How Celtic is central Europe ?

[Jana]

Proto-celts most likely originated and spread from Central Europe to British Isles, France, Iberia and northern Italy. But none of Celtic languages survived, being replaced by Germanic, Slavic and Hungarian.

How much celtic ancestry have people from southern Germany, Austria, west slavic countries, Hungary, Slovenia, northern Croatia ?
Both autosomal and in paternal lineages.

I think there is more Celtic ancestry (rather than Germanic) in central europe than people think.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Officially, that is unknown, as there is no official study referring a possible celtic ancestry, though there are several hobists' estimations, which of course can't be considered reliable

Not to mention that racially celts were not homogenous, and they are mostly considered a linguocultural group, not racial

Anyway, I think 5-40% of the ancestry in these countries may be related to each celtic speaking tribe that used to live before other invasions

[Jana]

I estimate 5-15% of autosomal DNA in northern Croatia to be of celtic origin. In southern basically zero.
For southern Germany it is probably around 50%, right ?

I also wonder about amount of Celtic ancestry in Poland. There is lot of R1b there, and they have more northwest euro admixture than people expect. Even Poland isn't purely Slavic.

[Lavrentis]

My question is: is Central Europe more Celtic or Slavic? Probably Slavic, except Bavaria and south Germany I guess

[Jana]

My question is: is Central Europe more Celtic or Slavic? Probably Slavic, except Bavaria and south Germany I guess
I think Slavic>Celtic>Germanic in this order :)

Basically central Europe is lot less Germanic than advertised. Celtic is very important admxture in the region people tend to forget about.

[Aenar]

My question is: is Central Europe more Celtic or Slavic? Probably Slavic, except Bavaria and south Germany I guess

Slavic without doubt.

[Veslan]

Not very Celtic at all. R1b haplogroup is minor and it's mostly of Medieval German origin.

[Jana]

Not very Celtic at all. R1b haplogroup is minor and it's mostly of Medieval German origin.
These Germans were mostly Germanized Celts.
And 20% isn't that minor. Not to mention actual Germany or Austria where it is most dominant haplogroup.

[Ülev]

My question is: is Central Europe more Celtic or Slavic? Probably Slavic, except Bavaria and south Germany I guess

let allow Poland dream about Celtic ancestry, please:
celtic-polish music:

https://youtu.be/5gCgi9iRZ7c
Ireland and Poland on Euro2012

https://youtu.be/ftVVeyaVl0s

[Jana]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Celts_in_III_century_BC.jpg
Expansion of the Celtic culture in the third century BC according to Francisco Villar

Celtic expansion in Europe
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Celtic_expansion_in_Europe.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

[brennus dux gallorum]

let allow Poland dream about Celtic ancestry, please:
celtic-polish music:

https://youtu.be/5gCgi9iRZ7c
Ireland and Poland on Euro2012

https://youtu.be/ftVVeyaVl0s
Lol this foggy dew sounds celtic as much as I am Danish

[Jana]

What are approximate percentages of Celtic, Germanic and Slavic ancestry among Austrians for example ?
I feel it could be almost 1/3 of each in certain regions.

[Veslan]

These Germans were mostly Germanized Celts.
And 20% isn't that minor. Not to mention actual Germany or Austria where it is most dominant haplogroup.

The most of them have Germanic R1b, and this is the most popular R1b mutation in Poland. And the peoples like Lugii or Venedi have left either little or no genetic legacy at all.

[Jana]

The most of them have Germanic R1b, and this is the most popular R1b mutation in Poland. And the peoples like Lugii or Venedi have left either little or no genetic legacy at all.
Poland might be exception and most Germans there real Germanic. But Germans in Czech Republic, SLovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, were mostly southern German origin.

If Bavarians and Austrians were really much Germanic, they would cluster with Dutch or Danes but they obviously don't.

[Ülev]

The most of them have Germanic R1b, and this is the most popular R1b mutation in Poland. And the peoples like Lugii or Venedi have left either little or no genetic legacy at all.

Peterski is Lugii's "father", he is r1b df-27 if I remember

[Jana]

Actually lot of Germans is Poland were Germanized Slavs or Balts (Prussians). Peterski had a thread about it. East Baltic region Germans had mostly local N1c, R1a. But this region isn't really central Europe to begin with.

[Ülev]

............

[Veslan]

Peterski is Lugii's "father", he is r1b df-27 if I remember

Wasn't his R1b mutation "Danish" or something like this?

Edit: You are right.

[Aenar]

What are approximate percentages of Celtic, Germanic and Slavic ancestry among Austrians for example ?
I feel it could be almost 1/3 of each in certain regions.

Region with predominantly Slavic ancestry in Austria is Carinthia.

Styria, Burgenland and Lower Austria are Germanic-Slavic mix.

Salzburg and Upper Austria are predominanrly of Germanic ancestry probably with some Celtic influence, Slavic influence does not exist in Salzburg and Upper Austria.

Tyrol has the strongesr Celtic influence probably stronger than Germanic, in Tyrol Slavic influence does not exist.

[Jana]

Useful maps :

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_British_Irish.png
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_French_German.png
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Scandinavian.png
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/23andMe_Northwest_European.png

[Ülev]

Wasn't his R1b mutation "Danish" or something like this?

Danish admixture (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225101-Happy-I-m-not-German-but-Danish), but y-dna was/is df-27 older than Iberian if I remember

[Jana]

Most common phenotype in central europe is alpine. This phenotype is rather insignificant in core Germanic areas.
So it must be Celtic legacy :)

[Ülev]

Most common phenotype in central europe is alpine. This phenotype is rather insignificant in core Germanic areas.
So it must be Celtic legacy :)

but what with Atlantids +Med +North + Paleo?

nothing Aplinid, big, long heads

[Mikula]

Bavaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria)in Germany and Bohemia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia)at Czechia received their names from Celtic tribe, Boii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii), what lived there.
Because in both areas exists toponyms of Celtic origin, it seems that not all Celtic population was annihilated or expelled by the Germanic and later Slavic newcomers.
At least part of population was assimilated the Germanic and Slavic settlers learned the ancient names of mountains and rivers from the locals, and therefore ones are used until today. Czechs are Slavs with strong Germanic admixture and it seems that some drops of Celtic blood runs in our veins too.
One of my friends died for cystic fibrosis, a disease what is tied with Celtic people.

Wikipedia says about Czech DNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechs#Genetics):
The population of the Czech lands has been influenced by different human migrations that wide-crossed Europe over time. In their Y-DNA haplogroups, which are inherited along the male line, Czechs have shown a mix of Eastern and Western European traits. 34.2% of Czech males belong to R1a, which is particularly common in a large region extending from South Asia and Southern Siberia to Central Europe and Scandinavia. Within the Czech Republic, the proportion of R1a seems to gradually increase from west to east [23] According to a 2000 study, 35.6% of Czech males have haplogroup R1b, which is very common in Western Europe among Germanic and Celtic nations, but rare among Slavic nations.[24] A mtDNA study of 179 individuals from Western Bohemia showed that 3% had East Eurasian lineages that perhaps entered the gene pool through admixture with Central Asian nomadic tribes in the early Middle Ages.[25] A group of scientists suggested that the high frequency of a gene mutation causing cystic fibrosis in Central European (including Czech R.) and Celtic populations proves a proto-Celtic population origin, besides the Slavic, in the Czech population.[26]

[Peterski]

Not very Celtic at all. R1b haplogroup is minor and it's mostly of Medieval German origin.

What makes you think so considering that we have Pre-German R1b from Gniezno?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225194-Y-DNA-in-Early-Medieval-Poland

Summary of Y-DNA from Early Medieval Polish samples (tested so far):

ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384
GO_1, Gniezno (1000-1200 AD), R1b1a2-L150.1
NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621
NA_18, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), J2a1a-L26

[Peterski]

In Poland we had the Lugii, who were Celtic or at least had Celtic elements (this is a Celtic ethnonym, unlike the Vandals):

Lugus-related Celtic ethnonyms and toponyms:

Lugidunon / Lugidunum (= Legnica or Głogów, in Poland)
Luguvalium (= Carlisle in Cumbria, in northern England)
Lugudunum / Lugdunum (= Lyon, in Rhône-Alpes, France)
Lugdunum Batavorum (= Leiden, in Zuid-Holland, the Netherlands)
Lugdunum Convenarum (= Saint-Bertrand-de-Comminges)

Celtic ethnoses called Lugii (later Lugiorum nomen - the Lugian federation), Lugi, Luggones and Lougei:

1) Poland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?413770-Preview-The-Lugiones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Silesia#Celts_in_Silesia_.284th-1st_centuries_BC.29


The Lugii (or Legii, Lugi, Lygii, Ligii, Lugiones, Lygians, Ligians, Lugians, or Lougoi) were a large tribal confederation mentioned by Roman authors living in ca. 100 BC–300 AD in Central Europe, north of the Sudetes mountains in the basin of upper Oder and Vistula rivers, covering most of modern south and middle Poland (regions of Silesia, Greater Poland, Mazovia and Little Poland).

2) Britain:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/2*.html


from the Lemannonis bay as far as the Varar estuary are the Caledoni, and above these is the Caledonian forest, from which toward the east are the Decantae, and next to these the Lugi extending to the Cornavi boundary, and above the Lugi are the Smertae; below Caledonia are the Vacomagi, among whom are the following towns

3) Iberia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astures#Origins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Roman_peoples_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#Celtic


The Transmontani, placed between the Navia River and the central massif of the Picos de Europa, comprised the Cabarci, Iburri, Luggones, Paesici, Paenii, Saelini, Vinciani, Viromenici, Brigaentini and Baedunienses; the Cismontani comprised the Amaci, Cabruagenigi, Lancienses, Lougei, Tiburi, Orniaci, Superatii, Gigurri, Zoelae and Susarri (which dwelled around Asturica Augusta, in the Astura river valley, and was the main Astur town in Roman times). Prior to the Roman conquest in the late 1st century BC, they were united into a tribal federation with the mountain-top citadel of Asturica (Astorga).

[MercifulServant]

They have Celtic Alpinid phenotypes

[Mikula]

Jizera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizera_(river))river - Czechia
Isar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isar)river - Germany
Isère (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%C3%A8re_(river))river - France

Names of the rivers comes from Celtic words - ys "fast, torrential" and ura "water, river

[Jana]

Celts in Croatia:

''Other tribes such as the Liburni and Iapodes, whose ethnicity is less clear, inhabited various parts of the Adriatic coastline and interior between modern Istria and Herzegovina. In the 4th century BC the northern parts of modern-day Croatia were also colonized by the Celts, the Scordisci tribe.''

Japodes were Illyrians I'm pretty sure, but Liburni were probably Kelts (my guess is Illrianized celts). In my city first settlement was named Trsatica by Romans, related to Celtic word ''Tarsa'' menaing hill by the river.There is also relatively more rufosity and R1b of Italo-celtic type in western Croatia, so it is legacy of some celtic admixture in the locals from ancient times.

[Rethel]

Bump

[Rethel]

Quite.
Poland has even celtic national legendary hero and heroine...

[Jana]

Quite.
Poland has even celtic national legendary hero and heroine...

Tell us about it please :)

[Rethel]

Tell us about it please :)

These two. Do you recognize them?

https://cdn.eventfinda.co.nz/uploads/events/transformed/846806-390798-34.jpg?v=2

[Token]

Genetically, a lot, specially in the Switzerland-Austria area that was most likely the place where Proto-Celtic, as a independent Indo-European branch, evoluted. Unfortunately, Celtic culture and, in some specific places, language, just survived in the Atlantic fringes of Europe.

[Enr1989]

I guess also a country like Germany today is ethnically more celtic than gemanic

[Jana]

These two. Do you recognize them?

https://cdn.eventfinda.co.nz/uploads/events/transformed/846806-390798-34.jpg?v=2

Nope, how could I ?

I'm really curious now!

[Tschaikisten]

E1b-V13>Z19851 and G2a>L497>L42 should be called Celtic.

[Ülev]

very ancient photo, lol

[Jana]

I guess also a country like Germany today is ethnically more celtic than gemanic
Only the south I'm sure.


E1b-V13>Z19851 and G2a>L497>L42 should be called Celtic.
I know for G2a being Celtic, but where is this specific branch of E common and how does it related to Celts ?
Thanks.

[Tschaikisten]

I know for G2a being Celtic, but where is this specific branch of E common and how does it related to Celts ?
Thanks.
Look to it's genography, tmrca, snp variety.

I think there was lot of different and rare Y-DNA SNP's among all ancient populations in Europe.

[Tschaikisten]

Origins, spread and distribution of Haplogroup E-V13
(https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view)

3.11.2 CTS5856 > Z5017 > Z19851
This group so far has been found in a Swede, a Serbian, a Greek (from Thessaly but likely with Bulgarian roots) an Austrian, a Bulgarian, a Scot, an Englishman and an Italian (from near the border of Emilia Romagna and Lombardy). Based on STR clusters this SNP is thought be widespread in the western Balkans, it has been found in several members of the Serbian Orlovici tribe.22

[Rethel]

Nope, how could I ?

I'm really curious now!

Ursus and Kalina Ligia from Quo Vadis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quo_Vadis_(novel)).
Her roman name is a rifference to the tribe of
Lugii aka Ligii who lived in Poland at the time.

[Rethel]

E1b-V13>Z19851 and G2a>L497>L42 should be called Celtic.

:bored:

[Jana]

Ursus and Kalina Ligia from Quo Vadis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quo_Vadis_(novel)).
Her roman name is a rifference to the tribe of
Lugii aka Ligii who lived in Poland at the time.

oh what a coincidence :D

I watch the film actually, it is Stears favorite film !

[Rethel]

oh what a coincidence :D

I watch the film actually, it is Stears favorite film !

Watch series if is available - a film is too short.

[Ülev]

it.s a waste of time, movies indoctrinate us :rolleyes:

[Norb]

bump

[blogen]

My question is: is Central Europe more Celtic or Slavic? Probably Slavic, except Bavaria and south Germany I guess

Bohemia is equally Celtic, Germanic and Slavic, Central and South Germany is dominantly Celtic and Austria is more Celtic than anything, but not dominantly Celtic.

[Mikula]

Biatec coins at Slovakia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biatec)

https://www.aurea.cz/Katalog53/53a2533.jpg

[cyberlorian]

Proto-celts most likely originated and spread from Central Europe to British Isles, France, Iberia and northern Italy. But none of Celtic languages survived, being replaced by Germanic, Slavic and Hungarian.

How much celtic ancestry have people from southern Germany, Austria, west slavic countries, Hungary, Slovenia, northern Croatia ?
Both autosomal and in paternal lineages.

I think there is more Celtic ancestry (rather than Germanic) in central europe than people think.

Culturally: Not Celtic at all.

Genetically: More Celtic than Scandinavia, Eastern Europe and Southern Europe. However, less Celtic than Western Europe.

[J. Ketch]

How much German Bell Beaker do they score compared to Insular Celts?

[J. Ketch]

2500 years ago: a lot.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMii4ZFFx7k/W55QUJB-L7I/AAAAAAAAHN4/ZANhxNSOhssU6hiWO39rSJziehTKu2uXACLcBGAs/s1600/Celto-Germanic_PCA.png
The Hallstatt reference here coming from Bylany in the Czech Republic.

They were always different from Insular Celts though.