Genetics of Peloponnesians.

[Lavrentis]

According to the study below, Peloponnesians are close to southern European populations, which proves that there is genetic continuity to the Peloponnese since the Antiquity, and that the natives of the region were never replaced:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/full/ejhg201718a.html

The tables regarding the closest populations of the Peloponnesians:

Table 2. Shared ancestry between Peloponnesean populations and Slavic, Italian and other European populations

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/fig_tab/ejhg201718t2.html#figure-title

Table 3. Shared ancestry between the populations of Mani and Tsakonia and Slavic, Italian and other European populations

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/fig_tab/ejhg201718t3.html#figure-title

[wvwvw]

Not surprising. Genetic studies show that neither Albania (which has tons of slavic toponyms) nor Greece was affected by the brief Slavic conquests.

Whenever someone conquered a place he'd also change the toponyms, but the local populations stayed put. There were no tranfers of populations, which is evidenced by the fact that neither Albanians nor Greeks score Slavic.

[Sikeliot]

Peloponnese might not have significant Slavic input, but they're still not Sicilians AND the north of Greece definitely does have Slavic.

[Fustan]

No mention of Albanians in this report.. Interesting..

[Sikeliot]

No mention of Albanians in this report.. Interesting..

Because if Albanians were included, they would have been revealed to be the closest population to those Greeks, closer than the Italians were.

[wvwvw]

Peloponnese might not have significant Slavic input, but they're still not Sicilians AND the north of Greece definitely does have Slavic.

Who said anything about Greeks being Sicilians. They split 2000 years ago. For the past 2000 years Sicilians have been intermixing with other Italians and other non-Greeks.

[Lavrentis]

No mention of Albanians in this report.. Interesting..

I'd expect genetic similarities of the Peloponnesian Arvanites with Albanians, but not with all of the area. Arvanites settled mostly in two regions, Corinth and Argolis


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[Sikeliot]

Who said anything about Greeks being Sicilians. They split 2000 years ago. For the past 2000 years Sicilians have been intermixing with other Italians and other non-Greeks.

Some Greek users on this forum latch onto southern Italians to distance themselves from other Balkan people and to seem more southern/Mediterranean/exotic or whatever. It is a way of denying their closest kin are Albania.

[wvwvw]

Because if Albanians were included, they would have been revealed to be the closest population to those Greeks, closer than the Italians were.

Because the Greeks of Northern Epirus and the rest of Greeks did not split 2000 years ago like with Sicilians. It is only recently it became part of Albania. Both Albania and Greece were part of Rumelia.

[Lavrentis]

It is a way of denying their closest kin are Albania.

From various autosomal results of Greeks I saw on here, we cluster closer with south Italians


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[Fustan]

I'd expect genetic similarities of the Peloponnesian Arvanites with Albanians, but not with all of the area. Arvanites settled mostly in two regions, Corinth and Argolis


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According to this map, they were spread all around the edges of Peloponesos.

https://imgur.com/ziJlsC2.jpg

[Sikeliot]

From various autosomal results of Greeks I saw on here, we cluster closer with south Italians

Cretans do, but not mainlanders. Not even Peloponnesians do.

If you want me to post a bunch of results of Peloponnesians I can, you will see. You need to run them on calculators that have Albanian populations as choices..

[wvwvw]

Some Greek users on this forum latch onto southern Italians to distance themselves from other Balkan people and to seem more southern/Mediterranean/exotic or whatever. It is a way of denying their closest kin are Albania.

That's a moot point since Albanians and to a less degree other south slavs, are also related to Italians.

I am not denying Albania is genetically closer to mainland Greeks, what I am denying is that Greeks are phenotypically closer to Albanians than to Southern Italians. Greeks have their own look which occassionaly can overlap with S.Italian, Albanian, Bulgarian or Cypriot.

[Lavrentis]

According to this map, they were spread all around the edges of Peloponesos.

https://imgur.com/ziJlsC2.jpg

They did, but not to the extent that the map gives it.

Here are some other maps:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/9a99425fae72b4a39be6ab06ab2b37a1.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/a12795d37db057492119e265580fb8f2.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/cac71d612ad4072ee11736aec19e3290.jpg



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[Ujku]

Not surprising. Genetic studies show that neither Albania (which has tons of slavic toponyms) nor Greece was affected by the brief Slavic conquests.

Whenever someone conquered a place he'd also change the toponyms, but the local populations stayed put. There were no tranfers of populations, which is evidenced by the fact that neither Albanians nor Greeks score Slavic.

Greece had also tons of slavic toponyms but your German king changed them in the mid-late 1800s.

[Lavrentis]

Cretans do, but not mainlanders. Not even Peloponnesians do.

If you want me to post a bunch of results of Peloponnesians I can, you will see. You need to run them on calculators that have Albanian populations as choices..

I'm sure that a good number of Peloponnesians will cluster with Albanians, but I don't think that all of them do.


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[Lavrentis]

Greece had also tons of slavic toponyms but your German king changed them in the mid-late 1800s.

These toponyms were mostly in northern Greece and in places that had significant Bulgarian populations or where a part of Bulgaria for centuries after they captured them from the Byzantines. Later, these Bulgarian populations were settled to Bulgaria through a population exchange. Greece received Greeks from Bulgaria, Bulgarian received Bulgarians from Greece. Something like that


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[Sikeliot]

From various autosomal results of Greeks I saw on here, we cluster closer with south Italians


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Here is the newest GEDmatch calculator PuntDNA-L K13. Albanian is closer than Sicilian for nearly ALL of them. And if we went to North Greece, then we'd see the Sicilians would drop even further below Bulgarian.

Face it. Mainland Greeks are just not close to southern Italians, there is no special relationship there. They are just another population in their top 20.


Arcadia:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.47
2 Albanian 3.72
3 Kosovar 4.34
4 Greek_Central 5.2
5 Italian_Tuscan 6.5
6 Italian_Abruzzo 6.74
7 Bulgarian 8.08
8 Macedonian 8.47
9 Ashkenazy_Jew 9.91
10 Romanian 10.16
11 Montenegrin 10.81
12 Italian_Sicilian 11.34
13 Italian_Bergamo 12.34
14 Serbian 13.43
15 Sephardic_Jew 14.5
16 Bosnian 17.07
17 Spaniard 18
18 Moldavian 19.07
19 Croatian 19.08
20 Turkish 19.52


Arcadia:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 34.31
2 NE_Europe 24.82
3 West_Asia 23.32
4 SW_Asia 14.1
5 SE_Asia 1.63
6 NE_Asia 1.06
7 Americas 0.33
8 Oceania 0.27
9 East_Africa 0.16
10 Siberia 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 4.22
2 Greek_Thessaly 5.79
3 Albanian 6.23
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.82
5 Kosovar 6.93
6 Ashkenazy_Jew 8.48
7 Italian_Tuscan 9.02
8 Italian_Sicilian 10.12
9 Bulgarian 10.38
10 Macedonian 10.9
11 Romanian 11.92
12 Sephardic_Jew 12.77
13 Montenegrin 12.91
14 Italian_Bergamo 15.03
15 Serbian 15.6
16 Turkish 17.06
17 Turkish_Aydin 17.82
18 Bosnian 19.06
19 Turkish_Kayseri 20.03
20 Spaniard 20.59



Messinia:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 38.37
2 NE_Europe 24.03
3 West_Asia 21.49
4 SW_Asia 12.37
5 NE_Asia 1.39
6 Oceania 1.05
7 Siberia 0.88
8 Americas 0.38
9 South_Asia 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.74
2 Albanian 4.01
3 Italian_Abruzzo 4.42
4 Greek_Central 4.79
5 Kosovar 5.29
6 Italian_Tuscan 5.72
7 Ashkenazy_Jew 8.32
8 Italian_Sicilian 9.38
9 Bulgarian 10.01
10 Macedonian 10.18
11 Italian_Bergamo 11.71
12 Romanian 12.58
13 Sephardic_Jew 12.97
14 Montenegrin 13.01
15 Serbian 15.47
16 Spaniard 17.58
17 Bosnian 19.25
18 Turkish 19.43
19 Turkish_Aydin 20.33
20 Croatian 20.98


Messinia:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 36.66
2 NE_Europe 25.45
3 West_Asia 20.38
4 SW_Asia 13.78
5 NE_Asia 1.15
6 Americas 0.7
7 Siberia 0.66
8 Oceania 0.62
9 South_Africa 0.34
10 SE_Asia 0.25
11 South_Asia 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 4.11
2 Greek_Thessaly 4.2
3 Kosovar 5.22
4 Greek_Central 5.72
5 Italian_Abruzzo 5.93
6 Italian_Tuscan 6.12
7 Bulgarian 9.02
8 Macedonian 9.14
9 Ashkenazy_Jew 9.36
10 Italian_Sicilian 10.6
11 Romanian 11.12
12 Montenegrin 11.76
13 Italian_Bergamo 11.95
14 Sephardic_Jew 13.56
15 Serbian 14.27
16 Spaniard 17.32
17 Bosnian 17.86
18 Croatian 19.71
19 Moldavian 19.85
20 Turkish 19.9



Laconia:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 38.28
2 NE_Europe 23.68
3 West_Asia 23.16
4 SW_Asia 11.78
5 Oceania 1.24
6 SE_Asia 0.8
7 Siberia 0.54
8 South_Asia 0.32
9 South_Africa 0.21
10 NE_Asia 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 3.59
2 Greek_Thessaly 3.8
3 Italian_Abruzzo 4.26
4 Albanian 4.46
5 Kosovar 5.54
6 Italian_Tuscan 6.55
7 Ashkenazy_Jew 7.7
8 Italian_Sicilian 8.91
9 Bulgarian 10.4
10 Macedonian 10.78
11 Italian_Bergamo 12.58
12 Sephardic_Jew 12.71
13 Romanian 12.98
14 Montenegrin 13.48
15 Serbian 15.99
16 Turkish 18.55
17 Spaniard 18.7
18 Turkish_Aydin 19.72
19 Bosnian 19.82
20 Cypriot 20.67



Arcadia:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 39
2 NE_Europe 24.48
3 West_Asia 22.66
4 SW_Asia 10.59
5 Americas 1.45
6 South_Africa 0.7
7 West_Africa 0.53
8 SE_Asia 0.33
9 East_Africa 0.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.1
2 Albanian 3.75
3 Kosovar 4.7
4 Greek_Central 4.93
5 Italian_Abruzzo 5.17
6 Italian_Tuscan 5.54
7 Ashkenazy_Jew 9.06
8 Bulgarian 9.65
9 Macedonian 9.92
10 Italian_Sicilian 10.06
11 Italian_Bergamo 11.35
12 Romanian 12.48
13 Montenegrin 12.71
14 Sephardic_Jew 14.1
15 Serbian 15.14
16 Spaniard 17.58
17 Bosnian 19.01
18 Turkish 19.9
19 Croatian 20.71
20 Turkish_Aydin 20.99


Arcadia:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 37.3
2 NE_Europe 24.04
3 West_Asia 20.72
4 SW_Asia 12.17
5 Siberia 1.26
6 South_Asia 1.2
7 Oceania 0.84
8 South_Africa 0.77
9 SE_Asia 0.71
10 NE_Asia 0.52
11 East_Africa 0.47

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 3.97
2 Albanian 4.02
3 Greek_Central 5.25
4 Italian_Abruzzo 5.34
5 Kosovar 5.46
6 Italian_Tuscan 6.1
7 Ashkenazy_Jew 8.76
8 Bulgarian 9.53
9 Italian_Sicilian 9.82
10 Macedonian 9.87
11 Romanian 11.88
12 Italian_Bergamo 11.94
13 Montenegrin 12.7
14 Sephardic_Jew 13.34
15 Serbian 15.02
16 Spaniard 17.62
17 Bosnian 18.85
18 Turkish 19.32
19 Turkish_Aydin 20.01
20 Croatian 20.61


Corinth:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 35.13
2 NE_Europe 24.13
3 West_Asia 23.42
4 SW_Asia 13.15
5 SE_Asia 2
6 NE_Asia 0.85
7 South_Africa 0.84
8 South_Asia 0.34
9 Americas 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 3.66
2 Greek_Thessaly 5.34
3 Albanian 5.88
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.2
5 Kosovar 6.69
6 Ashkenazy_Jew 8.03
7 Italian_Tuscan 8.6
8 Italian_Sicilian 9.62
9 Bulgarian 10.47
10 Macedonian 11.04
11 Romanian 12.28
12 Sephardic_Jew 12.64
13 Montenegrin 13.23
14 Italian_Bergamo 14.62
15 Serbian 15.84
16 Turkish 17.03
17 Turkish_Aydin 17.93
18 Bosnian 19.46
19 Turkish_Kayseri 19.99
20 Spaniard 20.37


Laconia:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 33.78
2 NE_Europe 24.62
3 West_Asia 22.42
4 SW_Asia 14.68
5 East_Africa 1.52
6 Siberia 0.87
7 SE_Asia 0.81
8 Oceania 0.58
9 Americas 0.31
10 NE_Asia 0.24
11 South_Asia 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 4.97
2 Greek_Thessaly 6.29
3 Albanian 6.54
4 Italian_Abruzzo 7.12
5 Kosovar 7.39
6 Ashkenazy_Jew 8.68
7 Italian_Tuscan 9.28
8 Italian_Sicilian 10.1
9 Bulgarian 10.62
10 Macedonian 11.04
11 Romanian 11.98
12 Sephardic_Jew 12.65
13 Montenegrin 13.1
14 Italian_Bergamo 15.26
15 Serbian 15.75
16 Turkish 17.19
17 Turkish_Aydin 17.76
18 Bosnian 19.13
19 Turkish_Kayseri 20.18
20 Spaniard 20.6



ONLY ONE Laconian is closer to Sicilians:
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 36.32
2 West_Asia 25.29
3 NE_Europe 21.33
4 SW_Asia 13.71
5 Oceania 1.45
6 Americas 1.15
7 South_Asia 0.71
8 South_Africa 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Central 2.7
2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.03
3 Ashkenazy_Jew 5.35
4 Italian_Sicilian 6.88
5 Greek_Thessaly 7.18
6 Albanian 7.94
7 Kosovar 8.91
8 Sephardic_Jew 10.05
9 Italian_Tuscan 10.25
10 Bulgarian 13.3
11 Macedonian 13.9
12 Turkish 15.09
13 Romanian 15.31
14 Montenegrin 16.24
15 Italian_Bergamo 16.4
16 Turkish_Aydin 16.88
17 Cypriot 17.34
18 Turkish_Kayseri 17.79
19 Serbian 18.92
20 Balkar 19.74

[Sikeliot]

That's a moot point since Albanians and to a less degree other south slavs, are also related to Italians.

I am not denying Albania is genetically closer to mainland Greeks, what I am denying is that Greeks are phenotypically closer to Albanians than to Southern Italians. Greeks have their own look which occassionaly can overlap with S.Italian, Albanian, Bulgarian or Cypriot.


I don't think Greeks look closer to Albanians overall, nor do I think the mainlanders look overall like Sicilians. But genetically, they are closest to Albanians whether people like it or not.

[Lavrentis]

Here is the newest GEDmatch calculator PuntDNA-L K13. Albanian is closer than Sicilian for nearly ALL of them. And if we went to North Greece, then we'd see the Sicilians would drop even further below Bulgarian.

Face it. Mainland Greeks are just not close to southern Italians, there is no special relationship there. They are just another population in their top 20.


Arcadia:
#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Thessaly3.47
2Albanian3.72
3Kosovar4.34
4Greek_Central5.2
5Italian_Tuscan6.5
6Italian_Abruzzo6.74
7Bulgarian8.08
8Macedonian8.47
9Ashkenazy_Jew9.91
10Romanian10.16
11Montenegrin10.81
12Italian_Sicilian11.34
13Italian_Bergamo12.34
14Serbian13.43
15Sephardic_Jew14.5
16Bosnian17.07
17Spaniard18
18Moldavian19.07
19Croatian19.08
20Turkish19.52


Arcadia:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe34.31
2NE_Europe24.82
3West_Asia23.32
4SW_Asia14.1
5SE_Asia1.63
6NE_Asia1.06
7Americas0.33
8Oceania0.27
9East_Africa0.16
10Siberia0.01

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Central4.22
2Greek_Thessaly5.79
3Albanian6.23
4Italian_Abruzzo6.82
5Kosovar6.93
6Ashkenazy_Jew8.48
7Italian_Tuscan9.02
8Italian_Sicilian10.12
9Bulgarian10.38
10Macedonian10.9
11Romanian11.92
12Sephardic_Jew12.77
13Montenegrin12.91
14Italian_Bergamo15.03
15Serbian15.6
16Turkish17.06
17Turkish_Aydin17.82
18Bosnian19.06
19Turkish_Kayseri20.03
20Spaniard20.59



Messinia:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe38.37
2NE_Europe24.03
3West_Asia21.49
4SW_Asia12.37
5NE_Asia1.39
6Oceania1.05
7Siberia0.88
8Americas0.38
9South_Asia0.04

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Thessaly3.74
2Albanian4.01
3Italian_Abruzzo4.42
4Greek_Central4.79
5Kosovar5.29
6Italian_Tuscan5.72
7Ashkenazy_Jew8.32
8Italian_Sicilian9.38
9Bulgarian10.01
10Macedonian10.18
11Italian_Bergamo11.71
12Romanian12.58
13Sephardic_Jew12.97
14Montenegrin13.01
15Serbian15.47
16Spaniard17.58
17Bosnian19.25
18Turkish19.43
19Turkish_Aydin20.33
20Croatian20.98


Messinia:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe36.66
2NE_Europe25.45
3West_Asia20.38
4SW_Asia13.78
5NE_Asia1.15
6Americas0.7
7Siberia0.66
8Oceania0.62
9South_Africa0.34
10SE_Asia0.25
11South_Asia0.02

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Albanian4.11
2Greek_Thessaly4.2
3Kosovar5.22
4Greek_Central5.72
5Italian_Abruzzo5.93
6Italian_Tuscan6.12
7Bulgarian9.02
8Macedonian9.14
9Ashkenazy_Jew9.36
10Italian_Sicilian10.6
11Romanian11.12
12Montenegrin11.76
13Italian_Bergamo11.95
14Sephardic_Jew13.56
15Serbian14.27
16Spaniard17.32
17Bosnian17.86
18Croatian19.71
19Moldavian19.85
20Turkish19.9



Laconia:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe38.28
2NE_Europe23.68
3West_Asia23.16
4SW_Asia11.78
5Oceania1.24
6SE_Asia0.8
7Siberia0.54
8South_Asia0.32
9South_Africa0.21
10NE_Asia0.01

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Central3.59
2Greek_Thessaly3.8
3Italian_Abruzzo4.26
4Albanian4.46
5Kosovar5.54
6Italian_Tuscan6.55
7Ashkenazy_Jew7.7
8Italian_Sicilian8.91
9Bulgarian10.4
10Macedonian10.78
11Italian_Bergamo12.58
12Sephardic_Jew12.71
13Romanian12.98
14Montenegrin13.48
15Serbian15.99
16Turkish18.55
17Spaniard18.7
18Turkish_Aydin19.72
19Bosnian19.82
20Cypriot20.67



Arcadia:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe39
2NE_Europe24.48
3West_Asia22.66
4SW_Asia10.59
5Americas1.45
6South_Africa0.7
7West_Africa0.53
8SE_Asia0.33
9East_Africa0.25

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Thessaly3.1
2Albanian3.75
3Kosovar4.7
4Greek_Central4.93
5Italian_Abruzzo5.17
6Italian_Tuscan5.54
7Ashkenazy_Jew9.06
8Bulgarian9.65
9Macedonian9.92
10Italian_Sicilian10.06
11Italian_Bergamo11.35
12Romanian12.48
13Montenegrin12.71
14Sephardic_Jew14.1
15Serbian15.14
16Spaniard17.58
17Bosnian19.01
18Turkish19.9
19Croatian20.71
20Turkish_Aydin20.99


Arcadia:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe37.3
2NE_Europe24.04
3West_Asia20.72
4SW_Asia12.17
5Siberia1.26
6South_Asia1.2
7Oceania0.84
8South_Africa0.77
9SE_Asia0.71
10NE_Asia0.52
11East_Africa0.47

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Thessaly3.97
2Albanian4.02
3Greek_Central5.25
4Italian_Abruzzo5.34
5Kosovar5.46
6Italian_Tuscan6.1
7Ashkenazy_Jew8.76
8Bulgarian9.53
9Italian_Sicilian9.82
10Macedonian9.87
11Romanian11.88
12Italian_Bergamo11.94
13Montenegrin12.7
14Sephardic_Jew13.34
15Serbian15.02
16Spaniard17.62
17Bosnian18.85
18Turkish19.32
19Turkish_Aydin20.01
20Croatian20.61


Corinth:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe35.13
2NE_Europe24.13
3West_Asia23.42
4SW_Asia13.15
5SE_Asia2
6NE_Asia0.85
7South_Africa0.84
8South_Asia0.34
9Americas0.15

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Central3.66
2Greek_Thessaly5.34
3Albanian5.88
4Italian_Abruzzo6.2
5Kosovar6.69
6Ashkenazy_Jew8.03
7Italian_Tuscan8.6
8Italian_Sicilian9.62
9Bulgarian10.47
10Macedonian11.04
11Romanian12.28
12Sephardic_Jew12.64
13Montenegrin13.23
14Italian_Bergamo14.62
15Serbian15.84
16Turkish17.03
17Turkish_Aydin17.93
18Bosnian19.46
19Turkish_Kayseri19.99
20Spaniard20.37


Laconia:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe33.78
2NE_Europe24.62
3West_Asia22.42
4SW_Asia14.68
5East_Africa1.52
6Siberia0.87
7SE_Asia0.81
8Oceania0.58
9Americas0.31
10NE_Asia0.24
11South_Asia0.17

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Central4.97
2Greek_Thessaly6.29
3Albanian6.54
4Italian_Abruzzo7.12
5Kosovar7.39
6Ashkenazy_Jew8.68
7Italian_Tuscan9.28
8Italian_Sicilian10.1
9Bulgarian10.62
10Macedonian11.04
11Romanian11.98
12Sephardic_Jew12.65
13Montenegrin13.1
14Italian_Bergamo15.26
15Serbian15.75
16Turkish17.19
17Turkish_Aydin17.76
18Bosnian19.13
19Turkish_Kayseri20.18
20Spaniard20.6



ONLY ONE Laconian is closer to Sicilians:
#PopulationPercent
1SW_Europe36.32
2West_Asia25.29
3NE_Europe21.33
4SW_Asia13.71
5Oceania1.45
6Americas1.15
7South_Asia0.71
8South_Africa0.04

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Central2.7
2Italian_Abruzzo5.03
3Ashkenazy_Jew5.35
4Italian_Sicilian6.88
5Greek_Thessaly7.18
6Albanian7.94
7Kosovar8.91
8Sephardic_Jew10.05
9Italian_Tuscan10.25
10Bulgarian13.3
11Macedonian13.9
12Turkish15.09
13Romanian15.31
14Montenegrin16.24
15Italian_Bergamo16.4
16Turkish_Aydin16.88
17Cypriot17.34
18Turkish_Kayseri17.79
19Serbian18.92
20Balkar19.74

Okay, but you have posted other results of mainland Greeks being closer to south Italians (Abruzzese), I remember that


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[wvwvw]

I don't think Greeks look closer to Albanians overall, nor do I think the mainlanders look overall like Sicilians. But genetically, they are closest to Albanians whether people like it or not.

I don't really care whether S.Italians or Albanians are more genetically close to us. Why should I? In both regions there were Greeks since antiquity. Albanians are related to both Italians and Greeks.

[wvwvw]

Face it. Mainland Greeks are just not close to southern Italians, there is no special relationship there. They are just another population in their top 20.

But both are the closest populations to Ancient Greeks so there is very much a relationship, so don't be absolute. Gedmatch is not a gospel.

[Sikeliot]

Okay, but you have posted other results of mainland Greeks being closer to south Italians (Abruzzese), I remember that


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It was closer to Abruzzese than to Bulgaria, even if Bulgaria came before Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

But both are the closest populations to Ancient Greeks so there is very much a relationship, so don't be absolute. Gedmatch is not a gospel.

Modern mainland Greeks are 30% Northeast European compared to the Mycenaeans, and southern Italians have more MENA input compared to them. If they are the "closest" it is because everyone else is even further away.

[Sikeliot]

But both are the closest populations to Ancient Greeks so there is very much a relationship, so don't be absolute. Gedmatch is not a gospel.

Modern mainland Greeks are 30% Northeast European compared to the Mycenaeans, and southern Italians have more MENA input compared to them. If they are the "closest" it is because everyone else is even further away.

[wvwvw]

Modern mainland Greeks are 30% Northeast European compared to the Mycenaeans, and southern Italians have more MENA input compared to them. If they are the "closest" it is because everyone else is even further away.

The Armenoi sample which might have been a Dorian sample, had that amount of NE European.

[Kouros]

The Armenoi sample which might have been a Dorian sample, had that amount of NE European.

It was a low quality sample apparently. In one GEDmatch calculator it came up as southern French and another as Greek though.

[wvwvw]

You are splitting hairs because both Greeks and Albanians are genetically close to Italians.

Greeks are mostly closer to S.Italians and Albanians to Central Italians.

Greeks can be close to Thraco-Bulgarians which makes sense since it is Greece that neighbours Thrace and Bulgaria, not Albania nor Italy.

We are all distinct but still genetically related.

[Sikeliot]

You are splitting hairs because both Greeks and Albanians are genetically close to Italians.

Greeks are mostly closer to S.Italians and Albanians to Central Italians.

Greeks can be close to Thraco-Bulgarians which makes sense since it is Greece that neighbours Thrace and Bulgaria, not Albania nor Italy.

We are all distinct but still genetically related.


Mainland Greeks do not plot any closer to southern Italians than Albanians do though. And both are closer to everything from Tuscany to Abruzzo, than to Sicily or Calabria.

[KingOf]

How genetics impact phenotype?

[Voskos]

Y-DNA in Peloponnisos(from Heraclides et al 2017,179 samples):

30.2 E-M78
1.1 E-M123
0.6 G*
0.6 F*
3.4 G2
1.1 I1
17.3 I2
1.7 J1
12.3 J2a
3.4 J2b
1.7 K*
1.1 N
11.2 R1a
13.4 R1b
1.1 T

[Sikeliot]

Y-DNA in Peloponnisos(from Heraclides et al 2017,179 samples):

30.2 E-M78
1.1 E-M123
0.6 G*
0.6 F*
3.4 G2
1.1 I1
17.3 I2
1.7 J1
12.3 J2a
3.4 J2b
1.7 K*
1.1 N
11.2 R1a
13.4 R1b
1.1 T



The difference to Sicily or Crete is that R1a, E-M78 and I2 are much higher, while J2 and R1b are lower.

[wvwvw]

Mainland Greeks do not plot any closer to southern Italians than Albanians do though. And both are closer to everything from Tuscany to Abruzzo, than to Sicily or Calabria.

Nope I don't plot with Southern Italians, at least not with Sicilians and Calabrians. Nor with Cretans, or Aegean islanders.

I plot on more Northern latidutes as CiGa would say, on par with Central Italians but, east of them, and close to other Greeks from the mainland and Albanians.

Here's how I plot on pca

https://image.ibb.co/dg90qG/wwww.png

kleenex:

https://image.ibb.co/bCC1fG/kleenex.png

[wvwvw]

Nope I don't plot with Southern Italians, at least not with Sicilians and Calabrians. Nor with Cretans, or Aegean islanders.

I plot on more Northern latidutes as CiGa would say, on par with Central Italians but, east of them, and close to other Greeks from the mainland and Albanians.

Here's how I plot on pca

https://image.ibb.co/dg90qG/wwww.png

kleenex:

https://image.ibb.co/bCC1fG/kleenex.png

[Sikeliot]

Nope I don't plot with Southern Italians, at least not with Sicilians and Calabrians. Nor with Cretans, or Aegean islanders.

I plot on more Northern latidutes as CiGa would say, on par with Central Italians but, east of them, and close to other Greeks from the mainland and Albanians.



You are both clearly shifted north/east. I have yet to see a mainlander actually plotting INSIDE the Aegean islands/Sicily/South Italy cluster. I won't discount the possibility one out there exists, but I have not seen it yet.

[Voskos]

The difference to Sicily or Crete is that R1a, E-M78 and I2 are much higher, while J2 and R1b are lower.

Well as you said Peloponnese has slightly higher Slavic but lesser Near Eastern than Crete. So overall it evens out.

[Sikeliot]

Well as you said Peloponnese has slightly higher Slavic but lesser Near Eastern than Crete. So overall it evens out.

Yes. Laconians might be similar to extreme western Crete though. But not to southern Crete, Sicily etc.

[Voskos]

Y-DNA plot from the same paper, where you can see Peloponnisos is halfway in-between Sicily and Albania:

https://snag.gy/iPBrK0.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Y-DNA plot from the same paper, where you can see Peloponnisos is halfway in-between Sicily and Albania:

https://snag.gy/iPBrK0.jpg

There also appears to be some Greek islands on the plot who are halfway between the Peloponnesians and the Sicilians.

[wvwvw]

The difference to Sicily or Crete is that R1a, E-M78 and I2 are much higher, while J2 and R1b are lower.

My father has the R1b, the North Sea variant which is not only rare in Greece but also in the Balkans. I wonder what kleenex's and Sorcelaw ydna's are.

[Sikeliot]

My father has the R1b, the North Sea variant which is not only rare in Greece but also in the Balkans. I wonder what kleenex's and Sorcelaw ydna's are.

Could your father's paternal line be Venetian or Frankish possibly?

[wvwvw]

Could your father's paternal line be Venetian or Frankish possibly?

It's not the Venetian variant, as ludicrous as it may sound it is a proto-Germanic ydna. But it may have come with Franks, it is possible. It can also be much older.

[Sikeliot]

It's not the Venetian variant, as ludicrous as it may sound it is proto-Germanic ydna.

Then it could be Frankish.

[wvwvw]

Then it could be Frankish.

The Normans and the Franks did not even colonise Greece they enslaved the people in a feudal system and then left.

[Coolguy1]

My father has the R1b, the North Sea variant which is not only rare in Greece but also in the Balkans. I wonder what kleenex's and Sorcelaw ydna's are.

Im j2a-M319, which has been found in 2 of the three Minoans