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Scholarios
10-25-2017, 11:43 AM
http://www.tiranatimes.com/?p=133993

TIRANA, Oct. 2 – One of the most renowned and active Albanologists of the past three decades, German-Canadian Robert Elsie has passed away, leaving behind a legacy with over sixty books and countless articles, mostly devoted to Albanian studies.

Elsie is reported to have died in Bonn, Germany, of natural causes at the age of 67, in a premature death that is a big blow for Albanian studies and their international promotion.

Born in Canada and having studied and worked in Germany, Elsie’s first contact with Albania came in the late 1970s when the Linguistics Institute of the University of Bonn had rare and privileged contacts with the then-hermetic “People’s Socialist Republic of Albania” which he visited for several years.

“These annual trips to Albania in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and travel in neighbouring Kosovo awakened in him a passion for the exotic country and its little-known culture,” according to a bio published on his website, until recently regularly updated with his latest publications.

Elsie’s publications in English and German primarily focused on Albanian literature, folk culture and history as well as photography.

Probably his most ambitious literary publication was the English translation from the northern Albanian Gheg dialect of the great literary epic of Father Gjergj Fishta (1871-1940), The Highland Lute: The Albanian National Epic, London 2005, a work in thirty cantos and 15,613 lines. The revival of this epic, long banned under the communist regime, was received with great enthusiasm, in particular in northern Albania.

Back in 2013, former Albanian President Bujar Nishani awarded Elsie the “Gratitude Medal” as one of the most prominent Albanologists who for more than 30 years contributed to the international promotion of Albanian culture, language, literature and history.

In a public appeal following the writer’s death, Netherlands-based Albanian writer Flutura Açka unveiled her friend Robert Elsie’s will was to rest in Albania, calling on the Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama and Culture Minister Mirela Kumbaro to make his last wish come true.

The writer described Elsie’s death as the departure of a man who loved Albania like no other foreigner and one of the biggest losses for Albanian culture.

The Albanian and Kosovo Academy of Sciences also hailed Elsie’s contribution to Albanian studies.

“Throughout more than three decades Robert Elsie became an emblematic figure of contemporary Albanology developed in Europe and around the world. Although a freelance researcher, he developed scientific activity comparable to an institution,” said the Albanian Academy of Science.

“Robert Elsie among others also served as a fruitful and successful bridge for the double and mutual promotion of the Albanian people’s spiritual legacy, as a translator of literature, epic of legendary songs and scientific literature from Albanian language into English and German on the one hand, and as a translator of the most important works and studies on foreign 19th and 20th Albanologists from their source languages into Albanian and English,” the Kosovo Academy said in a statement.

The Kosovo Academy of Sciences, where Elsie had been an associate for the past 17 years, described his premature loss as irreplaceable.

“Robert Elsie is one of the most prominent Albanologists of our era, a researcher of Albanian language, literature, history and tradition, a translator, archive and early documents researcher spanning from linguistic, historical to latest developments in Albanian art and culture,” said the Kosovo Academy of Science.

Culture Minister Mirela Kumbaro said she was devastated by Elsie’s premature departure whom she described as a “born and not titled academic.”

“We were born Albanians, passion made you Albanian,” she wrote.

Albanian art critic Agim Baci said Albanians are today better known thanks to Elsie’s works.

“Elsie took care of the Albanian and Kosovo historical dictionaries, Albanian myths and tales, or renowned authors such as Fishta, Poradeci, Podrimja and Migjeni to speak and be published in English,” he wrote.



Robert Austin*: Elsie was by far the most prolific scholar

“To say I am saddened by the death of Robert Elsie is an understatement. The community of scholars devoted to the study of Albania and Albanians is a small and devoted one. Elsie was by far the most prolific. His contributions were always seminal. Indeed, you cannot study Albania without engaging with his wonderful scholarship. We were last together with other friends to celebrate 100 years of Albanian independence. What a time we had. The scene was the usual one: a conference with friends; Korça food and home-made Raki. My last correspondence with Robert was in 2016. It was related to my comments on Blendi Fevsiu’s book on Enver Hoxha. Robert was his usual upbeat self and understood my then frustration with politics (and politicians) in Albania in Kosovo. He was worried that I was drifting from Albanian studies. He wrote, Don’t give up on them entirely!” I took his advice. Coming from him, it meant a lot.”

Robert Austin (PhD, University of Toronto) is a specialist on East, Central and Southeastern Europe in historic and contemporary perspective. He is also a senior associate fellow of the Albanian Institute for International Studies.

Trilecce
10-27-2017, 12:16 AM
Thank you Scholario for mentioning this, his death went completely unnoticed by these albanians hypnotised by their trolling in this forum, and not even a sign of recognition on this thread... I have had mail conversations with Robert, and I felt the loss in my being. He is the single greatest loss for albanians of modern times. And it couldnt have come in a worse moment since albanology is at a watershed moment. Albanologists have found new material from 12th century written in albanian in the vaticans libraries, and his commentaries on them would have been priceless. However he has left us with much, and sadly i dont think anyone can fill his shoes in my lifetime.

Visit his site, its great fun for anyone interested in albanians.
http://www.elsie.de/index.htm

Trilecce
10-27-2017, 12:36 AM
Pictures of his funeral.

https://scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22519193_356006434839580_8435961297672405869_n.jpg ?oh=dd28bba90d3c2d0ed2a6c9080e16a676&oe=5A7F699E
https://scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22519423_356006428172914_7695987103345295900_n.jpg ?oh=91e18e7b56ff1509d689b37cb94aa0c7&oe=5A679D7C
https://scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22519103_356006431506247_1321227181503764009_n.jpg ?oh=806df598cf380d4c6252db46c785ee02&oe=5A71AD85


His last wish was to be buried in Theth, Northern Albania. The Urheimat of albanians.
https://scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22539701_356006598172897_8751660224685485046_n.jpg ?oh=012ffa4bca1d43b2fa67a60358a7a649&oe=5A79EC3F
https://scontent.fgse1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22519266_1516673445079698_1606320675371556976_n.jp g?oh=58761e3c67f7487a42de0c7c2b61cea9&oe=5AADA6D8

May he rest in peace, and may his name live with every single albanian.

Arjana
10-28-2017, 02:13 PM
Elsie was a good man, but he was never an albanolog.

He was an admirer of albanian culture and language and has done great works in translating in english the old albanian epics ( which are in UNESCO) and the masterpiece of Gjergj Fishta.

Also his site when historical texts about albanians are translated in english as a great work also, together with the map of albanian dialects .

However he was not a scientist.

Real historians and scientists about Albanians would be Georg Von Han, Maximilian Lambertz and Milan Shuflay.

Scholarios
10-29-2017, 02:13 AM
Elsie was a good man, but he was never an albanolog.

He was an admirer of albanian culture and language and has done great works in translating in english the old albanian epics ( which are in UNESCO) and the masterpiece of Gjergj Fishta.

Also his site when historical texts about albanians are translated in english as a great work also, together with the map of albanian dialects .

However he was not a scientist.

Real historians and scientists about Albanians would be Georg Von Han, Maximilian Lambertz and Milan Shuflay.

You misunderstand the word "scientist" in the typical Balkan connotation, with all due respect.

Elsie was surely a professional linguist in the modern sense far ahead of orientalists (though valuable) like Von Han.

Profileid
10-29-2017, 02:19 AM
I didn't hear of him until recently,not long before he died. I read some of his site (http://www.albanianhistory.net) and it was one of the best resources on albanian history I'd ever seen.

Trilecce
10-29-2017, 12:35 PM
Elsie was a good man, but he was never an albanolog.

He was an admirer of albanian culture and language and has done great works in translating in english the old albanian epics ( which are in UNESCO) and the masterpiece of Gjergj Fishta.

Also his site when historical texts about albanians are translated in english as a great work also, together with the map of albanian dialects .

However he was not a scientist.

Real historians and scientists about Albanians would be Georg Von Han, Maximilian Lambertz and Milan Shuflay.The era of nationalromanticism in the 19th century is over. They were cought in the romanticist ideas of the time and can thus not be compared to modern philologists. Elsie is a breath of fresh air, since most albanians (like yourself) still dwell in those romanticist ideas.

Herr Abubu
10-29-2017, 12:43 PM
Elsie was a good man, but he was never an albanolog.

He was an admirer of albanian culture and language and has done great works in translating in english the old albanian epics ( which are in UNESCO) and the masterpiece of Gjergj Fishta.

Also his site when historical texts about albanians are translated in english as a great work also, together with the map of albanian dialects .

However he was not a scientist.

Real historians and scientists about Albanians would be Georg Von Han, Maximilian Lambertz and Milan Shuflay.

I agree. His work in translating texts and putting out documents is very valuable, but his commentary and thoughts not so much. Usually he lacked any particular insight and was wrong on very many things.

Herr Abubu
10-29-2017, 12:47 PM
The era of nationalromanticism in the 19th century is over. They were cought in the romanticist ideas of the time and can thus not be compared to modern philologists. Elsie is a breath of fresh air, since most albanians (like yourself) still dwell in romanticist ideas.

You are even more of a romanticist. Not only in regards to Albanian issues, but in general. I don't know how someone can read Socrates (meaning Plato), take him as normative and be a classical liberal and all that jazz.

Trilecce
10-29-2017, 01:02 PM
You are even more of a romanticist. Not only in regards to Albanian issues, but in general. I don't know how someone can read Socrates (meaning Plato), take him as normative and be a classical liberal and all that jazz.

If you had read Platos works on Sokrates then you would understand how everything ties together. Sokrates may not have been a democrat, but then again Democrat =/= Liberal per se. Sokrates society of guardians is perfectly liberal also.

Herr Abubu
10-29-2017, 01:51 PM
If you had read Platos works on Sokrates then you would understand how everything ties together. Sokrates may not have been a democrat, but then again Democrat =/= Liberal per se. Sokrates society of guardians is perfectly liberal also.

Wrong on everything. Democracy is inherently tied to liberalism and if anything the society put forth in Plato's republic is extremely illiberal. The Guardians of Plato's Republic are also completely contrary to liberal ideals (and reality). There's one country greatly influenced by Plato's concept of the Guardians, and Plato in general, and that's Iran, not known for being a hub of liberalism of any sort.

Trilecce
10-29-2017, 02:28 PM
Wrong on everything. Democracy is inherently tied to liberalism and if anything the society put forth in Plato's republic is extremely illiberal. The Guardians of Plato's Republic are also completely contrary to liberal ideals (and reality). There's one country greatly influenced by Plato's concept of the Guardians, and Plato in general, and that's Iran, not known for being a hub of liberalism of any sort.

Not the thread for this topic, but surely you havent read about Sokrates ideas for yourself. The guardians are no lawgivers or dictators, they are personal counselors, helping you to live a good life. The guardians dont rule through any monopoly on violence. Everyone rules themselves since guardians are stated over and over to not be the type that meddles in the business of people, the guardians have gained their status through true meritocracy, nothing else.
This my friend is the epitome of liberalism.

Herr Abubu
10-29-2017, 02:37 PM
Not the thread for this topic, but surely you havent read about Sokrates ideas for yourself. The guardians are no lawgivers or dictators, they are personal counselors, helping you to live a good life. The guardians dont rule through any monopoly on violence. Everyone rules themselves since guardians are stated over and over to not be the type that meddles in the business of people, the guardians have gained their status through true meritocracy, nothing else.
This my friend is the epitome of liberalism.

This isn't liberalism and there is absolutely not any notion of widespread autonomy in Plato's works. Autonomy is only allowed to the most virtuous, those with golden, divine metal inside of them, as opposed to those with cruder, less noble metals inside of them. Everyone else is subject to strict regulations.

Things like the arts are to be strictly controlled by the state because artists left alone are too dangerous for society. But in fact, because philosophers wouldn't want to lead the state they would have to be forced to do it. You'd have to be absolutely idiotic to see any form of liberalism in this. It doesn't even fit your construed idea of liberalism.

There's a reason liberals have generally seen Plato as an enemy. Everything about Plato is illiberal, from his proto-realist ontology and metaphysics to his politics. That's also why he, and Socrates, were at odds with Athens, a pre-modern modern liberal state.

Trilecce
10-29-2017, 11:03 PM
This isn't liberalism and there is absolutely not any notion of widespread autonomy in Plato's works. Autonomy is only allowed to the most virtuous, those with golden, divine metal inside of them, as opposed to those with cruder, less noble metals inside of them. Everyone else is subject to strict regulations.

Things like the arts are to be strictly controlled by the state because artists left alone are too dangerous for society. But in fact, because philosophers wouldn't want to lead the state they would have to be forced to do it. You'd have to be absolutely idiotic to see any form of liberalism in this. It doesn't even fit your construed idea of liberalism.

There's a reason liberals have generally seen Plato as an enemy. Everything about Plato is illiberal, from his proto-realist ontology and metaphysics to his politics. That's also why he, and Socrates, were at odds with Athens, a pre-modern modern liberal state.

You fail in reading between the lines. Ask yourself, how would you know who is who without having them act out and setting themselves to some sort of measure?
Sokrates says explicitly that ones status in society is not hereditary, but instead you gain it through merit. The classes of guardians, auxiliaries and proles can not be maintained through meritocracy if the intent is to make them unescapable. The classes are informal, they are shaped by culture and not laws. We have these very classes today. But its not the guardians sitting at the top, although very modern times have seen these guardian types take their place as leaders of industry. However in asking Sokrates about the impossibilty of these Guardians taking control he never replied in any other way than saying that it could happen through a special series of events. Those events taking place are intrinsically tied to liberalism, meaning to get rid of the ties we had and still have to hereditary rule and feudalism. To loosen societies monarchic and tribalistic views on rule in order to make it fully meritocratic, which is the end goal of liberalism. This is neither democracy or anything we have ever had in our history. In this fully meritocratic society, guardians would by their very nature alone take their place as leaders of society, without any use of violent enforcements (judicial or military power).

Herr Abubu
10-29-2017, 11:27 PM
You fail in reading between the lines. Ask yourself, how would you know who is who without having them act out and setting themselves to some sort of measure?
Sokrates says explicitly that ones status in society is not hereditary, but instead you gain it through merit. The classes of guardians, auxiliaries and proles can not be maintained through meritocracy if the intent is to make them unescapable. The classes are informal, they are shaped by culture and not laws. We have these very classes today. But its not the guardians sitting at the top, although very modern times have seen these guardian types take their place as leaders of industry. However in asking Sokrates about the impossibilty of these Guardians taking control he never replied in any other way than saying that it could happen through a special series of events. Those events taking place are intrinsically tied to liberalism, meaning to get rid of the ties we had and still have to hereditary rule and feudalism. To loosen societies monarchic and tribalistic views on rule in order to make it fully meritocratic, which is the end goal of liberalism. This is neither democracy or anything we have ever had in our history. In this fully meritocratic society, guardians would by their very nature alone take their place as leaders of society, without any use of violent enforcements (judicial or military power).

I don't fail to read Plato correctly, you simply are a tool. No serious person could read Plato and come to the conclusion that he's a proponent of any form of liberalism, if anything he's strictly against it.

You have an extremely idiosyncratic and particular view of liberalism as well. And it's particularly funny that you'd argue he's a liberal and therefore against monarchy, when Plato puts exactly monarchy as the ideal form of government alongside aristocracy.

If you want to argue that Plato was for a meritocratic state you'd make an extremely vague argument, but the fact that you argue liberalism is inherently meritocratic and that therefore Plato was a liberal is ignorant and a different argument.

Plato's criticisms are consistently against liberalism. There's no argument to make about it. He was against both enfranchisement, license, for most people, who would not use their freedom wisely, and against any notion of equality, where he even claimed the different classes are essentially different.

Plato could be painted as an extremely conservative figure or a sort of communist, both of which have been done with success, but never as a liberal. Whenever he is painted as a sort of liberal or democrat, it's never without flying in the face of everything he ever wrote.

Trilecce
10-30-2017, 01:48 PM
I don't fail to read Plato correctly, you simply are a tool. No serious person could read Plato and come to the conclusion that he's a proponent of any form of liberalism, if anything he's strictly against it.

You have an extremely idiosyncratic and particular view of liberalism as well. And it's particularly funny that you'd argue he's a liberal and therefore against monarchy, when Plato puts exactly monarchy as the ideal form of government alongside aristocracy.

If you want to argue that Plato was for a meritocratic state you'd make an extremely vague argument, but the fact that you argue liberalism is inherently meritocratic and that therefore Plato was a liberal is ignorant and a different argument.

Plato's criticisms are consistently against liberalism. There's no argument to make about it. He was against both enfranchisement, license, for most people, who would not use their freedom wisely, and against any notion of equality, where he even claimed the different classes are essentially different.

Plato could be painted as an extremely conservative figure or a sort of communist, both of which have been done with success, but never as a liberal. Whenever he is painted as a sort of liberal or democrat, it's never without flying in the face of everything he ever wrote.

Communism is the end goal of both liberals and socialists. Liberalism spawned as the first movement to walk away from monarchy and feudalism. The end goal is a society where everyone rules themselves in the best possible way. Dictatorial socialists (communists) believed that humans must be forced to learn to live in a society that does not need any formal rule. The state would then somehow dismantle itself according to Marx (which is impossible btw, no human releases power that they have gained). Liberals believe that people already have in their nature the abilities to live in a flat power structure and that there is no pyramid of power needed.

Now, how would that flat society be like? Thats where Socrates comes in and explains that people are different in ability and therefore through merit, the best amongst us will rise and take their seats as guardians of society. You cant have meritocracy through anything else than a fully liberal society, so it is quite self explanatory that liberalism is the means to achive the state of goodness that Socrates told us about.

You in your mind have something else... this is not a society that has existed before. Its only a dream as of now. But to reach it you must have full meritocracy, and to have full meritocracy you MUST have full liberalism, where every human can compete in anything without being slammed by socioeconomic status, gender or skin color.