The Genetic study of Peloponnese is a pseudoscientific study.

[Laberia]

Yeah :lol:
Go ahead and announce in public to the scientific world that the paper published by Stamogianopoulos is wrong.
Prove that you are right and Stamogianopoulos a professional geneticist who was Director of the human genome project is wrong :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here you can read this study:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/full/ejhg201718a.html

Abstract

Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs.

Introduction

Here is the theory to be debunked, because this is the intention of the authors of this study.

In 1830 CE, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer presented his theory of disappearance of the Greek nation and its substitution by Slavs.9 Fallmerayer proposed that during the 6th century CE, large armies of Avars and Slavs overran the Balkans and eliminated the populations of the Hellas, who up to that period had successfully survived the attacks of barbarians and the religious suppression by the Byzantines. The Peloponnesean Greeks, except for few remnants enclosed in coastal castles, were slaughtered or forced to leave and Peloponnese was inhabited by Slavic tribes. The Slavs kept their identity for few centuries but eventually they were Hellenized under the influence of the Orthodox Church and interactions with Hellenized Asia Minor populations who were settled in Peloponnese by the Byzantines.

And here is the conclusion of the study.

Our results reject the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers.
To prove that the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers, the authors of the study tested 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula.
The conclusion of the study reject this theory.
The first question is: Who are the individuals tested by the authors?

Subjects and methods

Design of the study and populations studied
We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. In the 1861 census the population of Peloponnese was 578 598 individuals.

Here we have the first contradiction. The task of the authors is to prove the veracity or not of events happened in the first millenia AD, not in the second millenia AD.
Are these 241 individuals tested by the authors, descendants of the people who lived in the Peninsula during the events described by medieval chronicles, Fallmerayer and other authors?
I think no.
From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times. The last time, in my knowledge was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians.
Here we have an interesting page from Wikipedia:
Kingdom of the Morea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Morea)
In this page we read:


Administration
Already in 1688, with their control of the country practically complete, the Venetians appointed Giacomo Corner as the governor-general (provveditore generale) of the Morea to administer their new territory. The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7]
So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out. I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV century and latter. The region during the migration of the Albanians is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Venetians.

Who settled later in the region:

Economic and social development
To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities.[9][12][13]


As a conclusion, these 241 individuals tested by the authors of the study, are not the descendants of the people who lived in the region during the slavic migration. The today population of the Peninsula of Peloponnese has nothing to do with the people who lived in this region roughly 1400 years ago and for this reason can not be tested in order to prove the veracity or not of the events happened 1.400 years ago.
So this study is a pseudo-scientific paper.

[Laberia]

EDIT
Here are the sources of the Wiki:
6) Vakalopoulos (1973), pp. 48–49
7) Vakalopoulos (1975), pp. 206–207

Vakalopoulos, Apostolos E. (1973). Ιστορία του νέου ελληνισμού, Τόμος Δ′: Τουρκοκρατία 1669–1812 – Η οικονομική άνοδος και ο φωτισμός του γένους (Έκδοση Β′) [History of modern Hellenism, Volume IV: Turkish rule 1669–1812 – Economic upturn and enlightenment of the nation (2nd Edition)] (in Greek). Thessaloniki: Emm. Sfakianakis & Sons.
Vakalopoulos, Apostolos E. (1975). "Πελοπόννησος: Η τελευταία περίοδος βενετικής κυριαρχίας (1685–1715)" [Peloponnese: The last period of Venetian rule (1685–1715)]. Ιστορία του Ελληνικού Έθνους, Τόμος ΙΑ′: Ο ελληνισμός υπό ξένη κυριαρχία, 1669–1821 [History of the Greek Nation, Volume XI: Hellenism under foreign rule, 1669–1821] (in Greek). Athens: Ekdotiki Athinon. pp. 206–209.
As you can see, the source is an Greek scholar.

[Journeyman26]

I am not here to question or support the results of this study. I am however here to see your justification for calling it pseudoscience. In the course of writing my graduate thesis I was familiarized, a little, with how studies are designed and what constitutes evidence. This is a peer reviewed study. Your conclusions wouldn't stand up even in the basest round of review. For example:

"From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century - WAY too vague -, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times - even more vague -. The last time, in my knowledge - inappropriate in scientific writing to state facts which could be construed as "your opinion" - was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians." - Here say, you would need concrete evidence to support a MASS repopulation either in a) genetic evidence, b) records of taxation, baptism etc.

So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out (once again here say). I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV cantury and latter. The region is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Ventians.

- You have one set of records. That is all. To take this as gospel and discount genetic evidence and any other accounts accounts clearly displays a pre-existing bias which would result in a papers dismissal in the first round of peer review. You could change this by adding"according to Vakopolous 1973, 1975...". Calling a genetic study using identical by descent variation to construct genetic maps pseudoscience by citing a single author piece of work from 40 years ago would have you laughed out of the building.

Also, the evidence you cite doesn't support your conclusions. Athough the Peloponnese was bolstered by Greeks from other regions, as well as some other Balkans, the study concludes there is enough identical by descent variation, which are DNA sequences similar in two groups which would be EXTREMELY unlikely to exist due to random mutation. As such, even if the population has changed autosomally, there is still enough IBD similarity to show a connection.

lol pseudoscience..

[Laberia]

I am not here to question or support the results of this study. I am however here to see your justification for calling it pseudoscience. In the course of writing my graduate thesis I was familiarized, a little, with how studies are designed and what constitutes evidence. This is a peer reviewed study. Your conclusions wouldn't stand up even in the basest round of review. For example:

"From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century - WAY too vague -, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times - even more vague -. The last time, in my knowledge - inappropriate in scientific writing to state facts which could be construed as "your opinion" - was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians." - Here say, you would need concrete evidence to support a MASS repopulation either in a) genetic evidence, b) records of taxation, baptism etc.

So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out (once again here say). I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV cantury and latter. The region is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Ventians.

- You have one set of records. That is all. To take this as gospel and discount genetic evidence and any other accounts accounts clearly displays a pre-existing bias which would result in a papers dismissal in the first round of peer review. You could change this by adding"according to Vakopolous 1973, 1975...". Calling a genetic study using identical by descent variation to construct genetic maps pseudoscience by citing a single author piece of work from 40 years ago would have you laughed out of the building.

Also, the evidence you cite doesn't support your conclusions. Athough the Peloponnese was bolstered by Greeks from other regions, as well as some other Balkans, the study concludes there is enough identical by descent variation, which are DNA sequences similar in two groups which would be EXTREMELY unlikely to exist due to random mutation. As such, even if the population has changed autosomally, there is still enough IBD similarity to show a connection.

lol pseudoscience..
Can you prove that individuals tested are descendants of the people who lived in Peloponnese in sixth century AD? This is the question.
Otherwise, is like testing the descendants of the Irish emigrants in USA for example in order to prove historical events that happened in American Continent before the discover of this continent by Christopher Colombus.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Here you can read this study:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/full/ejhg201718a.html

And as long as we can read the study in a scientific Journal, without criticism from any other study, it is considered undeniable

Subjects and methods

Here we have the first contradiction. The task of the authors is to prove the veracity or not of events happened in the first millenia AD, not in the second millenia AD.
Are these 241 individuals tested by the authors, descendants of the people who lived in the Peninsula during the events described by medieval chronicles, Fallmerayer and other authors?
I think no.
And you are right, they are not descendants of the people that according to this only one medieval chronicle they were, (that was later used as the only source by "Fallmereyer and others"). If they were, the study would show them being genetically related either to Balkan slavs, (or even more to central European slavs, as that is where slavs in greece came from), or to Anatolian population. But as all studies, it shows relations to Greek descendant populations in south Italy first first, and limited relations to these populations.

How can someone be genetically closer to South italy, and have historical ancestry from Slovakia? Doesn't even make sense, you don't need to have even basic genetic knowledge


From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times. The last time, in my knowledge was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians.
it has never been emptyfied, only one chronicle claims such a thing which is from 9th century and talks about 6th century, with all sources and archaeological data of 6th century debunking it


So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out. I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV century and latter. The region during the migration of the Albanians is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Venetians.
As we already said, the population of the region has never been wiped out. There is only one source claiming such a thing, which as we already said it's from 9th century, and talks about 6th century, with everything from 6th century debunking it
The albanians you are talking about were settled in a tiny part of the region near central Greece, making up only the 10-20% of the population, and no source of this era makes clear that peloponnese was an empty land.



As a conclusion, these 241 individuals tested by the authors of the study, are not the descendants of the people who lived in the region during the slavic migration. The today population of the Peninsula of Peloponnese has nothing to do with the people who lived in this region roughly 1400 years ago and for this reason can not be tested in order to prove the veracity or not of the events happened 1.400 years ago.
So this study is a pseudo-scientific paper.
first of all you posted zero genetic evidence, but historiography, which can't be used to debunk genetic data, the opposite, genetic data will be used to either debunk or to confirm historiography, as it's the only objective source, so you already fail against the study.
Second, your own source does not support your claims, if you read it more carefully, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native, with the rest being partially descendants of catholic chians, ionian islanders (many of whom already had peloponnesian ancestry themselves etc.)

This study would be considered "pseudo-scientific" if it would not be approved by the journal for publication, or if another later study debunked its results. Till then, it's an undeniable fact


Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs.

that's what the particular study examines, if modern peloponnesians are genetically slavs, which would support your theory. And it proves that they are not. But for any sane person, no genetic study is required to conclude that Peloponnesians and any Greek population is not slavic, you only need a good pair of eyes, and a trip to peloponnese to see how the people look like, and see if they are anything like Slavs

Can you prove that individuals tested are descendants of the people who lived in Peloponnese in sixth century AD? This is the question.
Otherwise, is like testing the descendants of the Irish emigrants in USA for example in order to prove historical events that happened in American Continent before the discover of this continent by Christopher Colombus.
where do you see any similarity, to begin with

[Laberia]

And as long as we can read the study in a scientific Journal, without criticism from any other study, it is considered undeniable

And you are right, they are not descendants of the people that according to this only one medieval chronicle they were, (that was later used as the only source by "Fallmereyer and others"). If they were, the study would show them being genetically related either to Balkan slavs, (or even more to central European slavs, as that is where slavs in greece came from), or to Anatolian population. But as all studies, it shows relations to Greek descendant populations in south Italy first first, and limited relations to these populations.

How can someone be genetically closer to South italy, and have historical ancestry from Slovakia? Doesn't even make sense, you don't need to have even basic genetic knowledge


it has never been emptyfied, only one chronicle claims such a thing which is from 9th century and talks about 6th century, with all sources and archaeological data of 6th century debunking it


As we already said, the population of the region has never been wiped out. There is only one source claiming such a thing, which as we already said it's from 9th century, and talks about 6th century, with everything from 6th century debunking it
The albanians you are talking about were settled in a tiny part of the region near central Greece, making up only the 10-20% of the population, and no source of this era makes clear that peloponnese was an empty land.


first of all you posted zero genetic evidence, but historiography, which can't be used to debunk genetic data, the opposite, genetic data will be used to either debunk or to confirm historiography, as it's the only objective source, so you already fail against the study.
Second, your own source does not support your claims, if you read it more carefully, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native, with the rest being partially descendants of catholic chians, ionian islanders (many of whom already had peloponnesian ancestry themselves etc.)

This study would be considered "pseudo-scientific" if it would not be approved by the journal for publication, or if another later study debunked its results. Till then, it's an undeniable fact



that's what the particular study examines, if modern peloponnesians are genetically slavs, which would support your theory. And it proves that they are not. But for any sane person, no genetic study is required to conclude that Peloponnesians and any Greek population is not slavic, you only need a good pair of eyes, and a trip to peloponnese to see how the people look like, and see if they are anything like Slavs
Your post can be considered as an failed attempt to make people laugh here.
I want to ask you about this:

Second, your own source does not support your claims, if you read it more carefully, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native, with the rest being partially descendants of catholic chians, ionian islanders (many of whom already had peloponnesian ancestry themselves etc.)
I can find this in the page of Wiki. Can you show us where is written that in the year 1700, more than half of population was native?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Your post can be considered as an failed attempt to make people laugh here.
I want to ask you about this:
yet all TA users would laugh at your post, not mine. You use distorted and subjective material and try to debunk a published genetic study. What else to say

I can find this in the page of Wiki. Can you show us where is written that in the year 1700, more than half of population was native?


To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities

basic maths

[Laberia]

yet all TA users would laugh at your post, not mine. You use distorted and subjective material and try to debunk a published genetic study. What else to say




basic maths

Yeah, basic maths show that Venetians settled people from other regions, islanders, Bulgars. This is what the quote of Wiki tell us. I don't see mentioned in the page, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native.
Try to be serious.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Yeah, basic maths show that Venetians settled people from other regions, islanders, Bulgars. This is what the quote of Wiki tell us.

to begin with, it says venetian citizens from ionian islands (most of venetian citizens in the ionian islands were Greek), and "some Bulgars", along with catholic chians. So I guess the "some Bulgars" along with medieval slavs are responsible for this 1-15% slavic admixture that the study found among peloponnesians (lower than slavic admxiture in the area you live), and probably a part of ionian islanders and chian immigrants with non-Greek ancestry brought some north italian admixture, probably equal to slavic.

the fact that 70%-95% of Peloponnesian ancestry remains Greek, as the study proves, is the only that makes sense


I don't see mentioned in the page, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native.
Try to be serious.

Since the page is talking about immigrations after the venetian dominance, there was a native population before 1691 (97,000) later partially increased by immigrations to 176,000. Try to be more intelligent.

[catgeorge]

Peloponnesians are genetically clustered with Sicilians -- lol at Slavs being like South Italians. Or perhaps unable to decipher genetic papers appropriately.

[wvwvw]

Peloponnesians are genetically clustered with Sicilians -- lol at Slavs being like South Italians. Or perhaps unable to decipher genetic papers appropriately.

I don't cluster close to Sicilians

[Laberia]

to begin with, it says venetian citizens from ionian islands (most of venetian citizens in the ionian islands were Greek), and "some Bulgars", along with catholic chians. So I guess the "some Bulgars" along with medieval slavs are responsible for this 1-15% slavic admixture that the study found among peloponnesians (lower than slavic admxiture in the area you live), and probably a part of ionian islanders and chian immigrants with non-Greek ancestry brought some north italian admixture, probably equal to slavic.

the fact that 70%-95% of Peloponnesian ancestry remains Greek, as the study proves, is the only that makes sense



Since the page is talking about immigrations after the venetian dominance, there was a native population before 1691 (97,000) later partially increased by immigrations to 176,000. Try to be more intelligent.
It's very simple. Can you prove that the native population returned? No. Because there was not a return of the natives. Who were the other people settled by the Venetians, is a separate discussion.

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's very simple. Can you prove that the native population returned? No. Because there was not a return of the natives. Who were the other people settled by the Venetians, is a separate discussion.
no population returned, the natives we are talking about is the popuation that remained, whose descendants were these 97,000 before venetian dominance

it's obviously very simple, and that's what sources support, and what studies confirm

And remember, the study rejects the "slavic and anatolian ancestry" of peloponnesians, ancestry of non-peloponnesian Greek populations is not disputed, even though it's smaller than native

[Laberia]

no population returned, the natives we are talking about is the popuation that remained, whose descendants were these 97,000 before venetian dominance

it's obviously very simple, and that's what sources support, and what studies confirm

I didn't said that the entire population migrated. I said that in one occasion, 60% of the population was replaced by other people arrived from other regions. But this is not the only replacement of the population of Peninsula in 1.400 years of history. There are other migration. For this reason people who live today in the region has nothing to do with the people who lived 1.400 years ago.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I didn't said that the entire population migrated. I said that in one occasion, 60% of the population was replaced by other people arrived from other regions. But this is not the only replacement of the population of Peninsula in 1.400 years of history. There are other migration. For this reason people who live today in the region has nothing to do with the people who lived 1.400 years ago.
no source is talking about 60% population replacement, that's what you understood.

Prewar population was 200.000, post-war population was 97,000 in 1691, when venetians finally dominated the region, and 1700's population was 176,000. that means 40% of the population were descendants of replaced people. The majority were still descendants of prewar

And yes, this is the only important population replacemenet recorded for the particular region, often with peloponnesian originated people themselves living in other regions

And common logic says that population increase is can be caused by high birth rates too, not only by immigrations

[Laberia]

no source is talking about 60% population replacement, that's what you understood.

Prewar population was 200.000, post-war population was 97,000 in 1691, when venetians finally dominated the region, and 1700's population was 176,000. that means 40% of the population were descendants of replaced people. The majority were still descendants of prewar

And yes, this is the only important population replacemenet recorded for the particular region, often with peloponnesian originated people themselves living in other regions

Of course there are others, but it was necessary more than one hour for you to understand this evident replacement of more than 60% of the population of of Peninsula.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Of course there are others, but it was necessary more than one hour for you to understand this evident replacement of more than 60% of the population of of Peninsula.

more than an hour and you still can't understand that according to simple maths, there was no 60% population replacement
1700's population=176000- native post-war population that remained(97000)=79000, 79000 people colonized the region, making up 40% of prewar population, not 60%

Do you suffer from dyscalculia? :D

[Laberia]

more than an hour and you still can't understand that according to simple maths, there was no 60% population replacement
1700's population=176000- native post-war population that remained(97000)=79000, 79000 people colonized the region, making up 40% of prewar population, not 60%

Do you suffer from dyscalculia? :D

I think is you who suffer from dyscalculia:

Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7]

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think is you who suffer from dyscalculia:

Even if we estimate the 86000 of 1688, which according to sources 3 years later increase to 97000 obviously due to corinthian inclusion (who were not included in 1688) and natural population increase by births, it's still like 50%, far from 60% or more that you claim (and as I said, considering these 87000 is pointless, as a whole region is not included, in fact they were many more than 97000 as mani is never included)

dude we are talking about deep dyscalculian disorder of you :D

[brennus dux gallorum]

Talking about peloponnese and central Greece, the last "massive" foreign immigration was this of Ionian islanders and cretans after 1833

[Queen B]

Talking about peloponnese and central Greece, the last "massive" foreign immigration was this of Ionian islanders and cretans after 1833
You can still find tons of native Ionian surnames in Peloponnese.

[brennus dux gallorum]

You can still find tons of native Ionian surnames in Peloponnese.

I know, especially kakolyris is very common in ilia and achaea, I think in nafpaktos too

[Queen B]

I know, especially kakolyris is very common in ilia and achaea, I think in nafpaktos too
Literally, if you go to ''apo pou krataei i skoufia sou'' by Vrisko, and enter a common Zakynthian surname, you will find it in Peloponesse as well.

[Laberia]

Even if we estimate the 86000 of 1688, which according to sources 3 years later increase to 97000 obviously due to corinthian inclusion (who were not included in 1688) and natural population increase by births, it's still like 50%, far from 60% or more that you claim (and as I said, considering these 87000 is pointless, as a whole region is not included, in fact they were many more than 97000 as mani is never included)

dude we are talking about deep dyscalculian disorder of you :D

No, i am just enjoying how you want to play the smart guy. I have left all the field to you. And you are forging the data.
The population arrived from 86, 468 of the year 1688 when the Venetians controlled practically the whole country, to 97,118 of the year 1691, after three years of Venetian rule, not because of Corinthian inclusion and other BS like this, but because:

As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. D
So as a result of the immigration of people from other regions, encouraged by Venetians.
Start to learn some maths and try to be correct with what you claim here.

[wvwvw]

I didn't said that the entire population migrated. I said that in one occasion, 60% of the population was replaced by other people arrived from other regions. But this is not the only replacement of the population of Peninsula in 1.400 years of history. There are other migration. For this reason people who live today in the region has nothing to do with the people who lived 1.400 years ago.

Peloponnesians are natives and did not arrive from elsewhere you dumbass. Stop pulling figures out of your ass.

Yes a lot of Peloponnesians emigrated, many returned back, others didn't. Those who never returned left behind relatives.

If they all had returned back the population of Peloponnese today would have been 10 million. Same goes for Sicilians who emigrated en masse to United States in the beginning of last century. Many Napolitans, and Northern Italians came to live in Sicily but the population of Sicilians remained overwelmingly Sicilian.

Also internal immigration is absolutely natural. Let's not forget that Macedonia even in Roman times had a significant Achaean population. Many Macedonians migrated to Greek islands and Southern Greece. There were Peloponessians who had emigrated to Smyrna. Asia Minor Greeks trace their ancestors to Ionians who used to live Peloponnesos before they were expelled by the Dorians. There has been internal Greek immigration for millenia of years.

[wvwvw]

The genetic study you try to pass as pseudoscience is a peer to peer study.

It is Fallenmeyer who has been discredited time and again. Fallmerayer has no credibility today, even among the biggest enemies of Greece. He is completely discredited and an unreliable source of historic information. Don't you know that? Don't you wonder why your "savants" are not using his theories anymore?

[Laberia]

Peloponnesians are natives and did not arrive from elsewhere you dumbass. Stop pulling figures out of your ass.

Yes a lot of Peloponnesians emigrated, many returned back, others didn't. Those who never returned left behind relatives.

If they all had returned back the population of Peloponnese today would have been 10 million. Same goes for Sicilians who emigrated en masse to United States in the beginning of last century. Many Napolitans, and Northern Italians came to live in Sicily but the population of Sicilians remained overwelmingly Sicilian.

Also internal immigration is absolutely natural. Let's not forget that Macedonia even in Roman times had a significant Achaean population. Many Macedonians migrated to Greek islands and Southern Greece. There were Peloponessians who had emigrated to Smyrna. Asia Minor Greeks trace their ancestors to Ionians who used to live Peloponnesos before they were expelled by the Dorians. There has been internal Greek immigration for millenia of years.
Yeah, exactly this what i am talking. There were many movement of populations and migrations. And for this reason, the sample selected by the authors of the study, has nothing to do with people who lived in the region during the slavic invasion. Maybe, i repeat maybe, they can be useful to understand what happened in Bulgaria or in Crete, 1.400 years ago, but not in Peloponesse.

[brennus dux gallorum]

No, i am just enjoying how you want to play the smart guy. I have left all the field to you. And you are forging the data.
The population arrived from 86, 468 of the year 1688 when the Venetians controlled practically the whole country, to 97,118 of the year 1691, after three years of Venetian rule, not because of Corinthian inclusion and other BS like this, but because:

So as a result of the immigration of people from other regions, encouraged by Venetians.
Start to learn some maths and try to be correct with what you claim here.

So, the fact that according to the particular source corinthian region is not included in these 87000 people do not count, neither the fact that population unavoidably increased by births (and even if both do not count and only 87000 count, the colonists were still less than 50%) or the fact that Venetian immigration policies didn't start the very next day of the occupation

Dude, apart from lacking basic math knowledge, you are pretty insane too

Either you accept it or not, the majority of foreigners here laugh at you, not me, because of number 42, which seems to be your iq score, along with your shoe size

Most of Sources prove that most of peloponnesian population is descended from its ancient inhabitants, and this is what genetic studies also prove

You, apart from disputing sources that don't support your claims, and all genetic studies that confirm them, dispute basic maths now :D

[wvwvw]

Yeah, exactly this what i am talking. There were many movement of populations and migrations. And for this reason, the sample selected by the authors of the study, has nothing to do with people who lived in the region during the slavic invasion. Maybe, i repeat maybe, they can be useful to understand what happened in Bulgaria or in Crete, 1.400 years ago, but not in Peloponesse.

And yet despite all those migrations Peloponnesians continue to be genetically close to populations that lived in Peloponnesus 3,500 years ago. Because in the end, modern Greeks, from Cretans to Epirots and Macedonians, are largely descended from their Myceanean and Minoan ancestors.

[Laberia]

So, the fact that according to the particular source corinthian region is not included in these 87000 people do not count, neither the fact that population unavoidably increased by births (and even if both do not count and only 87000 count, the colonists were still less than 50%) or the fact that Venetian immigration policies didn't start the very next day of the occupation
Now, this discussion can not continue based on your imagination. You can imagine many things, you are free to do, but your imagination is not something that can help us in this discussion. Honestly, i hoped in your ability in maths.

Dude, apart from lacking basic math knowledge, you are pretty insane too

Either you accept it or not, the majority of foreigners here laugh at you, not me, because of number 42, which seems to be your iq score, along with your shoe size

Calm your tits little girl. Start again with the maths and tell us the final result. I will give you an other possibility.

[wvwvw]

Even Ancient Greece is full of internal immigration of Greek speaking tribes. The population of Ancient Peloponnesus was largely descended from immigrants, the Pelopids who came from Asia Minor (who had previously come to Asia Minor from Greece), the Dorians/Heraklids, the Danaans etc.

[Tauromachos]

And yet despite all those migrations Peloponnesians continue to be genetically close to populations that lived in Peloponnesus 3,500 years ago. Because in the end, modern Greeks, from Cretans to Epirots and Macedonians, are largely descended from their Myceanean and Minoan ancestors.

Exactly

[Laberia]

Your question is idiotic at best. You claim that people from other regions of Greece and a few Bulgarians were settled in the Peloponesse, and since everybody understood that the majority of those people were Greeks too, they rendered your claims to be moot.

The study says that this population is basically the same since the Mycenaean times, and the Mycenaeans didn't settle only in the Peloponesse... Thus you have no point really.

The best part though is that you cannot prove that the Greeks of the Peloponesse were simply hiding in the mountains from the Venetians fearing taxation or persecution, and they came down only when they found out that the Venetians were giving away free land. Frankly, I very much doubt that the Venetians had ANY WAY OF FIGURING OUT what was the origin of those who presented themselves requesting free land.

This is my question:


Can you prove that individuals tested are descendants of the people who lived in Peloponnese in sixth century AD? This is the question.
Otherwise, is like testing the descendants of the Irish emigrants in USA for example in order to prove historical events that happened in American Continent before the discover of this continent by Christopher Colombus.

[catgeorge]

Laberia you can not decipher your own shit in the toilet how do you expect to decipher a scientific paper?

[Laberia]

Laberia you can not decipher your own shit in the toilet how do you expect to decipher a scientific paper?

This is not an answer, this is ad hominem. The reason is because you don't have an answer.

[Dorian]

Even Ancient Greece is full of internal immigration of Greek speaking tribes. The population of Ancient Peloponnesus was largely descended from immigrants, the Pelopids who came from Asia Minor (who had previously come to Asia Minor from Greece), the Dorians/Heraklids, the Danaans etc.

You know,reading these now I thought something about the divide of r1a/r1b IE Greeks?If you associate Pelopids with Asia Minor and the return of Dorians it'd explain the R1b in them?Pelopids are also associated with r1b phrygians?so either Heraklids could have both r1a-r1b before their migration through some preGreek minoan-like r1b or they picked it up in anatolia thus making the r1a the original IE Greek haplogroup?just some thoughts

[Tauromachos]

You know,reading these now I thought something about the divide of r1a/r1b IE Greeks?If you associate Pelopids with Asia Minor and the return of Dorians it'd explain the R1b in them?Pelopids are also associated with r1b phrygians?so either Heraklids could have both r1a-r1b before their migration through some preGreek minoan-like r1b or they picked it up in anatolia thus making the r1a the original IE Greek haplogroup?just some thoughts

What do Peloponesians or Dorians have to do with R1a ,where is the proof or source for this?

R1a is roughly 4,4% in todays Mainland Greece according to geneticist Triandafilidis and it peaks the most
there in Macedonia 8,8% not Peloponese

In Crete its even much less,only 2,2%

[Dorian]

What do Peloponesians or Dorians have to do with R1a ,where is the proof or source for this?

R1a is roughly 4,4% in todays Mainland Greece according to geneticist Triandafilidis and it peaks the most
there in Macedonia 8,8% not Peloponese

In Crete its even much less,only 2,2%

None?there's not source,just speculation.I'm just saying that in this forum and others,people often discuss which r1 is the original IE Greek speaking tribe?some say it's r1b and support that the r1a could be from thracians(besides the modern slavic one) and others claim it's the r1a that could've come with mycenaeans and that r1b is something foreign(which they associate with Dorians) I really don't know,i'm just hypothesizing that if it's true that the first Greek speakers were one of them,then the other was pre-Greek just like e-v13,j2 etc so later Mycenaeans,Dorians etc could have both but I don't know,it'd be that the first Greek speakers had both.

[Laberia]

Houhouhouhouhouhoulis, waiting for your answer.

[Kouros]

Why do people even reply to these threads? Just let him bump them like a loner next time.

[Laberia]

Why do people even reply to these threads? Just let him bump them like a loner next time.

Lol, exactly why you bump this thread?
I have to repeat, here you are in a forum, learn to behave like a normal person. If you don't agree with something or with everything, the best way is to explain your point view. With this kind of posts you just only confirm that i am right.

[Laberia]

The study may be flawed,
Great. I think we are moving in the right direction, slowly but steadily.

[Fustan]

Man this labradog is really shaming the rest of us Albanians..

[Laberia]

Man this labradog is really shaming the rest of us Albanians..

Sapo jevgu hyri në forum, menjëherë ja more karin në gojë? Kaq servil dhe pa shtyllë kurrizore je? Je tamam racë kurvash dhe bythqirësh.

[Fustan]

bark bark bark bark

[Tauromachos]

Sapo jevgu hyri në forum, menjëherë ja more karin në gojë? Kaq servil dhe pa shtyllë kurrizore je? Je tamam racë kurvash dhe bythqirësh.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64K4SlYR3BU

[Scholarios]

it's easy if you are not an imbecile. You don't need to test them to ancient Hellenes, you just need to test them against modern Slavs- either East, West, or South. The one flaw of the study is of course that it assumes that Slav-speakers that entered the Peloponesse were exactly identical to modern Poles and Russians, which is pretty obviously not true.

BTW these population movements that affected dark age Morea also affected dark age Epirus, including South Albania.


Here is a translation:

In the fourth year of his reign [reign of Nicephorus] took place the transfer of Patras of the Peloponnesus, our country, from the Calabrian city of Rhegium to the
ancient city of Patras. For it had been driven away or rather forced to migrate by the nation of the Slavs when they invaded the First and Second Thessaly and in addition the country of the Aeniantes and that of the Locrians, both the Epiknemidian and
Ozolians, and also ancient Epirus, Attica and Euboea and the Peloponnesus, driving away and destroying the noble Hellenic nations.

Arethas of Caesarea- 932 AD.

So you've got Hellenes in Epirus and Peloponnese, replaced by Slavs, then replaced again by Calabrian Greeks who are supposedly the ancestors of those earlier Hellenes. You may doubt the sources, but a witless worm such as yourself is in no position to question them if he is going to do so in such abjectly poor faith.

So if there is no Greek continuity, there certainly isn't any Albanian one either.

[Herr Abubu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64K4SlYR3BU

Pred. Alpine of Lab variety.

[Laberia]

it's easy if you are not an imbecile. You don't need to test them to ancient Hellenes, you just need to test them against modern Slavs- either East, West, or South. The one flaw of the study is of course that it assumes that Slav-speakers that entered the Peloponesse were exactly identical to modern Poles and Russians, which is pretty obviously not true.
Scholarios, here we are talking about a group of persons, not about hellenes, etc. Nobody asked to test ancient Hellenes. The problem is that we don`t know if the individuals tested are descendants of the same people who lived in Peleponessus when the slavs wiped the ancient greeks. This group of persons maybe are descendants of the people who settled later in the Peninsula, in the next 1.300 years. Brennus gave an great contribution and we proved quoting greek authors that only in one case, in less that 30 years, more that 50% of the population of Peloponessus was replaced by other people. If these individuals are not descendants of the people who lived in Peloponessus during the Slavic invasion, why we have to test them? It`s like testing you in order to prove events that happened in your Island, Chios, prior the settlement of the cumans. Only an imbecile can not understand such a simple concept.


BTW these population movements that affected dark age Morea also affected dark age Epirus, including South Albania.


Here is a translation:

In the fourth year of his reign [reign of Nicephorus] took place the transfer of Patras of the Peloponnesus, our country, from the Calabrian city of Rhegium to the
ancient city of Patras. For it had been driven away or rather forced to migrate by the nation of the Slavs when they invaded the First and Second Thessaly and in addition the country of the Aeniantes and that of the Locrians, both the Epiknemidian and
Ozolians, and also ancient Epirus, Attica and Euboea and the Peloponnesus, driving away and destroying the noble Hellenic nations.

Arethas of Caesarea- 932 AD.

So you've got Hellenes in Epirus and Peloponnese, replaced by Slavs, then replaced against by Calabrian Greeks who are supposedly the ancestors of those earlier Hellenes. You may doubt the sources, but a witless worm such as yourself is in no position to question them if he is going to do so in such abjectly poor faith.

So if there is no Greek continuity, there certainly isn't any Albanian one either.
This is your usuall crap. We have discussed this and i have crushed your cuman scull.
Please stay on topic. We are not discussing about the genetics of Albanians.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Scholarios, here we are talking about a group of persons, not about hellenes, etc. Nobody asked to test ancient Hellenes. The problem is that we don`t know if the individuals tested are descendants of the same people who lived in Peleponessus when the slavs wiped the ancient greeks. This group of persons maybe are descendants of the people who settled later in the Peninsula, in the next 1.300 years. Brennus gave an great contribution and we proved quoting greek authors that only in one case, in less that 30 years, more that 50% of the population of Peloponessus was replaced by other people. If these individuals are not descendants of the people who lived in Peloponessus during the Slavic invasion, why we have to test them? It`s like testing you in order to prove events that happened in your Island, Chios, prior the settlement of the cumans. Only an imbecile can not understand such a simple concept.


This is your usuall crap. We have discussed this and i have crushed your cuman scull.
Please stay on topic. We are not discussing about the genetics of Albanians.

So far only you perceived such a percentage due to your cognitive problems :D no source ever mentioned such numbers

The discussion occupies all of the previous pages anyone can have a look at it

And as I said you are much retarded to understand the purpose of the study, which is not that modern Peloponessians are directed descendants of ancient ones, but that they have limited Slavic or anatolian ancestry

[Fustan]

Labrador just face it! Your [lavic paternal] ancestor was caged in a Huno-Avar prison in this era!

[brennus dux gallorum]

Labrador just face it! Your [lavic paternal] ancestor was caged in a Huno-Avar prison in this era!
You should deport him to Turkey, don't allow such retarded people to pollute your country :D

[Fustan]

You should deport him to Turkey, don't allow such retarded people to pollute your country :D

Turks are good people, they already have enough Dogs to deal with there

[Tauromachos]

So far only you perceived such a percentage due to your cognitive problems :D no source ever mentioned such numbers

The discussion occupies all of the previous pages anyone can have a look at it

And as I said you are much retarded to understand the purpose of the study, which is not that modern Peloponessians are directed descendants of ancient ones, but that they have limited Slavic or anatolian ancestry

Leave it for the moment

Lets talk a little bit about the population of his own country some very important quotes from
a very important scolar


There are several villages in Albania that are inhabited by foreigners, who are somewhat less savage than the natives. Each of these villages is inhabited by only one ethnic group. For instance, one finds villages of Illyrians, Serbs, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks. Each of these colonies conserves its own language and even retains something of its native costumes and primitive customs. The men in these villages normally learn Albanian because they have contacts and need it for trade. But the women only speak their mother tongue according to the country from which the colony arrived. Although I have not spent much time in this country studying the physiognomy of these peoples, I can easily distinguish an Illyrian, a Bulgarian, a Vlach or a Greek from a pure Albanian

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1827_Manzour/index.html

[Tauromachos]

You should deport him to Turkey, don't allow such retarded people to pollute your country :D

I don't think that Turks want him in their country

[Scholarios]

Scholarios, here we are talking about a group of persons, not about hellenes, etc. Nobody asked to test ancient Hellenes. The problem is that we don`t know if the individuals tested are descendants of the same people who lived in Peleponessus when the slavs wiped the ancient greeks. This group of persons maybe are descendants of the people who settled later in the Peninsula, in the next 1.300 years. Brennus gave an great contribution and we proved quoting greek authors that only in one case, in less that 30 years, more that 50% of the population of Peloponessus was replaced by other people. If these individuals are not descendants of the people who lived in Peloponessus during the Slavic invasion, why we have to test them? It`s like testing you in order to prove events that happened in your Island, Chios, prior the settlement of the cumans. Only an imbecile can not understand such a simple concept.


This is your usuall crap. We have discussed this and i have crushed your cuman scull.
Please stay on topic. We are not discussing about the genetics of Albanians.

My apologies- For a moment I thought you might have been entertaining the idea of rational discussion. In my absence I forgot you are a fraudulent little troll.

Q: Wouldn't your time be better spent selling watches on the exit of Morea Highway?

[wvwvw]

My Geneplaza results show 0 Eastern Europe, 0 South Slav, East or West Slav which is consistent with my 0 East European at 23andme.

Amazing how the Slavs replaced the Greeks and the latter still manage to be genetically similar to Myceneans and Minoans.

Any undetected Slavic we might have is welcome though. It's cool to have some Slavic.

[Lavrentis]

Great. I think we are moving in the right direction, slowly but steadily.

The study is not flawed of course, it is an excellent proffesional job which proves what is already known. That Scholarios guy is simply a troll who is making fun of you and people like Raine.

[Scholarios]

The study is not flawed of course, it is an excellent proffesional job which proves what is already known. That Scholarios guy is simply a troll who is making fun of you and people like Raine.

It is flawed, but not flawed in the way Laviria thinks it is. The laughable comparison of modern Russians to the proto-Slavs is the most obvious way. The ironic point is of course that Labs came down and replaced Greeks and Slavs of Epiurs, while Calabrian and Anatolian Greeks (and later Arvanites) came down to replace the Slavs of MOREA.

[Laberia]

The study is not flawed of course, it is an excellent proffesional job which proves what is already known. That Scholarios guy is simply a troll who is making fun of you and people like Raine.
Lavrentis, i consider you an intelligent person, nothing to do with the bunch of retards here, Cyberfaggot, brennus, Keraunos, etc. But this time you are asking too much from yourself.
Scholarios is not trolling. Scholarios, if you want a correct definition, is an idiot who pretend and believe to be an intelligent person. His biggest success is the virtual blow job given to him by these three basement rats.
Just read his words to understand why he is an idiot:

It is flawed, but not flawed in the way Laberia thinks it is.
.... while Calabrian and Anatolian Greeks (and later Arvanites) came down to replace the Slavs of MOREA.
The rest of his post is a total crap. He suffer so much the fact that after i started to post in this forum, his good times finished.

[Kouros]

The study is not flawed of course, it is an excellent proffesional job which proves what is already known. That Scholarios guy is simply a troll who is making fun of you and people like Raine.

He made this thread for attention as usual. He presents these threads as if he is opening up a debate but he will deny anything that hurts his stance because in reality he is not capable of rational discussion. Oh, and he actually doesn't know jack shit about genetics or scientific method. He asked one question on here about sample size and thought he was fit to refute a journal article the day after :pound: He is so incredulous it's hilarious.

[Lavrentis]

The laughable comparison of modern Russians to the proto-Slavs is the most obvious way.

Comparing modern Poles to proto-Slavs absolutely makes sense though.


while Calabrian and Anatolian Greeks (and later Arvanites) came down to replace the Slavs of MOREA.

True.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Laberia]

True.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
True? But the problem is that the conclusion of Scholarios:

while Calabrian and Anatolian Greeks (and later Arvanites) came down to replace the Slavs of MOREA.
is completely contrary to that of the authors of the study:

Our results reject the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers.
What is the truth here?

[Laberia]

Cyberfaggot, my faithful little dog that follows me everywhere. Now i am going to the toilet and do not need that you follow me, i want some privacy little puppy, go to sleep, dismiss.

[wvwvw]

The Peloponnesians were never replaced by anyone. That culturomarxist Arabid piece of trash Schulikarios does not believe in concepts such as race or ethnos, and certainly does not believe that such thing as Greeks exist.

Recall how a few years ago he would mock everyone who would even hint that modern Greeks may descend from Ancient Greeks. That Slavs replaced Greeks et cetera, et cetera. Then it was Armenians, Arabs and whoever other that arabid imagined.

I am glad the latest genetic studies of Peloponnesians as well as that of Myceneans proved that rat wrong. That hellenized rat is arabid and armenoid at heart, he has zero Greek consciousness and he is as credible as a Turk is when he talks about Greeks.

[brennus dux gallorum]

To be honest I also see a problem with that study, which is in its abstract. Such a theory as " Peloponnesians were exitinct" does not exist, it is supported by a particular chronicle of 9th century, which is supposed to talk about 6th century, with zero sources of this time or archaeological data confirming it.

[Kouros]

I see the Labrador is still barking. Hopefully he get's put down soon, I really hate too see animals suffer.

[Tauromachos]

I see the Labrador is still barking. Hopefully he get's put down soon, I really hate too see animals suffer.

He is more a Pug than a real Labrador though

This is exactly what Laberia is
Watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69fDTS2ZHsM

[Scholarios]

The Peloponnesians were never replaced by anyone. That culturomarxist Arabid piece of trash Schulikarios does not believe in concepts such as race or ethnos, and certainly does not believe that such thing as Greeks exist.

Recall how a few years ago he would mock everyone who would even hint that modern Greeks may descend from Ancient Greeks. That Slavs replaced Greeks et cetera, et cetera. Then it was Armenians, Arabs and whoever other that arabid imagined.

I am glad the latest genetic studies of Peloponnesians as well as that of Myceneans proved that rat wrong. That hellenized rat is arabid and armenoid at heart, he has zero Greek consciousness and he is as credible as a Turk is when he talks about Greeks.


LOL that's a good one- the study of the Myceneans shows no such thing. It shows that we are significantly different, but Neo-Greeks such as yourself have twisted it pretty hardcore. ( I don't suppose I'll get much support on that on such a forum as this). But I saw gradually the shock of the study by imbeciles such as yourself become replaced by the most grandiose wishful thinking as time went on.

The Peloponnesian study shows one thing. Modern Peloponnesians have little similarity with modern Poles and Russians lol. Only the most extremist imbecile would ever even begin to make such a comparison. The truth is that Greece was swarmed with a number of Slavs much greater than the ratio of refugees to Greeks in the modern situation. So much so that "not a single Roman could set foot in the Peloponnese" for for more than 200 years. Can you imagine all the fucking and assimilation that can happen in the space of 200 years? Byzantine Romans didn't have a concept of ethnicity in our manner, and thus Slavs who paid taxes and were Christian were 'Romans' and those that didn't were pagan Slavs. These 'non-Romans' were expelled and replaced by not only Greeks, but various others. Later, more Vlachs and Albanians came, plus Franks. These populations of course stabilized and mixed with other Greeks thus creating the average of a modern Greek. No Balkan population is different in this respect.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C9J2e2IYGZJ6N6IRvDPbHFdiFO7gVMBBCISyJiGaZh28pv1d-0A4YSZAU4-wE801r6oikPqtwTpMM3qgQdzLJ34JioE6AH-7kOEKOPQO8NfWo3WmfGsO-I86kEsXjNxu40cLrUeo5SsQO6zoEOzQylAN4yL-bZAozRnCP-oMGITUgyrAw7MWtPfkk63bD7m39W7pKTEaaM0PvwQFFh1R881p VcwExnh3heQVAx8Zaat4mxJGBfSCDFbyLzmNXmtz2b24sw9J9X W6_8C9zsiq3vhax5NSnqJwcY364Edirpq72h0pfXgYr6Qna96v tYKcOaqevB9p336HBLOclUy0-GmkBJ6_Skz0SptwOrDKoo-ZMZp4T2NjyS1eDW642uJQcqb4UEzMAcTM2KIu6XwQBJHj_8t8d 0vlrf-jZwJTh2MPfA__mDQVrI6pOWiEIMmWcMoweOI2udGBmG5M4kNKC naB1HmmJwv7J0bcWfaLsf93FHcsYt0wdw3KLNMgEHaxiLThiF5-j5KCYvcxL_uloxqjRGr6CO2NbnXl98BAsaTTl9OVxGTP8_fRZC qiFKM8H8msPc2dXgo9Y6N-zy8ta--IcOAYTCQOYRydQd75vQ=w715-h343-no


Why calling me Arabid btw? I guarantee I am "whiter" than you.

[Laberia]

LOL that's a good one- the study of the Myceneans shows no such thing. It shows that we are significantly different, but Neo-Greeks such as yourself have twisted it pretty hardcore. ( I don't suppose I'll get much support on that on such a forum as this). But I saw gradually the shock of the study by imbeciles such as yourself become replaced by the most grandiose wishful thinking as time went on.

The Peloponnesian study shows one thing. Modern Peloponnesians have little similarity with modern Poles and Russians lol. Only the most extremist imbecile would ever even begin to make such a comparison. The truth is that Greece was swarmed with a number of Slavs much greater than the ratio of refugees to Greeks in the modern situation. So much so that "not a single Roman could set foot in the Peloponnese" for for more than 200 years. Can you imagine all the fucking and assimilation that can happen in the space of 200 years? Byzantine Romans didn't have a concept of ethnicity in our manner, and thus Slavs who paid taxes and were Christian were 'Romans' and those that didn't were pagan Slavs. These 'non-Romans' were expelled and replaced by not only Greeks, but various others. Later, more Vlachs and Albanians came, plus Franks. These populations of course stabilized and mixed with other Greeks thus creating the average of a modern Greek. No Balkan population is different in this respect.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C9J2e2IYGZJ6N6IRvDPbHFdiFO7gVMBBCISyJiGaZh28pv1d-0A4YSZAU4-wE801r6oikPqtwTpMM3qgQdzLJ34JioE6AH-7kOEKOPQO8NfWo3WmfGsO-I86kEsXjNxu40cLrUeo5SsQO6zoEOzQylAN4yL-bZAozRnCP-oMGITUgyrAw7MWtPfkk63bD7m39W7pKTEaaM0PvwQFFh1R881p VcwExnh3heQVAx8Zaat4mxJGBfSCDFbyLzmNXmtz2b24sw9J9X W6_8C9zsiq3vhax5NSnqJwcY364Edirpq72h0pfXgYr6Qna96v tYKcOaqevB9p336HBLOclUy0-GmkBJ6_Skz0SptwOrDKoo-ZMZp4T2NjyS1eDW642uJQcqb4UEzMAcTM2KIu6XwQBJHj_8t8d 0vlrf-jZwJTh2MPfA__mDQVrI6pOWiEIMmWcMoweOI2udGBmG5M4kNKC naB1HmmJwv7J0bcWfaLsf93FHcsYt0wdw3KLNMgEHaxiLThiF5-j5KCYvcxL_uloxqjRGr6CO2NbnXl98BAsaTTl9OVxGTP8_fRZC qiFKM8H8msPc2dXgo9Y6N-zy8ta--IcOAYTCQOYRydQd75vQ=w715-h343-no


Why calling me Arabid btw? I guarantee I am "whiter" than you.

Seems that roughly we settled our differences and we share the same opinion that this study is a crap.
Now the next question is:
Why your scholars continue with this Greek tradition of falsification of history? Because it has become a vice among your scholars, for at least two centuries.

[Tauromachos]

"There are several villages in Albania that are inhabited by foreigners, who are somewhat less savage than the natives. Each of these villages is inhabited by only one ethnic group. For instance, one finds villages of Illyrians, Serbs, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks. Each of these colonies conserves its own language and even retains something of its native costumes and primitive customs. The men in these villages normally learn Albanian because they have contacts and need it for trade. But the women only speak their mother tongue according to the country from which the colony arrived. Although I have not spent much time in this country studying the physiognomy of these peoples, I can easily distinguish an Illyrian, a Bulgarian, a Vlach or a Greek from a pure Albanian"

"The Labs [Lapes] live in a region called Laberia, a mountainous territory situated between Toskeria to the north and east, Chameria to the south, and the Adriatic Sea to the west. The members of this tribe are the dirtiest and crudest of all the Albanian nation, and this is no exaggeration. Their ignorance surpasses all imagination."

Ibrahim Manzour about Albania 1827

Very important Scolar!!


Very important Scolar!!

[Sikeliot]

LOL that's a good one- the study of the Myceneans shows no such thing. It shows that we are significantly different, but Neo-Greeks such as yourself have twisted it pretty hardcore. ( I don't suppose I'll get much support on that on such a forum as this). But I saw gradually the shock of the study by imbeciles such as yourself become replaced by the most grandiose wishful thinking as time went on.

The Peloponnesian study shows one thing. Modern Peloponnesians have little similarity with modern Poles and Russians lol. Only the most extremist imbecile would ever even begin to make such a comparison. The truth is that Greece was swarmed with a number of Slavs much greater than the ratio of refugees to Greeks in the modern situation. So much so that "not a single Roman could set foot in the Peloponnese" for for more than 200 years. Can you imagine all the fucking and assimilation that can happen in the space of 200 years? Byzantine Romans didn't have a concept of ethnicity in our manner, and thus Slavs who paid taxes and were Christian were 'Romans' and those that didn't were pagan Slavs. These 'non-Romans' were expelled and replaced by not only Greeks, but various others. Later, more Vlachs and Albanians came, plus Franks. These populations of course stabilized and mixed with other Greeks thus creating the average of a modern Greek. No Balkan population is different in this respect.
.


The difference of Mycenaeans to Greeks today, both mainland and island, seems significant to me, as does the difference of Mycenaean to Sicilian.

Mycenaeans had significantly more Sardinian-like "Western Mediterranean" influence as a portion of their total DNA than do any Greeks today, and significantly less Northeast European type admixture than modern mainlanders, and significantly less Levantine type affinity than modern islanders or southern Italians. PCA placement aside, it seems to me like Mycenaeans were unlike any modern people as a whole.

As far as Peloponnesians go, I do not think they have much Slavic, but they do have some Steppe ancestry, as well as a genetic shift westward. Most Peloponnesian results I see come fairly close to people in Abruzzo or Adriatic Italy overall, and are less shifted toward their northern neighbors than many other regions of Greece are.

[Tauromachos]

From another study on ancient Mycanaean DNA https://englianos.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/on-genetics-and-the-aegean-bronze-age/


On a final note, I kept thinking while reading this article that many Greeks will certainly welcome the conclusion that the modern populations most similar to the Mycenaeans are Greeks, Cypriots, Italians, and Albanians

[wvwvw]

LOL that's a good one- the study of the Myceneans shows no such thing. It shows that we are significantly different, but Neo-Greeks such as yourself have twisted it pretty hardcore. ( I don't suppose I'll get much support on that on such a forum as this). But I saw gradually the shock of the study by imbeciles such as yourself become replaced by the most grandiose wishful thinking as time went on.

The Peloponnesian study shows one thing. Modern Peloponnesians have little similarity with modern Poles and Russians lol. Only the most extremist imbecile would ever even begin to make such a comparison. The truth is that Greece was swarmed with a number of Slavs much greater than the ratio of refugees to Greeks in the modern situation. So much so that "not a single Roman could set foot in the Peloponnese" for for more than 200 years. Can you imagine all the fucking and assimilation that can happen in the space of 200 years? Byzantine Romans didn't have a concept of ethnicity in our manner, and thus Slavs who paid taxes and were Christian were 'Romans' and those that didn't were pagan Slavs. These 'non-Romans' were expelled and replaced by not only Greeks, but various others. Later, more Vlachs and Albanians came, plus Franks. These populations of course stabilized and mixed with other Greeks thus creating the average of a modern Greek. No Balkan population is different in this respect.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C9J2e2IYGZJ6N6IRvDPbHFdiFO7gVMBBCISyJiGaZh28pv1d-0A4YSZAU4-wE801r6oikPqtwTpMM3qgQdzLJ34JioE6AH-7kOEKOPQO8NfWo3WmfGsO-I86kEsXjNxu40cLrUeo5SsQO6zoEOzQylAN4yL-bZAozRnCP-oMGITUgyrAw7MWtPfkk63bD7m39W7pKTEaaM0PvwQFFh1R881p VcwExnh3heQVAx8Zaat4mxJGBfSCDFbyLzmNXmtz2b24sw9J9X W6_8C9zsiq3vhax5NSnqJwcY364Edirpq72h0pfXgYr6Qna96v tYKcOaqevB9p336HBLOclUy0-GmkBJ6_Skz0SptwOrDKoo-ZMZp4T2NjyS1eDW642uJQcqb4UEzMAcTM2KIu6XwQBJHj_8t8d 0vlrf-jZwJTh2MPfA__mDQVrI6pOWiEIMmWcMoweOI2udGBmG5M4kNKC naB1HmmJwv7J0bcWfaLsf93FHcsYt0wdw3KLNMgEHaxiLThiF5-j5KCYvcxL_uloxqjRGr6CO2NbnXl98BAsaTTl9OVxGTP8_fRZC qiFKM8H8msPc2dXgo9Y6N-zy8ta--IcOAYTCQOYRydQd75vQ=w715-h343-no


Why calling me Arabid btw? I guarantee I am "whiter" than you.

That's exactly what it shows Arabic rat. The genetic studies on Peloponnesians completely trashed your arguments. Still the Peloponnesians are similar to Mycenean Greeks.

Still Peloponnesians score 0 East Euro, 0 South Slavic, 0 East Slavic or West Slavic compeared to Bulgarians, and everyone else in the Balkans.

Albania which is full of Slavic toponyms has 0 Slavic as well. The Slavs were repelled within 100 years after they entered Greek and those few they assimilated were never numerically significant to make a difference in the greater genetic Greek pool.

The Franks never colonized Greece you Armenoid raped whore. Just because everyone in your rat clan was raped by Armenoids and Arabs, don't assume same thing happened to others. Even the sources than Laberia posts have more cedibility than the "scholars" and "sources" you quote. You are one of the most biased anti Greek armenoid rat Apricity has ever seen.

[Laberia]

The difference of Mycenaeans to Greeks today, both mainland and island, seems significant to me, as does the difference of Mycenaean to Sicilian.

Mycenaeans had significantly more Sardinian-like "Western Mediterranean" influence as a portion of their total DNA than do any Greeks today, and significantly less Northeast European type admixture than modern mainlanders, and significantly less Levantine type affinity than modern islanders or southern Italians. PCA placement aside, it seems to me like Mycenaeans were unlike any modern people as a whole.

As far as Peloponnesians go, I do not think they have much Slavic, but they do have some Steppe ancestry, as well as a genetic shift westward. Most Peloponnesian results I see come fairly close to people in Abruzzo or Adriatic Italy overall, and are less shifted toward their northern neighbors than many other regions of Greece are.

I want to ask you publicly a direct question and i want a response in the same way.
Is it possible that you as administrator of this forum guarantee a normal participation in this forum of the interested people? I am referring to the scandalous attitude of at least two members here, cybernautic and Keraunos who are doing everything to destroy every thread. In every normal forum they could not continue for 24 hours, they are immediately banned.

Regards
Labëria

[wvwvw]

The difference of Mycenaeans to Greeks today, both mainland and island, seems significant to me, as does the difference of Mycenaean to Sicilian.

Mycenaeans had significantly more Sardinian-like "Western Mediterranean" influence as a portion of their total DNA than do any Greeks today, and significantly less Northeast European type admixture than modern mainlanders, and significantly less Levantine type affinity than modern islanders or southern Italians. PCA placement aside, it seems to me like Mycenaeans were unlike any modern people as a whole.

As far as Peloponnesians go, I do not think they have much Slavic, but they do have some Steppe ancestry, as well as a genetic shift westward. Most Peloponnesian results I see come fairly close to people in Abruzzo or Adriatic Italy overall, and are less shifted toward their northern neighbors than many other regions of Greece are.

Geneticists point out the genetic similarities between modern Greeks and their ancient relatives are “particularly striking".

What is striking is the difference between Sicilians and Levantine groups, despite the minor similarities that you so much love to magnify and emphasize.

[wvwvw]

From another study on ancient Mycanaean DNA


On a final note, I kept thinking while reading this article that many Greeks will certainly welcome the conclusion that the modern populations most similar to the Mycenaeans are Greeks, Cypriots, Italians, and Albanians

https://englianos.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/on-genetics-and-the-aegean-bronze-age/

All the places where Greeks had established themselves in antiquity.

[Tauromachos]

I want to ask you publicly a direct question and i want a response in the same way.
Is it possible that you as administrator of this forum guarantee a normal participation in this forum of the interested people? I am referring to the scandalous attitude of at least two members here, cybernautic and Keraunos who are doing everything to destroy every thread. In every normal forum they could not continue for 24 hours, they are immediately banned.

Regards
Labëria


In every normal forum they could not continue for 24 hours, they are immediately banned.



In every other forum you would have been banned within 3 days

Go and make an account at anthroscape
Lets see how long you do survive there.

[wvwvw]

"There are several villages in Albania that are inhabited by foreigners, who are somewhat less savage than the natives. Each of these villages is inhabited by only one ethnic group. For instance, one finds villages of Illyrians, Serbs, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks. Each of these colonies conserves its own language and even retains something of its native costumes and primitive customs. The men in these villages normally learn Albanian because they have contacts and need it for trade. But the women only speak their mother tongue according to the country from which the colony arrived. Although I have not spent much time in this country studying the physiognomy of these peoples, I can easily distinguish an Illyrian, a Bulgarian, a Vlach or a Greek from a pure Albanian"

"The Labs [Lapes] live in a region called Laberia, a mountainous territory situated between Toskeria to the north and east, Chameria to the south, and the Adriatic Sea to the west. The members of this tribe are the dirtiest and crudest of all the Albanian nation, and this is no exaggeration. Their ignorance surpasses all imagination."

Ibrahim Manzour about Albania 1827

Very important Scolar!!


Very important Scolar!!


It is one thing to exist some random Bulgarian and Serbian and Turkish villages and quite another to claim the Serbs and Bulgarians replaced the native inhabitants i.e the Albanians and Greeks who were numerically infinitely superior.

[wvwvw]

Seems that roughly we settled our differences and we share the same opinion that this study is a crap.
Now the next question is:
Why your scholars continue with this Greek tradition of falsification of history? Because it has become a vice among your scholars, for at least two centuries.

This study is backed up by another study, that of Myceneans and modern Greeks which completely thrashes Fallmerayer's theory.

Experts from the University of Washington, the Harvard Medical School and the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, together with archaeologists and other collaborators in Greece and Turkey, gathered data from the region.
The researchers analysed tooth DNA from the remains of 19 ancient individuals who could be definitively identified as Minoans of Crete, Mycenaeans of mainland Greece, and people who lived in southwestern Anatolia.

They compared the Minoan and Mycenaean genomes to each other and to more than 330 other ancient genomes and over 2,600 genomes of present-day humans from around the world.

STUDY CONCLUSIONS
While the new study does not resolve all the outstanding questions, it provides key answers.

Importantly, the findings disprove the widely held theory that the Mycenaeans were a foreign population in the Aegean and were not related to the Minoans.

The results also dispel the theory that modern Greeks did not descend from the Mycenaeans and later ancient Greek populations.

It shows that there was genetic continuity in the Aegean from the time of the first farmers to present-day Greece, but not in isolation.

The peoples of the Greek mainland also bred with ancient North Eurasians and peoples of the Eastern European steppe, both before and after the time of the Minoans and Mycenaeans.

This may provide the missing link between Greek speakers and their linguistic relatives elsewhere in Europe and Asia.
The study underscores the power of analysis of ancient DNA to solve vexing historical problems and sets the stage for many future studies that promise to untangle the threads of history, archaeology, and language, its authors say.

[Laberia]

In every other forum you would have been banned within 3 days

Go and make an account at anthroscape
Lets see how long you do survive there.

Was you who asked me to start this thread. Now you are asking me create an account in Anthroscape.

[brennus dux gallorum]

So much so that "not a single Roman could set foot in the Peloponnese" for for more than 200 years. Can you imagine all the fucking and assimilation that can happen in the space of 200 years? Byzantine Romans didn't have a concept of ethnicity in our manner, and thus Slavs who paid taxes and were Christian were 'Romans' and those that didn't were pagan Slavs. These 'non-Romans' were expelled and replaced by not only Greeks, but various others. Later, more Vlachs and Albanians came, plus Franks. These populations of course stabilized and mixed with other Greeks thus creating the average of a modern Greek. No Balkan population is different in this respect.

The study is talking about Peloponnese, not thessaly to claim "vlach" colonists. Also, these "200 years" you are talking about are referred in a chronicle of 9th century, with zero chronicles during these 200 years or archaeological sources confirming it

For sure there were slavic invaders, there are 450 (out of some hudreds of thousands) slavic toponyms in Peloponnese, which indicates their presence, but natives had always been the majority

[Tauromachos]

For sure there were slavic invaders, there are 450 (out of some hudreds of thousands) slavic toponyms in Peloponnese, which indicates their presence, but natives had always been the majority

Sorry but why do we have to believe they came as Invadors?

What is so irrational to say that some Slavs simply came to the region as settlers and they were given some land by the Byzantines to breed their cattle
and for farming.
And that they were employed as Soldiers in the army,yes

How is this an Invasion exactly?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Sorry but why do we have to believe they came as Invadors?

What is so irrational to say that some Slavs simply came to the region as settlers and they were given some land by the Byzantines to breed their cattle
and for farming.
And that they were employed as Soldiers in the army,yes

How is this an Invasion exactly?

because they sacked the lands the way Franks later did, something that simple settlers don't do. however, there were some cases that they were settlers and respected local authorities

[Tauromachos]

because they sacked the lands the way Franks later did, something that simple settlers don't do. however, there were some cases that they were settlers and respected local authorities

I only know one real account of Slavs in Far Southern Greece.

And this is in the chronicles of Byzantines.

The Byzantines allowed two Slavic tribes Melingi and Ezerites to settle there and provided land for agriculture and cattle breeding to them.
And employed them as soldiers.
Similar to the case of Arvanites.


Certainly the Slavs carried some Arms and some military skills ,so they might have clashed sometimes with the locals.

But other than that the Peloponnese was never full of Slavs.

[Scholarios]

Seems that roughly we settled our differences and we share the same opinion that this study is a crap.
Now the next question is:
Why your scholars continue with this Greek tradition of falsification of history? Because it has become a vice among your scholars, for at least two centuries.

It is not the study that is crap exactly, it is after all peer reviewed. It is the conclusion and the inferiority complexes about the stupidest shit- which you are also a pure example of judging from your posts, your avatar, and your blood feud with Greeks, who you have more in common with than dispute in reality.



The study is talking about Peloponnese, not thessaly to claim "vlach" colonists. Also, these "200 years" you are talking about are referred in a chronicle of 9th century, with zero chronicles during these 200 years or archaeological sources confirming it

For sure there were slavic invaders, there are 450 (out of some hudreds of thousands) slavic toponyms in Peloponnese, which indicates their presence, but natives had always been the majority

There were "zero chronicles" during these two hundred years because the Slavs were illiterate pagans and the the Morea was out of reach of Imperial authorities.

I agree that Slavs were the minority, but in some subregions they must have been majority- for instance being pushed into a few areas after the Byzantine reconquista. (Arkadia comes to mind where the area around Tripoli seems full of very "Balkan" sounding names.) Vlachs also came to these areas, as they were pastoral- and I believe many of so-called "Arvanites" were in reality Vlachs. All these were minorities and were Hellenized and the fact that some Greeks (and Albanians) have Slavonic-speaking ancestors is about as relevant to our identity as Herodotus' Carian ancestors were to his, Demosthenes' Scythian mother, or Themistokles' Thracian ancestors. But there's no rational reason to deny it. Fuck this worm Laviria for even trying to bring it up in the most pathetic way possible.



That's exactly what it shows Arabic rat. The genetic studies on Peloponnesians completely trashed your arguments. Still the Peloponnesians are similar to Mycenean Greeks.

You can keep telling yourself that. Greeks have changed, as most populations have changed in 4000 years. Also Greek is pronounced different before ;)


Still Peloponnesians score 0 East Euro, 0 South Slavic, 0 East Slavic or West Slavic compeared to Bulgarians, and everyone else in the Balkans.

and yet... and yet.... that damn 20% r1a and i21b. Can you guess where their matches are? hmmmmmmmmmmm


The Slavs were repelled within 100 years after they entered Greek and those few they assimilated were never numerically significant to make a difference in the greater genetic Greek pool.

Nope, they lived in Greece unmolested for hundreds of years. Also they lived unmolested in North Greece until living memory. We call them "Bulgars" you know still up in Florina.


The Franks never colonized Greece you Armenoid raped whore. Just because everyone in your rat clan was raped by Armenoids and Arabs, don't assume same thing happened to others. Even the sources than Laberia posts have more cedibility than the "scholars" and "sources" you quote. You are one of the most biased anti Greek armenoid rat Apricity has ever seen.

Frankish Colonization of Greece. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankokratia)

Aren't you a raped Frank vestige? dat ydna.

[Scholarios]

...

[Tauromachos]

This thread in a Nutshell


:picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/175/315/PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg

[Laberia]

It is not the study that is crap exactly, it is after all peer reviewed. It is the conclusion and the inferiority complexes about the stupidest shit- which you are also a pure example of judging from your posts, your avatar, and your blood feud with Greeks, who you have more in common with than dispute in reality.




There were "zero chronicles" during these two hundred years because the Slavs were illiterate pagans and the the Morea was out of reach of Imperial authorities.

I agree that Slavs were the minority, but in some subregions they must have been majority- for instance being pushed into a few areas after the Byzantine reconquista. (Arkadia comes to mind where the area around Tripoli seems full of very "Balkan" sounding names.) Vlachs also came to these areas, as they were pastoral- and I believe many of so-called "Arvanites" were in reality Vlachs. All these were minorities and were Hellenized and the fact that some Greeks (and Albanians) have Slavonic-speaking ancestors is about as relevant to our identity as Herodotus' Carian ancestors were to his, Demosthenes' Scythian mother, or Themistokles' Thracian ancestors. But there's no rational reason to deny it. Fuck this worm Laviria for even trying to bring it up in the most pathetic way possible.




You can keep telling yourself that. Greeks have changed, as most populations have changed in 4000 years. Also Greek is pronounced different before ;)



and yet... and yet.... that damn 20% r1a and i21b. Can you guess where their matches are? hmmmmmmmmmmm



Nope, they lived in Greece unmolested for hundreds of years. Also they lived unmolested in North Greece until living memory. We call them "Bulgars" you know still up in Florina.



Frankish Colonization of Greece. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankokratia)

Aren't you a raped Frank vestige? dat ydna.

For a moment i had the perception, evidently wrong, that finally we could have a normal and civil conversation. Maybe we have to wait for some time, i am full of hope.
As for your post, you continue to be contradictory. But important is that we agree that the conclusion is wrong. I will concede you an favor. Let say that there is no agenda behind this, maybe these scholars are a little bit stupid, or something like this.
I want to give you an advice. Don't fell at the same level like these due disgusting individuals, Cyberfaggot and Keraunos or like the basement rats. Let's try from now on to have only normal discussion. Come on dude, after few days is Christmas.
OK, thanks for your time. See you around dude.

[Lavrentis]

What is the truth here?

That most Peloponnesians are descended from the original population of the region, but a part of Peloponnesians might be descended from the Anatolians, Arvanites and south Italian Greeks who came to repopulate Peloponnese after the Slavs were expelled.


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[Lavrentis]

LOL that's a good one- the study of the Myceneans shows no such thing. It shows that we are significantly different, but Neo-Greeks such as yourself have twisted it pretty hardcore.

What are you talking about? The study of the Mycenaeans shows that Greeks are about 70% similar to the ancient Mycenaeans.


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[Lavrentis]

The Peloponnesians were never replaced by anyone. That culturomarxist Arabid piece of trash Schulikarios does not believe in concepts such as race or ethnos, and certainly does not believe that such thing as Greeks exist.

Recall how a few years ago he would mock everyone who would even hint that modern Greeks may descend from Ancient Greeks. That Slavs replaced Greeks et cetera, et cetera. Then it was Armenians, Arabs and whoever other that arabid imagined.

I am glad the latest genetic studies of Peloponnesians as well as that of Myceneans proved that rat wrong. That hellenized rat is arabid and armenoid at heart, he has zero Greek consciousness and he is as credible as a Turk is when he talks about Greeks.

It doesn't matter if that Scholarios guy is a far leftist or something like that. The reason that he chimps out in studies that prove that modern Greeks are related to the ancient Greeks is because he is not Greek himself. He is an Arvanite, and as an Arvanite he has a different origin than other Greeks, and that made him not feel Greek. He is simply, a product of Hellenization, but one of those products that didn't assimilate.

It's either what I said, or that as an Arvanite, he knows that he has no connections to the ancient Greeks, so he tries to drag all Greeks to this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RN97]

Can you prove that individuals tested are descendants of the people who lived in Peloponnese in sixth century AD? This is the question.
Otherwise, is like testing the descendants of the Irish emigrants in USA for example in order to prove historical events that happened in American Continent before the discover of this continent by Christopher Colombus.

Do you even know basic genetics dawg??? He clearly did do so and Journeyman26 pointed it out;

Athough the Peloponnese was bolstered by Greeks from other regions, as well as some other Balkans, the study concludes there is enough identical by descent variation, which are DNA sequences similar in two groups which would be EXTREMELY unlikely to exist due to random mutation. As such, even if the population has changed autosomally, there is still enough IBD similarity to show a connection.
It means that if even in theory the modern Peloponnesians would end up plotting with ancient ones, but be the result of slav-anatolian mutts, that would show in such an analysis. IBD is this;

All individuals in a finite population are related if traced back long enough and will, therefore, share segments of their genomes IBD. During meiosis segments of IBD are broken up by recombination. Therefore, the expected length of an IBD segment depends on the number of generations since the most recent common ancestor at the locus of the segment.
While I do not know how you calculate it or what conclusions you make out of the numbers, clearly the author of the study who is a geneticist knew and he concluded that Peloponnesians today decent from the old ones, not from slavs and anatolians.

[Scholarios]

What are you talking about? The study of the Mycenaeans shows that Greeks are about 70% similar to the ancient Mycenaeans.


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Whatever that means. Ancient Mycenaeans were highly neolithic, so anyone with high neolithic ancesntry in europe are very similar to them. Still no R1a1 and i2a1b found among Myceneans, Minoans, Illyrians, Thracians, etc. (well, one Iranian/Kurdish style R1a found in Thrace)



It doesn't matter if that Scholarios guy is a far leftist or something like that. The reason that he chimps out in studies that prove that modern Greeks are related to the ancient Greeks is because he is not Greek himself. He is an Arvanite, and as an Arvanite he has a different origin than other Greeks, and that made him not feel Greek. He is simply, a product of Hellenization, but one of those products that didn't assimilate.

It's either what I said, or that as an Arvanite, he knows that he has no connections to the ancient Greeks, so he tries to drag all Greeks to this.




Youre a tard on so many levels. I am a Greek and I feel Greek. I just shirk your Neo-Greek propaganda taught to you by your masters. You know, the kind of bootlicker who cries about a couple of parthenon marbles yet claims "una faccia una razza" while Venice uses the entire Komnenian Byzantine treasury and Holy relics of Nea Rome as a tourist attraction. It's really similar to Albanian groveling, if you think about it.

[Lavrentis]

Whatever that means. Ancient Mycenaeans were highly neolithic, so anyone with high neolithic ancesntry in europe are very similar to them. Still no R1a1 and i2a1b found among Myceneans, Minoans, Illyrians, Thracians, etc. (well, one Iranian/Kurdish style R1a found in Thrace)

Most Greeks belong to the J2a haplogroup. The haplogroups you mentioned do exist in Greece, but among a minority and are mostly concentrated in northern Greece, where a good number of assimilations of Slavs (such as Bulgarians) and Vlachs took place.


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[Scholarios]

Most Greeks belong to the J2a haplogroup. The haplogroups you mentioned do exist in Greece, but among a minority and are mostly concentrated in northern Greece, where a good number of assimilations of Slavs (such as Bulgarians) and Vlachs took place.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fore entire Greece theyre almost 30%. They are double digits in Peloponnese. All of Greece is not just Crete.

[Lavrentis]

Youre a tard on so many levels. I am a Greek and I feel Greek. I just shirk your Neo-Greek propaganda taught to you by your masters. You know, the kind of bootlicker who cries about a couple of parthenon marbles yet claims "una faccia una razza" while Venice uses the entire Komnenian Byzantine treasury and Holy relics of Nea Rome as a tourist attraction. It's really similar to Albanian groveling, if you think about it.

I don't cry about the Parthenon marbles, I don't care about the subject. Nor do I shout "una faccia una razza", but I consider south Italians to be my closest kin, outside of Greece.

Also, Venice uses the entire Komnenian treasury and holy relics as a tourist attraction because at one point the Byzantine Empire was so weak that some powers took advantage of it. The strong wins in life, we can't do much about it.


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[Lavrentis]

Fore entire Greece theyre almost 30%. They are double digits in Peloponnese. All of Greece is not just Crete.

Where is the source that these particular haplogroups are almost 30% of Greece? Last time I checked it was around 15%, maybe a little more.

The problem is that you interpret some things wrong. Yes, Slavic markers can reach 10% in Peloponnese, but that doesn't happen because of the Slavic invasions, since the Slavs were droven out of the Peloponnese. The reason that Slavic markers exist in Peloponnese is because after the Slavs were droven out, the Byzantines settled some deserted areas with other people who carried the same haplogroups, such as Bulgarians.


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[Fustan]

LOL that's a good one- the study of the Myceneans shows no such thing. It shows that we are significantly different, but Neo-Greeks such as yourself have twisted it pretty hardcore. ( I don't suppose I'll get much support on that on such a forum as this). But I saw gradually the shock of the study by imbeciles such as yourself become replaced by the most grandiose wishful thinking as time went on.

The Peloponnesian study shows one thing. Modern Peloponnesians have little similarity with modern Poles and Russians lol. Only the most extremist imbecile would ever even begin to make such a comparison. The truth is that Greece was swarmed with a number of Slavs much greater than the ratio of refugees to Greeks in the modern situation. So much so that "not a single Roman could set foot in the Peloponnese" for for more than 200 years. Can you imagine all the fucking and assimilation that can happen in the space of 200 years? Byzantine Romans didn't have a concept of ethnicity in our manner, and thus Slavs who paid taxes and were Christian were 'Romans' and those that didn't were pagan Slavs. These 'non-Romans' were expelled and replaced by not only Greeks, but various others. Later, more Vlachs and Albanians came, plus Franks. These populations of course stabilized and mixed with other Greeks thus creating the average of a modern Greek. No Balkan population is different in this respect.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C9J2e2IYGZJ6N6IRvDPbHFdiFO7gVMBBCISyJiGaZh28pv1d-0A4YSZAU4-wE801r6oikPqtwTpMM3qgQdzLJ34JioE6AH-7kOEKOPQO8NfWo3WmfGsO-I86kEsXjNxu40cLrUeo5SsQO6zoEOzQylAN4yL-bZAozRnCP-oMGITUgyrAw7MWtPfkk63bD7m39W7pKTEaaM0PvwQFFh1R881p VcwExnh3heQVAx8Zaat4mxJGBfSCDFbyLzmNXmtz2b24sw9J9X W6_8C9zsiq3vhax5NSnqJwcY364Edirpq72h0pfXgYr6Qna96v tYKcOaqevB9p336HBLOclUy0-GmkBJ6_Skz0SptwOrDKoo-ZMZp4T2NjyS1eDW642uJQcqb4UEzMAcTM2KIu6XwQBJHj_8t8d 0vlrf-jZwJTh2MPfA__mDQVrI6pOWiEIMmWcMoweOI2udGBmG5M4kNKC naB1HmmJwv7J0bcWfaLsf93FHcsYt0wdw3KLNMgEHaxiLThiF5-j5KCYvcxL_uloxqjRGr6CO2NbnXl98BAsaTTl9OVxGTP8_fRZC qiFKM8H8msPc2dXgo9Y6N-zy8ta--IcOAYTCQOYRydQd75vQ=w715-h343-no


Why calling me Arabid btw? I guarantee I am "whiter" than you.

Mycenean study was important because it shows that the paternal line of most Cretans trace back to those people. You seem to take Autosomal DNA a bit too seriously (which is funny because that's also what this study is doing).

[Laberia]

It doesn't matter if that Scholarios guy is a far leftist or something like that. The reason that he chimps out in studies that prove that modern Greeks are related to the ancient Greeks is because he is not Greek himself. He is an Arvanite, and as an Arvanite he has a different origin than other Greeks, and that made him not feel Greek. He is simply, a product of Hellenization, but one of those products that didn't assimilate.

It's either what I said, or that as an Arvanite, he knows that he has no connections to the ancient Greeks, so he tries to drag all Greeks to this.


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I don`t know if he is Arvanite or not, but he is more greek and more nationalist than all of you together.

[brennus dux gallorum]

There were "zero chronicles" during these two hundred years because the Slavs were illiterate pagans and the the Morea was out of reach of Imperial authorities.
any source supporting such a thing? cause last time I checked there were pretty many archaeological data supporting the opposite, and writing a chronicle doesn't require to "reach" an area. Not to mention that if they couldn't reach the area, how did several dialects such as Tsakonian, or paganism in Mani survive until 10th century? Don't answer anything like "they were adopted by Slavs :D


I agree that Slavs were the minority, but in some subregions they must have been majority- for instance being pushed into a few areas after the Byzantine reconquista. (Arkadia comes to mind where the area around Tripoli seems full of very "Balkan" sounding names.)
I was the first here to claim this thing, that inner Arcadians look from every aspect the most "slavic-mixed", but someone posted a study here which proved the opposite.


Vlachs also came to these areas, as they were pastoral- and I believe many of so-called "Arvanites" were in reality Vlachs. All these were minorities and were Hellenized and the fact that some Greeks (and Albanians) have Slavonic-speaking ancestors is about as relevant to our identity as Herodotus' Carian ancestors were to his, Demosthenes' Scythian mother, or Themistokles' Thracian ancestors. But there's no rational reason to deny it. Fuck this worm Laviria for even trying to bring it up in the most pathetic way possible.

Technically all Arvanites (who were settled in particular areas where they live even today, not everywhere) were "arvanitovlachs", but pure vlach speakers are not recorded

[Tauromachos]

Fore entire Greece theyre almost 30%. They are double digits in Peloponnese. All of Greece is not just Crete.


R1a is about 8,8% in Macedonia"Northen Mainland Greece"

and only 4,4% in all of Mainland Greece.

In Crete there is 2,2% of it.

Populations like Tsakonians and Maniots come out in this study with 1% Slavic or even less.

So they can hardly have alot of R1a.

But i don't expect anything from a guy who classifies himself as SlavoVlachoid

You say your own y-dna is E1b this is anything but not Slavic

[Scholarios]

any source supporting such a thing?

Sure, we have several sources. Of course they are going be scant cuz Dark Ages tend to be low on sources. Any lack of sources only affirms the grip the Avaro-Slavs had on the territories of the former empire. Isidore of Seville mentions that Slavs took "All of Greece" from the Romans, The Miracles of St. Demetrius says the Slavs devastated even the Greek islands before laying siege to Thessaloniki (and that's 100 years after Michael of Syria mentions them at Corinth in 584). Willibald in 732 landed in Monemvasia in "the Land of Slavinia". These are direct evidences. Then there is the lack of coins and the general decline of urban life that characterizes the decrease in Roman population. The relative lack of fortifications in the Peloponnese (compared to Northern Greece and the Balkans) must have been real easy pickings for the Slavs on their march to the sea.





cause last time I checked there were pretty many archaeological data supporting the opposite, and writing a chronicle doesn't require to "reach" an area. Not to mention that if they couldn't reach the area, how did several dialects such as Tsakonian, or paganism in Mani survive until 10th century? Don't answer anything like "they were adopted by Slavs :D

Sure, the archeaological findings of the Slavophobic Greco-Frankish puppet state has almost certainly systematically avoided or destroyed any evidence of Slavic invasions. (same as what Albania had done under Enver Hoxha). Still, there are Slavic potteries found in Argos, Olympia and Corinth. (https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html). These ones (http://web.rgzm.de/en/exhibitions-events/news-details/article/the-slavs-in-the-peloponnese-new-evidence-from-rescue-excavations-in-arcadia.html) were found in my mother's village.

So-called "paganism" is not well attested. We could be talking about any non-Christian pantheon holding sway in the Deep Mani. (Bog and Perun perhaps?) Tsakonian is a tiny dialect, yes, it probably represents the language spoken in the Peloponnese prior to the arrival of the Slavic tribes. The fact that it is such a minor dialect and that it was/is located along the far eastern mountains pushed against the sea should give you another clue just how epic the Slavic population movements were and how deeply they affected the demographics of our tiny little Peloponnese ( But Tsaknonian probably extended into Argolid before the 14th Century). On the Hellenization of the Slavs, Leo the Armenian tells how his father Basil I Hellenized these Slavs:


"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having taught them the Greek language,, subjected them to rulers (Archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".






Technically all Arvanites (who were settled in particular areas where they live even today, not everywhere) were "arvanitovlachs", but pure vlach speakers are not recorded

I have found a quote showing Aromanian spoken in Peloponnese during Ottoman times. I can't locate it at the moment. Anyways, it is pretty obvious that we have Vlachs settling at the northern end of the Gulf of Corinth, it would be odd to suggest that they never crossed over given how prolific a people they were. In fact, the settling of all these tribal people deep in the Morea suggests an origin for the warlike tendencies of certain regions like Mani. We have even Vlachokerassia in Tegea, nearby and the word "Vlachi" didn't enter standard Greek on accident, I think. But I am prepared to be corrected on this one.



R1a is about 8,8% in Macedonia"Northen Mainland Greece"

and only 4,4% in all of Mainland Greece.

In Crete there is 2,2% of it.

Populations like Tsakonians and Maniots come out in this study with 1% Slavic or even less.

So they can hardly have alot of R1a.

But i don't expect anything from a guy who classifies himself as SlavoVlachoid

You say your own y-dna is E1b this is anything but not Slavic

Battaglia finds over 15% in Greek Macedonia, I believe.


Slavovlach started as a joke based on Sikeliot's classification of any non-Italian looking Greek as Slavo-Vlach types. I wear it with pride, yes.

[Laberia]

Sure, we have several sources. Of course they are going be scant cuz Dark Ages tend to be low on sources. Any lack of sources only affirms to grip the Avaro-Slavs had on the territories of the former empire. Isidore of Seville mentions that Slavs took "All of Greece" from the Romans, The Miracles of St. Demetrius says the Slavs devastated even the Greek islands before laying siege to Thessaloniki (and that's 100 years after Michael of Syria mentions them at Corinth in 584). Willibald in 732 landed in Monemvasia in "the Land of Slavinia". These are direct evidences. Then there is the lack of coins and the general decline of urban life that characterizes the decrease in Roman population. The relative lack of fortifications in the Peloponnese (compared to Northern Greece and the Balkans) must have been real easy pickings for the Slavs on their march to the sea.






Sure, the archeaological findings of the Slavophobic Greco-Frankish puppet state has almost certainly systematically avoided or destroyed any evidence of Slavic invasions. (same as what Albania had done under Enver Hoxha). Still, there are Slavic potteries found in Argos, Olympia and Corinth. (https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html). These ones (http://web.rgzm.de/en/exhibitions-events/news-details/article/the-slavs-in-the-peloponnese-new-evidence-from-rescue-excavations-in-arcadia.html) were found in my mother's village.

So-called "paganism" is not well attested. We could be talking about any non-Christian pantheon holding sway in the Deep Mani. (Bog and Perun perhaps?) Tsakonian is a tiny dialect, yes, it probably represents the language spoken in the Peloponnese prior to the arrival of the Slavic tribes. The fact that it is such a minor dialect and that it was/is located along the far eastern mountains pushed against the sea should give you another clue just how epic the Slavic population movements were and how deeply they affected the demographics of our tiny little Peloponnese ( But Tsaknonian probably extended into Argolid before the 14th Century). On the Hellenization of the Slavs, Leo the Armenian tells how his father Basil I Hellenized these Slavs:









I have found a quote showing Aromanian spoken in Peloponnese during Ottoman times. I can't locate it at the moment. Anyways, it is pretty obvious that we have Vlachs settling at the northern end of the Gulf of Corinth, it would be odd to suggest that they never crossed over given how prolific a people they were. In fact, the settling of all these tribal people deep in the Morea suggests an origin for the warlike tendencies of certain regions like Mani. We have even Vlachokerassia in Tegea, nearby and the word "Vlachi" didn't enter standard Greek on accident, I think. But I am prepared to be corrected on this one.




Battaglia finds over 15% in Greek Macedonia, I believe.


Slavovlach started as a joke based on Sikeliot's classification of any non-Italian looking Greek as Slavo-Vlach types. I wear it with pride, yes.

Cut the crap and stop spreading disinformation about Albania and Albanians. Nothing evidence has been destroyed in Albania. Continue with this shit produced by your "scholars".

[Lavrentis]

Sure, we have several sources. Of course they are going be scant cuz Dark Ages tend to be low on sources. Any lack of sources only affirms the grip the Avaro-Slavs had on the territories of the former empire. Isidore of Seville mentions that Slavs took "All of Greece" from the Romans, The Miracles of St. Demetrius says the Slavs devastated even the Greek islands before laying siege to Thessaloniki (and that's 100 years after Michael of Syria mentions them at Corinth in 584). Willibald in 732 landed in Monemvasia in "the Land of Slavinia". These are direct evidences.

There are also the evidences that say that the Slavs who invaded Greece were eventually killed and expelled by the Byzantines.







Sure, the archeaological findings of the Slavophobic Greco-Frankish puppet state has almost certainly systematically avoided or destroyed any evidence of Slavic invasions.

Prove your claims instead of talking like a hysterical retard.


The fact that it is such a minor dialect and that it was/is located along the far eastern mountains pushed against the sea should give you another clue just how epic the Slavic population movements were and how deeply they affected the demographics of our tiny little Peloponnese

1) The Tsakonians were always isolated, they didn't became isolated because of the Slavs. The most accepted theory about them is that they were the original inhabitants of Sparta who fled the city after the Roman conquest.

2) The Slavs were eventually killed and expelled by the Byzantines. The only source that describes their movements as 'epic' is the Chronicle of Monemvasia, and it appears to be very inaccurate. The demographic change happened after the Byzantines replaced the Slavs with Anatolian and south Italian Greeks. They probably replaced them with Hellenized Slavs too though.



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[wvwvw]

That most Peloponnesians are descended from the original population of the region, but a part of Peloponnesians might be descended from the Anatolians, Arvanites and south Italian Greeks who came to repopulate Peloponnese after the Slavs were expelled.

The coming of those Greek peoples had no effect on the local and much more numerous indigenous Peloponnesian population. Asia Minor Greeks are in fact closer to mainland Greeks than Cretans are. The Arvanites were Greeks from the ancient Greek population of Arvana which was also outpost of the byzantine empire controlling vital trade routs between east and west. They always had Greek self awareness and consiciousness in fact during their entire existance.

The origins of Arvanite speakers go back to the 14th century when Albanian clans displaced them from their millenia old greek lands in Albania. They spoke Arvanitika because they traded mostly with Albanians in their region and adapted a version of their language without ofcourse forgetting their own native Greek. And in certain places in Greece, they spoke it to communicate with the Turkalbanian rulers and avoid harassment. Arvanitika used to be intelligeble to other Greeks because nearly half of the arvanite vocabulary was greek.

[Scholarios]

Cut the crap and stop spreading disinformation about Albania and Albanians. Nothing evidence has been destroyed in Albania. Continue with this shit produced by your "scholars".

Sure, Hoxha permitted only one opinion in archeaological matters on the presence of Slavs predating Albanians in any area of Albania. At best Slavic wares were ignored or described as "Illyrian". See Archaeology and Totalitarianism - this is of course (part of) the reason why you are such a fucking moron while thinking the rest of the world are just ignorant. Now go cry somewhere else about your worldview.

[Tauromachos]

Battaglia finds over 15% in Greek Macedonia, I believe.

How much did he find in Tsakonians???



Slavovlach started as a joke based on Sikeliot's classification of any non-Italian looking Greek as Slavo-Vlach types. I wear it with pride, yes.

Ok whatever LoL

[Lavrentis]

R1a is about 8,8% in Macedonia"Northen Mainland Greece"

and only 4,4% in all of Mainland Greece.

In Crete there is 2,2% of it.

Source? Seems possible tbh



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[Scholarios]

How much did he find in Tsakonians???

Well, if you wanted to test the entire population of Tsakonians it wouldnt be hard. There have to be around 500 full blooded ones.

[Lavrentis]

Επισης, ποιοι ειναι αυτοι οι Καφηροι που εστειλαν οι Βυζαντινοι στην Πελοποννησο μαζι με Θρακησιους και Αρμενιους; Το ειδα σε μια πηγη σε αυτο το thread. Πρωτη φορα τους ακουω


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[Laberia]

Sure, Hoxha permitted only one opinion in archeaological matters on the presence of Slavs predating Albanians in any area of Albania. At best Slavic wares were ignored or described as "Illyrian". See Archaeology and Totalitarianism - this is of course (part of) the reason why you are such a fucking moron while thinking the rest of the world are just ignorant. Now go cry somewhere else about your worldview.

Try to be serious. I have to remember that you accused Albania under Enver Hoxha for destroying evidences of Slavic invasion. This are your words.

Sure, the archeaological findings of the Slavophobic Greco-Frankish puppet state has almost certainly systematically avoided or destroyed any evidence of Slavic invasions. (same as what Albania had done under Enver Hoxha)

I want to repeat again my invitation to stop spreading disinformation about Albania and Albanians. We are not like you.
And try to keep an civilized conversation.

[Tauromachos]

Source? Seems possible tbh



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Triandafilidis "The Genetic History of Greece" its written in Greece

Here is a video on his other book where he gives a summary of his work
don't know if he says anything about R1a there but its worth watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZG4JdJdr6g

Here he explains the DNA of modern Greek people
Watch it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv3BZs_vmh0

[Wrong]

Labitcheria destroying every thread!

We Albanians are proud and don't need opportunistic Labrats in here with shit fake history.

[Lavrentis]

Triandafilidis "The Genetic History of Greece" its written in Greece

Here is a video on his other book where he gives a summary of his work
don't know if he says anything about R1a there but its worth watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZG4JdJdr6g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv3BZs_vmh0

Thanks. So this Scholarios guy is caught lying about the percentage of R1a in Greece.


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[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEdmk_z7qzc

[Scholarios]

There are also the evidences that say that the Slavs who invaded Greece were eventually killed and expelled by the Byzantines.








Prove your claims instead of talking like a hysterical retard.



1) The Tsakonians were always isolated, they didn't became isolated because of the Slavs. The most accepted theory about them is that they were the original inhabitants of Sparta who fled the city after the Roman conquest.

2) The Slavs were eventually killed and expelled by the Byzantines. The only source that describes their movements as 'epic' is the Chronicle of Monemvasia, and it appears to be very inaccurate. The demographic change happened after the Byzantines replaced the Slavs with Anatolian and south Italian Greeks. They probably replaced them with Hellenized Slavs too though.



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Lavrentis, my dear, you are a moron and I am afraid as impenetrable as Laberia. If you can post more than single sentence effeminate little stabs, then I might respond to you. Otherwise, I assume you are the blockheaded descendant of some Maghrebi from the Venetian slave market. (https://bloodyshovel.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/the-slave-trade-in-medieval-italy-2/)

[wvwvw]

Επισης, ποιοι ειναι αυτοι οι Καφηροι που εστειλαν οι Βυζαντινοι στην Πελοποννησο μαζι με Θρακησιους και Αρμενιους; Το ειδα σε μια πηγη σε αυτο το thread. Πρωτη φορα τους ακουω


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Κουλτουρομαρξιστικές φαντασιώσεις ενός κορεάτη τουρκογυφτου. Κάθε κειμενο αμφιλεγόμενου περιεχομένου που διαβάζει στο ιντερνετ το παρουσιάζει σαν ιερό κείμενο, για να προωθεί τον ανθελληνισμό του. Κάθε κείμενο που αντικρούει τις πηγές του το παρουσιάζει ως "νεο-ελληνικη" προπαγάνδα. Το νεο-ελληνας ειναι απο τις πιο αγαπημένες του εκφρασεις.

[Lavrentis]

Lavrentis, my dear, you are a moron and I am afraid as impenetrable as Laberia. If you can post more than single sentence effeminate little stabs, then I might respond to you. Otherwise, I assume you are the blockheaded descendant of some Maghrebi from the Venetian slave market. (https://bloodyshovel.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/the-slave-trade-in-medieval-italy-2/)

I insulted you once, because in my opinion, you do sound like a hysterical retard. But you are right, I take it back, only because I want to read your reply to the post you quoted. So, go on.

There are no sources that the Maghrebi slaves left any genetic impact in Crete btw.


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[Tauromachos]

Thanks. So this Scholarios guy is caught lying about the percentage of R1a in Greece.


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Obviously either he wants to troll or he has an agenda.

In either case i rather believe in what a scientist says who is internationaly acknowledged and has spent years of his life
with teams of other scientists to find these results,
than in TA trolls with a particular bias such as Scolarios or Laberia

[wvwvw]

Thanks. So this Scholarios guy is caught lying about the percentage of R1a in Greece.


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Ηe gets aroused merely to the idea he might have foreigner dna. He had been bragging for a long time about his imagined slavic dna, until he got dna tested and he came out as mostly armeno-arabid.

[Wrong]

Obviously either he wants to troll or he has an agenda.

In either case i rather believe in what a scientist says who is internationaly acknowledged and has spent years of his life
with teams of other scientists to find these results,
than in TA trolls with a particular bias such as Scolarios or Laberia
R1a says 18% in North Greece according to this https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It is interesting to note that every region in the South Balkans with high R1a gets increased in I2a1b aswell.

[Lavrentis]

R1a says 18% in North Greece according to this https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It is interesting to note that every region in the South Balkans with high R1a gets increased in I2a1b aswell.

According to Wikipedia and Battaglia 2008, R1a in northern Greece is 10,5%: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population

Anyway, we should remember that Greece still has Slavic people in northern Greece, such as Pomaks and Slavic villages.


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[Scholarios]

Obviously either he wants to troll or he has an agenda.

In either case i rather believe in what a scientist says who is internationaly acknowledged and has spent years of his life
with teams of other scientists to find these results,
than in TA trolls with a particular bias such as Scolarios or Laberia



I long ago wiped my ass with Triandafyllidis' book when it was posted here by Hellenass. No one outside Greece trusts this Poulianos' 2.0. "The Greek DNA IS UNCHANGED 5000 YEARS". But if these kinds of bedtime stories are what you need to sleep at night, far be it from me to disturb you anymore....

[Laberia]

Labitcheria destroying every thread!

We Albanians are proud and don't need opportunistic Labrats in here with shit fake history.

You are not Albanian. You are a degenerate rat of basement, this is what you are. Even other foreign members here can use better the Google translator when they are interested to translate something from Albanian language. You can't speak Albanian.
It's a shame that an degenerate troll like you is a moderator in this forum.

[Tauromachos]

R1a says 18% in North Greece according to this https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It is interesting to note that every region in the South Balkans with high R1a gets increased in I2a1b aswell.

How is Greece a region with high R1a?

Even when i suppose eupedia would be right.
Is R1a as the maximum of R1a in Greece high.

Keep in mind in any case all other regions in Greece have lower R1a than Northern Greece also according to eupedia.

[Danaan]

The Peloponnesian study shows one thing. Modern Peloponnesians have little similarity with modern Poles and Russians lol. Only the most extremist imbecile would ever even begin to make such a comparison. The truth is that Greece was swarmed with a number of Slavs much greater than the ratio of refugees to Greeks in the modern situation. So much so that "not a single Roman could set foot in the Peloponnese" for for more than 200 years. Can you imagine all the fucking and assimilation that can happen in the space of 200 years? Byzantine Romans didn't have a concept of ethnicity in our manner, and thus Slavs who paid taxes and were Christian were 'Romans' and those that didn't were pagan Slavs. These 'non-Romans' were expelled and replaced by not only Greeks, but various others. Later, more Vlachs and Albanians came, plus Franks. These populations of course stabilized and mixed with other Greeks thus creating the average of a modern Greek. No Balkan population is different in this respect.
.
Which populations ARE different in this respect?

[Tauromachos]

I long ago wiped my ass with Triandafyllidis' book when it was posted here by Hellenass.

Yeah and we have to trust an Idiot like you :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Lavrentis]

From my understanding, Greece has more R1a than Albanian but Albania has more I2.


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[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEdmk_z7qzc

[Scholarios]

Which populations ARE different in this respect?

relatively few. which is why the neo-greek instinct to snowball these arguments born out of inferiority complex must be extinguished once and for all.

[Tauromachos]

Any Apricity moron who doubts this study can feel free to visit his side read about his works
and contact him to tell him that he is wrong...

http://www.gs.washington.edu/faculty/stam.htm

[Laberia]

Lavrentis, my dear, you are a moron and I am afraid as impenetrable as Laberia. If you can post more than single sentence effeminate little stabs, then I might respond to you. Otherwise, I assume you are the blockheaded descendant of some Maghrebi from the Venetian slave market. (https://bloodyshovel.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/the-slave-trade-in-medieval-italy-2/)

Scholarios, you accused without facts Albania.
Now let me tell you something. During the riots of 1997, our most important archeologist Neritan Ceka, one of the most important even in European level and later other important Albanian archeologists, denounced that in the most important archeological museum in Albania, in Durrës, every single artefact related to Illyrians was destroyed. From the other side not a single artefact of greek or roman origine was touched. This was absolutely the "job" made by professional people with the support of secret services. And we know that the only country interested in destroying those artefacts are Greece and servia.
In your country, there are specialized structures, probably branches of your secret services, who their task is the falsifications of history and the destroying of proves and evidences that are not in line with your official history.
DO YOU WANT FROM ME TO BRING EVIDENCES ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF THIS STRUCTURES?

[Tauromachos]

Any Apricity moron who doubts this study can feel free to visit George Stamatoyannopoulo's side read about his works
and contact him to tell him that he is wrong...

http://www.gs.washington.edu/faculty/stam.htm

[Scholarios]

Scholarios, you accused without facts Albania.
Now let me tell you something. During the riots of 1997, our most important archeologist Neritan Ceka, one of the most important even in European level and later other important Albanian archeologists, denounced that in the most important archeological museum in Albania, in Durrës, every single artefact related to Illyrians was destroyed. From the other side not a single artefact of greek or roman origine was touched. This was absolutely the "job" made by professional people with the support of secret services. And we know that the only country interested in destroying those artefacts are Greece and servia.
In your country, there are specialized structures, probably branches of your secret services, who their task is the falsifications of history and the destroying of proves and evidences that are not in line with your official history.
DO YOU WANT FROM ME TO BRING EVIDENCES ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF THIS STRUCTURES?


sure thing man.


Any Apricity moron who doubts this study can feel free to visit George Stamatoyannopoulo's side read about his works
and contact him to tell him that he is wrong...

http://www.gs.washington.edu/faculty/stam.htm

this also exists:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506

[Danaan]

relatively few. which is why the neo-greek instinct to snowball these arguments born out of inferiority complex must be extinguished once and for all.

Ι don't know. I believe your stance isn't balanced either.

Do you think that an R1a subclade which is found in Udmurts, Tatars, Hungarians, Austrians and Greeks among others can be called 'Slavic'. Can we use it to measure Slavic admixture?

[Kelmendasi]

Ι don't know. I believe your stance isn't balanced either.

Do you think that an R1a subclade which is found in Udmurts, Tatars, Hungarians, Austrians and Greeks among others can be called 'Slavic'. Can we use it to measure Slavic admixture?
It's because that certain clade evolved in that certain group, not all R1a is the same

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8zc-NmzMBs

[Scholarios]

Ι don't know. I believe your stance isn't balanced either.

Do you think that an R1a subclade which is found in Udmurts, Tatars, Hungarians, Austrians and Greeks among others can be called 'Slavic'. Can we use it to measure Slavic admixture?

We can only say for sure that its relatively high value in Greece is brought in the Middle Ages. The most obvious source being Slavs. It's tied to I2a1b as well and lower values seem to correlate with non-Slavic speaking populations (Greeks and Albanians) so it makes sense.

[Fustan]

Ι don't know. I believe your stance isn't balanced either.

Do you think that an R1a subclade which is found in Udmurts, Tatars, Hungarians, Austrians and Greeks among others can be called 'Slavic'. Can we use it to measure Slavic admixture?

Don't talk about haplogroups when you understand absolutely nothing about them.

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8zc-NmzMBs

[Laberia]

sure thing man.



this also exists:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506


by Greek archaeologist Yannis Hamilakis.
"Apart from recovering material proof of the Hellenicity of an area, archaeologists were also often called upon to cleanse and purify a recently conquered area from any linguistic and material traces of ‘barbarity’. For example, following the conquest of parts of Macedonia and Epirus during the Balkan Wars, the council of the Athens Archaeological Society formed a committee with the participation of archaeologists
from the State Archaeological Service, to ‘cleanse the country from the barbarous names’, to find out the ancient Greek names for the specific places and to Hellenize Turkish, Slavic, and Albanian names
in the cases where ancient Greek ones could not be found (Anon.1914: 73)."

You want more? Can be started an thread with your forgeries. So, please don't bring us in your dirty level.

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8zc-NmzMBs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEdmk_z7qzc



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRYjexMuDLE

[Lavrentis]

sure thing man.



this also exists:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506

This study has been debunked. Fyromians still use it though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scholarios]

You want more? Can be started an thread with your forgeries. So, please don't bring us in your dirty level.

faggot, i have Hamilakis' book (btw Hamilakis disavows genetics completely).

Also, try this one. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=OEnd58DfwmIC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=enver+hoxha+archaeology&source=bl&ots=vhdQRB-iqo&sig=bkQUU_UZ0Z6MPHP9ZA2yPgoqrgg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf7rWO-onYAhUKWbwKHWmKD2oQ6AEINjAB#v=snippet&q=hoxha&f=false)

[Danaan]

We can only say for sure that its relatively high value in Greece is brought in the Middle Ages. The most obvious source being Slavs. It's tied to I2a1b as well and lower values seem to correlate with non-Slavic speaking populations (Greeks and Albanians) so it makes sense.

I asked a different thing and I don't even think that any R1a subclade is tied to 'I2a1b'.
You presented as fact an impression you may have for whatever reasons.

If Thracians had R1a-M558 (today we can find it in Slavic, Germanic, Uralic, Turkic groups and here too) they could have spread it before the 'migration period'.

[Laberia]

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf

"There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows (...)"

Someone talked here about Mani. There were churches in the coastal inhabited centers of Mani during the V-VI century. During the Slavic invasion, there was an interruption of Christianity in Mani. But the nationalistic mantra of the modern Greeks want to see Maniates as the descendants of the ancient Spartans. Yeah, lol.

[Laberia]

faggot, i have Hamilakis' book (btw Hamilakis disavows genetics completely).

Also, try this one. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=OEnd58DfwmIC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=enver+hoxha+archaeology&source=bl&ots=vhdQRB-iqo&sig=bkQUU_UZ0Z6MPHP9ZA2yPgoqrgg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf7rWO-onYAhUKWbwKHWmKD2oQ6AEINjAB#v=snippet&q=hoxha&f=false)

Where can i read that Albania under Enver Hoxha destroyed evidences?
And i want to repeat, try to behave like normal person.

[Danaan]

....

Μη πετάγεσαι βρωμιάρη. Δεν σε αφορά.

[Kouros]

faggot, i have Hamilakis' book (btw Hamilakis disavows genetics completely).

Also, try this one. (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=OEnd58DfwmIC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=enver+hoxha+archaeology&source=bl&ots=vhdQRB-iqo&sig=bkQUU_UZ0Z6MPHP9ZA2yPgoqrgg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf7rWO-onYAhUKWbwKHWmKD2oQ6AEINjAB#v=snippet&q=hoxha&f=false)

Enver Hoaxa urbanized a lot of Laberia's savage Indic ancestors. So please don't link stuff like that, it's a touchy subject for him.

[Tauromachos]

Someone talked here about Mani. There were churches in the coastal inhabited centers of Mani during the V-VI century. During the Slavic invasion, there was an interruption of Christianity in Mani. But the nationalistic mantra of the modern Greeks want to see Maniates as the descendants of the ancient Spartans. Yeah, lol.


Ok Idiot

Here is a native Maniot who recites a poem in the native Maniot dialect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoTuIqkK7Kw
Is there any Slav who can tell what he says?
I'm curios

[brennus dux gallorum]

Someone talked here about Mani. There were churches in the coastal inhabited centers of Mani during the V-VI century. During the Slavic invasion, there was an interruption of Christianity in Mani. But the nationalistic mantra of the modern Greeks want to see Maniates as the descendants of the ancient Spartans. Yeah, lol.

with only problem in your theory, being that ancient slavs didn't worship the 12 gods, like Maniates did until 10th century (see Constantinos Porphyrogenitos)

and yes, they obviously were not descendants of ancient Spartans, it was medieval Lacaedemonians who were descendants of ancient spartans

[Tauromachos]

with only problem in your theory, being that ancient slavs didn't worship the 12 gods, like Maniates did until 10th century (see Constantinos Porphyrogenitos)

and yes, they obviously were not descendants of ancient Spartans, it was medieval Lacaedemonians who were descendants of ancient spartans

Whatever they were they were Greeks.

Maniots speak their own Greek idiom which has alot phrases from Ancient Greek and Byzantine Greek.

It has nothing to do with Slavic as you can see in the video i posted.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Sure, we have several sources. Of course they are going be scant cuz Dark Ages tend to be low on sources. Any lack of sources only affirms the grip the Avaro-Slavs had on the territories of the former empire. Isidore of Seville mentions that Slavs took "All of Greece" from the Romans, The Miracles of St. Demetrius says the Slavs devastated even the Greek islands before laying siege to Thessaloniki (and that's 100 years after Michael of Syria mentions them at Corinth in 584). Willibald in 732 landed in Monemvasia in "the Land of Slavinia". These are direct evidences. Then there is the lack of coins and the general decline of urban life that characterizes the decrease in Roman population. The relative lack of fortifications in the Peloponnese (compared to Northern Greece and the Balkans) must have been real easy pickings for the Slavs on their march to the sea.
Worth mentioning that in isidore of Sevile,by "Graecia" in this case it means Balkan peninsula, not Greece, which was definetely slavicised and very early. On contrary, not even one of the sources you referred imply the "extinction" of Greeks at this time, let alone Peloponnese. Not even need to mention that Slavs who were assimilated later were a minority compare to early invaders, as the majority were deported and replaced by Greeks from South Italy and Anatolia, who, as the study shows, were a minority compare to the original inhabitants of Peloponnese.





Sure, the archeaological findings of the Slavophobic Greco-Frankish puppet state has almost certainly systematically avoided or destroyed any evidence of Slavic invasions. (same as what Albania had done under Enver Hoxha). Still, there are Slavic potteries found in Argos, Olympia and Corinth. (https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html). These ones (http://web.rgzm.de/en/exhibitions-events/news-details/article/the-slavs-in-the-peloponnese-new-evidence-from-rescue-excavations-in-arcadia.html) were found in my mother's village.

:picard2:
nothing has been destroyed, but they were simply very few compare to Greek archaeological findings of these years that it shows they never became majority in Peloponnese, let alone their massive deportation later from which very few survived and all of them had been assiilated in 15th century



The fact that it is such a minor dialect and that it was/is located along the far eastern mountains pushed against the sea should give you another clue just how epic the Slavic population movements were and how deeply they affected the demographics of our tiny little Peloponnese ( But Tsaknonian probably extended into Argolid before the 14th Century).

half of Tsakonanians left their language almost in 19th century, and adopted modern Greek. Prior to that, it was spoken in eastern arcadia as a whole (see agios petros etc), and much of argolis and Laconia.









I have found a quote showing Aromanian spoken in Peloponnese during Ottoman times.
There is no such quote. Apart from quotes associating Arvanites west of Patras with Vlachs (arvanitovlachs) and their toponyms, no referrence to pure Vlachs in peloponnese and technically Central greece as a whole has ever been done

In fact, the settling of all these tribal people deep in the Morea suggests an origin for the warlike tendencies of certain regions like Mani. We have even Vlachokerassia in Tegea, nearby and the word "Vlachi" didn't enter standard Greek on accident, I think. But I am prepared to be corrected on this one.

The vast majority of the word "vlach" usage in Greece (and totally in peloponnese) refers to peasants and sepherds, not to Aromanian speakers

[Wrong]

From my understanding, Greece has more R1a than Albanian but Albania has more I2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's not all too likely. Toskeria and North Greece are similar when it comes to R1a and I2, but not the same.

[Fustan]

That's not all too likely. Toskeria and North Greece are similar when it comes to R1a and I2, but not the same.

Confusing but correct answer you gave.

[Wrong]

Confusing but correct answer you gave.
As always, J2b2broder. What simply matters is that I am right.

[Tauromachos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv3BZs_vmh0

[Scholarios]

I asked a different thing and I don't even think that any R1a subclade is tied to 'I2a1b'.
You presented as fact an impression you may have for whatever reasons.

If Thracians had R1a-M558 (today we can find it in Slavic, Germanic, Uralic, Turkic groups and here too) they could have spread it before the 'migration period'.

Thracians didn't have it though. So far there is not a single clue that Thracians had it and every possible clue that it was brought to Balkans by Slavs. (age, distribution, paired with I2a1b, linguistic correlation. Thracians and Illyrians have so far yielded none of these clades. But you'll insist of course. "Woulda, coulda, shoulda" doesn't cut it here. You see how this just sounds like dumb slavophobia? "

[Tauromachos]

Very simple

Ancient
http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Sappho.jpghttp://www.archaeology.wiki/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Women_vase.jpg


Modern
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Aliki.jpg/220px-Aliki.jpghttps://scottnevinssuicide.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/ceb1cebbceafcebaceb7-ceb4ceb9cf80cebbceb1cf81ceaccebacebfcf85-miss-europe-aliki-diplarakou-1931.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/2b/7d/8b2b7d7ad2471f6857bffd45a1dee535.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Slavs

http://i.imgur.com/RKKOcQI.jpghttps://media.bobruisk.ru/imagecache/photo/photos/2015/09/30/dsc_1508.jpghttps://scdailymakeover.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/milla-jovovich.jpghttp://www.millaj.com/pics/twitter-07231601.jpg

[Scholarios]

Worth mentioning that in isidore of Sevile,by "Graecia" in this case it means Balkan peninsula, not Greece, which was definetely slavicised and very early. On contrary, not even one of the sources you referred imply the "extinction" of Greeks at this time, let alone Peloponnese. Not even need to mention that Slavs who were assimilated later were a minority compare to early invaders, as the majority were deported and replaced by Greeks from South Italy and Anatolia, who, as the study shows, were a minority compare to the original inhabitants of Peloponnese.

Yes, you want it to mean all of the Balkans. But it's not clear. Anyways, we have Slavs in Morea in 6th century roaming uncontrolled, and still in the 9th century roaming uncontrolled. You can make up whatever twists and turns and maybes to obfuscate the issue, but if we take all the evidence here- toponyms, monemvasia in the "slavinia", current ydna distribution, etc then it is obvious to anyone who hasn't had their mind made up already. I know, I used to have a similar way of thinking. (the extreme example of such thought process and doublethink is Laberia- who cannot even begin to fathom that his own national epic isn't the word of god himself. Btw-- I didn't say Greeks went extinct in Peloponnese.













]half of Tsakonanians left their language almost in 19th century, and adopted modern Greek. Prior to that, it was spoken in eastern arcadia as a whole (see agios petros etc), and much of argolis and Laconia.


Tsakonians were small even at the time of the Greek revolution. They had been dispersed from various other regions and settled by Byzantines and Ottomans as far as the Sea of Marmara.









There is no such quote. Apart from quotes associating Arvanites west of Patras with Vlachs (arvanitovlachs) and their toponyms, no referrence to pure Vlachs in peloponnese and technically Central greece as a whole has ever been done



There were Vlach speakers from the south of Karditsa to the west, Agrafa mountains and Eurytania province who lost their language in the 19th and 20th centuries.36 In Peloponese, where Vlachs had emigrated from northern points, the Vlachs also were assimilated in the local population. (Sometimes Vlach place names remind us of the earlier language.)

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl26_1.htm


The vast majority of the word "vlach" usage in Greece (and totally in peloponnese) refers to peasants and sepherds, not to Aromanian speakers

"Vlach" means "outsider" in Slavic and Germanic languages. It came to mean shepherd because these Aromanians were usually shepherds living on outskirts of Greek and Slavic towns. It is true, it can have several meanings depending on context. However, it also true that there were Vlachs in Morea at various times, as shown above.



Slavs

http://i.imgur.com/RKKOcQI.jpghttps://media.bobruisk.ru/imagecache/photo/photos/2015/09/30/dsc_1508.jpg


Come on, this is Hellenas-level shit.

[Tauromachos]

Ok any Greek should watch this video it talks about people such as Scolarios and what they do

If the moron Solarios had to face Professor Triandafilidis Tete a Tete he would be torn into pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8zc-NmzMBs

[Tauromachos]

Some more ancient and modern Greeks

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/ancient-greek-bust-10807675.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eoX8n_nA2Qk/Vw_gVJCAtKI/AAAAAAAAgq4/-12aNI7RPeEopy18nfr67YbhuEtw1hXfACLcB/s1600/Heracles%2BHercules%2BGreek%2Bmythology%2BCarlo%2B Albacini.jpghttps://i.ytimg.com/vi/MofEAPzUVAM/maxresdefault.jpg
http://www.altcine.com/personsphoto/photo/PsarantonisProfile.jpg

[Laberia]

Some more ancient and modern Greeks

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/ancient-greek-bust-10807675.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eoX8n_nA2Qk/Vw_gVJCAtKI/AAAAAAAAgq4/-12aNI7RPeEopy18nfr67YbhuEtw1hXfACLcB/s1600/Heracles%2BHercules%2BGreek%2Bmythology%2BCarlo%2B Albacini.jpghttps://i.ytimg.com/vi/MofEAPzUVAM/maxresdefault.jpg
http://www.altcine.com/personsphoto/photo/PsarantonisProfile.jpg

With a special dedication for the two biggest idiots of this forum, Cyberfaggot and Keraunos and their basement rats COCKSUCKERS.


The Greeks...

Travelers in Various Countries of Europe, Asia and Africa, 6 vols. (1810— 23), Vol. 4, 321.

Edward Daniel Clarke repeated the claim that the Albanians were more attractive and purer than the Greeks:

"The Greeks are, for the most part, indolent and profligate, vain, obsequious, poor and dirty. The Albanians are industrious, independent, honourable and hospitable. They are a hardier and healthier race".

http://i68.tinypic.com/15i7z8k.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/20sg8w.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Greeks
https://ka-perseus-images.s3.amazonaws.com/bdff5acfd66e46676e6d815c3d2f54ab2763d309.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/c1/1b/87c11b9266eff7c37f0c63ce8e284d47.jpghttp://linkgreece.com/culture/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/greek-art1.jpghttp://www.crystalinks.com/gkdiscus.gifhttp://ancientolympics.arts.kuleuven.be/picEN/slides/P0012.jpg


Abanians
http://i.imgur.com/4497P.jpghttp://www.albanianphotography.net/coon/coon_files/vlb_images1/csc024.jpghttps://farm7.static.flickr.com/6217/6232805011_fd711a3a7e_b.jpg

[Tauromachos]

More Greeks
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/11/26711-004-A3932A7A.jpghttps://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/0f396e8a55728e79b48334e699243c07/0/2/024_2.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/8d/ec/3f8dec8eb3d323fbb01bd2fa23470d55.jpghttp://www.hellenic-art.com/images/detailed/5/f110x.jpghttps://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/750/1206.jpg?v=1485680415https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/I/m/Akhilleus_Aias_MGEt_16757.jpghttp://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN00097/AN00097950_001_l.jpg

[Tauromachos]

http://images.slideplayer.com/14/4201166/slides/slide_10.jpghttp://www.theoi.com/image/M19.1Nemeian.jpghttps://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/vase-animation-greek-hoplites-war_1.jpghttp://www.theoi.com/image/M19.6Nemeian.jpghttp://www.theoi.com/image/M19.2Nemeian.jpghttps://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/51987/51987,1285205026,7/stock-photo-statue-of-hercules-61528660.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/55/23/f05523dbfe1bb83ac99f28cb3e5f525a--gear-tattoo-bisexual.jpg

[Tauromachos]

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/Ancient-Greek-Vase-Artists.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Greek Arcitecture
https://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/384.jpg?v=1485681384http://cdn.history.com/sites/2/2014/01/parthenon-athens-P.jpeghttps://www.heritagedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Model_temple_of_Aphaia_Glyptothek_Munich.jpghttps://list25.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Slide2519.jpghttps://us.123rf.com/450wm/dimitriosp/dimitriosp1404/dimitriosp140400113/27896231-caryatid-ancient-statue-erechteion-temple-athens-greece.jpg?ver=6http://bibleoutlines.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ephesus-theatre-2.jpghttps://www.juergen-reichmann.de/images/pics/006000/006749.jpg

[Peterski]

But you do realize that all of this ancient Greek art is just showing "Hellenwood celebrities" and not normal peasants?

[Tauromachos]

http://greece10best.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Greek-Flag.jpghttp://www.greekboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/186102612.jpg

[catgeorge]

Italian, Austrian, French, Greek or Russian?

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14355743_1223974927654475_3470828029773377212_n.jp g?oh=756edbbd4ba7f044f409acae0140711c&oe=5ABAAD4B

[Tauromachos]

http://irakliokungfu.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Greek-flag.jpg

[Tauromachos]

https://fthmb.tqn.com/q7ng-2Uqn0OpjJMGPQadQ0eekEg=/960x0/filters:no_upscale()/103340758-56a3b15a5f9b58b7d0d3339c.jpg

[catgeorge]

Italian, Austrian, French, Greek or Russian?

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18527285_10211481165437683_4637777770989539496_o.j pg?oh=f1756b86551d42fac0ce7a93c22eabe3&oe=5AC78276

[Tauromachos]

http://www.discovergreece.com/~/media/images/events/promo/1800x1200_4shutterstock_60064684.ashx

[catgeorge]

Italian, Austrian, French, Greek or Russian?

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22154430_349160862208785_9157509154178054431_n.jpg ?oh=2177489bc01e51ac006fb2d5a521df5a&oe=5ABC6679

[Peterski]

Cybernautic and catgeorge are just having autistic meltdowns. ;)

[Tauromachos]

This is Greece
https://i0.wp.com/www.pappaspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/oct.jpg?resize=1170%2C780
http://en.protothema.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/n1.jpghttps://d3dqioy2sca31t.cloudfront.net/Projects/cms/production/000/021/875/large/bd534b21ac5071c033e5ea7fd52f06aa/greece-hydra-harbor-042017-rs.jpg

[catgeorge]

Cybernautic and catgeorge are just having autistic meltdowns. ;)

As far as I am aware the only autist here is you.

[Kouros]

Since the puppy wants to play games



The Tosks

The Tosks [Toskas], whose country consists of Mallakastra [Malacastra], Berat, Myzeqeja [Mosakia], Përmet, Tepelena, Gjirokastra and Këlcyra, occupy central Albania and live to the south of the Ghegs. The Albanians call this country Toskeria [Toscari]. It is inhabited by the nastiest and most perfidious of the Albanians. They are less brave and more boastful. Their tribe is the most numerous and it occupies as much territory as that of the Ghegs, but they are of lesser quality in everything. They are inferior to the Ghegs in terms of morals, physical force and civilisation.

The Christian Tosks who are almost equal in number to the Muslims, are followers of the Greek Church and are known as Schismatics. They are similar to their Greek co-believers in fanaticism and ridiculous superstition, but their morals are no better for all. Indeed, they are the nastiest and most villainous inhabitants of the whole planet. They most certainly surpass their Muslim compatriots in infamy and turpitude. Anyone like me who has taken time to observe them, will come to the conclusion that their religion serves no purpose whatsoever other than to spread hatred of all those who do not share their beliefs

^ That last highlight is for you my little dog. Please sit.


and to forbid them from eating meat on Wednesdays and Fridays, and on their long and numerous fasting days. Aside from this, they have no virtues at all, and no qualities that could compensate for all the failings and vices in their hideous character.

It's funny how well this quote applies to our new pet.

[Laberia]

Since the puppy wants to play games



^ That last highlight is for you my little dog. Please sit.



It's funny how well this quote applies to our new pet.

Listen you asiatic scum. What you posted again here is the same trash of Ibrahim Manzouri, posted first by this degenerated troll Fustan. Ibrahim Manzouri was a French converted in Islam who worked for some time for Ali Pasha of Tepelena. It's evident that he had bad relations with Tosks and Labs and this is the reason of his hate. It's very easy to debunk this crap. There is a single word in this shit that makes all the text non credible. Which word is? You have to ask the basement rats, because i am not going to tell you. I am an Albanian proud of my origin as Lab and i am not going to spit on my people, not important from which region they are, i am not the degenerate basement rat. Or you can ask even Scholarios. So, what are you posting here from some days is a BS. There are plenty of Western travelers who have described perfectly the Southern Albanians. And i want to quote you an famous, Lord Byron:
1809 - 1810
Lord Byron:
Letters on Albania

Prevesa, November 12, 1809
My dear Mother,
He(Ali Pasha) called my Albanian soldier who attends me, and told him to protect me at all hazards. His name is Viscillie and like all the Albanians, he is brave, rigidly honest, and faithful, but they are cruel though not treacherous, and have several vices, but no meannesses. They are perhaps the most beautiful race in point of countenance in the world,...

Source:
[from: Lord Byron, Selected letters and journals in one volume, from the unexpurgated twelve volume edition. Edited by Leslie A. Marchand (London, John Murray 1982), p. 29-34, 41-42.]
This is the description of Southern Albanians, Tosk, Lab, etc, made by a person, considered in your country a National Heroe, who gave his life for the liberation of your country and not by an mentally ill individual, full of hate like Manzouri who closed his fucking life committing suicide. And i can quote you countless of authors.
Now, listen to me you scum of Anadoll or barbatchios, because this was how the Albanian heroes of your revolution called the degraded rayah without ethnic identity who later were converted in Greeks, yeah, pure descendants of Plato, lol. Listen to me you inferiore creature. I was from months out of greek subforum, until one day, you cockroach and this turko-cypriot gypsy started to post in this forum and every continued to attack me. I was having some fun with an interesting idiot like Novi Pazar and his slavo-vlach puppy epirot. But you retards and this effeminate clown, who for unknown reasons to me has decided to consider himself as the chief of the Greeks here, used every means to make me return and to post in your subforum. For example, this thread was started because Cyberfaggot asked me. There are different threads about this fake study, you can not find in those threads not a single post of mine. Later, your team was joined by the basement rats, three degenerate individuals who pretend to be Albanians, but could not write a single sentence in Albanian.
Now, the problem is that you are playing with the wrong guy. I have some modest knowledge on history but i don't want to mock others.
What is going to happen? You have two options gypsy.
Trying to play the funny guy and taking a seat to watch the movie, here you have the trailer:

2. The Greek type — The women of Athens — Beauty of the men — Sobriety of
the whole people — Effects of wine in hot countries.

The beauty of the Greek race is so celebrated, and travellers
so fully expect to find in Greece the family of the Venus of
Milos, that they think they have been taken in when they
arrive at Athens.

The Athenian women are neither beautiful nor well made ;
they have neither the lively physiognomy of Frenchwomen,
nor the full rich beauty of the Roman dames, nor the pale,
white delicacy of the Turkish women — one sees nothing in the
town but ugly creatures with broad noses, flat feet, and ill-
formed waists. It is because Athens, twenty- five years ago,
was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed, and
still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica ; and
within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found
where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly
peopled with men of all kinds and nations ; that explains the
ugliness of the Athenian type. Beautiful Greek women, and
these are rare, are only to be met with in certain privileged
islands, or in some nooks of the mountains where intruders
have not penetrated.

Sourrce:
Edmond About
"Greece and the Greeks of the present day;"
Since you are an dumbass, let me explain. The capital of your country, Athens was basically an Albanian city, the Athens of ancient greeks and also the villages of Attika were inhabitated mostly from Albanians.
Later, your governments gathered every kind of shit around the world and this is the reason why you are ugly and deformed.
Do you liked the trailer?
The second option is that you like obedient bitch, will shut your shit mouth and the movie will be postponed.
What do you think, turd? This the best that a Lab can offer.

[Scholarios]

Laviria, with all your postings you simply entrench the stereotype of the toxic bumbling Lab degenerate. I suggest you mute yourself or risk further ridicule to your tribe.

[Laberia]

Laviria, with all your postings you simply entrench the stereotype of the toxic bumbling Lab degenerate. I suggest you mute yourself or risk further ridicule to your tribe.

Scholarios, nobody is offending you. What is your problem now?

[Kouros]

...

Everyday this rabid dog strengthens my love for Ghegs...

But I will say that I am vocal on my hatred for Athens and it's filth. Here is a great example of the negroids that live there:


Eleni Foureira was born as Entela Fureraj on 7 March 1987 in Fier, Albania to Marjeta and Kristaq Fureraj. She has three siblings (Ioanna, Margarita & Giorgos). Before her singing career, Foureira was interested in fashion design, as she was heavily influenced by her mother working in the profession. She was raised in the Kallithea region of Athens, Greece.

https://i.imgur.com/y9AJt6E.jpg


I agree with Scholarios, I think you should shut your Islamic ass up and get back to your prayers before you embarrass other Albanians on here any further. That or you should hit the books because the OP is cramp-inducing comedy.

[Lavrentis]

Yes, you want it to mean all of the Balkans. But it's not clear.

If it's not clear then why do you pretend that the chronicle talks about Greece and not Balkans? It's more possible that it's talking about the Balkans.


Anyways, we have Slavs in Morea in 6th century roaming uncontrolled, and still in the 9th century roaming uncontrolled.

And we also have the sources that say that the Byzantines eventually killed all the Slavs who invaded Peloponnese.


You can make up whatever twists and turns and maybes to obfuscate the issue, but if we take all the evidence here- toponyms, monemvasia in the "slavinia", current ydna distribution

You are the one making twists and turns here. Your theories have been proven wrong by professional studies and the only thing you can do is talk without evidence. Also, what current Y-DNA distribution? Slavic Y-DNA is very small to talk about a population change. It was probably brought by the Hellenized Slavs who settled Peloponnese after Byzantine invitation, after the Byzantines drove out the other Slavs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Danaan]

Thracians didn't have it though. So far there is not a single clue that Thracians had it and every possible clue that it was brought to Balkans by Slavs. (age, distribution, paired with I2a1b, linguistic correlation. Thracians and Illyrians have so far yielded none of these clades. But you'll insist of course. "Woulda, coulda, shoulda" doesn't cut it here. You see how this just sounds like dumb slavophobia? "

I don't think so.

Illyrians are irrelevant. I didn't mention them.

'Thracians' (some groups of them) could have had it. We don't have any Iron Age samples. If 'Thracians' had it Macedonians could have acquired it etc

I have an agnostic stance. I'm not the one who insists.

That it is brought to Balkans by Slavs (exclusively or predominately) or that it is "paired" with "I2a1b" is your impression. If you present it as an argument I can explain why the argument is wrong.

By the way, the TMRCA of R-CTS1211* which is the subclade I mentioned which can be found in Slavic, Turkic, Uralic, Germanic groups, in Greece and even in Cyprus in low frequency (up to 4% in Paphos) is 4400 ybp

[Bosniensis]

I don't think so.

Illyrians are irrelevant. I didn't mention them.

'Thracians' (some groups of them) could have had it. We don't have any Iron Age samples. If 'Thracians' had it Macedonians could have acquired it etc

I have an agnostic stance. I'm not the one who insists.

That it is brought to Balkans by Slavs (exclusively or predominately) or that it is "paired" with "I2a1b" is your impression. If you present it as an argument I can explain why the argument is wrong.

By the way, the TMRCA of R-CTS1211* which is the subclade I mentioned which can be found in Slavic, Turkic, Uralic, Germanic groups, in Greece and even in Cyprus in low frequency (up to 4% in Paphos) is 4400 ybp

Thracians spoke Slavic language, our language is nowadays used by Russians and Ukrainians. Thracian emerged in Bulgaria and Serbia only non-Romanized populace preserved it till this day as true Thracian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tauromachos]

http://www.proinos-typos.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ellhniki-shmaia.jpg
https://masternews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/405b9ed4.jpghttps://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AWsjn3TtLsQ/WNZLfEAGCsI/AAAAAAAA5YE/6mXs9WExubg4D79zMdrUdOoS3bb2XeaNgCLcB/s1600/simaia.jpg


Τα χρωματα της Πατριδας μου

Πισο αχαριστοι Βαρβαροι

[brennus dux gallorum]

One thing that I recognize from laberia's posts, is that the way tosks perceive the world is stuck in 19th century :D

[Scholarios]

I don't think so.

Illyrians are irrelevant. I didn't mention them.

'Thracians' (some groups of them) could have had it. We don't have any Iron Age samples. If 'Thracians' had it Macedonians could have acquired it etc

I have an agnostic stance. I'm not the one who insists.

That it is brought to Balkans by Slavs (exclusively or predominately) or that it is "paired" with "I2a1b" is your impression. If you present it as an argument I can explain why the argument is wrong.

By the way, the TMRCA of R-CTS1211* which is the subclade I mentioned which can be found in Slavic, Turkic, Uralic, Germanic groups, in Greece and even in Cyprus in low frequency (up to 4% in Paphos) is 4400 ybp

You aren't agnostic, or you'd put 2+2 together. I mean, I guess you are trying to somehow grasp on to R-CTS1211* being some non-Slavic clade? at 4% in Paphos alone? huh? And anyways, I2a1b *is* obviously Slavic in origin, so I see why you see it's not relevant. And Illyrians are Iron Age people so you *should* care about whether they are R1a1 or not. This is just a "god of the gaps" argument youre engaging in. Every year the evidence grows that the Greek population has been significantly affected by the migrations from the north post-antiquity and every year someone tries to grasp further on the 2% R1a1 in Western Sicily or a single village in Cyprus that has high I2a1 or R1a (historical founder effect).

[Voskos]

So did the author resign or not yet after reading this thread?

[Danaan]

You aren't agnostic, or you'd put 2+2 together. I mean, I guess you are trying to somehow grasp on to R-CTS1211* being some non-Slavic clade? at 4% in Paphos alone? huh? And anyways, I2a1b *is* obviously Slavic in origin, so I see why you see it's not relevant. And Illyrians are Iron Age people so you *should* care about whether they are R1a1 or not. This is just a "god of the gaps" argument youre engaging in. Every year the evidence grows that the Greek population has been significantly affected by the migrations from the north post-antiquity and every year someone tries to grasp further on the 2% R1a1 in Western Sicily or a single village in Cyprus that has high I2a1 or R1a (historical founder effect).

Εγώ είχα προβλέψει το J2a στους Μυκηναίους και αμφιβάλλω για την πρωτο-ελληνικότητα των περισσότερων απλοομάδων που κάποιοι έχουν συνδέσει με τους 'πρωτο-Ελληνες' (δηλ. και τα R1b-Z2103, E-V13 κτλ δεν μου φαίνονται πρωτο-ελληνικά αλλά περιμένω να δω, εσύ πιστεύεις ότι ήρθε το J2a από τις στέππες παρεμπιμπτόντως ή είκαζεις ότι υπάρχει και κάτι άλλο που δεν βρέθηκε στα συγκεκριμένα δείγματα; )

Επίσης σε σχέση με τις προσμίξεις με μη ελληνικούς πληθυσμούς μετά την κλασσική εποχή έλεγα ότι δεν μπορούν να ποσοτικοποιηθούν (και τώρα ακόμα δεν έχουμε aDNA Ελλήνων της κλασσικής εποχής) αλλά κι εγώ θεωρούσα ότι οι μετακινήσεις από το βορά πρέπει να είχαν μεγαλύτερη επίδραση, τουλάχιστον συγκριτικά με άλλες μετακινήσεις (κυρίως εκ Δύσεως και εξ Ανατολών).

Και πάλι όμως, αυτά που έχεις γράψει είναι πίπες. Αν προσπαθήσεις να τα παρουσιάσεις ως λογικά επιχειρήματα θα το καταλάβεις. Τι ακριβώς είναι 'paired' με τι, πρώτα απ' όλα; Σου είπα ότι αυτή είναι μια εντύπωση που έχεις, όχι γεγονός.

[Wrong]

There are many good Greeks on TA, but Laberia single-handedly destroyed our Albanian reputation with them.

Is it possible to reverse the so-called damage caused by this basibozuk for nearly three years???

[Laberia]

There are many good Greeks on TA, but Laberia single-handedly destroyed our Albanian reputation with them.

Is it possible to reverse the so-called damage caused by this basibozuk for nearly three years???

Stop talking about Albanians and our reputation you disgusting creature. Stop talking exactly because you can not speak in Albanian first of all and you are not an Albanian. Continue your fucking life in your shit hole, in your basement.

[Lavrentis]

Every year the evidence grows that the Greek population has been significantly affected by the migrations from the north post-antiquity

Can you post this evidence?

[Wrong]

But even, bad as it is, it fosters many fine qualities in the Albanians, which are brought out by their adventurous life. For instance, they possess great presence of mind when exposed to danger, and in general they know not of the existence of such a feeling as the fear of death. They are strong and fine-looking men, with the exception of the Liapi tribe, and bear in their gait and carriage a consciousness of physical power and determined courage.

[Wrong]

Labradog back the hell down

The Geg roar is coming

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1937_Schulz/AH1937_Schulz01_700.jpg

[Wrong]

Stop talking about Albanians and our reputation you disgusting creature. Stop talking exactly because you can not speak in Albanian first of all and you are not an Albanian. Continue your fucking life in your shit hole, in your basement.
Did you take a DNA test yet?

[Fustan]

Did you take a DNA test yet?

Nope! He is pussy!

[Kouros]

There are many good Greeks on TA, but Laberia single-handedly destroyed our Albanian reputation with them.

Is it possible to reverse the so-called damage caused by this basibozuk for nearly three years???


Ali was born in Tepelena or in the adjacent village of Beçisht. 1744, His father, Veli bey, was a local ruler of Tepelena. According to George Bowen, Ali Pasha was part of the Lab tribe; as this tribe was in disrepute among the other Albanians for their poverty and predatory habits, he thought it proper to call himself after Tepelena, a town of the Tosks; no one dared to dispute this until after his death.

It doesn't stop there, Labs also hate themselves. We've come full circle.

[Laberia]

It doesn't stop there, Labs also hate themselves. We've come full circle.

No asiatic scumbag. What you have posted here is a copy paste from Wikipidhi. It's how your compatriots falsify our history. It's interesting to be note that after reading your informative discussion in Greek here in this forum, i learned that there is a process of Anatolisation of Wiki. This means that the authors of many pages of Wiki, are the descendants of prosfiges, a Christian Turkish population arrived in Greece during the exchange of population between Turkey and Greece. Well, this prosfig net-warriors are faking the history of Greece, trying to paint their Turkish ancestors as the real Greeks and as the real heroes, and of course that of Albania and Albanians, it's an obsession for you.
Anyway, you ignored my warnings. This is bad....

[Kouros]

https://i.imgur.com/t9EB2qO.jpg

[Tauromachos]

https://www.juniorsclub.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/elas.lyste__blogspot.gr_..jpghttp://www.tilestwra.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/3fb9ef619a57842149804235b369659a.jpghttps://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/parthenon-temple-greek-flag-athenian-acropolis-greece-famous-52156274.jpghttp://www.travelstyle.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/%CE%B5%CE%BB-1-800x600.jpg

[brennus dux gallorum]

No asiatic scumbag. What you have posted here is a copy paste from Wikipidhi. It's how your compatriots falsify our history. It's interesting to be note that after reading your informative discussion in Greek here in this forum, i learned that there is a process of Anatolisation of Wiki. This means that the authors of many pages of Wiki, are the descendants of prosfiges, a Christian Turkish population arrived in Greece during the exchange of population between Turkey and Greece. Well, this prosfig net-warriors are faking the history of Greece, trying to paint their Turkish ancestors as the real Greeks and as the real heroes, and of course that of Albania and Albanians, it's an obsession for you.
Anyway, you ignored my warnings. This is bad....

If by "Christian turks" you mean karamanlides, they represent a minority, and I don't think they even care to post anything in wiki. but if you mean the original anatolian Greeks, I doubt if they are from any aspect more Turkish than you and the rest of labs will always be

[Laberia]

Cybernautic and catgeorge are just having autistic meltdowns. ;)

The greek cowards sockpuppets of Apricity. Exactly, what we will illustrate today is the cowardness of the greeks:

TRANSLATOR'S PREFACE.
M. Abottt's book caused some sensation at Athens, but no answer to it appeared.
" In the first place, they (the Greeks) are not brave, as
was thought from 1821 to 1830. The good faith of Europe
has been deceived. Missolonghi is an additional myth in that
country, fertile in mythology. Their ancestors were not brave
either ; they were cowards who conquered Xerxes at Salamis.
About, p. 43. Their religion is a dead letter ;
it prescribes no virtues, but only grimaces ; it prostrates the
body to the earth without raising the soul to heaven — ^this
religion, daughter of the lower empire, partakes of Byzantine
imbecility,' p. 197. People with such a religion, can they
be honest ? * The most honest people in Athens would be
people of doubtfiil reputation in France or England,' p. 49.
In short, the Greeks are cowards, thieves, a people of bad
faith. ' Id every country' — it is always the hunchback
Triboulet that is speaking — * the name of Oreek is used for
a sharper. I am obliged to own that they are no better than
their reputation,' p. 48. Do you want any proofs ? I am
ready to give them.
Does Greek patriotism go the length of exposing itself to
musket-balls ? this is a question I have often discussed with
the Philhellenes. Europe believed at one time that all the
Greeks were heroes ; I have heard some old soldiers afirms
that they were all cowards.
It was not the Greek fleet that attacked Xerxes at
Salamis ; it was one man, it was Themistocles. The Greeks
wanted not to fight ; and Herodotus relates, that a voice was
heard in the air which exclaimed, " Cowards when will you
cease to retreat ?"

The Greek nation is not bom to make war, whatever it
may say. Had it as much courage as it pretends to, disci-
pline, which is the principal strength of war, will always be
wanting. The Greeks assert they are not fit for agriculture,
and I am much afraid they are right ; agriculture requires
more patience, more perseverance, and a more stable mind
than the Hellenes have ever had for their share.

And talking about cowardness, this maybe will interest tou you:

At the time of my arrival in Greece (February 1852), there
were at Athens twenty-five or thirty Poles, who, after having
fought in Italy, fbund in this spare country a still scantier hos-
pitality....

They laboured at
a loss, and M. N6gris, in two years, spent there about thirty
thousand francs ; however, they gained a living. The people
of Athens, who cannot understand the doing good without
profit, accused M. Negris of conspiring against the peace of
Europe, with this handful of fever-stricken old men. The
Poles were ill-treated pretty regularly ; * two or three were
assassinated. A Greek officer insulted a Pole on the road to
Pirseus ; the Pole called him to account ; the Greek refused
to fight, saying he did not know with whom he had to do.
" Sir," answered the Pole, " I am an officer as well as your-
self ; and more than you, for I have already fought, and am
ready to fight again." The Greek had the courage to hold
good and not to fight. Notwithstanding this shameful treat-
ment, these poor people tried to make themselves useful. A
fire happened at Athens, the Greeks run there, according to
their custom, to see a fire and make a noise. The Poles ex-
posed their lives there. A short time after, thej were driven
out of Athens — they gave umbrage to Bussia. They were
dragged from their houses with a brutality which added to
the odiousness of this act. They were put on board without
having been able to put their affairs in order, and they set
out for America without any money.
I think is enough for today.

Source:
"Greece and the Greeks of the present day;" Edmond About. (https://archive.org/stream/greeceandgreeks01abougoog/greeceandgreeks01abougoog_djvu.txt)

[Tauromachos]

Στους Ελληνες
Ας παμε να δουμε τη εχει να πει ο ιδιος ο
γενιτιστης για την εργασια του δεν χρειασεται να ακουμε της μαλακιες του καθε αρχιδη εδω μεσα

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AygcAfT_WXE

[brennus dux gallorum]

The greek cowards sockpuppets of Apricity. Exactly, what we will illustrate today is the cowardness of the greeks:


"we used to say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say heroes fight like Greeks"
Winston Churchill

And seriously man, you are consumed in hating Greece, which normal person could even care about one officer who insulted another officer some centuries ago, so to even know such a source, you need psychotherapy or just find a girlfriend :D

[safrax]

The greek cowards sockpuppets of Apricity. Exactly, what we will illustrate today is the cowardness of the greeks:

And talking about cowardness, this maybe will interest tou you:
I think is enough for today.

Source:
"Greece and the Greeks of the present day;" Edmond About. (https://archive.org/stream/greeceandgreeks01abougoog/greeceandgreeks01abougoog_djvu.txt)
Greeks are nice people and no cowards. They are brothers, whereas muslims aren't.

[arkas]

Funny motive behind the study but the charts are interesting nevertheless.

https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/images/ejhg201718f1.jpg
https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/images/ejhg201718f2.jpg
https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/images/ejhg201718f3.jpg
https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/images/ejhg201718f4.jpg