Catalonia to hold independence vote.

[Lluna Plena]

https://www.ft.com/content/91c176e6-92e2-11e7-bdfa-eda243196c2c

The Spanish government has accused the Catalan parliament of committing a “constitutional and democratic atrocity”. So, what is the meaning of democracy?? Democracy means nothing if we don't have the right to vote. :banghead:

[Potentia]

Oh, Lordy, here we go.

You damn Euros and your separatist movements. xD

[Laberia]

Oh, Lordy, here we go.

You damn Euros and your separatist movements. xD

https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i-w600/keep-calm-and-free-catalonia-13.jpg

[Potentia]

...

Meh, it's only Catalonia.

Besides, you're only supporting Catalonian Independence to spite the Spaniards here.

[Laberia]

Meh, it's only Catalonia.

Besides, you're only supporting Catalonian Independence to spite the Spaniards here.

https://images.stockfreeimages.com/470/sfi/free_4700408.jpg

[Potentia]

...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Flag_map_of_Spain.svg/960px-Flag_map_of_Spain.svg.png

[Ilma]

I am a regionalist and do support any euro people willing their freedom or in that case their independancy.

I wish them to get what they want !

[Laberia]

https://www.ft.com/content/91c176e6-92e2-11e7-bdfa-eda243196c2c

The Spanish government has accused the Catalan parliament of committing a “constitutional and democratic atrocity”. So, what is the meaning of democracy?? Democracy means nothing if we don't have the right to vote. :banghead:

http://data.whicdn.com/images/136496195/large.jpg

[Laberia]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Flag_map_of_Spain.svg/960px-Flag_map_of_Spain.svg.png

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5c/62/a0/5c62a0be7df03c46e4c858faa8dc5b6e.jpg
Who destroyed this beautiful city?

[Potentia]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5c/62/a0/5c62a0be7df03c46e4c858faa8dc5b6e.jpg
Who destroyed this beautiful city?

My ancestors. xD

[Laberia]

My ancestors. xD

Your ancestors constructed this city. Spaniards destroyed it.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/files/2013/09/Finger-spain.png
http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/083e916ecea046239e86ddc4ad539548/anti-spanish-placard-national-catalonia-day-barcelona-spain-deegdb.jpg

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Oh, Lordy, here we go.

You damn Euros and your separatist movements. xD

Catalonia deserve

it's a unique and own culture and people

also with Balearic Islands and Roussillon/Rosselló

[Potentia]

Your ancestors constructed this city. Spaniards destroyed it.


Yes, my ancestors did build that city. And, my other ancestors did destroy it.

[Potentia]

Catalonia deserve

it's a unique and own culture and people

also with Balearic Islands and Roussillon/Rosselló

Not really.

Spain is a nation of nations. Galicia. Navarra. Leon. Castile. Andalusia. Valencia. Catalonia. Aragon. Asturias.

Why should Catalonia get special privileges?

[Antimage]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/catalan-parliament-paves-independence-vote-49646053

[Laberia]

Not really.

Spain is a nation of nations. Galicia. Navarra. Leon. Castile. Andalusia. Valencia. Catalonia. Aragon. Asturias.

Why should Catalonia get special privileges?

Than give to all of them the same status and make Spain a federation.

[Cristiano viejo]

Separatists continue crying and dreaming hehe

Enjoy your 500.000 Muslims in the meantime.

[MinervaItalica]

Just give them independence.

[Autrigón]

Honestly I don't have any problem if Catalonia wants to make a referendum of independence, but I think a referendum is a very serious issue and need more planification and more analysis. It's not a question to organize it just in a few months.

[Kriptc06]

Honestly I don't have any problem if Catalonia wants to make a referendum of independence, but I think a referendum is a very serious issue and need more planification and more analysis. It's not a question to organize just in a few months.

in the hypothesis of that happening, Catalonya would be out of the EU, and likely be 'born' with debt. and would have to organise their law system and applicable or not treaties.. would be a mess for years..

[wvwvw]

Secession would benefit neither Catalonia nor the rest of Spain.

[Yehiel]

Separatists continue crying and dreaming hehe

Enjoy your 500.000 Muslims in the meantime.

Dont worry we and the moors are coming back for Andalusia ;)

[Cristiano viejo]

Just give them independence.

Just give Venetians, Sicilians etc the independence.

[wvwvw]

Just give Venetians, Sicilians etc the independence.

How could you leave out Sardinians ;)

[Cristiano viejo]

Secession would benefit neither Catalonia nor the rest of Spain.
I should be pro-Catalonian secession, so 500.000 Muslims would remain in another country already and fuck Catalonia itself.


Dont worry we and the moors are coming back for Andalusia ;)
The same for Andalusia, fuck it.


How could you leave out Sardinians ;)

Sorry, sorry and thousand times sorry :cool:

[MinervaItalica]

Just give Venetians, Sicilians etc the independence.

Sorry but those you mentioned don't have the requirements like Catalonia with Spain...

The ones we have (which it's been awhile since activity) copied the ones you have in your country and Scotland without own basis.

[Cristiano viejo]

Sorry but those you mentioned don't have the requirements like Catalonia with Spain...

How not? Catalonians are pseudo-Andalusians ethnically speaking and it never was a country or something similar. Sardinia was, Venetia was, damn even Naples was.

[Yehiel]

I should be pro-Catalonian secession, so 500.000 Muslims would remain in another country already and fuck Catalonia itself.


The same for Andalusia, fuck it.



Sorry, sorry and thousand times sorry :cool:

Man you are no fun anymore back then you would get super triggered by that statement haha

[MinervaItalica]

How not? Catalonians are pseudo-Andalusians ethnically speaking and it never was a country or something similar. Sardinia was, Venetia was, damn even Naples was.

The only who can split are the German speaking people in Alto Adige but it will pretty unlikely considering they have privileges in Italy, privileges that they wouldn't have in Austria :laugh:

Also secessionist referendums are forbidden by law in Italy.

[Cristiano viejo]

The only who can split are the Germans in Alto Adige but it will pretty unlikely considering they have privileges in Italy, privileges that they wouldn't have in Austria :laugh:

Oh, I also forgot these people... along Slovenians and Croatians in East "Italy"...

[MinervaItalica]

Oh, I also forgot these people... along Slovenians and Croatians in East "Italy"...

Those can't split either, at most they can return to Slovenia or Croatia because Trieste is and is always been overwhelming Italian.

German speaking in Alto Adige can also return to Austria but, as i said, they won't likely do that...

[Tietar]

Catalonia deserve

it's a unique and own culture and people

also with Balearic Islands and Roussillon/Rosselló

hahahaha, Catalonia is just a political border, a county emerged at the beginning of the reconquest, was not even a kingdom

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IERt3aFcpho/UyM2s0BD74I/AAAAAAAAHIo/BCnShT66lec/s1600/image_gallery+%25281%2529.jpg

And with the same political crap now claim to create a nation?

It's ridiculous, but the fun thing is that a lot of people think seriously that it's a nation.

[Cristiano viejo]

It's ridiculous, but the fun thing is that a lot of people think seriously that it's a nation.

Because their eternal propaganda...

[Arjana]

I am neither pro or against the secession of catalonia from Spain.

Both parties have right in their arguments.

However one thing is for sure, that the economy of Spain will go down 30% since catalonia is the richest region.

[B01AB20]

More than half of catalonian population voted for NOT independists parties, and according to recent surveys only 44% want independence.
But nobody seems to care about what more than half of catalonians want, and catalonian indepentists less than anyone else, they are acting VERY sectarian against who are against their views, the have the abosulte truth about everyting, they shit in democracy and decency every day.
Summarizing, they're even worse than spanish goverment of corrupts right-wingers.

Curious concept of democracy that some people have here...

[Cristiano viejo]

I am neither pro or against the secession of catalonia from Spain.

Both parties have right in their arguments.

However one thing is for sure, that the economy of Spain will go down 30% since catalonia is the richest region.
You have said 30% as you could have said 57,41...

Catalonia is not the richest region. Madrid, Navarra, Vascongadas are the richest. And probably, I would have to check, Balearic Islands and Comunidad Valencia are richest than Catalonia.

Stop with the lies and stupid myths.

[Lluna Plena]

https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i-w600/keep-calm-and-free-catalonia-13.jpg

Thank you, Laberia. :)

[Lluna Plena]

67329

[alnortedelsur]

https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i-w600/keep-calm-and-free-catalonia-13.jpg

Shut the fuck up. That's not of your business.

[Laberia]

Shut the fuck up. That's not of your business.

Shut the fuck up you, because you are not even an European and i don't know what the fuck are you doing here.

[alnortedelsur]

More than half of catalonian population voted for NOT independists parties, and according to recent surveys only 44% want independence.
But nobody seems to care about what more than half of catalonians want, and catalonian indepentists less than anyone else, they are acting VERY sectarian against who are against their views, the have the abosulte truth about everyting, they shit in democracy and decency every day.
Summarizing, they're even worse than spanish goverment of corrupts right-wingers.

Curious concept of democracy that some people have here...

They should be deported to a very small island and be independent in there, and stop breaking the balls of the rest of Spaniards (including more than half of Catalans) who don't want the Catalonian independence.

[alnortedelsur]

Shut the fuck up you, because you are not even an European and i don't know what the fuck are you doing here.

I have the right to give my opinion about Spanish issues a thousand times more than you. I am mostly Spanish descent (including my mom being full Spanish from Spain), and I am Spanish citizen and you're not.

[Laberia]

I have the right to give my opinion about Spanish issues a thousand times more than you. I am mostly Spanish descent (including my mom being full Spanish from Spain), and I am Spanish citizen and you're not.

I don't give a shit of what you are. Here we are in a forum and nobody have the right to stop me to post here. Get out of here and start to talk about Maduro. You have nothing to do here in an European forum.

[alnortedelsur]

I don't give a shit of what you are. Here we are in a forum and nobody have the right to stop me to post here. Get out of here and start to talk about Maduro. You have nothing to do here in an European forum.

You don't have any right to stop me from posting on here either. I am European citizen, and have all the right to be on here, for being the continent where my mom is from, and where most of my racial background is from, whether you like it or not. Aside that this is a forum open to everyone.

And I am Spanish citizen and you are not.

[Laberia]

You don't have any right to stop me from posting on here either. I am European citizen, and have all the right to be on here, for being the continent where my mom is from, and where most of my racial background is from, whether you like it or not. Aside that this is a forum open to everyone.

And I am Spanish citizen and you are not.

Shut up.

[alnortedelsur]

Shut up.

You don't shut me up. And you're not Spanish.

[alnortedelsur]

I am a regionalist and do support any euro people willing their freedom or in that case their independancy.

I wish them to get what they want !

A minority of pro-independents want to impose their will to a majority who don't want it. And they want to insist on it over and over.

What about the freedom of those who want a strong and united Spain (including many Catalans who don't want the independence)??

I didn't expect that from you :picard1:

[Laberia]

You don't shut me up. And you're not Spanish.


https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i-w600/keep-calm-and-free-catalonia-13.jpg

[Laberia]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=67329&d=1504846523
I know an another quote:

… What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
Source:
Letter to William Stephens Smith (13 November 1787), quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy

[Arjana]

You have said 30% as you could have said 57,41...

Catalonia is not the richest region. Madrid, Navarra, Vascongadas are the richest. And probably, I would have to check, Balearic Islands and Comunidad Valencia are richest than Catalonia.

Stop with the lies and stupid myths.

I think you live in your own myth , not me.

In every economical report catalonia is reported as the most developed region of the state of Spain with the higher GDP also.

Thus it attracts more immigrants also.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Instability in the region would be bad for Europe, I am assuming it would have a big impact on the financial markets. For Portugal would be bad as well since Spain is one of our most important economic partners.

[Cristiano viejo]

Shut the fuck up you, because you are not even an European and i don't know what the fuck are you doing here.
hahaha said the Spanish boy :lol:


I think you live in your own myth , not me.

In every economical report catalonia is reported as the most developed region of the state of Spain with the higher GDP also.

Thus it attracts more immigrants also.

:picard1:
Catalonia is not only the non-richest Spanish region but the most indebted one :thumb001:

[Laberia]

hahaha said the Spanish boy :lol:


Spanish boy to me? Excuse me, why you offend me? My discussion is serious. You can`t call me Spanish because, first i am not gypsy. And second i find vomitable hearing the word incest.

[Cristiano viejo]

Spanish boy to me? Excuse me, why you offend me? My discussion is serious. You can`t call me Spanish because, first i am not gypsy.
Yes, you are, Gypsy-Turk to be exact.


And second i find vomitable hearing the word incest.
Lie, Albanians are the most inbreed people in "Europe" and it is very well documented. The few amount of Albanian surnames also indicates it.

[EuropeanVlachSon]

If Catalonia will become an indepedent state, they will become a shithole. Why?
They will dont be in EU
The salaries and pensios are paid by Spain, not by Catalonia government,
Spain will dont collaborate with them, so they will be fucked.
Many companies will leave Catalonia
The whole Spain built Catalonia infrastracture and Barcelona touristic image (Barcelona most ovverated city), so its not even moral.



More than half of catalonian population voted for NOT independists parties, and according to recent surveys only 44% want independence.
But nobody seems to care about what more than half of catalonians want, and catalonian indepentists less than anyone else, they are acting VERY sectarian against who are against their views, the have the abosulte truth about everyting, they shit in democracy and decency every day.
Summarizing, they're even worse than spanish goverment of corrupts right-wingers.

Curious concept of democracy that some people have here...


Well, now the atmosphere became more "violent" so this statistics can change in the favour of indepentists easily.

[Cristiano viejo]

If Catalonia will become an indepedent state, they will become a shithole. Why?
They will dont be in EU
The salaries and pensios are paid by Spain, not by Catalonia government,
Spain will dont collaborate with them, so they will be fucked.
Many companies will leave Catalonia
The whole Spain built Catalonia infrastracture and Barcelona touristic image (Barcelona most ovverated city), so its not even moral.

There are already DOZENS of multicompanies which are leaving Catalonia, many of them foreigners. They are being installed in Madrid mainly.

[Ilma]

http://katehon.com/sites/default/files/1447621520_people-take-streets-banner-reading-independence-during-protest-greater-autonomy-catalonia.jpg

One million Catalans march for independence on region's national day

"Up to 1 million Catalans have gathered in Barcelona to call for independence less than three weeks before the region is due to hold a bitterly divisive vote on breaking away from Spain."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/catalonia-barcelona-independence-national-day-diada

[Cristiano viejo]

http://katehon.com/sites/default/files/1447621520_people-take-streets-banner-reading-independence-during-protest-greater-autonomy-catalonia.jpg

One million Catalans march for independence on region's national day

"Up to 1 million Catalans have gathered in Barcelona to call for independence less than three weeks before the region is due to hold a bitterly divisive vote on breaking away from Spain."

They always claim they have been 1 million... and then the agency risponsable of that says 200.000 :lol:

[B01AB20]

More than half of catalonian population voted for NOT independists parties, and according to recent surveys only 44% want independence.
But nobody seems to care about what more than half of catalonians want, and catalonian indepentists less than anyone else, they are acting VERY sectarian against who are against their views, the have the abosulte truth about everyting, they shit in democracy and decency every day.
Summarizing, they're even worse than spanish goverment of corrupts right-wingers.

Curious concept of democracy that some people have here...


I'm not independist, but if I quote myself and I change some words and ideas, well, I recognize this is true as well.


Almost half of catalonian population voted for independists parties, and according to recent surveys 44% want independence.
But nobody seems to care about what almost half of catalonians want, and central goverment of Madrid less than anyone else, they are acting VERY sectarian against who are against their views, the have the abosulte truth about everyting, they shit in democracy and decency every day.
Summarizing, they're even worse than catalan goverment of corrupts anf fanatics.

The situation is complicated and it seems it will not become better in quite a while.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Vai haver mesmo referendo? O Tribunal Constitucional de Espanha decidiu suspender a lei e todos os decretos que suportam o referendo sobre a independência da Catalunha.

[B01AB20]

Vai haver mesmo referendo? O Tribunal Constitucional de Espanha decidiu suspender a lei e todos os decretos que suportam o referendo sobre a independência da Catalunha.

Bueno, el gobierno catalán dice que habrá referendum cueste lo que cueste y desprecian las leyes y tribunales españoles, el gobierno de Madrid dice que NO habrá referendum, cueste lo que cueste.

Desde luego si hay referendum no será uno normal y con garantias democráticas mínimas para ser tomado muy en serio.
Pero si gana el SI, cosa mas que segura porque solo los indepes irán a votar, a los indepes les importará muy poco todo lo demás y dirán que han ganado, aunque solo vote un 20% del censo electoral.

[Cristiano viejo]

I'm not independist, but if I quote myself and I change some words and ideas, well, I recognize this is true as well.


Almost half of catalonian population voted for independists parties, and according to recent surveys 44% want independence.
But nobody seems to care about what almost half of catalonians want, and central goverment of Madrid less than anyone else, they are acting VERY sectarian against who are against their views, the have the abosulte truth about everyting, they shit in democracy and decency every day.
Summarizing, they're even worse than catalan goverment of corrupts anf fanatics.

The situation is complicated and it seems it will not become better in quite a while.

And what do you want they do since Madrid? they can not yield nor an apex against the separatas :noidea:
I am not pepero but they are acting correctly. If any they are a bit cowards for my taste, I would shoot all these independentists.

Today I knew the grandmother of Puigdemont is Andalusian... another charnego al aparato :picard1:
What a bunch of retardeds & self-haters, these separatas...

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

And what do you want they do since Madrid? they can not yield nor an apex against the separatas :noidea:
I am not pepero but they are acting correctly. If any they are a bit cowards for my taste, I would shoot all these independentists.

Today I knew the grandmother of Puigdemont is Andalusian... another charnego al aparato :picard1:
What a bunch of retardeds & self-haters, these separatas...

How are they are self haters? I don't care if Catalunya becomes independent but personally I find it foolish and not authentic. There was barely any talk of independence prior to the economic difficulties in Spain. Even during Franco's era there wasn't a struggle for independence unlike in the Basque lands. It's amusing that talk of separatism has pretty much died down in the Basque lands, while it has risen in Catalunya. The motivation is different. Catalan politicians (many of whom aren't even fully Catalan or even ethnically Catalan at all) are trying to shift the economic woes away from themselves towards Madrid. They're looking for a scapegoat to draw attention away from themselves.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

I highly recommend Henry Kamen's books. Although I haven't read the one mentioned here.


The famous historian Henry Kamen warns of the falsification of the history of Catalonia and published a new book called "Spain and Catalonia. History of a passion', which criticizes the "falsification of history" that, in his view, presented the Catalan separatists, including CiU and ERC, to defend the independence of Catalonia and the sovereignty process. He says:

"If the separatists offer lies, as a simple historian I examine the material" and conclude that "there is a manipulation of facts in favour of separatism"

Kamen said that "there is no historical basis to provide support to the separation" and that "the historical context is being distorted by the Catalan government."

One of the episodes that have been manipulated is, in his opinion, the War of Succession, as some say that "Catalonia was crushed" and went into "economic misery" after September 11, 1714, date of the surrender of Barcelona.

Catalonia was not crushed in 1714. However, Catalonia "remained an important, prosperous and thriving region, Spain's richest territory," stressed Kamen, who considers "almost impossible" to support with evidence the historical argument of "plundering" of Catalonia from Spain.

Also, in his book he rejects the version according to which the Spanish State attacked the people of Catalonia-which rebelled against it-and ended abolishing its democratic laws and imposing a regime of terror. Kamen doubts that a majority of Catalans rose against Felipe V and indicates that it was Barcelona itself that caused the abolition of the “Catalan institutions” as well as stating that in 1714 the rebels were "strong supporters of the unity of Spain". But to be more precise and clarify that there were no parliamentary institutions, as we know today that represented the people, just institutions that represented the rich and privileged.https://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/iwonderwhy/13751/Catalonia-is-Spain-and-Spain-is-Catalonia.aspx

[Morena]

all those who wish to separate should be granted their wish if they vote to do so. That is the essence of freedom and democracy.

[Cristiano viejo]

How are they are self haters? I don't care if Catalunya becomes independent but personally I find it foolish and not authentic. There was barely any talk of independence prior to the economic difficulties in Spain. Even during Franco's era there wasn't a struggle for independence unlike in the Basque lands. It's amusing that talk of separatism has pretty much died down in the Basque lands, while it has risen in Catalunya. The motivation is different. Catalan politicians (many of whom aren't even fully Catalan or even ethnically Catalan at all) are trying to shift the economic woes away from themselves towards Madrid. They're looking for a scapegoat to draw attention away from themselves.
You answered the question yourself.


I highly recommend Henry Kamen's books. Although I haven't read the one mentioned here.

I am not very fan of Kamen, that anti-Franquista... but here seems right.

[Sizzo]

https://i.imgur.com/0TS38YR.png

http://www.repubblica.it/super8/2017/09/08/news/le_dua_anime_della_catalogna-174921759/

Well, it's in Italian but the focus is: "There are those who swear there are two Countries that would immediately recognize an independent Catalonia. One is Israel, for strategic Mediterranean reasons, and because Spain has always been a Country considered pro-Arab. The other is the Vatican of Pope Francis." This handipendence sounds very cool then!

La Catalogna è Spagna

[Lavrentis]

https://i.imgur.com/0TS38YR.png

http://www.repubblica.it/super8/2017/09/08/news/le_dua_anime_della_catalogna-174921759/

Well, it's in Italian but the focus is: "There are those who swear there are two Countries that would immediately recognize an independent Catalonia. One is Israel, for strategic Mediterranean reasons, and because Spain has always been a Country considered pro-Arab. The other is the Vatican of Pope Francis." This handipendence sounds very cool then!

La Catalogna è Spagna

I don't think that Israel will recocnize Catalonia. The reason is simple: Spain hasn't recognized Palestine.

And Spain is a pro-Arab country? That's the first time I'm hearing about this.

[Cristiano viejo]

I don't think that Israel will recocnize Catalonia. The reason is simple: Spain hasn't recognized Palestine.
Of course Israel would do. Catalan separatist leaders and Israeli politicians make direct contact since some years ago and the first always have said Israel supports them, etc etc etc


And Spain is a pro-Arab country? That's the first time I'm hearing about this.
We are pro-Arab just because we are anti-Israel.

[Laberia]

We are Arabs.

fixed

[Óttar]

Fun with comparative Romance languages:

Castilian: Los gatos

Catalan: Els gats

Do we really need an independence referendum over this?

[Damião de Góis]

It won't happen but it would be funny to see some things:

- The Catalan football league: Barcelona competing with Espanyol and Lleida.
- Would they forbid spanish language? I think catalan speakers are in the minority.
- Heated national team derbys: Spain vs Catalonia
- El Classico would be a rare european football event.

So yeah, my main concern here is football :lol:

[B01AB20]

What I find more ironic about this... it's that if central goverment of Madrid accepted to make a binding referendum of self-determination in Catalonia then the NO to independence surely would win, at least that's what ALL surveys say, and problem solved.

But of course that would a disastrous precedent in a country like Spain, where even regions like Castilla have groups which think they're some kind of nation repressed by vile Spain since the Ice Age... :p

[B01AB20]

It won't happen but it would be funny to see some things:

- The Catalan football league: Barcelona competing with Espanyol and Lleida.
- Would they forbid spanish language? I think catalan speakers are in the minority.
- Heated national team derbys: Spain vs Catalonia
- El Classico would be a rare european football event.

So yeah, my main concern here is football :lol:

Don't know if they believe what they say, but independentists say that catalonia would be immediately accepted as a new state of EU and barça could play in the league they wanted, the spanish, the french... and even tha catalonian league. ;)

When Catalonia will be independent everything will be like La vie en Rose.

[Damião de Góis]

Don't know if they believe what they say, but independentists say that catalonia would be immediately accepted as a new state of EU and barça could play in the league they wanted, the spanish, the french... and even tha catalonian league. ;)

When Catalonia will be independent everything will be like La vie en Rose.

I bet the spanish federation would tell them to fuck off. On the bright side, Messi would get multiple Golden Boot awards because of his 100 gols per season against Gimnastic.

[B01AB20]

Fun with comparative Romance languages:

Castilian: Los gatos

Catalan: Els gats

Do we really need an independence referendum over this?

Well, I have heard to some independists that that is precisely a good reason to get independence, catalan and castillian are not very differentiated and hence that's another reason against the survival of catalonia as a differentiated nation.

[EuropeanVlachSon]

It won't happen but it would be funny to see some things:

- The Catalan football league: Barcelona competing with Espanyol and Lleida.
- Would they forbid spanish language? I think catalan speakers are in the minority.
- Heated national team derbys: Spain vs Catalonia
- El Classico would be a rare european football event.

So yeah, my main concern here is football :lol:

Probably the football league will remain the same

[B01AB20]

I bet the spanish federation would tell them to fuck off. On the bright side, Messi would get multiple Golden Boot awards because of his 100 gols per season against Gimnastic.

And I bet messi would tell to fuck off to barça playing the catalan league.
Messi and the all the rest.

[Autrigón]

http://katehon.com/sites/default/files/1447621520_people-take-streets-banner-reading-independence-during-protest-greater-autonomy-catalonia.jpg

One million Catalans march for independence on region's national day

"Up to 1 million Catalans have gathered in Barcelona to call for independence less than three weeks before the region is due to hold a bitterly divisive vote on breaking away from Spain."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/catalonia-barcelona-independence-national-day-diadaI am pro referendum because I think all the people from wherever have the rights to vote to decide their future.
But this referendum is absolutely no sense...zero organization....zero explanations about the consequences...zero arguments...
Not all the people in the march want the independence...a lot of people want to make a referendum to have the right to vote NO to independence.

Anyway I don't care if Catalonia gets their independence. In fact I'm sure a lot of spaniards would like to have Catalonia out of Spain :p

[Damião de Góis]

Probably the football league will remain the same

Every sovereign country has their own football league. If they want it they have to be prepared to go all the way.
If not they would be considered a fake country like Monaco or Wales who have teams in the french and english leagues respectively.

[Milionki]

I saw the news, things are looking serious, will Spain send any force to stop the vote? Does Catalonia even have any chances of getting independent?

[Lluna Plena]

I know an another quote:

Source:
Letter to William Stephens Smith (13 November 1787), quoted in Padover's Jefferson On Democracy

Great quote!, thanx. :D

[Lluna Plena]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Catalonia

[Lluna Plena]

Must see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxdlD5KuCA

[B01AB20]

Must translate. :coffee:

El manifiesto ‘Los otros catalanes’ se ha convertido en un fenómeno viral. Publicado a principios de agosto como aportación de un lector al espacio Entre Todos, desde entonces se ha compartido centenares de veces en Facebook y, según publica ‘El Confidencial’, lleva semanas circulando por WhatsApp. El texto íntegro dice:

Somos los otros catalanes: los que cuando vamos a manifestaciones nos comportamos como personas civilizadas, los que nunca colocaremos ninguna bandera en el balcón; somos tranquilos, tolerantes, trabajadores, pacíficos, discretos y amigos de nuestros amigos; queremos tener salud, amor y trabajo, como todo el mundo; creemos en la familia y en el esfuerzo personal y no en la donación y subvención para conseguir las cosas; amamos la paz y la libertad.

Aborrecemos la corrupción, la violencia, el abuso de poder, la manipulación y la mentira.

Somos bilingües sin complejos; hacemos 'zapping' sin problemas por todas las opciones y la película que vimos ayer ya no recordamos en qué idioma la oímos (catalán o castellano).

Nos gustan los deportes y animamos igualmente a Nadal, Ferrer, Lorenzo, Alonso, al Barça, al Español y a la Selección, y nos da igual si el gol lo mete un catalán o un manchego cuando competimos por la copa de Europa o el Mundial. Y por respeto no pitamos el himno de España, ni ningún otro.

Estamos hartos del 'procés' y del politiqueo en general con tanta mentira. Votamos al menos malo o por descarte.

Aborrecemos a quienes fomentan las fobias entre territorios, sean del color que sean, de aquí o de cualquier otro sitio, para ganar cuatro votos, mantener la poltrona y seguir llevándose el caldo calentito a cuenta de todos.

No creemos que la independencia sea la solución a todos nuestros problemas: no somos tan ingenuos; consideramos que la política de confrontación y sus líderes son precisamente parte del problema.

¿Por qué está todo tan crispado? ¿No tendrían que trabajar todos para sacarnos de esta crisis, dejarse de historias y no confrontarnos unos con otros? Creo que muchos pensamos así, pero no se nos ve ni se nos oye: somos 'los Otros'. Y aunque saben que estamos nos ignoran por no pensar como ellos.

Tras el próximo fracaso del 1 de octubre habrá nuevas elecciones autonómicas. Informad a todos los que formamos parte de 'los Otros', a vuestros conocidos, a los indecisos, a los que piensan que esto no va con ellos, que de nuestro voto en las citadas futuras elecciones autonómicas depende que Catalunya siga siendo feudo de unos cuantos que basan su discurso en el odio a los demás pueblos de España, adoctrinando en las escuelas a nuestros niños y difundiendo propaganda y mentiras en los canales autonómicos y en los otros medios comprados con subvenciones pagadas con nuestro dinero. Exijamos que los constitucionalistas lo sean por encima de los intereses de sus partidos.

Vamos a demostrar a quienes lideran el 'procés' que en el mundo somos catalanes y españoles. Vamos a demostrarles que no nos hemos creído la vil mentira de que "Espanya ens roba" cuando los únicos que nos han estado robando son ellos: nuestros recursos, nuestro dinero, nuestro orgullo y nuestra dignidad, intentando vanamente hacernos sentir inferiores y de segunda. Vamos a decirle a ellos y al mundo que ya basta de muestras de odio, intransigencias y amenazas de sanciones para quien no colabora o piensa como ellos. Vamos a frenar esta aventura que solo nos ha traído y traerá más pobreza económica e intelectual y más crisis a pesar de que nos prometen el paraíso.

Porque amamos Catalunya, porque amamos España, porque queremos seguir siendo europeos, ¡viva Catalunya!

[Dandelion]

Fun with comparative Romance languages:

Castilian: Los gatos

Catalan: Els gats

Do we really need an independence referendum over this?

That's just one word. But it's easy to read Catalan articles for sure. Still a different language.

[Columella]

I'm not against individual nationalities choice of governing themselves.
But
This continuous fragmentation of Europe in small states will only weaken the continent.
There is a bit too much egocentrism involved.
You change flag, capital, and then??? It's a smaller weaker state...like what happened for Jugoslavia.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dandelion]

Well, let nationalism fade by not being an asshole and assure respect for the local character. I remember on ABF in 2011 one Spanish unionist thinking it a wise idea to insult Catalans as if they were inferior as humans. It's a weird nationalism: insult the people of a land you want to have part of your country.

In that regard I also hope the Daily Mail also exaggerates here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588985/Shakira-dubbed-disgusting-traitor-Spain-singing-Catalan-track-new-album.html

(I looked up Shakira + Catalan because somebody posted a song of hers in that language on this forum and stumbled upon that article :p)

The song does have 1k dislikes and an autistic comments section about the Catalan language .

[Cristiano viejo]

Well, let nationalism fade by not being an asshole and assure respect for the local character. I remember on ABF in 2011 one Spanish unionist thinking it a wise idea to insult Catalans as if they were inferior as humans. It's a weird nationalism: insult the people of a land you want to have part of your country.

Why is weird? anti-Catalan nationalists hate nationalists because they are retarded and self-haters (remember that almost everyone there has non-Catalan roots, starting by the own separatist president, Carlos Puigdemont, who has an Andalusian grandomother, from Jaén), nothing to do with the land.


Probably the football league will remain the same
At all. The president of the Spanish League already has said that all the Catalan teams would be expelled and he has criticized the Catalan president of the Catalan Olympic Comitee by saying Barcelona will play where they want.


fixed
We are not who are Muslims, dress like Muslims and our names and surnames are Muslims, little Albanian :thumb001:


I saw the news, things are looking serious, will Spain send any force to stop the vote? Does Catalonia even have any chances of getting independent?

Nah.

[Dandelion]

Why is weird? anti-Catalan nationalists hate nationalists because they are retarded and self-haters (remember that almost everyone there has non-Catalan roots, starting by the own separatist president, Carlos Puigdemont, who has an Andalusian grandomother, from Jaén), nothing to do with the land.


Another argument I don't get. "They have an ancestor who isn't Catalan." The nationalism is clearly about culture and the Catalan nationalists identify with Catalan culture. Culture is often largely defined not only by blood, but also by upbringing depending on the degree. It's no contradiction. And if you insult Catalan culture, you get more independist sentiment. Obvious.

[Cristiano viejo]

Another argument I don't get. They have an ancestor who isn't Catalan. The nationalism is clearly about culture. It's no contradiction. And if you insult Catalan culture, you get more interdependist sentiment. Obvious.

About culture???? :lol: they are filling Catalonia with Muslims, and you talk about culture????

Take a bit of Catalan culture
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220984-Classify-the-Romanian-wife-of-the-separatist-president-of-Catalonia

[Dandelion]

About culture???? :lol: they are filling Catalonia with Muslims, and you talk about culture????

Take a bit of Catalan culture
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220984-Classify-the-Romanian-wife-of-the-separatist-president-of-Catalonia

A Romanian wife.

It's like this girl confronting you with your racism with Andid music in the background. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwAn537Lew

[EuropeanVlachSon]

About culture???? :lol: they are filling Catalonia with Muslims, and you talk about culture????

Take a bit of Catalan culture
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220984-Classify-the-Romanian-wife-of-the-separatist-president-of-Catalonia

Again your pathetic disgusting xenophobia towards east Europeans?
We are less muslims/arabic than you, trust me.

[Finnish Swede]

I am a regionalist and do support any euro people willing their freedom or in that case their independancy.

I wish them to get what they want !

Me too. That should be everyones (ethnics) right. And if then one simply can not survive as a independency country (lack of money, resources, can not create a working society etc.)...then it will natural ways return to being a part of something bigger. No forces needed.

Wierd that exactly Russia came to my mind now....

[Cristiano viejo]

A Romanian wife.

It's like this girl confronting you with your racism with Andid music in the background. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwAn537Lew
:lol:
yeah, quite pathetic.


Again your pathetic disgusting xenophobia towards east Europeans?
We are less muslims/arabic than you, trust me.

I did not call Muslims to you, I just focused in the fact that you can not preserve the Catalan culture and thereupon you marry with a foreigner.

We are not Muslim/Arabic, trust me.

You seem quite furious with my comments, giving thumb downs like a crazy... relax, boy :cool:

[Cristiano viejo]

Me too. That should be everyones (ethnics) right.
Most of Catalans are not ethnic Catalans, for start.


And if then one simply can not survive as a independency country (lack of money, resources, can not create a working society etc.)...then it will natural ways return to being a part of something bigger. No forces needed.

Good joke :picard1:

[Kriptc06]

Vai haver mesmo referendo? O Tribunal Constitucional de Espanha decidiu suspender a lei e todos os decretos que suportam o referendo sobre a independência da Catalunha.

Ainda é possível, declarando independência uniliteralmente. Na verdade se tu parar pra pensar a maioria dos movimentos independistas é ou foi 'ilegal' em algum momento. A pergunta que fica é: Será usada a força policial ou militar para pará-los? Haverá conflitos civis?

[Sizzo]

I wonder why a region like Catalonia should separate from Spain; people with the same history, geographic context, place name (Catalonia = Castilla, land of castles), culture... Which is the point? French wannabeism because of the Frankish conquest? The funny thing is that Spain should regain Roussillon and not lose Catalonia!

[Melki]

I wonder why a region like Catalonia should separate from Spain; people with the same history, geographic context, place name (Catalonia = Castilla, land of castles), culture... Which is the point? French wannabeism because of the Frankish conquest? The funny thing is that Spain should regain Roussillon and not lose Catalonia!

Following your completely biased logic, Spain should also annex Portugal, do an anschluss on his neighbor since the Portuguese language is even closer to Castillan than Catalan. :roll eyes

[Sizzo]

Following your completely biased logic, Spain should also annex Portugal, do an anschluss on his neighbor since the Portuguese language is even closer to Castillan than Catalan. :roll eyes

I'm not an Iberian, so I don't pretend to be an authority, but I think that an Iberian federation (anti-EU) wouldn't be a bad idea; yes, Portugal and Galicia are very similar and I think that Spaniards and Portuguese people are brothers. After all they are both Hispania and Ibero-Romance.

[Melki]

I'm not an Iberian, so I don't pretend to be an authority, but I think that an Iberian federation (anti-EU) wouldn't be a bad idea; yes, Portugal and Galicia are very similar and I think that Spaniards and Portuguese people are brothers. After all they are both Hispania and Ibero-Romance.

Yes, but Portugal was united to the Spanish kingdom in a dynastic union from 1580 to 1640, and Castilla was the true master of the peninsula. The Portuguese nobility had few importance at the Cortes, the Spanish Parliament, and all the Portuguese government posts were occupied by Spaniards. This led to many revolts conducted by the Portuguese but also the Catalans and brought an end to the Union.

So, I don't really think Portuguese would appreciate to be part of another Iberian Union.

[Sizzo]

Yes, but Portugal was united to the Spanish kingdom in a dynastic union from 1580 to 1640, and Castilla was the true master of the peninsula. The Portuguese nobility had few importance at the Cortes, the Spanish Parliament, and all the Portuguese government posts were occupied by Spaniards. This led to many revolts conducted by the Portuguese but also the Catalans and brought an end to the Union.

So, I don't really think Portuguese would appreciate to be part of another Iberian Union.

Infacts, I didn't talk about "union" but federation, ethno-federalism, with Basque people too. Not centralism or Spanish supremacy, an identitarian agreement. Obviously without monarchy: social nationalism and ethno-federalism, and no more "European" Union or Nato dictatorship. An Iberian federation, an Italian federation, a Gaulish federation, a German federation etc. for a neo-ghibelline Europe.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, but Portugal was united to the Spanish kingdom in a dynastic union from 1580 to 1640, and Castilla was the true master of the peninsula. The Portuguese nobility had few importance at the Cortes, the Spanish Parliament, and all the Portuguese government posts were occupied by Spaniards. This led to many revolts conducted by the Portuguese but also the Catalans and brought an end to the Union.

So, I don't really think Portuguese would appreciate to be part of another Iberian Union.

Un 78% de los portugueses quieren una unión política con España
http://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20160716/403264938104/78-portugueses-quiere-union-espana.html

I am against, by the way.
And by the way too, you should know that yesterday during the Diada, the Catalan separatists burned the French flag... together with the Spanish one, ofc...

[Melki]

Infacts, I didn't talk about "union" but federation, ethno-federalism, with Basque people too. Not centralism or Spanish supremacy, an identitarian agreement. Obviously without monarchy: social nationalism and ethno-federalism, and no more "European" Union or Nato dictatorship. An Iberian federation, an Italian federation, a Gaulish federation, a German federation etc. for a neo-ghibelline Europe.

This would lead to many local conflicts of interests.

Look at the Scandinavian nations, despite all their shared common features, they would never accept to form a 2nd Union of Kalmar, especially Norway, proud of its independence (and of its oil and natural gas) gained a century ago, which suffered a lot from being united with Denmark then Norway.
It's even more true with Iceland, proud to be geographically half-European and half-American, the Icelandic resentment against the Danish occupation is still strong. Not to mention the Faeroe Islands and Greenland which would like to become sovereign too.

Besides, the Basques don't feel Iberian at all, trust me. They are mountaineers, neither Spanish nor French.

[Cristiano viejo]

Besides, the Basques don't feel Iberian at all, trust me. They are mountaineers, neither Spanish nor French.

Sure...

[Sizzo]

This would lead to many local conflicts of interests.

Look at the Scandinavian nations, despite all their shared common features, they would never accept to form a 2nd Union of Kalmar, especially Norway, proud of its independence gained a century ago, which suffered a lot from being united with Denmark then Norway.
It's even more true with Iceland, proud to be geographically half-European and half-American, the Icelandic resentment against the Danish occupation is still strong. Not to mention the Faeroe Islands and Greenland which would like to become sovereign too.

Besides, the Basques don't feel Iberian at all, trust me. They are mountaineers, neither Spanish nor French.

Well, there are Venetians who don't feel Italian but they are still Italian (ancient Venetics were Italic like Latins). I don't like this micro-chauvinistic drift, in Europe, because is only weakness and selfishness, based on money and opportunism. Iceland is not a nation for sure, they are Scandinavian with some Irish. Furthermore, these independentisms are often left-wing, Trojan horses full of enemies of Europe and their peoples and cultures. Imho, would be better an Iberian federation than a splitted Spain, a compromise between ethno-nationalism and regionalism. Anyway is just an opinion, maybe because I'm thinking to an Italy in a thousand pieces, as in pre-unitarian era: this is the risk of secessionism; today Padania, then Lombardy vs. Venetia, then western Lombardy vs. eastern Lombardy till the struggle for the secession of our bedrooms.

[Melki]

Well, there are Venetians who don't feel Italian but they are still Italian (ancient Venetics were Italic like Latins). I don't like this micro-chauvinistic drift, in Europe, because is only weakness and selfishness, based on money and opportunism. Iceland is not a nation for sure, they are Scandinavian with some Irish. Furthermore, these independentisms are often left-wing, Trojan horses full of enemies of Europe and their peoples and cultures. Imho, would be better an Iberian federation than a splitted Spain, a compromise between ethno-nationalism and regionalism. Anyway is just an opinion, maybe because I'm thinking to an Italy in a thousand pieces, as in pre-unitarian era: this is the risk of secessionism; today Padania, then Lombardy vs. Venetia, then western Lombardy vs. eastern Lombardy till the struggle for the secession of our bedrooms.

Iceland is definitely a nation, Icelanders are the wardens of the old viking sagas and language, lost a long time ago in continental Scandinavia. That they are partly Celtic is irrelevant, many Norwegians have Sami or Finnic blood.

[Sizzo]

Iceland is definitely a nation, Icelanders are the wardens of the old viking sagas and language, lost a long time ago in continental Scandinavia. That they are partly Celtic is irrelevant, many Norwegians have Sami or Finnic blood.

"Iceland" means "land of ice", that's not an ethnonim, they are brothers of Norwegian people. Btw, since they are insular and far away from proper Scandinavia, I could recognize they are a people with its own identity. But the blood is still Norse and Scandinavian, as their original culture.

[Cristiano viejo]

"Iceland" means "land of ice", that's not an ethnonim, they are brothers of Norwegian people. Btw, since they are insular and far away from proper Scandinavia, I could recognize they are a people with its own identity. But the blood is still Norse and Scandinavian, as their original culture.

In fact, in a few years Icelanders will be the last pure Scandinavian people.
When that happens I think they will must change their name to Norwegians or Swedes xD

[Sizzo]

In fact, in a few years Icelanders will be the last pure Scandinavian people.
When that happens I think they will must change their name to Norwegians or Swedes xD

Indeed. I pity those poor self-hating Southern Europeans who have inferiority complex towards the "mythological" Nordics. Better Naples than the amusement park for migrants (and other charity cases) that is modern Northern Europe.

[Melki]

"Iceland" means "land of ice", that's not an ethnonim, they are brothers of Norwegian people. Btw, since they are insular and far away from proper Scandinavia, I could recognize they are a people with its own identity. But the blood is still Norse and Scandinavian, as their original culture.

1000 years of isolation was enough for them to develop their own singularity, history, traditions, folklore, dishes, etc...distinct from the Norwegians. They never fell Danish. Sharing the same blood does not justify that 2 peoples are blend into a same nationality. On the other hand, 2 peoples of different ethnicities can build a community of common destiny. You should read Ernest Renan's lecture: "What is a nation".

[Sizzo]

1000 years of isolation was enough for them to develop their own singularity, history, traditions, folklore, dishes, etc...distinct from the Norwegians. They never fell Danish. Sharing the same blood does not justify that 2 peoples are blend into a same nationality. On the other hand, 2 peoples of different ethnicities can build a community of common destiny. You should read Ernest Renan's lecture: "What is a nation".

Sure, maybe in your mind also San Marino, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco and Vatican are nations. Nation is where blood, soil and spirit are united and generate a common ETHNIC identity and culture. Otherwise tomorrow morning I'll wake up and found my own nation, like this delirium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Rose_Island.

[Melki]

Sure, maybe in your mind also San Marino, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco and Vatican are nations. Nation is where blood, soil and spirit are united and generate a common ETHNIC identity and culture. Otherwise tomorrow morning I'll wake up and found my own nation, like this delirium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Rose_Island.

Do you think Flemish are ethnically or even culturally distinct from the Dutch? Absolutely not, even their "language" are local variants of Dutch. Yet, for historical reasons, they developed a strong identity and dream of their own nation. They would never like to be part of the Netherlands.

[Sizzo]

Do you think Flemish are ethnically or even culturally distinct from the Dutch? Absolutely not, even their "language" are local variants of Dutch. Yet, for historical reasons, they developed a strong identity and dream of their own nation. They would never like to be part of the Netherlands.

Yes: Flemish are Dutch and then part of the Netherlands, that are part of Germany as well. And of course Wallonia is France as Corsica is Italy. I prefer the historical nation and the true concept of identity, that is an ethno-racial concept. A European continent where every selfishness become a "nation" is the contrary of identity and tradition. You are free to think that Flanders shoud be an independent state but imo sounds quite ridicolous: if every single regions of Europe pretend independence it would be a cataclysm for the continent (but a pleasure for European unionism made in Penelux).

[Damião de Góis]

Un 78% de los portugueses quieren una unión política con España
http://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20160716/403264938104/78-portugueses-quiere-union-espana.html


Study done by a spanish institute. I'm skeptical about that result. Either the question asked didn't mention any loss of sovereignty or the universe considered is not the most reliable.
I see this was from last year, but our media didn't pay much attention to it.

[Dandelion]

Do you think Flemish are ethnically or even culturally distinct from the Dutch? Absolutely not, even their "language" are local variants of Dutch. Yet, for historical reasons, they developed a strong identity and dream of their own nation. They would never like to be part of the Netherlands.

Never say never. During the Dutch Revolt there was a tendency toward it happening and our relations never were as good as they are today. The younger the generation the better people get along with Dutch people too. Doesn't mean the unification of the Netherlands would ever happen, but I would neither say never.

[Melki]

Yes: Flemish are Dutch and then part of the Netherlands, that are part of Germany as well. And of course Wallonia is France as Corsica is Italy. I prefer the historical nation and the true concept of identity, that is an ethno-racial concept. A European continent where every selfishness become a "nation" is the contrary of identity and tradition. You are free to think that Flanders shoud be an independent state but imo sounds quite ridicolous: if every single regions of Europe pretend independence it would be a cataclysm for the continent (but a pleasure for European unionism made in Penelux).

Maybe, but far-right nationalists from Vlaams Belang don't share your position.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hXw7ouyEJo

[Dandelion]

Maybe, but far-right nationalists from Vlaams Belang don't share your position.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hXw7ouyEJo

They're very politically correct about it all. They wouldn't win with a Dutch irrendentist viewpoint because Flemish nationalism was formed inside a Belgian context and was very parochial with Catholic pastors seen as leading figures.
It's a kind of nationalism which isn't really alive today, but its symbolism is what we're stuck with. Real backward parochialism in West Flanders even, which used to have a bishop shunning Dutch literature because of potential Protestant influences (as historically the Dutch language was seen as a vehicle responsible for the Reformation in the 16th century). They even tried to forge a separate Flemish language, but those efforts failed because in my city, Antwerp for instance, they swept it aside as 'backward provincialism'. :p Even though linguistic particularists like Guido Gezelle are studied both in the Netherlands as Belgium because his language is Dutch despite his not having agreed with the Dutch standard language we now accept. :p

Yet we are tolerant of dialects and in fact in the Netherlands exist dialects which deviate far more from the Standard Dutch norm than in the entire Dutch-speaking part of Belgium.

Sadly it makes non-Dutch speakers often think there is such a thing as a separate 'Flemish language' which needs protecting, while it's more like a dialect group of Dutch spoken in the provinces of East and West Flanders, whereas my dialect is Brabantian.

Our nationalism is low because during the height of the nationalist period they messed up our symbolism and myths with some fake pars-pro-toto Flemish identity defined by a provincial Catholicism aimed at keeping its subjects dumb and incorrectly fearing an evangelicalism that never was bound to happen.

[Sizzo]

Maybe, but far-right nationalists from Vlaams Belang don't share your position.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2hXw7ouyEJo

Who cares? I have nothing to do with Israel's friends.

[Melki]

Who cares? I have nothing to do with Israel's friends.

I don't know how Flemish demonstrations of patriotism are linked with Israel in your confused mind and I don't care.

Anyway, here's Ernest Renan's lecture about what a Nation is, a speech that makes sense even today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_Nation%3F

[Sizzo]

I don't know how Flemish demonstrations of patriotism are linked with Israel in your confused mind and I don't care.

Anyway, here's Ernest Renan's lecture about what a Nation is, a speech that makes sense even today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_Nation%3F

I'm not interested in your bullshit, dear leftard/libtard. Anyway: "Currently the party sees itself as strongly pro-Jewish, regarding Jews and Israelis as allies against radical Islam.[30] In Antwerp, sections of the city's large Jewish community actively support the party, as they feel threatened by the new wave of anti-Semitism from the growing Muslim population.[31] In 2010, the party was part of a delegation to Israel (along with some other rightist parties), where they issued the "Jerusalem Declaration," which defended the right of Israel to exist and defend itself against terrorism"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang

[Dandelion]

I don't know how Flemish demonstrations of patriotism are linked with Israel in your confused mind and I don't care.

Anyway, here's Ernest Renan's lecture about what a Nation is, a speech that makes sense even today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_Nation%3F

Well, Vlaams Belang does want the Jewish vote and is very pro-zionist. Very different from the Front National which is very anti-zionist. Still for the time being Vlaams Belang sees itself as an ally of the FN and not all of its party members are as zionistic I guess. They're kind of a marginal party nowadays due to their lowbrow past. Tom Van Grieken is trying to uplift the reputation of the party, but unsuccessfully so.
Also, even though Vlaams Belang is pro-zionist, it didn't stop Filip De Winter, Anke Vandermeersch and Jan Penris (lol@the name) to meet with the Golden Dawn in Greece. Tom Van Grieken (also an ironic name) did kick Vandermeersch out of the party board for this and warned Filip De Winter (who's too high profile in the party to be kicked out). Still, people aren't voting Vlaams Belang as French are voting FN which is currently the most competent far right party in Europe probably.

Needless to say, the zionist stance of Vlaams Belang is very shaky and Jews are aware of that. :p

[Cristiano viejo]

Well, Vlaams Belang does want the Jewish vote

Many Jews in Belgium or what?

[Dandelion]

Many Jews in Belgium or what?

Only in Antwerp and Brussels, but of course mainly the ones in Antwerp are the potential voters for Vlaams Belang. Mostly Hassidic Jews though...

[Melki]

I'm not interested in your bullshit, dear leftard/libtard. Anyway: "Currently the party sees itself as strongly pro-Jewish, regarding Jews and Israelis as allies against radical Islam.[30] In Antwerp, sections of the city's large Jewish community actively support the party, as they feel threatened by the new wave of anti-Semitism from the growing Muslim population.[31] In 2010, the party was part of a delegation to Israel (along with some other rightist parties), where they issued the "Jerusalem Declaration," which defended the right of Israel to exist and defend itself against terrorism"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang

Zionists usually belong to the ultra-right and share with European right-wing nationalist movements a common Islamophobia. What did you expect?

[Dandelion]

Speaking about nationalists. Interesting how in Spain as well in Northern Ireland they aren't right wing, but rather left wing. Of course there also exist left wing Flemish nationalists, but they're such a fringe group you'd only meet them on forums.

[Cristiano viejo]

Speaking about nationalists. Interesting how in Spain as well in Northern Ireland they aren't right wing, but rather left wing. Of course there also exist left wing Flemish nationalists, but they're such a fringe group you'd only meet them on forums.

In Vascongadas the most nationalist voted party, PNV, is right wing and in Catalonia tradiotionally the most nationalist voted party has been CiU, also right wing.

[Dandelion]

In Vascongadas the most nationalist voted party, PNV, is right wing and in Catalonia tradiotionally the most nationalist voted party has been CiU, also right wing.

I stand corrected then. But left-wing nationalism isn't a fringe group over there like it is here.

[Sizzo]

Zionists usually belong to the ultra-right and share with European nationalist movements a common Islamophobia. What did you expect?

I gladly let the -phobia to children. The worst problem of islam is the ethno-racial nature of the main part of its believers, not very European... If aliens are Christian changes nothing, to me: they're still aliens even if baptized. In fact, who cares about christianity, judaism, islam? They are the same Semitic rubbish. "far right" is an umbrella term I don't like, is too trivial and generic. Left, center, right, bah... Useless labels. What counts is blood, fatherland, culture, that don't know the theater of politicians. Btw I don't change my mind on the Flemish issue: they are Dutch and that's all.

[Melki]

I gladly let the -phobia to children. The worst problem of islam is the ethno-racial nature of the main part of its believers, not very European... If aliens are Christian changes nothing, to me: they're still aliens even if baptized. In fact, who cares about christianity, judaism, islam? They are the same Semitic rubbish. "far right" is an umbrella term I don't like, is too trivial and generic. Left, center, right, bah... Useless labels. What counts is blood, fatherland, culture, that don't know the theater of politicians. Btw I don't change my mind on the Flemish issue: they are Dutch and that's all.

I agree with you only for the last part: Flemish are ethnically a Dutch volk, i. e. Lower Germans, but Catalans are not Castillans, they have more in common with the Occitans, who are distinct from the Frankish French.

[Sizzo]

I agree with you only for the last part: Flemish are ethnically a Dutch volk, i. e. Lower Germans, but Catalans are not Castillans, they have more in common with the Occitans, who are distinct from the Frankish French.

Even Northern Italy has more in common with Occitania and Catalonia, than Sicily or Naples, but it is never existed an Italian continuum (or an ibero-occitanian one) in between North Italy, Occitania and Catalonia. Genetically speaking I'm closer to Provence (the Roman Provincia) than to Abruzzo but the concept of nationality is more complex in comparison with a genetic plot. I don't really understand which is the problem, for Catalans, about the rest of Spaniards: I guess, after all, is only a matter of money, with that folkloristic facade. A progressist separatism as the Catalan one is not interested in blood and soil; besides, how many ethnic Catalans are there? I've heard that Catalonia is full of immigrants.

[Böri]

Spain might consider the necessity of a military intervention İ guess.

[Böri]

If Catalonia is gone, Basques won't stay watching considering that they are even non-IE. Basques going means France itself will be threatened, which in turn stirs Corsicans and Britanny Kelts etc. So France will feel threatened too and will support Madrid government.
If you give an inch, you will lose the mile later.
If not, then Catalonia will be followed by Basques and possibly some regional separatisms will also arise like Galicia. Defend the state which was established by Catholic King and Queen back in late Middle Ages.

[B01AB20]

I don't really understand which is the problem, for Catalans, about the rest of Spaniards: I guess, after all, is only a matter of money, with that folkloristic facade. A progressist separatism as the Catalan one is not interested in blood and soil; besides, how many ethnic Catalans are there? I've heard that Catalonia is full of immigrants.

Catalans nationalists parties are voted by mostly ethnic catalans, and pro-spanish parties are voted mainly by ethnic spaniards, although mixed people of catalan/spanish ancestry is very abundant too.

The shity progressive/multicultural discourse is a sacred dogma here, but only is sacred in public, privately most of people behave and act politically accordingly to their ethnicity.

Blood and soil is what determine people actions... like always, the progressive multiculturalism is a circunstancial shity dogma, like in other times was christianity or cult to roman emperor.

[Melki]

Even Northern Italy has more in common with Occitania and Catalonia, than Sicily or Naples, but it is never existed an Italian continuum (or an ibero-occitanian one) in between North Italy, Occitania and Catalonia. Genetically speaking I'm closer to Provence (the Roman Provincia) than to Abruzzo but the concept of nationality is more complex in comparison with a genetic plot. I don't really understand which is the problem, for Catalans, about the rest of Spaniards: I guess, after all, is only a matter of money, with that folkloristic facade. A progressist separatism as the Catalan one is not interested in blood and soil; besides, how many ethnic Catalans are there? I've heard that Catalonia is full of immigrants.

Catalans are a majority in their own country (4,8M for a total population of 7,2M)


Spain might consider the necessity of a military intervention İ guess.

Sweet. Welcome back in Yugoslavia, 1989, or in Lithuania, 1990.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Now that Real Madrid is finally much stronger than Barça and humilliating them classico after classico, I truly believe that they will vote pro independence wich will give them 100% assurance that their beloved symbol will win the Liga (the Catalan Liga) every year. :heh:

[Autrigón]

Even Northern Italy has more in common with Occitania and Catalonia, than Sicily or Naples, but it is never existed an Italian continuum (or an ibero-occitanian one) in between North Italy, Occitania and Catalonia. Genetically speaking I'm closer to Provence (the Roman Provincia) than to Abruzzo but the concept of nationality is more complex in comparison with a genetic plot. I don't really understand which is the problem, for Catalans, about the rest of Spaniards: I guess, after all, is only a matter of money, with that folkloristic facade. A progressist separatism as the Catalan one is not interested in blood and soil; besides, how many ethnic Catalans are there? I've heard that Catalonia is full of immigrants.Catalan nationalism is one of the most absurd of the world, there is not Catalan race or Catalan ethnicity, they are indistinguible of the rest of spaniards. They have never been independent, they have never been a kingdom, etc. Catalan language is just a derivation of spanish, I mean, I don't speak Catalan but I can understand Catalan without problems.

Unfortunately for them the Catalan nationalism is supported in lies, pink unicorns and sweet chocolate clouds.

Anyway I repeat again , I'm pro referendum, let people vote and let see.

[Autrigón]

I agree with you only for the last part: Flemish are ethnically a Dutch volk, i. e. Lower Germans, but Catalans are not Castillans, they have more in common with the Occitans, who are distinct from the Frankish French.Catalans are indistinguible from the rest of Spaniards. The Catalan ethnicity simply doesn't exist. In fact catalan nationalism is not supported in terms of ethnicity because they know that it would be ridiculous.
Catalan people have more in common with any other mediterranean region of Spain ,for example Valencia, than with Occitans.

[Autrigón]

https://www.ft.com/content/91c176e6-92e2-11e7-bdfa-eda243196c2c

The Spanish government has accused the Catalan parliament of committing a “constitutional and democratic atrocity”. So, what is the meaning of democracy?? Democracy means nothing if we don't have the right to vote. :banghead:Si, esta es la democracia y la tolerancia nacionalista. Si eres charnega deberías estar atenta...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7iIoY7HkrI

[Lluna Plena]

Yes. You're right. Catalan is a language. Not a dialect, as many spanish pretend...
Thanx for your support. :thumb001:

[Lluna Plena]

That's just one word. But it's easy to read Catalan articles for sure. Still a different language.

Yes. You're right. Catalan is a language. Not a dialect, as many spanish affirm...
Thanx for your support. :thumb001:

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Hopefully catalan independance will pass

[Laberia]

http://s.libertaddigital.com/2015/08/21/dni-catalan.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rUDc2RIerOU/Tcf8ItRPqjI/AAAAAAAAA5g/t2QWTH41MgQ/s1600/dni.jpg

[alnortedelsur]

Hopefully catalan independance will pass

Sit down and wait for it. You, Laberia, and other anti-Spanish haters, will end up like this:

https://attaboyplumbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/waiting-269x300.gif

[Potentia]

Haha.

Wait, they're actually serious? Hold on, let me laugh even harder.

Hahahahaha.

[Böri]

Catalan separatists never stopped being CNT FAI anarchos. They want to avenge Generalissimo's victory who put down their unrest.
Spaniards if they dont want to continue their existence as cucks, they must stand to protect the state built by Isabella and Ferdinand. I mean yeah Catalonia can be independent or not, but even if they succeed in independence that must not be with simple referandum and Spanish looking at the process like cows in a farm looking at the train passing nearby the field. Spanish can deliver struggle.

Imagine like a torch or lantern, passed through generations to next at the cost of the blood of hundreds of thousands maybe millions of Spaniards. Against Moors, Napoleon and the civil war. Now the torch, that heritage is in your hand and under your responsibility. Will you drop that like cowards? Just to appear 'modern and civilised fags?

Will you accept travelling to Barcelona from now on like you travel to France and Italy?

Manhood and alphaness arent harmed by defeat, but it is harmed by defeatist loserness. If Catalonia is gone then surely Basques and later likely Galicia will be gone.
Don't accept that. Admitting would dehumanise you.

[B01AB20]

Catalans are indistinguible from the rest of Spaniards. The Catalan ethnicity simply doesn't exist. In fact catalan nationalism is not supported in terms of ethnicity because they know that it would be ridiculous.



Si, esta es la democracia y la tolerancia nacionalista. Si eres charnega deberías estar atenta...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7iIoY7HkrI

well, these two posts are somewhat contradictory don't you think?.
You say one thing in the first and the video you post in the second says exactly the contrary.

Catalan ethnicity -in front of spanish ethnicity- is defined regarding language, surnames, history, not in terms of race.

[Böri]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ly6fSZfzYo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrXwaTcoNBg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGbGVvMEapY

[Melki]

Catalans are indistinguible from the rest of Spaniards. The Catalan ethnicity simply doesn't exist. In fact catalan nationalism is not supported in terms of ethnicity because they know that it would be ridiculous.
Catalan people have more in common with any other mediterranean region of Spain ,for example Valencia, than with Occitans.

So, you think Portuguese, whose language is even more similar to Castillan than Catalan, are not an ethnicity and thus, should be absorbed by Spain?
Why Portuguese should be a distinct sovereign nation and not Catalans or Valencians? I'm curious to read your response.

[Böri]

So, you think Portuguese, whose language is even more similar to Castillan than Catalan, are not an ethnicity and thus, should be absorbed by Spain?
Why Portuguese should be a distinct sovereign nation and not Catalans or Valencians? I'm curious to read your response.

Portugal is as old as Spain in his genesis and existence. And they didn't get or ensured their independence through 'democracy, or 'referendum, but through delivering a pitch battles since High Middle Ages.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowtiKZ2Qnw

It's not really similar with the situation of CNT-FAI Catalan separatists.

[Decius]

Fuck Catalonia

[Cristiano viejo]

Fuck Catalonia
Fuck Catalan separatists, whom are mostly not even ethnically Catalans.


So, you think Portuguese, whose language is even more similar to Castillan than Catalan, are not an ethnicity and thus, should be absorbed by Spain?
1- first mistake: you are taking for granted that Castilla = Spain.
2- Portuguese is not more similar to Castilian than Catalan.


Why Portuguese should be a distinct sovereign nation and not Catalans or Valencians? I'm curious to read your response.
Catalans or Valencians never had their own country. Not even the so-called Kigndom of Valencia was independent or a country since they belonged to Aragon in any way.

Go to the tomb of the Catholic king Fernando of Aragón and ask him why Catalans and Valencians joined what himself built :thumb001:


Hopefully catalan independance will pass
In what will this benefit to a black Dominican immigrant in NY?


http://s.libertaddigital.com/2015/08/21/dni-catalan.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rUDc2RIerOU/Tcf8ItRPqjI/AAAAAAAAA5g/t2QWTH41MgQ/s1600/dni.jpg

hahaha García, a very Catalan surname... hahaha
But yes, it is the most common surname there :cool:

In real life unfortunately for them Catalonia is full of immigrants, specially Muslims :rolleyes:

[Melki]

Portugal is as old as Spain in his genesis and existence. And they didn't get or ensured their independence through 'democracy, or 'referendum, but through delivering a pitch battles since High Middle Ages.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowtiKZ2Qnw

It's not really similar with the situation of CNT-FAI Catalan separatists.

Once again you are more familiar with the history of Yakutia or Kirghizistan than with Europe. And Europe is far more complex and rich than your horse-riding Turanid world.

After the Reconquista, there were not only one Spain but several. Kingdom of Aragon was first as mighty as the Kingdom of Castile, successor of the Kingdom of León.
Through dynastic unions and politics of marriage, each kingdom expanded its influence, absorbing principalties and duchies. Queen Isabella of Castile married King Ferdinand of Aragon, who centralised royal power. That's when the word Spain began to be used on a regular basis. Castillan became Spain's lingua franca.

Eventually, even the old rival Kingdom of Portugal was freewillingly absorbed by the Spanish crown, and remained Spanish for 60 years. They reconquered their independence, helped by England and France, after several revolts and riots, to which Catalans also took part.
Of couse, I simplified the whole story because it's difficult to summarise the long history of Spain.

Without these revolts, Portuguese would have perhaps never seceded and today, Portugal would still be Spain's 18th autonomous community. All the Spanish Apricitians like CV, alnortedelsur and Autrigón would negate that Portuguese are a true ethnicity.
I bet my shirt that they would claim that the Portuguese language is only Castillan but with "ç", "lh" and "ão", "õe"...

Well, keep in mind that Catalan is a language more distinct from Spanish than Portuguese or Galician.

[Cristiano viejo]

All the Spanish Apricitians like CV, alnortedelsur and Autrigón would negate that Portuguese are a true ethnicity.
I bet my shirt that they would claim that the Portuguese language is only Castillan but with "ç", "lh" and "ão", "õe"...
Portuguese is a true ethnicity and Portuguese language is only Galician language.

And Portuguese is a true ethnicity because they live isolated since 1000 years ago.


Well, keep in mind that Catalan is a language more distinct from Spanish than Portuguese or Galician.
No, not true. I insist, what you call Spanish language is simply Castilian. Galician is a Spanish language too.

And Castilian is not more similar to Portuguese than to Catalan.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Like I've said before, I am pretty worried about all this turmoil in the Peninsula and how it will affect us. Spain and Portugal are big economic partners and have a high external debt, the last thing that we need is to freak out the markets and fall into another economic crisis.

[Böri]

It doesnt matter they have a language or not. Here plays the rightfulness.
After all, Maghrebis in Paris and Marseille suburbs also have their distinct language, don't they? They might also apply for city states inside France according to same language-based rightfulness.
Also opening up language issue here, it's literally preparing the ground for the Basques issue which is certainly next to follow Catalonia; Basques are truly different in language even non-IE.

It seems that people known as Catalans today never ever had a state, save maybe for Barcelona which was absorbed by Aragon. And it's discussable how Catalan was that principate after all it was broken off from Frankish land Spanish March.

Anyway, I am not in love with Spain or Spaniards but there is human consciousness and historical rightfulness that play here.
Catalonian separatism is an attempt to undermine the Spanish state which has root in Middle Ages.

Telling Spaniards that they must accept the 'democratical will, of Catalans and literally 'let the land go, is like taking them for cucks.
Hope for Spaniards they don't accept this because their image and even maleness would be harmed. All Spaniards being right now over 20 would be sad until the end of their life, if they had to give a whole region without firing a bullet.

[Laberia]

So, you think Portuguese, whose language is even more similar to Castillan than Catalan, are not an ethnicity and thus, should be absorbed by Spain?
Why Portuguese should be a distinct sovereign nation and not Catalans or Valencians? I'm curious to read your response.

Hahahahahahahhaaa.
This is, borrowing a term used by servs against Albanians, PROVOKACIJA.

[Laberia]

Catalans or Valencians never had their own country. Not even the so-called Kigndom of Valencia was independent or a country since they belonged to Aragon in any way.

Go to the tomb of the Catholic king Fernando of Aragón and ask him why Catalans and Valencians joined what himself built :thumb001
OK, but your moorish brain have to understand a simple thing. That life goes on and they have all the right to try in their way. It's not something frozen and nobody can touch it.

[Cristiano viejo]

Telling Spaniards that they must accept the 'democratical will, of Catalans and literally 'let the land go, is like taking them for cucks.
Hope for Spaniards they don't accept this because their image and even maleness would be harmed. All Spaniards being right now over 20 would be sad until the end of their life, if they had to give a whole region without firing a bullet.

Dont worry, that will not happen. Catalan separatists like to make many noise but nothilg else. The most probably thing to happen is that their laders finish in jail.

No comment if we would have to go to Catalonia for a war... it would be hilarious :cool: in 24 hours the "revolt" would finish. Take in mind that more than half of Catalans are against separatism, too...

And ah, dont worry neither for Galicia, there the separatism is weak as fuck, they even can not rule the region, it is not like in Catalonia. Galicians vote massively PP, a pro-Spanish party.

[Cristiano viejo]

OK, but your moorish brain have to understand a simple thing. That life goes on and they have all the right to try in their way. It's not something frozen and nobody can touch it.

Your Middle Eastern brain does not understand that what an Albrownian says about Spain or Spanish issues means less than zero :mocking:

Worry for Kosovo and for collecting the garbage of Serbians to that not finish in Albania for once.

[Melki]

Portuguese is not more similar to Castilian than Catalan.
Let's compare with the Pater Noster

Castillan

Padre nuestro que estás en el Cielo,
santificado sea tu nombre,
venga a nosotros tu Reino,
hágase tu voluntad en la Tierra como en el Cielo,
danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día,
y perdona nuestras ofensas,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden,
no nos dejes caer en la tentación,
y líbranos del mal,

Portuguese

Pai nosso, que estás no céu,
Santificado seja o Vosso nome.
Venha a nós o Vosso reino.
Seja feita a Vossa vontade,
Assim na terra como no céu.
O pão nosso de cada dia nos dai hoje.
Perdoai as nossas ofensas
Assim como nós perdoamos a quem nos têm ofendido.
Não nos deixeis cair em tentação,
Mas livrai-nos do mal,

Catalan

Pare nostre, que esteu en el cel,
sigui santificat el vostre nom;
vingui a nosaltres el vostre regne;
faci´s la vostra voluntat,
així en la terra com en el cel.
El nostre pa de cada dia doneu-nos avui;
i perdoneu les nostres culpes,
així com nosaltres perdonem els nostres deutors;
i no permeteu que caiguem en la temptació,
ans deslliureu-nos del mal.
Amén!

At least, Catalan is as different as Portuguese.




[QUOTE=Cristiano viejo;4641134]
hahaha García, a very Catalan surname... hahaha
But yes, it is the most common surname there :cool:[/QUOTE ]

García is of Basque origin and means "bear".

[Cristiano viejo]

García is of Basque origin and means "bear".

Navarrese to be precise.

Portuguese: Pai nosso, que estás no céu
Castilian: Padre nuestro que estás en el cielo
Catalan: Pare nostre, que esteu en el cel

Yes, Castilian and Catalan are more alike.

[Laberia]

Your Middle Eastern brain does not understand that what an Albrownian says about Spain or Spanish issues means less than zero :mocking:

Worry for Kosovo and for collecting the garbage of Serbians to that not finish in Albania for once.

You see that you are exactly a moorish offspring? You lost the discussion at the first post. You Spaniards are really retards. You didn't learned nothing from the conflict with the Basques.

[Cristiano viejo]

You see that you are exactly a moorish offspring? You lost the discussion at the first post. You Spaniards are really retards. You didn't learned nothing from the conflict with the Basques.

At least we dont collect the garbage of Catalans as you do with that of Serbians, Ottoman offspring.

[Laberia]

At least we dont collect the garbage of Catalans as you do with that of Serbians, Ottoman offspring.

We don't gather the garbage of nobody idiot. You are the last person who can participate in this thread, because you are exactly an idiot. And you are trying to prove this in all ways.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Navarrese to be precise.

Portuguese: Pai nosso, que estás no céu
Castilian: Padre nuestro que estás en el cielo
Catalan: Pare nostre, que esteu en el cel

Yes, Castilian and Catalan are more alike.

Castilian and Catalan are not more similar than Portuguese and Castilian in my opinion. At least when written. Portuguese and Castilian belong to the West-Iberian language sub-branches while Catalan is an East-Iberian sub-branche.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1cc48c44a382d4156425061ee0866ef8


That doesn't mean that Catalan is something "alien" though, it is fairly understandable to a certain extent and has a high level of similarity too.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

We don't gather the garbage of nobody idiot. You are the last person who can participate in this thread, because you are exactly an idiot. And you are trying to prove this in all ways.

First the Serbian thread and now in a thread about Iberians.

I almost forgot your biggest dream is to live in Barcelona as a Muslim refugee one day.


Italy is my favorite country in Europe. But if i have the possibility to choose in which city i want to live, my choice is absolutely Barcelona.

[Cristiano viejo]

We don't gather the garbage of nobody idiot. You are the last person who can participate in this thread, because you are exactly an idiot. And you are trying to prove this in all ways.
I know you dont like but it is true, you can check in this documentary


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqkSH1YLXdg

I took the decency to watch it, do the same, suffer a bit and admit it.


Castilian and Catalan are not more similar than Portuguese and Castilian in my opinion. At least when written. Portuguese and Castilian belong to the West-Iberian language sub-branches while Catalan is an East-Iberian sub-branche.

That doesn't mean that Catalan is something "alien" though, it is fairly understandable to a certain extent and has a high level of similarity too.
When spoken, I dont understand a shit in Portuguese.


First the Serbian thread and now in a thread about Iberians.

I almost forgot your biggest dream is to live in Barcelona as a Muslim refugee one day.

hahaha good one xD

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

When spoken, I dont understand a shit in Portuguese.


As a Portuguese it is a lot easier for me to understand Castilian both written and spoken than Catalan, but that's just my opinion.

[Cristiano viejo]

As a Portuguese it is a lot easier for me to understand Castilian both written and spoken than Catalan, but that's just my opinion.

I am more familiarized with Catalan, obviously. Perhaps that is why I think Catalan is more similar to me.

[Laberia]

First the Serbian thread and now in a thread about Iberians.

I almost forgot your biggest dream is to live in Barcelona as a Muslim refugee one day.

In the servian thread you have been debunked as a troll and you escaped like a beaten dog.
What's the point with this quote out of context?
Vejrirartro, let me explain you something. You, viejo and many other Iberian members partecipate regularly in threads about Albanians. I have never said to you get out from the thread. I have explained to you with patience that you are totally idiots because you want to discuss about topics that you have no idea.
Meanwhile here, the hysterical moorish bitch viejo, lost the control after a single post. The Arab hot blood.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I am more familiarized with Catalan, obviously. Perhaps that is why I think Catalan is more similar to me.

Put in a table an Portuguese, an Castilian and an Catalan, they all can speak their native languages, we will find a way of understanding each other quite easily.

[Incal]

Just came back from Catalonia, I was there on Monday. Tons of people wearing yellow shirts and catalan flags. Not as many as other years from what I've heard.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In the servian thread you have been debunked as a troll and you escaped like a beaten dog.
What's the point with this quote out of context?
Vejrirartro, let me explain you something. You, viejo and many other Iberian members partecipate regularly in threads about Albanians. I have never said to you get out from the thread. I have explained to you with patience that you are totally idiots because you want to discuss about topics that you have no idea.
Meanwhile here, the hysterical moorish bitch viejo, lost the control after a single post. The Arab hot blood.

We can go on Albanian threads and comment about it because Albania once was conquered and belonged to Iberians, even if briefly. So it is part of our history and conquests. You on the other hand, have no business in Iberia.

[Cristiano viejo]

Meanwhile here, the hysterical moorish bitch viejo, lost the control after a single post. The Arab hot blood.
Dont cry and dont hide the fact that the Serbian garbage finishes in Albania.
You posted a fictitious Catalan dni´s and I just answered laughing because the surname García in them... later you insulted me quoting about the Kingdom of Valencia (as if you know something about Valencia or Catalonia haha)... and now you talk about the lose of the control? :lol:

[Laberia]

I know you dont like but it is true, you can check in this documentary


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqkSH1YLXdg

I took the decency to watch it, do the same, suffer a bit and admit it.


When spoken, I dont understand a shit in Portuguese.



hahaha good one xD

And i have explained many times that this video show your own blood, the gypsy gathering garbage. You still don't understand this?

[Cristiano viejo]

Just came back from Catalonia, I was there on Monday. Tons of people wearing yellow shirts and catalan flags. Not as many as other years from what I've heard.

How many of them were immigrants? I bet a lot.

Yes, the news talk about less people than other years.

[Cristiano viejo]

And i have explained many times that this video show your own blood, the gypsy gathering garbage. You still don't understand this?

Dont lose the control, Arabo-Ottoman. You have not watched the video, I did. Not only 100% Gypsy Albanians collect the Serbian gargabe but also non 100% Gypsy Albanians.

I know it is hard for you to accept this but your people clean the shit of the Serbians, the Greeks, the Macedonians etc and they carry it toward Albania to recycle it.

[Cristiano viejo]

We can go on Albanian threads and comment about it because Albania once was conquered and belonged to Iberians, even if briefly. So it is part of our history and conquests. You on the other hand, have no business in Iberia.

Good point. But notice how they prefer to idolize Ottomans rather than Alpha people like us...
It is their MENA mentality...

[Laberia]

Dont cry and dont hide the fact that the Serbian garbage finishes in Albania.
You posted a fictitious Catalan dni´s and I just answered laughing because the surname García in them... later you insulted me quoting about the Kingdom of Valencia (as if you know something about Valencia or Catalonia haha)... and now you talk about the lose of the control? :lol:

No little moor. You started to react like a hysterical bitch after this post:



Catalans or Valencians never had their own country. Not even the so-called Kigndom of Valencia was independent or a country since they belonged to Aragon in any way.

Go to the tomb of the Catholic king Fernando of Aragón and ask him why Catalans and Valencians joined what himself built :thumb001
OK, but your moorish brain have to understand a simple thing. That life goes on and they have all the right to try in their way. It's not something frozen and nobody can touch it.

[Laberia]

We can go on Albanian threads and comment about it because Albania once was conquered and belonged to Iberians, even if briefly. So it is part of our history and conquests. You on the other hand, have no business in Iberia.
In this case the answer is very simple, fuck you gypsy.

[Cristiano viejo]

No little moor. You started to react like a hysterical bitch after this post:

You said this, Serbian gargabe picker:


OK, but your moorish brain have to understand a simple thing. That life goes on and they have all the right to try in their way. It's not something frozen and nobody can touch it.

what proves you were mad as usual.

[Cristiano viejo]

In this case the answer is very simple, fuck you gypsy.

Now you are losing the control with Viriato.
Calm down, Serbian gargabe picker, calm down...

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

In this case the answer is very simple, fuck you gypsy.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZTQ5ZjQ5YTUtYzk5Ni00N2NmLTlhZWMtYzI3N2EwYTViY2 U2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTA0MjU0Ng@@._V1_UY1200_CR108,0, 630,1200_AL_.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6oNWRJwUMp8/VPF_nt2uaPI/AAAAAAAABQQ/43fVx3Wm6vk/s1600/Ben%2BYusuf.jpg

Even in the movie your people is portrayed as Moorish Gypsies xD

[Laberia]

You said this, Serbian gargabe picker:



what proves you were mad as usual.

Viejo, you little moor, you are totally confused.
https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i-w600/keep-calm-and-free-catalonia-13.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZTQ5ZjQ5YTUtYzk5Ni00N2NmLTlhZWMtYzI3N2EwYTViY2 U2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTA0MjU0Ng@@._V1_UY1200_CR108,0, 630,1200_AL_.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6oNWRJwUMp8/VPF_nt2uaPI/AAAAAAAABQQ/43fVx3Wm6vk/s1600/Ben%2BYusuf.jpg

When Spaniards conquered Durres (for the next three years) they described the zone as insane and people as poor as fuck, beggars and some Jews.

[Cristiano viejo]

Viejo, you little moor, you are totally confused.
You are out of control, Ottoman spermatozoon.

How many kgs of Serbian garbage have you collected today?

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

When Spaniards conquered Durres (for the next three years) they described the zone as insane and people as poor as fuck, beggars and some Jews.

But even after so many centuries they still love us. You can see by the amount of Albanians that spend their holidays in Iberia. Even Laberia's biggest dream is to immigrate to Barcelona. He visited it once with his family and fell in love with it.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CcdPw34tLMc/T7faYMASy2I/AAAAAAAAAwA/qsTGDLi7ANU/s320/Afellay+Barcelona+muslim.jpg

[Laberia]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZTQ5ZjQ5YTUtYzk5Ni00N2NmLTlhZWMtYzI3N2EwYTViY2 U2XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTA0MjU0Ng@@._V1_UY1200_CR108,0, 630,1200_AL_.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6oNWRJwUMp8/VPF_nt2uaPI/AAAAAAAABQQ/43fVx3Wm6vk/s1600/Ben%2BYusuf.jpg

Even in the movie your people is portrayed as Moorish Gypsies xD

Seriously? I have no doubt that you are trying to win the gold medal as the most idiot member of the year 2017 in Apricity. And you are doing a great job.
What are you trying to prove with this movie, Made in Bollywood? I have to remember you that every time you start to troll with this movie, you always finish with a kick in your gypsy ass.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Seriously? I have no doubt that you are trying to win the gold medal as the most idiot member of the year 2017 in Apricity. And you are doing a great job.
What are you trying to prove with this movie, Made in Bollywood? I have to remember you that every time you start to troll with this movie, you always finish with a kick in your gypsy ass.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-31t3Tad-Vo0/VtCy0WbkYRI/AAAAAAAAQIY/iipf6YXnTHY/s400/EL%2BCID%2B-%2BEL%2BCID%2BCAMPEADOR%2B-%2BRODRIGO%2BD%25C3%258DAZ%2BDE%2BVIVAR%2B-%2BCHARLTON%2BHESTON%2B-%2BCINE%2BB%25C3%2589LICO%2B-%2BEL%2BFANCINE%2B-%2B%25C3%2581LVAROGP%2B-%2B%25C3%2581LVARO%2BGARC%25C3%258DA%2B-%2BEL%2BTROBLOGDITA%2B-%2BDO%25C3%2591A%2BJIMENA%2B-%2BMOROS.jpg

Accurate Albenian description. Great movie, I recommend it.

[Laberia]

But even after so many centuries they still love us. You can see by the amount of Albanians that spend their holidays in Iberia. Even Laberia's biggest dream is to immigrate to Barcelona. He visited it once with his family and fell in love with it.

.jpg

Sure, in a FREE CATALONIA.

https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i-w600/keep-calm-and-free-catalonia-13.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

Sure, in a FREE CATALONIA.

Thumb up for you, my little Tursk!! that means you will never come to Spain Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhuuuuuuuuujuuuuuuuu :wohoo::wohoo::wohoo:

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Sure, in a FREE CATALONIA.

I am not concerned about Catalonia. It's not my business, it is a Spanish issue. I am not like other dumb non-Spanish members who think their opinion about this issue matters. I only care the impact it might have in Portugal since we are big economic partners with Spain. I am only here to tell you to leave Iberian affairs to Iberians.

Being stuck for too long at home in a blood feud is making you go crazy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FoQs8e6WWY

[Laberia]

Thumb up for you, my little Tursk!! that means you will never come to Spain Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhuuuuuuuuujuuuuuuuu :wohoo::wohoo::wohoo:

Even a bunch of gypsy women don't talk so much like you both.

[Bruchus]

Can pseudo-Iberians opine?

[Cristiano viejo]

Even a bunch of gypsy women don't talk so much like you both.

Dont talk about being a woman very high, at least Spanish women dont behave like men.
Lack of true men in Albania perhaps, for this Gypsy tradition?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UUikqpotiE

I am watching this documentary just right now and OH MY CHRISTIAN GOD, OH MY CHRISTIAN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Geni]

What is with the referendum ?

[Melki]

And Portuguese is a true ethnicity because they live isolated since 1000 years ago.

So, Basques, who speak a completely different language, not related to the IE family, and whose semi-pagan traditions root back from pre-Roman times, are not an ethnicity because they never had their own State??? :lol00002: :crazy:

Stop with your hypocrisy, CV. We all know you don't want to offend Viriato and your other potential Portuguese allies, but deep in your mind, you consider Portuguese people like a minor substrate of the glorious Spanish Imperium.

[Geni]

:clap::icon_yes:

[Cristiano viejo]

So, Basques, who speak a completely different language, not related to the IE family, and whose semi-pagan traditions root back from pre-Roman times, are not an ethnicity because they never had their own State??? :lol00002: :crazy:
Basques are not able to speak Euskera, they speak Castilian daily. FACT.

Basques are Catholic as fuck, I could not laugh more with that of "their semi-pagan traditions" jajajajajaja
They are so Catholic that they are famous for their Carlist past.


Stop with your hypocrisy, CV. We all know you don't want to offend Viriato and your other potential Portuguese allies, but deep in your mind, you consider Portuguese people like a minor substrate of the glorious Spanish Imperium.
I dont need allies, not my fault that lefties and antis like you or that Albanian mosquito put all of us in the same Iberian basket.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Stop with your hypocrisy, CV. We all know you don't want to offend Viriato and your other potential Portuguese allies, but deep in your mind, you consider Portuguese people like a minor substrate of the glorious Spanish Imperium.

You are aware that Portugal is much older than Spain, right? Portugal did not become independent from Spain as Spain did not exist until 1492. When Portugal became independent it was from Leon in 1143.

[Melki]

Basques are not able to speak Euskera, they speak Castilian daily. FACT.

Basques are Catholic as fuck, I could not laugh more with that of "their semi-pagan traditions" jajajajajaja
They are so Catholic that they are famous for their Carlist past.
.

Indeed, this is Catholic as fuck

http://zupimages.net/up/17/37/9xq6.jpg (http://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=17/37/9xq6.jpg)

The white bear with ram horns (looking like a Wampa from Star Wars) meant to celebrate the end of winter.

And for your sake, learn that Navarre is one of the 7 historical Basque provinces. Obviously, you never ventured yourself outside Bilbao or San Sebastian, because you might have heard people speaking Euskera.

[Sizzo]

Castillan

Padre nuestro que estás en el Cielo,
santificado sea tu nombre,
venga a nosotros tu Reino,
hágase tu voluntad en la Tierra como en el Cielo,
danos hoy nuestro pan de cada día,
y perdona nuestras ofensas,
como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden,
no nos dejes caer en la tentación,
y líbranos del mal,

Portuguese

Pai nosso, que estás no céu,
Santificado seja o Vosso nome.
Venha a nós o Vosso reino.
Seja feita a Vossa vontade,
Assim na terra como no céu.
O pão nosso de cada dia nos dai hoje.
Perdoai as nossas ofensas
Assim como nós perdoamos a quem nos têm ofendido.
Não nos deixeis cair em tentação,
Mas livrai-nos do mal,

Catalan

Pare nostre, que esteu en el cel,
sigui santificat el vostre nom;
vingui a nosaltres el vostre regne;
faci´s la vostra voluntat,
així en la terra com en el cel.
El nostre pa de cada dia doneu-nos avui;
i perdoneu les nostres culpes,
així com nosaltres perdonem els nostres deutors;
i no permeteu que caiguem en la temptació,
ans deslliureu-nos del mal.
Amén!

At least, Catalan is as different as Portuguese.


Here's the Bergamask version (Eastern Lombardian, Gallo-Italic branch):

Pàder nòst che te sét in d'ol sél,
a 'l sìes santefegàd ol tò nòm.
A 'l vègne ol tò règn, la sìes facia la tò uluntà
cume 'n sél e ixé 'n tèra.
Dam incoeu ol nòst pà de toeucc i dé.
Rimèt a nóter i nòs-cc dèbecc,
cume nóter a m' gh'i rimèt ai nòs-cc debidùr.
Fam mia burlà 'n tentassiù,
ma lìberem d'ol mal.

https://vocaroo.com/i/s0y1p8tDUgW9

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Indeed, this is Catholic as fuck

http://zupimages.net/up/17/37/9xq6.jpg (http://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=17/37/9xq6.jpg)

The white bear with ram horns (looking like a Wampa from Star Wars) meant to celebrate the end of winter.

And for your sake, learn that Navarre is one of the 7 historical Basque provinces. Obviously, you never ventured yourself outside Bilbao or San Sebastian, because you might have heard people speaking Euskera.

There are those traditions all across Iberia, not just Basque country...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNMOL864v0

Portuguese Caretos. Does that mean our population is not overwhelmingly Catholic?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Sit down and wait for it. You, Laberia, and other anti-Spanish haters, will end up like this:

https://attaboyplumbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/waiting-269x300.gifMeh sounds like you want to force them to be part of spain. Its their right to decide if they want to be independant

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Here's the Bergamask version (Eastern Lombardian, Gallo-Italic branch):

Pàder nòst che te sét in d'ol sél,
a 'l sìes santefegàd ol tò nòm.
A 'l vègne ol tò règn, la sìes facia la tò uluntà
cume 'n sél e ixé 'n tèra.
Dam incoeu ol nòst pà de toeucc i dé.
Rimèt a nóter i nòs-cc dèbecc,
cume nóter a m' gh'i rimèt ai nòs-cc debidùr.
Fam mia burlà 'n tentassiù,
ma lìberem d'ol mal.

https://vocaroo.com/i/s0y1p8tDUgW9

Surprisingly it was a lot easier for me to understand when spoken than when written. Usually it is the other way around.

[JohnSmith]

I do not understand these small independence movements. It just causes a lot of unwanted animosity towards their fellow countrymen. The rich Catalonia region subsidizes the poorer areas. That is how it is suppose to work!! West Germany wanted to united with East Germany and the West still subsidizes the East, you are stronger united as one.

[Cristiano viejo]

Indeed, this is Catholic as fuck

http://zupimages.net/up/17/37/9xq6.jpg (http://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=17/37/9xq6.jpg)

The white bear with ram horns (looking like a Wampa from Star Wars) meant to celebrate the end of winter.

And for your sake, learn that Navarre is one of the 7 historical Basque provinces. Obviously, you never ventured yourself outside Bilbao or San Sebastian, because you might have heard people speaking Euskera.
Dont be ridicolous, that customes can be found everywhere in Spain.

Navarra is the true homeland of Basques, to start. And no, Basques dont speak in Basque, they speak in Castilian.

And ah!, they did have their own state, unlike Catalans or Valencians. Not my fault that they asked themselves to join Castilla. Guipúzcoa in the 1200 (although it was de facto since 1134), full Álava in 1334 (although the 60% of the province already belonged to Castilla in the 1200 too) and Vizcaya in the 1339.

http://www.abc.es/espana/20141021/abci-pais-vasco-anexion-castilla-201410141745.html

You would suicide yourself if you knew how many villages and cities were founded by Castilians in Vascongadas jejejeje
Bilbao for example :)

[Melki]

I do not understand these small independence movements. It just causes a lot of unwanted animosity towards their fellow countrymen. The rich Catalonia region subsidizes the poorer areas. That is how it is suppose to work!! West Germany wanted to united with East Germany and the West still subsidizes the East, you are stronger united as one.

You simply don't understand because you come from a country where interstate boundaries are uniform, artificial and generally rectangular-shaped. Europe is a complex continent. There are currently 50 internationally-recognized sovereign states (nation-states, city-states or confederations). But in reality, there should be over 1000 of them.

[JohnSmith]

You simply don't understand because you come from a country where interstate boundaries are uniform, artificial and generally rectangular-shaped. Europe is a complex continent. There are currently 50 internationally-recognized sovereign states (nation-states, city-states or confederations). But in reality, there should be over 1000 of them.

They should be worried about more important things than this. Pride sometimes is very much a hindrance to progress.

[Melki]

They should be worried about more important things than this. Pride sometimes is very much a hindrance to progress.

Well, Catalan independentist movement is first and foremost linked to economic issues.

[JohnSmith]

Well, Catalan independentist movement is first and foremost linked to economic issues.

It is division politics.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

https://lasxtribus.wordpress.com

[Laberia]

Thumb up for you, my little Tursk!! that means you will never come to Spain Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhuuuuuuuuujuuuuuuuu :wohoo::wohoo::wohoo:


Behind the Picture
'Spanish Village': W. Eugene Smith's Landmark Photo Essay
Ben Cosgrove
Mar 10, 2013
Originally published in the April 9, 1951, issue of LIFE magazine, W. Eugene Smith's photo essay, "Spanish Village," has been lauded for more than six decades as the most moving photographic portrait ever made of daily life in rural Spain during the rule of dictator Francisco Franco. But, as the years have passed, the most chilling image from the piece—the closed, hard faces of three members of Franco’s feared Guardia Civil—has been exalted to a point where the essays' other masterful, evocative pictures have been largely forgotten.

For countless people around the world, including photography buffs who really ought to know better, Smith's Guardia Civil photograph is the "Spanish Village" essay.
Here, LIFE.com presents "Spanish Village" in its entirety. Even as the faces in the essay's most famous picture evince the cruelty and arrogance often assumed by small men granted great power over others, other photographs illuminate the timeless rhythms of a small, isolated Spanish town of the last century, about which LIFE wrote: "It lives in ancient poverty and faith."

In the 1951 article that accompanied Smith's pictures, the magazine told its readers:

The village of Deleitosa, a place of about 2,300 peasant people, sits on the high, dry, western Spanish tableland called Estramadura, about halfway between Madrid and the border of Portugal. Its name means "delightful," which it no longer is, and its origins are obscure, though they may go back a thousand years to Spain's Moorish period. In any event it is very old and LIFE photographer Eugene Smith, wandering off the main road into the village, found that its ways had advanced little since medieval times.

Many Deleitosans have never seen a railroad because the nearest one is 25 miles away. Mail comes in by burro. The nearest telephone is 12 miles away in another town. Deleitosa's water system still consists of the sort of aqueducts and open wells from which villagers have drawn water for centuries . . . and the streets smell strongly of the villagers' donkeys and pigs.

[A] small movie theater, which shows some American films, sits among the sprinkling of little shops near the main square. But the village scene is dominated now as always by the high, brown structure of the 16th century church, the center of society in Catholic Deleitosa. And the lives of the villagers are dominated as always by the bare and brutal problems of subsistence. For Deleitosa, barren of history, unfavored by nature, reduced by wars, lives in poverty—a poverty shared by nearly all and relieved only by the seasonal work of the soil, and the faith that sustains most Deleitosans from the hour of First Communion until the simple funeral that marks one's end.
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/02_00768078.jpg?quality=85&w=433
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/03_00768082.jpg?quality=85&w=833
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/04_village06.jpg?quality=85&w=437
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/49/3b/8e/493b8ec6749d7689ea9a9214a362ffc2--eugene-smith-eugene-oneill.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/O7HFhpB.jpg
https://geografiamungia.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/deleitosa-14.png
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/05_32614f.jpg?quality=85&w=716
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/06_32614e.jpg?quality=85&w=701
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/09_village04.jpg?quality=85&w=426
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/10_00768081.jpg?quality=85&w=787
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/12_111368072.jpg?quality=85&w=437
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/13_32614b.jpg?quality=85&w=723
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/16_05897867.jpg?quality=85&w=396
Excuse me, what have to do with Europe this people? It`s year 1951, not 1914. It`s a free country, not an invaded country. It`s a country who for 500 years has stolen half of the world, not a country who for 450 years was under ottoman occupation. Excuse me, even pants for their kids didn` t had your ancestors?
Let see your country, pordhu-gay.
Luís Carlos Almeida da Cunha, ComM (born 17 November 1986), commonly known as Nani (Portuguese pronunciation: [naˈni]) or Luís Nani,[5][6][7] is a Portuguese professional footballer who plays as a winger for Italian club Lazio, on loan from Valencia, and the Portugal national team. Although predominantly right-footed, he has been utilised on the left wing on many occasions.
He was raised by his aunt Antónia in the Santa Filomena estate in the Amadora district of Lisbon after being abandoned by his parents.[10] At the age of five, his father left for a holiday in Cape Verde but never returned and when he was 12 years old, his mother left Portugal to start a new life in the Netherlands.[10] Nani has nine siblings from his mother, of which he is the youngest, and five from his father.[11]

This is Santa Filomena estate in the Amadora district of Lisbon:
http://cdn.vladsokhin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/filomena_slum_01.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/14/article-2049350-0E607CCE00000578-933_468x297.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/14/article-2049350-0E607CD200000578-120_468x312.jpg
Look your ancestors as emigrants in France:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/05/20/blogs/20rdv-portuguese-art/20rdv-portuguese-art-tmagArticle.jpg
Gérald Bloncourt's photograph of a Portuguese girl in a slum outside Paris in the 1960s.Credit Gérald Bloncourt

[Laberia]

Excuse me, do you consider Europeans this people
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/01_05897866.jpg?quality=85&w=732
Look the ears of the third person viejo. I am sure that he can fly.

[Cristiano viejo]

Dont repeat the posts after people have warned to you that you obviated the pictures that you thought it was convenient.

[Sacrificed Ram]

I did read California.

[Laberia]

Dont repeat the posts after people have warned to you that you obviated the pictures that you thought it was convenient.

I posted an article from a respected source and from an respected author you moron, not a youtube video.

Originally published in the April 9, 1951, issue of LIFE magazine, W. Eugene Smith's photo essay, "Spanish Village," has been lauded for more than six decades as the most moving photographic portrait ever made of daily life in rural Spain during the rule of dictator Francisco Franco.

BTW, do you think that he can fly?

[Cristiano viejo]

I posted an article from a respected source and from an respected author you moron, not a youtube video.


BTW, do you think that he can fly?

I know, stupid. But you chose the oportune pictures, you obviated lot of them. Obviously tou chose the darker pictures, with bad quality like that last. What is wrong with them, that they are ugly, specially that on the right? Is this your best shoot, little Tursk? pufff

[Laberia]

I know, stupid. But you chose the oportune pictures, you obviated lot of them. Obviously tou chose the darker pictures, with bad quality like that last. What is wrong with them, that they are ugly, specially that on the right? Is this your best shoot, little Tursk? pufff

No idiot, i didn't chose nothing. There is a limit in posting photos in one single post. Are you discussing this authenticity of those photos?

[Cristiano viejo]

No idiot, i didn't chose nothing. There is a limit in posting photos in one single post. Are you discussing this authenticity of those photos?

the limit... hahaha what an excuse. In the original documentary there were tons of them... but you posted the darker and with worst quality.
Coincidence? Jaaaaaa

[Laberia]

the limit... hahaha what an excuse. In the original documentary there were tons of them... but you posted the darker and with worst quality.
Coincidence? Jaaaaaa

You are free to post all the photos.

[Cristiano viejo]

You are free to post all the photos.

Sebastianus already did, and you ignored it.

[catgeorge]

Not much difference between Madrid and Barcelona when I was there. As a Greek parallel it is like saying Athens and Thessaloniki ... and we would never ever declare something different to Athens through good and bad times we are together.

[Damião de Góis]

So, you think Portuguese, whose language is even more similar to Castillan than Catalan, are not an ethnicity and thus, should be absorbed by Spain?
Why Portuguese should be a distinct sovereign nation and not Catalans or Valencians? I'm curious to read your response.

It's simple, 800+ years of being a country with our own language and rule (with an interruption of 60 years in the late 1500s early 1600s). Catalans an Valencias are all bilingual at least (a lot are only castillian speakers) and Castillian surnames are widespread over there.


Once again you are more familiar with the history of Yakutia or Kirghizistan than with Europe. And Europe is far more complex and rich than your horse-riding Turanid world.

After the Reconquista, there were not only one Spain but several. Kingdom of Aragon was first as mighty as the Kingdom of Castile, successor of the Kingdom of León.
Through dynastic unions and politics of marriage, each kingdom expanded its influence, absorbing principalties and duchies. Queen Isabella of Castile married King Ferdinand of Aragon, who centralised royal power. That's when the word Spain began to be used on a regular basis. Castillan became Spain's lingua franca.

Eventually, even the old rival Kingdom of Portugal was freewillingly absorbed by the Spanish crown, and remained Spanish for 60 years. They reconquered their independence, helped by England and France, after several revolts and riots, to which Catalans also took part.
Of couse, I simplified the whole story because it's difficult to summarise the long history of Spain.

Without these revolts, Portuguese would have perhaps never seceded and today, Portugal would still be Spain's 18th autonomous community. All the Spanish Apricitians like CV, alnortedelsur and Autrigón would negate that Portuguese are a true ethnicity.
I bet my shirt that they would claim that the Portuguese language is only Castillan but with "ç", "lh" and "ão", "õe"...

Well, keep in mind that Catalan is a language more distinct from Spanish than Portuguese or Galician.

Seems you are not very familiar with our history either. "Eventually" we were absorved "freewillingly"?

Actually, after the disastrous Battle of Alcácer Quibir, King Sebastian died heirless and a sucession crisis emerged. King Phillip of Spain, who was Sebastian's uncle made a claim to Portugal's throne. Some of the portuguese nobility supported this, but some other didn't. A three year war followed with Phillip being the winner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Portuguese_Succession

60 years later and after losing much of our Eastern Empire, and following a war that lasted 28 years we regained independence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Restoration_War

Maybe that is what Catalonia is missing, a 28 year war for independence.

[alnortedelsur]

In the servian thread you have been debunked as a troll and you escaped like a beaten dog.
What's the point with this quote out of context?
Vejrirartro, let me explain you something. You, viejo and many other Iberian members partecipate regularly in threads about Albanians. I have never said to you get out from the thread. I have explained to you with patience that you are totally idiots because you want to discuss about topics that you have no idea.
Meanwhile here, the hysterical moorish bitch viejo, lost the control after a single post. The Arab hot blood.

You talk about Iberian issues without knowing a shit, and being none of your business.

[alnortedelsur]

No little moor. You started to react like a hysterical bitch after this post:

OK, but your moorish brain have to understand a simple thing. That life goes on and they have all the right to try in their way. It's not something frozen and nobody can touch it.

Spain is one and indivisible for ever and ever, and its integrity has to be like frozen in time, and never touched by the selfish and corrupt Catalan political class or by anybody.

[alnortedelsur]

Meh sounds like you want to force them to be part of spain. Its their right to decide if they want to be independant

Catalans have always been, currently ARE, and ALWAYS will be Spanish. Deal with it.

[alnortedelsur]

Well, Catalan independentist movement is first and foremost linked to economic issues.

Then, for selfish economic issues coming from the corrupt Catalan political class. Then, Catalan independentism is not rightfully justified.

[Laberia]

You talk about Iberian issues without knowing a shit, and being none of your business.



Spain is one and indivisible for ever and ever, and its integrity has to be like frozen in time, and never touched by the selfish and corrupt Catalan political class or by anybody.
From your second post we understand that it's you who don't understand nothing. It's not you who decide if this topic is my business or not. I never said to your retard compatriots that posting in threads about Albanians is not their business. I explained with patience that they are just idiots. But they were not interested on this, they wanted just to troll us because in their fucked brain they think that this a way that will allow you Iberians to be considered no more the cigans of Europe. It's something that they are doing from years, and i didn't knew the existence of this forums when your compatriots were regularly attacking my people. Have a look at the signature of this Arab scum viejo.
From the other side my posts are always full with serious references and very correct. If you feel pain in the butt meanwhile you read my posts, honestly, i don't care.
FREEDOM FOR CATALONIA.

[Lluna Plena]

https://lasxtribus.wordpress.com
The truth is out there...

[Potentia]

I really don't understand why some Catalans want independence.

I mean, do they really have it that bad under Spain? No.

[Lluna Plena]

"Nation may refer to a large group of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history. Nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”. Nation carries varying meanings, and the connotation of the term has changed over time.
Catalonia is not (yet) an State, but definitively it has all the attributes of a Nation. Catalunya is a large (7 million people, like Switzerland, and more than Norway, almost two times Ireland)) group of people who share a common language (Catalan), culture, ethnicity - although this is a fuzzy concept - descent and history. The History of Catalunya merged with the history of Spain in the XV Century ("Compromiso de Caspe") whan, after dinastic struggles, the Crown of the Kingdom of Catalunya y Aragon went to Fernando de Antequera. Since then Catalunya is part of the Kingdom of Spain."

The more the state stops us, the more we will push for freedom!

[Potentia]

"Nation may refer to a large group of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history. Nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”. Nation carries varying meanings, and the connotation of the term has changed over time.
Catalonia is not (yet) an State, but definitively it has all the attributes of a Nation. Catalunya is a large (7 million people, like Switzerland, and more than Norway, almost two times Ireland)) group of people who share a common language (Catalan), culture, ethnicity - although this is a fuzzy concept - descent and history. The History of Catalunya merged with the history of Spain in the XV Century ("Compromiso de Caspe") whan, after dinastic struggles, the Crown of the Kingdom of Catalunya y Aragon went to Fernando de Antequera. Since then Catalunya is part of the Kingdom of Spain."

The more the state stops us, the more we will push for freedom!

You share a history with Spain as well?

Why should you Catalans be the ones to get independence? Why not the Galicians? Or the Basques? Or the Leonese? Or even the Andalusians?

[Lluna Plena]

I really don't understand why some Catalans want independence.

I mean, do they really have it that bad under Spain? No.

Yes, off course we have. Read and learn more about our conflict...

A bit old documentary, but stil valid....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htjElfI4IY8

[Potentia]

Yes, off course we have. Read and learn more about our conflict...

A bit old documentary, but stil valid....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htjElfI4IY8

I seriously doubt that you have it that bad.

Take France, for example. They suppress their minority culture, and make everyone follow the cosmopolitan culture. Spain doesn't do that.

Furthermore, Spain is a democracy now. They're not ruled by Franco anymore, no one is trying to destroy your cultural heritage.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

Its high time you know these imposters known spaniards are crypto pharisees.Click on the link and you will understand why they wanted the real Spanish identity https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?132958-Historians-note-that-Odin-who-was-a-very-popular-Thracian-ruler-Thracians-a-hidden-history

[Melki]

Then, for selfish economic issues coming from the corrupt Catalan political class. Then, Catalan independentism is not rightfully justified.

The CDC (Democratic Convergence of Catalonia) before it was renamed into PDeCAT (Catalan European Democratic Party) last year, was involved in scandals of illegal party funding by business partners.
But honestly, do you know a single political party reputed for its honest practices? Me not.

It doesn't change the fact that each ethnicity in the world should have the right to self-determination.
If I were you, I will be more worried about the true chaos reigning in Venezuela, on the brink of civil war.

[Incal]

TBH, there are bigger differences between regions of Italy, Germany or France than between Catalonia and other spanish regions for example. Most separatists are just spoiled, selfish brats that want to take advantage of Spain's concessions. Spain should have followed France's approach in that particular regard...

[Melki]

TBH, there are bigger differences between regions of Italy, Germany or France than between Catalonia and other spanish regions for example. Most separatists are just spoiled, selfish brats that want to take advantage of Spain's concessions. Spain should have followed France's approach in that particular regard...

I agree for France, home of various ethnicities (Romance, Germanic, Celtic, Basques... not to mention the Amerindian tribes living in the Amazonian rainforest in Guiana or the Kanaks and Polynesians living in the Pacific)...
But why Italy and Germany? These countries are ethnically more homogeneous than Spain. Especially Germany, where everybody is Deutsch, let aside a handful of scattered Sorbians, Danes and Frisians.

[Cristiano viejo]

TBH, there are bigger differences between regions of Italy, Germany or France than between Catalonia and other spanish regions for example. Most separatists are just spoiled, selfish brats that want to take advantage of Spain's concessions. Spain should have followed France's approach in that particular regard...
True, France is expert in curtaling the Catalan rights.
Not surprise why Catalan separatists use to burn the French flag 24/7.


From your second post we understand that it's you who don't understand nothing. It's not you who decide if this topic is my business or not. I never said to your retard compatriots that posting in threads about Albanians is not their business. I explained with patience that they are just idiots. But they were not interested on this, they wanted just to troll us because in their fucked brain they think that this a way that will allow you Iberians to be considered no more the cigans of Europe. It's something that they are doing from years, and i didn't knew the existence of this forums when your compatriots were regularly attacking my people. Have a look at the signature of this Arab scum viejo.
From the other side my posts are always full with serious references and very correct. If you feel pain in the butt meanwhile you read my posts, honestly, i don't care.
FREEDOM FOR CATALONIA.

You live in a parallel word. It is Albanians, due their high criminal rates, who are known as the Gypsies of Europe.
Ask yourself why everybody thinks so, Jehan in France, Lily in England, Danielion in Belgium, etc etc etc etc

[Incal]

But why Italy and Germany? These countries are ethnically more homogeneous than Spain. Especially Germany, where everybody is Deutsch, let aside a handful of scattered Sorbians, Danes and Frisians.

EVERY European country is formed of various tribes. The difference is that most european citizens are not as childish and immature as catalan separatists. I lived one year in Baden-Württemberg which is where part of my family hails from. The people in this area, the Swabians, could be considered the german "catalans": their region is one of the richest in Germany (along with Munich) and as most German regions they have their own language (or dialect whatever) and customs. Nevertheless, you will never see a Swabian acting as a childish brat and speaking schwbäbisch with people who are not from there, they just speak in their tongue with family, friends, neighbors, etc. Also, they don't whine everyday about being leeched by the rest for being the richest; they just go on with their lives, work for a greater good and even make jokes about being Swabian:

http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/media.media.a3276bf6-0e4b-475e-829c-8c2329f6bec7.normalized.jpg

[Incal]

True, France is expert in curtaling the Catalan rights.
Not surprise why Catalan separatists use to burn the French flag 24/7.

Indeed, said by Valls himself:


Ante la reivindicación de algunos nacionalistas corsos de dar un carácter «cooficial» a la lengua corsa, el ministro del Interior, Manuel Valls, nacido en Barcelona, hijo de un gran pintor figurativo, puntualizó recientemente la posición oficial del Estado, con motivo de un viaje a Córcega: «Solo hay una lengua oficial de la República, el francés. No es concebible que haya en nuestro territorio una segunda lengua oficial».

http://www.abc.es/espana/20130914/abci-cataluna-franci-201309132024.html

[Melki]

EVERY European country is formed of various tribes. The difference is that most european citizens are not as childish and immature as catalan separatists. I lived one year in Baden-Württemberg which is where part of my family hails from. The people in this area, the Swabians, could be considered the german "catalans": their region is one of the richest in Germany (along with Munich) and as most German regions they have their own language (or dialect whatever) and customs. Nevertheless, you will never see a Swabian acting as a childish brat and speaking schwbäbisch with people who are not from there, they just speak in their tongue with family, friends, neighbors, etc. Also, they don't whine everyday about being leeched by the rest for being the richest; they just go on with their lives, work for a greater good and even make jokes about being Swabian:

http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/media.media.a3276bf6-0e4b-475e-829c-8c2329f6bec7.normalized.jpg

Swabian is not a language, it's an Alemannic dialect of Oberdeutsch similar to those spoken in Alsace and Switzerland.

Catalan is not a dialect, it's a distinct Romance language (unlike Valencian which is a variant of Catalan, contrary to what Valencians claim).

If according to you, Catalan is only a Spanish dialect, what about Portuguese then?

[Cristiano viejo]

Swabian is not a language, it's an Alemannic dialect of Oberdeutsch similar to those spoken in Alsace and Switzerland.

Catalan is not a dialect, it's a distinct Romance language (unlike Valencian which is a variant of Catalan, contrary to what Valencians claim).

If according to you, Catalan is only a Spanish dialect, what about Portuguese then?
If you said that in Valencia they would probably kill you.

Your fight is found in the wrong bordier, Melkiades. You should fight for the Catalan rights where you live, in France.

[Melki]

If you said that in Valencia they would probably kill you.

Your fight is found in the wrong bordier, Melkiades. You should fight for the Catalan rights where you live, in France.

I don't care about what Valencians think, linguists are on my side.

And if Northern Catalonia (Roussillon) wanted to join the separatist movement, it would be none of my business.

[Incal]

Swabian is not a language, it's an Alemannic dialect of Oberdeutsch similar to those spoken in Alsace and Switzerland.

Catalan is not a dialect, it's a distinct Romance language (unlike Valencian which is a variant of Catalan, contrary to what Valencians claim).

If according to you, Catalan is only a Spanish dialect, what about Portuguese then?

I never said Catalan is a spanish dialect, it is Romance. But I mentioned that as an anecdote, it seems you base your whole argument on linguistics, which to me, is totally secondary.

And Portuguese comes from Galician.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Catalans have always been, currently ARE, and ALWAYS will be Spanish. Deal with it.? If they dont want to be spanish they dont have to. Why are you being tyrannical?

[Melki]

I never said Catalan is a spanish dialect, it is Romance. But I mentioned that as an anecdote, it seems you base your whole argument on linguistics, which to me, is totally secondary.

And Portuguese comes from Galician.

Linguistics is not the main argument in what makes a national identity. How many people speak fluent Gaelic Irish? Just a few. Yet, it didn't prevent the Republic of Ireland from gaining its independence in 1922.

And yes, the Portuguese language evolved from what eventually became Galician. Are Galicians a distinct people with a singular identity? Obviously yes, even though the Galician language was so heavily influenced by Castilian that for any Spaniard it's much easier to comprehend than Catalan.

[Sebastianus Rex]

I never said Catalan is a spanish dialect, it is Romance. But I mentioned that as an anecdote, it seems you base your whole argument on linguistics, which to me, is totally secondary.

And Portuguese comes from Galician.

The name of the language was galego-portugues or galaico-portugues not simply galego/galician.