Non-scandinavians and asatro?

[Hilding]

I really feel that I must ask, (no disrespect or patronizing intended!!!) why do non-scandinavians practice asatru? Arent there more suitable heathenism avaliable from your own parts of the world?
I'd like to again stress the fact that I'm not trying to insult anybody, this is a question that has been in my head for a long time and now I have the chance to ask it out loud.

[Loki]

I really feel that I must ask, (no disrespect or patronizing intended!!!) why do non-scandinavians practice asatru?

You must remember that the Germanic gods were not only worshipped by Scandinavians historically, but by the ancestors of all Germanic people. Their descendants would include all Germanic-speaking regions of Europe, as well as surrounding areas like Northwestern France, etc etc.

[SuuT]

You must remember that the Germanic gods were not only worshipped by Scandinavians historically, but by the ancestors of all Germanic people. Their descendants would include all Germanic-speaking regions of Europe, as well as surrounding areas like Northwestern France, etc etc.

I think what he might be trying to ask deals with the subtle variations - the details, as it were. For example, the British Isles is something of a conglomeration of Celtic and Germanic mythos that simply wouldn't make sense in the Scandinavian conception of Asatru. And given that the extreme Germanic North was the birth place of being true to the Aesir, it becomes - for Scandinavians in general (those of the Aesir, that is) - a question mark when, say, a Bavarian (pulling an example out of my arse) lays claim to Asatru. But he'll have to clarify for himself.

[Loki]

I think what he might be trying to ask deals with the subtle variations - the details, as it were. For example, the British Isles is something of a conglomeration of Celtic and Germanic mythos that simply wouldn't make sense in the Scandinavian conception of Asatru. And given that the extreme Germanic North was the birth place of being true to the Aesir, it becomes - for Scandinavians in general (those of the Aesir, that is) - a question mark when, say, a Bavarian (pulling an example out of my arse) lays claim to Asatru. But he'll have to clarify for himself.

Even so, the ancestors of the Bavarians, the Bavarii, worshipped Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wōdanaz) before they were converted to Christianity. So, I see no reason why a modern Bavarian who wants to return to the religion of his forefathers, should be prevented from worshipping these ancient deities. After all Asatru is strongly connected to ancestral roots, as are any native religions.

The fact remains though, that Scandinavians were the last Europeans to be Christianized, and hence they obviously have a stronger bond to ancient religions than the rest. So I can understand Hilding's question.

[SuuT]

Even so, the ancestors of the Bavarians, the Bavarii, worshipped Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wōdanaz) before they were converted to Christianity. So, I see no reason why a modern Bavarian who wants to return to the religion of his forefathers, should be prevented from worshipping these ancient deities. After all Asatru is strongly connected to ancestral roots, as are any native religions.

No debate, there! But, again, it's the subtleties that - if my gut serves me - will be called into question. In other words. "What's in a name?" - the Bavarii did not know Odinas as Óðinn, but by another etymologically 'synonymous' designation. We are what we speak, that is to say:

http://cognation.stanford.edu/press/newscientist.pdf


The fact remains though, that Scandinavians were the last Europeans to be Christianized, and hence they obviously have a stronger bond to ancient religions than the rest. So I can understand Hilding's question.


Perhaps what is more is that the Christianisation was never 'completed'! - Scandinavians (generally) possess a unique status in this regard when considered part of Germanendom, more generally.


At any rate, I'll shut the hel up now and let the man speak for himself. :D

[Aemma]

Great question! And you got some great responses! :)

I think the use of this particular label has much to do with the historical developments of the reconstruction of modern day heathenry. Iceland of course recognises Asatru as a legitimate belief system now as does Denmark. It would stand to reason of course that they would call Heathenry Asatru. With respect to the use of the term in North America, much of it has to do with the work of Stephen McNallen and his group's various metamorphoses over the decades, the Asatru Alliance's and Valgard Murray's work and the work of many members of The Troth (Paxson, Gundarsson and the like). And of course the works of Edred Thorsson can't be forgotten in all of this as well. The early stages of Asatru per se in North America derived from a rediscovery of the Viking spirit, their worldview and their spiritual system. Along with the development of Asatru in North America, Theodism also developed, modelled on the elements of a sacral kingship community, pioneered by such people as Swain and Eric Wodening, who focused on a more Anglo-Saxon model while Dan O'Halloran has modelled his along the Norman model. And yet, in tandem, a more Continental Teutonic model had developed as well, drawing upon the more Teutonic nomenclature of our Gods and Goddesses. And lastly, Odinism of course is yet a less Nordic-based but moreso pan Indo-European in focus though relying heavily of course on our Teutonic/Nordic Lore. Its development primarily started in Australia and England and has spread from there. I don't know anything about the Odian movement mind you so I cannot speak to that.

All of this to say that the term Asatru doesn't always reflect a purely Nordic approach to our indigenous religion, especially in the non-Scandinavian parts of our world. Some use the term Asatru interchangeably with Heathenry, some don't. I fall in the latter category.

But, most of us pretty much use the same Lore and folklore, depending on cultural focus of course. I think non-Scandinavians Asatruar tend to use a broader base of myths as Lore while Icelandic Asatruar would more than likely more heavily rely on the Eddas and Sagas, perhaps exclusively. (On this point I'm not sure though).

I'm not sure that I answered your question really. :) But there you have my two-cents worth for now. :)

Cheers Hilding!...Aemma

[Loki]

Perhaps what is more is that the Christianisation was never 'completed'! - Scandinavians (generally) possess a unique status in this regard when considered part of Germanendom, more generally.


True, and the Icelanders more than anyone else.

[Hilding]

You must remember that the Germanic gods were not only worshipped by Scandinavians historically, but by the ancestors of all Germanic people. Their descendants would include all Germanic-speaking regions of Europe, as well as surrounding areas like Northwestern France, etc etc.

SuuT put it in a such a nice manner that I think I'll just quote him for my reply :cool:


I think what he might be trying to ask deals with the subtle variations - the details, as it were. For example, the British Isles is something of a conglomeration of Celtic and Germanic mythos that simply wouldn't make sense in the Scandinavian conception of Asatru. And given that the extreme Germanic North was the birth place of being true to the Aesir, it becomes - for Scandinavians in general (those of the Aesir, that is) - a question mark when, say, a Bavarian (pulling an example out of my arse) lays claim to Asatru. But he'll have to clarify for himself.




Even so, the ancestors of the Bavarians, the Bavarii, worshipped Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wōdanaz) before they were converted to Christianity. So, I see no reason why a modern Bavarian who wants to return to the religion of his forefathers, should be prevented from worshipping these ancient deities. After all Asatru is strongly connected to ancestral roots, as are any native religions.

The fact remains though, that Scandinavians were the last Europeans to be Christianized, and hence they obviously have a stronger bond to ancient religions than the rest. So I can understand Hilding's question.

Yes they did, still with different names (Wotan and Donar etc). I do understand that scandinavian asatro is probably the closest you can get to germanic mythology since christianity (as you said) came to us last and we managed to preserve more than the rest of Europe.

[Hilding]

Aemma:

First of all, thank you for you enlightening reply :)

As a snowed in scandinavian I have shown no interest at all in "outlanders" who practice our traditions and use our names and actually found it quite weird, kind or "new age-ish". But of course you germanians on the other side of the ocean should practice the lore that lies in our, partially, common blood. And development and adaptation is obviously needed.


All of this to say that the term Asatru doesn't always reflect a purely Nordic approach to our indigenous religion

Well a cake can be many kinds of cake I guess though I find it quite misleading to use a term for something that is not what it is supposed to be.

[SuuT]

Hilding,

This is the point at which you explain how hårdknackad we Scandinavians are! :D

[Hilding]

Hilding,

This is the point at which you explain how hårdknackad we Scandinavians are! :D

It's actually "hårdnackad" ;)

[SuuT]

It's actually "hårdnackad" ;)

Lol. :D - You'll excuse the speed of my typing, I'm sure. :D;)

:thumbs up

[Loki]

As a snowed in scandinavian I have shown no interest at all in "outlanders" who practice our traditions and use our names and actually found it quite weird, kind or "new age-ish". But of course you germanians on the other side of the ocean should practice the lore that lies in our, partially, common blood. And development and adaptation is obviously needed.


I couldn't help but notice, you are partially Finnish. Did the ancient Finns worship Odin as well? And if not, how are you reconciling the fact that only some of your ancestors bowed down to this religion? :)

Another point I have to make, is that Germanic gods are not Scandinavian-owned (you say "our" traditions and "our" names). For example, when the Dutch worship Odin they are worshipping a Dutch/Germanic god, not a Scandinavian one. Scandinavians are only part of Germandom (albeit the purest part, you have no argument from me on this).

[SuuT]

I couldn't help but notice, you are partially Finnish. Did the ancient Finns worship Odin as well? And if not, how are you reconciling the fact that only some of your ancestors bowed down to this religion? :)

Another point I have to make, is that Germanic gods are not Scandinavian-owned (you say "our" traditions and "our" names). For example, when the Dutch worship Odin they are worshipping a Dutch/Germanic god, not a Scandinavian one. Scandinavians are only part of Germandom (albeit the purest part, you have no argument from me on this).


The plot thickens......:clapping

[Heimmacht]

Our Gods are almost the same, only we call them a little different, like the name Wodan would be more suitable here in the Netherlands then Odin and Donar to Thor.

[Loki]

Our Gods are almost the same, only we call them a little different, like the name Wodan would be more suitable here in the Netherlands then Odin and Donar to Thor.

Indeed, slight variations in name according to linguistic variation, but referring to exactly the same entity.

[stormlord]

I really feel that I must ask, (no disrespect or patronizing intended!!!) why do non-scandinavians practice asatru? Arent there more suitable heathenism avaliable from your own parts of the world?
I'd like to again stress the fact that I'm not trying to insult anybody, this is a question that has been in my head for a long time and now I have the chance to ask it out loud.

Your argument rests on a straw man; you say "your" own parts of the world, who exactly are you talking to? I don't see any Peruvian adherents of Asatru here so perhaps you should ask your question elsewhere if you want an informed response.

Secondly, why are your runes based on Italic? why do you feel the need to take from another culture? Couldn't you use something from your own part of the world? No disrespect intended, right? ;)

To answer more seriously I think the main point is that you failed to differentiate between non-scandinavian and non-germanic, all of whom have just as much connection to the basic aspects of the religion. Also, the different forms of germanic paganism have acquired different political aspects, I'm not very clued in about the politics, but Asatru is (apparently) much more politically correct, while odinism has a stronger racial component, so perhaps people identify with the form of germanic neopaganism that most strongly correlates with their general views, even if it doesn't correlate exactly with their location.

[Aemma]

Hilding,

This is the point at which you explain how hårdknackad we Scandinavians are! :D


I have no idea what this word means? :( (Hard-wired perhaps? Hard-headed even? :D)

[Hilding]

I couldn't help but notice, you are partially Finnish. Did the ancient Finns worship Odin as well? And if not, how are you reconciling the fact that only some of your ancestors bowed down to this religion? :)

Another point I have to make, is that Germanic gods are not Scandinavian-owned (you say "our" traditions and "our" names). For example, when the Dutch worship Odin they are worshipping a Dutch/Germanic god, not a Scandinavian one. Scandinavians are only part of Germandom (albeit the purest part, you have no argument from me on this).

That is correct, I am partly finnish. And no I have not yet gone any deeper into the finnish myths and for now I don't feel that I really have any obligation to do so. I do concider myself a swede rather than a finn since I have grown up in Sweden, talk swedish and not finnish etc. The finnish blood I have comes from the border between Sweden and Finland way up north. There are also some great great great grandmother who was apparently dutch but that doesn't affect me either. Have I made myself clear enough? Most people are mixed in SOME way or another and some more than others :)

I wonder if the germans or dutch used the words "Odin" or "asatro", where are the german versions of the sagas or the edda? As I mentioned earlier, things evolve and adapt to best fit in.

[Hilding]

Your argument rests on a straw man; you say "your" own parts of the world, who exactly are you talking to? I don't see any Peruvian adherents of Asatru here so perhaps you should ask your question elsewhere if you want an informed response.

Secondly, why are your runes based on Italic? why do you feel the need to take from another culture? Couldn't you use something from your own part of the world? No disrespect intended, right? ;)

To answer more seriously I think the main point is that you failed to differentiate between non-scandinavian and non-germanic, all of whom have just as much connection to the basic aspects of the religion. Also, the different forms of germanic paganism have acquired different political aspects, I'm not very clued in about the politics, but Asatru is (apparently) much more politically correct, while odinism has a stronger racial component, so perhaps people identify with the form of germanic neopaganism that most strongly correlates with their general views, even if it doesn't correlate exactly with their location.

Well my intention is not to preach or point fingers, rather to ask and hopefully learn some new things. :)

Aemma:
Hårdnackad means "hard necked", meaning stubborn or obstinate.

[Loki]

I wonder if the germans or dutch used the words "Odin" or "asatro",


Wōdanaz/Óðinn/Wōden/Odin/Godan/etc all refer to the same individual, the spelling reflects regional variations. That is unimportant and to dwell on it a bit dogmatic.



where are the german versions of the sagas or the edda?

Unfortunately the Christianization of mainland Europe was very complete, and eradicated many precious traditions of old that had existed.

[Loki]

Hårdnackad means "hard necked", meaning stubborn or obstinate.

In my language, Afrikaans, it is hardnekkig. Same word, same meaning, just regional variation in spelling and pronounciation. But just as Germanic.

[Aemma]

...but Asatru is (apparently) much more politically correct, while odinism has a stronger racial component, so perhaps people identify with the form of germanic neopaganism that most strongly correlates with their general views, even if it doesn't correlate exactly with their location.

Ahh very well put Rivalin and indisputably another important piece of the puzzle imho. Indeed the term Asatru in North America at any rate does very much have that type of PC leaning. There are those Asatruar here who will argue with you until you are blue in the face that it goes wihout saying that ANYBODY can hear the call of the Northern Gods and Goddesses, regardless of cultural heritage. Yes some believe that even an Afro-American can be Asatru. :rolleyes: There is always this ongoing debate between non-folkish and folkish Asatruar.

On the other hand, the term Odinism clearly denotes a heavy racialist perspective. There is no arguing where one stands when one states that he or she is an Odinist. You're quite simply folkish, no ifs, ands or buts!

:)...Aemma

[Hilding]

Wōdanaz/Óðinn/Wōden/Odin/Godan/etc all refer to the same individual, the spelling reflects regional variations. That is unimportant and to dwell on it a bit dogmatic.

Unfortunately the Christianization of mainland Europe was very complete, and eradicated many precious traditions of old that had existed.

True, they do (Oden in modern day swedish even). It'd be VERY interesting to be able to do a full comparison between the mainland myth versus the scandinavian one. I do suspect that the difference is bigger than just bending of names.

Getting a bit off topic here but do you happen to know the german equivalence for Loke by the way?

[SuuT]

[...] There are those Asatruar here who will argue with you until you are blue in the face that it goes wihout saying that ANYBODY can hear the call of the Northern Gods and Goddesses, regardless of cultural heritage. Yes some believe that even an Afro-American can be Asatru. :rolleyes: There is always this ongoing debate between non-folkish and folkish Asatruar.

That is to say, those who are heard, and those that go unheard - if not laughed at - by the Aesir. :)


Whereas the term Odinism is clearly denotes a heavy racialist perspective. There is no arguing where one stands when one states that he or she is an Odinist. You're quite simply folkish, no ifs, ands or buts!

One must (well, not "must" - but ought to) understand, that for Northern Germanic Asatrur (as exemplars of our truth), a distinction does not exist. In other words, true to the Aesir is true to the race, in so far as it is the substrate of the folk. :)


Many Scandinavians are blown-off, if not resented, for their consumate rejection of what has occured on the continent :(. One more thing, in my opinion, to be overcome.

[Aemma]

I wonder if the germans or dutch used the words "Odin" or "asatro", where are the german versions of the sagas or the edda? As I mentioned earlier, things evolve and adapt to best fit in.

Well the easiest way to answer this one is this way: that part of our history has been taken away from us. Poof! Vanished! And more than likely destroyed for all time (well our narrow conception of time anyway) unless the Vatican has stuff stashed away in its many vaults somewhere. :p

I think it's very important to not lose sight of the fact that the Lore is mainly Scandinavian precisely because much of it was written down at a time that occurred relatively shortly after Scandinavia's, more so Iceland's, conversion to Christianity. We definitely have Snorri to thank for that, despite his Christian interpolations in the Prose Edda. Compare that to the fact that the Continental Germanics and the Insular ones (the Saxons, Angles, etc) were converted to Christianity long before the last of the Scandinavians were. This is just how the politics and hence history played out. And add to this the fact that whatever spoken traditions were alive during the early periods of conversion were more than likely suitably lost by the time the written word took over...there's not much that we can claim as continental lore, save for a few things. Sadly....

As Loki rightly points out, our Gods and Goddesses are pan-Germanic: They 'belong' to all of us that are of Northern European descent, not just to those of Scandinavian descent. And as Heimmacht and Loki also point out, the nomenclature takes on a cultural flavour of course, but they are all the same deities in the end. :)

:)...Aemma

[Loki]

Getting a bit off topic here but do you happen to know the german equivalence for Loke by the way?

I have no idea unfortunately, maybe someone else here knows?

[Aemma]

Aemma:
Hårdnackad means "hard necked", meaning stubborn or obstinate.

:) Ok. Thanks Hilding. It's what I thought...sounds an awful lot like "hard-headed" It's all in the same area of the body so we're good! :D

[Ulf]

I have no idea unfortunately, maybe someone else here knows?

He goes by the name Locho in James Hjuka's Germanic Heathenry.
http://www.irminenschaft.net/gods.htm#24

OHG name was Locho, according to Grimm:
Grimm's Teutonic Mythology (http://books.google.com/books?id=q1gOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA242&lpg=PA242&dq=grimm+teutonic+mythology+locho&source=bl&ots=vNrOgipf_a&sig=lobWbIJriTrc5-q5E3fTl17XJac&hl=en&ei=1c-VSYbRDJWksAOSg4CnBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result)

[Aemma]

That is to say, those who are heard, and those that go unheard - if not laughed at - by the Aesir. :)

Ohh I completely get what you're saying but in my experience so far, there is a fair share of people out there that will say that they have heard "the call of the Gods" regardless of whatever argument a racially-conscious heathen may set forth that our belief system is organic to a People and not available to just anyone. I mean most of the members of The Troth would NOT agree with me I'm very afraid to say. I think I'm most disturbed by those people who are of Northern European heritage and yet make claims that our gods call whomever they want, regadless of that person's race. How bloody PC and incorrect can they be? :(



One must (well, not "must" - but ought to) understand, that for Northern Germanic Asatrur (as exemplars of our truth), a distinction does not exist. In other words, true to the Aesir is true to the race, in so far as it is the substrate of the folk. :)

Absolutely! Now tell that to Diana Paxson and her crew. That the inherent cultural and ancestral aspect of our belief system is not fully respected much less acknowledged by some of our own people is not only bewildering but totally unacceptable. They fail to grasp the key point of heathenry/Asatru in the end: it belongs to a People; you can't just pick and choose it and then purchase it at the 7-11 along with your favourite Slurpie.



Many Scandinavians are blown-off, if not resented, for their consumate rejection of what has occured on the continent :(. One more thing, in my opinion, to be overcome.

Agreed! :)

And fair enough. :) But I still don't like the term Asatru for all of its non-folkish connotations here in north America.

:)...Aemma

[SuuT]

I have to wonder if anyone really took the time to read this, and extrapolate....

http://cognation.stanford.edu/press/newscientist.pdf


hmmm...:confused2:

[Hildolf]

My brief thoughts on this are quite simply that the "Gods" reside in the folksoul of all germanic people, those who open themselves to the Aesir and seek to win for themselves and their folk the runes and the mysteries of our people have every right to use the term asatru.

[Aemma]

I have to wonder if anyone really took the time to read this, and extrapolate....

http://cognation.stanford.edu/press/newscientist.pdf


hmmm...:confused2:

Sorry I hadn't and I just did.

:)...Aemma

[Osweo]

I have to wonder if anyone really took the time to read this, and extrapolate....

http://cognation.stanford.edu/press/newscientist.pdf


hmmm...:confused2:

I'm looking at it now, and have already found an embarrassing error involving Russian number systems. As far as I can tell, the writer seems to be referring to a word for 'pen' that hasn't been used for a generation at least, and is now better translated as 'quill'! :p

But that wasn't the main point..

The article was diverting, but nothing majorly new in it for me. My Russian experience echoes much of what was written, but the article was overly concerned with more exotic contrasts than those found within Europe. That's an unfortunate tendency in the humanities in general, actually. Some mad little throwback tribe a million miles away, numbering fifty people, does summat weird, and all the anthropological community of the world takes notice, while more subtle things between major blocs of humanity are ignored. :rolleyes:

I don't see too much applicability of it for the closely related Germanic languages, though. It just seems straightforward to me that we in England should have a little more time for Woden than Wotan or Odin, never mind the linguistic waffle. I cringe at exoticism and the like, and going round using specifically Icelandic forms smacks a little of this to me, unless you're actually from Iceland!

As for it not really mattering and all the deities being the same but under distorted names, well, I disagree, the gods were regarded a bit different everywhere. It's a bigger matter than sound shifts. The different tribes experienced very different things in their history, and the attitude to the divine must have been shaped by this.

[Heimmacht]

The western-Germanic name for Loki is Loge.

[Osweo]

Immer ist Undank Loges Lohn! ;)

I quote the Meister.

http://home.earthlink.net/~markdlew/shw/Ring.htm


But for the purists, didn't Wagner employ a little 'creativity' when naming this character?

[SouthernBoy]

I really feel that I must ask, (no disrespect or patronizing intended!!!) why do non-scandinavians practice asatru? Globalism...

[Psychonaut]

I really feel that I must ask, (no disrespect or patronizing intended!!!) why do non-scandinavians practice asatru? Arent there more suitable heathenism avaliable from your own parts of the world?

First, I'm glad to see you're sinking you're teeth into the forum so soon after registering. :thumb001:

Second, after reading your extrapolations I agree somewhat. I've come to find it extremely off-putting that so many North American Heathens (the vast majority of whom are of German or British descent) are completely and utterly fixated on the Scandinavian expression of Heathenry. Many of them will go so far as to adopt medieval Scandinavian speech, clothing and mannerisms during Heathen gatherings. It bothers me to no end that these people are neglecting the specific traditions of their own Folk and parading around as if they were Vikings. What Aemma and Loki mentioned about Pan-Germanicism is an important point, but what most North American Heathens seem to do is take that general idea to mean that Scandinavian Heathenry is appropriate for all Germanics, when the more correct interpretation might be that a common Proto-Germanic pantheon is more appropriate for a Pan-Germanic project than a specifically Scandinavian visage.


I have to wonder if anyone really took the time to read this, and extrapolate....

I did. :)

The article takes many points from the Sapir Whorf Hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis) of which I am a fan. I got to experience the difference in fundamental thought patterns first hand when I learned Chinese, a language with no past or future tense. :confused:

[Loddfafner]

I am wary of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis except in its mildest forms as it is the justification for PC feminists to express offense at regular people's choice of words. They go so far as to believe that changing our language will bring about some egalitarian Utopia while using the wrong words only reinforces racist heterosexist ableist speciesist looksist capitalist patriarchy.

As for the main topic here, I look to Scandinavian literature for the most developed and preserved remnants of the old religion, but also look to the folk traditions that come through the folk as I have experienced it - through family traditions around Christmas and Easter.

I identify as heathen rather than Asatru because heathen is a venerable English word while Asatru is a term from a language I do not know and am not sure how to pronounce correctly or use in a sentence.

i suppose that attention to wording qualifies me as a PC feminist after all...;)

[Jägerstaffel]

Personally, I tend to use the Scandinavian names for the gods because they're the names that I learned the gods as. That's about as complex as that goes. I've got some Nordic blood but I realise to most scandinavians I'm just another confused North American 'new ager'. I don't change my ways to suit the opinons of others though.

I guess another reason is the respect I have for the fact that Scandinavia kept the traditions alive for as long as they did; they fleshed out the gods for us when the rest of us were forgetting them - it is through scandinavian sources that we know the most about our gods; perhaps the ancient Norse were the only ones that remembered the TRUE names? Who knows?

I think it's important to remember that our people were tribal at the hey-day of our folk religion. Tribes tend to latch on to 'patron' gods and such and tend to develop idiosyncratic differences in approach to them - but two names for one thing is still one thing.

[Gooding]

Personally, I tend to use the Scandinavian names for the gods because they're the names that I learned the gods as. That's about as complex as that goes. I've got some Nordic blood but I realise to most scandinavians I'm just another confused North American 'new ager'. I don't change my ways to suit the opinons of others though.

I guess another reason is the respect I have for the fact that Scandinavia kept the traditions alive for as long as they did; they fleshed out the gods for us when the rest of us were forgetting them - it is through scandinavian sources that we know the most about our gods; perhaps the ancient Norse were the only ones that remembered the TRUE names? Who knows?

I think it's important to remember that our people were tribal at the hey-day of our folk religion. Tribes tend to latch on to 'patron' gods and such and tend to develop idiosyncratic differences in approach to them - but two names for one thing is still one thing.


Excellent points, Jaegerzen. While not significantly of Scandinavian heritage, I also choose to honor the Aesir and Vanir, using Asatruar sources as well as my own innovations to do so.I choose to honor the Norse gods and goddesses, although when I honor the ancestors, I honor them all, of every stock.Naturally, self reliance is part of the NNV and we all worship as is right for us to do so.www.runestone.org is a fairly good reference guide to North American Asatru :thumbs up

[Aemma]

It just seems straightforward to me that we in England should have a little more time for Woden than Wotan or Odin, never mind the linguistic waffle. I cringe at exoticism and the like, and going round using specifically Icelandic forms smacks a little of this to me, unless you're actually from Iceland!

Ok agreed that you blokes would and should have a bit more time for Woden than Wotan or Odin, but I do feel that it is often forgotten that those of us who do not live in Europe, who don't have that extra link if you will with the Motherland, have no other choice than to be a bit more creative in terms of piecing something together for ourselves that makes sense. Those of Anglo-Saxon backgrounds, those of Scandinavian backgrounds, even those of German backgrounds do have a leg up on those of us who have no written record of our own culture's histories. For many others of us who cannot claim such pure lineage, to have a more pan-Germanic approach and to 'borrow' from our Germanic kin cultures is not exoticism imo but rather the very pragmatic idea that you make due with what you've got. And let me tell you, some of us don't have a whole hel of a lot to cull from in terms of our own cultural groups. For those of us who claim to be Frankish there is nothing left for us to read, to savour, to ponder. And for those of us who also claim a Norman background there is really nothing there either that is heathen.

I think that's the inherent challenge in this reconstructed religion at any rate (I cannot speak for Celtic Recons since I know nothing about their own toilings in this regard)--to be able to carefully cull that which might best typify a pan-Germanic worldview.

Never in a million years would I be able to claim to be a Geat, or a Jute, but I certainly can make a claim to being a daughter of Germania. And in this regard I do feel that I have as much right to lay claim to honouring those gods and goddesses that my pre-Christian forebears might have honoured.


As for it not really mattering and all the deities being the same but under distorted names, well, I disagree, the gods were regarded a bit different everywhere.

I wouldn't have used the word 'distorted' but perhaps 'different'. But I still get your meaning Oswiu. Yes the gods were regarded a bit differently everywhere which one would entirely expect given that heathenry is a tribal religion to begin with. Even within a more homogenised culture, the experiences of the gods and goddesses would have been different among different kin groups. But that these subtle differences exist, does it mean that the deity in particular is very different? I personally don't think so.



The different tribes experienced very different things in their history, and the attitude to the divine must have been shaped by this.

Yes agreed, however I'm not convinced that that the attitudes towards the divine would have been that markedly different among Germanic tribes.

Cheers Oswiu!...Aemma

[Brynhild]

At the risk of sounding blunt ...

I've by-passed the more "Intellectual" explanations because I get a bloody headache trying to discern it!

I never use the word Asatru because I believe it to be a more Scandinavian term, and I'm only partly of Scandinavian ancestry. It doesn't mean, however that the worship of the Norse deities and practise of Heathenism is exclusive to Scandinavia, we have seen many different names relating to the same deities in other Germanic regions of Europe. Rather, it is reflective on what it is called in that part of the world.

I have made it very clear from my viewpoint that I'm a dual traditionalist Heathen - upholding both my Celto/Germanic roots.

A few threads for perusal:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2259
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1105&page=2
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1271&page=2

Another perspective that Northern Hemisphere folk couldn't even begin to understand - much to my frustration at times - is integrating my practises on the opposite side of the world! Funnily enough, it does work, just in the reverse times of year to yours.

Ahem, that might explain where I'm coming from. :confused:

[Psychonaut]

Aemma, you're definitely right. But, I have to wonder why so many people (and I'm thinking mainly of my own contacts in the AFA) just latch on to everything that is Scandinavian. You're absolutely correct that if we're going to make things work on this side of the pond there has to be a Pan-Germanic (or perhaps even Pan-Celto-Germanic) attitude. However, while most orgs certainly seem to be Pan-Germanic in their selection criteria for members, the terminology, practices and beliefs seem to be very Scandinavian, which is certainly not necessary.

[Aemma]

Globalism...

Sure an argument can be made for that somewhere SB and yes a Christian might perceive it in this way. I really can see how a Devil's Advocate type of argument can be made in this regard. But it's really more than that though I truly believe. There's also an element of tradition that creeps up in the development of all things human and sociological. People very much have a tendency to not fix things if they ain't broke as the saying goes and the use of the term Asatru in North America at least might just be a reflection of that. Perhaps the big mucky-mucks decided that this term might foot the bill and presto! the name stuck. Who knows?

But I do appreciate the point that you have subtlely raised SB. :)

Cheers SB!...Aemma

[Aemma]

Aemma, you're definitely right. But, I have to wonder why so many people (and I'm thinking mainly of my own contacts in the AFA) just latch on to everything that is Scandinavian. You're absolutely correct that if we're going to make things work on this side of the pond there has to be a Pan-Germanic (or perhaps even Pan-Celto-Germanic) attitude. However, while most orgs certainly seem to be Pan-Germanic in their selection criteria for members, the terminology, practices and beliefs seem to be very Scandinavian, which is certainly not necessary.

Ohh you're absolutely right too, Psy. And you bring up the excellent point with respect to the AFA: that is its focus. Anybody who has ever been a member of this org will know that it is based on very strong Nordic themes and I could almost safely say is based on a heavily romanticised notion of Viking life, behaviour and belief, if you will. The AFA's entire raison d'être is based on this premise of the 'Viking Ideal'. And I think that this is the AFA's main pitfall to be quite frank (sorry Gooding...I have certain biases that you will more than likely not agree with. No offence, ok? :)). It needn't be so heavily based in Scandinavian themes and imagery. I wholeheartedly agree. The same can be said for most of the Theodish movement as well (which at times claims to be a branch of Heathenry and at other times claims not to be). There is too heavy of an element of romanticisation of a perceived ideal based in one particular Germanic culture or time period in these orgs and not enough of an element on a more timeless and organic pan-Germanicism.

The OR of course is entirely different than the AFA. Though of course the Lore is that which we all have in common, its approach goes beyond pan-Germanicism and more towards pan Indo-Europeanism, which on a personal level works far better for me. :) There is no Scandinavian flavour at the OR; quite the opposite, it is a blending of Anglo-Saxon heathenry but with a whole other spiritual dimension as its focus, and virtually very little 'Scandinavian ethnic' feel to it. I would even dare to say that the OR has more of an 'acultural' bent in this manner, if I can be permitted to state it this way.

You're right Psy...the time is perhaps right for developing something a bit more home-grown here, reflective of our own experiences and cultural realities. But I think the movement needs young people like you to make this happen. It won't come from the leaders of the established orgs, I'd bet you dollars to donuts on that one. :D

Food for thought now eh Psy? ;)

Cheers!...Aemma

[Aemma]

At the risk of sounding blunt ...

I've by-passed the more "Intellectual" explanations because I get a bloody headache trying to discern it!

I love you Bryn! :)


I never use the word Asatru because I believe it to be a more Scandinavian term, and I'm only partly of Scandinavian ancestry. It doesn't mean, however that the worship of the Norse deities and practise of Heathenism is exclusive to Scandinavia, we have seen many different names relating to the same deities in other Germanic regions of Europe. Rather, it is reflective on what it is called in that part of the world.

I agree with you. The term Asatru isn't one that I myself personally use either, not only because of the ambiguity factor (folkish vs non-folkish though this is part of it) but because it lends a very narrow cultural connotation to the belief system which is very misleading. And although I'm technically an Odinist (since I am a member of the Odinic Rite and this is how we refer to ourselves), I have difficulties using this term here in North America with non-Odinists since most other heathens automatically assume that you only honour Odin, which is very very far from the truth. So the term heathen it is then for me. It works and best fits me and mine. Besides in terms of practicality, most Christians at least have some (albeit usually erroneous) concept of the word 'heathen' which is a good basis for the beginnings of any converation. :)


I have made it very clear from my viewpoint that I'm a dual traditionalist Heathen - upholding both my Celto/Germanic roots.

A few threads for perusal:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2259
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1105&page=2
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1271&page=2


Thanks for these Bryn. I admit I haven't even ventured into the dual trad thread yet. I promise to make my way there soon. :) I think it's great that you honour all of who you are and those that made you who you are. :)


Another perspective that Northern Hemisphere folk couldn't even begin to understand - much to my frustration at times - is integrating my practises on the opposite side of the world! Funnily enough, it does work, just in the reverse times of year to yours.

Yes, I need friendly reminders of that every now and again I'm afraid. Sorry. :) Have you ever thought of starting a blog with the intention of discussing what it's like to be a Southern Hemisphere Heathen? I really think it would be very enlightening for all of us. :)


Ahem, that might explain where I'm coming from. :confused:

:)

Cheers Bryn!...Aemma :)

[Gooding]

Ohh you're absolutely right too, Psy. And you bring up the excellent point with respect to the AFA: that is its focus. Anybody who has ever been a member of this org will know that it is based on very strong Nordic themes and I could almost safely say is based on a heavily romanticised notion of Viking life, behaviour and belief, if you will. The AFA's entire raison d'être is based on this premise of the 'Viking Ideal'. And I think that this is the AFA's main pitfall to be quite frank (sorry Gooding...I have certain biases that you will more than likely not agree with. No offence, ok? :)). It needn't be so heavily based in Scandinavian themes and imagery. I wholeheartedly agree. The same can be said for most of the Theodish movement as well (which at times claims to be a branch of Heathenry and at other times claims not to be). There is too heavy of an element of romanticisation of a perceived ideal based in one particular Germanic culture or time period in these orgs and not enough of an element on a more timeless and organic pan-Germanicism.

The OR of course is entirely different than the AFA. Though of course the Lore is that which we all have in common, its approach goes beyond pan-Germanicism and more towards pan Indo-Europeanism, which on a personal level works far better for me. :) There is no Scandinavian flavour at the OR; quite the opposite, it is a blending of Anglo-Saxon heathenry but with a whole other spiritual dimension as its focus, and virtually very little 'Scandinavian ethnic' feel to it. I would even dare to say that the OR has more of an 'acultural' bent in this manner, if I can be permitted to state it this way.

You're right Psy...the time is perhaps right for developing something a bit more home-grown here, reflective of our own experiences and cultural realities. But I think the movement needs young people like you to make this happen. It won't come from the leaders of the established orgs, I'd bet you dollars to donuts on that one. :D

Food for thought now eh Psy? ;)

Cheers!...Aemma

Offense??LOL, none at all taken, Aemma.You're probably right, at that.I'm fairly new to the AFA and I largely do my own thing based on Norse models.
Hey,**gasp**,I even enjoy reading Celtic lore and certain Celtic ideas I do keep at the back of my head.:D It's a minor advantage to not actually belonging to a kindred..I do my own rituals based on my own ideas and interpretations.A lot of it's done outdoors.A lot of my stuff is blatant ancestor worship anyway and we all know( I think, by now)that the Norse is fairly minor in my heritage.The English,Irish,Scottish and French figure a lot more in my genealogical charts.The Aesir and Vanir I believe chose me to revere them particularly.Politics in religion?Bah.We are who we are, just as our ancestors before us shaped us.My wife is Kemetic Orthodox, actually :).It makes for an interesting marriage. Idealism I tend to be wary of.No doubt it makes for pretty reading, but it tends to petrify the soul into a mold, an ideal, that prevents further spiritual evolution.The Viking Age was a time of expansion that I think is little more than the earlier time of the Volkerwanderungen.Piracy,trade,invasion,colonizati on,settlement and assimilation into the local population followed a human pattern aeons old.It's easy to look back 1,000 years and romanticize a barbaric period because it's part of our history.The fact remains that at least some of our ancestors served these gods and goddesses and for whatever reason, we feel the urge to follow,as we can in a modern context,their example. I do feel, that for all their imperfections, the Recon movement is our best hope for breaking the psychical and psychological chains imposed on us by the Christian religion.

[Aemma]

Offense??LOL, none at all taken, Aemma.You're probably right, at that.I'm fairly new to the AFA and I largely do my own thing based on Norse models.
Hey,**gasp**,I even enjoy reading Celtic lore and certain Celtic ideas I do keep at the back of my head.:D It's a minor advantage to not actually belonging to a kindred..I do my own rituals based on my own ideas and interpretations.A lot of it's done outdoors.A lot of my stuff is blatant ancestor worship anyway and we all know( I think, by now)that the Norse is fairly minor in my heritage.The English,Irish,Scottish and French figure a lot more in my genealogical charts.The Aesir and Vanir I believe chose me to revere them particularly.Politics in religion?Bah.We are who we are, just as our ancestors before us shaped us.My wife is Kemetic Orthodox, actually :).It makes for an interesting marriage.

You rock Gooding! :):thumb001:

Hey have you thought about including some thoughts and perceptions about a pagan mixed marriage in your blogs...how you raise your child(ren), how you deal with your respective holy tides...that kind of stuff, especially how you're raising your daughter and the spiritual traditions that you have developed for her so far. I think that would make for very interesting reading. :)

More 'homework' eh Gooding! ;) :D

Cheers for now!...Aemma :)

[SuuT]

I don't see too much applicability of it for the closely related Germanic languages, though.


It just seems straightforward to me that we in England should have a little more time for Woden than Wotan or Odin, never mind the linguistic waffle.


As for it not really mattering and all the deities being the same but under distorted names, well, I disagree, the gods were regarded a bit different everywhere. It's a bigger matter than sound shifts. The different tribes experienced very different things in their history, and the attitude to the divine must have been shaped by this.


:twitch::scratch: But...but... this is a perfect extrapolation.

:)

[Freomæg]

what most North American Heathens seem to do is take that general idea to mean that Scandinavian Heathenry is appropriate for all Germanics
Precisely. I don't think there's anything more to it than the fact that most people take "Asatru" to refer to the whole of Germanic Heathenism. It is the most widely-known term for expressing Northern European Paganism. There is no conniving sentiment, just a small, harmless amount of ignorance.

[Osweo]

:twitch::scratch: But...but... this is a perfect extrapolation.

:)

:D

It's all this intellectualising, SuuT; people say common sense things but dress it up in such fancy guise that you can't even realise that you ultimately agree with them! :p

[Hildolf]

Going by some of what is being said here I should I then be a Wodenist and not an Odinist? Should I be only using the English Futhorc? Sorry but they don't resonate with me.

I think the issue of greater importence is that people hear the call of their blood and their soul and adopt a folkish religion. Woden/Odin/Wotan, asatru, heathen, odinist, wodenist,wotanist blah blah. They are all essentially the same thing. And by this I mean the inner essence of what this religion is, arguing over the outer forms is overly pedantic in my view and not as important as simply being a Heathen etc and a folkish one at that.

[Osweo]

Going by some of what is being said here I should I then be a Wodenist and not an Odinist?
Any term ending with the Latin suffix -ist that is adopted as the self-definer for a group that supposedly is trying to find our own folkish way seems a little absurd to me.
To my mind, it should be enough to say "I am an Englishman, and follow the religious way of our ancestors, the Angles and Saxons." The desire to reduce it all down to one word smacks of pure modernism to me. Heathen will do to distinguish ourselves from the Jehovah crowd, but shouldn't be considered a scientific dictionary legal-style exclusive word.

Should I be only using the English Futhorc? Sorry but they don't resonate with me.
Well, forgive me in turn, but it's a good job you say sorry. What are you in this movement for if not as a means of being as true as possible to your ancestors? Our Futhorc should be viewed not in isolation, and the older and cousin varieties should be known, and maybe used on occasion as demanded, but to not find a resonance in specifically our stuff is a worrying sign to my mind.

I think the issue of greater importence is that people hear the call of their blood and their soul and adopt a folkish religion. Woden/Odin/Wotan, asatru, heathen, odinist, wodenist,wotanist blah blah. They are all essentially the same thing. And by this I mean the inner essence of what this religion is, arguing over the outer forms is overly pedantic in my view and not as important as simply being a Heathen etc and a folkish one at that.
I just don't want people to make a laughing stock of themselves. We English do have a Norse aspect, but shouldn't let it dominate the more significant Anglo-Saxon heritage that has given us our name and dictated who we are and how we see the world.

[stormlord]

I just don't want people to make a laughing stock of themselves. We English do have a Norse aspect, but shouldn't let it dominate the more significant Anglo-Saxon heritage that has given us our name and dictated who we are and how we see the world.

Agreed, when I hear Englishmen talking about how English heathenism doesn't "resonate" with them, I get the same feeling I do from (some) Americans who seem to focus on the Scandinavian aspect because they think it sounds "cooler", yeah "vikings rock dude!" it strikes me as somewhat shallow and new ageish, the idea that you can pick an ancestral religion is rather oxymoronic. Just a personal opinion.

[Hilding]

I think the issue of greater importence is that people hear the call of their blood and their soul and adopt a folkish religion. Woden/Odin/Wotan, asatru, heathen, odinist, wodenist,wotanist blah blah. They are all essentially the same thing. And by this I mean the inner essence of what this religion is, arguing over the outer forms is overly pedantic in my view and not as important as simply being a Heathen etc and a folkish one at that.

That is exactly what is done to the overall nationalistic movements my the media, "they're all nazis" etc. Generalization.
Many americans in general seem to view Europe as one country with different states just like the US. What they just can't seem to grasp is that each country have their own set of traditions, own language (mostly), different conditions. Even in small Sweden there are many different dialects and people from the north have a different view on things than those from the south. Why should Woden/Wotan/Oden be concidered the exact same thing/entity/god? They are counterparts in my opinion, not just rewritten names.


Going by some of what is being said here I should I then be a Wodenist and not an Odinist? Should I be only using the English Futhorc? Sorry but they don't resonate with me.

Isn't it a form of betrayal to your heritage to put another futhark or other peoples gods before your own?

[Jägerstaffel]

That is exactly what is done to the overall nationalistic movements my the media, "they're all nazis" etc. Generalization.
Many americans in general seem to view Europe as one country with different states just like the US. What they just can't seem to grasp is that each country have their own set of traditions, own language (mostly), different conditions. Even in small Sweden there are many different dialects and people from the north have a different view on things than those from the south. Why should Woden/Wotan/Oden be concidered the exact same thing/entity/god? They are counterparts in my opinion, not just rewritten names.



Isn't it a form of betrayal to your heritage to put another futhark or other peoples gods before your own?


The point many of us make is that we don't think the other names represent 'another people's gods' and I'd say it seems kind of strange to consider fellow Northern Europeons as 'other people' anyway. And believe me; we Americans are not so stupid to think that all Europeon nations are the same and have the same tradition - but for those of us who look back in time; we do recognize a common ancestry from the same Germanic tribes. It's not generalization if we see it as a firm rooting in our ancestral blood.

I see it as silly to try to form splinter heathen groups based on the fragmented records we have from the Continental and Western Germanic sources. I see that as fragmenting our people when we have common background and ancestry. Is a Swede so different from an Englishman? Maybe in modern times; but certainly not if you take away all the trappings of modern society.

I see no problem with heathens of different nationalities uniting under the banner of the most complete source we have of the SAME folk belief.

My heathen expression, which for the record favours the Scandinavian account, despite my mixed Nordic-Germanic-British ancestry is in no way any less true that of the Scandinavian expression of it.

/endrant

[Hilding]

Jägerzen:

Concidering that you could aswell go even further and say that we are indo-europeans. Then we can include even more people into the mess... Then we can take it another step and go even before the migration period etcetera. If we just go back long enough then we're all apes...

[Sigurd]

Yes they did, still with different names (Wotan and Donar etc). I do understand that scandinavian asatro is probably the closest you can get to germanic mythology since christianity (as you said) came to us last and we managed to preserve more than the rest of Europe.

I haven't read the entire thread, but - that is highly incorrect. Just that more "digging in the past" is needed to find out little tidbits of Lore. Jakob Grimm actually did this quite well in Deutsche Mythologie, which should be considered a standard work. :thumb001:

Other than that, I do believe that the Nibelungenlied is better known and better preserved than its Norse counterpart, the Volsunga Saga. ;)

Of course worship and importance of gods changed from area to area due to needs, but at large most gods are the same, including their names: If you've ever wondered who that Hlodyn is who in Voluspa is named as Thor's mother, look no further than Southern Germany, where we always refered to Frigg as Holda, as well as calling her Perchta and Hertha (the latter sounds a little similar to Nerthus, doesn't it? ;))

The names of gods differing are just a shift in dialect as it were. Odhinn was likely prounced Uothin/Wuothin - quite similar to Woden - Uuodyn and Wodan/Wotan - Uuodan. The Langobards preserved him as Godan - which is tue to a shift from W to G (Bad Godesberg, f.ex. was still called Wuodenesberg in the 13th century). Thor is pulled together from Tho(na)r, and thus already pretty close to Thunar (saxon), Thunor (anglo-saxon) and Donar (general continental).

As such, they aren't different gods at all. It is much like a German called Gottfried would have been named Godfrey in English, or a German called Hagen would have been named Hakon in Norwegian. ;)

[Jägerstaffel]

Jägerzen:

Concidering that you could aswell go even further and say that we are indo-europeans. Then we can include even more people into the mess... Then we can take it another step and go even before the migration period etcetera. If we just go back long enough then we're all apes...

That's a thought, but I find it ludicrous.

There are no indo-europeons anymore, and no one is championing their religion (to my knowledge) but the Germanic tribes exist still and are still of one blood. I'm not proposing we should all become one tribe of Uber-Germanics but I'm sick of hearing that we're foreign. I guess it's an American thing; being of one nationality is a rarity here so we don't have any bias about minor differences in our tradition.

This is an argument I hear time and time again and it disgusts me. I guess I'm just not nationalistic enough for these types of fora. I'm no Pan-Europeon new ager, but I do believe that my folk are of one blood and of one folk religion whether they are German, Dutch, Icelandic, Faroese, Frankish, Saxon, Swiss, Belgian, Austrian, English, Danish, etc.

[Hilding]

That's a thought, but I find it ludicrous.

There are no indo-europeons anymore, and no one is championing their religion (to my knowledge) but the Germanic tribes exist still and are still of one blood. I'm not proposing we should all become one tribe of Uber-Germanics but I'm sick of hearing that we're foreign. I guess it's an American thing; being of one nationality is a rarity here so we don't have any bias about minor differences in our tradition.

This is an argument I hear time and time again and it disgusts me. I guess I'm just not nationalistic enough for these types of fora. I'm no Pan-Europeon new ager, but I do believe that my folk are of one blood and of one folk religion whether they are German, Dutch, Icelandic, Faroese, Frankish, Saxon, Swiss, Belgian, Austrian, English, Danish, etc.

Well my problem might be that I am a bit TOO nationalistic then ;)

[Jägerstaffel]

That's fine, Hilding. Just don't expect me to feel bad to practice my heathenism the way I do; and of course I'll defend it to the grave! :)

I feel I have as much right to the blood in my veins and all that that entails as much as anyone else; despite being a Germanic mutt living in a foreign land.

[Psychonaut]

The point many of us make is that we don't think the other names represent 'another people's gods' and I'd say it seems kind of strange to consider fellow Northern Europeons as 'other people' anyway.

I generally agree with you, but what seems to be happening is that by recognizing other groups as our ethnic cousins, we are assuming that Gods particular to them are also appropriate for us, instead of splitting the difference. For example, in modern Heathenry, veneration of the Irminsul is nearly universal; after all, it is a badass symbol. However, would it not be horribly inappropriate for some one of principally Frankish descent to have anything to do with an Irminsul? Then there's the Njord/Nerthus matter. So many Heathens simply adopt the Scandinavian model and go with Njord, although most of the ancestors of North Americans would've been hailing the female Nerthus. There are just so many places where strict Scandinavism becomes inappropriate for something that is supposed to be Pan-Germanic.

[Jägerstaffel]

I generally agree with you, but what seems to be happening is that by recognizing other groups as our ethnic cousins, we are assuming that Gods particular to them are also appropriate for us, instead of splitting the difference. For example, in modern Heathenry, veneration of the Irminsul is nearly universal; after all, it is a badass symbol. However, would it not be horribly inappropriate for some one of principally Frankish descent to have anything to do with an Irminsul? Then there's the Njord/Nerthus matter. So many Heathens simply adopt the Scandinavian model and go with Njord, although most of the ancestors of North Americans would've been hailing the female Nerthus. There are just so many places where strict Scandinavism becomes inappropriate for something that is supposed to be Pan-Germanic.

It has a lot to do with teachings. I have almost no knowledge of Continental/Western Germanic belief when compared to Nordic - therefore to me; it seems very much appropriate to respect the belief the way I know it.
And when I take the time to read about Anglo-Saxon heathenry or something of the sort; it makes me uneasy to try to picture the gods in a different light - I can't mold them to the way I see fit.

And what of those of us with some Nordic ancestry? Is it allowed for us to practice the Northern tradition? Where do we draw the line? What of me? Do I HAVE to practice North American Anglo-Saxon-Partial Celtic Non-Asatruic Heathenry or something of that sort; despite some Norwegian blood? Would our ancestors have worried this much about it? Did the Geats think the Danes were foreign folks worshipping gods that were particular to them; rather than brethern of the same folk and same folk belief? They are two different nations nowadays...

Yes there is a lot of attention brought to the subject by Heavy Metal music and the whole 'vikings are cool!' thing but whatever brings people into the fold. I would never tell someone how to worship or try to change that which feels most honest to them; it's none of my business. I just get worked up about this.

[Psychonaut]

And what of those of us with some Nordic ancestry? Is it allowed for us to practice the Northern tradition? Where do we draw the line? What of me? Do I HAVE to practice North American Anglo-Saxon-Partial Celtic Non-Asatruic Heathenry or something of that sort; despite some Norwegian blood? Would our ancestors have worried this much about it? Did the Geats think the Danes were foreign folks worshipping gods that were particular to them; rather than brethern of the same folk and same folk belief? They are two different nations nowadays...

My comments aren't really geared towards North Americans of predominately Scandinavian ancestry at all. What bugs me is people neglecting the majority of their ancestry and zeroing in on 1/128 or something similarly small. Honestly in the US, you're hard pressed to find people of predominately Scandinavian ancestry outside of Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota; the rest of the states are mostly British and German. My problem is that Scandinavian Heathenry has become the default model in the US, even though most of us don't have a direct ancestral link to it. It think it's great for people who are predominately of one ethnic group to practice the faith of that group, but for an overarching national organization (like the AFA, AA, Troth, OR, etc.) having a narrow focus on one ethnic expression seems detrimental to the over all Pan-Germanic goal.


Yes there is a lot of attention brought to the subject by Heavy Metal music and the whole 'vikings are cool!' thing but whatever brings people into the fold. I would never tell someone how to worship or try to change that which feels most honest to them; it's none of my business. I just get worked up about this.

Hahahahaha :D

You know, it really shouldn't matter what brought someone to Heathenry, but every time I hear someone say that Amon Amarth made them want to hail Odin, I die a little on the inside. :D

[Jägerstaffel]

I see your point and I do agree ...to a degree. :)

What I don't understand is the splitting of hairs over what is essentially the same religion. It's like comparing Baptists to Methodists - to me they're both White Christers.

And I won't even get started on the Amon Amarth subject... but I agree with you about the nordiphiles in the US. I've met way too many folks who want to argue over who has the bluest eyes or blondest hair; etc.

[Gooding]

Very thought provoking.FWIW, I'm rather of the opinion that a lot of people who are ethnically conscious search for a common strain in the mixtures that many Americans are and the Norse, for many, provide a common strain.My experience is of the British American sort and I'll try to address the issues from that standpoint.What I'm getting out of this thread is that certain people from Scandinavia are hard pressed to understand why certain North American heithinn(or heathen, bloody hell) of largely outlandish ancestry would focus on the Aesir and the Nordic ways when their blood is largely non-Scandinavian.It gets more confusing when you add into it the fact that Asatru includes ancestor veneration.Part of the answer rests in the Pan-Germania ideal(which I haven't even heard of until today) that stresses that even though different Germanic peoples have different names for the gods, the gods being worshipped are the same.For myself, the Norse legends are what I'm familiar with.Would I mind following an Anglo-Saxon system?No, but where and what are they?Could I worship Anglo-Saxon,Nordic and Celtic deities together,or must I be true to the Norse, alone, because they guided me into heathenism?Maybe I should just leave myself open in case Lady Brigid or Lord Lugh should communicate something to me.Or if Freo or Thunor should call out to me.I'm most familiar with the Aesir and Vanir, so I serve them.Should my ancestors call me to a different path, I shall certainly heed Their call, but until then, perhaps I should stay put.I think a lot of our spiritual choices hinge on the information available to us.;)

[YggsVinr]

I am another one who does not particularly like the term Asatru whether it be applied to Scandinavians practicing Germanic heathenism or non-Scandinavians. I've never really used it to define my beliefs, myself. If I were to define myself spiritually I'd simply say that I was more inclined toward Germanic heathenism.

I haven't read the whole thread through so I may very well be repeating others' arguments here, but for me the reason for using the Scandinavian branch as a base is because of the brilliant manuscript tradition Iceland has left us. No other nation, whether Scandinavian or continental Germanic, has left us such a corpus for the study of pre-Christian Germanic religion. Though other Germanic writings like Beowulf, the Niebelungenlied, Hildebrandslied, and even la Chanson de Roland have been left to us, they were heavily christianized unlike the Icelandic sagas and Eddas, so using them allows us to compare and to make a more educated guess on what aspects of the continental works reflect the heathen past and which details were brought in through christianization. By doing this we can deduce many things. It has become evident that Germanics everywhere worshiped their deities (whether Odin or Wotan, Thor or Donar, Nerthus or Ing/Frey and so on) in a similar fashion, offered similar sacrifice accordingly, held similar values. As such there is no shame in a modern day Anglo-Saxon or Frank or Frisian using the texts of his Scandinavian brethren in order to attempt to rediscover the spirituality of his forebears.

I don't think Scandinavians or Icelanders themselves should be put off by this, but rather honoured that their ancestors thought well enough of the poetic tradition and mythology to record it after conversion, and that they played such a large role in providing the entire Germanic folk with a link to a past Christianity has been trying to erase for over a thousand years.

However, I agree that those who are not of Scandinavian descent should attempt to seek out more information on the practices of their forebears. Myself being of Norman descent am a product of the intermingling of Norse and Frankish blood. I've always wanted to learn more about Old Frankish as well as Frankish spirituality, and what little seems left of the language and practices does speak to me. Luckily there are some texts and archaelogical evidence that provide a base, though often pertaining to surrounding peoples like the Saxons and Frisians. However, given the proximity it would be safe to bet that the Franks similarly worshiped Nerthus, Woden among the war-cult, and that Irminsul was of great significance to Frankish heathens. However, I also have no qualms with honouring the Norse portion of my Norman ancestry with regards to my spiritual practices and will continue to honour it every day.

[Hildolf]

That is exactly what is done to the overall nationalistic movements my the media, "they're all nazis" etc. Generalization.
Many americans in general seem to view Europe as one country with different states just like the US. What they just can't seem to grasp is that each country have their own set of traditions, own language (mostly), different conditions. Even in small Sweden there are many different dialects and people from the north have a different view on things than those from the south. Why should Woden/Wotan/Oden be concidered the exact same thing/entity/god? They are counterparts in my opinion, not just rewritten names.



Isn't it a form of betrayal to your heritage to put another futhark or other peoples gods before your own?

I don't see how the generalization made about nationalists and what we are talking about can be equated? I'm not talking about generaliztions. I'm not saying everyone should call themselves a Heathen etc.

I find the idea that Odin/woden/Wotan could be different as ludicrous. Sorry but is the spiritual world full of every god imaginable? They clearly are the same God, even a brief study reveals this.

You are to wrapped up in the outer forms of the different branches of this religion for my liking as are others here. A betrayel of my heritage would be to worship JHVH or Allah, not Odin.

[Hildolf]

Additionally my understanding which is minimal(for now) of the development of the Futharks is that the Elder Futhark was used within the British Isles and that the English Futhark is a later development.

So my decision to work with the Elder Futhark takes me back in line with the oldest practices of my ancestors. I feel I have much right to work with them as someone of scandinavian descent has, as opposed to them only working with the Younger Futhark. Which if I am only supposed to use the English implies I am only supposed to work with a later development within the tradition. Why should that only apply to the English?

[SuuT]

:D

It's all this intellectualising, SuuT; people say common sense things but dress it up in such fancy guise that you can't even realise that you ultimately agree with them! :p

Yeah, I know you don't like 'intellectualising' :rolleyes:: a point you've made clear over the years:D. However, I maintain, as I have since you and I first began to speak wth one another, that sense is not so common as you would have it be. Equally, I know that some of my poking and prodding is off-putting; but it's, quite simply, meant to get people to think about something in a a novel way.



Anyway, and truth be told, I am Pan-Germanic in orientation: I could care less what people call the gods of our pantheon, as the affect and effect of the gods in the lives of those who identify with these Heathen entities, are as many as their are people who identify (or is that too convoluted? :p): their is no "Catholicism" to any of it. For this very reason, most (insular) Scandinavians would disagree with me; and some would even reject me outright even though my line goes back in this region for nearly 1200 years. Hel, most modern Scandianavian Asatrur would not even consider it possible to practise whilst "off the land" for more than a generation. Which, by default, leaves my children unable to practise as they (with the exception of one) were all born in the states. And I find this absurd.

My whole purpose was to stir-the-pot, as I understand (but have come to view as it as provincialism) the Scandianavian perception, a well as virtually if not all other Germanic perceptions on this issue.


As you know, where it gets hairy for me is when we start filling in mythological blanks with Hiduism/Buddism, then smack a sticker on it that says "GERMANIC".

[Sarmata]

I believe in no Gods...but I have, and wear sometimes hammer of Thor,easy Im not Germanic wanna be it's only souvenir from Wolin isle.
By the way Wikings from Russia identity Thor with Perum(Slavic thunder god), and Thor Heyerdahl had very interesting theories about Germanic gods origin...according him they comes even from Azerbajian(Aesir):eek:

[Heimmacht]

Jägerzen:

Concidering that you could aswell go even further and say that we are indo-europeans. Then we can include even more people into the mess... Then we can take it another step and go even before the migration period etcetera. If we just go back long enough then we're all apes...

If you think your Western Germanic brothers and sisters are thát far from your culture and gene-pool, then you're misguided. Read a little bit more about our connection first and see how scarily alot we have in common, and thén start complaining about minor differences (that has only to do with a different tongue anyway).

If you take a folk like the Frisians for instance, they even used runes and they had a long heathen tradition, if you want to read something about it then search for their last heathen king, Kening Redbad/Radboud. He rather died then become christianized. And theyre OUR folk too.

By the way, have you ever visited a country like Holland before? Because alot of scandinavians were perplexed how much we are alike.

[Beorn]

Thor Heyerdahl had very interesting theories about Germanic gods origin...according him they comes even from Azerbajian(Aesir):eek:


Could make some sense considering the Vikings traded with the region for its superior metals.

[Osweo]

Could make some sense considering the Vikings traded with the region for its superior metals.

But is fortunately ruled out as being pure drivel. :thumb001:


In brief, Germanic Christian monks learn the bible, and the classical traditions that are still respected and used as a frame of reference in the core Roman Christian lands of Italy and Gaul and Iberia. They have a lingering sense of patriotism, and a wish to record something of their ancestors. A genealogy is demanded, linking them to the Classical and Biblical worlds. Horrendous contortions of pseudolinguistic argument are gone through to concoct this.

The Gods were called Aesir. There's an Asia in Classical tradition! There's an Azov on the Black Sea! All getting nearer Biblical lands, and thus closer to Noah's and Adam's genealogical tree. All sorts of nonsensical links are siezed on. Danes sounds a bit like Dan the son of Joseph! :rolleyes2:

However, the most ELEMENTARY linguistic investigation shows Aesir as related to an earlier Gothic Ansu- element (as in my name, Ansuwihaz ;)). Azerbaijan is a late form of Aterapane or whatever it's called, named after someone knocking around in early Hellenistic times. And that's IT! :mad:;)

[Aemma]

But is fortunately ruled out as being pure drivel. :thumb001:


In brief, Germanic Christian monks learn the bible, and the classical traditions that are still respected and used as a frame of reference in the core Roman Christian lands of Italy and Gaul and Iberia. They have a lingering sense of patriotism, and a wish to record something of their ancestors. A genealogy is demanded, linking them to the Classical and Biblical worlds. Horrendous contortions of pseudolinguistic argument are gone through to concoct this.

The Gods were called Aesir. There's an Asia in Classical tradition! There's an Azov on the Black Sea! All getting nearer Biblical lands, and thus closer to Noah's and Adam's genealogical tree. All sorts of nonsensical links are siezed on. Danes sounds a bit like Dan the son of Joseph! :rolleyes2:

However, the most ELEMENTARY linguistic investigation shows Aesir as related to an earlier Gothic Ansu- element (as in my name, Ansuwihaz ;)). Azerbaijan is a late form of Aterapane or whatever it's called, named after someone knocking around in early Hellenistic times. And that's IT! :mad:;)

Reminds me of the bit of nonsense found in Snorri's Prologue of the Prose Edda actually. :rolleyes2:

:)...Aemma

[Aemma]

As you know, where it gets hairy for me is when we start filling in mythological blanks with Hiduism/Buddism, then smack a sticker on it that says "GERMANIC".

I can understand this. :) I really can't see how Buddhism could possibly be thrown into any kind of pan-Germanic or even pan-Indo-European mix quite honestly though. Buddhism is clearly a wholly different Dharmic strain imo. However, I have heard the argument for some recognition of the Vedic influence in pan-Indo-European thought and by inference some offering of a distant relation to Germanic thought. This is more so seen in Heathens who tend towards having a more archetypal/symbolic view of the pantheon as opposed to those that have a more literalist/real entity view.

I'm wondering what you, SuuT, and others here think about this particular question. :)

Cheers for now!...Aemma

[SuuT]

I can understand this. :) I really can't see how Buddhism could possibly be thrown into any kind of pan-Germanic [mix]

Well, people (mostly on the internet, in my experience) do it all the time. This is not to knock Skadi forum in any way, but take a gander at the Heathenry sections therein: IndoEuropean curiosity nearly always kills the Germanic cat.


...or even pan-Indo-European mix quite honestly though.

I tend to agree. I think that the anagenetic and ethnogenetic divergence rather complete at this point, even if of the same 'genera'.

It seems that some are just completely unaware (or unwilling - I really can't say) of when they start sliding down slippery slopes. Then again, this slippery slope is predicated on the imporatance one places on Race: toss that out as the ethnic and meta-ethnic glue, as it were, and - in my opinion - there is not a whole lot that can cease a never ending series of "Pan-" or "Meta-" this or that (i.e. we end up at "Human", at some point. And, well...who gives a shit about that).


Buddhism is clearly a wholly different Dharmic strain imo. However, I have heard the argument for some recognition of the Vedic influence in pan-Indo-European thought and by inference some offering of a distant relation to Germanic thought.

Recognition is one thing; rationalisation another. One will not, indeed cannot find, anywhere in Heathendom, an individual that was raised as a Heathen that places the Vedas over even the oral transmission of (for example) Germanic mythos. Granted, there are not many of us who were raised as Heathens; however, one's Blood should, ought, and often will, out. One can change hearts and minds, but the Blood seems immutable.

As far as "pan-Indo-European thought" - well, I'm not even sure what that is. And as far as 'preservation' (and beyond) is concerned, I have always found it a device that softens lines, makes for weak delineations, and opens the flood gates of conjecture. - none of which have a preservative effect, let alone an advancing one for most people.


This is more so seen in Heathens who tend towards having a more archetypal/symbolic view of the pantheon as opposed to those that have a more literalist/real entity view.

Both are *possible* to possess, however. Wherein, we enter the use of the term "Aryan". Which, for me (in short), denotes the ability to appreciate cross-cultural, inter-meta-ethnic and intra-Racial nobility. The stopping point, the line of "Aryan", is an extremely dangerous one, however; and, as mentioned/implied, impels many down a path of confusion - from which many never return. Indeed a curious psychosis often results.

"Aryan" is a term that I, myself, use in certain circles. But my acumen probably doesn't belong here. Indeed, and truthfully, it is something that should be kept vague, and taboo - out of respect for not only what it is; but, also in deference to the distance between Man, and man.

[Osweo]

I wouldn't have used the word 'distorted' but perhaps 'different'. But I still get your meaning Oswiu. Yes the gods were regarded a bit differently everywhere which one would entirely expect given that heathenry is a tribal religion to begin with. Even within a more homogenised culture, the experiences of the gods and goddesses would have been different among different kin groups. But that these subtle differences exist, does it mean that the deity in particular is very different? I personally don't think so.

The Venerable Grimm has something to say here:
The antiquity, originality and affinity of the German and Norse mythologies rest on the following grounds:
1. The undisputed and very close affinity of speech between the two races, and the now irrefutably demonstrated identity of form in their oldest poetry. It is impossible that nations speaking languages which had sprung from the same stock, whose songs all wore the badge of an alliteration either unknown or quite differently applied by their neighbours, should have differed materially in their religious belief. Alliteration seems to give place to christian rhyme, first in Upper Germany, and then in Saxony, precisely because it had been the characteristic of heathen songs then still existing. Without prejudice to their original affinity, it is quite true that the Germans and the Norse dialects and poetries have their peculiarities of form and finish; but it would seem incredible that the one race should have had gods and the other none, or that the chief divinities of the two should have been really different from one another. There were marked differences no doubt, but not otherwise than in their language; and as the Gothic, Anglo-Saxon and Old High German dialects have their several points of superiority over the Old Norse, so may the faith of inland Germany have in many points its claims to distinction and individuality.

[Aemma]

The Venerable Grimm has something to say here:
The antiquity, originality and affinity of the German and Norse mythologies rest on the following grounds:
1. The undisputed and very close affinity of speech between the two races, and the now irrefutably demonstrated identity of form in their oldest poetry. It is impossible that nations speaking languages which had sprung from the same stock, whose songs all wore the badge of an alliteration either unknown or quite differently applied by their neighbours, should have differed materially in their religious belief. Alliteration seems to give place to christian rhyme, first in Upper Germany, and then in Saxony, precisely because it had been the characteristic of heathen songs then still existing. Without prejudice to their original affinity, it is quite true that the Germans and the Norse dialects and poetries have their peculiarities of form and finish; but it would seem incredible that the one race should have had gods and the other none, or that the chief divinities of the two should have been really different from one another. There were marked differences no doubt, but not otherwise than in their language; and as the Gothic, Anglo-Saxon and Old High German dialects have their several points of superiority over the Old Norse, so may the faith of inland Germany have in many points its claims to distinction and individuality.


Excellent passage to be sure Oswiu. :) It does make one think...

I'm mostly harkening back to some of Psychonaut's recent posts now and how we in North American Heathendom seem forever fixated with a Norse template, for lack of a better term. Unless one is in the Theodish movement in North America, there is very little that would be considered Anglo-Saxon and much less Continental Germanic that appears to be part of our Heathen reality here (with the clear exception of the OR having a certain Anglo-Saxon bent to it admittedly). I really quite envy the fact that your own Heathen practice is steeped in so much of your English Being, if I may, much like I envy SuuT, Vargtand, and Hilding for their Scandinavianness. Your culture (and hence blood) and its indigenous pre-Christian spiritual manifestation is quite physically linked to your soil, whereas we live an entirely different reality in North America. We have been and shall ever be transplants to our respective North American nations, and some of us have been such for a very long time (to wit, my own family has been here in Canada for well over 300 years). I've an added component now to my own definition of, not so much blood (though an argument could be made there too in that many of us in North America are more multi-European, if I may, than not), but more so of soil. Intuitively, my soil here does speak to me of course and quite a bit louder than do my European soil roots. But 'My--Aemma's--Soil' is physically located on two continents. And because of this very schizophrenic nature of My Blood and My Soil, I can't help but be a bit more culturally eclectic, as it were, in terms of identifying in my own limited way which gods and goddesses in fact have claimed me as their own. My troth to my gods and goddesses might not be as soil-bound as your own, but by golly, it sure is blood-bound. :)

Ahh the wonderful challenges of being a North American heathen! :p

Hope this made sense... :)

Cheers for now Oswiu!...Aemma

[Gooding]

As another North American Heathen, this one with roots in the Thirteen Colonies of British North America, I probably should add my voice to Aemma's.When our folk came here, we came with memories of where we came from together with dreams of how we should forge our settlements on a new land.This land has been transformed with love, sacrifice and hard work into a new fatherland where my family and families like mine can claim a heritage.Since the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries,we've labored,fought, loved and died in this hemisphere.Our blood was spilt here, we've loved this land,while remembering our heritage across the sea.Our deities, fae and folk have also been transferred here along with us, giving them also an altered character, appropriate to the folk who love and serve them,here.Yes,I agree with Aemma that our roots touch two different continents and the blood does indeed answer the old Powers of Europe with joy and gratitude, while the soil of North America calls to us also.So, while we don't have the advantage of location,perhaps, we may well have new advantages we've yet to discover.

[asulf]

OH Odin you Alfadhir inspires your son for this post .
Odin, Wotan, Woden ......; it doesn't much matter a thing(matter) to realize it owes d be named(appointed) you see on my index card(form) j put Asatru, because is the dernire " version of our religion to be had resist
And even if pockets here or her(it) survived, the texts which stay in us are Scandinavian and here, in France, the Vikings more knocked l collective unconsciousness than the Germans Voila what is to lose these franks roots by selling his(her,its) soul to the gniark gniark gniark devil (saddened the heathen na not known how to resist )
Odin is in France more known that wotan or Woden it is little important me to give the Scandinavian name of my father, my blood and my Germanic soul neither my Ancestors nor find to criticize in the sight of all this I define myself more as essential Nordissant l the essential is that our Faith our Folk song is heard(understood) and recognized
My Brothers and Sisters, are henceforth enough these pen names splits(cleavages) of clans and tribes because on the plain opposite l armed(equipped) with some buckwheat IS!!!!!!!
And she(it) laughs at our diverse senses of identity, add us for them SOUS DOGS WHICH IT IS NECESSARY TO CONVERT OR TO ANNIHILATE
Ulfhednar whom I am shouts you this let us engrave(burn) our runes on our blades and our shields, let us sing our heroes, let us strike our shields and let us sing our singings(songs) Berserks WE LET US BE AND LET US SHALL REMAIN SAFE(SURE) OUR ANCESTRAL LANDS let us sing our fury crowned in face of our enemies
Let us sing our glory and our warlike inheritance!
Because behind the wall of shields big Ase exhorts us to remain close(plain) in front of the threat which comes Wotan will not forgive us our divisions and our defeat.
that live for ever our people and its tribes
And what sings our scramasax .
I would allow either now or never d to be a sermonizer I am only a full of life warrior of the breath of Odin and if I am here c is that as you all the conservation of our culture and our people holds me heart
As for " yalatolas ' of our faith who want to be able to him(it) in personal purposes I would answer this;
A Roman centurion asked the barbarians:qui is your leader? They answered: WE ARE EVERY LEADERS a word to the wise is enough...

[Cato]

My ancestry says it all, in addition to having Celtic admixture, I'm also of Anglo-Saxon and Danish ancestry- Angeln, the cradle of Angles, Jutes and Saxons is in northern Germany/Denmark.

[Brännvin]

You must remember that the Germanic gods were not only worshipped by Scandinavians historically, but by the ancestors of all Germanic people. Their descendants would include all Germanic-speaking regions of Europe, as well as surrounding areas like Northwestern France, etc etc.

True, though the zoomorphic warrior cults and shapeshifting were typical phenomena in shamanistic Scandinavian Germanic tradition. The Shaman morphs his spiritual and physical attributes to "animal spirit" and connects with the underworld. Odin (but even more so Loki) has clear shamanistic features. Berserk tradition "morphing into wolf" for the battle is pure shamanistic rite. I doubt this kind of rites existed outside of Skandinavian Germanics, there really is no source for shamanistic views in Central Europe.

[Cato]

I don't identify entirely with a polytheistic heathen worldview, but I admit freely that it composes a significant portion of my worldview, just as my worldview is shaped by what call a heroic monism/monotheism (Beowulf gives a perfect example of how poly- and mono-theism meld rather than clash). The worldview of the old heathens is heroic and striving, just as is the lifestyle of the men in Beowulf (who swore by Jehovah, who is a heaven/sky/sun/thunder/war/weather God just like the Aesir/Ese when you strip away the pacifistic salfationism of the Christians), which is far superior to the sniveling views of the crucified sissy called the White Christ. Were I to believe in one God, called Heahfaeder, or many Gods, called the Ese and Wanes, my attitudes would be the same- my external beliefs of the divine are projections of internal values, be God many or one.

Yes, this is suggesting that polytheism and monotheism aren't mutually exclusive. The differences between them are fluid, at least in the transitional phase- such as is in the period of the conversion from heathenry to Christianity (and the deconversion process that is ongoing right now, as Christians become heathens). Those who object, I could just point out such as the Nine Herbs Charm or The Dream of the Rood- heathen material existing within a Christian society.

I personally identify with Anglo-Saxon religion, heathen and non-heathen, but it's often easier to use Scandinavian terms for the sake of clarity and popular consciousness.

Hail the Gods.

[Psychonaut]

I doubt this kind of rites existed outside of Skandinavian Germanics, there really is no source for shamanistic views in Central Europe.

A similar tradition can be seen in the remnants of the pre-Christian rites of the Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Christian_Alpine_traditions). The particular warrior traditions relating to the bear and the wolf might have been a Scandinavian peculiarity, but similar shamanic traditions concerning the wearing of animal skins are universal.

[Cato]

A similar tradition can be seen in the remnants of the pre-Christian rites of the Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Christian_Alpine_traditions). The particular warrior traditions relating to the bear and the wolf might have been a Scandinavian peculiarity, but similar shamanic traditions concerning the wearing of animal skins are universal.

Is there any evidence of connections with animals other than bear and wolf? Boars, horses and ravens prefigure into the lore, for example.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Pallamedes
Is there any evidence of connections with animals other than bear and wolf? Boars, horses and ravens prefigure into the lore, for example.

The boar was a common symbol found on helmets from Scandinavia and in England, one such helmet was found not far from where I live at Benty Grange:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_helmet

The board crested helmet is probably also found referred to in the Havamal:

128.
I tell you Loddfafner, heed you the counsel; Gaze not in the air during battle-humans may walk like boars-Lest you lose your wits.

The boar is a sacred symbol of the Vanir it’s symbolism is most striking in the “wounded king” who is gouged by the boar in his “thigh” a euphemism for his genitals, where from sprung the seed of creation. It’s probable that warriors wearing the boar helm did so taking on the potency of the boar.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Pallamedes
Yes, this is suggesting that polytheism and monotheism aren't mutually exclusive. The differences between them are fluid, at least in the transitional phase- such as is in the period of the conversion from heathenry to Christianity (and the deconversion process that is ongoing right now, as Christians become heathens). Those who object, I could just point out such as the Nine Herbs Charm or The Dream of the Rood- heathen material existing within a Christian society.

The differences are very fluid.

There would have been no northern/Germanic Christianity without it’s willingness to adopt and adapt indigenous beliefs, Christianity really is only a thin veneer on far earlier traditions, it hasn’t had the same impact as it did in the Roman/Mediterranean world.

Let’s also not forget that Christianity is in no way “pure” nor is it in any way original, much of the early Jewish material can be found in several near by cultures, not least the Zoroastrian faith of the Persians, who probably gave the early Jews many of their concepts regarding heaven, hell, demonology. Jesus is just another shaman-king, psychopomp, found in practically all mythological traditions, Odin and Yama bare many similarities as does Thoth-Hermes Trismegistus.

I use Scandinavian terms in so far as its habit, of course most of what remains of our lore is Icelandic but I don’t feel restricted by that. I study the Anglo-Saxon indigenous beliefs out of academic interest but I don’t feel compelled to re-create it, I’m not a 6th century Anglo-Saxon, nor a Viking, I’m a 21st century English man, I’m sure the Vikings didn’t feel the need to re-create their ancestors ways, they adapted and were innovators, time moves on, fashions change, if Odinism is to have any future beyond that of a tiny number of people then it needs to introduce a spirituality/philosophy that is something Folk can re-late to today. That isn’t saying ignore our ancestry, ancestry is our one constant, but we need to be working towards the future not living in the past. That’s how I see it.

[Brännvin]

A similar tradition can be seen in the remnants of the pre-Christian rites of the Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Christian_Alpine_traditions). The particular warrior traditions relating to the bear and the wolf might have been a Scandinavian peculiarity, but similar shamanic traditions concerning the wearing of animal skins are universal.

True, not denying their statement, my mistake was to have widespread but what could I have said that the zoomorphic warrior cults form (Berserk tradition) was unique between ancient Scandinavians within the "Germanic world" at least what is officially documented, that was the my point.

Moreover the druidism of Celts has it roots in strong shamanistic tradition.

[Cato]

I'll use standard terminology here and distinguish between God (the One) and the gods (personified aspects of the One). This is how I view religion, that there is but a single [supreme] God who can be understood either monotheistically or as a fragmented essence (= polytheism).

Such a doctrine isn't found within Asatru to my knowledge, but I hold to it. The implications of either a random, naturally-occuring cosmos or a cosmos with multiple divine beings within it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The former makes about as much sense as the argument of the old atomists and the latter brings up the idea of conflicting diving wills.

[Arahari]

I really feel that I must ask, (no disrespect or patronizing intended!!!) why do non-scandinavians practice asatru? Arent there more suitable heathenism avaliable from your own parts of the world?
I'd like to again stress the fact that I'm not trying to insult anybody, this is a question that has been in my head for a long time and now I have the chance to ask it out loud.

May I ask what do you mean by the term "asatro"? If you are referring to the more general term "asatru" then surely as this term simply means loyal, faithful or true to the aesir[Gods] then this can apply to anyone who is genetically descended from any of the Germanic-not just Scandinavian or North Germanic peoples?
The Gods of Scandinavia have their parallels in the wider Germanic world and there are specific variations of this faith, eg Wodenism, Wotanism, Odinism, Irminism, Armanism etc.
In my case being of both German and English descent with a small Celtic admixture on my English side I belong to an organisation called Woden`s Folk which is a form of Odinism adapted specifically to English people although other Teutons are more than welcome to join us.
I am the warder of a local Woden`s Folk gemoot called Northlands, which is the most northern outpost of our organisation.

http://www.wodensfolk.org.uk/

[Baron Samedi]

May I ask what do you mean by the term "asatro"? If you are referring to the more general term "asatru" then surely as this term simply means loyal, faithful or true to the aesir[Gods] then this can apply to anyone who is genetically descended from any of the Germanic-not just Scandinavian or North Germanic peoples?
The Gods of Scandinavia have their parallels in the wider Germanic world and there are specific variations of this faith, eg Wodenism, Wotanism, Odinism, Irminism, Armanism etc.
In my case being of both German and English descent with a small Celtic admixture on my English side I belong to an organisation called Woden`s Folk which is a form of Odinism adapted specifically to English people although other Teutons are more than welcome to join us.
I am the warder of a local Woden`s Folk gemoot called Northlands, which is the most northern outpost of our organisation.

http://www.wodensfolk.org.uk/

Those Wodensfolk people are a bunch of nutters....

What the hell does the "Grail Mythos" have to do with heathenry?

Seriously, folks....

[Lutiferre]

I really feel that I must ask, (no disrespect or patronizing intended!!!) why do non-scandinavians practice asatru? Arent there more suitable heathenism avaliable from your own parts of the world?
I'd like to again stress the fact that I'm not trying to insult anybody, this is a question that has been in my head for a long time and now I have the chance to ask it out loud.
Good question. There was not historically any one Germanic belief, nor even any one Scandinavian (or even Danish!) belief, but many different cults with different views, loyalties and practices to different gods.

I find it bizarre why anyone inside Scandinavia (and even more so, outside of Scandinavia!) would take up some reconstructed model which doesn't even itself represent Scandinavia but only a reconstruction of some isolated cultic practice which -supposedly- should represent some actual cult out of the many cultic differences within Scandinavia.

It's clear that such a bizarre phenomenon could only occur in this decadent modern age.

[Psychonaut]

It's clear that such a bizarre phenomenon could only occur in this decadent modern age.

Because honoring your ancestors and their Gods is clearly more bizarre than getting down on your knees before a dead Jew nailed to a piece of wood who promises to raise up your corpse at some point in the future if you subvert your will to his. :crazy:

[Lutiferre]

Because honoring your ancestors and their Gods
Who says it's your ancestors gods? It's only an artificial approximation at something that might be in the same cultural sphere as your ancestors gods. You don't have any kind of ancestral version of Apostolic Succession. For all you know, they could be a part of a widely different cultic practice which was even in war and death feud with a cult that is closer to the one you profess. We will never know.

is clearly more bizarre than getting down on your knees before a dead Jew nailed to a piece of wood who promises to raise up your corpse at some point in the future if you subvert your will to his. :crazy:
At least, I don't resort to such worthless caricatures to characterise the actual beliefs about the gods of the original Germanic heathens.

[ikki]

I couldn't help but notice, you are partially Finnish. Did the ancient Finns worship Odin as well? And if not, how are you reconciling the fact that only some of your ancestors bowed down to this religion? :)

Another point I have to make, is that Germanic gods are not Scandinavian-owned (you say "our" traditions and "our" names). For example, when the Dutch worship Odin they are worshipping a Dutch/Germanic god, not a Scandinavian one. Scandinavians are only part of Germandom (albeit the purest part, you have no argument from me on this).

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/christy/32/frnjtre.html viking royal lines according to the sagas ;)

[Nationalitist]

I wonder why no non-Slav practices Slavic paganism? :confused:

[Cato]

I wonder why no non-Slav practices Slavic paganism? :confused:

Or why people in no way connected with Greece and Rome worship the Olympians. Who knows, but for me the old heathenry is just what it is- the old heathenry. I belong to the Asatru Folk Assembly, but I don't really consider myself to be a hardcore polytheist. It's the attempt to rebuild a folkish, ethnocentric world with the appropriate mindset that interests me the most- and such a worldview can be rebuilt along, say, old Anglo-Saxon Christian just as easily.

[Germanicus]

Because honoring your ancestors and their Gods is clearly more bizarre than getting down on your knees before a dead Jew nailed to a piece of wood who promises to raise up your corpse at some point in the future if you subvert your will to his. :crazy:

Great post....:thumb001:

[Nationalitist]

There are some people here who study ancient Slovenian faith, sometimes they revive some old rituals which they believe are "pagan", but I think this is most unrelated to neo-paganism that is popular in Europe today and which is more or less Germanic (some Slavs have copied the trend). Neo-paganism has origins in German(ic) romantic nationalism of 19th century* and is totaly alien to my nation. Just like skinheadism (originating in anglosphere if I'm not mistaken) and recycled national socialism.

I have to point out that people who actualy know something about paganism and are interested in the subject very rarely subsribe to some over-simplified anti-Christiany, as it is often the case with neo-pagans. At least here. Every single neo-pagan I met didn't have much clue about Slovenian/Slavic paganism. It's just a fashion for them, or a cheap way to attack Christianity as "alien" or "Jewish". That's my experience with "paganism".

*This is probably also the reason why Germanic/Scandinavian (neo-)paganism is so popular.

[Nodens]

At least, I don't resort to such worthless caricatures to characterise the actual beliefs about the gods of the original Germanic heathens.

You instead resort to worthless (and downright bizarre) caricatures to characterize the actual teachings of a quasi-historical religious reformer from First Century Palestine.

[Vargtand]

Good question. There was not historically any one Germanic belief, nor even any one Scandinavian (or even Danish!) belief, but many different cults with different views, loyalties and practices to different gods.

I find it bizarre why anyone inside Scandinavia (and even more so, outside of Scandinavia!) would take up some reconstructed model which doesn't even itself represent Scandinavia but only a reconstruction of some isolated cultic practice which -supposedly- should represent some actual cult out of the many cultic differences within Scandinavia.

It's clear that such a bizarre phenomenon could only occur in this decadent modern age.

Bizarre to praise your own heritage be it a reconstructed model as it may, rather than praise someone else heritage, Christianity is not our heritage it did not come from this lands thus it does not belong in this land.

the revival started as soon as pressure was lifted from the church, you clearly know nothing of history, or do you count the 1800s as a decadent modern age as well? I would not argue against it but then again since the dark ages it has progressively become more decadent, and I would argue that this is due to the presence of your Jew god.

Further more it is bizarre for someone who is interested in cultural and ethnic preservation to be Christian, as it is bizarre for anyone who is interested in cultural and ethnic preservation to be pro mass-immigration, or in favour of I don't know Americanisation or some other guilty sin of the modern world. as the very concept of this outlandish religion is a cultural import which has no base with our folk, even though it has been shoved down our throat it has not merged with us, which is quite clear seeing as how the Scandinavian region is by far the most secular in the world. That should be taken into consideration with scandinavians beeing quite spiritual in general, just rejecting the Christian concept of god.
We are how ever more inclined to keep our folk-believes and superstition which is funny.. because most if not all comes and has it roots in pre-Christian times.

Död åt Vitekrist och alla hans lakejer!

[Vargtand]

There are some people here who study ancient Slovenian faith, sometimes they revive some old rituals which they believe are "pagan", but I think this is most unrelated to neo-paganism that is popular in Europe today and which is more or less Germanic (some Slavs have copied the trend). Neo-paganism has origins in German(ic) romantic nationalism of 19th century* and is totaly alien to my nation. Just like skinheadism (originating in anglosphere if I'm not mistaken) and recycled national socialism.

I have to point out that people who actualy know something about paganism and are interested in the subject very rarely subsribe to some over-simplified anti-Christiany, as it is often the case with neo-pagans. At least here. Every single neo-pagan I met didn't have much clue about Slovenian/Slavic paganism. It's just a fashion for them, or a cheap way to attack Christianity as "alien" or "Jewish". That's my experience with "paganism".

*This is probably also the reason why Germanic/Scandinavian (neo-)paganism is so popular.

But what you describe is something typical for the gray mass, the longing to be part of something, to change the future and yadayada.. same reason why there were so many communists and hippies and shit... you don't actually believe most of them had any clue what it was they were in favour of?

The only reason why christianity has a following is due to tradition (forced tradition but tradition none the less) most people who are christian or most people who say they are... don't really give it much thought, as that is the nature of the grey mass, they do as they have allways done. which is why it is key if paganism and heathenry is to gain foothold is to actually raise as many children as possible heathen, and see to it that this becomes the norm, then and only then can it be a viable thing. as it is now with the few real heathens or serious heathens banding together in small groups, and sinking down trying to rid them self of christian ideals and values... it is a losing battle.

I say as I have always said, it must happen in this order, kill the problem, re-establish rule, and raise children in the new environment, then and only then will we have true heathens again.

The problem being christianity it must be driven off first, and all elements of it must be crushed and brushed away. and those who hold memory of it needs to be silenced, one way or an other.

Re-establish rule, well create and re-establish the framework of the old system, make it functioning, people don't need to believe in it, that is not necessary only that it is convincing enough for children to believe in it.

and the last point is pretty self explanatory.

[Tabiti]

I wonder why no non-Slav practices Slavic paganism? :confused:
There were some Bulgarian lost souls that did that.
Being an Asatru and non-Scandinavian at the same time is just like being non Middle Eastern and christian for me. Yes, christianity is supposed to be a multi-culti world religion, but the recent trend in Nordic and Slavic pagan believes is going to make them the same. For most of that I can blame the Pagan Metal movements, but hope that will pass in few years.
Everyone is connected with the native belief of his nation and should follow only it if wants to call him/herself "Pagan". In other way being "Heathen", "Pagan", "Neo Pagan" and so is pointless or the same like being christian, muslim or buddhist.
Other question is the fact how much we actually know about our ancestors, their real rituals and believes. Pagan cults had no bibles or korans to tell us what to do and when, only parts of ancient writings or travel notes of foreigners, most of which can't be translated fully. No offense, but I think no one today can call him/herself a true traditional Heathen, making the exactly same things his/her ancestors used to. Anyway, all devoted Heathens, no matter Slavic, Germanic, Uralic and so have my deep admiration for keeping the flames of the ancient wisdom alive.

[Vargtand]

There were some Bulgarian lost souls that did that.
Being an Asatru and non-Scandinavian at the same time is just like being non Middle Eastern and christian for me. Yes, christianity is supposed to be a multi-culti world religion, but the recent trend in Nordic and Slavic pagan believes is going to make them the same. For most of that I can blame the Pagan Metal movements, but hope that will pass in few years.
Everyone is connected with the native belief of his nation and should follow only it if wants to call him/herself "Pagan". In other way being "Heathen", "Pagan", "Neo Pagan" and so is pointless or the same like being christian, muslim or buddhist.
Other question is the fact how much we actually know about our ancestors, their real rituals and believes. Pagan cults had no bibles or korans to tell us what to do and when, only parts of ancient writings or travel notes of foreigners, most of which can't be translated fully. No offense, but I think no one today can call him/herself a true traditional Heathen, making the exactly same things his/her ancestors used to. Anyway, all devoted Heathens, no matter Slavic, Germanic, Uralic and so have my deep admiration for keeping the flames of the ancient wisdom alive.

umm.. you can't really do exactly the same thing as your ancestors despite there being documentation, because people don't and have never followed the written word to a point, also how you interpret the written word depends on your mentality, what your cultural values are, what the society is like, hell if it is cold or warm outside, least but not least, your own personal history, and not forget your biology, there are to many factors that influence how something is interpreted that it is silly to use such a definition in that context, a true traditional heathen would be like people are most and behave to what he knew and what limited information he had, and how his parents teaches him to do things.

As for the pagan metal movement, it is a good movement, and it helps with the normalisation, don't shun it it has its value in many ways more value than the scholars and politicians, all are needed.

[Tabiti]

As for the pagan metal movement, it is a good movement, and it helps with the normalisation, don't shun it it has its value in many ways more value than the scholars and politicians, all are needed.
I'm not against Pagan Metal movement itself, but its trend becoming more and more popular. Popular things drag inappropriate people, having their negative contribution to the whole idea.

[Lutiferre]

Bizarre to praise your own heritage be it a reconstructed model as it may, rather than praise someone else heritage, Christianity is not our heritage it did not come from this lands thus it does not belong in this land.
There is much evidence to suggest Germanics (as a culture) didn't "come from these lands", but only arrived here from somewhere in the East, close to the Black Sea region, closer to Palestine than to Scandinavia likely. We, Scandinavians, are not Germanics; the original inhabitants were not killed off. We are the synthesis between the original inhabitants and the later Indo-European culture and immigration, like with many much earlier, and later cultural revolutions.

What matters is not where we came from; our present culture (not to mention race) is a synthesis of many things, coming from many cultural processes in the world. What matters is that we are here.

Christianity is our heritage, it has been in contact with Germanics for the last two millennia, and has been the faith of my ancestors for more than 1000 years. It is what not only their faith, but also their culture has been built up around.

Also, it's humorous that Christianity is somehow alien, but Germanic paganism is not. Even the Germanic paganism has alien origins. Read the Prose Edda. Read the references to "Turkland", and the funny fact that the gods are "Aesir", or in Danish, Aser, which means Asians? Read that Odin comes from "Turkland" (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm)? Don't think for a second that religious leaders and beliefs and cultures didn't travel before Christianity.

You may say I worship a "dead Jew", but that is no more true than it is that Germanic pagans worship a dead Turk. Both of which, obviously, are untrue caricatures, since they fail to take notice of what is important about either faiths. What is important is not the ethnic origin, but the character, the story, the meaning in it, and the truth in that meaning. Only superficial ethnocentrism will reject the truth and meaning of someone or something on the grounds of their ethnicity.


Further more it is bizarre for someone who is interested in cultural and ethnic preservation to be Christian,
Our culture is not Christian nor Asatru; it is largely secular with French Revolution ideals, but with closest cultural and metaphysical ties to Christianity when it comes to religion.


as it is bizarre for anyone who is interested in cultural and ethnic preservation to be pro mass-immigration, or in favour of I don't know Americanisation or some other guilty sin of the modern world.
Yet, most people who are against mass immigration are happy to partake in the cultural suicide of Americanisation. The American poision has been flowing in for the last 100 years, and our spiritual death started long before immigration became a problem.


how the Scandinavian region is by far the most secular in the world.
The seeds of secularisation were planted already with the Protestant reformation, and has only been in acceleration since then.

[Liffrea]

Indo-European origins is a contentious subject, I would add that those who suppose non-Scandinavians shouldn’t practise “Scandinavian” belief how they go on when they realise that the basis of much of indigenous European belief in general comes from an amalgamation of beliefs brought into Europe from the agricultural bearers of the Near East and/or from migrants from the Eurasian Steppe lands?

Any serious study of Indo-European spiritual beliefs immediately shows a great degree of commonality from India in the east to Ireland in the west, far more than coincidence would allow. As an Odinist I use the Icelandic texts because they contain the world view of my ancestors, not just the world view of a few thousand people on a bleak island in the north Atlantic, the same as the Indian Vedas contain a wealth of knowledge that was, in my view, undoubtedly held by the Aryan horsemen who left the Eurasian Steppe land in the 5th century BC.

Indo-European beliefs is a tree with many branches, but a common root, it finds expression in a myriad ways, but to pretend the fundamentals only pertain to one branch is just stupidity in my opinion.


Originally Posted by Lutiferre
What is important is not the ethnic origin, but the character, the story, the meaning in it, and the truth in that meaning. Only superficial ethnocentrism will reject the truth and meaning of someone or something on the grounds of their ethnicity.

This is an interesting point, I believe if you study comparative mythology you find commonality, I’m not sure we could go as far as Joseph Campbell and postulate one common myth that was later disseminated between different ethnicities and races, maybe, maybe not, but certainly we can see common myths. Jesus is one such myth who is found in many, if not, all mythological cycles (and I see the Bible as a mythological cycle itself i.e. universal truth in symbolic form as opposed to literal). In Germanic lore Odin plays a relatively similar part, Yama does amongst the Hindu religion. The comparison of Mary with Frigg/Freyja was more than just whim I think.

In my view Christianity isn’t wrong or a lie, it does express truth(s) but one that finds its basis within the Hebrew people’s i.e. their particular world view and understanding of universal truth, for the Indo-Europeans a different expression of that same basic truth developed, similar in basis yet acquiring unique expression according to particular world views, expression of culture is surely world view, world view is variable from ethnicity to ethnicity. At least that’s how I see it, I’m not anti-Christian, I enjoy reading the Bible as yet another expression of truth through myth, but I see no need to follow that truth expressed through an alien people, the Hebrew, when, as a northern European Englishman I have access to our own version of that truth. If you understand my meaning.

[Nodens]

Why do I see statements that I did not make attributed to me?

[Skandi]

Why do I see statements that I did not make attributed to me?

You mean your not Vargtand???

I see which ones you mean They are from This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88954&postcount=103) post of Vartand. An error in code I think.

[Brännvin]

Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ? Is there any proof outside the Bible that Jesus even existed?


Christianity is our heritage, it has been in contact with Germanics for the last two millennia, and has been the faith of my ancestors for more than 1000 years. It is what not only their faith, but also their culture has been built up around.


True to a certain extent, but on the cultural aspect.

[Lutiferre]

Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ? Is there any proof outside the Bible that Jesus even existed?
The New Testament itself records the existence of Jesus. Not only in the Gospels but also the epistles and writings of the Apostles. And, yes, there is evidence for Jesus outside of the NT, but only later evidence, though you will find most historical documentation in the ancient world is often from later sources using earlier (written) source material and oral tradition which is ultimately from a contemporary source. For instance, by far most of what we know about the Roman Emperor Tiberius of Jesus time comes from later sources after his death, and he is a significantly more powerful and important figure in the Mediterranean world at this time. We know more about Jesus from sources closer to his life than even Tiberius, and we know more about Jesus closer to his life than any other Jewish or pagan religious leader of the first century.


In my view Christianity isn’t wrong or a lie, it does express truth(s) but one that finds its basis within the Hebrew people’s i.e. their particular world view and understanding of universal truth, for the Indo-Europeans a different expression of that same basic truth developed, similar in basis yet acquiring unique expression according to particular world views, expression of culture is surely world view, world view is variable from ethnicity to ethnicity. At least that’s how I see it, I’m not anti-Christian, I enjoy reading the Bible as yet another expression of truth through myth, but I see no need to follow that truth expressed through an alien people, the Hebrew, when, as a northern European Englishman I have access to our own version of that truth. If you understand my meaning.
I don't think Christianity is just a myth. I believe it's a combination of history, symbol, myth, and everything in between. Jesus himself used parables/"myths" to explain truth. Nor do I think all myths are the same, nor expressions of the same thing. I think some myths are expressions of the same thing. But myths have different takes on truth and existence, and therefore I think we cannot compare them completely. Further, Christianity is not just from the "Hebrew people", but also from Jesus (a Galilean, Galileans being seen as racially non-Jewish by Jews), and from the important Hellenic aspect of the interpretation of Christianity. Christianity is not just one thing for one people, but in general a project of truth of the entire Mediterranean world and beyond. Jesus himself expressed the universal (Catholic) scope of his message, and his prophecy on this area came true.

[Vargtand]

There is much evidence to suggest Germanics (as a culture) didn't "come from these lands", but only arrived here from somewhere in the East, close to the Black Sea region, closer to Palestine than to Scandinavia likely. We, Scandinavians, are not Germanics; the original inhabitants were not killed off. We are the synthesis between the original inhabitants and the later Indo-European culture and immigration, like with many much earlier, and later cultural revolutions.

And what evidence would that be? I have yet to hear this theory, tell me is that the rantings of some loony scholar that no one takes serious? that pretty much sound like what it is. you do know that there are fools that have theories of all sort of things, you should look for what merit this master theorist has for creditability before you decide what to believe in, or are you the sort of person that believes the first thing you are told?


What matters is not where we came from; our present culture (not to mention race) is a synthesis of many things, coming from many cultural processes in the world. What matters is that we are here.

Are you stupid? Of course it matters where we come from, though you bringing this up is even more silly as it is already established that "asatru" belongs to the Scandinavian people. many of our ways and our tradition are not Christian that you believe they are makes you a fool, and nothing else. even the fact that we celebrate Christmas is a heritage from our previous religion, and our customs, midsummer as well, that we celebrate birthdays is something that was not liked by the Christian establishment, yet it survives and is celebrated, that we eat the pig at Christmas is not something that is a Christian thing, nor is our beliefs in elves, and gnomes and the like, though admittedly superstition has decreased in the last 100 years, still it survives...


Christianity is our heritage, it has been in contact with Germanics for the last two millennia, and has been the faith of my ancestors for more than 1000 years. It is what not only their faith, but also their culture has been built up around.


Yes it has been in contact with germanics for less then 2000 years, it has been our religion for 1000 years, would you say that Islam is our culture and heritage as well, as I was certainly born in a country which had muslims, are the arabs my kin, are the Chinese kin to us? they are certainly part of our modern country, by your definition they must be, I would argue not.
for something to be ours it must come from us, our culture is what our ancestors created, the parts of Christianity that our ancestors created that is our culture, but it is to be honest a perversion of our ancestral faith, repackaged. that is our culture.


Also, it's humorous that Christianity is somehow alien, but Germanic paganism is not. Even the Germanic paganism has alien origins. Read the Prose Edda. Read the references to "Turkland", and the funny fact that the gods are "Aesir", or in Danish, Aser, which means Asians? Read that Odin comes from "Turkland" (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm)? (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm%29?) Don't think for a second that religious leaders and beliefs and cultures didn't travel before Christianity.
Haha oh humour me... do you have any understanding for language and how it developes? clearly not, you take a modern translation of an old word, and compares it to an other existing modern word and say, they look alike they must be the same. Take Swedish for instance, two modern words
Tomten and Tomten, one means Plot the other means santa, go back to school child.


You may say I worship a "dead Jew", but that is no more true than it is that Germanic pagans worship a dead Turk. Both of which, obviously, are untrue caricatures, since they fail to take notice of what is important about either faiths. What is important is not the ethnic origin, but the character, the story, the meaning in it, and the truth in that meaning. Only superficial ethnocentrism will reject the truth and meaning of someone or something on the grounds of their ethnicity.

As for your so called fact that we worship a Turk, you have not provided any evidence of this, you have provided one story that I have not even had the pleasure of looking at the original words. which tells me naught. you should go back to school and actually study what you read.

And clearly you have not even a clue that we did not use Turk for that region it had a completely different name, land would be the only thing in common here, you have not enough knowledge to determine what and where it points, as by your previous example you made it clear that you don't understand languages at all and how they work, do not make it so painfully obvious that you are so young and don't have a clue of what you speak.

Asar, or As in modern swedish of both god (old type) and corpse. But take a look here:

Concerning the god from:
http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/show.phtml?filenr=1/17/4232.html
concerning the corpse form:
http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/show.phtml?filenr=1/17/4233.html

If you have anything in that head of yours you'll shut up about things that you do not grasp.

That you worship a dead Jew is true if you worship Jesus, that is completely true.

[Lutiferre]

As for your so called fact that we worship a Turk, you have not provided any evidence of this, you have provided one story that I have not even had the pleasure of looking at the original words. which tells me naught. you should go back to school and actually study what you read.

And clearly you have not even a clue that we did not use Turk for that region it had a completely different name, land would be the only thing in common here, you have not enough knowledge to determine what and where it points, as by your previous example you made it clear that you don't understand languages at all and how they work, do not make it so painfully obvious that you are so young and don't have a clue of what you speak.

Asar, or As in modern swedish of both god (old type) and corpse. But take a look here:

Concerning the god from:
http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/show.phtml?filenr=1/17/4232.html
concerning the corpse form:
http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/show.phtml?filenr=1/17/4233.html

If you have anything in that head of yours you'll shut up about things that you do not grasp.

That you worship a dead Jew is true if you worship Jesus, that is completely true.

Well, "aser" was not the point really, though the etymology of that word might be interesting (in that it has come to mean "god" in the nordic mythology). The point is that the Prose Edda says Odin comes from distant lands, specifically Turkland which is "in the center of the Earth".

But theres not much point arguing with your kind, since I am sure you will deny anything generally accepted by scholars, like the Eastern source for IE languages or central components of Germanic mythology.

[Vargtand]

Well, "aser" was not the point really, though the etymology of that word might be interesting (in that it has come to mean "god" in the nordic mythology). The point is that the Prose Edda says Odin comes from distant lands, specifically Turkland which is "in the center of the Earth".

But theres not much point arguing with your kind, since I am sure you will deny anything generally accepted by scholars, like the Eastern source for IE languages or central components of Germanic mythology.

My kind? You are the one who are uneducated, you make claims that you can not back up, you are not pointing at things generally accepted by scholars.

And where would the center of the earth be without knowledge of 2 thirds of the earth? you are looking at ancient writing with modern eyes you can not do this, well obviously you can but you will not get it right, you must read it as it was intended to be read, with the knowledge that existed back then.

The word entymology perfectly illustrates this that you don't grasp the basics, Is turk a native word to scandinavia? did the ottomans refere to the selfs as turks? were they refered to as turks 500 years ago? 1000 years ago? or say 8000 years ago when our people came here? which brought with it the raw form of our religion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Map-TurkicLanguages.png

here is a map of where Turkic languages are spoken today... seems to correspond with areas of where indo-europeans where supposed to come from, perhaps the word Turk was something that existed way back then?
or was it a word that existed or was developed for something else and then it died... hard to say.

Turk is how ever not a Scandinavian word it is a loanword, and not a loan word in Norse times, hell I doubt you'd find it before 1500, (this I am saying without any facts that is just speculation from my part.)

But please inform me what my kind is, as surely you don't think I'm a heathen or pagan, I'm not religious at all, I have great love for my heritage but going by a religion which I do not believe in the spiritual side is silly, that is like calling my self a protestant just because I have yet to leave the state church.

[Lutiferre]

And where would the center of the earth be without knowledge of 2 thirds of the earth? you are looking at ancient writing with modern eyes you can not do this, well obviously you can but you will not get it right, you must read it as it was intended to be read, with the knowledge that existed back then.
Well, you are pretty much twisting my point there. The concept of the "center of the earth" doesn't need to involve knowledge of the entire earth, and I never said so. the Turkic peoples are not actually in the center of the earth, but a limited knowledge of geography would make that belief plausible.


The word entymology perfectly illustrates this that you don't grasp the basics, Is turk a native word to scandinavia? did the ottomans refere to the selfs as turks? were they refered to as turks 500 years ago? 1000 years ago? or say 8000 years ago when our people came here? which brought with it the raw form of our religion
The Germanic paganism has had many different stages, with many changes in ritual, practice and belief (many of which we have very limited knowledge of) and is not 8000 years old as such. The Germanic mythology we know of today represents only a fragment and a final, and very late/decadent stage of Germanic paganism.

As to "Turk"; the Turks were referred to as Turks (albeit in a different philological form) long before Turkey was founded, and long before the Prose Edda was written, even as much as a thousand years antecedently.

c.1300, from Fr. Turc, from M.L. Turcus, from Byzantine Gk. Tourkos, Pers. turk, a national name, of unknown origin. Said to mean "strength" in Turkish. Cf. Chinese tu-kin, name given c.177 B.C.E. as that of a people living south of the Altai Mountains (identified by some with the Huns). In Persian, turk, in addition to the national name, also could mean "a beautiful youth," "a barbarian," "a robber." Meaning "person of Irish descent" is first recorded 1914 in U.S., apparently originating among Irish-Americans; of unknown origin (Ir. torc "boar, hog" has been suggested). The country name Turkey (c.1369) is from M.L. Turchia.


Turk is how ever not a Scandinavian word it is a loanword, and not a loan word in Norse times, hell I doubt you'd find it before 1500, (this I am saying without any facts that is just speculation from my part.)
The Prose Edda says that Odin came from beyond Troy in a place called Turkland, and we know Troy is a location in Turkey, and "beyond Troy" would at any rate be Turkic. It gives some pretty accurate geographical descriptions of mountain ranges as well.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Troas.png

[Vargtand]

It speaks about Odin having great holdings there

There goes a great mountain barrier from northeast to southwest, which divides the Great Svithjod from other kingdoms. South of this mountain ridge is not far to Turkland, where Odin had great possessions.


17. Turkland was usually supposed to mean Moldau and Wallachia. Some, who regard the great mountain barrier as being the Ural Mountains, think Turkland is Turkistan in Asia. Asia Minor is also frequently styled Turkland.


Odin had second sight, and his wife also; and from their foreknowledge he found that his name should be exalted in the northern part of the world and glorified above the fame of all other kings. Therefore, he made ready to journey out of Turkland, and was accompanied by a great multitude of people, young folk and old, men and women; and they had with them much goods of great price. And wherever they went over the lands of the earth, many glorious things were spoken of them, so that they were held more like gods than men. They made no end to their journeying till they were come north into the land that is now called Saxland; there Odin tarried for a long space, and took the land into his own hand, far and wide.

In that land Odin set up three of his sons for land-wardens. One was named Vegdeg: he was a mighty king and ruled over East Saxland; his son was Vitgils; his sons were Vitta, Heingistr's father, and Sigarr, father of Svebdeg, whom we call Svipdagr. The second son of Odin was



For that sake, this is not the same odin as the god, there is a mythological king of sweden who is called odin as well.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_kings_of_Sweden


Kings

* Gylfi
* Odin
* Njord
* Yngvi-Frey
* Fjölnir (end of 1st c. B.C., according to Grottisongr)
* Sveigder (1st century AD)
* Vanlade
* Visburr
* Domalde (2nd century?)
* Domarr
* Dyggve
* Dag the Wise/Dagr Spaka (3rd century?)
* Agne (4th century?)
* Erik and Alrik
* Yngvi and Alf
* Hugleik
* Haki
* Jorund (4th century?)
* Aun, Halfdan and Ale the Strong (4th and 5th c.)
* The line of Swedish kings is continued in Semi-legendary kings of Sweden.

As you can see they are not the same people.. it does not fit the timeline.


To sum it up, you're an idiot who does not research what he claims you speak about a king and think our ancestors worshipped him because of his name, just look at the number of Tors, or Thors in denmark, sweden and norway are they all gods as well?

I told you don't speak about stuff you do not know.

[Lutiferre]

It speaks about Odin having great holdings there

There goes a great mountain barrier from northeast to southwest, which divides the Great Svithjod from other kingdoms. South of this mountain ridge is not far to Turkland, where Odin had great possessions.


17. Turkland was usually supposed to mean Moldau and Wallachia. Some, who regard the great mountain barrier as being the Ural Mountains, think Turkland is Turkistan in Asia. Asia Minor is also frequently styled Turkland.


Odin had second sight, and his wife also; and from their foreknowledge he found that his name should be exalted in the northern part of the world and glorified above the fame of all other kings. Therefore, he made ready to journey out of Turkland, and was accompanied by a great multitude of people, young folk and old, men and women; and they had with them much goods of great price. And wherever they went over the lands of the earth, many glorious things were spoken of them, so that they were held more like gods than men. They made no end to their journeying till they were come north into the land that is now called Saxland; there Odin tarried for a long space, and took the land into his own hand, far and wide.

In that land Odin set up three of his sons for land-wardens. One was named Vegdeg: he was a mighty king and ruled over East Saxland; his son was Vitgils; his sons were Vitta, Heingistr's father, and Sigarr, father of Svebdeg, whom we call Svipdagr. The second son of Odin was



For that sake, this is not the same odin as the god, there is a mythological king of sweden who is called odin as well.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_kings_of_Sweden


Kings

* Gylfi
* Odin
* Njord
* Yngvi-Frey
* Fjölnir (end of 1st c. B.C., according to Grottisongr)
* Sveigder (1st century AD)
* Vanlade
* Visburr
* Domalde (2nd century?)
* Domarr
* Dyggve
* Dag the Wise/Dagr Spaka (3rd century?)
* Agne (4th century?)
* Erik and Alrik
* Yngvi and Alf
* Hugleik
* Haki
* Jorund (4th century?)
* Aun, Halfdan and Ale the Strong (4th and 5th c.)
* The line of Swedish kings is continued in Semi-legendary kings of Sweden.

As you can see they are not the same people.. it does not fit the timeline.


To sum it up, you're an idiot who does not research what he claims you speak about a king and think our ancestors worshipped him because of his name, just look at the number of Tors, or Thors in denmark, sweden and norway are they all gods as well?

I told you don't speak about stuff you do not know.
Actually, it's you who has no idea what you are talking about. Snorri in the Edda is talking of the God Odin, and anyone will tell you this. It traces the ancestry of the Aesir to the Turkland including Odin. The same is the case in the Ynglinga Saga. This is not my saying (http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/norsegodspictures/a/odinmead.htm). The Germanic gods may generally have been quasi-historical persons, and that at least they were considered as such, as the case of Odin here. By the way, funny that you suddenly changed tactic from outright denying that it had anything to do with the lands of the Turks, to starting to investigate my claim. My only point with mentioning it was that religious beliefs travel, just like cultures do, just like Germanic culture (or at least a significant source of it) traveled to Scandinavia from somewhere around the Black Sea, though archaeogenetics will tell you that the people of Scandinavia are descended mostly from the time of the post-glacial retreat of the Allerød oscillation.

[Vargtand]

Actually, it's you who has no idea what you are talking about. Snorri in the Edda is talking of the God Odin, and anyone will tell you this. It traces the ancestry of the Aesir to the Turkland including Odin. The same is the case in the Ynglinga Saga. This is not my saying (http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/norsegodspictures/a/odinmead.htm). The Germanic gods may generally have been quasi-historical persons, and that at least they were considered as such, as the case of Odin here. By the way, funny that you suddenly changed tactic from outright denying that it had anything to do with the lands of the Turks, to starting to investigate my claim. My only point with mentioning it was that religious beliefs travel, just like cultures do, just like Germanic culture (or at least a significant source of it) traveled to Scandinavia from somewhere around the Black Sea, though archaeogenetics will tell you that the people of Scandinavia are descended mostly from the time of the post-glacial retreat of the Allerød oscillation.

The sagas you referred too did not mention odin the god, as it does not fit the timeline at all, but fits into the timeline of a mythological king thank you very much.

as for the 'historical' people, does not fit into the religious version or the creation myth, it does not fit into the religious cosmos. which makes it silly to discuss
Yes this is where one historical person came from which may have added to what folk believed about the gods, could also be just one of several contradicting stories that were preserved, hell there are stories that portray Loki in heroic and kind light. that just go to show that it is not a uniform religion, for that sake some scholars believe there is a historical basis, others who believe there are mythological beings.
some believe odin is queer and so on and so forth, just because it is written does not make the interpretation correct and things get lost and perverted with time blanks are filled in and so on and so forth, as a christian you should know this better than most?

For that sake there is no more reason to discuss this. as there is no way to prove the existence of this person, it is as worthwhile to discuss as bickering about that there are not ten thousand miles to stockholm from here, it is just far, and that is perhaps the basis of that, the story of a king, he came from a far away land, the locals having limited knowledge, oh he comes from down there my cousin travelled down there and so on and so forth it really does not a difference.

As and this is the last time I will discuss this issue with you, it is pointless to discuss the earthly birthplace of a god as the god was never seen as a man, as a wandered at times, but a god and especially a god that created the world, would it not be strange that, that god was born near troy? that breaks all logic if it is about the same person.

And ultimately this is silly and pointless as the main bulk of the religion originated up here and was not a foreign import and forced thing as Christianity was and is.

What you are doing is that you are picking straws and connecting them like a quack. North Germanic heathenism has nothing to do with turkey more than trade and ultimately any cultural imports gained that way...


And finally there is no way of telling if these sagas Snorri wrote down were sagas that were created to explain something unexplained or a story that dates back to when odin came along so to speak... as we humans have a funny way of trying to explain things where there are big blanks.

Enough of this silliness you are referring to some random links on the internet and are drawing childish short-sighted conclusions that are absurd in concept and thought. speak to me again when your brain is more developed.

There is no point to reply to this as I wont reply to you.

[Brännvin]

BTW, Vargtand, what you wrote about Odin is also what has been published by actual scholars

EDIT: Discussion relating to the historicity of Jesus has been moved here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7625)

[Vargtand]

BTW, Vargtand, what you wrote about Odin is also what has been published by actual scholars

Well I try to write as best I remember it.. it is after all the nature of things, theories... different ways of viewing things. :)

[Liffrea]

The supposed Trojan origins of the Aesir documented in Snorri’s Edda can be taken to be either a propaganda device inserted by Snorri, nominally a Christian, or a deeply flawed explanation of long forgotten oral accounts of IE migration.

Personally I think Snorri inserted this story to take credence away from his subject, after all at a time when most Christians were busily erasing knowledge of pre-Christian belief in northern Europe, Snorri was actually committing it to paper for posterity, that sort of thing wouldn’t have gone down well in most Christian communities.

Let's also bear in mind that supposed "Trojan" origins were common fare in ancient lore for the Romans and the Britons, an extension of an ancient tradition to pursue an ulterior motive is not beyond imagination.

[Cato]

The Greeks had legends that some of the survivors of the Trojan War, like Diomedes and Aeneas, ended up in Italy, but it was the Romans who really gave these legends a life of their own, but the connection between Italy and Aeneas seems to be also a native one rather than an imported one. IMO, native legends with some heroic figure in Italy came, in time, to be connected to Aeneas as the Romans and other Italic peoples became more exposed to the Greeks.

[Lutiferre]

Everyone missed my point. Which was nothing more than that culture and myth travels.

[Cato]

Everyone missed my point. Which was nothing more than that culture and myth travels.

Then why can't you see the points that others raise in regards to Christianity, which is merely a collection of culturally-approved and culturally-adjusted myths centered around a new, yet also old, mythic character? :confused:

The figure of Jesus was recreated for the Anglo-Saxons in Heliand, which gives it a Germanized spin. This is myth creation and adaptation and nothing else, just like Saxo's and Snorri's tales of Odin. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliand

[Lutiferre]

Then why can't you see the points that others raise in regards to Christianity, which is merely a collection of culturally-approved and culturally-adjusted myths centered around a new, yet also old, mythic character? :confused:

The points others raise? If someone raises the point that Christianity didn't originate in Denmark, like I raise the point that Germanic paganism doesn't originate in Denmark, then we would both be right. That says nothing about either the historicity of their claims (no such claim is really made in Germanic paganism) or the validity of the teachings. Christianity transcends myth; it encompasses it but is also historical.

[Cato]

Christianity transcends myth; it encompasses it but is also historical.

As I said in another thread, Christians want the best of all worlds; how can you disprove a religion that encompasses even pagan myths into its fold? :confused:

[Lutiferre]

As I said in another thread, Christians want the best of all worlds; how can you disprove a religion that encompasses even pagan myths into its fold? :confused:
I never said it encompasses "pagan" myths "into its fold" whatever that means. That's twisting my words.

I said it encompasses myth, because it uses myth to teach truth. Not "pagan myth", since pagan means non-Christian. With myth, I mean for instance that Jesus used, all the time, parables and myths and stories to explain a greater truth, which is only "historical" by virtue of it's truth, in the sense that this actually happened or can actually happened, and when it does, this or that is true. Or that the Old Testament contains mythical stories which are also historical, things that do happen, to tell the truth about something greater than the mere "literal" story, but about God and Mans relationship to God.

[Cato]

;)

[Rachel]

Everyone missed my point. Which was nothing more than that culture and myth travels.

I frimly agree with this being the main reason for why other parts of northern europe practice asatru... migration and inter marriage in order to create alliances where a large reason why religion went from being in germany to iceland and from iceland to russia... i firmly agree with the fact that myth and culture travles .... its travled to america did it not... which may or may not be in large part the problem of cultrues mixing... and hence why you have new age asatru claiming that anyone regardless of ancestory can be asatru. The travling of cultures and myths while it has deveoloped a nice array of northern european tradtions has been morphed by .. america takeing the idea of a free for all religion and made it into a societal norm ... instead of practicing a faith religion based on your ancestors and their ways.

i am a bit off topic and i am sorry for that ... but it all kinda of came out at once ;)

[Lutiferre]

I frimly agree with this being the main reason for why other parts of northern europe practice asatru... migration and inter marriage in order to create alliances where a large reason why religion went from being in germany to iceland and from iceland to russia... i firmly agree with the fact that myth and culture travles .... its travled to america did it not... which may or may not be in large part the problem of cultrues mixing... and hence why you have new age asatru claiming that anyone regardless of ancestory can be asatru. The travling of cultures and myths while it has deveoloped a nice array of northern european tradtions has been morphed by .. america takeing the idea of a free for all religion and made it into a societal norm ... instead of practicing a faith religion based on your ancestors and their ways.

i am a bit off topic and i am sorry for that ... but it all kinda of came out at once ;)
I wouldn't consider reconstructionism an authentic expression of myth nor culture, so it's not exactly myth or culture "traveling" to America (or elsewhere), but artificial myths and artifical culture being reconstructed from theories in dusty books in various places, like in America. Such artificial construction is unlike 2000 years of organic tradition of Christianity. But even then, artficial myth and culture also travels.

[Loki]

Such artificial construction is unlike 2000 years of organic tradition of Christianity. But even then, artficial myth and culture also travels.

Indeed! See my sig for proof. :coffee:

[Lutiferre]

Indeed! See my sig for proof. :coffee:
I could make a thread refuting every fallacious claim in the Skeptics Annotated bible. I can't be bothered though, and I'm sure someone else with a proper knowledge of Hebrew, Greek and scriptural hermeneutical exegesis has already done it.

If you were only a technical atheist (e.g. without belief), you wouldn't spend a second on refuting other peoples religions by faulty interpretations of their scriptures.

[Loki]

I could make a thread refuting every fallacious claim in the Skeptics Annotated bible. I can't be bothered though, and I'm sure someone else with a proper knowledge of Hebrew, Greek and scriptural hermeneutical exegesis has already done it.

Please do! :) I would be interested in hearing how you can reason away those, logically.



If you were only a technical atheist (e.g. without belief), you wouldn't spend a second on refuting other peoples religions by faulty interpretations of their scriptures.


Problem is, the Bible is so full of gross and negligent errors, it would never stand to be publicised as a serious work today! ;) It's almost as if the editor was drunk. Inspired by the Holy Spirit? More likely spirits!

[SuuT]

... If someone raises the point that Christianity didn't originate in Denmark, like I raise the point that Germanic paganism doesn't originate in Denmark, then we would both be right. That says nothing about either the historicity of their claims (no such claim is really made in Germanic paganism) or the validity of the teachings. Christianity transcends myth; it encompasses it but is also historical.

I've read all of your posts in this thread, but rather than quoting them all and pointing out contradictions I'll assume that everyone else has read them as well, and proceed from there.

The problem with your reasoning (aside from being very convoluted) is that there seems to be no acknowledgment of mythological bottlenecking: the point from and to which any given mythos can be resonably said to originate from. But at the same time, your reasoning indicates that Christianity as you know it was somehow formed in a vacuum; and, today, contains all that it did at inception - having neither added or subtracted anything. - which would make the claim to its organicity false.

Your ideas of importation, travel, and ultimate origination of Asatru, and Germanic Paganism more generally, are predicated - essentially - on the idea that Odin was a 'Turk'; or, and to abstract, Odin, as progenitor, was foreign to the lands in which he made his name. Whether or not this abstraction is true doesn't matter (and also minimises, if not negates, the indigenous evolution of of Odin's will). What matters is that an Order was created there, in the North; it had its development there; it had its refinement there; and invented all of its unique peculiarities there. And was spread from there.


I never said it encompasses "pagan" myths "into its fold" whatever that means.

Do you think that Christianity has elements of Paganism?


I said it encompasses myth, because it uses myth to teach truth.

Every religion on the Earth does. Christianity is not special in this regard.


Not "pagan myth", since pagan means non-Christian. With myth, I mean for instance that Jesus used, all the time, parables and myths and stories to explain a greater truth, which is only "historical" by virtue of it's truth, in the sense that this actually happened or can actually happened, and when it does, this or that is true.

Christianity is not special in this regard.



Or that the Old Testament contains mythical stories which are also historical, things that do happen, to tell the truth about something greater than the mere "literal" story, but about God and Mans relationship to God.

Nothing unique there, either.


I wouldn't consider reconstructionism an authentic expression of myth nor culture, so it's not exactly myth or culture "traveling" to America (or elsewhere), but artificial myths and artifical culture being reconstructed from theories in dusty books in various places, like in America. Such artificial construction is unlike 2000 years of organic tradition of Christianity. But even then, artficial myth and culture also travels.

All religions are results of their artifice; what can be attached to, or removed from that artifice, is a normal and healthy part of the human experience.

[Cato]

For Biblical exegesis, one is much better off if one follows the Jewish sources. IMO, the midrashic commentaries are worth more than any other form of Biblical commentary. Christians and Muslims can only offer outside commentary; the Midrash offers inner commentary, from the perspectives of the originators of the Bible themselves.

Outside religious interpretation of someone else's religious beliefs gets you results like Saxo or Snorri- often biased, almost always inconsistent and incorrect in a lesser or greater way, and, of course, missing the native point of view almost entirely.

Modern-day revisions of ancient paganism and heathenry are, in some ways, like this trend of outside religious interpretation, but the followers thereof really have no choice but to engage in a "best guess" trend of practice and ritual, often with a bit of improv.

[Lutiferre]

But at the same time, your reasoning indicates that Christianity as you know it was somehow formed in a vacuum; and, today, contains all that it did at inception - having neither added or subtracted anything. - which would make the claim to its organicity false.It's organicity lies in the fact that the outer and inner expression of it has been in constant continuity and tradition since it began. There has been no point, in the course of the last 2000 years, in which Christianity was terminated and Christianity was no longer practicised, and Apostolic Succession was broken. To the contrary, in the case of Germanic paganism.


Your ideas of importation, travel, and ultimate origination of Asatru, and Germanic Paganism more generally, are predicated - essentially - on the idea that Odin was a 'Turk';
No. They are not "predicated" on that "idea". The only reason I mentioned it was to point out that it's far from an unreasonable belief that Germanic paganism contains elements that certainly didn't originate in my homeland. The same can be said of Celtic paganism, Roman paganism, Egyptian paganism, etc.

Whether or not this abstraction is true doesn't matter (and also minimises, if not negates, the indigenous evolution of of Odin's will)
I never said it mattered to the meaning or value of Germanic paganism. But it was only an example, which if you ignore the context - namely that myth and culture travels - there is no point in talking about.


What matters is that an Order was created there, in the North; it had its development there; it had its refinement there; and invented all of its unique peculiarities there. And was spread from there.
I agree that matters to the peoples involved. But that is not what matters strictly speaking to the only fact I was pointing out, which was that myth, cults, religion and culture travels.


Do you think that Christianity has elements of Paganism?
Define paganism. If paganism means anti or non-Christianity, then obviously not (because then it wouldn't be an element of Christianity).

If you with paganism, mean any practice from pagan times or peoples, then yes. But that is not paganism in a religious sense, but pagan culture in Christianised form. The New Testament is written in Greek, a gentile language, which was Christianised and forever turned into the language of the Christians, from which Christianity is unseparable. The same is the case for any other gentile element that has been Christianised.


Every religion on the Earth does. Christianity is not special in this regard.
Some do, but not every religion has the same amount of historicity in it's own articles of faith, while having the same degree of symbolism in that historicity.


All religions are results of their artifice; what can be attached to, or removed from that artifice, is a normal and healthy part of the human experience.
Obviously an irrelevant equivocation to what I was speaking about, namely the artifical reconstruction of some practice or cultural item which is dead and whose continuity (succession in organic tradition) has been broken, even by a millennium and has not been passed on in human interpersonal tradition.

[Lutiferre]

For Biblical exegesis, one is much better off if one follows the Jewish sources. IMO, the midrashic commentaries are worth more than any other form of Biblical commentary. Christians and Muslims can only offer outside commentary; the Midrash offers inner commentary, from the perspectives of the originators of the Bible themselves.

The earliest Christians who write the Christian bible were Jews themselves, themselves of the people of the "originators of the bible". Jesus himself was a Jew who made references to the scriptures and the Law all the time. And, I don't know what you mean with "the originators of the bible". You must mean the Old Testament. The New Testament was written in large part by Jews, but also by Gentiles.

[SuuT]

It's organicity lies in the fact that the outer and inner expression of it has been in constant continuity and tradition since it began.

'Continuity' is not the lynchpin of organicity, though. At least insofar as you imply continuity defined as continuous practise. Which is ambiguous.

This notion of organicity is analagous to saying that the first Europeans to populate the New World were not of European descent while traveling the expanse of ocean inbetween continents.


There has been no point, in the course of the last 2000 years, in which Christianity was terminated and Christianity was no longer practicised,

Vague vague vague. Anyway, Christianity has undergone more permutations in 2000 years than any other faith that we know anything about. WIth that said, it follows that not only has Christianity experienced a terminus; but, and what is more, that it has experienced many. For example, there was a point at which Jesus was the only Christian. And then there were 2. etc. etc.


To the contrary, in the case of Germanic paganism.

It's a mistake to draw a circle around one's experiences and self in the sands of time and call it the cosmos.

Moreover, I find this an odd statement as you would be the first Skandinavian I have ever spoken with - in my life - that was more than 2 or 3 degrees of separation away from knowing someone whose family and Heathenry went basically untouched by Christianity.


No. They are not "predicated" on that "idea". The only reason I mentioned it was to point out that it's far from an unreasonable belief that Germanic paganism contains elements that certainly didn't originate in my homeland. The same can be said of Celtic paganism, Roman paganism, Egyptian paganism, etc.

The same is actually better said of the religion that you practise.


I never said it mattered to the meaning or value of Germanic paganism. But it was only an example, which if you ignore the context - namely that myth and culture travels - there is no point in talking about.

I guess I'm having trouble with what the point of your point is, then.


I agree that matters to the peoples involved. But that is not what matters strictly speaking to the only fact I was pointing out, which was that myth, cults, religion and culture travels.

Same thing....What's the point of the point?


...If you with paganism, mean any practice from pagan times or peoples, then yes. But that is not paganism in a religious sense, but pagan culture in Christianised form.

Capricious semantics. Saying nothing, really.




Obviously an irrelevant equivocation to what I was speaking about, namely the artifical reconstruction of some practice or cultural item which is dead and whose continuity (succession in organic tradition) has been broken, even by a millennium and has not been passed on in human interpersonal tradition.

If you point is that myth, cults, religion and culture travels, and said travel is not bound by continuity, then there is nothing pejoratively artificial about reconstructed mythos. Indeed, it could only be called resurrected. Which also is giving you a lot of lattitide.

[Lutiferre]

Vague vague vague. Anyway, Christianity has undergone more permutations in 2000 years than any other faith that we know anything about
In the heresies. Not in the true church.


. WIth that said, it follows that not only has Christianity experienced a terminus; but, and what is more, that it has experienced many. For example, there was a point at which Jesus was the only Christian. And then there were 2. etc. etc.
You miss the point, which I have already written in my post, and is one of continued tradition with Apostolic Succesion in the original deposit of faith.



If you point is that myth, cults, religion and culture travels, and said travel is not bound by continuity, then there is nothing pejoratively artificial about reconstructed mythos. Indeed, it could only be called resurrected. Which also is giving you a lot of lattitide.
Yes, there is. Becuase that a thing travels from one country to another does not imply a discontinuity of that mythos or religious tradition, but rather a continuity with it.

[SuuT]

You have a very linear notion of continuity. But I suppose that you would.

[Lutiferre]

You have a very linear notion of continuity. But I suppose that you would.
In all truth, being anything more than agnostic as to what amont of spiritual continuity there truly is between these modern neo-pagan movements and the real pagans, is less than defendable. We just don't know to any satisfactory degree. With Christianity, we do know, because of the Apostolic Succession of the Apostolic deposit of faith, which continues to live, and which is more in spiritual and linear continuity with it's descendants, and more documented from it's inception than any other religious movement in existence.

[SuuT]

In all truth, being anything more than agnostic as to what amont of spiritual continuity there truly is between these modern neo-pagan movements and the real pagans, is less than defendable.

You don't understand Heathenry. And that's okay.


We just don't know to any satisfactory degree.

You can begin the quest toward knowing by challenging your fixed notion of "spiritual continuity". If Catholics can do it, you can too.


With Christianity, we do know, because of the Apostolic Succession of the Apostolic deposit of faith, which continues to live, and which is more in spiritual and linear continuity with it's descendants, and more documented from it's inception than any other religious movement in existence.

The emboldened part is the only objective aspect of your statement.


Why do Christians feel some compulsion, even on the internet, to come in and poop all over a discussion about Heathenry?

I don't come to your church and piss in your holywater. Your church, anyway.

[Cato]

Perhaps the latter portions of this thread deserve a new thread. :)

[Lutiferre]

You don't understand Heathenry. And that's okay.
I feel more sympathic and understanding of heathenry, than of silly phenomena like groups of people calling themselves "neo-pagans" and pretending to represent genuine Germanic heathenry.


Why do Christians feel some compulsion, even on the internet, to come in and poop all over a discussion about Heathenry?

I don't come to your church and piss in your holywater. Your church, anyway.
I am not even speaking about heathenry, but about "neo-pagans", whose authenticity as representative of my heathen ancestors I categorically reject and deny. I consider them as disgracing my ancestry, a bunch of aliens who just need a hobby.

[Cato]

II am not even speaking about heathenry, but about "neo-pagans", whose authenticity as representative of my heathen ancestors I categorically reject and deny. I consider them as disgracing my ancestry, a bunch of aliens who just need a hobby.

I recognize modern heathens and neo-pagans as forming two distinct groups. The former are often very sincere and the latter are more akin to Wiccan new agers. Just as I've never met a non-Japanese follower of Shinto, I'd be really amazed to find a true heathen who wasn't of northern European background. I've heard of black heathens, but these people seem to think it's a bit of a game of oneupsmanship, and also there's the non-folkish variety of heathenry- which I really lump in with the neo-pagan crowd.

To me, modern heathenry is a particular ethno-folkish expression of the totality of God, with God's attributes being understood in a sort of fragmented, individualized form. I've considered heathenry as a path to truly follow, but it doesn't really appeal to my sense of order (one God with one divine will trumps many Gods with many divine wills). I'm a member of the AFA, which I think is an excellent organization, and sometimes I'll give an offering to Odin or one of the other divinities, but it's not habitual and, I'm sure, that more diehard heathens would call me a ne'er-do-well or black sheep for supporting heathenry on the one hand and a monistic view on the other.

Well, I've many hats to wear, and I wear them well. :cool:

[SuuT]

I feel more sympathic and understanding of heathenry, than of silly phenomena like groups of people calling themselves "neo-pagans" and pretending to represent genuine Germanic heathenry.

But you said the chain was broken. That the whole piece and play, including Heathenry, was over. Dead. Gone.


I am not even speaking about heathenry, but about "neo-pagans",

lol. I suppose its supposed to make someone feel better that you're widening the scope of that which you're pooping on?


whose authenticity as representative of my heathen ancestors I categorically reject and deny. I consider them as disgracing my ancestry, a bunch of aliens who just need a hobby.

Clean-up the posers in your own religion: there is a never ending well-spring of them.

It's rude to enter a Heathenry discussion with the intent on calling it all bullshit. Surely you can understand that.

[Lutiferre]

But you said the chain was broken. That the whole piece and play, including Heathenry, was over. Dead. Gone.
The chain is broken between Germanic heathens and neo-pagans who claim to be "Germanic heathens", yes.


It's rude to enter a Heathenry discussion with the intent on calling it all bullshit. Surely you can understand that.
I don't call Germanic heathenry bullshit; I call neo-paganism BS.

[Psychonaut]

The chain is broken between Germanic heathens and neo-pagans who claim to be "Germanic heathens", yes.

Is your understanding of either really great enough to differentiate?

[Lutiferre]

Is your understanding of either really great enough to differentiate?
Yes and no, and neither is yours (my whole point).

[Psychonaut]

Yes and no, and neither is yours (my whole point).

That's a pretty bold claim to make to someone you don't know. Explain yourself, please.

[SuuT]

You're not making sense, Lutiferre. You need to be more plodding.

[Lutiferre]

That's a pretty bold claim to make to someone you don't know. Explain yourself, please.
If you had understood my posts, you would know I am not targeting you in person, but the fact of the true Germanic heathenry being something that resides in the past, and of our knowledge of it being limited to various artificial attempts at reconstruction out of very limited knowledge, considering the original wide extense and diversity of cultic practice and belief throughout Scandinavia and Germanic lands, out of which we have perhaps one out of a hundred parts of what there is to know, and certainly not a true, whole living tradition passed on by our ancestors.

[Psychonaut]

If you had understood my posts, you would know I am not targeting you in person, but the fact of the true Germanic heathenry being something that resides in the past, and of our knowledge of it being limited to various artificial attempts at reconstruction out of very limited knowledge, considering the original wide extense and diversity of cultic practice and belief throughout Scandinavia and Germanic lands, out of which we have perhaps one out of a hundred parts of what there is to know, and certainly not a true, whole living tradition passed on by our ancestors.

As it was already alluded to (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90454&postcount=140), much of Heathenry, particularly in some of Europe's more isolated regions, did not die out. In fact, one of our old moderators (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=49) came from an Orcadian family that was basically Heathen, and had been so for generations. You're greatly miscalculating both the degree to which Heathen practices were discontinued and the amount of information about the past that is extant.

[Lutiferre]

As it was already alluded to (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90454&postcount=140), much of Heathenry, particularly in some of Europe's more isolated regions, did not die out. In fact, one of our old moderators (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=49) came from an Orcadian family that was basically Heathen, and had been so for generations. You're greatly miscalculating both the degree to which Heathen practices were discontinued and the amount of information about the past that is extant.
They were discontinued. Whatever survives is a fragment and certainly not even a percentage of the whole diversity of cultic practice and religious life that existed before Christianity. And that fragment is even only from a very late stage of heathenry, mixed with later Christian ideas. If you think this fragment represents heathenry in its pre-Christian form (in which there were many stages, and many different rites and cults), you are utterly mistaken.

[asulf]

my brother of the tribe of Danes,
in the spirit of wanting to expand your knowledge I will say this;
I belong to a family that has never accepted and practiced the Christian worship, was now free to practice the religion of your choice, this sit-n not provided the certainty that the church has créthiene destroy all traces of pre-Christian religions,
cults secret societies have kept the flame of paganism in Europe and if you believe without evidence of critical thinking he will still have work to do but given the certainty of your young age ..... there is hope

[Cato]

Secret societies like the Masons?

[Ankoù]

Secret societies like the Masons?

I can not say about Germanic neo-paganism but neo-druidism was inspired by Masons.

[Psychonaut]

I can not say about Germanic neo-paganism but neo-druidism was inspired by Masons.

There (http://runegild.org/) are (http://www.groandi.org/) and were (http://www.runewolf.org/) quite a few initiatory Germanic brotherhoods operating in the US.

[asulf]

Pallamedes,
secret societies there still exists even for movements Nordisants. they remain in the shadows to provide continuity to the upheavals suceptible to shock again, may be another religion of the desert so the history of Europe has learned us one thing, to take out insurance on our knowledge of pagan Moreover, the intrinsic nature of a secret society is to remain secret, why ruin the efforts of our predecessors discretions? I am? may be yes may be that not one day I said the other, no information and misinformation are strictly only the hidden knowledge persists, we contact the other one without actually conaitre us, we share we reconaissons silently facing the indoctrination posted some discretion is our guarantee of our security

[Cato]

Pallamedes,
secret societies there still exists even for movements Nordisants. they remain in the shadows to provide continuity to the upheavals suceptible to shock again, may be another religion of the desert so the history of Europe has learned us one thing, to take out insurance on our knowledge of pagan Moreover, the intrinsic nature of a secret society is to remain secret, why ruin the efforts of our predecessors discretions? I am? may be yes may be that not one day I said the other, no information and misinformation are strictly only the hidden knowledge persists, we contact the other one without actually conaitre us, we share we reconaissons silently facing the indoctrination posted some discretion is our guarantee of our security

This sounds like a book called The Odin Brotherhood that I've heard about.

[Andorran]

There (http://runegild.org/) are (http://www.groandi.org/) and were (http://www.runewolf.org/) quite a few initiatory Germanic brotherhoods operating in the US.

Interesting you mention this. I recently found an ancestor who was in the Order of Harugari in the 1800's in the mid-west US. I know very little about the group other than it had a really strong folkish bent, emphasis on honoring ancestors, and possessed some other heathen-esque qualities - but for all I know it could really just have been a drinking club. Ever heard of it?

[Psychonaut]

Interesting you mention this. I recently found an ancestor who was in the Order of Harugari in the 1800's in the mid-west US. I know very little about the group other than it had a really strong folkish bent, emphasis on honoring ancestors, and possessed some other heathen-esque qualities - but for all I know it could really just have been a drinking club. Ever heard of it?

I've never heard of them before, but a cursory search makes it look like they were similar to the kind of groups like the Bund der Germanen that proliferated around the same time over in Germany.

[Lutiferre]

may be another religion of the desert
Yes, that filthy desert dweller Jesus, who came from and preached in that filthy desert of Galilee
http://derek4messiah.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/galilee.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Upper_Galilee_123.JPG/800px-Upper_Galilee_123.JPG
http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/rotatingphotos/Sea_of_Galilee_northern_end_from_Tiberias.jpg
http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/theology/institute/mediterranean/israel/images/Galilee_shore.JPG

[Nationalitist]

Does anyone here practice neolithic paganism?

[Lutiferre]

Does anyone here practice neolithic paganism?

Yes, I do, I am forever resisting those filthy Indo-European desert religions who poisoned my people.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by reality check
Does anyone here practice neolithic paganism?

Nope I don’t live in the Neolithic.

[asulf]

Oui, cet immonde Désert Dweller Jésus, Qui venait de Prêcher dans le désert immonde de Galilée
* [IMG] http://derek4messiah.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/galilee.jpg [/ IMG]
* [IMG] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Upper_Galilee_123.JPG/800px-Upper_Galilee_123.JPG [/ IMG]
* [IMG] http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/rotatingphotos/Sea_of_Galilee_northern_end_from_Tiberias.jpg [/ IMG]
* [IMG] http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/theology/institute/mediterranean/israel/images/Galilee_shore.JPG [/ IMG] [/ QUOTE]

ok,
I will clarify the three monotheistic religions are the basis or rather their roots are in these peoples pastor goat farmers for the simple reason that a cow requires a lot more of grass on the ground.
is a geological reality! the soil is poorer than that in Europe except some oases it is rather arid.
in my previous post I alluded to fesait Bedouins who until proven otherwise live in the desert
and your pretty pictures incidentally make me think of the garden land of Israel which they are made fertile by the seawater desalination

we can go back in time if you want to c is also an ancient sea

[QUOTE=Vérifier la réalité; 91791] Est-ce que quelqu'un ici pratique le paganisme néolithique?


pressed this interresting in studying

[Cato]

Yes, that filthy desert dweller Jesus, who came from and preached in that filthy desert of Galilee
http://derek4messiah.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/galilee.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Upper_Galilee_123.JPG/800px-Upper_Galilee_123.JPG
http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/rotatingphotos/Sea_of_Galilee_northern_end_from_Tiberias.jpg
http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/theology/institute/mediterranean/israel/images/Galilee_shore.JPG

Nice scenery, but this thread isn't about Jesus. :)

[Lutiferre]

Nope I don’t live in the Neolithic.
And I don't live in the Germanic Iron Age. If your sole criterium for what your religion is, is what happens to be the religion of your people in the time period you live in, then you should accept Christianity much rather than Germanic neo-paganism.

[Psychonaut]

And I don't live in the Germanic Iron Age. If your sole criterium for what your religion is, is what happens to be the religion of your people in the time period you live in, then you should accept Christianity much rather than Germanic neo-paganism.

The salient difference is that Heathenry is a religion whose origin lies with the Germanic people and is at the very core of the Germanic ethnogenesis, whereas Christianity is latecoming faith that was adopted well after the tribal identities had been established.

[Sol Invictus]

whereas Christianity is latecoming faith that was adopted well after the tribal identities had been established.

Which were then eventually and continue to be systematically destroyed because of it.

[Cato]

Destroyed or adapted.

[Lutiferre]

The salient difference is that Heathenry is a religion whose origin lies with the Germanic people and is at the very core of the Germanic ethnogenesis, whereas Christianity is latecoming faith that was adopted well after the tribal identities had been established.
The problem is that your own criteria are inconsistent with reality. You will inevitably have to reject Germanic paganism, because A) what we know of it only represents a late form that doesn't correspond to the early ethnogenesis of our peoples, but is a rather late condition of a mythology ever-syncretic and ever-evolving and importing of foreign gods, and B) is almost by certainty tainted by Celtic, Roman and other influences, especially Roman; look at the Roman Iron Age shortly before the Germanic Iron Age in the late part of which our most extensive knowledge of Germanic paganism dates, and C) is not, at any rate, the religion of our oldest tribal ancestors, since it is a religion which we can specifically date to some changes and revolutions in society (for one thing, the Indo-European revolution, but also the numerous changes that have occured after that) culturally and linguistically, that took place in our very ancestors, and is not representative of what was native before it.

[Vargtand]

The problem is that your own criteria are inconsistent with reality. You will inevitably have to reject Germanic paganism, because A) what we know of it only represents a late form that doesn't correspond to the early ethnogenesis of our peoples, but is a rather late condition of a mythology ever-syncretic and ever-evolving and importing of foreign gods, and B) is almost by certainty tainted by Celtic, Roman and other influences, especially Roman; look at the Roman Iron Age shortly before the Germanic Iron Age in the late part of which our most extensive knowledge of Germanic paganism dates, and C) is not, at any rate, the religion of our oldest tribal ancestors, since it is a religion which we can specifically date to some changes and revolutions in society (for one thing, the Indo-European revolution, but also the numerous changes that have occured after that) culturally and linguistically, that took place in our very ancestors, and is not representative of what was native before it.

It is how ever a step in the right direction, as the more we learn the more we can dismiss, the close we can come to the core system, and given the laws of logic, if we replicate the exact environment and the exact conditions the same conclusion will be drawn, or rather a conclusion that could have been drawn, which is infinitely closer to our own identity than anything important, but we can not reach that without learning more and we learn more by trying and progressing further and further towards it, recreating Germanic paganism is just one step of many, at least in my mind there is a desire to progress it, to pick up where it was left dormant, and to evolve it further, only to push our own cultural and ethnic diversity further.

Remember that it took Christianity over a thousand years, or rather Christianity has tried for over a thousand years to completely replace folklore and the old faith and still it lives on in bits and pieces, in names in twisted tails, hidden from sight but ever present, and it will take just as long if not longer to eradicate Christianity well unless we do as we did when we teaches the people of skåne to speak Swedish... took a generation but then again look how well that went :P

[Psychonaut]

A) what we know of it only represents a late form that doesn't correspond to the early ethnogenesis of our peoples, but is a rather late condition of a mythology ever-syncretic and ever-evolving and importing of foreign gods

Yes, the religion of our ancestors evolved alongside them. Just as their tribal affiliations shifted, so did their religious conceptions. Also, although there are some who advocate the direct recreation of Heathenry as it was practiced in a specific time, I am not one of those. What I think should remain constant, and has, are that we hail our Gods, that we hail our ancestors and that we connect with the land. The specific deities have never been and are not constant. This is not a problem, it is simply a reality. The specific methods of religious devotion did not remain constant at any time either. This is also not a problem. Seeking to be a living anachronism stuck mid stream in time's flow is a foolish and impossible goal. What forward thinking Heathens are seeking to do is not be our ancestors, but to realign ourselves with our original trajectory prior to the Christian conversion.


is almost by certainty tainted by Celtic, Roman and other influences, especially Roman; look at the Roman Iron Age shortly before the Germanic Iron Age in the late part of which our most extensive knowledge of Germanic paganism dates

As a Frenchman I can't really see any reason why this is a bad thing. My thought focuses not on Scandinavians or even Europeans. I'm focused on my kin: North Americans, the majority of whom are Celto-Germanic, not strictly Germanic.

[Lutiferre]

Yes, the religion of our ancestors evolved alongside them. Just as their tribal affiliations shifted, so did their religious conceptions. Also, although there are some who advocate the direct recreation of Heathenry as it was practiced in a specific time, I am not one of those. What I think should remain constant, and has, are that we hail our Gods, that we hail our ancestors and that we connect with the land. The specific deities have never been and are not constant. This is not a problem, it is simply a reality. The specific methods of religious devotion did not remain constant at any time either. This is also not a problem. Seeking to be a living anachronism stuck mid stream in time's flow is a foolish and impossible goal. What forward thinking Heathens are seeking to do is not be our ancestors, but to realign ourselves with our original trajectory prior to the Christian conversion.

As a Frenchman I can't really see any reason why this is a bad thing. My thought focuses not on Scandinavians or even Europeans. I'm focused on my kin: North Americans, the majority of whom are Celto-Germanic, not strictly Germanic.
None of what you said here contradicts what I said, which was only that your criteria in the other post (sticking to the religion of the point of time of ethnogenesis of your culture and kin) is inconsistent with what modern neo-heathenry is; which doesn't fullfill it. You are free to openly say, as you do here, that your only real criterium is that it is prior to Christianity/ not Christian.

[Psychonaut]

None of what you said here contradicts what I said, which was only that your criteria in the other post (sticking to the religion of the point of time of ethnogenesis of your culture and kin) is inconsistent with what modern neo-heathenry is; which doesn't fullfill it. You are free to openly say, as you do here, that your only real criterium is that it is prior to Christianity/ not Christian.

I suppose our biggest difference is that you think your criteria are reasons to drop Heathenry altogether and adopt Christianity, whereas I see them as providing room for growth and expansion within the Heathen paradigm.

[Lutiferre]

I suppose our biggest difference is that you think your criteria are reasons to drop Heathenry altogether and adopt Christianity, whereas I see them as providing room for growth and expansion within the Heathen paradigm.
It wasn't actually my criteria but the ones implicit in your own statements (and in my posts to others, theirs). And so, it's not actually me who thought the criteria were reasons to drop heathenry, but that the criteria were put forward as a defense of neo-paganism, and yet not at all fulfilled by the limitations of what survives and our knowledge, and hence, not fulfilled by neo-pagan reconstructionism. All you have to do is change your criteria to "whatever is pre-Christian", which becomes ambigious and can involve any of the, no doubt, hundreds of cults and cultic differences that might historically have existed.

[Creeping Death]

why do non-scandinavians practice asatru?
All pre-Christian European religions were related, an example is that Odin derived from the Celtic God Lugus as both have a command of magic and poetry both have ravens and a spear as their attributes, and both are one-eyed, and the Roman God Mercury derived from Lugus. Thor and Loki both have Red Hair not a Scandinavian trait and all European religions have their version of those two. Ásatrú is just a 19th century revivalism no different from Druidism.

[asulf]

lutiferre,
* Vous êtes un provocateur doublé Prosélytisme "on vous montre un mouton et toujours Guidés par un berger divin ET MÊME SI.
Je Respecte les Chrétiens Dans leur ensemble, je reste sourd à vos discours, et je resterais un loup essayant de me frapper pour voir et je vais dévorer Le Travail Était bien fait, ils vous font Une personne bien conditionné Et si la provocation Affichez vous Comme une agressif.
est que vos maîtres Ont peur de manquer vos Cours qui mourait de son propre venin Réside
* vous dites que votre personne est en chute libre, à mon avis EN TANT qu'interlocuteuryou dire n'est pas essentielle, mais j'avoue avoir le plaisir de vous dire
vous êtes un chiot qui a mordu un ours en peluche, et qui amène à le mâle dominant de son environnement
sauf que le monde est plein de gros molosses qui sera qu'une bouchée de vous !!!!!!

Enfin, pour ceux qui me lisent, je suis un garçon sympathique de Nice, et al écoute, je regrette de vous avoir tenu mes sauts d'humeur, mais pour moi un nécessaire des cultures
J comme suppose toujours mes actes et mes déclarations
salutations

[Murphy]

lutiferre,
* Vous êtes un provocateur doublé Prosélytisme "on vous montre un mouton et toujours Guidés par un berger divin ET MÊME SI.
Je Respecte les Chrétiens Dans leur ensemble, je reste sourd à vos discours, et je resterais un loup essayant de me frapper pour voir et je vais dévorer Le Travail Était bien fait, ils vous font Une personne bien conditionné Et si la provocation Affichez vous Comme une agressif.
est que vos maîtres Ont peur de manquer vos Cours qui mourait de son propre venin Réside
* vous dites que votre personne est en chute libre, à mon avis EN TANT qu'interlocuteuryou dire n'est pas essentielle, mais j'avoue avoir le plaisir de vous dire
vous êtes un chiot qui a mordu un ours en peluche, et qui amène à le mâle dominant de son environnement
sauf que le monde est plein de gros molosses qui sera qu'une bouchée de vous !!!!!!

Enfin, pour ceux qui me lisent, je suis un garçon sympathique de Nice, et al écoute, je regrette de vous avoir tenu mes sauts d'humeur, mais pour moi un nécessaire des cultures
J comme suppose toujours mes actes et mes déclarations
salutations

It would help if Lutiffere could speak French... perhaps you could translate for us poor simpletons?

Regards,
Eóin.

[asulf]

sorry for the double automatic translation depends on your.
I said,
you're a provocateur doubled a person who practices proselytism Are you a sheep flock of the shepherd.
I respect any religion or spirituality different from mine, for I n cons accept it d be slapped in the name of your faith I am a wolf I do not hold out the other cheek I will eat the hand slap me.
The work was well done with you you are conditioning, and as such I do not allow us to predict what will change our future on our faith or our spirituality surcrois this thread, is focused on living his paganism and not a chapel Photostock your worship.
you're a young puppy bite a teddy bearand, who take de facto leader of the pack!
but outside your little bubble world is filled with hounds which one that will bite you
I feel indoctrinated about your sweaty preaching to convertire grace let us decide for ourselves our futurehere is the content of the message which was sent
thank you for your kindness and your compréhention

[Lutiferre]

you're a provocateur doubled a person who practices proselytism Are you a sheep flock of the shepherd.
You think this is proselytism? Then you haven't seen proselytism. This is merely defending the pagan heritage of all nations with a gentile past from the neo-pagan claim to represent my ancestors, something I have given my reasons as to why I deny it throughout the thread.


(...)

I feel indoctrinated about your sweaty preaching
What? Okay, I mean.. dude. seriously.. what?


(...)
thank you for your kindness and your compréhention
No problem! :thumb001:

[Lutiferre]

All pre-Christian European religions were related, an example is that Odin derived from the Celtic God Lugus as both have a command of magic and poetry both have ravens and a spear as their attributes, and both are one-eyed, and the Roman God Mercury derived from Lugus. Thor and Loki both have Red Hair not a Scandinavian trait and all European religions have their version of those two. Ásatrú is just a 19th century revivalism no different from Druidism.
Which, to the extent that it is true (and it is to an extent true), only proves the fundamental contention of Indo-European cultural and cultic studies in that those religions are fundamentally speaking myths and beliefs that have travelled, foreign importations in syncresis, but far from "native" products.

[Psychonaut]

To All Involved,

OK, for the record, this thread is about Non-Scandinavians (and non-Germanics in general) and Asatru (and Germaninc Polytheism in general). Personal disputes will be handled via PMs. Conversations relating to Christianity will take place outside of the Heathenry forum. This thread has been split five times since it was started, so let's try a little harder to stay on track. Every religious discussion on the board does not need to turn into an exercise in Christian apologetics.

Thank you,
You Friendly Neighborhood Psychonaut

[Nodens]

Much of the question is relative to just how Pan-European one's cultural outlook is. It's a given that all Indo-European religion/mythology has it's roots in Proto-IE culture, and subsequent differences are largely shaped by language, environment and, in some cases (particularly contemporary Hinduism), extra-IE contact. I personally regard all Western (i.e. European) IE systems as variant expressions of the same underlying Truth. Some are obviously more culturally relevant to some groups than others, but even at the extremes, none are entirely alien. That being said, it is odd for say, a Russian to take up Celtic paganism (unless, of course, he chooses to relocate and assimilate into a Celtic nation). In the case of the Anglo world, Celtic, Germanic, Hellenic and Italic mythology have all had a significant cultural impact, and I therefore can't find anything particularly strange in say, Americans, being drawn to any of them.

Clarification: I regard the difference between Oðin and Woðin to be purely linguistic.

[Wodans-Krijger]

Well Hilding, i have to practice Asatru, cause i'm of Germanic descent. Asatru isn't only Scandinavian. Asatru is Germanic, Germanic means Scandinavia, Low countries(but not Wallonia), Germany, England, Austria, Liechtenstein and (Germanspeaking) Switzerland. I'm not scandinavian, but i'm still of Germanic descent. Scandinavians got this crazy Idea that Odin is only their god, but we Dutch for example also belong to that branch of Germanic people, who also worship(ped) Odin or Wodan we call him in our Language. But i can understand your frustration when we are talking about for example slavs or celts abiding Odin :s

Edit: the gods are actually completely the same. They don't have different names actually, they actually have a different pronunciation. In order to know what i mean, you have to know the Germanic linguistically changes. The Scandinavian peoples started to drop the "W". The old name of Odin/Wodan was Wodanaz. It comes from Odr which means rage, furiosity. To come back to the "w". The scandinavians must have started saying Odan or something, which changed to Odin over time. You can see this in other examples too. I'll use Dutch and Swedish as example. The "w" dropped or got replaced by a "v", the same happened to Danish and Norwegian.

Ord = Woord (Word)
Vi = Wij (We)
Varför = Waarvoor (Why)
Värld = Wereld (World)
Vatten = Water (Water)
Vinna = Winnen (to win)
Var = Waar (Where)

So the differences have to do with pure linguistical changes, than differences in worship, culture, or the gods themselves.

[Wodans-Krijger]

Which, to the extent that it is true (and it is to an extent true), only proves the fundamental contention of Indo-European cultural and cultic studies in that those religions are fundamentally speaking myths and beliefs that have travelled, foreign importations in syncresis, but far from "native" products.

That only means the religions evolved. There is a main indo-european religion which is the mother of all descending European pagan religions. They are authentic cause it evolved here. Christianity, judaism and islam didn't come from here, so they are not authentically European, and will never be.

[Arrow Cross]

Christianity didn't come from here, so they are not authentically European, and will never be.
I'm afraid you're a bit late with that. Just a bit.

About a millenium and a half late.

By the same token, it doesn't take a Scandinavian to genuinely pursue a Scandinavian-originated faith and it doesn't take a witch doctor of Humbulumba to practice Humbulumban magic.

[Wodans-Krijger]

It doesn't matter which time it is. Your ancestry matters. A religion is most of the times folkbound. It says so in the first verses of the Havamal that you have to be of the Heimdall kin to be part of Asatru, which practically means the Germanic folk.
Asatru will always be the true Germanic religion. Time does not matter a bit. If Islam wins now, and you were born a thousand and half years later, would you be a proud muslim? Cause it happens that islam had an influence in those thousand years and a half? Would you consider Islam a native European religion? I think you wouldn't if you'd be consistent.
The Germanic people is the chosen people of Wodan.
The Celtic people is the chosen people of Toutatis
The Slavic people is the chosen people of Svarog
The Jews are the chosen people of Yahweh.

[Arrow Cross]

The Jews are the chosen people of Yahweh.
Your lack of updates is getting worse; it's two thousand years now since it ceased to be the case.

Religions, just like other aspects of culture, and even migrating peoples themselves, can take root. So did Christianity in Europe. So did Islam in Egypt, Iran and even Indonesia.

Would you call a Hungarian in the year 895 "European"?
Would you call him that in 1895?

[Cato]

The Jews are the chosen people of Yahweh.

According to their own sages, this chosenness is to live in a perpetual covenant with the Almighty and to act as witnesses to the Almighty's existence in a world full of atheism, cults, mysticisms, etc. Taken at face value, the idea of a chosen people is, quite obviously, about racial and ethnic superiority (which people commonly accuse the Jews of fostering given how many of them tend to be snobbish SOBs). Taken theologically, the idea of being chosen by God isn't hard to grasp, especially in some of the prophetic texts. Jeremiah, for example, says:

In the day of affliction [day of judgment], unto thee [God] shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and shall say: 'Our fathers have inherited nought but lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit.'

Shall a man make unto himself gods, and they are no gods?

Therefore, behold, I will cause them to know, this once will I cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is Yhvh.

He's a right boaster, ol Yhvh, but, given that his gimmick is that he's the God of Gods, something he's never done away with, it makes theological sense that he'd have to have his representatives in the world, hence the existence of a group (i.e. the Jews) to constantly remind the world of Yhvh's supremacy lest it backslide into depravity, idolatry, etc. Being chosen doesn't exempt the Jews from being spanked, witness the troubles they've had with just about everyone from the Assyrians and the Romans, in ancient times, to the Muslims, in modern times. This group of people carries the honor of Yhvh with them, and when they behave like a bunch of rascals (which they usually do), then they're usually going to spanked- and far more harshly than, say, a bunch of spearchuckers who worship bundles of sticks who've never even heard of Yhvh.

Other deities don't make the same claims to universal supremacy that Yhvh, nor do they deny that they, alone, are the only deity in existence. Various deities, Odin, Amateratsu, and whatnot, may have favored groups (Norse, Japanese, and so on), but not a one of them claims to be the sole divine being in existence like Yhvh.
There's a bit in the Iliad where Zeus browbeats the immortals by telling them that they all combined couldn't take him on, but he'd be able to whip them all single-handedly, but this is still witin a polytheistic context.

Yhvh is the president of a supposedly exclusive club (so we're told, by the members of the club itself rather than the club's president), the Jews, but the big beard in the sky makes it plainly obvious [in the Bible] that he wants everyone in the world to acknowledge him and do away with their pesky idols.

[Wodans-Krijger]

I wonder if the germans or dutch used the words "Odin" or "asatro", where are the german versions of the sagas or the edda? As I mentioned earlier, things evolve and adapt to best fit in.

We also have Germanic heathen literature, like Beowulf, Hildebrandslied, Der Ring des Nibelungen...

We probably also had the values of the Edda, we just didn't happen to have monk to write them down. You have to know that Iceland has always been very tolerant to the old teachings of paganism. We had less luck with our leaders, Charles the Great, Clovis,... Those were all pious christians who really wanted to kill heathenry.

About the mixture; Scandinavia isn't free from mixture either. Since you border Finland, and the Saamer, you also have Finnish-saamer influences in your heathenry. Here in the Lowlands we also have little influences from the Celts. But in the end, if our identity is 99% Germanic, and 1% celtic influenced, then we're just Germanic right? Just like you have 1% influences, you scandinavians are still 99% Germanic, and thus practically just are Germanic.

[Wodans-Krijger]

Your lack of updates is getting worse; it's two thousand years now since it ceased to be the case.

Religions, just like other aspects of culture, and even migrating peoples themselves, can take root. So did Christianity in Europe. So did Islam in Egypt, Iran and even Indonesia.

Would you call a Hungarian in the year 895 "European"?
Would you call him that in 1895?

I consider Hungarians a host in Europe whom we have tolerated and glad we did. Hungarians are good people. I'm okay with your presence, but you are not European like we are.

I know what you mean with "your lack in updates", but that is just what's wrong with it. The reason we are having this forum, is to prevent from other religions that damage our identity from prevailing in our lands. It would be a nightmare when islam would become integrated like christianity did, and become normal and hell even considered the European tradition and way. It says in the bible (old testament), that the jews are the chosen people, and he would lead them to the promised land. So it makes christianity just a form of judaism, since jesus himself was a jew. He just had some critics on judaism. Today, we would consider Jesus left wing ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm okay with your presence, but you are not European like we are.
They have become a permanent occupant of the house, eat, worship and live as we do and hence a member of the family.
For as far as I am concerned the Finnic peoples and the Hungarians have become full-Europeans over time.

[Lutiferre]

I consider Hungarians a host in Europe whom we have tolerated and glad we did.

As if it was a matter of merely "tolerance". There was never any structure to have any choice of toleration; only a land, with different peoples, coincidentally situated in a geographical area denoted as "Europe", going through its own respective changes. It's not like there was ever any "European static entity" which had a council which mercifully permitted the Hungarians to have their "piece of Europe". The closest you come to that is the religiocultural power structure of Christianities, mainly Catholicism, which is not a problem considering Hungarians were Christened as were the rest of us.

[Wodans-Krijger]

According to their own sages, this chosenness is to live in a perpetual covenant with the Almighty and to act as witnesses to the Almighty's existence in a world full of atheism, cults, mysticisms, etc. Taken at face value, the idea of a chosen people is, quite obviously, about racial and ethnic superiority (which people commonly accuse the Jews of fostering given how many of them tend to be snobbish SOBs). Taken theologically, the idea of being chosen by God isn't hard to grasp, especially in some of the prophetic texts. Jeremiah, for example, says:

In the day of affliction [day of judgment], unto thee [God] shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and shall say: 'Our fathers have inherited nought but lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit.'

Shall a man make unto himself gods, and they are no gods?

Therefore, behold, I will cause them to know, this once will I cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is Yhvh.

He's a right boaster, ol Yhvh, but, given that his gimmick is that he's the God of Gods, something he's never done away with, it makes theological sense that he'd have to have his representatives in the world, hence the existence of a group (i.e. the Jews) to constantly remind the world of Yhvh's supremacy lest it backslide into depravity, idolatry, etc. Being chosen doesn't exempt the Jews from being spanked, witness the troubles they've had with just about everyone from the Assyrians and the Romans, in ancient times, to the Muslims, in modern times. This group of people carries the honor of Yhvh with them, and when they behave like a bunch of rascals (which they usually do), then they're usually going to spanked- and far more harshly than, say, a bunch of spearchuckers who worship bundles of sticks who've never even heard of Yhvh.

Other deities don't make the same claims to universal supremacy that Yhvh, nor do they deny that they, alone, are the only deity in existence. Various deities, Odin, Amateratsu, and whatnot, may have favored groups (Norse, Japanese, and so on), but not a one of them claims to be the sole divine being in existence like Yhvh.
There's a bit in the Iliad where Zeus browbeats the immortals by telling them that they all combined couldn't take him on, but he'd be able to whip them all single-handedly, but this is still witin a polytheistic context.

Yhvh is the president of a supposedly exclusive club (so we're told, by the members of the club itself rather than the club's president), the Jews, but the big beard in the sky makes it plainly obvious [in the Bible] that he wants everyone in the world to acknowledge him and do away with their pesky idols.

Why would i accept the god of the jews? They were a people that were oppressed very much and had to deal with a lot of occupation. So their only medium to feel a bit powerful, was to have a God that would always protect them, and that would be more powerful than other gods and people. It's a normal reaction. You see it too when we got christianized, the germanic gods became more violent. Most of them became gods of war. Wodan was the god of Poetry and wisdom, and during the christinization he suddenly became a god of war. The reason the jews thus made their god so powerful, is because they needed such a figure in their lives to feel protected and looked after. But the truth is very different. Jews have been persecuted, slaughtered, killed, humiliated,... etc in the whole of history. Gods are eventually how you describe them. No one knows the real truth, the true gods. Religion are in the first place identity and cultural. That's why i will never accept the christian teachings as they don't represent the true Germanic culture. Our gods represent our thoughts, our lands, our way of thinking,... As does the christian god represent the thinking of the new jews vs the conservative jews.

You talk about "abiding sticks" is wrong, well, what is wrong with that? If some folk does it on an island with a vulcano on it, what's wrong with that? It's their culture, it's their habit, who are we to tell them it's bad? Why do christians and muslims always feel the need to convert and tell other people they are "wrong"?

[Wodans-Krijger]

They have become a permanent occupant of the house, eat, worship and live as we do and hence a member of the family.
For as far as I am concerned the Finnic peoples and the Hungarians have become full-Europeans over time.

But the ethnicity of the hungarians actually wasn't really the problem. I just didn't really agree with his analogy that hungarians came in the 9th century, and that would make them somewhat less European. Yes i agree, they are fully European. But one must recognize that Christianity is merely an accepted and integrated religion than it is a true European folkbound religion. That was actually the issue. I wasn't really able to explain myself at first, but now i've found what i intended to say.

[Knut]

Southern swarthies cannot be Asatruar. It is religion for noble northern warriors.

[Wodans-Krijger]

Southern swarthies cannot be Asatruar. It is religion for noble northern warriors.

I'm of Germanic descent, i think it's very normal i follow germanic heathenry: Ásatrú... Why do you even call me a swarthy? I'm 6ft tall, light toned skin, blue eyes, very light brown/blondish hair. I'm your average Germanic person.

[Guapo]

Hm, everyone south of Denmark is swarthy.

[Knut]

I'm of Germanic descent, i think it's very normal i follow germanic heathenry: Ásatrú... Why do you even call me a swarthy? I'm 6ft tall, light toned skin, blue eyes, very light brown/blondish hair. I'm your average Germanic person.

I wasn't addressing myself to you. I was speaking about some Mediterranean swarthies trying to practice Ásatrú, which is ridiculous.

[Guapo]

I wasn't addressing myself to you. I was speaking about some Mediterranean swarthies trying to practice Ásatrú, which is ridiculous.

I concur.

[Ibericus]

I wasn't addressing myself to you. I was speaking about some Mediterranean swarthies trying to practice
Ásatrú, which is ridiculous.Actually the Astaru was practiced in the Iberian peninsula in the Suebic Kingdom :

"Otros pueblos que estuvieron en la Península Ibérica, como los suevos, practicaron esta religión en Galicia y Asturias"
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asatru

[Knut]

Actually the Astaru was practiced in the Iberian peninsula in the Suebic Kingdom

Yes, maybe, before the Suebi assimilated into the disgusting Iberian race.

[Wodans-Krijger]

Yes, maybe, before the Suebi assimilated into the disgusting Iberian race.

The visigoths also merged into the Iberian volk. That's why you have these romancified germanic names like Fernando, Alberto, Bruno,... etc

[Wodans-Krijger]

I wasn't addressing myself to you. I was speaking about some Mediterranean swarthies trying to practice Ásatrú, which is ridiculous.

I'm glad you didn't refer to me. Takk ;)

[Knut]

The visigoths also merged into the Iberian volk. That's why you have these romancified germanic names like Fernando, Alberto, Bruno,... etc

Only names. An African can take a Germanic name, but it doesn't mean he is Germanic.

[Guapo]

The visigoths also merged into the Iberian volk. That's why you have these romancified germanic names like Fernando, Alberto, Bruno,... etc

And Rodrigo. I'd rather live in Spain than cold Norway tho.

[Wodans-Krijger]

Only names. An African can take a Germanic name, but it doesn't mean he is Germanic.

I think you get me wrong, i don't approve of Celts or balts or other people to turn themselves to Ásatrú. They have fascinating own religions to which they should turn. Like Rodnovery(Slavs), Druidism (Celts), Roman paganism (Italics),...etc. That should be the whole principle of the old religions. Each and one should turn to their native religion.

[Pallantides]

And Rodrigo. I'd rather live in Spain than cold Norway tho.
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00759/stordalen111_759647i.jpg


It's only cold in the winter, the Norwegian coastline have nice and warm climate due to the Gulf Stream.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Temp_normal_norway.jpg

[Guapo]

Okay, but do you have the palm trees

[Pallantides]

Okay, but do you have the palm trees

Sure in the Nature-historical museum and botanic garden in Oslo:p

[Osweo]

You have to know that Iceland has always been very tolerant to the old teachings of paganism. We had less luck with our leaders, Charles the Great, Clovis,... Those were all pious christians who really wanted to kill heathenry.
I just wanted to speak up for old Karl... For fairness's sake. Though a Christian, he had something of a fondness for his folk's traditions, and had various sagas and songs collected and written down. Perhaps this collection would have been immensely valuable - as much or even more so than the Eddas... But his son, Louis the 'Pious' <spit!> had them burnt. :....

Okay, but do you have the palm trees
Heh, there are several places in the Western Highlands of Scotland where you can see this oddity of climate. Thanks to the Gulf Stream, naturally. :thumbs up

[Wodans-Krijger]

My country is all rain, rain, rain and rain :P But that's how i know and love my country!

[Wodans-Krijger]

I just wanted to speak up for old Karl... For fairness's sake. Though a Christian, he had something of a fondness for his folk's traditions, and had various sagas and songs collected and written down. Perhaps this collection would have been immensely valuable - as much or even more so than the Eddas... But his son, Louis the 'Pious' <spit!> had them burnt. :....

That is true, his 'ridderromans" as we call them, novels about knights, are actually based on the stereotyp Germanic hero such as Beowulf and siegmund, but with a christian connotation to it.

[Liffrea]

I use Scandinavian terms in so far as its habit, of course most of what remains of our lore is Icelandic but I don’t feel restricted by that. I study the Anglo-Saxon indigenous beliefs out of academic interest but I don’t feel compelled to re-create it, I’m not a 6th century Anglo-Saxon, nor a Viking, I’m a 21st century English man, I’m sure the Vikings didn’t feel the need to re-create their ancestors ways, they adapted and were innovators, time moves on, fashions change, if Odinism is to have any future beyond that of a tiny number of people then it needs to introduce a spirituality/philosophy that is something Folk can re-late to today. That isn’t saying ignore our ancestry, ancestry is our one constant, but we need to be working towards the future not living in the past. That’s how I see it.

My stance has changed slightly from this in the sense that I am interested in creating something that resonates more with Englishness in character and landscape, though I hasten to add not as some form of reconstruction but more extracting some of the spirit. Beowulf and much of Old English literature, to me, seems a plausible model of ancient English spirituality/philosophical outlook and, I believe, a study of the Anglo-Saxon Church can aid this as well. Yet the problem remains in that English spirituality is predominantly within a Classical-Christian mindset, neither of which is possible to extract as a whole (I’m not of the school of thought that one can simply turn the clock back before Augustine arrived in 597). Of course the Eddas themselves are heavily loaded with Christian and Classical influence so the problem is common to modern Heathenism in general.

I feel often that we become bogged down in surface issues and cosmetics and lose sight of the fact that whatever shape Heathen faith(s) take they must be within a north European mindset, that has persisted even in Christianity, but with that faith no longer commanding the mythic landscape of European man it becomes one of creating a new sense of the sacred, revitalised concepts, ancient patterns but, perhaps, in a new style. This seems to be more my inclination as I ponder how 21st century man who has seen the atom split, whose distant ancestors crawled from the oceans, whose anthropomorphic world view has largely been torn down reinvents the sacred in himself and the world, what face will Woden wear? I’m chewing through pencils rapidly….

[Wodans-Krijger]

My stance has changed slightly from this in the sense that I am interested in creating something that resonates more with Englishness in character and landscape, though I hasten to add not as some form of reconstruction but more extracting some of the spirit. Beowulf and much of Old English literature, to me, seems a plausible model of ancient English spirituality/philosophical outlook and, I believe, a study of the Anglo-Saxon Church can aid this as well. Yet the problem remains in that English spirituality is predominantly within a Classical-Christian mindset, neither of which is possible to extract as a whole (I’m not of the school of thought that one can simply turn the clock back before Augustine arrived in 597). Of course the Eddas themselves are heavily loaded with Christian and Classical influence so the problem is common to modern Heathenism in general.

I feel often that we become bogged down in surface issues and cosmetics and lose sight of the fact that whatever shape Heathen faith(s) take they must be within a north European mindset, that has persisted even in Christianity, but with that faith no longer commanding the mythic landscape of European man it becomes one of creating a new sense of the sacred, revitalised concepts, ancient patterns but, perhaps, in a new style. This seems to be more my inclination as I ponder how 21st century man who has seen the atom split, whose distant ancestors crawled from the oceans, whose anthropomorphic world view has largely been torn down reinvents the sacred in himself and the world, what face will Woden wear? I’m chewing through pencils rapidly….

Basically it comes to this, we need Pagan Philosophers. Actually they already exist. You should read Alain de Benoist's works. He has some views on heathenry and the modern world. He wrote books specifically about heathenry. But we need more of this kind of philosophers. We really need to connect our identity to the gods.

My idea/belief is that there is one motherforce that created all gods. The motherforce has always been. This motherforce makes the blueprint of the world and the basics. The other gods Odin, Donar,... are the gods of our Germanic landscape (our lands), they created how we look as persons and individuals. Then you also have the other gods Vishnu, Brahma of the indians for example that created how India and the indian people look today. That explains 1) human variation (DNA, how we look) 2) landscapevariation, our gods created us according to the soil we live on 3) they steer evolution 4) they gave us our languages (pronunciation, runes, grammar) ,... etc. Who we are, what we look like today is because of the Motherforce and our Germanic gods.

[Baron Samedi]

I think you get me wrong, i don't approve of Celts or balts or other people to turn themselves to Ásatrú. They have fascinating own religions to which they should turn. Like Rodnovery(Slavs), Druidism (Celts), Roman paganism (Italics),...etc. That should be the whole principle of the old religions. Each and one should turn to their native religion.

That is quite hard for some of us (mostly Americans) who are of of mixed-IndoEuropean heritage, though.

[Aemma]

Basically it comes to this, we need Pagan Philosophers. Actually they already exist. You should read Alain de Benoist's works. He has some views on heathenry and the modern world. He wrote books specifically about heathenry. But we need more of this kind of philosophers. We really need to connect our identity to the gods.

Quite a few of us here who are heathen have read him. ;) Please feel free to start any threads you would like regarding his works or thoughts. He's a fascinating thinker.

You should also look into this new publication (http://www.heathenjournal.com/).

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Wodans-Krijger
Basically it comes to this, we need Pagan Philosophers. Actually they already exist.

They always have existed it’s a case of seeing indigenous European thought in all mediums (even Christianity, especially Catholicism, which is a variant of polytheism when we get right down to it).

My personal prejudices lean more to Nietzsche, there are others (I fully intend to study Heraclitus and Hiedegger as and when), but this a relatively new field for me.


You should read Alain de Benoist's works. He has some views on heathenry and the modern world. He wrote books specifically about heathenry. But we need more of this kind of philosophers. We really need to connect our identity to the gods.

I’m acquainted with De Benoist, I haven’t studied him in depth, at the present most of my time revolves around studying Nietzsche, Spengler, Tolkien’s work in mythology and Anglo-Saxon and the academic study of Old English Heathenism. I should add several of Joseph Campbell’s books and articles and Jung (but I’m being harsh otherwise I will never get anything done, they will have to wait).

Add to that physics (in principle chaos theory at the moment), evolution (the spontaneous order proposed by Stuart Kaufmann I find particularly fascinating) and a developing interest in the impact of Celtic on the English language.


My idea/belief is that there is one motherforce that created all gods. The motherforce has always been. This motherforce makes the blueprint of the world and the basics. The other gods Odin, Donar,... are the gods of our Germanic landscape (our lands), they created how we look as persons and individuals. Then you also have the other gods Vishnu, Brahma of the indians for example that created how India and the indian people look today. That explains 1) human variation (DNA, how we look) 2) landscapevariation, our gods created us according to the soil we live on 3) they steer evolution 4) they gave us our languages (pronunciation, runes, grammar) ,... etc. Who we are, what we look like today is because of the Motherforce and our Germanic gods.

I’m not sure whether my thought will come down upon a transcendental-metaphysic or a naturalistic-metaphysic side, I’m characteristically more inclined to naturalism so I have sympathy for the theory of memes and an idea I read in Howard’s Bloom’s Lucifer Principle of memetic/genetic deity formed within the minds of specific tribes, what I perceive to be a certainty is that humans need a sense of sacredness in themselves and their landscape, I believe that autochthonous growths are the best medium for that, it is creating, what Campbell would have called, the sense of play i.e. myth-time as a nobler form of human experience. I guess I will be more certain once I have decided how I see the question of mind.

[Psychonaut]

Basically it comes to this, we need Pagan Philosophers.


You should also look into this new publication (http://www.heathenjournal.com/).

Indeed. Some of us are working extremely hard towards actualizing Heathen Philosophy.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wkOaKnorL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Journal-Contemporary-Heathen-Thought/dp/1452883718/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279755345&sr=8-1)

[Cato]

Why would i accept the god of the jews? They were a people that were oppressed very much and had to deal with a lot of occupation. So their only medium to feel a bit powerful, was to have a God that would always protect them, and that would be more powerful than other gods and people. It's a normal reaction. You see it too when we got christianized, the germanic gods became more violent. Most of them became gods of war. Wodan was the god of Poetry and wisdom, and during the christinization he suddenly became a god of war. The reason the jews thus made their god so powerful, is because they needed such a figure in their lives to feel protected and looked after. But the truth is very different. Jews have been persecuted, slaughtered, killed, humiliated,... etc in the whole of history. Gods are eventually how you describe them. No one knows the real truth, the true gods. Religion are in the first place identity and cultural. That's why i will never accept the christian teachings as they don't represent the true Germanic culture. Our gods represent our thoughts, our lands, our way of thinking,... As does the christian god represent the thinking of the new jews vs the conservative jews.

You talk about "abiding sticks" is wrong, well, what is wrong with that? If some folk does it on an island with a vulcano on it, what's wrong with that? It's their culture, it's their habit, who are we to tell them it's bad? Why do christians and muslims always feel the need to convert and tell other people they are "wrong"?

Your viewing Yhvh as merely "the God of the Jews" has no basis in [theological] fact. If the Greeks could equate Yhvh with Zdeus and the Romans equate him with Jove (Emperor Julian equates him to Jupiter Iao, the supreme sky/sun deity of the pagan cosmology in his Contra Galileos, the God that every other deity is but a portion of) the God of Gods, he's no localized deity, but a deity of cosmic proportions. Remember, also, that the Greeks and Romans saw the Jews as backwards fanatics yet admired their religion for its antiquity and the sagacity of the lawgiver, Moses, who was compared to such ancient religious reformers as Orpheus and Zoroaster. The founder of my own philosophical school (Stoicism) was a Semite (according to the modern definition): Zeno of Kition, a Hellenized Phoenician, so I'm not so quick to dismiss the opinions of the Semites, especially the pre-Islamic Semites, if they were even Semites to begin with- witness the influence of ancient Indo-Aryan races like the Mitanni, Kassites, and Hittites, possibly the folk of Aram (the tribe whence came Abram/Abraham, the father of the Hebrews), in the ancient Middle East, and you might be more favorably inclined to the "Jewish fables." :)

Yhvh is commonly called "God of the Jews" but, if you read deeply into the Bible, Yhvh was God of all people before there were any Jews in existence- people merely forgot about him, perhaps remembering him as a distant, stern father-figure in a national mythology (El in Canaan, Assur in Assyria, etc.). Idolatry entered the world when mankind began to worship the sun, moon, constellations, planets, etc. because they thought that, by honoring these grand examples of the creator, they'd be honoring the creator himself.

Again, read into the Bible, and you'll find that Yhvh tells to mankind himself is worthier of worship than these so-called Gods themselves. Man, being made in the image of the creator, is little less than the divine beings (angels/elohim) in terms of stature, yet is superior to them by possessing the imago dei, divine likeness. Man can chose whereas the divine beings, being mere extensions of the Almighty's will, cannot.

[Psychonaut]

Your viewing Yhvh as merely "the God of the Jews" has no basis in [theological] fact.

Err...you mean it has no basis in post-captivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity) theology. It is not really up for debate amongst historians of Judaism that their religion, like all others, began as polytheistic (which is only vaguely referenced in the referenced by the etymologies of divine names), transitioned into henotheism (which is directly referenced in the OT several times when Yahweh talks shit about the Gods of other peoples) and finally into monotheism.

[Cato]

Err...you mean it has no basis in post-captivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity) theology. It is not really up for debate amongst historians of Judaism that their religion, like all others, began as polytheistic (which is only vaguely referenced in the referenced by the etymologies of divine names), transitioned into henotheism (which is directly referenced in the OT several times when Yahweh talks shit about the Gods of other peoples) and finally into monotheism.

I've seen several good arguments against source and textual criticism of the Bible. Who then is correct, those who support initial monotheistic tendencies or those against it? :confused:

[Psychonaut]

I've seen several good arguments against source and textual criticism of the Bible.

I have no idea what you mean. "Good" arguments against examining the Bible's text in light of archeology and linguistics? "Good" arguments against examining is in the greater context of global religiosity and not as a priori absolute truth?

[Óttar]

The Jews worshipped other gods and the gods of neighboring peoples until 630BCE with the coming of King Josiah. This whole 'mankind was originally monotheistic' is merely victors' propaganda.