Rising sea levels and European nations

[Albion]

If sea levels continue to rise how will some low-lying European nations survive and cope?
There's a sea level rise map generator here (http://flood.firetree.net/) which shows sea level rise upto 14 meters.
I think we would defend our lands from rising sea levels, but just how far could we go until we were able to defend it no more?
And do you think we can reverse sea level rise, and what of potential refugees?
Would there be mass movements of Dutch to surrounding countries or would Eastern English flee to the rest, creating a smaller and yet more over-crowded England?

What are your views?

[The Lawspeaker]

Nah it is not going to rise and we have plenty of dikes and dams so..

[Albion]

Nah it is not going to rise and we have plenty of dikes and dams so..

Do you see the Netherlands embarking on any programs of expansion? With such a large population in relation to land area wouldn't expanding out a bit into the North Sea do some good?

[Bloodeagle]

If the seas were to rise a few meters, then I predict mass migrations of people to other places. It would prove far to expensive to erect affective sea walls to hold back the ocean. If there were a breach in the defense, the results would be catastrophic.
New lands in the East will become more livable as the Northern taiga thaws releasing even more CO2 and CH4 into the atmosphere. :)

[Albion]

If the seas were to rise a few meters, then I predict mass migrations of people to other places. It would prove far to expensive to erect affective sea walls to hold back the ocean. If there were a breach in the defense, the results would be catastrophic.
New lands in the East will become more livable as the Northern taiga thaws releasing even more CO2 and CH4 into the atmosphere. :)

Lucky for Russia, but not so for the Netherlands, Eastern England, Northern German or Denmark.
Russia would perhaps allow people to emigrate to Siberia but it would upset the balance with a new mass migration of Europeans, especially Slavs and Germanics to Siberia.
Like the native Americans have a connection to there land, that exists in Europe also, a love of one's country and all its little perks and places.

The Netherlands already has a lot of defences, but Germany and Eastern England aren't so well prepared.
If a large area of Eastern England were to become submerged I could see Western England basically becoming a large string of London-sized cities, a terrible thing to happen.
Scotland and Wales would also warm up and maybe areas of the Highlands and Cambrians would become more fertile and better for settlement. Although they're not cold exactly they aren't very well populated due to poor soils mainly.

I think a lot of climate refugees would flee to higher ground, but areas such as Eastern England and large areas of the Netherlands are just too big to let the sea take, but then also are big enough to make the cost of defending such a area phenomenal.

[Bloodeagle]

Lucky for Russia, but not so for the Netherlands, Eastern England, Northern German or Denmark.
Russia would perhaps allow people to emigrate to Siberia but it would upset the balance with a new mass migration of Europeans, especially Slavs and Germanics to Siberia.
Like the native Americans have a connection to there land, that exists in Europe also, a love of one's country and all its little perks and places.

The Netherlands already has a lot of defences, but Germany and Eastern England aren't so well prepared.
If a large area of Eastern England were to become submerged I could see Western England basically becoming a large string of London-sized cities, a terrible thing to happen.
Scotland and Wales would also warm up and maybe areas of the Highlands and Cambrians would become more fertile and better for settlement. Although they're not cold exactly they aren't very well populated due to poor soils mainly.

I think a lot of climate refugees would flee to higher ground, but areas such as Eastern England and large areas of the Netherlands are just too big to let the sea take, but then also are big enough to make the cost of defending such a area phenomenal.
Rising sea levels would have devastating affects on everyone.
Society may become so splintered through war and hardship that roving hordes of European people may not have any other choice than to seek new and higher places in foreign lands.

Countries affected could also band together and create a new nation with the money that they would be throwing away at sea walls. I am sure that there are a few nations that would be willing to sell off some of their property. :)

[Albion]

Rising sea levels would have devastating affects on everyone.
Society may become so splintered through war and hardship that roving hordes of European people may not have any other choice than to seek new and higher places in foreign lands.

Countries affected could also band together and create a new nation with the money that they would be throwing away at sea walls. I am sure that there are a few nations that would be willing to sell off some of their property. :)

Yes, new Germanic nations and ethnicities might emerge in Northern Europe where people fleeing from drowned areas settled.
There would perhaps be emigration to America, Canada and Australia as well as overspill into non-white countries and areas. I think your right about Russia though, along with a warmer Scandinavia it would house a lot of displaced peoples probably.

[Foxy]

The lagoon of Venice, part of the Padanian Flat, the Netherlands, Tallinn, Malmo, Glasgow and Edimburgh and part of Peloponnesus will disappear, and this must not happen.

[Albion]

The lagoon of Venice, part of the Padanian Flat, the Netherlands, Tallinn, Malmo, Glasgow and Edimburgh and part of Peloponnesus will disappear, and this must not happen.

And much of Eastern England and Northern Germany and Denmark. It would be a disaster for both our countries and ethnicities as any refugees from these areas would flee to other areas.
Venetians fleeing to other areas of Italy or Eastern English to Western England is alright, but if you had the Dutch for example migrating to Scotland, Belarus and Indonesia the Dutch intermarriage with the native ethnicities would change those cultures. Its the same for any migrant group, the more closely related the better, but in such times I think people would flee to wherever they could.

[S._Mikal]

http://www.ecoworld.com/articles/images/feller_chicoal_satellite.jpg

This satellite photo shows the haze (industrial pollution) coming upr from China, being captured in the Jet Stream, passing over Japan into the Arctic Circle. I then comes back down to Slaska / Canada, eastward to the Northeast coast, out over the Atlantic, into the Arctic again, over the Isles of the Brits, and on into the Eurasia continent.

China has, to date, no industrial pollution regulations. These pollutants come out of China daily, steadily circling the Northern Hemisphere. I daresay this is the main contributing factor for the Arctic glaciers melting and breaking up at a much faster rate than the Antarctica continent.

[Albion]

http://www.ecoworld.com/articles/images/feller_chicoal_satellite.jpg

This satellite photo shows the haze (industrial pollution) coming upr from China, being captured in the Jet Stream, passing over Japan into the Arctic Circle. I then comes back down to Slaska / Canada, eastward to the Northeast coast, out over the Atlantic, into the Arctic again, over the Isles of the Brits, and on into the Eurasia continent.

China has, to date, no industrial pollution regulations. These pollutants come out of China daily, steadily circling the Northern Hemisphere. I daresay this is the main contributing factor for the Arctic glaciers melting and breaking up at a much faster rate than the Antarctica continent.

Now we know where the causes of Asthma come from...

[S._Mikal]

Now we know where the causes of Asthma come from...

Yes, and it gets worse. Because there are no industrial regulations in China, the world sends their refuse there for disposal. For example plastics and old cell phones. Paper and aluminum cans. Not all but the vast majority of it goes there. One of China's "new" booming industries.


http://www.uktechnologylive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/air-pollution-300x235.jpg

[Albion]

Yes, and it gets worse. Because there are no industrial regulations in China, the world sends their refuse there for disposal. For example plastics and old cell phones. Paper and aluminum cans. Not all but the vast majority of it goes there. One of China's "new" booming industries.


http://www.uktechnologylive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/air-pollution-300x235.jpg

Yes, so basically they're getting around our regulations to protect the earth by shipping junk to China. Yes it is a bad situation, we need to stop it happening somehow. I'm surprised the EU hasn't done anything about it for Europe, they usually love a project like this.

[S._Mikal]

I found this from January of 2009. Not aware of what has happened since other than a big crunch to get China in step with Globalism.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jan/09/recycling-global-recession-china

[SaxonCeorl]

I think the Dutch are the experts par excellence on this issue, what with their elaborate, 3,500 miles worth of "dijks". From what I understand, the Dutch have developed a very safe and reliable system, which hopefully can be copied by other European nations in need. The Fens of England could benefit the most from consultation with the Dutch, as Eastern English land has much in common with that of their neighbors on the other side of the Channel.

Apparently, the Dutch rely more on creative manipulation of natural land features to control the water instead of building towering, unsightly flood walls. For instance, Dutch engineers absorb water into purpose-built wetlands, rivers, and canals. As you can see, this whole system has resulted in some very beautiful enhancements of the landscape:

http://tippinthescales.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/ls_dike.jpg
http://essentialurbanism.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/dutch-dikes.jpg
http://www.rfi.fr/actuen/images/108/netherlands_dikes_floods_432.jpg

Actually, the Dutch have not only prevented further encroachment upon their land from the sea, but have actually reclaimed land long covered in water. In 1986, they founded the new province of Flevoland upon land which used to be covered by the IJsselmeer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flevoland).

Some of us have raised concerns about cost; perhaps we could instead look at this as an opportunity for economic and industrial growth. There would be new sources of work for engineers, construction firms, maintenance crews, marine biologists, hydrologists, municipal planners, etc., and perhaps even new businesses could begin on lands reclaimed from the sea.

Interestingly, while some areas face concerns about progressive flooding, other coastal areas are growing due to sediment deposits over the centuries. When I was in England I remember visiting various towns and castles in Sussex where I learned of the medieval "Cinque Ports," which were royal port towns during the Plantagenet period. Some of these "ports" are now several miles inland, and I was shocked to learn that they used to be on the sea.

Then there's Venice, which, in my opinion, needs to be saved at all costs due to its sheer beauty and historical significance. Currently they're building a system of floodgates designed to keep out water up to 3 meters high, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project) called the MOSE Project (Modulo Sperimentale Elettromeccanico). It started in 2003 and is projected to be complete in 2014. The MOSE Wiki page says that it's being built to withstand even the most pessimistic figures of potential rise in sea level (60 cm). It costs a hefty 3 billion Euros :blink: It also seems that environmental groups are opposed to it. With all due respect, they can shove it: I'd rather save http://blog.shortstayapartment.com/wp-content/uploads/images/venice101.jpg and http://www.hotel-venice-tobook.com/images/stories/venice.jpg than http://www.mikesjournal.com/June%202006/Dead%20Fish.jpg. The government isn't thrilled about it either since it costs so much.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/3629387/Moses-project-to-secure-future-of-Venice.html

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01154/Venice-Dams-web_1154740c.jpg

Building erosion is another issue in Venice. One interesting idea is to foster the development of coral on the underwater foundations of buildings in order to safeguard them in a strong, rock-hard encasement of coral. (http://www.x-ray-mag.com/content/artificial-coral-save-venice)

Another idea is to inject water underneath the city in order to raise it up 30cm, which would bring it back to the height it was 300 years ago. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10143146/ns/technology_and_science-science/) This project also has its critics, who say the plan in only speculative and might not work at all.

Hopefully it will work out for the best and Venezia will remain in place for the next 1,000 years.

[Albion]

I think the Dutch are the experts par excellence on this issue, what with their elaborate, 3,500 miles worth of "dijks". From what I understand, the Dutch have developed a very safe and reliable system, which hopefully can be copied by other European nations in need.

Well with a quarter of their country below sea level I would hope so, its good that they're already prepared.


The Fens of England could benefit the most from consultation with the Dutch, as Eastern English land has much in common with that of their neighbors on the other side of the Channel.

A Dutchman was instrumental in draining the Fens in the first place, there are some flood protection measures but they need updating. On the other hand though a lot of salt marshes are being recreated or allowed to flood in The Wash, this helps absorb some of the surge waters in the event of a storm and is great for wildlife, especially wading birds. The Wash is similar to the Wadden Sea but much of it has been drained.


Apparently, the Dutch rely more on creative manipulation of natural land features to control the water instead of building towering, unsightly flood walls. For instance, Dutch engineers absorb water into purpose-built wetlands, rivers, and canals. As you can see, this whole system has resulted in some very beautiful enhancements of the landscape:

That is happening in East Anglia too, areas of wetlands are being allowed to revert to their natural state or expanded to their former range. Much of lowland England used to be a mix of wetlands and woodlands along with the Netherlands before both drained most of it for farmland.
Wetlands are some of the richest habitats there are for wildlife and in my opinion amongst the easiest to recreate. A lot of "drained" fields in England are in fact very boggy and the drains have fallen into disrepair, I know of many places like this and they eventually get wetter and wetter and get colonized by Willow trees and Downy Birch.
The UK's upland wetlands fared better than the lowland one's and there's growing interest in expanding the wetland areas, here's a map of former and potential wetland areas, of course not all these areas would be turned over to wetlands, most would probably stay as farmland:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/uk_enl_1215352492/img/1.jpg

And when you think about it, wetlands create two habitats - a deciduous woodland one and an aquatic one.


Actually, the Dutch have not only prevented further encroachment upon their land from the sea, but have actually reclaimed land long covered in water. In 1986, they founded the new province of Flevoland upon land which used to be covered by the IJsselmeer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flevoland).

Some of us have raised concerns about cost; perhaps we could instead look at this as an opportunity for economic and industrial growth. There would be new sources of work for engineers, construction firms, maintenance crews, marine biologists, hydrologists, municipal planners, etc., and perhaps even new businesses could begin on lands reclaimed from the sea.

Yes, I've read about Flevoland, I support it being reclaimed even though it did have an affect on the nature of the area for pretty much the same reasons you highlighted above.


Interestingly, while some areas face concerns about progressive flooding, other coastal areas are growing due to sediment deposits over the centuries. When I was in England I remember visiting various towns and castles in Sussex where I learned of the medieval "Cinque Ports," which were royal port towns during the Plantagenet period. Some of these "ports" are now several miles inland, and I was shocked to learn that they used to be on the sea.

Yes, I've seen a few examples of places being "stranded" inland which formerly used to be part of the sea. Much of the Holderness coast and coast of Norfolk is being eroded into the sea, people worry about it, but apart for the people who's houses face being swept away I don't think people should threat about it too much because as you say longshore drift carries it elsewhere anyway.

http://www.stacey.peak-media.co.uk/Holderness/Holderness/800-03270048.jpg

Most of the sediments from Holderness are being deposited further down from it along the Lincolnshire coast and slowly forming new land, this place is a good example:

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/ecolodge/25/spurn.gif

And Dungeness didn't exist until the middle ages I don;t think.


Then there's Venice, which, in my opinion, needs to be saved at all costs due to its sheer beauty and historical significance. Currently they're building a system of floodgates designed to keep out water up to 3 meters high, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project) called the MOSE Project (Modulo Sperimentale Elettromeccanico). It started in 2003 and is projected to be complete in 2014. The MOSE Wiki page says that it's being built to withstand even the most pessimistic figures of potential rise in sea level (60 cm). It costs a hefty 3 billion Euros :blink: It also seems that environmental groups are opposed to it. With all due respect, they can shove it: I'd rather save http://blog.shortstayapartment.com/wp-content/uploads/images/venice101.jpg and http://www.hotel-venice-tobook.com/images/stories/venice.jpg than http://www.mikesjournal.com/June%202006/Dead%20Fish.jpg. The government isn't thrilled about it either since it costs so much.

Yes, Venice is a different matter because its a important city with few areas really for wildlife. Venice, Amsterdam and London must be saved from rising sea levels, they're not the sort of places that can just be abandoned.

http://firstrung.co.uk/dbimgs/thames%20barrier.jpg

We don't want London looking like this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_enl_1185603003/img/1.jpg


Building erosion is another issue in Venice. One interesting idea is to foster the development of coral on the underwater foundations of buildings in order to safeguard them in a strong, rock-hard encasement of coral. (http://www.x-ray-mag.com/content/artificial-coral-save-venice)

I've heard that can take a long time when reading about artificial reef formation using electrolysis, you'd be waiting a few decades for any real effects.

[Wulfhere]

This is nothing new, of course. The North Sea was once dry land, known today as Doggerland, but called Atland in the ancient legends.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FraUxsnCivU/TP6cLTzFpqI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/jPpcbKQwvdY/s1600/Doggerland+10%252C000+BP.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FraUxsnCivU/TP6ckuL7uuI/AAAAAAAAAoU/ty2vgrChSdE/s1600/doggerland9000+BP.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FraUxsnCivU/TP6dCKvu7lI/AAAAAAAAAoY/wlMPyg2A9PA/s1600/Doggerland+7%252C000+BP.jpg

[SaxonCeorl]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FraUxsnCivU/TP6cLTzFpqI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/jPpcbKQwvdY/s1600/Doggerland+10%252C000+BP.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FraUxsnCivU/TP6ckuL7uuI/AAAAAAAAAoU/ty2vgrChSdE/s1600/doggerland9000+BP.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FraUxsnCivU/TP6dCKvu7lI/AAAAAAAAAoY/wlMPyg2A9PA/s1600/Doggerland+7%252C000+BP.jpg

Too bad this land formation didn't last longer...would've made the Anglo-Saxon conquest a lot more convenient. :thumb001:

[Wulfhere]

Too bad this land formation didn't last longer...would've made the Anglo-Saxon conquest a lot more convenient. :thumb001:

Indeed. And in fact, since the island was inhabited by the ancestors of the Anglo-Frisian tribes, it's quite likely that the eastern part of Britain was already settled by them anyway.

[Albion]

Too bad this land formation didn't last longer...would've made the Anglo-Saxon conquest a lot more convenient. :thumb001:

Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if it would have been absorbed into England or been a very different Germanic nation, I suppose Frisians probably would have settled it.