Teribus - Odinism in Border Ballads!??!

[Osweo]

Reading this ever so slightly over-enthusiastic little article;
http://odinicriteofaustralia.wordpress.com/odinism-in-the-border-ballads/
I read the following;

In their isolated fastnesses the borderers kept alive many elements of an earlier Anglo-Saxon culture that had been suppressed elsewhere. It is no coincidence that the only Odinist song known from the Anglo-Saxon pre-Christian era, Teribus, survived in precisely this region.
:eek:

WTF? I said to myself. What's he on about?! So I went looking...

Here's the tune at least
B3rw4I64Hx8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3rw4I64Hx8&feature=related

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teribus_ye_teri_odin

Teribus ye teri odin or teribus an teriodin ([ˈtirɪbəs ən ˈtiri ˈodɪn]) is popularly believed to have been the war cry of the men of Hawick at the Battle of Flodden Field,[1] and still preserved in the traditions of the town.[2] The full chorus of the Border ballad Teribus ye teri odin is often sung at festive gatherings, not only in the gallant old border town itself, but in the remotest districts of Canada, the United States and Australia, wherever Hawick men ("Teris"), and natives of the Scottish Border congregated to keep up the remembrance of their native land, and haunts of their boyhood.[3]

"Teribus ye teri odin
Sons of heroes slain at Flodden
Imitating Border bowmen
Aye defend your rights and common"
The full version of the Border ballad written by James Hogg in 1819,[4] which replaced an earlier one by Arthur Balbirnie used a generation earlier,[5][6] is still sung at the Hawick Common Riding in June of every year.
Okay. So far, so good...

then;

Attempts have been made to connect the phrase teribus an teriodin with the names of the Scandinavian and Norse gods, Thor and Odin from the Old English Týr hæbbe us, e Týr e Oðinn "May [the god] Tyr keep us, both Tyr and Odin", an unlikely explanation since the gods' names are given in their Old Norse forms, not the Old English Tiw and Wodan and the normal phonological development would not result in the modern pronunciation, apart from that, the survival of a supposed Old English sentence in its near original form for more than 700 years is barely conceivable.[7]
:eek: WHAT?!?! :rolleyes2:

Charles Mackay described the ballad, of which these mysterious words form the burden, is one of patriotic "defence and defiance" against foreign invaders and suggested that the phrase is a corruption, or phonetic rendering, of the Scottish Gaelic "Tìr a buaidh, 's tìr a dìon" meaning "Land of victory & land of defence".[8]
:chin: Perhaps...

It has also been suggested that the phrase is a series of vocables imitating the sound of a march played on drums and bagpipes.[9]
:thumb001: Gets my vote!

Alistair Moffat suggests in Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms (1999) that the phrase was originally the Welsh "Tir y Bas y Tir y Odin," meaning "The Land of Death, the Land of Odin".
I know several people here, including myself, have spent good money on Moffat's books. I was pretty dissatisfied with the one I got 'Sea Kingdoms', seeing it as shoddy anti-English Celtomaniac nonsense, but THIS really underlines the man's IDIOCY. :tsk:

References to the "war cry" teribus an teriodin do not appear much before the early 19th century.[9]


:ohwell:

[Grumpy Cat]

http://odinicriteofaustralia.wordpress.com/odinism-in-the-border-ballads/

Aaaaaand I stopped reading about there. :p

I even turned into a cat:

http://ademelani.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/sleeping-cat.jpg

And fell asleep.

[Magister Eckhart]

Attempts have been made to connect the phrase teribus an teriodin with the names of the Scandinavian and Norse gods, Thor and Odin from the Old English Týr hæbbe us, e Týr e Oðinn "May [the god] Tyr keep us, both Tyr and Odin", an unlikely explanation since the gods' names are given in their Old Norse forms, not the Old English Tiw and Wodan and the normal phonological development would not result in the modern pronunciation, apart from that, the survival of a supposed Old English sentence in its near original form for more than 700 years is barely conceivable.

Never one to defend the Odinic Rite on any grounds, the above has some serious problems with its dismissal.

First of all, with the massive amounts of Norse influence on Northern England and lowland Scotland, is it really that hard to believe that they'd use Norse forms? The author here (because when I think "accurate and trustworthy", I think "wikipedia") is also very clearly ignoring the way Scots is used. It doesn't need to be Old English survival to become Tyr 'ab us a Tyr a Odin (the common Scots today is "hiv" or "hae", but can be used in other less common forms such as "hav" "haev" or "hib", depending on the speaker and his origin, while "and" is "an" or "a" in certain places).

Secondly, this: "the survival of a supposed Old English sentence in its near original form for more than 700 years is barely conceivable" is pure conjecture and opinion, and worthless as factual commentary. Forms can survive for thousands and thousands of years completely unchanged, and this form is "near original", meaning it's probably changed as much as most expressions from one language to another. Is it really so inconceivable that Latin forms like "et cetera" have reached us completely unaltered after millennia of use?

Furthermore, what in the name of all the Gods is "normal phonological development"? You can tell me now exactly how my great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren will speak? If I were the author of this article I might refrain from using any words like "inconceivable", "improbable", "impossible", or "unlikely".

I'd also like to add that "References to the "war cry" teribus an teriodin do not appear much before the early 19th century" doesn't even belong in the article. "Do not appear much" and "do not appear" are two utterly different things. How much does it appear, where (geographically) and who referenced it? These are the makings of a scholarly article on the subject and until those questions can be answered, commentary on how often it was referenced as a thinly veiled attempt to make it into some kind of half-baked 19th century invention are poorly done.

All that said, I'm still somewhat wary to say that Tyr and Odin appear in a Scots song, but if these strawmen are the only things standing up against the Odinic Rite's claims, I think I might lean, to my chagrin, toward the OR's claim.

[Osweo]

Never one to defend the Odinic Rite on any grounds, the above has some serious problems with its dismissal.
First of all, the Australian OR seems to be just this particular feller's own little thing. Unaffiliated, so to speak.

Secondly, everyone knows wikipaedia is shite, but it's at least quick and easy. The contributor there phrased everything rather badly, but at least acquainted us with the general array of opinions.

First of all, with the massive amounts of Norse influence on Northern England and lowland Scotland, is it really that hard to believe that they'd use Norse forms?
Hawick is solidly in Bernicia. That part of the Borders up to Lothian, and into England on the east coast down to the Tees, is the least Scandinavianised part of the North of Britain. No way are you going to get Tyr and Odin in that part of the Borders.

If it were Dumfriesshire or Galloway, it would be slightly different, but the names would not have survived without knowledge of what they represented. They would have been far more garbled.

Let's look at a REAL example of what happened to such names in English;

This hill is in the northernmost part of Yorkshire, the Konungrik of Jorvik;
http://www.nyebaleague.co.uk/images/Roseberry%20Topping.jpg
http://www.newfocusphoto.com/images/roseberry_topping.jpg
http://www.freefoto.com/images/1051/68/1051_68_3---Roseberry-Topping--North-York-Moors--Yorkshire_web.jpg?&k=Roseberry+Topping%2C+North+York+Moors%2C+Yorkshi re

In 1119 it was still known as Othenesberg.

NOWADAYS, it's known as Roseberry Topping!

It got that way through a grinding down to something like Osbergh, and probably having the preposition 'Under' shoved in front - the last R ending up prostheticised onto the then meaningless (to the locals) O...

Godspel > Gospel is a good parallel for the loss of the dental involved.

Secondly, this: "the survival of a supposed Old English sentence in its near original form for more than 700 years is barely conceivable" is pure conjecture and opinion, and worthless as factual commentary. Forms can survive for thousands and thousands of years completely unchanged, and this form is "near original", meaning it's probably changed as much as most expressions from one language to another. Is it really so inconceivable that Latin forms like "et cetera" have reached us completely unaltered after millennia of use?
The Latin phrase is a learned introduction, spread among us commoners only in the last half century or so.

English (including its Scotch variants) has really been through the mill in the last millennium. There's a village I know called Wulfardisworthy, which is how it's spelt on the map. In Saxon times it was Wulfheardesworthig. It's local pronunciation now is 'Wulzery'. Alverdiscott is likewise 'Alscot'.

Song and rhymes are great for preserving stuff, of course, even long after the meaning is lost, but the same tendencies apply there too. Hickory Dickery Dock is quite a long way from its original Wyth Naw Deg, for instance.

Furthermore, what in the name of all the Gods is "normal phonological development"? You can tell me now exactly how my great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren will speak?
It's not a predictive tool. But we CAN look at how things have changed in the past, and apply the same tendencies to phrases for which there is less evidence.

All that said, I'm still somewhat wary to say that Tyr and Odin appear in a Scots song, but if these strawmen are the only things standing up against the Odinic Rite's claims, I think I might lean, to my chagrin, toward the OR's claim.

Forget all that, and come back to the essential matter: We have a song, with a meaningless refrain. There is little reason to see the actual form of it as anything more significant than 'down a down hey down' or 'hey nonny non' or 'fal de ral looral lye ey'.

Actually, it's redolent of 'tirrum tirrum' 'tiddly dum'. Perfect onomatopaeia for drum rolls. :shrug:

It's a shame I could n't find a sung version. Anyone care to look harder?

[Osweo]

It's a shame I could n't find a sung version. Anyone care to look harder?
At last!
OxNZXJkU6Ns

[Wulfhere]

In the middle of Wednesbury (which, of course, is not far from Wednesfield), Staffordshire, on top of the large hill that dominates the town, is a pub called The Woden. A few years ago the local Pagans decided it would be a perfect place for a moot, which they decided to hold on Tuesdays. I asked them why they didn't choose Wednesdays instead, and they said, and I quote, "Oh, we didn't think of that..."