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The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 02:25 PM
El AVE ya 'vuela' hasta Valencia




España es ya el país de Europa con más Km. en servicio de alta velocidad
El Rey destaca que la línea favorecerá 'la economía y la cohesión social'
Blanco sitúa a Valencia en una nueva centralidad en el Mediterráneo
El convoy ha completado los 391 kilómetros de alta velocidad en 93 minutos





A las 12.41 horas, el AVE a Valencia ha alcanzado Valencia. Desde la estación Puerta de Atocha de Madrid, ha recorrido 391 kilómetros de alta velocidad en apenas 93 minutos. Sin sobresaltos. Y con dos minutos de adelanto.

A bordo han viajado sus Majestades los Reyes de España, acompañados por el presidente del Gobierno, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, el ministro de Fomento, José Blanco, y los presidentes de las Comunidades Autónomas de Madrid y Valencia, Esperanza Aguirre y Francisco Camps, que han presidido la inauguración de esta nueva línea.

También se ha 'estrenado' oficialmente la estación Joaquín Sorolla de Valencia, que acogerá los trenes de alta velocidad hasta que se construya la futura Estación Central de Valencia, prevista en el corazón de esta urbe.

Durante la inauguración, el Rey Juan Carlos [vea el vídeo (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/18/videos/1292680549.html)] se ha mostrado orgulloso con el AVE a Valencia y ha asegurado que estas obras "marcan un hito" en la expansión de la red de Alta Velocidad española.

"Esta extraordinaria conexión va a favorecer nuestra economía y nuestra cohesión social y territorial. Me siento orgulloso por la dimensión y calidad de estas obras", ha expresado el monarca.

Por su parte, el presidente del Gobierno, que ha calificado la jornada de "histórica", ha exaltado las potencialidades de España [vea el vídeo (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/18/videos/1292680386.html)]: "Acostumbrado a tener días difíciles, hoy es un día para ganar la confianza que como españoles debemos tener en nuestras posibilidades. Cada vez que sumamos juntos somos ganadores como país".

"Hoy es un día especial para la Comunidad Valenciana y Madrid, o lo que es lo mismo, España, porque son dos regiones transformadoras, con un gran potencial económico y espíritu emprendedor", ha agregado en su discurso el presidente del Ejecutivo.

Más técnico ha sido el ministro de Fomento, José Blanco, [vea el vídeo (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/18/videos/1292680275.html)]"algo más que llevar el mar a Madrid", puesto que creará una nueva centralidad en el Mediterráneo. quien ha asegurado que la nueva línea de alta velocidad permite



El país europeo con más kilómetros de AVE


Esta idea, ha continuado, "se articula en torno al futuro Corredor Mediterráneo", que tiene a Valencia en su eje. Al norte, "desde Valencia con el AVE a Castellón-Cataluña y la frontera Francesa"; al sur, desde Valencia hasta Murcia y Andalucía".

Blanco ha subrayado que, por encima de las diferencias, "entre todos" se ha creado una línea, en la que han trabajado alrededor de 9.800 personas, y que sitúa a España como el país de Europa con más kilómetros de alta velocidad, tanto en servicio como en construcción.

"Cada día, los trenes AVE recorren 104.000 kilómetros, o 2,5 vueltas al mundo diarias, abriendo contratos y mercados a las empresas españolas", ha insistido el ministro.

Blanco ha presumido de datos. La alta velocidad reducirá entre un 35 y un 30% la siniestrabilidad en las carreteras, permitirá reducir en 842.000 toneladas las emisiones de CO2 hasta 2016 y generará 136.000 nuevos empleos.



La línea más rentable


Tampoco han faltado los elogios por parte de la presidenta la de Comunidad de Madrid, Esperanza Aguirre, que ha hecho hincapié en las "estrechas relaciones" de ambas autonomías. Además, ha recordado que la línea Madrid-Valencia será la más rentable de las actuales, con una estimación de más de tres millones de pasajeros en su primer año de funcionamiento.

Aguirre también se ha mostrado convencida de que el Ministerio de Fomento dará prioridad al transporte de mercancías en las infraestructuras ferroviarias que han quedado liberadas tras la puesta en marcha del AVE porque "el Puerto de Valencia es también el de Madrid".

Para el jefe del Consell, Francisco Camps, el AVE sitúa a la Comunidad Valenciana "en igualdad de condiciones y de oportunidades" que las del resto de las autonomías conectadas por alta velocidad ferroviaria.
"Se unen el centro y el Mediterréo, su unen la ilusión y las expectativas", ha insistido Camps. A su juicio, este servicio supone la "incorporación a la modernidad" de la región, a expensas de que los trenes lleguen a Castellón y Alicante.

En realidad, el primer AVE que ha llegado a la capital valenciana no es en el que han viajado los Reyes, sino el de periodistas, que salió 10 minutos antes que el de la inauguración oficial de Atocha. Éste último partió con tres minutos de retraso de Madrid, a las 11.08 cuando estaba programado para las 11.05 horas [Vea el vídeo de la salida (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/17/valencia/1292606431.html)].

Sin embargo, el tren ha compensado su retraso inicial durante el trayecto y ha llegado con puntualidad a Valencia. La entrada oficial en la estación Joaquín Sorolla incluso se ha adelantado dos minutos sobre el horario previsto.

A diferencia del primer AVE a Albacete, que no iba al máximo de su ocupación, el del estreno a Valencia ha despertado una gran expectación, ha ido completo y en él se ha podido consultar la prensa en sus ediciones valencianas. Entre los diarios disponibles se encontraba, EL MUNDO que incluye este sábado un suplemento especial con toda la información sobre la nueva línea.

Los Reyes han viajado en el primer vagón del tren, en el coche número 1, junto a Zapatero, Rajoy, Blanco, Aguirre, Camps, Gallardón y Barberá. En la comitiva, también se han integrado todos los ex presidentes de la Generalitat hasta la fecha (Joan Lerma, Eduardo Zaplana y José Luis Olivas), así como diputados, senadores y representantes políticos históricos de la Comunidad Valenciana.



Protestas ante la estación del AVE


En las inmediaciones de la estación provisional, se han reunido varios centenares de manifestantes que han tratado de aprovechar el acto para hacer visibles sus protestas y reivindicaciones.

El grupo, en cualquier caso, no podía ser más heterogéneo. Desde sindicalistas de la CGT al grito de "menos AVE y más regionales", a vecinos contra la posible instalación del almacén en Zarra, pasando por miembros de la Asociación por la Custodia Compartida que, ataviados con camisetas amarillas, exhiben una pancarta con el lema 'Nos quitan a los hijos y nos ponen el tren'. Y por supuesto, decenas de curiosos.
Al otro lado del cinturón de seguridad, decenas de invitados del ámbito de la economía, la sociedad y la política valencianas han tenido el privilegio de acceder a la terminal ferroviaria para asistir en directo a la inauguración.


Satisfacción en la clase empresarial


No ha faltado a la cita el presidente de Feria Valencia, Alberto Catalá, para quien el AVE supondrá "una fuente de negocios" para la ente que dirige, que hará, además, un esfuerzo para captar clientes en el centro de la Península.

Para el que fuera presidente de la Cámara de Comercio, Arturo Virosque, se trata del evento "más importante para Valencia en los últimos 20 años" y uno de los más relevantes a lo largo de sus 80 años de vida.

Por su parte, el secretario general de la patronal valenciana, Cierval, Rafael Montero, la nueva línea de alta velocidad supone un "reto" que los empresarios de la Comunidad "sabrán aprovechar". En su opinión, el AVE tendrá efectos positivos inmediatos en los sectores del comercio y el turismo, y a medio plazo en el inmobiliario.

A juicio del presidente de la Autoridad Portuaria de Valencia, Rafael Aznar, la línea tendrá un "triple beneficio" porque "impulsará el transporte de mercancías" a través del ferrocarril, atraerá talentos y nuevas empresas a la Comunidad e impulsará el negocio de cruceros.



Regreso a Madrid, con visita


Tras la agitada mañana, los Reyes y demás autoridades públicas se han trasladado hasta la Casa Forestal, donde han disfrutado de un almuerzo en el corazón del Parque Natural de Devesa-El Saler.

Pero la agenda oficial aún marcaba una cita relevante. Por la tarde, y después de embarcarse de nuevo en el AVE con destino a Madrid, los Reyes y el resto de representantes políticos han efectuado una parada en la estación de Requena-Utiel (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/18/valencia/1292700046.html).

Allí les esperaban los alcaldes de Requena, Adelo Montes, y Utiel, José Luis Ramírez, que han asistido a la inauguración oficial de esta infraestructura, cuyo coste asciende a 12,4 millones de euros.



Invitados ilustres


Junto a miembros del Gobierno valenciano, también ha acudido una amplia representación de dirigentes socialistas, liderados por el secretario general del PSPV, Jorge Alarte. En esta comitiva, también ha destacado presentala edil en el Ayuntamiento de Valencia, Ana Botella, que suena como sucesora del delegado del Gobierno, Ricardo Peralta, a quien ya se le ha anunciado su destitución.

Asimismo, han estado presentes el ex presidente de la Generalitat, Eduardo Zaplana, la intendente del Palau de les Arts, Helga Smith, el presidente de Mercadona, Juan Roig; el director general de AVE, Diego Lorente, así como el presidente de la Confederación Empresarial de Hostelería y Turismo de la Comunidad Valenciana, Juan Carlos Gelabert, entre otros.

La espera ha dado lugar, además, a reuniones improvisadas, como la que han tenido como protagonistas al alcalde de Castellón, Alberto Fabra, y a la secretaria general de Infraestructuras, Inmaculada López Piñero.



Dos décadas de espera


Tras 20 años de espera, la alta velocidad llega a Valencia. Atrás una inversión de 6.600 millones de euros para dibujar el eje central de las futuras conexiones de alta velocidad del centro con el sureste peninsular.

Del AVE ya se ha dicho casi todo. El primer tren en pruebas con pasajeros llegó a la capital del Turia el pasado 13 de octubre (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/10/13/valencia/1286981068.html), con Blanco, Camps y Rita Barberá abordo. "La historia se escribe desde hoy de forma diferente", aseguró Camps durante su intervención en la estación provisional.

Las cifras que han ido aportando las distintas administraciones durante los últimos meses sobre su impacto económico asustan. Un volumen de negocio de 22.500 millones de euros, un impacto económico de casi 3.600 millones anuales y la creación de 136.000 puestos de trabajo (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/10/13/valencia/1286993733.html)en el período 2010-2016 son algunos de los datos más destacables de la repercusión que tendrá la alta velocidad en tierras valencianas.

Nueve de cada diez empresas de la Comunidad con más de 100 trabajadores están convencidas de las bonanzas del AVE, mientras que, según la secretaria general de Infraestructuras del Ministerio, Inmaculada Rodríguez-Piñero, en el año 2011 se calcula que los viajeros de negocio y ocio gastarán 237 millones de euros (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/10/18/valencia/1287397442.html)en Valencia.

La nueva línea de alta velocidad a Valencia sustituirá el 55% de los trayectos que se realizan en avión (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/03/valencia/1291375986.html) entre las capitales madrileña y valenciana, así como el 25% de los desplazamientos en coche y el 5% de los viajes en autobús.

¿Qué valdrá subirse al AVE? El billete ordinario costará 79,8 euros (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/11/11/valencia/1289463371.html). 143,7 en clase business. El 12 de noviembre salieron a la venta en taquillas e internet. Renfe ha vendido más de 75.000 tickets en un mes.

Cada día circularán 30 trenes del AVE, 15 en cada dirección, de los cuales 11 harán el viaje directo entre Madrid y Valencia en una hora y 35 minutos a más de 330 kilómetros por hora y los otros cuatro harán parada en Cuenca y Requena-Utiel. Estos últimos tendrán una duración de una hora y 50 minutos. En viernes y sábados, el número de frecuencias se elevará a 16.


El Mundo (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/12/17/valencia/1292606431.html) (sábado 18/12/2010)

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 02:27 PM
Congrats, guys, good work :thumbs up
Picture provided for by the Flemish press (http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/2907/Magazine/article/detail/1197468/2010/12/18/Hogesnelheidslijn-verbindt-Madrid-met-Valencia.dhtml), the original Spanish article contains a video:

http://www.demorgen.be/static/FOTO/pe/3/8/2/media_xl_3982802.jpg?20101218153652

Don
12-19-2010, 02:39 PM
Now some "slurps" to our people, so often insulted by you and after insulting as a group rat one of the members of spanish community.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PWxxiBMblkY/TKOp2tijp2I/AAAAAAAAASA/0yPFTqSzgeM/s400/perlas.jpg

http://www.forumuniversitas.org/Fotos/Temas/leyenda_negra.jpg

Good boy.
Good slurp, keep tributing...

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 02:40 PM
"yawns".

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 05:16 PM
Yeah, now you can go from Madrid to Valencia in less time than from Valencia to Barcelona. Divide et Impera!!

Ibericus
12-19-2010, 05:22 PM
And second in the world after China.

Lábaru
12-19-2010, 06:18 PM
Yeah, now you can go from Madrid to Valencia in less time than from Valencia to Barcelona. Divide et Impera!!

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/facepalming.gif

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 06:27 PM
If you don't admit that the fact of prioritizing high-speed ways between any point and Madrid before the economic strongpoint of Spain (the Mediterranean corridor) has been done for sociopolitical rather pragmatical reasons, then you're just blinded by your chauvinism, no matter what you say.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 06:30 PM
If you don't admit that the fact of prioritizing high-speed ways between any point and Madrid before the economic strongpoint of Spain (the Mediterranean corridor) has been done for sociopolitical rather pragmatical reasons, then you're just blinded by your chauvinism, no matter what you say.

It actually makes sense to connect Madrid to the economic centre of Spain (Catalonia) before connecting Catalonia closer together because the connections in Catalonia are probably already top notch and Madrid itself is also not just a political centre but also a growing economic one (let alone when it comes to transportation).

In that respect I think that Spain partially (sensibly) follows the French model. Paris is the core of France in all respect. In Spain Catalonia is the economic heart and Madrid more the political heart so they should be linked. That, my dear friend,is how you build an infrastructure in a nation with multiple hearts.

The most important motorways and railways in my country also connect the economic/political heart of the Randstad Holland with the other "minor" economical centres such as Eindhoven. It's no use to build a motorway from Eindhoven to Tilburg if it isn't connected to The Hague don't you think ?

Lábaru
12-19-2010, 06:33 PM
If you don't admit that the fact of prioritizing high-speed ways between any point and Madrid before the economic strongpoint of Spain (the Mediterranean corridor) has been done for sociopolitical rather pragmatical reasons, then you're just blinded by your chauvinism, no matter what you say.

Os tenemos oprimidos y como etnia inferior debes aceptar nuestras decisiones.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 06:41 PM
It actually makes sense to connect Madrid to the economic centre of Spain (Catalonia) before connecting Catalonia closer together because the connections in Catalonia are probably already top notch and Madrid itself is also not just a political centre but also a growing economic one.

In that respect I think that Spain (sensibly) follows the French model. Paris is the core of France in all respect. In Spain Catalonia is the economic heart and Madrid more the political heart so they should be linked. That, my dear friend,is how you build an infrastructure in a nation with multiple hearts.

The most important motorways and railways in my country also connect the economic/political heart of the Randstad Holland with the other "minor" economical centres such as Eindhoven. It's no use to build a motorway from Eindhoven to Tilburg if it isn't connected to The Hague don't you think ?

It's not joining Madrid with Barcelona, something that's logical and that, btw, lasted much more than expected. It's the fact of prioritizing the connexion of the capital with any point to other connexions which would make much more sense for the economy. First 'the capital', then the rest. Specially if that means that Madridians can have their beach closer.

Politically, they've always tried that such a thing as the former Crown of Aragon can't even be considered again, they perfectly know why. If it is prohibited in the Spanish Constitution for the regions to join in federation, it's not precisely because they feared that Extremadura might want to join Andalusia...

Lábaru
12-19-2010, 06:46 PM
It's not joining Madrid with Barcelona, something that's logical and that, btw, lasted much more than expected. It's the fact of prioritizing the connexion of the capital with any point to other connexions which would make much more sense for the economy. First 'the capital', then the rest. Specially if that means that Madridians can have their beach closer.

Politically, they've always tried that such a thing as the former Crown of Aragon can't even be considered again, they perfectly know why. If it is prohibited in the Spanish Constitution for the regions to join in federation, it's not precisely because they feared that Extremadura might want to join Andalusia...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_L-3efeduLnc/S-LcbvrMTQI/AAAAAAAAA70/S8A5V91q7DY/s320/bebe-llorando.jpg

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 06:48 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_M5p8AnoRE0U/StH8IO45fYI/AAAAAAAACNA/OVM0Xj63NjU/s400/butifarra.jpg

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 06:49 PM
Well Ibex.. the thing is: Madridians on Catalan beaches means income for Catalonia. ;) So what do you think is a better idea then: starting off in Catalonia and forgetting about Madrid ?

Sorry pal.. I may need to remind you that Madrid is the capital. And distances in Catalonia may not be completely mandating a high-speed network in Catalonia alone...

Lábaru
12-19-2010, 06:51 PM
Mira Ibex, llorón, esto es lo que haría Madrid si pensaran como tú y los otros independentistas ridículos que lo quieren todo.

http://i42.tinypic.com/90q1x3.jpg


¿Te suena? es una parodia, seguro que alguien tan espabilado como tu la pillas ¿verdad?

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 06:54 PM
Well Ibex.. the thing is: Madridians on Catalan beaches means income for Catalonia. ;) So what do you think is a better idea then: starting off in Catalonia and forgetting about Madrid ?

Sorry pal.. I may need to remind you that Madrid is the capital. And distances in Catalonia may not be completely mandating a high-speed network in Catalonia alone...

I think you didn't quite get it. Valencia is not in Catalonia.

And high speed in the Mediterranean corridor makes sense because the Golden Banana (Valencia to Genoa) is the second economic corridor in Europe after the Blue Banana.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 06:55 PM
Mira Ibex, llorón, esto es lo que haría Madrid si pensaran como tú y los otros independentistas ridículos que lo quieren todo.

http://i42.tinypic.com/90q1x3.jpg


¿Te suena? es una parodia, seguro que alguien tan espabilado como tu la pillas ¿verdad?

Lo triste es que no es ninguna parodia.

Alvarado
12-19-2010, 06:58 PM
The crown of Aragón can't even be considered again because Valencians and Aragonese, for the most part, don't want it.

It's not a secret that Catalan independentism is a residual movement in Valencia. There's no need to forbid such thing.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 06:58 PM
I think you didn't quite get it. Valencia is not in Catalonia.

And high speed in the Mediterranean corridor makes sense because the Golden Banana (Valencia to Genoa) is the second economic corridor in Europe after the Blue Banana.
Yes but you don't seem to get it that Madrid is the capital and a growing transport and financial hub and it needs to be connected to all parts of Spain. Catalonia or the coast for that matter has received it's fair share of attention over the past 30 years and now the hinterland needs to be developed and that's what they are doing.

And simply putting up transportation networks in the economic heartlands without linking them properly to the political centres doesn't really work.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/AVE.png


Besides Catalonia is pretty well linked to the outside world is it ? Besides.. I think that it would be sensible for Spain and France to link their countries over the Zaragoza line and via Barcelona.

Lábaru
12-19-2010, 06:59 PM
Lo triste es que no es ninguna parodia.

Bueno lo triste eres tú, pero mira, van a obligar a los hoteles madrileños a poner esto para comer si quieren cuatro estrellas.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_usmlawJZYLU/S_pjZzzXhQI/AAAAAAAAAAc/urmkAE8xjyI/s320/callos+con+garbanzos.jpg

Toma, te ayudo, que te veo espesito.

http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/883252/31/desayuno/catalan/obligatorio/


De cualquier manera a ver si coges esta otra parodia y aciertas de quienes se ríen.

http://i33.tinypic.com/35aoy6f.jpg

Don
12-19-2010, 07:03 PM
Mira Ibex, llorón, esto es lo que haría Madrid si pensaran como tú y los otros independentistas ridículos que lo quieren todo.

http://i42.tinypic.com/90q1x3.jpg


¿Te suena? es una parodia, seguro que alguien tan espabilado como tu la pillas ¿verdad?

¡Tela marinerísima!

Pero cuanta enfermedad por el amor de Dios.

Que país.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 07:12 PM
One thing I don't understand is that AVE uses the German-build S103 at the Madrid-Barcelona- line (and now also Madrid-Valencia-line) instead of a Spanish-build AVE Class 102 (produced by Talgo together with Bombardier) ? The French only use French trains. There also seem to be high speed trains on Spanish rails produced by Alstom (which is French).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/AVE_Tarragona-Madrid.jpg
AVE Class 102

They can build their own: why import them ? Could this be EU-regulations at work ?

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 07:15 PM
Whatever.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 07:20 PM
Yes but you don't seem to get it that Madrid is the capital and a growing transport and financial hub and it needs to be connected to all parts of Spain. Catalonia or the coast for that matter has received it's fair share of attention over the past 30 years and now the hinterland needs to be developed and that's what they are doing.

And simply putting up transportation networks in the economic heartlands without linking them properly to the political centres doesn't really work.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/AVE.png


Besides Catalonia is pretty well linked to the outside world is it ? Besides.. I think that it would be sensible for Spain and France to link their countries over the Zaragoza line and via Barcelona.

Your whole post reminds me another reason why independence is a must.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 07:21 PM
Independence without an hinterland ? Good luck...

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 07:22 PM
Independence without an hinterland ? Good luck...

We have our own hinterland. No need to give presents elsewhere.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 07:23 PM
We have our own hinterland. No need to give presents elsewhere.
So Catalonia does not import anything from the rest of Spain ? And how will you fare without the tourists that come down from the rest of Spain ? I am not so sure whether they would be so happy to visit Catalonia when the place has a new (and probably expensive) currency while they might just as well go further South.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 07:26 PM
So Catalonia does not import anything from the rest of Spain ? And how will you fare without the tourists that come down from the rest of Spain ? I am not so sure whether they would be so happy to visit Catalonia when the place has a new (and probably expensive) currency while they might just as well go further South.

Thinking boycotts last forever is just stupid.

Anyway, any handicap that might take place is minor in comparison with the benefits.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 07:28 PM
Thinking boycotts last forever is just stupid.
It's not a boycott. It's economic reality. It's how stuff works. If I can go to an expensive Belgium while I can get the same stuff in the Netherlands I'd stay in my own country. That's how economy works.


Anyway, any handicap that might take place is minor in comparison with the benefits.
Then I wonder what the benefits will be because I frankly see none. Catalonia has an excellent position: it has political, social and economic independence from the rest of Spain already. Why go any further ?

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 07:33 PM
It's not boycott. It's economic reality. It's how stuff works. If I can go to an expensive Belgium while I can get the same stuff in the Netherlands I'd stay in my own country. That's how economy works.

Then I wonder what the benefits will be because I frankly see none. Catalonia has an excellent position: it has political, social and economic independence from the rest of Spain already. Why go any further ?

Lol, I'm not going to write a whole essay here, there's lots of sources out there in the net. Just think for a while if you'd like the Netherlands to be just 'a rich region of Germany'... :rolleyes:

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 07:38 PM
Lol, I'm not going to write a whole essay here, there's lots of sources out there in the net. Just think for a while if you'd like the Netherlands to be just 'a rich region of Germany'... :rolleyes:
I don't think that the medieval Dutch would have given a flying fuck during the Eighty Years War if Spain would have respected our religion and our customs and laws. At least if you read pre-war reports or notes they considered themselves loyal subjects but the overall feeling was: "Rome is far away".

De facto we could have been under the Spanish Crown but with our own laws, religion etc. No.. the Spanish had this idiot of a King that wanted gleichschaltung and a fight "against heretics" and he lost his most valuable provinces in Europe outside Spain because of it.

And when it comes to the Germans: as long as the Germans would respect our souvereignty on our own soil, our language, our customs, our traditions and as long as we had equal representation within the Bundestag.. I see no reason not to come up with a pan-German confederation.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 07:47 PM
I think that the Wilhelmus (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelmus) is rather clear on the seperation from Spain and frankly the declaration itself was more from the King's soldiers, religious persecution and taxes then from anything else --only later on did it become a real struggle for independence..


Guillermo de Nassau
soy yo, de sangre germánica
a mi patria fiel
permaneceré hasta que muera
Un príncipe de Orange
soy, libre y valeroso
al Rey de España
siempre le he honrado.



Wilhelmus van Nassouwe
ben ik, van Duitsen bloed,
den vaderland getrouwe
blijf ik tot in den dood.
Een Prinse van Oranje
ben ik, vrij, onverveerd,
den Koning van Hispanje
heb ik altijd geëerd.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 07:48 PM
And when it comes to the Germans: as long as the Germans would respect our souvereignty on our own soil, our language, our customs, our traditions and as long as we had equal representation within the Bundestag.. I see no reason not to come up with a pan-German confederation.


Lol, better do not, for the sake of the Dutch.

Spain is not a confederation à la Suisse, anyway. It's a country that has tried to follow a French method of assimilation since the first Bourbon, and that since then has made of the Castilian nation the only Spanish nation possible, so there is no representation at the same level.

As usual, you have the proof in Portugal. I'm pretty sure that the Portuguese wouldn't want to join as a Spanish region even if that increased a little their purchase power. They're not stupid.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 07:52 PM
Lol, better do not, for the sake of the Dutch.

Spain is not a confederation à la Suisse, anyway. It's a country that has tried to follow a French method of assimilation since the first Bourbon, and that since then has made of the Castilian nation the only Spanish nation possible, so there is no representation at the same level.

As usual, you have the proof in Portugal. I'm pretty sure that the Portuguese wouldn't want to join as a Spanish region even if that increased a little their purchase power. They're not stupid.

They tried and it failed big time and they learned their lesson and that's why in the present constitution there are so many rights for the autonomous communities.

And when it comes to Portugal. That became independent during the 17th century and there seems to be a Pan-Iberian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Federalism) ideology.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 07:57 PM
And when it comes to Portugal. That became independent during the 17th century and there seems to be a Pan-Iberian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Federalism) ideology.


If in 1640, the Spanish troops had focused on Lisbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Restoration_War) instead of on Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Revolt), then we might be talking from a very different perspective nowadays...

And pan-Iberianism is a joke. The Portuguese know quite well what a union with Spain would mean for them...

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 08:00 PM
If in 1640, the Spanish troops had focused on Lisbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Restoration_War) instead of on Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Revolt), then we might be talking from a very different perspective nowadays...
Yes.. but that was a different Spain was it ?



And pan-Iberianism is a joke. The Portuguese know quite well what a union with Spain would mean for them...
Yes. It would mean re-unification with Galicia for them and a bigger hinterland. With the Portuguese seaside cities becoming important ports for Spain... and probably a very dangerous competitor for Catalonia. It would also be very likely that there would be a restoration of the Kingdom of Portugal but then under the Spanish Royal Family.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 08:10 PM
Yes.. but that was a different Spain was it ?


Yes. It would mean re-unification with Galicia for them and a bigger hinterland. With the Portuguese seaside cities becoming important ports for Spain... and probably a very dangerous competitor for Catalonia. It would also be very likely that there would be a restoration of the Kingdom of Portugal but then under the Spanish Royal Family.


In the long run, they'd be a new Galicia. While now, the way they are now, they don't have to suffer any kind of Spanish assimilation. The world isn't all about economy. I wouldn't kill my family for all the money in the world.

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 08:12 PM
In the long run, they'd be a new Galicia. While now, the way they are now, they don't have to suffer any kind of Spanish assimilation. The world isn't all about economy. I wouldn't kill my family for all the money in the world.
I don't think they would be as it would probably be a dual monarchy with Galicia getting transferred to Portugal. And yes... Portugal at present isn't one of the richest countries in Europe. A closer economic union with Spain would certainly benefit them.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 08:24 PM
I don't think they would be as it would probably be a dual monarchy with Galicia getting transferred to Portugal.


That's some big lol. You definitely don't get how the Spanish way works...

The Lawspeaker
12-19-2010, 08:28 PM
That's some big lol. You definitely don't get how the Spanish way works...
What do you think you would gain in the case of independence ?

antonio
12-19-2010, 10:00 PM
The crown of Aragón can't even be considered again because Valencians and Aragonese, for the most part, don't want it.


Taking into account the historical analphabetism (if not manipulation) of average Aragonese that's not relevant at all. I'm not preciselly a fan of Catalonian nationalism, but Aragon sharing state with Castille instead of Catalonia or "Navarre" it's plain bizarre: so, facing that historical dilema, I would prefer to maintain the current status quo. Specially taking into account the kind of nationalism ruling Catalonia, a bizarre mixture of money and multiculturalism loving. On the other side, as a Galician descendant, my kingdom from XIIIth is named Castille, besides romantical ahistorical views on that matter.

Alvarado
12-19-2010, 10:12 PM
De facto we could have been under the Spanish Crown but with our own laws, religion etc. No.. the Spanish had this idiot of a King that wanted gleichschaltung and a fight "against heretics" and he lost his most valuable provinces in Europe outside Spain because of it.


I don't think Felipe was an idiot, but intransigent for sure. It's undeniable that he was determined to end with heretics.


"Yo ni pienso ni quiero ser señor de hereges y [...] si ser pudiere, yo procurare de acomodar lo de la religión en aquellos estados sin venir a las armas, porque veo que sera la total destruycion dellos el tomallos, pero que, si no se puede remediar todo como yo lo desseo sin venir a ellas, estoy determinado de tomallas, y yr yo mesmo en persona a hallarme en la execucion de todo, sin que me lo pueda estorvar ni peligro, ni la ruina de todos aquellos payses, ni de todos los demás que me quedan, a que no haga lo que un principe christiano y temeroso de Dios deve hazer en servicio suyo, mantenimiento de su fee catholica, y autoridad y honrra dessa sede apostólica".
[Felipe II a su embajador en Roma, 12 de agost. de 1566]

Obviously, some facets of his character were magnified by Black Legend propaganda.

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 11:10 PM
What do you think you would gain in the case of independence ?

You want me to start writing a list of things?

But all of them can be basically reduced to two things: independence and normality. A stateless nation is like a person living in his brother's house. You may love your brother, but you're not your brother and it's not your house.


Taking into account the historical analphabetism (if not manipulation) of average Aragonese that's not relevant at all. I'm not preciselly a fan of Catalonian nationalism, but Aragon sharing state with Castille instead of Catalonia or "Navarre" it's plain bizarre: so, facing that historical dilema, I would prefer to maintain the current status quo.

This is all conjectures, of course, but Aragon would probably be in a much better situation if it had continued with Catalonia and the former Crown was an independent state. It'd likely be the richest country in southern Europe, so even if Aragon would be the hinterland of the country, it'd be a rich hinterland. And it's quite possible that it wouldn't be reduced to one single city, Zaragón. Uesca and Teruel would probably be middle cities, and maybe Monzon and Caspe too. Aragon would have an even faster connection to the Mediterranean sea, which is its natural tendency. From a pragmatical point of view, Aragon would be better, and not ignored or ridiculized as it is often by Spaniards. After all, Aragon has been with Catalonia much longer than with Castile.

But from an ethnic point of view, I'm going to be frank: Catalans would have also erased the Aragonese ethnicity, the way Castilians have. Saragossa would speak Catalan or an Aragonese heavily influenced by Catalan (a sort of Benasquese).

Falkata
12-19-2010, 11:17 PM
And simply putting up transportation networks in the economic heartlands without linking them properly to the political centres doesn't really work.



Besides Catalonia is pretty well linked to the outside world is it ? Besides.. I think that it would be sensible for Spain and France to link their countries over the Zaragoza line and via Barcelona.[/FONT]

Madrid is not only the political centre but also the financial one. Most of the banks and audit/consulting companies are located there.
Santander headquarters (pharaonic financial complex) are in Madrid for example

http://www.producciona.com/CIUDADSANTANDER3_ENG.htm

My company is moving next summer to these new towers

http://static.flickr.com/78/217972537_07d34e39e4_o.jpg
http://blogs.periodistadigital.com/imgs/20071216/torres_realmadrid_sacyr.jpg

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 11:23 PM
Madrid has only become the financial center of Spain in the last decades. We all know why.

Falkata
12-19-2010, 11:27 PM
Madrid has only become the financial center of Spain in the last decades. We all know why.

Political decissions always have a play but for both sides. For example SEAT ( a national company created by Evil Franco) was located in Martorell but we don´t heard complains about it though . It could be located in Extremadura or Asturias but it wasn´t.
Anyway multinationals are the ones that chose to come to Madrid instead of Catalonia in the last years and sadly your politicians are playing an important role. CIU was way more intelligent than ERC and PSC idiots. I think you´ll do it better with them now.

Vasconcelos
12-19-2010, 11:31 PM
As usual, you have the proof in Portugal. I'm pretty sure that the Portuguese wouldn't want to join as a Spanish region even if that increased a little their purchase power. They're not stupid.


Personally, not in 1000 years (with all due respect, ofc) :)

Comte Arnau
12-19-2010, 11:39 PM
Political decissions always have a play but for both sides. For example SEAT ( a national company created by Evil Franco) was located in Martorell but we don´t heard complains about it though . It could be located in Extremadura or Asturias but it wasn´t.
Anyway multinationals are the ones that chose to come to Madrid instead of Catalonia in the last years and sadly your politicians are playing an important role. CIU was way more intelligent than ERC and PSC idiots. I think you´ll do it better with them now.

Multinationals don't change their mind out of a sudden. There are always reasons behind it. I'm not saying everything had been done well here either, you're right in that most politicians are a bunch of idiots. However the language matter is not the real thing, that's just a small obstacle, otherwise it would be an obstacle too in European countries like Denmark, Slovakia and so on.

About SEAT, what can I say? With such comments by SEAT's President as 'We have no Catalan towns in SEAT models because we are Spanish' or 'We are in Martorell because we can't move the factory to Madrid', well, enough said.

Falkata
12-19-2010, 11:48 PM
Multinationals don't change their mind out of a sudden. There are always reasons behind it. I'm not saying everything had been done well here either, you're right in that most politicians are a bunch of idiots. However the language matter is not the real thing, that's just a small obstacle, otherwise it would be an obstacle too in European countries like Denmark, Slovakia and so on.

About SEAT, what can I say? With such comments by SEAT's President as 'We have no Catalan towns in SEAT models because we are Spanish' or 'We are in Martorell because we can't move the factory to Madrid', well, enough said.

SEAT president is a moron and his comments were anything but intelligent. Even when you believe that kind of things you should shut up at least for economic reasons. But it doesn´t change the fact that SEAT was located there by Franco when it could be located in any other place.
And about the language, well in Denmark people speak english but sadly it´s as we all know it´s not the same in Spain (including Catalonia). It´s just another barrier (not a huge one, but a barrier after all), specially considering how fast spanish language is growing around the world . I´ve met in the last years many european and american students who were studying spanish in their universities. This is a new phenomenon.

Falkata
12-19-2010, 11:57 PM
Personally, not in 1000 years (with all due respect, ofc) :)

It wouldnt be a good business for Spain neither. If somebody wants this union is for romantic reasons but economically i think it would be a disaster for us. Something like West Germany absorbing the Eastern part (the differences aren´t that big but you get the point)

antonio
12-21-2010, 03:57 PM
This is all conjectures, of course, but Aragon would probably be in a much better situation if it had continued with Catalonia and the former Crown was an independent state. It'd likely be the richest country in southern Europe, so even if Aragon would be the hinterland of the country, it'd be a rich hinterland. And it's quite possible that it wouldn't be reduced to one single city, Zaragón. Uesca and Teruel would probably be middle cities, and maybe Monzon and Caspe too. Aragon would have an even faster connection to the Mediterranean sea, which is its natural tendency. From a pragmatical point of view, Aragon would be better, and not ignored or ridiculized as it is often by Spaniards. After all, Aragon has been with Catalonia much longer than with Castile.

But from an ethnic point of view, I'm going to be frank: Catalans would have also erased the Aragonese ethnicity, the way Castilians have. Saragossa would speak Catalan or an Aragonese heavily influenced by Catalan (a sort of Benasquese).

I also though on that possibility, and I basically agree with your post but the last paragraph: you miss that Catalonian nationalism (or simply self-awareness) erased (or at least distorted) old comarcal realities by artificious assumption of all-nation symbols and rites (obviously I'm talking about XIX and XXth not before). But maybe that imputation would be worth a thread apart.

Pd. As long as Catalonian is full of Human Science thinkers, I guess it was already studied and analized.