Mycenaean and Minoan Eurogenes K36 similarity maps.

[Sikeliot]

I won't even post MENA areas... they are less MENA shifted than modern mainland Greeks even, let alone South Italians or Cretans.

Mycenaean:

https://i.imgur.com/RKMGzYG.png


Mycenaean:

https://i.imgur.com/vrGcPXz.png


Minoan:

https://i.imgur.com/WU9DYC6.png


Minoan:

https://i.imgur.com/DzSddez.png


Minoan:

https://i.imgur.com/GrmQSwF.png

[Percivalle]

Minoan:

https://i.imgur.com/DzSddez.png


This is not a Minoan, it's I9033 a Mycenaean.


I9033, Mycenaean female sample from Peristeria4, Peloponnese, Greece (1416–1280 BC).


Peristeria has been described as “the Mycenae of the Western Peloponnese”

https://i.imgur.com/h5PAmwA.png

[JMack]

So we can say modern Southern Italians have the highest affinity to Mycenaeans and also a lot to Minoans. The affinity seems to have a peak in Abruzzo, Calabria and Puglia.

[Kouros]

71% for the Corsican on the 2nd Mycenaean sample + skips over Sicily completely it seems. Also didn't expect the impact to reach all the way up to Tuscany. Surprising but impressive.

Una faccia una razza!

https://i.imgur.com/RenOJvz.jpg

[Sikeliot]

71% for the Corsican on the 2nd Mycenaean sample + skips over Sicily completely it seems. Also didn't expect the impact to reach all the way up to Tuscany. Surprising but impressive.

Una faccia una razza!

Mycenaeans were very Southern European, but they lacked the MENA input of modern Sicilians and other Aegean islanders.

[Coolguy1]

K36 is a test designed for genetic drift of modern populations, based on modern frequencies.

[Kouros]

Mycenaeans were very Southern European, but they lacked the MENA input of modern Sicilians and other Aegean islanders.

How about Minoans?

[Sikeliot]

How about Minoans?

They were even more Sardinian-like than Mycenaeans.

[Kouros]

They were even more Sardinian-like than Mycenaeans.

But Sardinia has the least Minoan-like ancestry in all of Italy it says, so how does that work? Also did Minoans have MENA input? I'm too noob still to decipher these studies properly.

[Sikeliot]

But Sardinia has the least Minoan-like ancestry in all of Italy it says, so how does that work? Also did Minoans have MENA input? I'm too noob still to decipher these studies properly.

Minoans were a mixture of Caucasian like ancestry and West Med. Mycenaeans seem closest to central-south Italians but without the additional Middle Eastern and North African. They do shift toward Sardinia compared to modern Greeks.

[Percivalle]

Mycenaean:

https://i.imgur.com/RKMGzYG.png


What Mycenaean sample is this?




Minoan:

https://i.imgur.com/DzSddez.png


I've checked, this is Mycenaean I9033. Moreover, there are only two Minoan samples on gedmatch.

[Kouros]

Minoans were a mixture of Caucasian like ancestry and West Med. Mycenaeans seem closest to central-south Italians but without the additional Middle Eastern and North African. They do shift toward Sardinia compared to modern Greeks.

Sorry I don't understand. According to the maps the Minoans were not Sardinian-like at all and closer to France in most cases. Sardinians had the same similarity with Mycenaeans as they did with Minoans according to the map. Or is there some other information in the study that tells us that 'Minoans were Sardinian-like'?

Or do you just say 'Sardinian-like' to signify that Minoans had no steppe ancestry (just neolithic)?

Sorry if what I'm saying doesn't make sense I just want to understand.

[Percivalle]

K36 is a test designed for genetic drift of modern populations, based on modern frequencies.

Agreed. Furthermore both Mycenaean and Minoan samples have very few SNPs compared to modern samples.



71% for the Corsican on the 2nd Mycenaean sample + skips over Sicily completely it seems. Also didn't expect the impact to reach all the way up to Tuscany. Surprising but impressive.

It's due to west med in Mycenaeans, higher in Mycenaeans than in modern Greeks.


Average based on all four Mycenaeans


https://i.imgur.com/4DIKqU7.jpg


1- I9006 Mycenaean


https://i.imgur.com/jgRdBgM.jpg


2 -I9010 Mycenaean

https://i.imgur.com/ifWOp6d.jpg



3 -I9033 Mycenaean

https://i.imgur.com/DzSddez.png


4- I9041 Mycenaean

https://i.imgur.com/vrGcPXz.png



How about Minoans?


These two are the Minoans (there are only two Minoans on gedmatch, not three). But K36 isn't a very good calculator for ancient samples.


https://i.imgur.com/WU9DYC6.png

https://i.imgur.com/GrmQSwF.png

[Sikeliot]

It's due to west med in Mycenaeans, higher in Mycenaeans than in modern Greeks.

Yes. Peloponnesians have higher West Med than other Greeks today though. Also, it is worth noting that the Mycenaeans end up somewhere between today's southern Italians and today's Sardinians due to their mixture, but they do not have the higher and recent MENA affinities.

[Teucer]

I'm shocked Italians are more Mycenaean than Greeks are. It doesn't make any sense to me

[Teucer]

Mycenaeans were very Southern European, but they lacked the MENA input of modern Sicilians and other Aegean islanders.

When did the MENA input enter the islands?

[Sikeliot]

When did the MENA input enter the islands?

I don't know. But what we can see is, Sicilians and Calabrese are basically like Aegean islanders with a North African input. All of these received MENA input that Mycenaeans did not have.

[JMack]

I don't know. But what we can see is, Sicilians and Calabrese are basically like Aegean islanders with a North African input. All of these received MENA input that Mycenaeans did not have.

Calabrese generally don't score any North African. The only Europeans scoring significant North African are Sicilians, Iberians and some Cretans. In the case of Iberians it's certainly neolithic since the ones who score most are some of the lightest in the peninsula (Galicians and Northern Portuguese). I'm not sure about Sicily though.

[Lavrentis]

K36 is a test designed for genetic drift of modern populations, based on modern frequencies.

Does that mean anything specific regarding the results? What I mostly get is that South and Central Italians are more West Med than Greeks, which is expected

Edit: Oh yeah, now I got it. You mean that it is not accurate to measure ancient genetic similarity in a test which is based on modern similarities. I'm new to all this you know

[Sikeliot]

Does that mean anything specific regarding the results? What I mostly get is that South and Central Italians are more West Med than Greeks, which is expected

And less NE European. Modern Greeks have much higher NE European ("Balto Slavic") type DNA than do modern Italians of any kind, or Mycenaeans.

[Lavrentis]

And less NE European. Modern Greeks have much higher NE European ("Balto Slavic") type DNA than do modern Italians of any kind, or Mycenaeans.

There was an IE invasion in Greece which is probably the biggest reason of the Northern shift. Sardinians and South Italians didn't have any invasion similar to this

[Sikeliot]

There was an IE invasion in Greece which is probably the biggest reason of the Northern shift. Sardinians and South Italians didn't have any invasion similar to this

This is why Mycenaeans are closer to Italians, I believe.

[Percivalle]

I'm shocked Italians are more Mycenaean than Greeks are. It doesn't make any sense to me

In fact these results are not implying that there is more Mycenaean genetic inheritance in Italians than in Greeks.



This is why Mycenaeans are closer to Italians, I believe.

No, more because K36 doesn't have any Greek component.

[Lavrentis]

No, more because K36 doesn't have any Greek component.

So, like Sorcelow, you think that it's innacurate to measure ancient genetic similarities with K36? Not having a Greek component is still a problem though but whatever. I think that both South Italians and Greeks will score very similar genetic similarity to Myceaneans on other tests too

[Sikeliot]

So, like Sorcelow, you think that it's innacurate to measure ancient genetic similarities with K36? Not having a Greek component is still a problem though but whatever. I think that both South Italians and Greeks will score very similar genetic similarity to Myceaneans on other tests too

On other calculators you end up with Mycenaeans coming up as 75% Sicilian and 25% Sardinian, where modern Greeks come up 75% Sicilian, 25% Polish/Russian. So you can figure Greece got more Sicilian-like between Mycenaean times and the Slavic invasion otherwise you could not have a near replacement of 25% West Med with 25% NE European, which took place.

[Percivalle]

So, like Sorcelow, you think that it's innacurate to measure ancient genetic similarities with K36? Not having a Greek component is still a problem though but whatever. I think that both South Italians and Greeks will score very similar genetic similarity to Myceaneans on other tests too

Yes, of course I agree with Sorcelow. Furthermore these Mycenaean samples have very few SNPs compared to modern people, and this K36 similarity tool is really an amateur tool.

[Bosniensis]

Why are Sardinians so distant?

[kleenex]

Mycenaeans were very Southern European, but they lacked the MENA input of modern Sicilians and other Aegean islanders.

Which may mean that they are closest to Peloponnesian Greeks. Kind of makes sense, yes?

[Lavrentis]

Bump

[Lavrentis]

So we can say modern Southern Italians have the highest affinity to Mycenaeans and also a lot to Minoans. The affinity seems to have a peak in Abruzzo, Calabria and Puglia.


I'm shocked Italians are more Mycenaean than Greeks are. It doesn't make any sense to me

Well, according to people here, this particular calculator is for modern frequencies, not ancient. And there is no Greek component in this calculator that was used either.

[Bosniensis]

Who would have thought that Italy has practically remained the same after so many conquests and wars....

I don't like modern Italian language though, it's just a feminine version of Latin xD

[Kouros]

Why are Sardinians so distant?

Because they never settled there. They're amazingly isolated and homogeneous, probably the purest European ethnic group.