Which region of Sicily do you think best preserves the indigenous elements/least foreign? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 01:44 PM

I have been able to identify, more or less, 4 genetic clusters within Sicily. Which "type" do you think contains the most native to the island genes with the least amount of foreign?

1. Northeast (Messina/Catania/Enna) which are almost identical to Cretans and Dodecanese but with even less Northern European type influences.
- Southeast (Syracuse/Ragusa) which shifts toward both Abruzzo and mainland Greece, elevated northern and lowest MENA
- West-Central (Palermo/Agrigento/Caltanissetta) which has elevated Levantine and North African, close similarity to various Jewish groups
- Far West (Trapani) which has both elevated mainland Italian and MENA.

Going by history, the logical answer to me is one of the clusters on the eastern side, but I don't know which. Settlement by MENA peoples tended to move from west to east, usually up through the southwest or Palermo like Arabs, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians, while the only non-native input in the southeast would have been Greek. However, if you believe that Greek influence in the southeast to have been very significant, then you might assume pre-Greek south easterners would be more like the northeast. But then, the northeast too got Greek influence, but mostly from the islands and western Anatolia, where the people would have been Sicilian-like to begin with, so their impact is difficult to tease out. Either way I do not think anywhere in the west or center of the island is going to be void of historical MENA input. Trapani seems like it should be like the rest of western Sicily but there have been northward-shifting migrations from Normans and mainland Italians that somewhat eroded their MENA influences, but you can see them still in the results.

The issue is, the Mycenaean results challenged my notion that Sicilians, Cretans, and Dodecanese have remained largely similar for 2000 years... now I believe that compared to Mycenaeans, they all (except southeast Sicily) have acquired more MENA influences. The Mycenaean results had higher Sardinian-like affinity. In Sicily, this is highest in the southeast.

My PERSONAL guess from most to least native input (i.e. constant unbroken Sicilian ancestry from 1000 BC):

1. Southeast
2. Northeast
3. West-Central
4. Trapani

These are some examples of the results on MDLP K23. I am going to put 5 each to save space.

NORTHEAST:

#1:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 40.51
2 European_Early_Farmers 21.93
3 Near_East 11.85
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 8.33
5 North_African 7.38
6 South_Central_Asian 4.42
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.26
8 East_African 1.03

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_East_ @ 4.494007
2 French_Jew_ @ 4.711267
3 Sicilian_Center_ @ 5.090245
4 Cretan_ @ 5.268915
5 Romanian_Jew_ @ 5.293564
6 Italian_Jew_ @ 5.627250
7 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 5.977905
8 Italian_South_ @ 5.999342
9 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 6.045859
10 Turk_Jew_ @ 6.176525
11 Greek_Islands_ @ 6.226830
12 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 6.714773
13 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 6.918391
14 Ashkenazi_ @ 7.040434
15 Maltese_ @ 7.238829
16 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 7.260376
17 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 8.095000
18 Sicilian_West_ @ 8.168953
19 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 8.479605
20 Greek_Athens_ @ 8.632577

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Jew_ +50% Italian_South_ @ 1.683679

#2:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 37.27
2 European_Early_Farmers 22.43
3 Near_East 11.45
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 10.72
5 North_African 8.24
6 South_Central_Asian 5.75

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_East_ @ 2.708948
2 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 3.578170
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 3.800875
4 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.211211
5 French_Jew_ @ 4.335665
6 Maltese_ @ 4.534269
7 Sicilian_West_ @ 4.615786
8 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 5.100980
9 Ashkenazi_ @ 5.768641
10 Romanian_Jew_ @ 5.900635
11 Cretan_ @ 6.149146
12 Sicilian_Center_ @ 6.569020
13 Italian_Jew_ @ 6.738734
14 Turk_Jew_ @ 6.910742
15 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 7.088856
16 Italian_South_ @ 7.310991
17 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.022264
18 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 9.216024
19 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 9.342374
20 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 9.582435

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cretan_ +50% Maltese_ @ 1.978778

#3:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 41.14
2 European_Early_Farmers 18.97
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.65
4 Near_East 9.61
5 North_African 9.53
6 South_Central_Asian 5.78
7 Melano_Polynesian 1.04

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Romanian_Jew_ @ 5.577933
2 Cretan_ @ 5.892550
3 Italian_South_ @ 6.023502
4 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.356281
5 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.541414
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 6.685301
7 Sicilian_Center_ @ 7.588259
8 Greek_Athens_ @ 7.809681
9 French_Jew_ @ 8.124864
10 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 8.215242
11 Greek_ @ 8.530302
12 Maltese_ @ 9.162107
13 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 9.182790
14 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 9.404812
15 Sicilian_West_ @ 9.412241
16 Italian_Jew_ @ 9.555605
17 Greek_Islands_ @ 9.582624
18 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 9.734960
19 Greek_Macedonia_ @ 9.804584
20 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 9.913408

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ +50% Moroccan_Jew_ @ 4.266860

#4:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 37.14
2 European_Early_Farmers 21.92
3 Near_East 11.16
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 10.47
5 South_Central_Asian 8.09
6 North_African 7.15
7 East_African 2.00
8 Ancestral_Altaic 1.03

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 4.517496
2 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 4.626687
3 Sicilian_East_ @ 4.745060
4 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 4.936708
5 French_Jew_ @ 5.406584
6 Cretan_ @ 5.416468
7 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 5.740453
8 Maltese_ @ 6.144705
9 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 6.190440
10 Romanian_Jew_ @ 6.977453
11 Ashkenazi_ @ 7.198225
12 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 7.543851
13 Turk_Jew_ @ 7.751248
14 Italian_Jew_ @ 7.881158
15 Italian_South_ @ 8.112665
16 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 8.281327
17 Sicilian_Center_ @ 8.371858
18 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.227379
19 Greek_Islands_ @ 9.796360
20 Greek_ @ 9.940096

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cretan_ +50% Sicilian_West_ @ 2.736356

#5:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 40.63
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.47
3 Near_East 10.10
4 South_Central_Asian 6.79
5 European_Hunters_Gatherers 6.43
6 North_African 6.38
7 Melano_Polynesian 1.58
8 Ancestral_Altaic 1.42

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_Jew_ @ 4.901930
2 Greek_Islands_ @ 6.135380
3 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 6.216229
4 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.329736
5 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 6.737360
6 Italian_Jew_ @ 6.887589
7 Cretan_ @ 7.014100
8 Sicilian_Center_ @ 7.124535
9 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 7.197167
10 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 7.532124
11 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.800222
12 Italian_South_ @ 7.829861
13 Turk_Jew_ @ 7.870563
14 Maltese_ @ 7.872652
15 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 8.044482
16 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 8.170243
17 Sicilian_West_ @ 8.522024
18 Ashkenazi_ @ 9.231515
19 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.947087
20 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 10.635830

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Jew_ +50% Greek_Islands_ @ 3.110562

SOUTHEAST:

#1:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 36.85
2 European_Early_Farmers 25.74
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.50
4 Near_East 8.38
5 North_African 7.07
6 South_Central_Asian 6.72
7 South_East_Asian 1.80

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 3.829459
2 Sicilian_West_ @ 4.306369
3 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.599115
4 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 4.975961
5 Sicilian_East_ @ 5.024581
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.173328
7 Maltese_ @ 5.616769
8 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.201211
9 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 6.814727
10 French_Jew_ @ 7.395386
11 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.539998
12 Sicilian_Center_ @ 7.747986
13 Italian_South_ @ 8.247808
14 Greek_Athens_ @ 8.763741
15 Cretan_ @ 8.923330
16 Central_Greek_ @ 9.458941
17 Greek_ @ 9.913497
18 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 10.039826
19 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 10.180323
20 Greek_Northwest_ @ 10.494715

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Jew_ +50% Greek_Northwest_ @ 3.494710

#2:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 34.54
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.38
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.69
4 Near_East 9.95
5 South_Central_Asian 6.45
6 North_African 4.55
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.74
8 Melano_Polynesian 1.05

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 3.880068
2 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.952147
3 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 4.105109
4 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 5.205952
5 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.570343
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 6.516419
7 Maltese_ @ 6.764032
8 Sicilian_East_ @ 7.110904
9 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 7.606345
10 Ashkenazi_ @ 8.175698
11 French_Jew_ @ 8.962283
12 Romanian_Jew_ @ 9.460002
13 Sicilian_Center_ @ 9.493291
14 Greek_Northwest_ @ 10.104075
15 Italian_Piedmont_ @ 10.187801
16 Central_Greek_ @ 10.261395
17 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 10.305134
18 Greek_Athens_ @ 10.575959
19 Italian_South_ @ 10.579081
20 Cretan_ @ 10.630919

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo_ +50% Sicilian_West_ @ 1.428689

#3:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 36.32
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.37
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.28
4 Near_East 9.32
5 South_Central_Asian 7.78
6 North_African 5.35
7 East_African 1.35
8 Austronesian 1.07

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.199259
2 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 4.761655
3 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 4.763894
4 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.835297
5 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.261105
6 Sicilian_East_ @ 5.444602
7 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.485544
8 Maltese_ @ 6.536126
9 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 7.316641
10 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.458840
11 French_Jew_ @ 7.566371
12 Cretan_ @ 7.649983
13 Italian_South_ @ 8.263099
14 Sicilian_Center_ @ 8.360852
15 Greek_Athens_ @ 8.463666
16 Central_Greek_ @ 9.215370
17 Greek_ @ 9.291619
18 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 9.620422
19 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 9.882830
20 Greek_Northwest_ @ 10.325708

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek_Northwest_ +50% Sephardic_Jew_ @ 3.188446

#4:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 36.04
2 European_Early_Farmers 20.86
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 17.05
4 Near_East 10.16
5 North_African 6.51
6 South_Central_Asian 4.56
7 Melano_Polynesian 1.03

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.098921
2 Ashkenazi_ @ 5.272447
3 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 6.125835
4 Sicilian_West_ @ 6.859781
5 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 6.890028
6 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.136246
7 Greek_ @ 7.264215
8 Central_Greek_ @ 7.357910
9 Sicilian_East_ @ 7.533345
10 Greek_Thessaloniki_ @ 7.537695
11 Greek_Thessaly_ @ 7.593434
12 Greek_Athens_ @ 8.038240
13 Greek_Macedonia_ @ 8.103490
14 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 8.234294
15 Greek_Northwest_ @ 8.272680
16 Albanian_Tirana_ @ 8.326913
17 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 8.711685
18 Italian_South_ @ 8.725285
19 Maltese_ @ 9.190999
20 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 9.199603

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian_ +50% Turk_Jew_ @ 1.662958

#5:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 34.99
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.17
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 13.12
4 Near_East 11.21
5 South_Central_Asian 6.97
6 North_African 4.57
7 Ancestral_Altaic 2.14

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 2.543158
2 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 4.543022
3 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.738855
4 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 4.895335
5 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.403305
6 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.057373
7 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.869631
8 Maltese_ @ 6.877032
9 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 7.007323
10 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.780839
11 Cretan_ @ 8.200263
12 French_Jew_ @ 8.422189
13 Sicilian_Center_ @ 9.015857
14 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.178296
15 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 9.187266
16 Central_Greek_ @ 9.301504
17 Italian_South_ @ 9.335117
18 Greek_ @ 9.441357
19 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 9.531925
20 Greek_Northwest_ @ 9.883576

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicilian_West_ +50% Sicilian_West_ @ 2.543158

WEST-CENTRAL:

#1:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 37.41
2 European_Early_Farmers 23.85
3 Near_East 11.43
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 10.55
5 South_Central_Asian 6.62
6 North_African 6.22
7 South_East_Asian 1.41

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_East_ @ 3.099984
2 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 3.621362
3 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.775010
4 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 3.779723
5 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 4.106573
6 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 4.626332
7 French_Jew_ @ 4.960768
8 Maltese_ @ 5.426188
9 Cretan_ @ 5.923887
10 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.187685
11 Romanian_Jew_ @ 6.312959
12 Sicilian_Center_ @ 6.634464
13 Italian_South_ @ 7.291585
14 Italian_Jew_ @ 7.712561
15 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 7.748605
16 Turk_Jew_ @ 7.856366
17 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 8.070871
18 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 8.245539
19 Greek_Athens_ @ 8.541050
20 Greek_Islands_ @ 9.158040

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cretan_ +50% Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 2.005831

#2:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.97
2 European_Early_Farmers 20.04
3 Near_East 13.87
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 9.96
5 North_African 8.12
6 South_Central_Asian 6.74
7 Ancestral_Altaic 2.14
8 South_Indian 1.58

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.736276
2 Turk_Jew_ @ 5.999772
3 French_Jew_ @ 6.098298
4 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 6.178716
5 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.198699
6 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 6.247543
7 Sicilian_West_ @ 6.434224
8 Cretan_ @ 6.525780
9 Italian_Jew_ @ 6.770332
10 Maltese_ @ 7.003444
11 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 7.225693
12 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 7.862339
13 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.967243
14 Ashkenazi_ @ 8.535243
15 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 8.589914
16 Sicilian_Center_ @ 9.644930
17 Italian_South_ @ 9.949820
18 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 9.990410
19 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 10.416610
20 Syrian_Jew_ @ 10.440678

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Tuscan_ +50% Lebanese_ @ 3.530565

#3:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.26
2 European_Early_Farmers 20.85
3 Near_East 13.15
4 North_African 8.97
5 South_Central_Asian 8.70
6 European_Hunters_Gatherers 8.58
7 East_African 1.81

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 5.407812
2 French_Jew_ @ 5.514675
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.906076
4 Turk_Jew_ @ 5.923426
5 Sicilian_West_ @ 6.577747
6 Italian_Jew_ @ 6.708899
7 Maltese_ @ 6.866210
8 Sicilian_East_ @ 7.081246
9 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 7.279457
10 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 7.428397
11 Cretan_ @ 7.700623
12 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 8.047595
13 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 8.409288
14 Syrian_Jew_ @ 9.822048
15 Romanian_Jew_ @ 9.871379
16 Ashkenazi_ @ 10.207126
17 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 10.305385
18 Sicilian_Center_ @ 10.980289
19 Libyan_Jew_ @ 11.195664
20 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 11.329981

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicilian_West_ +50% Syrian_Jew_ @ 3.240089

#4:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.29
2 European_Early_Farmers 23.40
3 Near_East 11.69
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 10.30
5 North_African 8.31
6 South_Central_Asian 6.24
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.06

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 2.861315
2 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.421393
3 Maltese_ @ 3.566539
4 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 4.077774
5 Sicilian_East_ @ 4.204833
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 4.297757
7 French_Jew_ @ 4.496070
8 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.789489
9 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 6.813919
10 Italian_Jew_ @ 6.941708
11 Turk_Jew_ @ 6.941759
12 Ashkenazi_ @ 7.273798
13 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.678531
14 Cretan_ @ 7.764060
15 Sicilian_Center_ @ 8.183866
16 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 8.680189
17 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 9.265414
18 Italian_South_ @ 9.386712
19 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 10.528207
20 Greek_Athens_ @ 10.744456

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Jew_ +50% Sicilian_West_ @ 1.976004

#5:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.46
2 European_Early_Farmers 20.62
3 Near_East 11.75
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 10.99
5 North_African 8.49
6 South_Central_Asian 8.06
7 Subsaharian 2.42
8 Ancestral_Altaic 1.39

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 5.341793
2 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.420531
3 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.570944
4 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.200271
5 Maltese_ @ 6.520250
6 French_Jew_ @ 6.611096
7 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 7.085169
8 Cretan_ @ 7.126055
9 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 7.241658
10 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 7.870277
11 Turk_Jew_ @ 8.087237
12 Romanian_Jew_ @ 8.327140
13 Ashkenazi_ @ 8.344472
14 Italian_Jew_ @ 8.486497
15 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 9.820114
16 Italian_South_ @ 10.002783
17 Sicilian_Center_ @ 10.048755
18 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 10.543817
19 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 10.546955
20 Greek_Athens_ @ 10.956947

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Crimean_Tatar_Mountain_ +50% Moroccan_Jew_ @ 4.594652

TRAPANI:

#1:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.55
2 European_Early_Farmers 25.30
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.84
4 Near_East 10.07
5 South_Central_Asian 6.67
6 North_African 6.18
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.49

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 2.006381
2 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 2.738036
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 3.606887
4 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 3.725422
5 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 4.260151
6 Sicilian_East_ @ 4.769204
7 Maltese_ @ 4.795037
8 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 6.204550
9 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.572705
10 French_Jew_ @ 6.639454
11 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.584731
12 Sicilian_Center_ @ 7.953833
13 Cretan_ @ 8.361055
14 Italian_South_ @ 8.841767
15 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.376777
16 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 9.674239
17 Italian_Jew_ @ 9.698817
18 Turk_Jew_ @ 9.922068
19 Central_Greek_ @ 10.026169
20 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 10.144558

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicilian_Trapani_ +50% Sicilian_West_ @ 1.642483

#2:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.37
2 European_Early_Farmers 25.50
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.83
4 Near_East 10.82
5 South_Central_Asian 5.92
6 North_African 3.97
7 Arctic 1.38
8 South_Indian 1.32
9 Khoisan 1.01

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.693358
2 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.137594
3 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 4.611430
4 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.199239
5 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 5.504409
6 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.793128
7 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.063374
8 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.454124
9 Maltese_ @ 7.005045
10 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.825382
11 Sicilian_Center_ @ 8.323089
12 French_Jew_ @ 8.550061
13 Cretan_ @ 8.993165
14 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.074714
15 Italian_South_ @ 9.087605
16 Central_Greek_ @ 9.185266
17 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 9.299128
18 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 9.397243
19 Greek_ @ 9.621340
20 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 9.627931

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi_Jew_ +50% Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 2.872395

#3:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 33.36
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.53
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.85
4 North_African 9.51
5 Near_East 8.90
6 South_Central_Asian 6.55
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.99
8 Khoisan 1.52

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 3.748083
2 Maltese_ @ 4.091312
3 Sicilian_West_ @ 4.436109
4 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 4.803963
5 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.940526
6 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 6.613809
7 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.908263
8 French_Jew_ @ 7.503216
9 Ashkenazi_ @ 8.357936
10 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 9.055315
11 Romanian_Jew_ @ 9.582324
12 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 10.163550
13 Italian_Jew_ @ 10.238949
14 Sicilian_Center_ @ 10.284099
15 Turk_Jew_ @ 10.525899
16 Cretan_ @ 10.912395
17 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 11.036469
18 Italian_South_ @ 11.376391
19 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 11.624815
20 Greek_Athens_ @ 12.114810

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Maltese_ +50% Sicilian_West_ @ 3.399800

#4:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 32.88
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.31
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.02
4 Near_East 10.56
5 North_African 8.13
6 South_Central_Asian 6.05
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.32
8 Austronesian 1.26

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 2.842270
2 Sicilian_West_ @ 3.727001
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 4.253541
4 Maltese_ @ 4.285264
5 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 5.857134
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 6.277922
7 Sicilian_East_ @ 6.726826
8 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 7.071680
9 French_Jew_ @ 7.619683
10 Ashkenazi_ @ 8.676015
11 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 9.953419
12 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 10.147414
13 Romanian_Jew_ @ 10.150165
14 Sicilian_Center_ @ 10.163247
15 Italian_Jew_ @ 10.318943
16 Turk_Jew_ @ 10.471272
17 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 11.290737
18 Cretan_ @ 11.292526
19 Italian_South_ @ 11.712289
20 Italian_Piedmont_ @ 12.118504

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cypriot_ +50% Portugese_ @ 2.525693

#5:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.10
2 European_Early_Farmers 23.73
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.07
4 Near_East 11.47
5 North_African 7.85
6 South_Central_Asian 5.52
7 Ancestral_Altaic 2.02

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West_ @ 2.885640
2 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 3.355285
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 3.405895
4 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 3.452081
5 Maltese_ @ 3.948021
6 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 3.961095
7 Sicilian_East_ @ 4.242286
8 French_Jew_ @ 6.154261
9 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.307179
10 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.220469
11 Sicilian_Center_ @ 7.934572
12 Cretan_ @ 8.188961
13 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 8.358187
14 Italian_Jew_ @ 8.535059
15 Turk_Jew_ @ 8.564822
16 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 8.635407
17 Italian_South_ @ 9.105717
18 Greek_Athens_ @ 9.980093
19 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 10.026924
20 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 10.407947

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek_Northwest_ +50% Moroccan_Jew_ @ 2.017499

Teucer

09-17-2017, 02:17 PM

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 02:21 PM

Teucer

09-17-2017, 02:22 PM

Was there much Norman influence in these areas at all?

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 02:47 PM

Was there much Norman influence in these areas at all?

Coastal northwest. But it's only about 7% of y-dna.

Teucer

09-17-2017, 02:50 PM

Coastal northwest. But it's only about 7% of y-dna.

I suppose we need some ancient samples to know for sure. An ancient Dorian Greek sample would help explain so many of these questions.

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 02:57 PM

I suppose we need some ancient samples to know for sure. An ancient Dorian Greek sample would help explain so many of these questions.

My guess is given that Apulia, southeast Sicily, and Laconia were all Doric areas and have genetic similarities, a Doric Greek would resemble at least one of these groups.

Teucer

09-17-2017, 03:00 PM

My guess is given that Apulia, southeast Sicily, and Laconia were all Doric areas and have genetic similarities, a Doric Greek would resemble at least one of these groups.

The trouble with using them as proxies is that very rarely are populations ever so isolated they stay the same for millennia. They are still a good starting point. A cross analysis between these three groups would at least give us SOME idea of what the Dorians were.

Teucer

09-17-2017, 03:03 PM

Isn't the Near Eastern component for Trapani rather low for a population that received a lot of Carthaginian input?

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 03:06 PM

Isn't the Near Eastern component for Trapani rather low for a population that received a lot of Carthaginian input?

Near East + North African in Trapani may have looked like Palermo or Agrigento once upon a time, but I think that region is where the Norman input actually shows, and I think Trapani received repopulation from the Italian mainland after Arab rule ended, to a much greater extent than did anywhere else in the west. Still, they have more of it than the southeast does.

The northeasterners are more or less identical to Cretans or Dodecanese. Which I could post one as an example if you wanted to see.

Teucer

09-17-2017, 03:12 PM

Near East + North African in Trapani may have looked like Palermo or Agrigento once upon a time, but I think that region is where the Norman input actually shows, and I think Trapani received repopulation from the Italian mainland after Arab rule ended, to a much greater extent than did anywhere else in the west. Still, they have more of it than the southeast does.

The northeasterners are more or less identical to Cretans or Dodecanese. Which I could post one as an example if you wanted to see.

Wait, I thought the SOUTHeasterners should look more identical due to the Dorian influence?

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 03:40 PM

Wait, I thought the SOUTHeasterners should look more identical due to the Dorian influence?

South easterners are those who are the most 'European' like who are closer to Peloponnesians. North easterners are close to Cretans and Dodecanese (I'd argue these islands have very little mainland Greek DNA and like Sicily absorbed additional MENA). Then the west of Sicily has even more MENA than the northeast.

Teucer

09-17-2017, 03:43 PM

South easterners are those who are the most 'European' like who are closer to Peloponnesians. North easterners are close to Cretans and Dodecanese (I'd argue these islands have very little mainland Greek DNA and like Sicily absorbed additional MENA). Then the west of Sicily has even more MENA than the northeast.

But don't Cretans also have a lot of North European ancestry too? More so than the North East Sicilians?

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 03:44 PM

But don't Cretans also have a lot of North European ancestry too? More so than the North East Sicilians?

Yes, but not by a lot.
Maybe those results I posted are more like Dodecanese.

ADonkeyBrain

09-17-2017, 07:49 PM

Let me try and justify my answer. Remember, I'm still learning about all this stuff.

I am assuming the native component for Sicilians is the early European farmers which peaks in Sardinia (right?), along with some Caucasus since the first farmers were from Anatolia. Overall, the Sardinian component remains largely similar throughout the island.

Then you have higher input in the South East from hunter gatherers which probably came from the Dorians, higher Phoenician in the West which explains the higher Near East. What contradicts what I say a bit is the high Caucasus input in the North East. Perhaps there were pre Dorian Greek settlements there? The difference between North East and South East in ratio between Caucasus and European Hunter Gatherer is roughly the same. 4 more Caucasus in North East and 4 less H-G, 4 more H-G in South East and 4 less Caucasus.

Well, if you want to be really strict about it, the really "native" component would be the native hunter-gatherers (WHG), we have one such sample from Sicily now. :)

Early European farmers are Anatolian farmers but with some increasing WHG in the West (e.g. compare Stuttgart or Iberian Early Neolithic to Starcevo). Some early Neolithic Anatolian samples did carry a little bit of the Caucasus/Iran stuff apparently but it was very little, it starts increasing later on in Central Anatolia (the samples from Tepecik-Çiftlik) and reaches the Aegean and likely the rest of the Balkans by the Chalcolithic/Bronze Age (the Minoans in Crete and the Mycenaeans in the Peloponnese had it as we know and many of the Bronze Age Balkan samples also likely had it according to their ADMIXTURE results but those genomes haven't been released yet for further, amateur tests and the paper didn't attempt to model them with Caucasus/Iran). It likely also reached Italy, at least in appreciable amounts, via contacts with the Balkans and the Aegean in the Bronze Age is my guess.

To my recollection, we don't yet have Neolithic Sicilian samples to see what they were exactly like. For example the Peloponnese Neolithic samples were a bit closer to the Levant Neolithic than the Anatolian and northern Greek Neolithic samples were so we could see some variation in the rest of the extreme south of Europe.

Keep in mind that steppe populations were a mix of CHG (Caucasus) and EHG (Eastern Hunter-Gatherer) so theoretically more steppe ancestry should increase the "Caucasus" here too. But I have no clue exactly what this calculator bases its categories on, maybe Sikeliot can tell us, so who knows. Overall the Anatolian Neolithic type of ancestry is still the most important component in southern Europe if we go by "distinct", more proximate populations.

The issue is, the Mycenaean results challenged my notion that Sicilians, Cretans, and Dodecanese have remained largely similar for 2000 years... now I believe that compared to Mycenaeans, they all (except southeast Sicily) have acquired more MENA influences. The Mycenaean results had higher Sardinian-like affinity. In Sicily, this is highest in the southeast.

Yeah and some more steppe compared to the samples, while the Greek mainland has acquired less near eastern but even more steppe. Based on some things I saw with the K36, I think Southeast Sicily has acquired more Near Eastern ancestry too but as you said less of it than the West. Though we obviously don't know what Sicily looked exactly like in the Bronze-Iron Age and how deep those small differences might be.

South easterners are those who are the most 'European' like who are closer to Peloponnesians. North easterners are close to Cretans and Dodecanese (I'd argue these islands have very little mainland Greek DNA and like Sicily absorbed additional MENA). Then the west of Sicily has even more MENA than the northeast.

I'm not sure about that right now. If ancient samples continue to have as little steppe as the ones we have now (while keeping outliers like the Armenoi sample in mind, who is the only steppe-having Cretan we have so far), it's possible that even the smaller amount of that sort of ancestry would have been carried by relatively large populations (to Crete, at least, if not Cyprus) or intense continuing contact to make up for it.

E.g., as a completely hypothetical example, say ancient Cretans turn out to be 15% steppe and we assume even a very high 50% steppe population from mainland Greece brought it there, you'd need 30% of mainland Greek ancestry over time in Crete. It would depend on how much they end up having on average.

Lavrentis

09-17-2017, 07:53 PM

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 09:51 PM

I don't get it, are you insinuating that the orignal inhabitans of Sicily were a Greek-like population? Well, that's wrong. When the Greeks arrived in Sicilty, the island had already a population living there that was descended from Iberia.

This has never been proven. There is no link through y-dna between Sicily and Iberia in subclades -- the R1b in Sicily is of the eastern type that is found in Anatolia or Armenia, OR the Italic subclades. The only reason one ancient Greek writer thought the Sicanians were Iberian is because of one or two words in their language. Besides, the Iberians of those days would not have been like those today, and would not have carried all of the Celtic type DNA that modern Iberians have.

If it is true they were from Iberia, very little DNA evidence of this remains today. Sicanians also lived in Malta and there is no Maltese link to Iberia.

This is a facial reconstruction of a Sicanian woman:

https://cdn-attachments.timesofmalta.com/local_05_1_temp-1368685899-51947d4b-620x348.jpg

Lavrentis

09-17-2017, 09:57 PM

This has never been proven. There is no link through y-dna between Sicily and Iberia in subclades -- the R1b in Sicily is of the eastern type that is found in Anatolia or Armenia, OR the Italic subclades. The only reason one ancient Greek writer thought the Sicanians were Iberian is because of one or two words in their language. Besides, the Iberians of those days would not have been like those today, and would not have carried all of the Celtic type DNA that modern Iberians have.

If it is true they were from Iberia, very little DNA evidence of this remains today. Sicanians also lived in Malta and there is no Maltese link to Iberia.

This is a facial reconstruction of a Sicanian woman:

https://cdn-attachments.timesofmalta.com/local_05_1_temp-1368685899-51947d4b-620x348.jpg

Were the Sicilian natives back then closer to modern-day Sardinians? Because that's what I've been thinking.

Sikeliot

09-17-2017, 09:58 PM

Where the Sicilian natives back then closer to modern-day Sardinians? Because that's what I've been thinking.

Could be. If anything Sicanians might have been Sardinian-like or a mixture of Sardinian and Caucasian. Either way they could have been close to Minoans. They were pre-Indo European.

What is clear is the higher NE European in the southeast is from Greeks, and the higher MENA in the west is from actual MENAs.