How much of English ancestry is from Germanic invaders vs Irish like people?

[Sikeliot]

Obviously this question ignores that there is in fact Germanic input in parts of Ireland and that pre-Germanic Britons may not have been exactly like Irish. But you get my point.

How much of English ancestry is pre-Germanic and how much is from Angles, Saxons, etc? What is a realistic estimate?

[Fantomas]

Obviously this question ignores that there is in fact Germanic input in parts of Ireland and that pre-Germanic Britons may not have been exactly like Irish. But you get my point.

How much of English ancestry is pre-Germanic and how much is from Angles, Saxons, etc? What is a realistic estimate?
Bearing in mind that ancient Germans come from northern Europe their ancestry in England is considerably low

https://i.imgur.com/KcQLKSb.jpg

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html?foxtrotcallback=true

[Tooting Carmen]

30-40% Germanic, the rest mostly Celtic.

[TEUTORIGOS]

Like 35-40% Anglo-Saxon, on average, not counting Norse admixture. 'British' is synonymous with Anglo-Saxon, here. According to AncestryDNA I am 52% Irish, 37% British (Anglo-Saxon) and 6 % Scandinavian.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg

[Fantomas]

Like 35-40% Anglo-Saxon, on average, not counting Norse admixture. 'British' is synonymous with Anglo-Saxon, here. According to AncestryDNA I am 52% Irish, 37% British (Anglo-Saxon) and 6 % Scandinavian.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg
Where's the Norse admixture on this map?

[TEUTORIGOS]

Where's the Norse admixture on this map?

It would be included under 'other'. Average British person is 9.20 % Norse. Average British person is 37% British or Anglo-Saxon. European West is composed of French and German.

[Fantomas]

It would be included under 'other'. Average British person is 9.20 % Norse. Average British person is 37% British or Anglo-Saxon. European West is composed of French and German.
Is it from here, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html ?

So "Anglo-Saxon" is not Germanic and not Norse, is it exclusively British?

[TEUTORIGOS]

Is it from here, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html ?

So "Anglo-Saxon" is not Germanic and not Norse, is it exclusively British?

No, Anglo-Saxon aka 'British' is a North Germanic type found mostly in England but in like 5% of Germans. I dunno why they call it 'British' instead of Ancient Britons being 'British' probably because no 100% pure ancient Briton population exists or it doesn't exist in any significant amount so the 'Irish' or Celtic category would be closest to Ancient British I would guess.

This is what an Anglo-Saxon person looks like :

http://i.imgur.com/iKiYjKy.png

[Fantomas]

No, Anglo-Saxon aka 'British' is a North Germanic type found mostly in England but in like 5% of Germans. I dunno why they call it 'British' instead of Ancient Britons being 'British' probably because no 100% pure ancient Briton population exists or it doesn't exist in any significant amount so the 'Irish' or Celtic category would be closest to Ancient British I would guess.
There's no additional data there, just British not Continental. Is that the same source or do you use another one?

[TEUTORIGOS]

There's no additional data there, just British not Continental. Is that the same source or do you use another one?

They used the AncestryDNA company or website as a source and I happen to know the 'British' sample for AncestryDNA probably comes from a very Anglo-Saxon part of England. Just ask Sikeliot he is aware of this fact, too, about the AncestryDNA sample.

[frankhammer]

That article quotes Ancestry DNA correct? Yet ADNA.com.au who did my sample gave me NO western European. 13% Scand, 21% Irish and 54% British. A mere 2% was Europe West.

How consistent is the methodology and reporting from ADNA regional testing centers to those in the UK/Ireland?

[TEUTORIGOS]

That article quotes Ancestry DNA correct? Yet ADNA.com.au who did my sample gave me NO western European. 13% Scand, 21% Irish and 54% British. A mere 2% was Europe West.

How consistent is the methodology and reporting from ADNA regional testing centers to those in the UK/Ireland?

Sorry, I don't know anything about ADNA. I dunno, I like to think people like us are the real genetically pure Brits i.e. people of Irish, Anglo-Saxon and Norse ancestry and that these other people with continental admixture are fake British people or poseurs which would mean the vast majority of them :P :thumb001:

[Fantomas]

Like 35-40% Anglo-Saxon, on average, not counting Norse admixture. 'British' is synonymous with Anglo-Saxon, here. According to AncestryDNA I am 52% Irish, 37% British (Anglo-Saxon) and 6 % Scandinavian.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg
From the same source:

A recent study by scientists at the University of Oxford attempted to delve further into the genetic past of the British people.
Researchers analysed the genetic code of 2,000 white Britons and compared the results to data on more than 6,000 people from ten European countries.
They found that many of us have DNA that is 45 per cent French in origin while many white Britons are a quarter German.
Surprisingly, given that they invaded and occupied large parts of the British Isles for four centuries, there is little genetic trace of the Romans.
Similarly, the Vikings may have a reputation for rape and pillage but the genetic evidence shows they did not have enough children with the locals for their Danish DNA to be present today.
The Anglo-Saxons, in contrast, did leave a genetic legacy, with about 20 per cent of the DNA of many English people coming from the invaders who arrived 1,600 years ago.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html#ixzz4tfXpnEIz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
----------------------------

Anyway it looks more credible

[TEUTORIGOS]

From the same source:

A recent study by scientists at the University of Oxford attempted to delve further into the genetic past of the British people.
Researchers analysed the genetic code of 2,000 white Britons and compared the results to data on more than 6,000 people from ten European countries.
They found that many of us have DNA that is 45 per cent French in origin while many white Britons are a quarter German.
Surprisingly, given that they invaded and occupied large parts of the British Isles for four centuries, there is little genetic trace of the Romans.
Similarly, the Vikings may have a reputation for rape and pillage but the genetic evidence shows they did not have enough children with the locals for their Danish DNA to be present today.
The Anglo-Saxons, in contrast, did leave a genetic legacy, with about 20 per cent of the DNA of many English people coming from the invaders who arrived 1,600 years ago.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html#ixzz4tfXpnEIz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
----------------------------

Anyway it looks more credible

Well, 'many of us' is vague and anyway Autosomal DNA tests for ancestry currently struggle, or to be honest, fail, to distinguish between populations in the Netherlands, Belgium, SE England, Northern Germany, and NE France. So, I doubt how 'credible' it is. I am 25% Germanic French from Alsace-Lorraine and AncestryDNA lumps it in with my 'British' it seems. Trying to seperate Dutch and lower Rhine people from the 'British' is currently impossible due to the shared Bell Beaker heritage.

[Fantomas]

Well, 'many of us' is vague and anyway Autosomal DNA tests for ancestry currently struggle, or to be honest, fail, to distinguish between populations in the Netherlands, Belgium, SE England, Northern Germany, and NE France. So, I doubt how 'credible' it is. I am 25% Germanic French from Alsace-Lorraine and AncestryDNA lumps it in with my 'British' it seems. Trying to seperate Dutch and lower Rhine people from the 'British' is currently impossible due to the shared Bell Beaker heritage.
Authors of those works, from my and your sources wrote what they wrote. Northern European( original Germanic) ancestry is a minority on Isles

[Sikeliot]

Irish-like ancestry seems to increase in the north and west of England.

[Bobby Martnen]

I1 is the Germanic haplogroup. Subtract Ireland's I1 percentage from England's, and you have your answer

[Bloody]

England is like 30% invader...Angles, Saxons, jutes, Normans, VIkings, and 70% native Brythonic, scotland is 25% invader/75% native.... Wales and Ireland only about 10-20% invader only. British Isles are overwhelmingly of Brythonic , Gaelic and pict ancestry.

Now if you want to ask about strictly anglo saxon.. . Probably in Enland only about 10-15% of ancestry is truly from Angles, saxons and jutes.

[Dick]

Now if you want to ask about strictly anglo saxon.. . Probably in Enland only about 10-15% of ancestry is truly from Angles, saxons and jutes.

yeah makes sense, maybe 25% tops.

[JohnSmith]

I consider myself somewhat Germanic due to English ancestry. Not sure or care about the percent.

[Grace O'Malley]

England is like 30% invader...Angles, Saxons, jutes, Normans, VIkings, and 70% native Brythonic, scotland is 25% invader/75% native.... Wales and Ireland only about 10-20% invader only. British Isles are overwhelmingly of Brythonic , Gaelic and pict ancestry.

Now if you want to ask about strictly anglo saxon.. . Probably in Enland only about 10-15% of ancestry is truly from Angles, saxons and jutes.

This is the make up of Irish and British from the study the Irish DNA Atlas. Make of it what you will.

http://i65.tinypic.com/28h0w7k.jpg

[Peterski]

Generally speaking modern English are mostly Pre-Germanic, even in South-East England.

Anyone can calculate this based on the data below:

Figure S8 shows that even Iron Age Britons had a lot of "red" component which peaks in Anglo-Saxons:

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

S8 Fig. ADMIXTURE analysis (k=2) for PoBI/Irish cluster groups with ancient British samples:

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.s008

https://i.imgur.com/3Dy55ZI.png

^^^ I measured the bars and calculated percentages of red and green components:

Iron Age Britons (n=4):

93% green + 7% red ---> kind of outlier compared to all other IA and RM samples, "super Celtic" person
59% green + 41% red
71% green + 29% red
57% green + 43% red
Average:
70% green + 30% red

Roman era Britons (n=6):

79% green + 21% red
54% green + 46% red
43% green + 57% red
63% green + 37% red
36% green + 64% red
38% green + 62% red
Average:
52% green + 48% red

IA + Roman Average (n=10):
59% green + 41% red

Anglo-Saxons (n=8):

54% green + 46% red ---> outlier (clearly mixed with Britons, or even just an assimilated Celtic Briton)
3% green + 98% red
11% green + 89% red
0% green + 100% red
5% green + 95% red
10% green + 90% red
1% green + 99% red
0% green + 100% red

Average with outlier:
10% green + 90% red
Average without outlier:
4% green + 96% red

Modern South-East England (SEE, n=830):

Average:
37.5% green + 62.5% red

And nMonte results for Modern SEE below:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
IA-RM_Avg Roman_Era Iron_Age Anglo-Saxon
30.40559 35.58792 45.96194 47.37615

Modern_SEE, Mixed Mode:

Anglo-Saxon 43.8%
IA-RM_Avg 32.6%
Iron_Age 23.6%

So modern South-East English are surely less than half Anglo-Saxon.

I used the Anglo-Saxon average without outlier (4% green, 96% red).

Another run, this time nMonte2:

Normal:

Modern_SEE

Anglo-Saxon 42.8
IA_RM_Avg 38.6
Iron_Age 18.6
Roman_Era 0.0

Restricted:

Modern_SEE

Anglo-Saxon 43.6
IA_RM_Avg 33.9
Iron_Age 22.6

These two Roman era samples with low "green" are probably the R1b-U106 gladiators from Eburacum:


36% green + 64% red
38% green + 62% red

Those 2 gladiators were probably partially of Germanic ancestry (indicated by their auDNA and Y-DNA).

After removing them, we get an average of 65% green and 35% red components for 8 IA-RM samples.

Also the Roman era average without these two samples is 60% green and 40% red (n=4).

The Iron Age average without that one 93% green outlier, is 62% green and 38% red (n=3).

After removing 3 Pre-Anglo-Saxon outliers, we get an average of 61% green + 39% red (n=7).

^^^ All possible averages below:

,Green,Red
Iron_Age-n4,70.0,30.0
Iron_Age-n3,62.3,37.7
Roman_Era-n6,52.2,47.8
Roman_Era-n4,59.8,40.2
IA-RM_Avg-n10,59.3,40.7
IA-RM_Avg-n8,64.9,35.1
IA-RM_Avg-n7,60.9,39.1
Anglo-Saxon-n7,4.3,95.7

,Green,Red
Modern_SEE,37.5,62.5

=================

And some mixture models for South-East England:

Modern_SEE

IA-RM_Avg-n7 58.6%
Anglo-Saxon-n7 41.4%

Modern_SEE

IA-RM_Avg-n8 54.8%
Anglo-Saxon-n7 45.2%

Modern_SEE

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Roman_Era-n6 IA-RM_Avg-n10 Roman_Era-n4 IA-RM_Avg-n7 Iron_Age-n3
20.78894 30.82986 31.53696 33.09260 35.07250
IA-RM_Avg-n8 Iron_Age-n4 Anglo-Saxon-n7
38.74945 45.96194 46.95189

Modern_SEE

Anglo-Saxon-n7 37.30%
Roman_Era-n6 22.60%
IA-RM_Avg-n10 17.55%
Roman_Era-n4 12.40%
IA-RM_Avg-n7 6.20%
Iron_Age-n3 3.20%
Iron_Age-n4 0.40%
IA-RM_Avg-n8 0.35%

========================

To sum up, even modern South-East England is just 35-45% Germanic.

Perhaps East Anglia is a bit more, as it seems more Germanic than Kent (see below).

This study shows, that Kent shares more alleles with Pre-Anglo-Saxon DNA from Eburacum, than East Anglia. So Kent is less Germanic than East Anglia. Figure 5: Interpolated maps of allele frequency comparing Roman York samples and modern populations from the British Isles:

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

https://i.imgur.com/3dVsbuc.png

But even East Anglia is probably no more than 50% Germanic.

[SvartVarg]

Areas with little population movement? But may be more than the norm. South England may not count in that sense. Yorkshire, for example, is 41% or something Anglo-Saxon I believe per some study.

[JohnSmith]

Brits have the best mix. Not to much of one thing makes a great people with a powerful empire that the sun never set on!!

[Sikeliot]

This is the make up of Irish and British from the study the Irish DNA Atlas. Make of it what you will.

http://i65.tinypic.com/28h0w7k.jpg


A few points. "German," "Belgian," and "Danish" ancestry seem to be correlated with Anglo-Saxon ancestry, and the frequencies of such components in Ireland seem to single which regions have the most and least migration from Britain.

Northern Ireland clusters clearly have the most, but amongst the "Gaelic" Irish clusters, Ulster and South Munster have the least total combined ancestry from these, while Leinster has the most, and then Dublin, Connacht, Central Ireland, and North Munster are somewhere in between.

[Óttar]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg
The terminology on this map is ridiculous. "British" is a geographic and political term. ENGLISH is what it should say.

[Peterski]

A few points. "German," "Belgian," and "Danish" ancestry seem to be correlated with Anglo-Saxon ancestry, and the frequencies of such components in Ireland seem to single which regions have the most and least migration from Britain.

But also some Belgians (Belgae) settled in Britain long before Anglo-Saxons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae

[Ruggery]

Brits have the best mix. Not to much of one thing makes a great people with a powerful empire that the sun never set on!!


That is a phrase copied from the Spanish empire

[Smeagol]

Probably like 40%. Irish have significant Germanic ancestry too.

[Ruggery]

Areas with little population movement? But may be more than the norm. South England may not count in that sense. Yorkshire, for example, is 41% or something Anglo-Saxon I believe per some study.


I had read in a source that there are also Viking genes in Yorkshire. I do not remember what the source was if someone knows that I confirm it.

[JohnSmith]

Just be happy with whatever it is. I never seen myself as being much Germanic my children have a lot Germanic influence.

[Grace O'Malley]

Probably like 40%. Irish have significant Germanic ancestry too.

Yes genetically but I'm sure people will agree that they are a Celtic population.

[Grace O'Malley]

We now know that the English and the Irish had slightly different influences on their makeup and basically all of Britain and Ireland were affected by incursions from certain European populations. Anyway it has been obvious for years to anyone looking at dna plots that both populations are not very different genetically. The base of both Britain and Ireland is a Northwest French like component which is obvious across all Celtic areas then these populations were affected by groups like the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans and this is what history and dna shows us. In summary the English have more Anglo-Saxon input (which everyone is aware of for centuries) and the Irish, West Scots and Orcadians have more a Norse input. A lot of interesting studies have come out in the last couple of years about both Britain and Ireland so people no longer need to speculate. We now are fairly clear about the genetic make up of both these populations so my hope is that people will read these studies and we will no longer have some of the odd speculations and theories from some posters.

What would be great now is for more genetic studies to be done on other European populations. I would especially like to see one done on the French but that doesn't look like it will be anytime soon with their stupid laws on dna testing. :picard2: Anyway hopefully more of these studies will be done on places like Spain, Germany etc. One can only hope.

Anyway people can speculate about other populations but there is no need with Ireland and Britain thanks to the excellent genetic studies that have been done in the last couple of years and some are still ongoing. Anyone from these populations or descended from them are indeed very fortunate.

[Ruggery]

We now know that the English and the Irish had slightly different influences on their makeup and basically all of Britain and Ireland were affected by incursions from certain European populations. Anyway it has been obvious for years to anyone looking at dna plots that both populations are not very different genetically. The base of both Britain and Ireland is a Northwest French like component which is obvious across all Celtic areas then these populations were affected by groups like the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans and this is what history and dna shows us. In summary the English have more Anglo-Saxon input (which everyone is aware of for centuries) and the Irish, West Scots and Orcadians have more a Norse input. A lot of interesting studies have come out in the last couple of years about both Britain and Ireland so people no longer need to speculate. We now are fairly clear about the genetic make up of both these populations so my hope is that people will read these studies and we will no longer have some of the odd speculations and theories from some posters.

What would be great now is for more genetic studies to be done on other European populations. I would especially like to see one done on the French but that doesn't look like it will be anytime soon with their stupid laws on dna testing. :picard2: Anyway hopefully more of these studies will be done on places like Spain, Germany etc. One can only hope.

Anyway people can speculate about other populations but there is no need with Ireland and Britain thanks to the excellent genetic studies that have been done in the last couple of years and some are still ongoing. Anyone from these populations or descended from them are indeed very fortunate.


Ireland there are not many Anglo-Saxon or Viking genes like in Scotland? even if it is small incursions.

[Grace O'Malley]

Ireland there are not many Anglo-Saxon or Viking genes like in Scotland? even if it is small incursions.

The only place with more Norse than Ireland is Orkney. Here are two recent dna studies done on the Irish population.

A striking result of our admixture analysis is the surprising amount of Norwegian-like ancestry in our Irish clusters. We also detected high levels of Norwegian ancestry in Orcadian and Scottish clusters, and relatively low Norwegian ancestry in English and Welsh clusters. The Norwegian clusters that contribute significant ancestry to any Irish or British clusters predominantly consist of individuals from counties on the north or western coasts of Norway (Fig. 3b). These areas are noted to be regions where Norse Viking activity originated from8. Whilst this surprising Norwegian signal in Ireland is most likely due to Norwegian admixture into Ireland, indeed this would corroborate with accounts of Irish slave trade in the Viking era29, and Y-chromosomal analysis (unpublished). To test this hypothesis we ran an additional regression admixture analysis, this time modelling Norwegian haplotypes as a mixture of Irish, British, or European haplotypes (Supplementary Data 6). We observe significant proportions of Irish, Scottish, and Orcadian ancestry in modern Norway (6.82%, 2.29%, and 2.13%, respectively), particularly western Norway. This could provide evidence for Irish admixture back into Norway, but could also easily be explained by Norwegian haplotypes existing in Ireland, Scotland, and Orkney. Therefore, we are able to provide an upper estimate of ~20% Norwegian ancestry within Ireland, but unable to provide an empirical lower limit.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

To temporally anchor the major historical admixture events into Ireland we used GLOBETROTTER [23] with modern surrogate populations represented by 4,514 Europeans [24] and 1,973 individuals from the PoBI dataset [7], excluding individuals sampled from Northern Ireland. Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish genomes was best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans, with a significant single-date one-source admixture event overlapping the historical period of the Norse-Viking settlements in Ireland (p < 0.01; fit quality FQB > 0.985; Fig 6). This was recapitulated to varying degrees in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups within Ireland, with the strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded Viking settlement in Ireland was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and north Leinster/Ulster (S5 Fig; S6 Table). This suggests a contribution of historical Viking settlement to the contemporary Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking ancestry in Ireland based on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [25]. The modern-day paucity of Norse-Viking Y chromosome haplotypes may be a consequence of drift with the small patrilineal effective population size, or could have social origins with Norse males having less influence after their military defeat and demise as an identifiable community in the 11th century, with persistence of the autosomal signal through recombination.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

As I've said above read the studies. They are very comprehensive.

[Ruggery]

The only place with more Norse than Ireland is Orkney. Here are two recent dna studies done on the Irish population.

A striking result of our admixture analysis is the surprising amount of Norwegian-like ancestry in our Irish clusters. We also detected high levels of Norwegian ancestry in Orcadian and Scottish clusters, and relatively low Norwegian ancestry in English and Welsh clusters. The Norwegian clusters that contribute significant ancestry to any Irish or British clusters predominantly consist of individuals from counties on the north or western coasts of Norway (Fig. 3b). These areas are noted to be regions where Norse Viking activity originated from8. Whilst this surprising Norwegian signal in Ireland is most likely due to Norwegian admixture into Ireland, indeed this would corroborate with accounts of Irish slave trade in the Viking era29, and Y-chromosomal analysis (unpublished). To test this hypothesis we ran an additional regression admixture analysis, this time modelling Norwegian haplotypes as a mixture of Irish, British, or European haplotypes (Supplementary Data 6). We observe significant proportions of Irish, Scottish, and Orcadian ancestry in modern Norway (6.82%, 2.29%, and 2.13%, respectively), particularly western Norway. This could provide evidence for Irish admixture back into Norway, but could also easily be explained by Norwegian haplotypes existing in Ireland, Scotland, and Orkney. Therefore, we are able to provide an upper estimate of ~20% Norwegian ancestry within Ireland, but unable to provide an empirical lower limit.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

To temporally anchor the major historical admixture events into Ireland we used GLOBETROTTER [23] with modern surrogate populations represented by 4,514 Europeans [24] and 1,973 individuals from the PoBI dataset [7], excluding individuals sampled from Northern Ireland. Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish genomes was best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans, with a significant single-date one-source admixture event overlapping the historical period of the Norse-Viking settlements in Ireland (p < 0.01; fit quality FQB > 0.985; Fig 6). This was recapitulated to varying degrees in specific genetically- and geographically-defined groups within Ireland, with the strongest signals in south and central Leinster (the largest recorded Viking settlement in Ireland was Dubh linn in present-day Dublin), followed by Connacht and north Leinster/Ulster (S5 Fig; S6 Table). This suggests a contribution of historical Viking settlement to the contemporary Irish genome and contrasts with previous estimates of Viking ancestry in Ireland based on Y chromosome haplotypes, which have been very low [25]. The modern-day paucity of Norse-Viking Y chromosome haplotypes may be a consequence of drift with the small patrilineal effective population size, or could have social origins with Norse males having less influence after their military defeat and demise as an identifiable community in the 11th century, with persistence of the autosomal signal through recombination.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152

As I've said above read the studies. They are very comprehensive.

Good data I did not know and a question in the Viking settlements in Ireland had Viking women because if that Norwegian haplogroup is also found in women it should be because there were Nordic women unless it is the product of violations.

[Grace O'Malley]

Good data I did not know and a question in the Viking settlements in Ireland had Viking women because if that Norwegian haplogroup is also found in women it should be because there were Nordic women unless it is the product of violations.

Good question. They do have some mtdna and ydna data that they haven't released yet. I think there will be more information on that when they release their information on Iceland which hopefully will come out sometime this year. I have a feeling though that mtdna is overwhelmingly Gaelic as if we look at Iceland the mtdna was approx 65% Gaelic and the ydna 80% Norse. They aren't releasing their information on Iceland until it is published. Hopefully we will get snippets of info as this is what occurred with the Irish DNA Atlas before it was published.

[celticdragongod]

Brits have the best mix. Not to much of one thing makes a great people with a powerful empire that the sun never set on!!

I am not much of a historian but I think most of the British empire is gone. :D

[JohnSmith]

I am not much of a historian but I think most of the British empire is gone. :D

It is pretty much, even if Canada has the Queen on their money,lol.

[Graham]

The only place with more Norse than Ireland is Orkney. Here are two recent dna studies done on the Irish population.

[/url]

As I've said above read the studies. They are very comprehensive.

I'd hold your bets on areas of the Hebrides being up there also. Their Gaelic is even Norse influenced. Where your Gallowglass mostly came from. Plus Shetland hasnt been done, or Caithness & Sutherland. :P

[Grace O'Malley]

I'd hold your bets on areas of the Hebrides being up there also. Their Gaelic is even Norse influenced. Where your Gallowglass mostly came from. Plus Shetland hasnt been done, or Caithness & Sutherland. :P

No doubt about it. I'm sure they will look at these areas. They did mention the Hebrides in the IDA as an area that they would like to look at. I think they will look at these areas i.e. the Western Scottish isles (or they might have already done so). They have information on Iceland which they haven't published yet and I would presume they have looked at these areas for that study. They did mention the Gallowglass as a possible source of some of the Norse in the Irish.

[Septentrion]

Just be happy with whatever it is. I never seen myself as being much Germanic my children have a lot Germanic influence.

The English are one the most Germanic people in Europe. They Generally carry 55% to 65% of Germanic paternal lineages depending on the counties, most Germanic in northern and eastern parts. They have a good amount of Celtic admixture much more on the female lineages than male. This is reason why the English and Lowland Scots are the most red-headed of all Germanic folks, as well as the palest. Dark hair is commonest in Warwickshire ( west) and to an extent also the Greater London area. Most of the area that was once know Danelaw is where the highest frequency of fair hair is found. The English are as whole more fair-haired and light-haired than the Welsh, Scottish and Irish, but show less red hair as whole. Though Northern England is one of the most red-haired places in the planet. The South-West England region is not as dark-haired as stereotyped, but is more dark-eyed.

[Septentrion]

Yes genetically but I'm sure people will agree that they are a Celtic population.

Come on. You should know better than that! The English are essentially Germanic with Celtic admixtures which are most likely through the female line. Genetically there is a good part which stands out well enough as Germanic. Central English Y-chromosome were shown to be virtually identical to Frisian ones, while that of the North Welsh differ considerably.

[Ruggery]

The English are one the most Germanic people in Europe. They Generally carry 55% to 65% of Germanic paternal lineages depending on the counties, most Germanic in northern and eastern parts. They have a good amount of Celtic admixture much more on the female lineages than male. This is reason why the English and Lowland Scots are the most red-headed of all Germanic folks, as well as the palest. Dark hair is commonest in Warwickshire ( west) and to an extent also the Greater London area. Most of the area that was once know Danelaw is where the highest frequency of fair hair is found. The English are as whole more fair-haired and light-haired than the Welsh, Scottish and Irish, but show less red hair as whole. Though Northern England is one of the most red-haired places in the planet. The South-West England region is not as dark-haired as stereotyped, but is more dark-eyed.

The Scots and Irish have more clear eyes percentage and on average, have more pale skin than the English. If you do not believe me, ask Grace O'Malley that she knows the Irish very well.

[Ayetooey]

Anywhere from 5-35 percent Germanic by autosomal dna, the rest pre Anglo largely Celtic. Germanic ancestry peaks in East-Anglia at 35-40 percent. Least Germanic areas are Devon/Somerset and parts of the North-West. Contrary to popular belief the Scots aren't massively more Celtic than the English, and can be anywhere from 25-5 percent Germanic depending on the region, with the lowlands being the most Germanic. Viking effects on the British population are negligible and only significantly found in Orkney. English are predominantly Celtic by dna, but obviously Germanic by nationhood and cultural history.

[Grace O'Malley]

Anywhere from 5-35 percent Germanic by autosomal dna, the rest pre Anglo largely Celtic. Germanic ancestry peaks in East-Anglia at 35-40 percent. Least Germanic areas are Devon/Somerset and parts of the North-West. Contrary to popular belief the Scots aren't massively more Celtic than the English, and can be anywhere from 25-5 percent Germanic depending on the region, with the lowlands being the most Germanic. Viking effects on the British population are negligible and only significantly found in Orkney. English are predominantly Celtic by dna, but obviously Germanic by nationhood and cultural history.

Irish and West Scots also have a significant amount of Norse dna but the English have more German/Danish i.e. Anglo-Saxon input.


A striking result of our admixture analysis is the surprising amount of Norwegian-like ancestry in our Irish clusters. We also detected high levels of Norwegian ancestry in Orcadian and Scottish clusters, and relatively low Norwegian ancestry in English and Welsh clusters. The Norwegian clusters that contribute significant ancestry to any Irish or British clusters predominantly consist of individuals from counties on the north or western coasts of Norway (Fig. 3b). These areas are noted to be regions where Norse Viking activity originated from8. Whilst this surprising Norwegian signal in Ireland is most likely due to Norwegian admixture into Ireland, indeed this would corroborate with accounts of Irish slave trade in the Viking era29, and Y-chromosomal analysis (unpublished).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

[Grace O'Malley]

The Scots and Irish have more clear eyes percentage and on average, have more pale skin than the English. If you do not believe me, ask Grace O'Malley that she knows the Irish very well.

Septentrion can tell you statistics far better than me.

[Grace O'Malley]

Come on. You should know better than that! The English are essentially Germanic with Celtic admixtures which are most likely through the female line. Genetically there is a good part which stands out well enough as Germanic. Central English Y-chromosome were shown to be virtually identical to Frisian ones, while that of the North Welsh differ considerably.

We were taking about the Irish. Look at the comment I was replying to.

[Sikeliot]

Anywhere from 5-35 percent Germanic by autosomal dna, the rest pre Anglo largely Celtic. Germanic ancestry peaks in East-Anglia at 35-40 percent. Least Germanic areas are Devon/Somerset and parts of the North-West. Contrary to popular belief the Scots aren't massively more Celtic than the English, and can be anywhere from 25-5 percent Germanic depending on the region, with the lowlands being the most Germanic. Viking effects on the British population are negligible and only significantly found in Orkney. English are predominantly Celtic by dna, but obviously Germanic by nationhood and cultural history.

I would imagine regions close to Wales (Shropshire, Wiltshire, Staffordshire) also are on the lower end for Germanic input and higher end for Celtic.

[Tooting Carmen]

Unlike in other European countries, I'd say the pigmentation divide in England, although minor, is more East-West rather than North-South. Even between the East and West Midlands (I have lived in both) there is a slight difference - there are definitely more blonde Germanic types in the former than the latter.

[celticdragongod]

Come on. You should know better than that! The English are essentially Germanic with Celtic admixtures which are most likely through the female line. Genetically there is a good part which stands out well enough as Germanic. Central English Y-chromosome were shown to be virtually identical to Frisian ones, while that of the North Welsh differ considerably.

But Y-chromosomes make up only a small portion of the genome. Autosomal DNA gives a better indication of ancestry.

[celticdragongod]

The English are one the most Germanic people in Europe. They Generally carry 55% to 65% of Germanic paternal lineages depending on the counties, most Germanic in northern and eastern parts. They have a good amount of Celtic admixture much more on the female lineages than male. This is reason why the English and Lowland Scots are the most red-headed of all Germanic folks, as well as the palest. Dark hair is commonest in Warwickshire ( west) and to an extent also the Greater London area. Most of the area that was once know Danelaw is where the highest frequency of fair hair is found. The English are as whole more fair-haired and light-haired than the Welsh, Scottish and Irish, but show less red hair as whole. Though Northern England is one of the most red-haired places in the planet. The South-West England region is not as dark-haired as stereotyped, but is more dark-eyed.

What is the source for your claim that the English "carry 55% to 65% of Germanic paternal lineages depending on the counties"?

[Coastal Elite]

I think the difference is negligible. The common link between English, Irish, and Germanic ancestry is the Bell Beakers and prior Cored Ware culture. People are making too much of labels like "Celts", "Anglo-Saxons", "Norse", "Germanic", and forgetting about the deeper roots/links.

[Ayetooey]

England is defo Germanic, and shares a lot with Netherlands, North Germany etc.

(My old post on the previous page argues otherwise, I have learnt more since then).

[Norb]

bump

[Token]

A lot.

[J. Ketch]

Celtic Britons were already different to the Irish. According to Lara Cassidy they cluster with modern Brits from Devon and the Anglo-Welsh marches.

[Grace O'Malley]

Celtic Britons were already different to the Irish. According to Lara Cassidy they cluster with modern Brits from Devon and the Anglo-Welsh marches.

I hear so many snippets from Lara Cassidy's paper and it can't come out soon enough. It seems like I've been waiting forever for this paper. I hope it is as good as it sounds.

[Davystayn]

I thought it was 10% even in Wales to 40% in eastern England. Welsh people in general are nowhere near as dark as some make out, but there is a noticeable difference.

A lot of the marches (Shropshire, Herefordshire etc) and south west is certainly more like Wales than England.

The further west the further from the east coast and the land gets too hilly, just not as good for crops. Makes sense they took all the best farmland.

[Tooting Carmen]

I thought it was 10% even in Wales to 40% in eastern England. Welsh people in general are nowhere near as dark as some make out, but there is a noticeable difference.

A lot of the marches (Shropshire, Herefordshire etc) and south west is certainly more like Wales than England.

The further west the further from the east coast and the land gets too hilly, just not as good for crops. Makes sense they took all the best farmland.

Yes, people in Bristol, Swindon, Gloucester etc. don't look much if at all different to the Welsh. It is when you head further north and east in England that you start to notice more light Germanic types.

[Davystayn]

Yes, people in Bristol, Swindon, Gloucester etc. don't look much if at all different to the Welsh. It is when you head further north and east in England that you start to notice more light Germanic types.

The proper border could arguably run from Southampton, Birmingham to Liverpool.

West Country England to Offas dyke more of a land grab, the population largely stayed the same with new landowners I reckon.

I grew up in the sticks near Gloucester and my school was divided between kids who's parents had moved to the area (like mine) and the proper locals (isn't the west country accent a sign of 'celtic' ancestry?).

Travelling to central and eastern England the difference in how people look, from how they do in the west country, can be quite striking , and the north especially.

It would be interesting to do an analysis of regional cricket sides, they would be a good representation of rural people.

[Septentrion]

The Scottish and Irish are as a whole the fairest - complected people on earth. Thus it doesn’t change the fact that the English are Germanic!!!

[IndoEuropeanR1b]

Irish-like people en England are not so different genetically and phenotypically from the most saxon-like ones. West english are obviously more irish-like related, with high frequencies of R1b-L21 and east english are more saxon due high R1b-U106, but also more continental celtic and iberian beaker related, with high frequencies of R1b-U152 and R1b-DF27.

[Septentrion]

Irish-like people en England are not so different genetically and phenotypically from the most saxon-like ones. West english are obviously more irish-like related, with high frequencies of R1b-L21 and east english are more saxon due high R1b-U106, but also more continental celtic and iberian beaker related, with high frequencies of R1b-U152 and R1b-DF27.

Please get it straight. Don’t confuse stuff! Tell things the way they are.
The most common Y - DNA haplogroup in England is R1b - U106, the highest frequencies are in eastern, southern and central parts of England! Ok. Similar frequencies are found in other areas of the North Sea regions of Europe particularly the Netherlands and Denmark. The R1b - L21 Y - DNA haplogroup is commonest in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and NW England, this comes as no surprise as it is the most Celtic regions of the British Islands. Before the Anglo - Saxon arrival, the R1b - L21 was the most dominant paternal haplogroup by far even in central, southern and eastern England.
Correction:
The Beaker Folk component found in the British and Irish is from NW Europe particularly the Netherlands and not from Iberia as you wrote.

[JamesBond007]

I don't think Y-DNA is very useful for this stuff.

Me :

Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 2.0805% / 0.02080509
64.0 England_Saxon
34.0 England_Roman
2.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna


English average :

Target: English average
Distance: 0.8827% / 0.00882711
44.4 England_Roman
30.6 England_Saxon
25.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

England-Roman is Welsh-like the Viking is scandinavian and I am R1b-L21. Saxon is northern German/Danish/Frisian.

[Septentrion]

But Y-chromosomes make up only a small portion of the genome. Autosomal DNA gives a better indication of ancestry.

The Y - chromosome is good to indicate origins of a population. By the Y - DNA, we are able to confirm that Germanic did settle in lowland Britain in good enough numbers, in order to leave their lasting genetic impact on the English. Many of these Germany were males who took unto wives Brittonic females. This is why Germanic maternal lineages englobe over half of the male lineages of the English and Lowland Scottish.

[Septentrion]

I don't think Y-DNA is very useful for this stuff.

Me :

Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 2.0805% / 0.02080509
64.0 England_Saxon
34.0 England_Roman
2.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna


English average :

Target: English average
Distance: 0.8827% / 0.00882711
44.4 England_Roman
30.6 England_Saxon
25.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

England-Roman is Welsh-like the Viking is scandinavian and I am R1b-L21. Saxon is northern German/Danish/Frisian.

What a stupid statement!!!
« Idon't think Y-DNA is very useful for this stuff»
Of course it is! The Y- DNA helps us understand the history. You are R1b - L21, this shows us that you carry the Celtic maternal lineage.

[IndoEuropeanR1b]

Please get it straight. Don’t confuse stuff! Tell things the way they are.
The most common Y - DNA haplogroup in England is R1b - U106, the highest frequencies are in eastern, southern and central parts of England! Ok. Similar frequencies are found in other areas of the North Sea regions of Europe particularly the Netherlands and Denmark. The R1b - L21 Y - DNA haplogroup is commonest in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and NW England, this comes as no surprise as it is the most Celtic regions of the British Islands. Before the Anglo - Saxon arrival, the R1b - L21 was the most dominant paternal haplogroup by far even in central, southern and eastern England.
Correction:
The Beaker Folk component found in the British and Irish is from NW Europe particularly the Netherlands and not from Iberia as you wrote.

You better calm down waffle, because you are the one wrong here. Most common haplogroup in England, as a whole, are U106 and L21 equally, but U106 trends more to east and L21 to west. Insular celts are not actually truly celt, this has to be clear, meaning that L21 is not celtic as some pages states but northern beaker, this is why countries like Norway has high frequencies of this marker.

What i meant is that irish are northern european inside the same cluster as english people.

Edit: iberian beakers DF27 had great impact in the southern English coast and Wales, go to anthrogenica and see how many English and WASP are DF27.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I used Eurogenes K13 to make these plots, I know it is a somewhat rudimentary method but the data shows nothing new, namely that most of the ancestry of the English is pre-Anglo-Saxon.

https://i.imgur.com/qTVWfqy.png

https://i.imgur.com/he7zgC4.png

[Davystayn]

It has to be remembered that all this input was settler period AD400 onwards and the incomers were never going to outnumber the locals initially, it all had to come in boats over the sea.

Seems obvious that an eastern seaboard concentration was established before spreading west and either driving out and integrating with the natives.

There are few instances globally where such a change has taken place culturally and also genetically. Elite takeovers are common place across the world with little impact genetically, but this is a lot more than that and the genetics confirm what the other sources (place names etc) are saying.

Taking into account all these people had to cross a sea into an already established population a 35-37% average change is a huge change, equivalent to the whole population of the Netherlands living in the total UK population nowadays.

Problem is AS and later Danish dna can't be seperated, but undoubtedly Danish settlement later has given certain areas a boost, such as Yorkshire having the highest level regionally.

The native Britons were varied regionally too and were not a uniform people, as Tactitus pointed out, some were more Caledonian like (Iron Age type) with the Silures in SE Wales (who were noted to be swarthy). Romans would have some input, however small, though it doesnt often show up.