I1 haplogroup

[Lavrentis]

A question from a noob:

Some people claim that blonde hair and blue eyes arrived to Europe from Indo-Europeans. Since the I1 haplogroup is not IE, and it is a Germanic haplogroup which peaks in a blonde haired-blue eyed population, does it mean that the theory of blonde and blue eyed IE invaders is wrong?

[Arduti]

I-haplogroups are not originally Germanic
But they are highly admixed with Germans/Saxons today

[Lavrentis]

I-haplogroups are not originally Germanic
But they are highly admixed with Germans/Saxons today

I know that I is not originally Germanic, it's common in Sardinia and Western Balkans too. But am I'm asking about the I1 haplogroup

[Rethel]

Some people claim that blonde hair and blue eyes arrived to Europe from Indo-Europeans.

Not some, but it is well established fact. It was known from history,
acheology, papirology, folklore, mummies, chronicles, whatever have
you, and now was confirmed by paleogenetics.


Since the I1 haplogroup is not IE, and it is a Germanic haplogroup

If it is not IE, then cannot be called a germanic also. Is pre-(before)-germanic.


which peaks in a blonde haired-blue eyed population, does it mean that the theory of blonde and blue eyed IE invaders is wrong?[/B]

No, is not.
I1 the oldest common ancestor could live bearly in the times of Ramses III.
Germanic branch is logically younger. At that time Indoeuropeans did dominate
the region since hundrets if not thousands years. Just one guy. Founder effect.
Nothing strange. A local casanova.

[Rethel]

I know that I is not originally Germanic, it's common in Sardinia and Western Balkans too. But am I'm asking about the I1 haplogroup

If it is a part of "I" then logicaly applies to her the same - as Arduti said.

[Lavrentis]

If it is not IE, then cannot be called a germanic also. Is pre-(before)-germanic.

True, my mistake




No, is not.
I1 the oldest common ancestor could live bearly in the times of Ramses III.
Germanic branch is logically younger. At that time Indoeuropeans did dominate
the region since hundrets if not thousands years. Just one guy. Founder effect.
Nothing strange. A local casanova.

So it's not possible that the I1 haplogroup has Indo-European ancestors?

[Ülev]

(...)




So it's not possible that the I1 haplogroup has Indo-European ancestors?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?207511-Happy-I-m-not-R1a

[Rethel]

So it's not possible that the I1 haplogroup has Indo-European ancestors?

No way.
It is a part of OE, the same as I2.
Actualy, I1 was a small clade of I, when 99% of the "I"
was I2 - as a appandix to I2 or even a paraclade of it.

[Lavrentis]

If it is a part of "I" then logicaly applies to her the same - as Arduti said.

Oh, I just mean that since the I found in Sardinia and Balkans is a different branch

[Lavrentis]

No way.
It is a part of OE, the same as I2.
Actualy, I1 was a small clade of I, when 99% of the "I"
was I2 - as a appandix to I2 or even a paraclade of it.

Thanks for the explanation. So you think that Nordics in Scandinavia have IE ancestors, right?

Btw, what does OE stand for?

[Wrong]

Thanks for the explanation. So you think that Nordics in Scandinavia have IE ancestors, right?

Btw, what does OE stand for?
Occidental Europe I presume.

[cosmoo]

A question from a noob:

Some people claim that blonde hair and blue eyes arrived to Europe from Indo-Europeans. Since the I1 haplogroup is not IE, and it is a Germanic haplogroup which peaks in a blonde haired-blue eyed population, does it mean that the theory of blonde and blue eyed IE invaders is wrong?
It is not a mere "claim", it is proven both genetically and anthropologically (for blond hair at least, light eyes were present before IE but also among them).
Pure UP/Mesolithic Europeans were always dark-haired (or red, eventually, but never blond), and earliest sample of blond hair is in Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer from Siberia (Afontova Gora 3). Also, it was frequently found in many IE cultures (Andronovo, Corded Ware, etc.), and is chiefly associated with Nordic type.

On contrary, I1 haplogroup (as part of I-M170) can only be connected to Upper Palaeolithic phenotypes (although haplogroups often do not correlate with phenotypes), and therefore its original bearers were not blond-haired.

[Arduti]

I know that I is not originally Germanic, it's common in Sardinia and Western Balkans too. But am I'm asking about the I1 haplogroup

My dad's I1, we have no German admix but we have North Caucasus and Slavic admix
My particular I1 admix on calculators places me close to several populations: pre-Germanic Norway/Swede, Northwest Russian, & Lezgin/Azeri/Turk

I1s were in Scandinavia before it was even called Scandinavia by Germanic peoples.

And if you're curious, my dad is 6'4, dark-haired, fair-skinned, and grey-eyed.

[Lavrentis]

It is not a mere "claim", it is proven both genetically and anthropologically (for blond hair at least, light eyes were present before IE but also among them).
Pure UP/Mesolithic Europeans were always dark-haired (or red, eventually, but never blond), and earliest sample of blond hair is in Palaeolithic hunter-gatherer from Siberia (Afontova Gora 3). Also, it was frequently found in many IE cultures (Andronovo, Corded Ware, etc.), and is chiefly associated with Nordic type.

On contrary, I1 haplogroup (as part of I-M170) can only be connected to Upper Palaeolithic phenotypes (although haplogroups often do not correlate with phenotypes), and therefore its original bearers were not blond-haired.

Thanks for the reply.

So you think that the Nordic phenotypes in Scandinavia are an Indo-European trait?

[Wrong]

All of the living I1-carriers sprung from one single man 3100 years ago in Scandinavia IIRC.

[Rethel]

Thanks for the explanation. So you think that Nordics in Scandinavia have IE ancestors, right?

Not all, only R1 and women.
Race is of IE provenance, but not all Nordics are IEs.


Btw, what does OE stand for?

Old Europe - central, western, southern and
partialy northern Europe before Indoeuropeans.
(East Europe was fully Indoeuropean)

[Ülev]

All of the living I1-carriers sprung from one single man 3100 years ago in Scandinavia IIRC.

we I1 are the truest Hebrews, not half, semi, Semites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

AM 5778 began at sunset on 20 September 2017 and will end at sunset on 9 September 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253

Possible time of origin 3,170–5,070 BP

[Lavrentis]

but not all Nordics are IEs.

Which Nordics are not IEs?

[Rethel]

light eyes were present before IE but also among them).

It was probably also influenced by IEs - Villabruna, southern France,
Iron Gates, even Ötzi are the proves, that such contacts did happen.
SHG was claimed OE too - I was laughed becasue of claiming it IE
influenced - and now it is officially recognized as such - as a mix.


(or red, eventually,

Nope. It also came with IEs.

[Rethel]

And if you're curious, my dad is 6'4, dark-haired, fair-skinned, and grey-eyed.

And you?

[Rethel]

Which Nordics are not IEs?

Those who are not born IEs.
Speaking or looking is not enaugh.

[Hamlet]

we I1 are the truest Hebrews, not half, semi, Semites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

AM 5778 began at sunset on 20 September 2017 and will end at sunset on 9 September 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253

Possible time of origin 3,170–5,070 BP

Er, how are you the truest Hebrews? (EDIT: That would make it us (Ich bin auch I1)

[Hamlet]

A question from a noob:

Some people claim that blonde hair and blue eyes arrived to Europe from Indo-Europeans. Since the I1 haplogroup is not IE, and it is a Germanic haplogroup which peaks in a blonde haired-blue eyed population, does it mean that the theory of blonde and blue eyed IE invaders is wrong?

The IE invaders would have been blonde, but so would Scandinavians before the Corded Ware expansion. Blonde hair is an ANE trait.

[cosmoo]

Thanks for the reply.

So you think that the Nordic phenotypes in Scandinavia are an Indo-European trait?

Of course, of purely Indo-European inspiration.
In more inaccessible areas (SW Norwegian mountains) you can find more pre-IE (CM) phenotypes.

[Lavrentis]

Blonde hair is an ANE trait.

And ANE stands for?

[Hamlet]

And ANE stands for?

Ancient North Eurasian

Pred. Y DNA R1* and mtDNA U

[Lavrentis]

Those who are not born IEs.
Speaking or looking is not enaugh.

So you mean people like this Iranian mayor? :D

http://montreal2017.metropolis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Teheran-Mohammad-Bagher-Ghalibaf.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Mohammad_Bagher_Ghalibaf_at_Sari_08.jpg

[Hamlet]

So you mean people like this Iranian mayor? :D

http://montreal2017.metropolis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Teheran-Mohammad-Bagher-Ghalibaf.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Mohammad_Bagher_Ghalibaf_at_Sari_08.jpg

Wow, interesting (modified) ancient Aryan type.

[Arduti]

And you?

A mix of mom and dad.

She has green eyes, but I got his grey eyes.
And she's darker, but I got his fair skin too.
They both have dark hair so I have that too.
And I'm only 5'6.

[Sacrificed Ram]

The IE invaders would have been blonde, but so would Scandinavians before the Corded Ware expansion. Blonde hair is an ANE trait.

Corded ware weren't blond and it is proved by genetic test. They should be even darker than current europeans.

[Rethel]

but so would Scandinavians before the Corded Ware expansion.

They were a mix of IEs and local I2s, as I just said previously.

[Rethel]

And ANE stands for?

Annoing Nonsense Ever or Autosomal Non Existing :)

[Hamlet]

Corded ware weren't blond and it is proved by genetic test. They should be even darker than current europeans.

Corded were blonde, you're thinking of the LATE Yamnaya DNA test. Corded spawned from EARLY Yamnaya/maybe even before.

[Hamlet]

They were a mix of IEs and local I2s, as I just said previously.

Before the Corded Ware expansion, there were no Scandinavian IEs...

And also, I1 was there before Corded Ware.

[Rethel]

Ancient North Eurasian

It is a fiction.
They just tested castizo people on the outskirts, where loose
small groups of IE and AmInd hunters were crossing each other.
The core settlement in EE was not ANE at all.

[Rethel]

So you mean people like this Iranian mayor? :D

Why he?

[Rethel]

Wow, interesting (modified) ancient Aryan type.

This one is more interesting... A former minister.

https://i1.wp.com/www.iran-resist.org/local/cache-vignettes/L333xH500/Mohammad-Ali-Ramin-38053.jpg

[Rethel]

A mix of mom and dad.

She has green eyes, but I got his grey eyes.
And she's darker, but I got his fair skin too.
They both have dark hair so I have that too.
And I'm only 5'6.

So you can be indoeuropeanized! :)

[Lavrentis]

Why he?

Because Iranians are neither IE speakers not do they have a lot of IE pheotypes

[Rethel]

Corded were blonde, you're thinking of the LATE Yamnaya DNA test. Corded spawned from EARLY Yamnaya/maybe even before.

Yamna had to be also light.
They just tested some chiftain's kurgans which were
born from caucasian concubines given to their fathers.

[Rethel]

Before the Corded Ware expansion, there were no Scandinavian IEs...

Yes, there was a mix between them, it is allready confirmed.


And also, I1 was there before Corded Ware.

Probably, but hard to say for sure.

[Rethel]

Because Iranians are neither IE speakers not do they have a lot of IE pheotypes

How they are not IE speakers???? :shocked:
And what has to do here phenotype at all?

[Arduti]

So you can be indoeuropeanized! :)

I'm a J2 I seek a J2 man so our kids will have the same mtDNA and yDNA haplogroups
I will have to go to Chechnya I think
lol

[Lavrentis]

How they are not IE speakers???? :shocked:
And what has to do here phenotype at all?

Oh yeah my mistake, they are IE speakers, of the Indo-Iranian branch. My mistake

But you said that not all Nordids are IEs? Which Nordids are not IEs?

[Rethel]

I'm a J2 I seek a J2 man so our kids will have the same mtDNA and yDNA haplogroups
I will have to go to Chechnya I think
lol

You will be rescued... :)

https://img.joemonster.org/mg/albums/new/161110/bad_boys_swiatowej_polityki.jpg

[Rethel]

But you said that not all Nordids are IEs? Which Nordids are not IEs?

These who are not Indoeuropeans.
For example these Oldeuropeans about which we were talking about.

[Lavrentis]

These who are not Indoeuropeans.
For example these Oldeuropeans about which we were talking about.

But they are still racially and genetically close to IE Nordids.

[cosmoo]

I1s were in Scandinavia before it was even called Scandinavia by Germanic peoples.
They came to Scandinavia just before Indo-Europeans, and Germanic identity was formed only after they mixed with Indo-Europeans. But the true natives of Scandinavia (the ones who settled it first after glaciers retreated) were (in order of numerosity) I2a1b, I2a1a-L1287, and I2c-L597, as evident by ancient DNA.


Nope. It also came with IEs.
Not really. One Upper Palaeolithic Goyet sample from Belgium was positive for it, and one Magdalenian period sample had one allele for rufosity as well. Even from anthropology it is perfectly clear that rufosity was originally connected with UP-derived phenotypes, not with IE Nordics.

[Rethel]

But they are still racially and genetically close to IE Nordids.

And what? It is irrelevant, as they are not IEs.

If your neighbour is genetically close to you it doesn;t mean
that you both are members of the same family, do you?


Not really. One Upper Palaeolithic Goyet sample from Belgium was positive for it, and one Magdalenian period sample had one allele for rufosity as well. Even from anthropology it is perfectly clear that rufosity was originally connected with UP-derived phenotypes, not with IE Nordics.


Hard to belive, but if it is true, they also had to be influenced by IEs. It is not natural.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/f7/3f/e4f73f61c6c7014e99ae6cc51ecdcc21.jpg

[Arduti]

You will be rescued... :)

https://img.joemonster.org/mg/albums/new/161110/bad_boys_swiatowej_polityki.jpg

Who will win? Trump or Putin?

[Rethel]

Who will win? Trump or Putin?

Both - against Chechnya.

[cosmoo]

Hard to belive, but if it is true, they also had to be influenced by IEs. It is not natural.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/f7/3f/e4f73f61c6c7014e99ae6cc51ecdcc21.jpg
Why are you mocking native Europeans as being "niggers", when practically every anthropologist ever considered their morphology as perfectly Europoid/Caucasoid? Some kind of complex because your steppe kin is not native here?

[Babak]

Because Iranians are neither IE speakers not do they have a lot of IE pheotypes

Iranians are IE speakers bro

[Lavrentis]

Iranians are IE speakers bro

Yes you're right I just got confused for a second. I fixed my mistake in the previous pages. I don't know why I said this

[Babak]

This one is more interesting... A former minister.

https://i1.wp.com/www.iran-resist.org/local/cache-vignettes/L333xH500/Mohammad-Ali-Ramin-38053.jpg

I know a persian whose taken a ADNA test and her brother looks almost like that. It showed she was native to her land genetically.

[Mortimer]

Europeans are mixed race people and not pure Aryan. Magnus makes fun of indians that they are not pure aryans, here is what i replied


it doesnt matter what their haplogroup was they were not "caucasoid" in the traditional sense, they were dark skinned and out of africa like, they were genetically as much distinct from the farmers as asians are from europeans today. they were not white, the only thing about them white was they had blue eyes.

“You have groups which are as genetically distinct as Europeans and East Asians. And they’re living side by side for thousands of years.”https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/science/dna-deciphers-roots-of-modern-europeans.html

if they were genetically that much distinct they were "different races"

[Rethel]

Why are you mocking native Europeans as being "niggers", when practically every anthropologist ever considered their morphology as perfectly Europoid/Caucasoid?

Bones are not in color... (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?203864-Euroaboriginals-squarely-faced-cronegroaustraloids-C1-and-I-how-they-could-look&p=4679724&viewfull=1#post4679724)


Some kind of complex because your steppe kin is not native here?

I have no problem with nativeness, as people are important, not land.
It is just scientifically established fact, that pre-farmerian Oldeuropeans
were of dark skin - maybe not so dark as negroes, but dark. And I just
showed, that redheadness the same as blueeyesness does not walk in
pair with dark pigmentation - even with swarthiness. And btw, if you
will look everywhere in mixed europe you will see, that even in such
population, light features are mostly bind with other light features.

[Lavrentis]

I know a persian whose taken a ADNA test and her brother looks almost like that. It showed she was native to her land genetically.

This happens with light Afghans too.. they take a DNA test and despite being light in eyes and hair, they come as similar with their dark compatriots

[Rethel]

I don't know why I said this

To win the disscussion :p

[Lavrentis]

To win the disscussion :p

Nah I got confused honestly. Mind fuck

[Rethel]

This happens with light Afghans too.. they take a DNA test and despite being light in eyes and hair, they come as similar with their dark compatriots

Becasue pigmentation is just a small fraction of the whole DNA.

[Lavrentis]

Becasue pigmentation is just a small fraction of the whole DNA.

Yeah but it's interesting how it becomes predominant in some non-Euro individuals

[Babak]

I think light-Irano nordid phenotypes existed before IE invasion tbh.

[Rethel]

Yeah but it's interesting how it becomes predominant in some non-Euro individuals

Normaly: two post-IE recessive genes (who are scattered in whole population) did meet and voila.


I think light-Irano nordid phenotypes existed before IE invasion tbh.

Nope.

[cosmoo]

Bones are not in color... (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?203864-Euroaboriginals-squarely-faced-cronegroaustraloids-C1-and-I-how-they-could-look&p=4679724&viewfull=1#post4679724)



I have no problem with nativeness, as people are important, not land.
It is just scientifically established fact, that pre-farmerian Oldeuropeans
were of dark skin - maybe not so dark as negroes, but dark. And I just
showed, that redheadness the same as blueeyesness does not walk in
pair with dark pigmentation - even with swarthiness. And btw, if you
will look everywhere in mixed europe you will see, that even in such
population, light features are mostly bind with other light features.

And yet again you post picture of a nigger. Do you realize that, even if they were dark-skinned, it does not make them African? An albino nigger is still a nigger no matter how white he is. Morphology matters more.

And secondly, I have already explained this in depth several times. It most probably means their light skin gene is not discovered yet (and in anthropology, UP phenotypes are well-known for light skin which burns easily, which makes no sense if their ancestors were dark as you say). Just look at peoples like Yakuts or Amur Manchus. For Asian standards, they are light-skinned, yet they lack known genes for light skin. Also, look at Orcadians- they are among lightest-skinned Europeans, but they lack known genes for light skin in many cases, and appear genetically as darkest Europeans, even though it is not really the case:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Ala111Thr_allele_frequency_distribution0.png/1280px-Ala111Thr_allele_frequency_distribution0.png

[Babak]

Normaly: two post-IE recessive genes (who are scattered in whole population) did meet and voila.



Nope.

I think they did bro. Nordid phenotypes aren't restricted to a specific location.

Phenotypes ≠ Genetics

[Sacrificed Ram]

Corded were blonde, you're thinking of the LATE Yamnaya DNA test. Corded spawned from EARLY Yamnaya/maybe even before.

According you were they blond, became brunnete and after become blond again (Sintashta/Andronovo)?

[Token]

It is not for nothing that people say that those who are more obsessed with Nordid phenotypes are non-Nordids. The Indoeuropeans were probably very heterogeneous and till we see something that proves a predominance of light-complexion among them we can just suppose, but it's most likely that they were relatively dark compared to modern Europeans above the 45th parallel.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Corded Ware (R1a) tends to be more related with emergence of Balto-Slavics and Indo-Iranics.

The real ethnogenesis of germanics tends to be related with R1b-U106, bronze age people from Center West Europe that supplanted the Hunter-Gatherer/Neolithic Farmers/Bell Beaker/Corded Ware mix in Northern Europe.

https://noelhistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/u-106-map.jpg

[Rethel]

And yet again you post picture of a nigger.

I post a dark person with red hair. This was the point.


Do you realize that, even if they were dark-skinned, it does not make them African?

Yes, did I claim that they were Bantu? No.

[Rethel]

And secondly, I have already explained this in depth several times. It most probably means their light skin gene is not discovered yet (and in anthropology, UP phenotypes are well-known for light skin which burns easily,

Today in mixed population.
Look at Somalis and similar types.
Caucasoids, but are not nordly pigmented.
The samw worked in oppisite side.
Bones structure remained, but colour changed.
Btw, all european and asian regions, where IEs
met huge local population, are still dark.


which makes no sense if their ancestors were dark as you say). Just look at peoples like Yakuts or Amur Manchus. For Asian standards, they are light-skinned,

Nope, they are not. They only seemed to be.

[Finnish Swede]

Finns have one of the highest % of blonds among of all Europeans (if not even the highest), and also one of the lowest % of R1 haplogroup men.
Sounds very interesting combination....based on this tread.

Especially as (together with N1C1 men) Finns have one of the highest % of those I1 men. Some areas (locally) even higher % than founded anywhere from Sweden.

[Rethel]

Finns have one of the highest % of blonds among of all Europeans (if not even the highest), and also one of the lowest % of R1 haplogroup men.
Sounds very interesting combintion....based on this tread.

Especially as (together with N1C1 men) Finns have one of the highest % of those I1 men. Some areas (locally) even higher than anywhere from Sweden.

The same story, and even more interesting, than with I1.
I have been explaining this many times... If you want to
really know, I can write it again at evening...

[Finnish Swede]

The same story, and even more interesting, than with I1.
I have been explaining this many times... If you want to
really know, I can write it again at evening...

I bet you ''can'';)...just wonder will Harkonnen etc. agree with you :icon_ask:

[Sacrificed Ram]

Especially as Finns have one of the highest % of those I1 men.

Are you saying swedes raped a multitude of finn women during Swedish Rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_under_Swedish_rule)?

[Finnish Swede]

Are you saying swedes raped a multitude of finn women during Swedish Rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_under_Swedish_rule)?

??

How you made that kind of conclusion?

Are you saying that all those I1 men in Finland are results of Swedes action between year 1000 and 1700? Damn...those old Swedes men have been veryyy busy guys.

Seriously...if any then Finland's very small R1 haplogroup men are results of Swedes actions, not those I1 men.

[Sacrificed Ram]

??

How you made that kind of conclusion?

Are you saying that all those I1 men in Finland are results of Swedes action between year 1000 and 1700? Damn...those old Swedes men have been veryyy busy guys.

Seriously...if any then Finland's very small R1 haplogroup men are results of Swedes actions, not those I1 men.

I'm joking. The yDNA distribution of finns is compatible with yDNA distribution in Saamis. Despite the intrusion of I1 among saami is dated from 1400AD...

But as I said in previous post the Nordogermanic mark yDNA is R1b-U106.

[LLWW334]

Germanics are basically mix of indo-european R1b-U106 and paleo-european I1.
R1b-U106 and I1 are equally Germanic haplogroups.

[Ilma]

They were probably the very first indigenous population of Europe, a mix between Cromagnons and Neanderthals. CM are always presented as pretty dark (skin, hair, eyes) and Neanderthals as lighter (redheads, light skin etc).

The blond and blue eyed genes are often described as resulting from a mutation to adapt the climate (cold, less light to pick Vit D etc). They maybe BECAME blond and blue eyed but were probably not formerly looking that light before.

BTW about the Indo-Europeans appearance I have no clue.


As of 2015, the earliest light eyes and light hair of hominid (Homo sapiens) individuals after the long extinct Neanderthals have been documented in 8,000-year-old remains in Motala, Sweden, belonging to subclades of Haplogroup I2 and mitochondrial Haplogroup U5. An I2a1 carrier was a carrier of red hair and others of genes of blond/light hair, while all the Motala hunter-gatherers were light-skinned and blue-eyed males. (Light-skin genes, but not those for blond/red hair, have been found in Siberia on a 17,000-year-old carrier of Haplogroup R*, as well as 8,000–9,000-year-old R1a remains from Karelia.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

[LLWW334]

I forgot, R1a-Z284 is also Germanic haplogroup but for some reason R1a-Z284 is present only in Scandinavia and in other Germanic countries almost does not exist.
I1 migrated from Scandinavia to the south and in British islands but R1a-Z284 is mostly stay in Scandinavia.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Germanics are basically mix of indo-european R1b-U106 and paleo-european I1.
R1b-U106 and I1 are equally Germanic haplogroups.

Between paleo europeans and germanics, you have, mesolithics, neolithics, megalithics, bell beakers, corded ware, celts, even baltics and finno-uralics.

[Ilma]

I forgot, R1a-Z284 is also Germanic haplogroup but for some reason R1a-Z284 is present only in Scandinavia and in other Germanic countries almost does not exist.
I1 migrated from Scandinavia to the south and in British islands but R1a-Z284 is mostly stay in Scandinavia.

R-L48 is also a germanic haplo, formerly from Doggerland as I read.

[Finnish Swede]

I'm joking. The yDNA distribution of finns is compatible with yDNA distribution in Saamis. Despite the intrusion of I1 among saami is dated from 1400AD...

But as I said in previous post the Nordogermanic mark yDNA is R1b-U106.

I would say there is clear link between Finns and Samis...or even more....a cross point, but their today's halogroups are not the same. Even less their whole genetics. And Finns I1 is old....for example Gothland Island (Sweden) first people has been said to be much more like old Finns, than Swedes.

Anyway...what comes to Samis...yes...they are interesting. First of all they differs a lot from rest of world's artic people. Their backrund is different...especially quite many of Samis women (mtDNA) ... having clear link to Europe. For some reasons Norweigian Samis are more closely to Finland's Samis than Sweden's Samis.

[Sacrificed Ram]

And Finns I1 is old....

None I1 is old, this haplogroup emerged from a guy living in current Dannmark 3000 years ago.

[Finnish Swede]

None I1 is old, this haplogroup emerged from a guy living in current Dannmark 3000 years ago.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

Populations on those days were much smaller in North Europe than South Europe (still are)...''old'' for North.

[Linebacker]

The I male haplogrouops (because there is I mtDna too which is not the same) are Cro-Magnon derrived haplos.They are from native Europeans that pre-dated IE and Neolithic migrations.

[Root]

I'm a J2 I seek a J2 man so our kids will have the same mtDNA and yDNA haplogroups
I will have to go to Chechnya I think
lol






PM me your picture ;p

[Rethel]

As of 2015, the earliest light eyes and light hair of hominid (Homo sapiens) individuals after the long extinct Neanderthals have been documented in 8,000-year-old remains in Motala, Sweden, belonging to subclades of Haplogroup I2 and mitochondrial Haplogroup U5. An I2a1 carrier was a carrier of red hair and others of genes of blond/light hair, while all the Motala hunter-gatherers were light-skinned and blue-eyed males. (Light-skin genes, but not those for blond/red hair, have been found in Siberia on a 17,000-year-old carrier of Haplogroup R*, as well as 8,000–9,000-year-old R1a remains from Karelia.)

This population was a mix between Indoeuropeans from the east and local
Oldeuropeans, as I was saying from always, and as last tests confirmed.
Was even thread about it.

[Sacrificed Ram]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

Populations on those days were much smaller in North Europe than South Europe (still are)...''old'' for North.

The Eupedia has weird dates for I1, but says that I1 in Finns and Saamis is of different subclade than swedes/norses.

[Finnish Swede]

The Eupedia has weird dates for I1, but says that I1 in Finns and Saamis is of different subclade than swedes/norses.

Like I said Finns did't get their I1 from ''Scandinavians''. Atleast not in any bigger scale.

Samis?...they most likely got it from Finns.

[Rethel]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?202601-INDOEUROPEICS-everything-about-Indoeuropeans-(what-doesn-t-fit-to-other-threads)&p=4639557&viewfull=1#post4639557

Assuming, that proportions of hgs in Scandia when
the oldest common I1 and N1 were born were the
same (exept those two of course) then the result
would be as such. Now you know, why they are so
white having effectivly founded two foreign clades.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=67472&d=1505240226

[cosmoo]

They were probably the very first indigenous population of Europe, a mix between Cromagnons and Neanderthals. CM are always presented as pretty dark (skin, hair, eyes) and Neanderthals as lighter (redheads, light skin etc).
Total nonsense. CM are themselves in first place traditionally regarded as either Neanderthal-sapiens mix or as purely evolved Neanderthals (as their lithic industry is merely refinement of Neanderthal one, and tools of purely Mousterian tradition were found even in Mesolithic).
As for Neanderthals, there is no proof at all that they were light haired or eyed.


The blond and blue eyed genes are often described as resulting from a mutation to adapt the climate (cold, less light to pick Vit D etc). They maybe BECAME blond and blue eyed but were probably not formerly looking that light before.
Hair and eye pigmentation have no correlation to climate whatsoever.
And not only those Motala samples you posted were not fully blond, but climate in Scandinavia was very mild back then (later in that period milder than today), nowhere near the climate of Upper Palaeolithic, when dark hair and eyes were the norm.


R-L48 is also a germanic haplo, formerly from Doggerland as I read.
Doggerland was sunken long before L48 was formed, and it was also far too northwest for any R1 bearers in that time. Most of the samples tested living near that area in times Storegga Slides happened were I2a1b.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Samis?...they most likely got it from Finns.

No, this shall be vestige of a population that existed there before the arrival of finno-ugric/uralic speaker N1c yDNA people.

[Finnish Swede]

No, this shall be vestige of a population that existed there before the arrival of finno-ugric/uralic speaker N1c yDNA people.

The oldest marks of humans are about 11 000years old in Finland (soon after Ice age), the oldest marks of finno-ugric language is less than half that old.
But those people between 11 000 years ago to 5000-4000years ago...were not Samis either.

Samis probable leaft from Spain and Ukraine about 9500 years ago and arrived to Finland much much later.

[Grab the Gauge]

As for Neanderthals, there is no proof at all that they were light haired or eyed.

There is now.


Total nonsense. CM are themselves in first place traditionally regarded as either Neanderthal-sapiens mix or as purely evolved Neanderthals (as their lithic industry is merely refinement of Neanderthal one, and tools of purely Mousterian tradition were found even in Mesolithic).


LOL they were not "traditionally" regarded as such by anyone except Carleton Coon, who later completely renounced the idea.

There are no purely Mousterian tools in the Mesolithic, their lithic industry wasn't a refinement of the Mousterian.

Traditionally, people like you were put in a straightjacket and beaten with nightsticks in the insane asylum.

[DarknessWin]

Oh, I just mean that since the I found in Sardinia and Balkans is a different branch

Dont speak with Rethel, he is clueless.
I1,I2,EV13,J2,R1a and R1b all of them were part of Indoeuropean people

[DarknessWin]

Not all, only R1 and women.
Race is of IE provenance, but not all Nordics are IEs.



Old Europe - central, western, southern and
partialy northern Europe before Indoeuropeans.
(East Europe was fully Indoeuropean)

Not all, only R1 and women.
:picard2::picard1:

Someone please ban this idiot from TA
Father is not Indoeuropean but his Daughter is indoeuropean but also her brothers are not indoeuropeans... LOL

And something else, if only R1 are indoeuropeans then why you keep posting images of Nordic looking people???
Spanish people are the more R1 in the world.
So Indoeuropeans must be AtlantoMed looking people and not Nordic

[Rethel]

I1,I2,EV13,J2,R1a and R1b all of them were part of Indoeuropean people

Following this, whole alphabet is. So, what is the sense of it? :picard2:
And soon every single man on earth - becasue soon all will be speaking IE language.

[cosmoo]

There is now.
No, there isn't.


LOL they were not "traditionally" regarded as such by anyone except Carleton Coon, who later completely renounced the idea.

There are no purely Mousterian tools in the Mesolithic, their lithic industry wasn't a refinement of the Mousterian.
http://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-9345_1973_num_1_1_902
From this point of view the Upper Palaeolithic blade technique is merely a refinement of the Levallois point and blade techniques.
-Hitoshi Watanabe

Even more interest, if possible, than that aroused by the discovery of the Fosna culture was caused by Nummedal’s investigations in Finnmark in the years from 1925—35 which led to the discovery of the culture which has been given the name Komsa culture after a particular locality, or, in connection with French archaeological nomenclature “Le Finnmarkien”. Like the Fosna culture, the Komsa culture is also characterized by implements of carved stones with a hard structure similar to flint without any admixture of slate. But the technique as well as the shape of the implements reveal a more primitive character than those of the Fosna culture and in details they are very like those of the Palaeolithic cultures in Europe. As Nummedal stated in his first report on the Komsa finds, they contain implements from practically all the periods from Mousterian to Magdalenian inclusively.
-Coon


Traditionally, people like you were put in a straightjacket and beaten with nightsticks in the insane asylum.
Buttblasted Angloshit is buttblasted.

[Grab the Gauge]

No, there isn't.


Yes there is, it's in a new thread posted in the genetics section here. Go check it out, look forward to watching you spazz out as a Negroid.


http://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-9345_1973_num_1_1_902
From this point of view the Upper Palaeolithic blade technique is merely a refinement of the Levallois point and blade techniques.
-Hitoshi Watanabe


This is a fringe idea (just an opinion of some guy) and only concerns the production of blades themselves. Neanderthals never had the prismatic core technology of Aurignacian flint knappers. They never had systematic production of specialized burins, bone points, hafted drills, perforations in bone produce by drilling alone, etc. We also know for sure that the Aurignacian came before the European Chatelperronian, which you will undoubtedly start barking about next.

Furthermore, Levallois isn't something that is restricted to Neanderthals. Early modern humans had a Levallois industry in the Levant. There was a Levallois industry in Africa as well, and we don't know if it was modern humans knapping Levallois points in the Amud cave or not. The "Neanderthals" from Amud cave show evidence of modern human admixture.


Even more interest, if possible, than that aroused by the discovery of the Fosna culture was caused by Nummedal’s investigations in Finnmark in the years from 1925—35 which led to the discovery of the culture which has been given the name Komsa culture after a particular locality, or, in connection with French archaeological nomenclature “Le Finnmarkien”. Like the Fosna culture, the Komsa culture is also characterized by implements of carved stones with a hard structure similar to flint without any admixture of slate. But the technique as well as the shape of the implements reveal a more primitive character than those of the Fosna culture and in details they are very like those of the Palaeolithic cultures in Europe. As Nummedal stated in his first report on the Komsa finds, they contain implements from practically all the periods from Mousterian to Magdalenian inclusively.


All Coon is saying (and Coon was a crackhead) is that these people had hand axes (really simple item) that resembled Mousterian handaxes. In this sense, everyone is a Mousterian Neanderthal (or Homo Erectus). Native Americans are Neanderthals. Australian Aboriginals are Neanderthals.

Check it out, there was a literal Levallois Mousterian technocomplex in Canada and at Mal'ta-Buret 20,000 years ago:


https://books.google.com/books?id=-hWiY5mF1ZYC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=levallois+mal%27ta+buret&source=bl&ots=EQLyAC39PB&sig=iMv9sNkbC6YcXbzhURqV1I5gUMU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSxoaq3dvWAhVB3IMKHZZRCvMQ6AEIcTAM#v=on epage&q=levallois%20mal'ta%20buret&f=false

Haha, looks like your faggot ancestors got run over by the TRUE Neanderthals!!! Proto-Indo European specimens do have more Neanderthal DNA than European aboriginals of the same time period:



DNA was extracted from one of the teeth of Afontova Gora 3 and analyzed.[12] Compared to Afontova Gora 2, researchers were able to obtain higher coverage genomes from Afontova Gora 3.[12] DNA analysis confirmed that the individual was female.[12] mtDNA analysis revealed that Afontova Gora 3 belonged to Haplogroup R1b.[12] Around 2.9-3.7% of the genome was Neanderthal in origin.[12]


Buttblasted Angloshit is buttblasted.

Crybaby SouthSlav can't admit he's a nigger descended from defeated, inferior males.

[DarknessWin]

Following this, whole alphabet is. So, what is the sense of it? :picard2:
And soon every single man on earth - becasue soon all will be speaking IE language.

Its not the speaking IE language people , its the old Indoeuropeans.
For example most of Mycenaeans were J2 over 40%

Dont come and tell me that Myceneans were not Indoeuropeans because they was.
Myceneans were forefathers of Spartans so Spartans was also J2 in majority

[Babak]

They were probably the very first indigenous population of Europe, a mix between Cromagnons and Neanderthals. CM are always presented as pretty dark (skin, hair, eyes) and Neanderthals as lighter (redheads, light skin etc).

The blond and blue eyed genes are often described as resulting from a mutation to adapt the climate (cold, less light to pick Vit D etc). They maybe BECAME blond and blue eyed but were probably not formerly looking that light before.

BTW about the Indo-Europeans appearance I have no clue.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

^This