-22-2019, 07:27 AM
You tend to give one kind of picture of that matter. If you don't mind I'll add something to that?

In that Western Karelia ... people who lived there since ancient times to 1939 were Finns ... not Russian. Not even Swedish (in any bigger scale). Treaty of Nystad? ... yes ... as by then little by little Sweden started to lost whole Finland to Russians. Still people who lived in area of Finland were Finns not Russians. Who have conquered it ... for some time ... means nothing. Same fits on Western Karelia. BTW: That Western Karelia was part of Grand Duchy of Finland .. Finns autonomous part in Russian Empire just like rest of Finland between 1809 - 1917 ... as Tsars knew where Western Karelia belongs (based on population and history). And same did Lenin. Unfortunately not lunatic Stalin.

I'll tel you more.

At some point Finnish speaking tribes populated areas as far down as Moscow and to the East along Volga all the way to Bulgar and beyond. Does that mean all that land should be part of Finland now?

Finnish Swede
08-22-2019, 07:43 AM
I'll tel you more.

At some point Finnish speaking tribes populated areas as far down as Moscow and to the East along Volga all the way to Bulgar and beyond. Does that mean all that land should be part of Finland now?

Timeline is bit different ("my friend") but as you rose that on the table, and as slavics took those areas with force...you tell me?
Nah, Western Karelia (+ Salla, + Petsamo, + some island in Gulf of Finland ...
you know which?) would be just enough for Finland. But of course I would not have anything against to have smaller at least someway Finno-Ugric country as a neighbour. That would be much less aggressive option.

PS: It was "comic" to follow Putin's media interview yesterday. I'm sure you know why...if not...think about culture differencies between Finns and Russians.

Art23
08-22-2019, 04:12 PM
Somehow after Ukraine left the Russian "infuence zone" it has only became more corrupted, poor and degraded.

Not somehow. Ukraine is at war with Russia in the Donbas region. The war costs a lot to Ukraine - it has considerably lowered not only GDP, but also investments and so on.
On the other hand, countries which have left the Russian influence zone some decades ago - Poland, Hungary, Baltic States, etc - are doing so much better than Russia, having much higher salaries and quality of life. If only Ukraine could cut ties to Russia earlier!

Rumata
08-22-2019, 04:25 PM
^ Breaking is not enough to prosper, lol. One has to create too.

Crimean
08-23-2019, 12:20 AM
I wrote this for a long time, do not judge strictly for mistakes:).

Russia will not give up the Kuril Islands for several reasons.
1. For ethical and reputational reasons.
The victory of Soviet Russia over imperial Japan was not just an outstanding event, but also a revenge for the previous conflict. In a speech of the USSR Supreme Commander-in-Chief from 1945, in an official address to the people, Stalin described this fact as follows: "the people of the old generation have been waiting for this day for a long time, and finally, the shame of defeat in the Russo-Japanese war, the black spot on state history is washed away."

In 1956, a final declaration was made, which has since become the main basis for all current Japanese claims and the Kremlin’s headache. It is noteworthy that it stemmed from the same root from which the entire recent situation had arisen with the need to return the Crimea peninsula ...

By that time, instead of an authoritative and respected person around the world, Nikita Khrushchev came to power, who began to distribute "gifts" to all the sponsors who chose him. One of these personal "gestures" of the new leader was the transfer of the Crimean peninsula from the subordination of the RSFSR to the hands of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, the second - a statement on the conclusion of a peace treaty with Japan, on unfavorable conditions.

In the agreement, it was spelled out by the hands of the Americans that the number of the Kuril Islands torn away from Japan following the Second World War was not specifically determined. Later, this allowed the Japanese to say that, according to the agreement, Japan abandoned an indefinite number of islands in favor of a third force, however, since it does not indicate to whom exactly they are going as a result of the conflict and we face the juridical paradox here.

And therefore, they introduce a new geographical term and call all the islands that departed from it - "Northern Territories". Since it is not determined in whose favor these lands were transferred, by the right of the previous owner they remain Japanese for Japan. For the most part, this was an explanation for domestic use, but this is precisely how the Americans supported an element of hostility against the Soviets in Japan and thus did not allow Tokyo and Moscow to come closer together.

It is not difficult to guess that, taking advantage of the talent of the new leader of the USSR, the USA immediately transferred to Japan the “correct” list of requirements for the USSR, and negotiations were proposed to be held directly in London. Preparing for a long intrigue and a difficult game, the Anglo-Saxons were waiting for a diplomatic battle, but instead everything went completely wrong. Right in the course of the “battle” for the delegation from Moscow, Khrushchev sent a personal order to immediately agree to transfer the two islands to Japan, if the result is a peace treaty.

In other words, while Soviet diplomats were subtly appealing with promises of assistance for Japan to join the UN, return convicts, abandon all reparations in favor of our country, and successfully promoted Tokyo to dialogue, Khrushchev made another personal “move”. As a result, the delegation had no choice but to sign precisely this version of the declaration, which stated that Soviet Russia was obliged to transfer Habomai and Shikotan to Japan, but only after the conclusion of a peace treaty.

Ironically, the United States saved the country from small treason. The warming in relations between Japan and the USSR was extremely unprofitable for the Americans, and therefore the Japanese were forbidden to implement it. In fact, it was Washington that made Tokyo refuse to implement the declaration, which had already been signed and ratified by both Japan and Moscow. Today, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is trying to enter the same door a second time, but fortunately, Russia's approach has changed radically.

In addition, the rejection of sovereignty over part of the Russian territories suffers huge economic losses. So, since the signing of the declaration in 1956, for over 60 years lots of significant changes have taken place in International Law. Including, in 1977, a clause on 200-mile economic zones was introduced. Since then, the return of any of the Kuril Islands means the automatic transfer of huge nearby water areas.

And if we take into account that in fact we are not talking about two symbolic islands, but about a separate Shikotan island with an area of ​​225 square kilometers and 19 small islands of the “Habomai archipelago” with 5 cliffs and a total area of ​​100 square meters. km., then the exclusion zones, counted from the extreme points of these territories, will occupy a colossal space - they will turn into personal economic zones of Japan, instead of Russian ones. And this despite the fact that the water area around the Kuril ridge is literally crammed with all kinds of resources and minerals, and in addition, it is a defense line.

2. Strategic and military reasons.
The Kuril Islands are a key pillar of Russia's defense against the American Pacific Fleet, while the strait between them and the mainland is its strategic asset. It is no coincidence that, contrary to all the indignation of Japan and the USA, two years earlier the unique Ball and Bastion anti-naval defense systems were “housed” on them, aimed at the ships of the US 7th Fleet.

In addition, the Kuril Islands are a “barrier” at the entrance to the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, while the transfer of any of them is the key to this “door”. As long as Russia owns all the islands of the Kuril Ridge, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk is considered the inland sea of ​​Russia, when any of them are transferred to Japan, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk will be given international status, which means it will need to be divided and opened. In addition, the Kuril belonging to anyone else will automatically make the exit of the ships of the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Federation a big problem. Just like the problem for another fleet of our country is the Bosporus and Dardanelles, which allow NATO to create problems for the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

In addition, do not forget about internal causes. The transfer of some of the islands to Japan in the political sense will mean for the President of Russia a direct path to the disintegration of the country, while until then, Russia's foreign policy has always been based on integration and purposeful expansion of influence. In domestic politics, where the power of the head of state is legislatively, constitutionally, and apparatusively limited by the capabilities of other functionaries, there really were disintegration actions, but in the external arena, where the president’s power is almost absolute, there is definitely not.