Where did the Middle Easterners get their ANE admixture from?

[Leto]

The people of the ME have a significant amount of the ANE. Who brought the admixture to the region?

[Hadouken]

from gedmatch

[Lavrentis]

Romans

[Leto]

Romans
Ancient North Eurasian from the Romans?

[StonyArabia]

Depending on what Middle Easterners you are speaking off?

Bedouins, Egyptians, and Berbers have little if any.

[Lavrentis]

Ancient North Eurasian from the Romans?

I just answered randomly. I didn't knew what ANE was :p Thanks though

[Leto]

Depending on what Middle Easterners you are speaking off?

Bedouins, Egyptians, and Berbers have little if any.
All do and a lot. This is a Saudi:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Natufian 54.71
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.86
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 13.52
4 Sub_Saharan 10.16
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 4.05
6 East_Asian 1.7

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 BedouinA 5.62
2 Palestinian 6.6
3 Jordanian 7.17
4 Saudi 7.33
5 Jew_Yemenite 8.22

[Porn Master]

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1468/90/1468905605509.png

[Kelmendasi]

CHG peoples probably

[Leto]

CHG peoples probably
Yes, I have thought so as well. But I was confused because the Lazaridis studies say the EHGs were different from the WHGs because of that ANE-like admixture and it came to Central and Western Europe with the expansion of Yamnya people. It is clear that the Neolithic ME farmers didn't have any ANE.

[Hadouken]

"Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE): Upper-Paleolithic genomes from the Lake Baikal region of Siberia, identified as Malta, Afontogora 2, and Afontogora 3, dated to 17 to 24 kya, when Mammoths roamed the area, form the ANE cluster."

lol wut :confused: xD

[Danaan]

Scythians, Hurrians, Urartians.

[Kelmendasi]

"Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE): Upper-Paleolithic genomes from the Lake Baikal region of Siberia, identified as Malta, Afontogora 2, and Afontogora 3, dated to 17 to 24 kya, when Mammoths roamed the area, form the ANE cluster."

lol wut :confused: xD
Yh like in the Ice Age movies

[StonyArabia]

All do and a lot. This is a Saudi:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Natufian 54.71
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.86
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 13.52
4 Sub_Saharan 10.16
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 4.05
6 East_Asian 1.7

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 BedouinA 5.62
2 Palestinian 6.6
3 Jordanian 7.17
4 Saudi 7.33
5 Jew_Yemenite 8.22

Interesting. The Berbers often have none it seems. It's probably from ancient times, but it seems the more isolated the group is the less they have it in the ME.

[Leto]

Interesting. The Berbers often have none it seems. It's probably from ancient times, but it seems the more isolated the group is the less they have it in the ME.
Ancient North Eurasian does not mean Northern European. It is a component related to those remnants found in Siberia (between 22,000 and 13,000 BC).

[Gangrel]

"Ancestral North Eurasian (ANE): Upper-Paleolithic genomes from the Lake Baikal region of Siberia, identified as Malta, Afontogora 2, and Afontogora 3, dated to 17 to 24 kya, when Mammoths roamed the area, form the ANE cluster."

lol wut :confused: xD

we wuz mammoth hunters and shit

[Gangrel]

All do and a lot. This is a Saudi:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Natufian 54.71
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.86
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 13.52
4 Sub_Saharan 10.16
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 4.05
6 East_Asian 1.7

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 BedouinA 5.62
2 Palestinian 6.6
3 Jordanian 7.17
4 Saudi 7.33
5 Jew_Yemenite 8.22

What calc again? Gonna chec mine

[Leto]

What calc again? Gonna chec mine
Gedrosia K6.

[Gangrel]

I get 31.69 ANE

[StonyArabia]

I myself have quite bit of it.

[Leto]

This is a Georgian or an Abkhaz:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Natufian 52.86
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 28.8
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 15.21
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.57
5 Sub_Saharan 0.34
6 East_Asian 0.22

Not saying this calc is 100% accurate but he is over 1/4 ANE.

[Hadouken]

mine :

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent

1 Natufian 48.22
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 29.52
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 14.16
4 East_Asian 5.4
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.09
6 Sub_Saharan 0.62

--

öracl


# Population (source) Distance
1 Azeri 2.95
2 Adygei 5.05
3 Turkish 6.2
4 Balkar 6.58
5 Kumyk 6.72
6 Iranian 6.94
7 Chechen 6.99
8 Georgian 7.45
9 Iran_N_WC1 7.68
10 Iran_recent 7.86
11 Kurd_C 8.58
12 Lezgin 8.71
13 Assyrian 8.86
14 Armenia_ChL 9.44
15 Jew_Iranian 9.77
16 Jew_iraqi 9.96
17 Kurd_F 10.28
18 Syrian 10.52
19 Druze 10.85
20 Iranian_Mazandarani 10.96

[Gangrel]

Most South Asian populations get 40+

[Leto]

I am only 18.41%

[Leto]

Most South Asian populations get 40+
Indeed. I've run a Gujarati (?) and he is close to 40%. What the hell?

Kit A251110

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 37.75
2 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 25.97
3 Natufian 24.79
4 East_Asian 11.31
5 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 GujaratiC 3.23
2 GujaratiD 3.43
3 Punjabi_PJL 4.47
4 GujaratiB 6.12
5 GujaratiA 8.45

[Gangrel]

Indeed. I've run a Gujarati (?) and he is close to 40%. What the hell?

Kit A251110

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 37.75
2 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 25.97
3 Natufian 24.79
4 East_Asian 11.31
5 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 GujaratiC 3.23
2 GujaratiD 3.43
3 Punjabi_PJL 4.47
4 GujaratiB 6.12
5 GujaratiA 8.45

Some south asian spreadsheed averages

GujaratiA 40.80
GujaratiB 41.90
GujaratiC 39.20
GujaratiD 38.60
Kalash 41.70
Makrani 41.90
Sindhi 42.10

[Insuperable]

Davidski from Eurogenes


How and when ANE arrived in the Near East is still a mystery which can only be solved with ancient DNA. However, my bet is that most of it came after the Neolithic from the Eurasian steppe, the northeast Caucasus and the Altai, with the Indo-Europeans, Kura-Araxes people and Turks, respectively.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura–Araxes_culture

[de Burgh II]

The topic of ANE intrigued me so I looked deeper into the matter and catalogued it all in this thread if you are interested:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218956-Ancient-North-Eurasian


Ancient North Eurasian is an ancestral component now somewhat common in population genetics... It was originally discovered through the genome of a Siberian boy who died over 20,000 years ago referred to as either Mal'ta boy or MA-1 and was backed up as being a real entity in pre-historic Eurasia through other ancient genomes like that of Afontova Gora-2. [1]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JfsaZ0Arig0/VIwqnsNURuI/AAAAAAAABzA/XqR_3Y4l3y0/s400/2kjz7p.jpg


It's discovery really shook up a lot of things like our understanding of the origins of Europeans, Native Americans and even groups such as Central Asians, South Asians and various West Asians who seem to carry either Ancient North Eurasian or Ancient North Eurasian-related ancestry.

Lazaridis et al. 2013-2014 seemed to suggest that Europeans were basally a three-way mixture between Ancient North Eurasians / MA-1 related peoples, what they dubbed Western European Hunter-Gatherers based on the ancient genomes of various Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers from Europe like Loschbour and then finally Early European Farmers who began entering Europe around the Neolithic from West Asia.

Since then that model's become rather obsolete and has been replaced by one where all of the supposed Ancient North Eurasian ancestry in Europe is owed to the spread of the Indo-European languages by pastoralist peoples from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R-j1EE3RkRU/VVCU6zRqwSI/AAAAAAAACj8/yEeCngMDerg/s1600/Pontic-Caspian%2Bsteppe.jpg


These pastoralists were carrying with them a foray of different ancestries from what looks to be Caucasian-like ancestry rich in what looks to be Ancient North Eurasian-related & West Asian ancestry and what is for now referred to by chaps like Wolfgang Haak of Haak et al. 2015 as "Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers (EHGs)". [2]

EHGs almost fit as a mixture between Ancient North Eurasians & Western European Hunter-Gatherers but instead don't entirely look to be the result of such a mixture. Though as David Wesolowski who runs the Eurogenes genome blog and ancestry project once remarked in the quote below- :

"It depends how you define EHG, ANE and WHG, and the concept of pure components.
They can all be distinct pops, or EHG can be a mix of ANE and WHG, or even WHG can be a mix of EHG and something as yet unsampled."

-it's honestly rather iffy and tricky modeling these pre-historic groups with wildly different time stamps on them (Mesolithic for WHGs and EHGs and Paleolithic for ANEs) as mixtures of one another.

But David seems to assume groups like EHGs and WHGs are likely a mixture between groups that preceded them perhaps like Ancient North Eurasians and some other groups as yet unsampled. The cold hard truth of the matter is that we require more samples of pre-historic Hunter-Gatherer groups across West Eurasia to really understand what EHG and WHG are and how exactly they're connected to ANE because the current models seem inadequate.

It could just be that Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers are somehow extra related to Ancient North Eurasians or somehow partially descended from them and something Western European Hunter-Gatherer related. We'd need more ancient genomes across time and space in Europe and other parts of Eurasia to truly grasp this with any kind of conclusive detail.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-h2ktbF4-z7o/VZNUAIL72iI/AAAAAAAAC48/CWB4aR8R57Q/s1600/Untitled3.png


Click here to view the original image of 734x1043px.


Although one thing is resolved for now... A group of "pure" Ancient North Eurasians didn't come and contribute Ancient North Eurasian ancestry to the ancestors of modern Europeans; this Ancient North Eurasian-related ancestry is ultimately owed to expansions from the Steppe. Whether EHGs are "WHG + ANE" or related to MA-1 in some other way or not.

Though it is worth-noting that the non-EHG and "Caucasian-like" ancestry in Pontic Caspian Steppe pastoralists like the Yamnaya did also carry Ancient North Eurasian-related ancestry and in this case; not seemingly owed to Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer ancestry.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tKgMr5w_FIs/VfWL_Dk0d0I/AAAAAAAADb4/x67i8I5mWNw/s1600/ANE_K8.png

The redder a place or its "outline" is; the richer in ANE-related ancestry it is

In the end though what looks to be Ancient North Eurasian ancestry or Ancient North Eurasian-related like EHG ancestry is found all over Eurasia from Siberia to South Asia or Western Europe to Central Asia. In a modern context it tends to peak in Siberian groups like Kets [3] or various modern South Asians and in West Eurasia peaks in the Caucasus region.

It also really helped redefine our understanding of the origins of Native Americans who like many populations on this planet are now understood not to be some "pure" separate branch of the Homo Sapien Sapien family tree but a mixture of sorts like Europeans. In their case the mixture seems to be between Ancient North Eurasians and East Asian-related ancestry. [4]


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R73Lf_vCVME/VJQv1T_yUoI/AAAAAAAAB2M/Opr2K6gJ714/s1600/pca.png


If I had to quickly dive into where the component stands in Eurasia; it's essentially closest to Eastern & Western European Hunter-Gatherer and seems to share as geneticists suggest; a sort of earlier root with these components like it does with Western European Hunter-Gatherer in that Lazaridis et al. 2013 diagram I shared.

Though as I said; we really need more samples from across Eurasia (West Eurasia, Siberia, Central Asia, South Asia etc.) from various time periods to really understand the true nature of groups like Ancient North Eurasians, Western European Hunter-Gatherers and Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers because as it stands; things stand on somewhat unsure and confused ground.

For all we know; what looks to be non-Steppe derived "ANE" ancestry in groups like South Asians, Central Asians and West Asians may not be owed to some sort of "pure" Ancient North Eurasian group like we once thought was the case for Europeans...

It could instead mean that these groups owe their Ancient North Eurasian-related ancestry to Eurasian Hunter-Gatherer groups somehow related to Ancient North Eurasians or who carry ANE ancestry themselves in some way or other; more ancient DNA analysis is needed... I say this a lot and before this blog post is over will say it again because it can't be emphasized enough.

This uncertainty I highlighted above is essentially why I insist on sometimes writing "Ancient North Eurasian-related ancestry" rather than undoubtedly assuming some of these non-European populations have direct ANE ancestry.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4sII9HRRj6U/VfaSMsrz2mI/AAAAAAAADcI/gFzGWSEmZCM/s1600/Eurasia_%2528orthographic_projection%2529.svg.png


Eurasia

Nevertheless, for the time being what we dub "Ancient North Eurasian" is highly divergent from Western European Hunter-Gatherers despite the seemingly closer relations between ANEs and European Hunter-Gatherers when compared to Eastern Non-African groups, to a point where Native Americans will often seem more similar or closer to Mal'ta boy than Europeans are like in analyses such as IBS:


MA-1 IBS (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1y-MIPZJ0-4tyEp6OxIJ-2MJJJUcDY8RjoU8IS_Vke4k/edit#gid=1764828950)


This being the case despite the fact that the East Asian-related ancestry that makes up the rest of Native Americans' ancestry is less related to Ancient North Eurasians like Mal'ta boy / MA-1 than the European Hunter-Gatherer ancestry in Europeans is, though Europeans might be shifted away a bit by the highly divergent Basal Eurasian component in their West Asian / Near Eastern-related ancestry.


Eurogenes K=8 is a good representation of the levels of Ancient North Eurasian-related ancestry found across various global populations (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=1681484272)

Nevertheless, ANE is a pretty distinct ancestral cluster of its own with what seems to be a very large spread across Eurasia of either ANE or ANE-related ancestry showing up in small amounts even in some East Asian populations as well as somewhat in Egyptians, a Northeast African population.

http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/09/ancient-north-eurasian.html


It would seem ANE is a peculiar case; being highly Central Asian and Steppic (Steppe) in nature. That is surprisingly divergent from East-Eurasian like ancestry and Hunter Gatherer-Eurasian populations. In the case of West Asians specifically Iranic populations are a mish-mash of CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherers), ANE and indigenous farmers/BMAC peoples commonest during ancient West Asia. Whereas Gulf Arabs such as Saudis are pretty much highly Basal Eurasian (>90%). South Asians are a mix between the highly divergent "Eastern Non-African/onge-like population/Ancestral South Eurasian (ASE)" and a Steppic West Asian derivative mix/Ancestral North Indian (ANI) (i.e. "Indo-Aryans") commonest in North Indians.

East Asians; highly isolated population derived through their own natural selection in their own evolution; Eastern Non-African that is simply Eastern Eurasian in nature.

If you wish to inquire more information on it, let me know. :p

[Leto]

Some south asian spreadsheed averages

GujaratiA 40.80
GujaratiB 41.90
GujaratiC 39.20
GujaratiD 38.60
Kalash 41.70
Makrani 41.90
Sindhi 42.10
That's a freaking LOT. Over 1/3.

[Leto]

The topic of ANE intrigued me so I looked deeper into the matter and catalogued it all in this thread if you are interested:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218956-Ancient-North-Eurasian



http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/09/ancient-north-eurasian.html



If you wish to inquire more information on it, let me know. :p
Great stuff, man. I've read it all. Basically the CHGs had ANE independently from the EHGs. Perhaps there was a gene flow from the Caucasus to the Levant.

[Kelmendasi]

Great stuff, man. I've read it all. Basically the CHGs had ANE independently from the EHGs. Perhaps there was a gene flow from the Caucasus to the Levant.
Many CHG groups seem to have migrated into the middle east and Levant, as shown by haplogroups like J1(J1 was also present in the EHG peoples as shown by a J1 hunter gatherer found in Mesolithic Karelia/Russia) and J2 which are originally CHG haplogroups but now are common in the Middle east

[XenophobicPrussian]

Levantines/North Africans/Gulf Arabs got it from Persians/Caucasus people(not the specific cultures, but the land masses). Lots of historical movement between Persia/etc and the Levant.

Where the Hunter Gathers in the Caucasus and Iran got ANE is up for debate(neolithic Iran had ANE too). Could be either people from Siberia/Central Asia/Eastern Europe moved down there and mixed with the Natufian natives or ANE-like people were native to Iran/the Caucasus and Natufians migrated there and mixed with them.