Eastern Germans of Slavic descent or Western Poles of Germanic descent?

[Lavrentis]

Which one of the two is more correct?

[Ülev]

West Poland include Pomerania (Pomorze), Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) and Silesia (Śląsk) but not more western regions like Lubusz Voivodschip, West Pomerania or Lower Silesia were lives people resettled from Lviv, Belarus or Lithuania.Warmia and Masuria, Lubusz voivodeship, Western Pomerania and Lower Silesia = so called Recovered for one or 'lost' for the second Territories --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Curzon_line_en.svg

these regions are now genetically, culturally and mentally Eastern Poland

[Peterski]

Which one of the two is more correct?

Depends.

For example here are my results (West Polish) and Austrian (South-East German) in DNA Land:

http://i.imgur.com/vbmbKgw.png

https://s21.postimg.io/85gxajk9z/Austrian.png

As you can see we are both 1/2 Slavic, but he is more Southern Euro, and I'm more NW Euro.

However, North-East Germans (Prussians etc.) will not score as much of Southern Euro.

[Peterski]

West Polish vs. South-Eastern German (Austrian):

Northern Slavic = 55% vs. 49%
North-West Euro = 36% vs. 25%
Southern Euro = 9% vs. 24%
Ambiguous = 0% vs. 2%

This is me vs. Noricum (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?594-noricum), but our results are typical.

[Lavrentis]

Depends.

For example here are my results (West Polish) and Austrian (South-East German) in DNA Land:

http://i.imgur.com/vbmbKgw.png

https://s21.postimg.io/85gxajk9z/Austrian.png

As you can see we are both 1/2 Slavic, but he is more Southern Euro, and I'm more NW Euro.

However, North-East Germans (Prussians etc.) will not score as much of Southern Euro.

But on average, which one is the most correct? Some people in this forum say that East Germans have Slavic ancestry, and some others say that Western Poles have Germanic ancestry. However, only one of these two options is more possible to exist.

[JohnSmith]

I consider Slavic and Germanic to be more of a cultural identity vs. a rather genetic one.

I think it depends on the cultures and traditions of the people ,, are they were Germanic or Slavic? IDK

I think the Slavic and Germanic languages sounds very different from each other, when I here it spoken.

[Peterski]

But on average, which one is the most correct? Some people in this forum say that East Germans have Slavic ancestry, and some others say that Western Poles have Germanic ancestry. However, only one of these two options is more possible to exist.

Probably saying that East Germans have Slavic ancestry is more correct.

They are kind of like Pontic Greeks.

Some Pontic Greeks have no detectable actual Greek ancestry, like this one:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221002-Pontic-Greek-GEDmatch-result-Eurogenes-K15

[Rethel]

Depends.

For example here are my results (West Polish) and Austrian (South-East German) in DNA Land:

As you can see we are both 1/2 Slavic, but he is more Southern Euro, and I'm more NW Euro.

However, North-East Germans (Prussians etc.) will not score as much of Southern Euro.

Eee, it doesn;t show reality.
Some Slav could be entirly autosomaly german and later multiply strongly with other au-german women,
or some German could be autosomaly slavic and do the same with au-slavic women.

[Karol Klačansky]

Depends.

For example here are my results (West Polish) and Austrian (South-East German) in DNA Land:

http://i.imgur.com/vbmbKgw.png

https://s21.postimg.io/85gxajk9z/Austrian.png

As you can see we are both 1/2 Slavic, but he is more Southern Euro, and I'm more NW Euro.

However, North-East Germans (Prussians etc.) will not score as much of Southern Euro.That's just not true. First off that guy isn't a typical Austrian he is from a region with almost completely Slovenian Ancestry and his last name is Slovenian. He is definitely heavily Slavic. Regions like steiermark have been sampled and found to have over 40% R1a. They aren't like the rest of austrians and not a good proxy for east Germans. Also DNA land is not a good calc for testing ancestry. On any PCA plot you cluster very close to other Slavic Populations. If we take central ukrainians as a proxy for full slavs youre about 80-90% Slavic not half. Even I'm not half usually I score around 60% easter euro on most tests except for DNA land which is not reliable.

Western poles cluster no where near non east Germans. East Germans definitely have Slavic Ancestry, Western poles have some Germanic ancestry but not as much as eastern Germans Slavic ancestry

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Lucas]

That's just not true. First off that guy isn't a typical Austrian he is from a region with almost completely Slovenian Ancestry and his last name is Slovenian. He is definitely heavily Slavic. Regions like steiermark have been sampled and found to have over 40% R1a. They aren't like the rest of austrians and not a good proxy for east Germans. Also DNA land is not a good calc for testing ancestry. On any PCA plot you cluster very close to other Slavic Populations. If we take central ukrainians as a proxy for full slavs youre about 80-90% Slavic not half. Even I'm not half usually I score around 60% easter euro on most tests except for DNA land which is not reliable.

Western poles cluster no where near non east Germans. East Germans definitely have Slavic Ancestry, Western poles have some Germanic ancestry but not as much as eastern Germans Slavic ancestry

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

Agree

[Diocleatian204]

Poles tend be more Germanic Descent than Eastern Germans who tend to be of Slavic (Wendish) Descent because Wendish were Exterminated after the Wendenkreuzzug in 12th Century.

[Peterski]

Poles tend be more Germanic Descent than Eastern Germans who tend to be of Slavic (Wendish) Descent because Wendish were Exterminated after the Wendenkreuzzug in 12th Century.

They were not exterminated, but converted to Christianity. And that crusade affected only areas between the Elbe and the Oder, while areas to the east of the Oder had already been Christian and parts of Poland before - German settlers later came there and assimilated local Poles.

[Peterski]

That's just not true. First off that guy isn't a typical Austrian he is from a region with almost completely Slovenian Ancestry and his last name is Slovenian.

His last name is German and all of his known ancestors have German last names.

He has no Slovenian ancestry, and in puntDNAL K15 he has extremely Austrian results:

He told me: "I do not speak Slovene or any Slovene local Carinthian dialect nor do I have any known ancestors with Slovene surnames. Koroških just means Carinthian in slovene language, could be ethnic German or ethnic Slovene. And all my known ancestors are German-speakers from Carinthia and Styria."

Here his puntDNAL K15 results (seems to be a "typical Austrian" based on this):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?188883-New-PuntDNAL-K15-calculator-post-your-results!&p=3927768&viewfull=1#post3927768


This calculator looks impressingly good!

# Population Percent
1 NE_European 55.91
2 Mediterranean 27.17
3 Caucasian 9.92
4 SW_Asian 4.9
5 S_Indian 0.8
6 Omo_River 0.43
7 Siberian 0.42
8 Oceanian 0.39
9 Amerindian 0.05
10 S_African 0.01

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Austrian 1.05
2 Slovenian 2.3
3 Hungarian 2.58
4 Irish 3.47
5 Orcadian 3.55
6 Croatian 4.13
7 North_German 4.19
8 English 4.36
9 Scottish 4.94
10 Norwegian 5.33
11 Utahn_White 5.99
12 South_German 6.41
13 Swedish 6.85
14 Serbian 9.01
15 Polish 9.32
16 French 9.65
17 Bosnian 13.08
18 Macedonian 14.86
19 Mordovian 15.12
20 Belarusian 15.32

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% AriBlackSmith @ 0.97
2 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Nganassan @ 0.97
3 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Bedouin_B @ 0.99
4 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Dolgan @ 1
5 99.5% Austrian + 0.5% Selkup @ 1.01
6 99% Austrian + 1% Basque @ 1.01
7 98.8% Austrian + 1.2% Spaniard @ 1.02
8 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% AriCultivator @ 1.02
9 99.5% Austrian + 0.5% Sardinian @ 1.02
10 99.8% Austrian + 0.2% Papuan @ 1.02
11 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Saudi @ 1.03
12 99.2% Austrian + 0.8% Brazilian @ 1.03
13 98.9% Austrian + 1.1% Mordovian @ 1.03
14 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Moroccan @ 1.04
15 99.9% Austrian + 0.1% Melanesian @ 1.04
16 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Mozabite_Berber @ 1.04
17 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Puerto_Rican @ 1.04
18 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Colombian_B @ 1.04
19 95.9% Austrian + 4.1% Orcadian @ 1.04
20 96.7% Austrian + 3.3% English @ 1.04

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Austrian @ 1.834648
2 Slovenian @ 3.012423
3 Orcadian @ 3.551322
4 Irish @ 3.586220
5 Hungarian @ 3.795977
6 North_German @ 4.162593
7 English @ 4.431090
8 Scottish @ 4.825833
9 Norwegian @ 5.409451
10 Croatian @ 5.463852
11 Utahn_White @ 6.694263
12 Swedish @ 6.971464
13 South_German @ 7.336555
14 Polish @ 9.704070
15 Serbian @ 10.781292
16 French @ 10.989354
17 Bosnian @ 15.515591
18 Mordovian @ 16.320127
19 Belarusian @ 16.479029
20 Russian @ 16.577738

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Austrian +50% Austrian @ 1.834648


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Austrian +25% Austrian +25% Austrian @ 1.834648


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Scottish + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.641198
2 Orcadian + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.679857
3 Lithuanian + Scottish + Austrian + Montenegrin @ 1.713121
4 English + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.768368
5 North_German + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.788517
6 Lithuanian + English + Austrian + Romanian @ 1.794720
7 Lithuanian + English + Austrian + Montenegrin @ 1.830812
8 Norwegian + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.833493
9 Austrian + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.834648
10 Lithuanian + Orcadian + Austrian + Montenegrin @ 1.836085
11 Lithuanian + Polish + Scottish + Albanian @ 1.859073
12 Lithuanian + Polish + English + Albanian @ 1.860137
13 Lithuanian + Polish + Scottish + Tuscan @ 1.863095
14 Lithuanian + Orcadian + Austrian + Romanian @ 1.864231
15 Lithuanian + Scottish + Austrian + Romanian @ 1.864766
16 Irish + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.869636
17 Orcadian + Slovenian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.878144
18 Lithuanian + Polish + Orcadian + Albanian @ 1.889300
19 Scottish + Slovenian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.895475
20 Polish + Polish + Austrian + Romanian @ 1.925544

[Peterski]

Regions like steiermark have been sampled and found to have over 40% R1a.

Some parts of East Germany have just as much:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

[Dandelion]

Question is if they all learned Polish or some other Lechite Slavic tongue like Sorbian. Would Peterski accept them more or are their past crimes unforgivable as the traitors to Slavdom they are? Northern and Eastern Germany also had the highest percentage of NSDAP voters, whereas the more Celtic-influenced Bavaria (among the) the least.

[Leto]

Several million Eastern Germans were resettled in West Germany after WWII (die Vertriebenen). And several million more migrated from East Germany to West Germany after 1989, so nowadays such a division has little relevance, I'd say. However, I think East Germans are more like Czechs and Austrians, not Poles who are much more Slavic by ancestry.

[Karol Klačansky]

His last name is German and all of his known ancestors have German last names.

He has no Slovenian ancestry, and in puntDNAL K15 he has extremely Austrian results:

He told me: "I do not speak Slovene or any Slovene local Carinthian dialect nor do I have any known ancestors with Slovene surnames. Koroških just means Carinthian in slovene language, could be ethnic German or ethnic Slovene. And all my known ancestors are German-speakers from Carinthia and Styria."

Here his puntDNAL K15 results (seems to be a "typical Austrian" based on this):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?188883-New-PuntDNAL-K15-calculator-post-your-results!&p=3927768&viewfull=1#post3927768Exactly his last name is Slovenian koriskih is not a German word and it doesn't matter if his ancestors are German on paper they are descendants of slavs in that region just like in Steiermark. Corinthia gets its name from a Slavic tribe. He is not a good representative of an average Austrian, and my point is that some Austrians and most east Germans have a lot of Slavic ancestry more than Western poles do have Germanic ancestry. Just look at the k13 PCA. You (Polish central) are very close to other Slavic populations and distant from the rest of Germans besides east Germans who clearly drift towards czechs and slavs. Saying youre half Slavic because of DNA land is just not accurate DNA land is pretty garbage with their ethnicity estimate. East Germans and austrians clearly and historically have a lot of Slavic ancestry much more than poles have Germanic ancestry. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170914/1c8f7e0f1853f6f304d205fecdd86530.jpg

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Karol Klačansky]

Here are two Austrian my heritage results one is from Tirol and the other from lower austria, lower austrians clearly have Slavic influence.

Austrian (Lower Austria):

North and West Europe: 61.2%

North and West European: 53.6%

Scandinavian: 6.3%

Finnish: 1.3%

South Europe: 8.4%

Italian: 8.4%

East Europe: 30.4%

Balkan: 22.4%

East European: 6.2%

Baltic: 1.8%https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170914/bf525009b1e87b11b8283744b8613236.jpg

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

On any PCA plot you cluster very close to other Slavic Populations. If we take central ukrainians as a proxy for full slavs youre about 80-90% Slavic not half.

Here are my autosomal results, in DNA Tribes I'm even less Slavic than in DNA Land:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220367-Post-all-your-autosomal-results-in-one-thread&p=4632243&viewfull=1#post4632243

http://i.imgur.com/RbNXQj9.png

However, I don't have much of Southern European or Mediterranean admixtures.

Modern Germans have more of Mediterranean admixtures than Ancient Germanic tribes.

This is what shifts them in a PCA to the west and south (towards Iberia and Italy).

[Peterski]

Exactly his last name is Slovenian

No, his last name is German. And entire Austria - except for Tyrol - used to be Slavic:

Early Medieval ethnic Slovene settlement, compared to modern borders of Slovenia:

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg

[Rethel]

It cannot be say who is more what, becasue noone counted and it is even hard to do.
Many Slavs were germanized and Germans Slavicized even before Xth century, and it
is just not possible to now today who is who. But from these, which we know, then
13% of all FRGians are Slavs, and probably (my pure guess) 10% of Poles are Germans.

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/jOHBWbJq1VA

[Dragoon]

Some Western Poles have German/Germanic ancestry
Some Eastern Germans have Polish/Slavic ancestry.

If you go back 1000 years that area had Slavic tribes (Sorbs, Veleti, Obotrites, Rani, Poles).
However, those would be mostly become German over time.

[Peterski]

Agree

My admixtures in Eurogenes K36 (average from FTDNA & 23andMe formats):

Basque - 0.945
Central Euro - 9.76
East Balkan - 8.52
East Central Euro - 22.865
Eastern Euro - 13.945
Fennoscandian - 9.32
French - 4.965
Iberian - 0.445
Italian - 5.905
North Atlantic - 8.18
North Caucasus - 2.21
North Sea - 11.775
West Med - 1.17

Compare this for example with Early Slavic sample RISE568, which scores:

Central Euro - 24.42
East Central Euro - 32.41
Eastern Euro - 24.62
Iberian - 2.11
North Sea - 16.41

But Wielbark (Pre-Slavic Poland) samples also score these admixtures. Green are Early Medieval samples, yellow are Wielbark sample. These are only screening results, so may be unreliable:

https://i.imgur.com/peNGWwX.png

Map made by Ukrainian user Aha which shows where each K36 admixture peaks today:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11965-K36-Unified-Map-of-Elements

https://i.imgur.com/VQ3kQ9F.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VQ3kQ9F.jpg

[Peterski]

And RISE598 from Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age Lithuania (Sudovia, near the Polish border):

Central Euro - 15.76
East Central Euro - 48.96
Eastern Euro - 18.24
Fennoscandian - 4.02
North Sea - 8.2
Volga-Ural - 2.17
West Med - 2.15
East African - 0.5

This sample actually scores 100% North Slavic in DNA Land, but that guy was a Baltic-speaker:

http://i.imgur.com/8EEA5lK.png

RISE598 is from Turlojiske, Lithuania/Poland border:

https://s21.postimg.org/hwa9s58fb/Turlojiske.png

[Dick]

https://i.imgur.com/VQ3kQ9F.jpg

Lol @ Davidski's "central euro" component being Polish.

[Lavrentis]

My admixtures in Eurogenes K36 (average from FTDNA & 23andMe formats):

Basque - 0.945
Central Euro - 9.76
East Balkan - 8.52
East Central Euro - 22.865
Eastern Euro - 13.945
Fennoscandian - 9.32
French - 4.965
Iberian - 0.445
Italian - 5.905
North Atlantic - 8.18
North Caucasus - 2.21
North Sea - 11.775
West Med - 1.17

Compare this for example with Early Slavic sample RISE568, which scores:

Central Euro - 24.42
East Central Euro - 32.41
Eastern Euro - 24.62
Iberian - 2.11
North Sea - 16.41

But Wielbark (Pre-Slavic Poland) samples also score these admixtures. Green are Early Medieval samples, yellow are Wielbark sample. These are only screening results, so may be unreliable:

https://i.imgur.com/peNGWwX.png

Map made by Ukrainian user Aha which shows where each K36 admixture peaks today:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11965-K36-Unified-Map-of-Elements

https://i.imgur.com/VQ3kQ9F.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VQ3kQ9F.jpg

Why is half of Greece modeled as 'East Balkan' ? This is wrong. But then, as the Serbian retard already said, Poland is modeled as 'Central Euro'. :laugh:

[Peterski]

Lol @ Davidski's "central euro" component being Polish.

And Wielbark culture samples from Iron Age Poland score a lot of it:

https://i.imgur.com/peNGWwX.png

Yellow color = Iron Age samples, green color = Early Medieval samples.

But these are just screening results (poor quality / low SNP count).

[Peterski]

But then, as the Serbian retard already said, Poland is modeled as 'Central Euro'. :laugh:

This is just "Central Euro" admixture from Eurogenes K36.

And among modern populations, Poles have the most of it.

Among ancient populations, Wielbark culture has a lot of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture


Why is half of Greece modeled as 'East Balkan' ?

Because the so-called "East Balkan" admixture from K36 peaks among Greeks and Albanians.

But this admixture is not the majority of Greek ancestry. They just have more than anyone else.

===============

Maybe these admixtures have wrong names, but they are legit genetic components.

[Peterski]

Lol @ Davidski's "central euro" component being Polish.

He should have just called it Polish instead of Central Euro. :laugh:

And French should be called Breton. :p

[Linebacker]

There are more Western Poles of German descent than Eastern Germans of Polish descent.

The proof is history,Far Western Poles live in lands that were German before WWI

Former German lands in black,Present day Germany in red.Grey is the Borders of pre-WWI Poland.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany.png/735px-Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany.png

[Peterski]

There are more Western Poles of German descent than Eastern Germans of Polish descent.

The proof is history,Far Western Poles live in lands that were German before WWI

Former German lands in black,Present day Germany in red.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany.png/735px-Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany.png

But those lands had been Polish before they became German.

Europe in ca. 1000 AD:

http://webserver.sms.org/intranet/classes/history/worldhist/maps/web/eur1000ad.jpeg

https://pceldran.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/7751971_orig.gif

Europe in ca. 1100 AD:

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/lectureearlymedievalromanesque-121126223333-phpapp01/95/lecture-early-medieval-romanesque-europe-2-638.jpg?cb=1353969341

[Dick]

Here are my autosomal results, in DNA Tribes I'm even less Slavic than in DNA Land:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220367-Post-all-your-autosomal-results-in-one-thread&p=4632243&viewfull=1#post4632243

However, I don't have much of Southern European or Mediterranean admixtures.

Modern Germans have more of Mediterranean admixtures than Ancient Germanic tribes.

This is what shifts them in a PCA to the west and south (towards Iberia and Italy).

What about your top country? also this is my WGG from Dna tribes.

https://i.imgur.com/jLzSpZF.jpg.

[Karol Klačansky]

No, his last name is German. And entire Austria - except for Tyrol - used to be Slavic:

Early Medieval ethnic Slovene settlement, compared to modern borders of Slovenia:

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg

how is the last name Koroških german? its clearly slavic and means when his ancestor got that last name they were slovene speaking.

you know dna tribes is also a garbage company. Testing companies are only valuable when compared to others who have tested them. share youre K36 oracle and tell me where either scandinavian or non east german populations pop up in your oracle. Im sure you do have german ancestry but no where near the amount of slavic that austrians or east germans have.

[Dick]

how is the last name Koroških german? its clearly slavic and means when his ancestor got that last name they were slovene speaking.

you know dna tribes is also a garbage company. Testing companies are only valuable when compared to others who have tested them. share youre K36 oracle and tell me where either scandinavian or non east german populations pop up in your oracle. Im sure you do have german ancestry but no where near the amount of slavic that austrians or east germans have.
Koroških means Carinthian in Slovene. Maybe his family adopted the name later on.

[Loki]

Both are correct. Because admixture happened at different times over a long period together in history. Remember, the early Germanic tribes were in part located there, at the beginning of the Volkerwanderung, and also the Goths interacted there. So they have a complex history together.

[Karol Klačansky]

Koroških means Carinthian in Slovene. Maybe his family adopted the name later on.Yea but Corinthia is just a region and was historically considered Slovenian at different times.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Dick]

Yea but Corinthia is just a region and was historically considered Slovenian at different times.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

I have a 23andme relative from Slovenia that is half German Swabian/Slovene and his surname is Kordisch. This what his autosmal looks like:

https://i.imgur.com/BsWAfFO.png

[Sacrificed Ram]

Just the conversion of some slavs to protestantism also included a germanization.

[Peterski]

Koroških is not Noricum's last name. It is just his regional identity.

[Karol Klačansky]

I have a 23andme relative from Slovenia that is half German Swabian/Slovene and his surname is Kordisch. This what his autosmal looks like:

https://i.imgur.com/BsWAfFO.pngInteresting, can you share some of his gedmatch results?

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

If you mix 50% Danish with 50% Russian, you get East German:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221355-Need-help-finding-best-GEDMatch-calculator-for-me&p=4646100&viewfull=1#post4646100

[Peterski]

Which one of the two is more correct?

Some time ago I compiled this early timeline of the history of Slavs in Germany - until Charlemagne's death. I planned to compile also the second part of this timeline, from 814 until the early 13th century (when last Slavic tribes in Germany lost independence), but so far I haven't done this.

Since Charlemagne's death it took about 400 more years to conquer them (but for example the Veleti and the Obodrites were conquered by Germans already in 963, but in 983 they started the Great Slav Rising and became independent again - following that Great Slav Rising they were independent for the next 200 years, until 1150-1200, some of them even longer up to 1250, when Germans finally captured all areas to the west of the Oder-Neisse): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slav_Rising

Early timeline of Slavs in Germany (until Charlemagne's death in 814; the next period from 814 to 1250 was even more interesting). Slavic colonization of what is now East Germany (and what used to be part of West Slavdom before the Northern Crusades) started in the 6th century.

Here is the timeline of the earliest phase of history of Slavs in Germany, from the beginning of historical record until the death of Charlemagne:

⦁ 512 - the Heruli migrate from middle Danube to North Germany and encounter territories already inhabited by Slavs on their way there (source: Procopius)
⦁ 6th century - Slavic settlement at Prague, Bohemia, numbers over 600 houses: http://www.archaeobotany.org/download/posters/novak_roztoky_abstract_whv2010.pdf
⦁ ca. 550 - Slavs start migrating into what is now Austria and later into East Germany
⦁ 595 - Slavs (probably ancestors of Slovenes or / and Croats) fight against Frankish-dependent Bavarian duke Tassilo in modern Austria and Bohemia
⦁ 596 - Slavs, probably allied with the Avars, defeat the Bavarians under Tassilo, killing 2,000 of them
⦁ 610 - battle of Aguntum (4 km to the east of present-day Lienz), Bavarians finally stop Slavic westward expansion in this region (source: Paul the Deacon)
⦁ 620s - a major war between Slavs and Avars (who had previously been allies)
⦁ 624 - a smuggler of weapons from the Frankish Empire, Samo (born near Sens at the Yonne river in central France), who had previously been illegally smuggling across the border and selling weapons to Slavs, enters Slavic lands, joins Slavs in their fight against the Avars, and due to his merits in battle, united Slavic tribes elect him their king (source: Fredegar's chronicle). Samo was probably a Gallo-Roman.
⦁ 630 - Walluk, duke of Carantanians (northern Slovenes), joins Samo's Federation.
⦁ 631 - Slavic Federation defeats the Frankish Empire in the battle of Wogastisburg
⦁ 631 - after the victory at Wogastisburg Slavic armies invade and plunder Thuringia
⦁ 632 - Dervan, duke of Surbi (Sorbs) joins the Slavic Federation under king Samo
⦁ 636 - Dervan is killed in one of battles against Randulf, governor of Thuringia
⦁ 661 - the federation disintegrates into many realms again after Samo's death. According to Fredegar's chronicle Samo had 12 Slavic wifes, 22 sons and 15 daughters.
⦁ 772 - Charlemagne invades Southern Saxons (who are Pagans)
⦁ 777 - the conquest of Southern Saxons by the Franks is completed
⦁ 780 - first Frankish contact with the Slavic Obodrites at the Middle Elbe
⦁ 782 - Slavic Sorbs raid and plunder Thuringia and Frankish-controlled Saxony
⦁ 782 - Saxon uprising against Franks, led by Saxon duke Widukind. Obodrites side with Franks
⦁ 785 - uprising squashed, Widukind surrenders and agrees to convert to Christianity in Attigny
⦁ 789 - Wieczan (Witzan) becomes the supreme duke (rex / princeps) of Obodrites
⦁ 789 - Obodrites mentioned as "old good allies" of Charlemagne (against Saxons)
⦁ 789 - Wieczan asks Charlemagne for assistance against his troublesome eastern neighbours, the Holy Union of the Veleti, under supreme duke Drogowit.
⦁ 789 - Charlemagne, allied with Frisians, Sorbs and Obodrites (under duke Wieczan), invades Veleti. Frankish army crosses the Elbe near modern Wolmirstadt. Allied forces besiege Brenna, the main stronghold of Veleti duke Drogowit. Seeing that resistance is pointless, Drogowit negotiates peace. Veleti pay a single tribute to Charlemagne. Charlemagne satisfied with tribute returns back to Francia.
⦁ 795 - Obodrite duke Wieczan (dux Witzan), ally of Franks against Nordalbingians (northernmost Saxon tribe, who remain independent from Frankish rule).
⦁ 795 - at the Elbe near Bardowick Nordalbingians ambush Obodrites, killing Wieczan
⦁ ca. 796 - Drozko elected new rex / princeps of the Obodrites. Drozko has a son named Czedrog (Chedrog). Drozko continues pro-Frankish policies of Wieczan and Charlemagne is his ally. Danes, Northern Saxons and Veleti are his enemies.
⦁ 795-798 - in revenge for Wieczan's death, Charlemagne raids Nordalbingians and carries out first forcible population transfers and deportations of Saxons.
⦁ 798 - battle of Swentana (Bornhöved) between Obodrites under Drozko and Nordalbingians (at the same time Charlemagne's army is near Minden, raiding Ostphalia). Obodrites win. About 3 - 4 thousand Saxons perish.
⦁ 799 - son of Charlemagne mediates in conflict between Obodrites and Veleti
⦁ 804 - conquest of Nordalbingians by Franks (with Veleti help) is completed, forcible deportation of over 10,000 Nordalbingian men, with families, to Gaul.
⦁ 804 - in Hollenstedt at the Elbe Drozko is crowned King by Charlemagne, he is also awarded Nordalbingia, which becomes part of the Slavic Obodrite realm (sources: Ann. Regni Francorum a 804, Chron. Moiss a 804). Archaeological evidence of Slavic settlements and Slavic pottery in Nordalbingia discovered in Hamburg and in Domplatz, dated to 8th-9th centuries (R. Schindler connects these with Drozko's reign).
⦁ ca. 805 - Charlemagne fortifies Frankish-Slavic border (limes sorabicus and limes saxonicus) and establishes permanent military posts along it. He introduces capitulare duplex in 805 - a kind of embargo for export of weaponry to Slavic lands (including even his allied Obodrites). Several places are chosen for trade with Slavs.
⦁ 805 - Franks invade the Sorbian-Lusatian tribe of the Glomaci
⦁ 805 - duke Lecho of the Bohemians (Czechs) dies in battle against Charlemagne
⦁ 806 - Sorbs (Siurbs) agree to pay tribute to Charlemgne after their duke - Miliduch (Milidouch / Milito) - is killed in a battle against Franks near modern Halle.
⦁ 808 - Drozko, king of the Obodrites. Godelaib, one of their minor dukes.
⦁ 808 - the Danes under duke Godfred (his realm is in Jutland), allied with the Veleti, invade the Obodrite realm (Jutland had previously become a refuge for Saxon refugees during Frankish-Obodrite invasions of Nordalbingia). Danes and Veleti manage to capture several Obodrite strongholds in the process.
⦁ 808 - at least two out of member-tribes of the Obodrite realm, Smolincy and Linianie, betray and unite with Danish-Veleti army. King Drozko is forced to abandon his realm and escapes to Francia. Godelaib is captured and executed. Godfred annexes Nordalbingia, two other Obodrite provinces - Obodrsko and Wagria - pay tribute.
⦁ 808-809 - Veleti wage offensive war against Obodrites and then against Franks
⦁ 808 - Charlemagne sends his son to crush the Veleti and Obodrite traitors, but he is defeated and has to retreat. Godfred proposes peace to Charlemagne, negotiations take place in Bandenflut at the Stör River, but they fail and war continues on.
⦁ 809 - Drozko returns from exile to his country. He signs truce with Danes in exchange for giving them one of his sons (maybe Chedrog) as a hostage. He allies with Saxons against Veleti and these Obotrite trines which seceded from his realm. Allied Obodrite loyalists and Saxons besiege a stronghold of Smolincy at Connoburg. The stronghold is captured and destroyed, power over rebellious tribes is restored.
⦁ 809 - Godfred violates the truce and invades Obodrites, he demolishes Slavic coastal town at Rerik (near modern Wismar), and deports local merchants to Haithabu (Hedeby), Denmark. Drozko is killed by Danish assassins at Rerik.
⦁ 809 - after the death of Drozko Charlemagne deprives the Obodrites of Nordalbingia (land of Northern Saxons) and incorporates it to his Empire. The land is depopulated due to war, disease and deportations, so he brings in new settlers from entire Empire. Charlemagne establishes three new castles to strengthen the defence of his borders: first is at Eselfeld at the Stör River, second is at Hamburg, third is at Hochbucki near Lenzen at the Elbe.
⦁ 810 - Veleti attack the Frankish Empire and destroy their new castle at Hochbucki
⦁ 812 - Franks and Obodrites (under their new grand duke, Slavomir) in retaliation invade Veleti territories and manage to force them to pay a tribute.
⦁ 813 - coronation of Louis I by Charlemagne in Aachen.
⦁ 814 - death of Charlemagne, Louis I takes power in the Empire. Those of Slavic tribes which had been paying tribute to Charlemagne, stop paying it.

===================

House of Mecklenburg is a Slavic dynasty which still exists in Germany today:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borwin,_Duke_of_Mecklenburg

Funny thing is that Niklot was chosen as the leader of all Slavs in this mod:

http://civilization-v-customisation.wikia.com/wiki/The_Slavs_(Niklot)

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/civilization-v-customisation/images/e/ef/SlavsMap512.png/revision/latest?cb=20150501102909

Niklot was indeed "the last true Slav", the last of Pagan Slavic rulers who resisted Christianization. Already by 1060 AD all of Slavs were Christian, except for Polabians in East Germany:

https://s11.postimg.org/cki4kmpmr/Religions_1060.png

[Leto]

If you mix 50% Danish with 50% Russian, you get East German:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221355-Need-help-finding-best-GEDMatch-calculator-for-me&p=4646100&viewfull=1#post4646100
This is a half-Belorussian, half-American (white obviously):
M066958

[Mens-Sarda]

https://s11.postimg.org/cki4kmpmr/Religions_1060.png

Who made this shitty map? Sardinia and Corsica are painted in green?! The Arabs were always defeated in both islands every time they tried to land, there was never Islamic religion in these islands, it's Christian territory since IIIrd century. To be more specific, until early XIIth century Sardinian church used the Orthodox liturgy but it was autonomous from Costantinople and from Rome. After XIIth the Sardinian clergy adopted the Roman Catholic liturgy.

[Rethel]

Who made this shitty map?

Title says: DOMINANT religion.
Islam was dominant state religion, wasn't he?

[Mens-Sarda]

Title says: DOMINANT religion.
Islam was dominant state religion, wasn't he?

Islam never existed in Sardinia or Corsica since both islands were never under Arab rule


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati#Historical_causes_of_the_advent_of_the_g iudicati

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati#Religion

[Karol Klačansky]

This is a half-Belorussian, half-American (white obviously):
M066958

me and him are brothers on the eurogenes eu pca plot.
https://image.ibb.co/gciKpQ/half_belarussian.png (https://ibb.co/i3Lcb5)

[Rethel]

Islam never existed in Sardinia or Corsica since both islands were never under Arab rule

So why everwhere they are painted as muslim states?

[Mens-Sarda]

So why everwhere they are painted as muslim states?

Maps made by ignorant people, without looking to the historical fonts; from IX to XVth century Sardinia lived during the so called Judical Age, a continuation of the Byzantine provincial institutions, Arabs attacked many times both Sardinia and Corsica and they were always repelled; the territorial defense was so effective that even the Pope asked to the Iudex Sardiniae to send soldiers to defend Rome.

In the historical fonts there is no single mention of Muslim government or Islamic presence in Sardinia, not a single stone or a wall attributable to Arabs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati)

in the map below of the XIth century Sardinia is labeled as autonomous former Byzantine territory, all the maps that paint both Sardinia and Corsica as Muslim territory are wrong.

http://www.giuntafilippo.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/1000-TCI39.jpg

http://www.medioevoinumbria.it/wp-content/gallery/resources/SecoloXI.gif (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati)

[Lucas]

Maps made by ignorant people, without looking to the historical fonts; from IX to XVth century Sardinia lived during the so called Judical Age, a continuation of the Byzantine provincial institutions, Arabs attacked many times both Sardinia and Corsica and they were always repelled; the territorial defense was so effective that even the Pope asked to the Iudex Sardiniae to send soldiers to defend Rome.

In the historical fonts there is no single mention of Muslim government or Islamic presence in Sardinia, not a single stone or a wall attributable to Arabs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati)

in the map below of the XIth century Sardinia is labeled as autonomous former Byzantine territory, all the maps that paint both Sardinia and Corsica as Muslim territory are wrong.


I checked, he is right. Sandniggers never conquest those islands. But I found interesting info abot Sardinia religious matters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia


During this time, Christianity took deeper root on the island, supplanting the Paganism which had survived into the early Middle Ages in the culturally conservative hinterlands. Along with lay Christianity, the followers of monastic figures such as Basil of Caesarea became established in Sardinia. While Christianity penetrated the majority of the population, the region of Barbagia remained largely pagan and, probably, partially non-Latin speaking. They re-established a short-lived independent domain with Sardinian-heathen lay and religious traditions, one of its kings being Hospito.[30][31] Pope Gregory I wrote a letter to Hospito defining him "Dux Barbaricinorum" and, being Christian, the leader and best of his people.[32] In this unique letter about Hospito, the Pope prompts him to convert his people who “living all like irrational animals, ignore the true God and worship wood and stone”

So interior of Sardinia in early medieval must be pagan on the religious map of Europe:)

[EasternEurope]

I'm generally inclined to say how East Germans are more influenced by Slavic migrations from history, rather than West Poland being more Germanic.

[Mens-Sarda]

I checked, he is right. Sandniggers never conquest those islands. But I found interesting info abot Sardinia religious matters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia



So interior of Sardinia in early medieval must be pagan on the religious map of Europe:)

The persistence of paganism in the inner areas of Sardinia was due to the fact that those areas where always out of Roman and Byzantine control, they never bothered to conquer the mountains with an expensive military campaign, (this was the area where the last Nuragic tribes found shelter from the Roman invasion) they preferred to build outposts and fortifications to keep the people inside, in fact they named this territory Barbaria (actual Barbagia) and the Roman territory Romània, this subdivision endured at least until IXth century, when those areas where probably full Christian and were absorbed in the territories of the four Judicados, heirs of the Byzantine provincial institutions.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Sardegna_Barbaria.png

[Silver Lining]

There is certainly a similiarity between the lower classes in Eastern German and the average Pole (phenotype/IQ/morphology).

[J. Ketch]

Would East Germans be noticeably more Eastern/Slavic shifted than 100 years ago? I'm thinking of the influence of the diaspora of Eastern Europe coming back and maybe even the Soviet rapes.

[Scholarios]

East Germans of Slav/Sorb descent, to some extent.

[Lucas]

Would East Germans be noticeably more Eastern/Slavic shifted than 100 years ago? I'm thinking of the influence of the diaspora of Eastern Europe coming back and maybe even the Soviet rapes.

Germans from former eastern territories emigrated mainly to the western part (I bet 90%).
Soviet rapes were, but also mass abortions (I bet 95% children from rapes were aborted or more).

[Ülev]

^^ but please note about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegony_(pregnancy)

[Lucas]

^^ but please note about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegony_(pregnancy)

COMPLETE, UNSCIENTFIC BULLSHIT.

Do you think white girl who had sex with negroid would have his future child (with some European) mullato-like because of that:) ?

[Ülev]

COMPLETE, UNSCIENTFIC BULLSHIT.

Do you think white girl who had sex with negroid would have his future child (with some European) mullato-like because of that:) ?

maybe just mentality? :rolleyes:

[Krivich]

Germans from former eastern territories emigrated mainly to the western part (I bet 90%).
Soviet rapes were, but also mass abortions (I bet 95% children from rapes were aborted or more).
There were no rapes. 95% of abortions - "fairy tales from the crypt". There are no documents confirming rape, and even more so abortion. There is only propaganda, which began with the 90-ies. The Eastern Germans are dominated by West Slavic haplogroups, which are not related to Eastern Europe. Eastern Germans are descendants of the ancient Slavs - Obodrity, Lutichi and other Slavs.

[Peterski]

Soviet rapes were

I remember this guy is descended from a Russian suggar daddy officer:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223633-Soviet-German-K36-results


Interesting case, East German mother and Soviet Red Army father (ethnicity unknown):


The other case we do not know a lot. Mother from Lower Silesia, Glatz (Klodzko), father a Soviet army officer in late 1945. Nothing known about him; now hoping to find him by DNA testing.

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.00
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 3.32
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 24.85
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 14.61
Fennoscandian 9.43
French 4.95
Iberian 8.65
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 6.98
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 0.38
North_Atlantic 4.75
North_Caucasian 0.87
North_Sea 9.57
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 1.89
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.74
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

Red Army soldiers fathered kids also in relationships, not from "rapes".

[Krivich]

I remember this guy is descended from a Russian suggar daddy officer:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223633-Soviet-German-K36-results



Red Army soldiers fathered kids also in relationships, not from "rapes".
The Germans also did not rape the Eastern Slavs and did not even kill without command orders. There may have been isolated cases on one side or the other, but these are exceptions.

[War Chef]

I remember this guy is descended from a Russian suggar daddy officer:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223633-Soviet-German-K36-results



Red Army soldiers fathered kids also in relationships, not from "rapes".

I raped a Slavic girl last night by the way, not even joking.
Well she has a role play scenario she wanted to try, where she struggle and I win in the end.

[Krivich]

I raped a Slavic girl last night by the way, not even joking.
Well she has a role play scenario she wanted to try, where she struggle and I win in the end.
Attaboy!

[Ülev]

back to the topic - some Eastern Germans do have some Slavic in their veins, but some Poles can be of German descend too - but much more less
and that trend is continued still
and that are the Slavs who are going to Germany en masse (to work) rather than the Germans with Lebensraum agenda, so be careful dear Germans

[Lucas]

maybe just mentality? :rolleyes:

You mean popularity of hip-hop among teeneagers?:)

[Peterski]

You mean popularity of hip-hop among teeneagers?:)

Is Slavic word cyce (tits) a loanword from Germanic Zitze?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258337-Is-Slavic-word-cyce-(tits)-a-loanword-from-Germanic-Zitze&p=5407779&viewfull=1#post5407779

[Karol Klačansky]

Is Slavic word cyce (tits) a loanword from Germanic Zitze?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258337-Is-Slavic-word-cyce-(tits)-a-loanword-from-Germanic-Zitze&p=5407779&viewfull=1#post5407779Sounds like one of the few loan words German has from Slavic. Could be of Slavic origin.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

Sounds like one of the few loan words German has from Slavic. Could be of Slavic origin.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

Wikipedia says Zitze is older and cyce a borrowing from German:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cyc#Etymology