Pre-European Canary Islands DNA

[Smeagol]

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31257-5?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982217312575%3Fshowall%3Dt rue
Highlights:
•The first genome-wide data from the Guanches confirm a North African origin
•The Guanches were genetically most similar to modern North African Berbers
•Modern inhabitants of Gran Canaria carry an estimated 16%–31% Guanche autosomal ancestry

[Loki]

The Guanches and the Berbers share the same origin, yes. They have been in North Africa for a very long time. And they were "white" (often blond, light eyes too). They were fairly tall.

I've heard there might be a connection with the Basques, too. Not sure if this shows genetically.

[kingjohn]

the remains in this study turned positive
for e-m81 that is very cool :)

[Rethel]

And they were "white" (often blond, light eyes too). They were fairly tall.

Nope. They were not - at least the berberian ones.
There was no one uniform Canarians at that time.
These fair examples lived only on some island, and
as Y testing proved, these features were introduced
by some Europeans. Even if later they were auDNAly
berberian, then it doesn't change the fact, that their
fairness was not from Berberian source but european.
Idk, celtic, romanic, vandalian, whatever...

[Loki]

Nope. They were not - at least the berberian ones.
There was no one uniform Canarians at that time.
These fair examples lived only on some island, and
as Y testing proved, these features were introduced
by some Europeans. Even if later they were auDNAly
berberian, then it doesn't change the fact, that their
fairness was not from Berberian source but european.
Idk, celtic, romanic, vandalian, whatever...

Why don't you read reports that the Europeans made of the Guanches when they first got to Canary Islands. It's irrelevant to me whether their "source of fairness" is from North African soil or the very near European soil.. because that doesn't mean anything. We don't know where their ultimate origin lies. Some suggest they descend from Cro Magnon.

As for the Berbers, they are related to the Guanches. Of course not all Berbers look fair today, because many are of mixed stock in modern times. That doesn't mean they were always mixed.

[Loki]

https://youtu.be/rQ0eUYPqhRM

[Smeagol]

Why don't you read reports that the Europeans made of the Guanches when they first got to Canary Islands. It's irrelevant to me whether their "source of fairness" is from North African soil or the very near European soil.. because that doesn't mean anything. We don't know where their ultimate origin lies. Some suggest they descend from Cro Magnon.

As for the Berbers, they are related to the Guanches. Of course not all Berbers look fair today, because many are of mixed stock in modern times. That doesn't mean they were always mixed.

Coon (1939) proposed two sources for blondism and Nordic traits in Berbers:

The most troublesome factor in the whole North African racial problem lies in the necessity of explaining the origin of the local Nordics, whose presence as a minority in the populations of Tunisia, Algeria, and northern Morocco, if not in the Canary Islands, cannot be denied. There are two possible explanations, as follows:

(1) The North African Nordics resemble the mixed Nordics of Upper Palaeolithic inspiration found in Ireland and western Norway more than they do the ash-blond Eastern Valley Nordics of Norway, and those of Sweden. Therefore the so-called Nordics of North Africa are a mixture of brunet Mediterraneans of tall stature and considerable facial length with Afalou survivors. The minor blondism of these "Nordics" is derived from the Afalou side of the ancestry.

(2) The North African Nordics were partly formed as stated, but not wholly so, for there are some ash-blonds in the Rif; furthermore, the Riffian Nordics are lighter-haired than individuals of Afalou type, just as European Nordics are lighter-haired than are modern representatives of the Brünn race. Blond hair is positively associated with narrow noses, and the Afalou type nose is moderately broad. Unless it is possible to explain these phenomena as genetic recombinations, we must admit a Nordic invasion of North Africa from Europe or Asia as early as the second millennium B.C. Of the two continents, Asia is by far the more likely immediate source.

[Loki]

Yeah, I know. I find this especially interesting in his second option: "... we must admit a Nordic invasion of North Africa from Europe or Asia as early as the second millennium B.C. "

Then there are other theories, like coming from Atlantis. Many would laugh at the idea, but I wouldn't reject it out of hand. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

Anyway, if you have a look at the video I posted, the guy talks about Guanches, Berbers and also Basques. Quite interesting.

[Fantomas]

Why don't you read reports that the Europeans made of the Guanches when they first got to Canary Islands. It's irrelevant to me whether their "source of fairness" is from North African soil or the very near European soil.. because that doesn't mean anything. We don't know where their ultimate origin lies. Some suggest they descend from Cro Magnon.

As for the Berbers, they are related to the Guanches. Of course not all Berbers look fair today, because many are of mixed stock in modern times. That doesn't mean they were always mixed.
Don't you know that? Kurgan religion teaches that fairness was invented exclusively in North Pontic Neolithic area and later brought by Nordic cavalrymen to the west. This is an axiom which is not requiring of proof. You just must believe it, don't ask why.

[kingjohn]

https://unsafeharbour.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/berber-young-man2.jpg

[Rethel]

Why don't you read reports that the Europeans made of the Guanches when they first got to Canary Islands. It's irrelevant to me whether their "source of fairness" is from North African soil or the very near European soil.. because that doesn't mean anything. We don't know where their ultimate origin lies. Some suggest they descend from Cro Magnon.

They were not unite ethnos.
They were a mix at least of Berbers (majority) and europeans.
The reports also says, that majority of idlans were inhabited
by dark tribes, not fair ones.



As for the Berbers, they are related to the Guanches. Of course not all Berbers look fair today, because many are of mixed stock in modern times. That doesn't mean they were always mixed.

They were mixed allready when Spaniards arrived.


https://unsafeharbour.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/berber-young-man2.jpg

Rifean of Kabylian - the same.
They have a lot of celtic, roman and first of all german admix.
First made a history homework, and then make claims.

[Loki]

They were mixed allready when Spaniards arrived.

The Guanches? No, they were not.

[Rethel]

Don't you know that? Kurgan religion teaches that fairness was invented exclusively in North Pontic Neolithic area and later brought by Nordic cavalrymen to the west. This is an axiom which is not requiring of proof. You just must believe it, don't ask why.

Evey race has one palce of origin.
Logically, the whitness also has to start somewhere.
Why do you think Andamianians did not separatly lived in Lappland or Ainus in Gabon?
Why only white race should be an exeption and be spread all across the globe independently?

[Rethel]

The Guanches? No, they were not.

Yes, they were.
Most of them were in the type of berbers, and minority was white, as relations and dna proves.
DNA also proved, that some europeans arrived there indeed as they found there R1b. Or do you
think, it grew from the ground, the same as some E1-bantu minority among them?

[kingjohn]

Pre-Hispanic:thumb001: :cool:
e-m81 is not Bantu :picard1:
Guanche Canary Islands Tenerife [gun012] M 621 ± 39 AD E1b1b1b1a1 [M183] U6b1a Rodrıguez-Varela 2017

Guanche Canary Islands Tenerife [gun011] M 791 ± 96 AD E1b1b1b1a1 [M183] T2c1d2 Rodrıguez-Varela 2017

Guanche Canary Islands Tenerife [gun002] M 1089 ± 65 AD E1b1b1b1a1 [M183] H1cf Rodrıguez-Varela 2017

[Rethel]

Yeah, I know. I find this especially interesting in his second option: "... we must admit a Nordic invasion of North Africa from Europe or Asia as early as the second millennium B.C. "

Not invasion, but just wandering of people, like BellBeakers or V88 herders.
But the firness in Maghreb does not comes only from such ancient source.
Exept some forgotten celtic migrations and Greek, Roman and especially
heavy Vandal and Alanic influences, there were also arabic and slavic
influrnce. Slavic via slaves and warrior who were hired by mulim rulers.
Here was even a thread about slavic village in Marokko. But largerlythe
whitness was spread by slave trade - mostly women. Abourt one million
of Europeans was captured in early Middle Ages by muslims and sold
throughout whole Islamic Caliphate, but mostly in northern Africa. Idk
the nubmer of later kidnapped people, but was probably also high if not
higher, as northern african pirate states and turkish navy was specialized
in this proceder. But in the Middle Ages, long before Spaniard arrived to
Canary Islands one of the north african Caliph (idk remember if it was
Almohad or Almoravid) fighting in Iberia took 300,000 exclusivly young
blonde women. How do you think, hom many inhabitants at that time
had Maghreb? in 1900 it was probably something 10,000,000. The 800
years earlier the number could be around one million or less. It was a
very significant % in local population, but as I did point out earlier, it
was not the only one event but there was much more sources during
whole history - but still majority of maghrebians is dark. Take also unto
account that Algeria had 10% of R1 in present day population, and it
didn't grow on the field on their own, and also all French are gone.

[Fantomas]

Evey race has one palce of origin.
Logically, the whitness also has to start somewhere.
Why do you think Andamianians did not separatly lived in Lappland or Ainus in Gabon?
Why only white race should be an exeption and be spread all across the globe independently?
Long before that North Africa and Europe was populated by HG's, some of them were already close to Europeoid appearance, thanks to individual changing and later, to Med. admixture. And depigmentation process must be started already among them, though you don't mean to say that whiteness was brought to the north for EHG by CHG's? Anyway, Europe was settled by real Europeoids, including Atlantic coastline already in Neolithic and there had been the similar changing evolution that was in the eastern part of Europe. If only you're not believe in some distinctive group of blonde Australopithecus

[Fantomas]

Not invasion, but just wandering of people, like BeelBeakers or V88 herders.
But the firness in Maghreb does not comes only from such ancient source.
Exept some forgotten celtic migrations and Greek, Roman and especially
heavy Vandal and Alanic influences
Germans, being heavily Romanized Christians, have not reasons to settle among mountain Berber tribes. They seized just big coastal towns and later were completely destroyed by Romans in 6 AD. So their influence on Berbers is completely excluded

[Cristiano viejo]

The Guanches and the Berbers share the same origin, yes. They have been in North Africa for a very long time. And they were "white" (often blond, light eyes too). They were fairly tall.
Cristóbal Colón said, textually, that "the Guanches are not nor light nor dark colour", and in the registers of the slave market they are called both "light-skinned" and "dark-skinned".

According to the French conquerors, the Guanches "were tall and formidable.

According the English hispanist Hugh Thomas in his book The Slave Trade, there were around 21.500 Guanches in the Canary Islands during the Spanish conquest: 6.000 in Gran Canaria, 14.000 in Tenerife and 1.500 in the rest of the islands.
Many of them were dead due to diseases in the contact with Europeans, many more due to the war, and a few more were sold as slaves in Andalusia.

Those Guanches that remained were mixed with the Spanish (and other Europeans such as French, Italians etc) colonizers. For this reason many Canarians have that peculiar phenotype. Those Canarians that look full European is because the "recent" emigration.

[Rethel]

Long before that North Africa and Europe was populated by HG's, some of them were already close to Europeoid appearance, thanks to individual changing and later, to Med. admixture. And depigmentation process must be started already among them, though you don't mean to say that whiteness was brought to the north for EHG by CHG's? Anyway, Europe was settled by real Europeoids, including Atlantic coastline already in Neolithic and there had been the similar changing evolution that was in the eastern part of Europe. If only you're not believe in some distinctive group of blonde Australopithecus

:picard2:

You have accurate nick. Fant'omans speaks fantasies. :)


Germans, being heavily Romanized Christians, have not reasons to settle among mountain Berber tribes. They seized just big coastal towns and later were completely destroyed by Romans in 6 AD. So their influence on Berbers is completely excluded

Women, childern and farmers too? :picard2:

[Rethel]

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanczowie#Wygl.C4.85d_i_pochodzenie

Here is written, that Guanches were made
at least for three distinct groups, and that
fair people lived only on Tenerifa. Other 2
were dark and short. And btw, in I century
Islands were probably uninhabited. But even
if we consider these 21,500 people from the
XVth century, it isnt really so hard to imagine,
how a small group of Celts or Vandals could
influence the look of inhabitants...

[Fantomas]

https://i.imgur.com/pR67VOS.jpg

[StonyArabia]

The Guanache admixture is actually what makes Canarians very exotic for European standards more so than Sicilians. Plus the Guanche were not uniform indeed at least by phenotype, some had rather darkish skin, and were said to look "Semitic" and were often of short height, well others were said to be light and blondish. Such features are still present in North Africa.

From what I have been told their skin color was quite similar to the Amerindians, so they were pretty much brown people like the majority of today's Berbers

[Fantomas]

:picard2:

You have accurate nick. Fant'omans speaks fantasies. :)
Well, that version is better than hypothesis of patented exclusive right of "Yamna's people" to produce white children




Women, childern and farmers too? :picard2:
Yes!

Procopius of Caesarea. Vandalic Wars:

But Belisarius, when the infantry came up in the late afternoon, moved as quickly as he could with the whole army and went against the camp of the Vandals. And Gelimer, realising that Belisarius with his infantry and the rest of his army was coming against him straightway, without saying a word or giving a command leaped upon his horse and was off in flight on the road leading to Numidia. And his kinsmen and some few of his domestics followed him in utter consternation and guarding with silence what was taking place. And for some time it escaped the notice of the Vandals that Gelimer had run away, but when they all perceived that he had fled, and the enemy were already plainly seen, then indeed the men began to shout and the children cried out and the women wailed. And they neither took with them the money they had nor did they heed the laments of those dearest to them, but every man fled in complete disorder just as he could. And the Romans, coming up, captured the camp, money and all, with not a man in it; and they pursued the fugitives throughout the whole night, killing all the men upon whom they happened, and making slaves of the women and children.

[Rethel]

Well, that version is better than hypothesis of patented exclusive right of "Yamna's people" to produce white children


Where did I say something about Yamna? :picard2:

These are your own fantasies...



Yes!

Procopius of Caesarea. Vandalic Wars:

These are your own fantasies again...

Read propersly, what you are quoting and in addition bolding: :picard2:

killing all the men upon whom they happened,
and making slaves of the women and children.

It really looks, like all women surrvied, all children,
and a lot of men, which were not captured and killed.

Interesting, how some people are reading exactly opposite as
is written, and yet are showing this as a proof for their claim. :picard2:

[kingjohn]

you acting like when the spaniards arrived they met
an black african tribe
the guanches were not that dark i think they carried slc24a5 derived
maybe they were not blond blue eyes but they were not that dark either .

[Loki]

...But even
if we consider these 21,500 people from the
XVth century, it isnt really so hard to imagine,
how a small group of Celts or Vandals could
influence the look of inhabitants...

... only that it isn't true. It's only your theory because there are certain facts you are unwilling to accept, since they do not conform to your narrow worldview mindset.

How can you be so ignorant? The whole point of this thread is to show that Guanches were not European by DNA.

[Loki]

you acting like when the spaniards arrived they met
an black african tribe
the guanches were not that dark i think they carried slc24a5 derived
maybe they were not blond blue eyes but they were not that dark either .

But they were, according to historical reports.

[Rethel]

How can you be so ignorant? The whole point of this thread is to show that Guanches were not European by DNA.

It doesn;t contradict this.
They could have 95% of berberian au,
and still their light pigmentation could
be from Europe, the same as R1 among
them. And it was not majority, but a
minority, as there was no one uniform
Guanchian folk.

[Rethel]

Bump

[Rethel]

If someone has yet some doubts:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/10/29/y-snp-calls-for-guanches/

It’s quite convenient for mainstream narratives about the
Canary Islands that genome-wide data for the Guanche DNA
samples found to belong to Y haplogroups R1b and it didn’t
appear in the recent paper that the samples below came from.

Rest of hgs:

Tenerife: 2 x E1b-M81
Gran Canaria: T1a2a-Y13274 and E or T1a2.

The very existance of T1 suggests some additional
admixture, as Berbers are not naturarly T1. Much
more obvious it is with R1b which was discovered
in last year I guess if I remember correctly.

[Fantomas]

Where did I say something about Yamna? :picard2:

These are your own fantasies...

These are your own fantasies again...

Read propersly, what you are quoting and in addition bolding: :picard2:
Well, according to you, when and where're European "whites" came from? Don't you forget your own words? that must be some limited area




killing all the men upon whom they happened,
and making slaves of the women and children.

It really looks, like all women surrvied, all children,
and a lot of men, which were not captured and killed.

Interesting, how some people are reading exactly opposite as
is written, and yet are showing this as a proof for their claim. :picard2:
During the next days after the battle, Romans caught German survivors and deported'em into Constantinople. Before that Berbers going from west, bled Germans into Carthage where they were defeated by Romans completely. So that was real genocide, and Africa was cleared of Germans

[Dr. Bambo]

They were Vandals

[Cristiano viejo]

They were Vandals

Quality post :laugh: