I2a1b2

[Light]

I2a1b2

What do you know about this haplogroup? I am interested especially in the origin of this YDNA. Thanks!

EDIT: If you are going to comment on this thread please bring some solid arguments, some evidence for your opinions. ;)

[Kelmendasi]

It is also known as I2-L621 or I2a-Din. It's Slavic in origin and has a Slavic expansion. It has been found in samples from Poland and Russia whilst it's ancestral clade has been found in Mesolithic SHG samples from Sweden(Motala) suggesting distant origin from Scandinavia or northern Europe and had migrated to eastern Europe where it then got absorbed into the Slavic ethnogenesis from some clades. The subclades of I2a1b2 in Romania are mostly the Slavic clades iirc which have origin in eastern Europe, probably from around Ukraine as it has the highest diversity there.

[Kelmendasi]

"I2-L621 lineages could have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Proto-Indo-European society somewhere around Ukraine, Poland or Belarus, then as the centuries and millennia passed, would have blended with the predominantly R1a populations around them. The resulting amalgam would have become the ancestors of the Proto-Slavs.

Nowadays, I2a1 is five to ten times more common than G2a in Southeast Europe, while during the Neolithic period G2a was approximately four times more common. What can explain this complete reversal? At one point in history, I2a1 lineages seem to have benefited from being on the winning side. Apart from a minor boost from (hypothetically) joining Yamna's westward expansion to Europe, the principal determining event that allowed I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE. Most modern Eastern Europeans belonging to I2a1b fit into the L147.2 (aka CTS10228, CTS2180 or Y3111) subclade, which is thought to have arisen 5,600 years ago (just before the Yamna period and the Trypillian expansion into the steppe), but has a TMRCA of only 2,300 years according to Yfull. The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic. The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a population. This I2-L147.2 ancestor would have such an impact on the burgeoning Early Slavic population, still small 2,300 years ago, but booming.."

[Marduk]

I2a1b2

What do you know about this haplogroup? I am interested especially in the origin of this YDNA. Thanks!

That haplogroup originated in modern Ukraine or Belarus and came to the Balkans with Slavs in VII century.

[Light]

It is also known as I2-L621 or I2a-Din. It's Slavic in origin and has a Slavic expansion. It has been found in samples from Poland and Russia whilst it's ancestral clade has been found in Mesolithic SHG samples from Sweden(Motala) suggesting distant origin from Scandinavia or northern Europe and had migrated to eastern Europe where it then got absorbed into the Slavic ethnogenesis from some clades. The subclades of I2a1b2 in Romania are mostly the Slavic clades iirc which have origin in eastern Europe, probably from around Ukraine as it has the highest diversity there.

Interesting. I am more interested in finding valid arguments for the haplogroup being of germanic origin. I know that there are people who believe that and I am curious. How in the world could it be germanic? It could be true though..

[Light]

That haplogroup originated in modern Ukraine or Belarus and came to the Balkans with Slavs in VII century.

Source? Evidence?

[Kelmendasi]

Interesting. I am more interested in finding valid arguments for the haplogroup being of germanic origin. I know that there are people who believe that and I am curious. How in the world could it be germanic? It could be true though..
There is a chance of it having been brought to eastern Europeans by proto-Germanic tribes as it's ancestors did originate somewhere around Scandinavia/northern Europe, today though there aren't any Germanic subclades afaik

[Marduk]

Source? Evidence?

Read this www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=31401

[Light]

bump

[Light]

Loschbour, Luxembourg 6210-5990 calBCE - L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, M438+, L68+, P38+, M170+, M359.2-, L161.1-, L621- reported as I2a1b*

Sweden, Motala 3 (5898-5531 BC) - M423+, L68+, M258+, U179+, L181-, L417- I2a1b*

Sweden, Motala 12 - 5898-5531 calBC - L147.2+ [*insufficient on its own to designate a downstream subclade], L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-

Norway, Måløya, Steigen - 5950-5764 cal BP - I2a1b

https://image.ibb.co/i951FG/I2a_L621_a.png

[Light]

It is weird. I still think it has to be of balkanic origin.

[Kelmendasi]

It is weird. I still think it has to be of balkanic origin.
Evidence suggests otherwise.

[Light]

Evidence suggests otherwise.

Well it seems to be that way.

Have you seen my previous post? I brought some "evidence" for the pre-germanic, pre-celtic theory. ;)

I guess we can find the gedmatch kit numbers for those samples. I saw one and it was half baltic half scandinavian.

[Kelmendasi]

Well it seems to be that way.

Have you seen my previous post? I brought some "evidence" for the pre-germanic, pre-celtic theory. ;)

I guess we can find the gedmatch kit numbers for those samples. I saw one and it was half baltic half scandinavian.
Well yh an origin were Germanics would eventually inhabit is possible, but a Balkan origin isn’t going by aDNA and diversity

[JQP4545]

It is weird. I still think it has to be of balkanic origin.

Have you seen the Gedmatch results for the ancient Cretan_Armenoi sample? It gets a great deal of Eastern European DNA on the Dodecad calculators so there is a possibility that ancient Balkanians harbored Eastern European DNA (prior to the Slavic migrations). We still don't have any samples from Balkan hunter gatherers so there is still a possibility that I2a Dinaric would have been found in them.

[Kelmendasi]

Have you seen the Gedmatch results for the ancient Cretan_Armenoi sample? It gets a great deal of Eastern European DNA on the Dodecad calculators so there is a possibility that ancient Balkanians harbored Eastern European DNA (prior to the Slavic migrations). We still don't have any samples from Balkan hunter gatherers so there is still a possibility that I2a Dinaric would have been found in them.
We do, they were I2a2a1b2, I2a1a, I2a2a etc not I2a1b which has a north Euro and then East Euro origin

[Dick]

GHG or Gravettian-era hunter gatherers.

[Kouros]

Have you seen the Gedmatch results for the ancient Cretan_Armenoi sample? It gets a great deal of Eastern European DNA on the Dodecad calculators so there is a possibility that ancient Balkanians harbored Eastern European DNA (prior to the Slavic migrations). We still don't have any samples from Balkan hunter gatherers so there is still a possibility that I2a Dinaric would have been found in them.

Crete_Armenoi sample is low quality and it goes all over the place on GEDmatch depending on what calculator you run it through. At least that's what I remember seeing.

[Dick]

Have you seen the Gedmatch results for the ancient Cretan_Armenoi sample? It gets a great deal of Eastern European DNA on the Dodecad calculators so there is a possibility that ancient Balkanians harbored Eastern European DNA (prior to the Slavic migrations). We still don't have any samples from Balkan hunter gatherers so there is still a possibility that I2a Dinaric would have been found in them.

That's because the various calculators are made like that. North-east Europeans have the most WHG(western hunter gatherers) on gedmatch which dosnt make any sense to me considering Loschbour man and La Brana were not from the Baltics so why would East Europeans have the most WHG in the first place and meanwhile they also have the most IE/steppe on gedmatch. They probably killed off a lot of WHG. It's like an oxy-moron.

[catgeorge]

We do, they were I2a2a1b2, I2a1a, I2a2a etc not I2a1b which has a north Euro and then East Euro origin

It is and always has been Celtic (central Europe) in origin as Dick suggested. You and other Albanians have always been living in a delusion regarding this. I am not sure how many times we need to tell you its origin over and over.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P37/

[Dick]

It is and always has been Celtic (central Europe) in origin as Dick suggested. You and other Albanians have always been living in a delusion regarding this. I am not sure how many times we need to tell you its origin over and over.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P37/

I never suggested that it is Celtic. It is far from that nor is the gravettian culture even IE but it can be related to Celts that entered the Balkans I suppose. The culture was first identified at the site of La Gravette in Southwestern France and continued as the Epigravettian in Italy, the Balkans/Danube basin, Ukraine, and Russia or perhaps the other way around?

[JQP4545]

We do, they were I2a2a1b2, I2a1a, I2a2a etc not I2a1b which has a north Euro and then East Euro origin

Sources?

[Bosniensis]

I2a1b is NON-IE Balkan haplogroup. Formation of I2 happened in Western Balkans.

I2a1b is strongest in Dalmatia (Roman Dalmatia) and around Podrinje and Pudunavlje.

Question is: Why would Slavs settle in Dalmatia, on a location where it's literally Impossible to Farm, to Grow Stocks, nothing... Dalmatia is a Rocky mountains.

Why would they settle there?

Why would I2 cross all over Vojvodina (the most fertile part of Serbia), Central Bosnia (Great for growing stocks - husbandry) and settle in Rocky Dalmatia?

Can we say that Slavs were Master Sailors? They were not, nor they were good at ship building.

Also why do we find Illyrian Pagan Temples in Dalmatia and not a single one Slavic?

Temple of Vidassus? Temple of Temple of Bindus etc...

The only reason why there are I2a1 people in Ukraine, Belarus itd... is due to migrations, Balkan was invaded by R1a people (Scythians, Sarmatians)
who even today make up to 30% of Populace in some Regions.

[Vojnik]

I stick with I2 being of Balkan origin. R1a is 'Slavic'.

[Kelmendasi]

It is and always has been Celtic (central Europe) in origin as Dick suggested. You and other Albanians have always been living in a delusion regarding this. I am not sure how many times we need to tell you its origin over and over.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P37/
Oh stop it, it has been found in ancient SHG samples

[Kelmendasi]

I stick with I2 being of Balkan origin. R1a is 'Slavic'.
It’s not though, the I2 clade which is in the Balkans has the highest diversity around Poland and Ukraine suggesting an expansion from there also I2a1b was found in SHG samples

[Kelmendasi]

Sources?
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616

[JQP4545]

It’s not though, the I2 clade which is in the Balkans has the highest diversity around Poland and Ukraine suggesting an expansion from there also I2a1b was found in SHG samples

How can we know this with any certainty when far more people have been sampled from Poland and Ukraine than from the Balkan countries?

[JQP4545]

I2a1b is NON-IE Balkan haplogroup. Formation of I2 happened in Western Balkans.

I2a1b is strongest in Dalmatia (Roman Dalmatia) and around Podrinje and Pudunavlje.

Question is: Why would Slavs settle in Dalmatia, on a location where it's literally Impossible to Farm, to Grow Stocks, nothing... Dalmatia is a Rocky mountains.

Why would they settle there?

Why would I2 cross all over Vojvodina (the most fertile part of Serbia), Central Bosnia (Great for growing stocks - husbandry) and settle in Rocky Dalmatia?

Can we say that Slavs were Master Sailors? They were not, nor they were good at ship building.

Also why do we find Illyrian Pagan Temples in Dalmatia and not a single one Slavic?

Temple of Vidassus? Temple of Temple of Bindus etc...

The only reason why there are I2a1 people in Ukraine, Belarus itd... is due to migrations, Balkan was invaded by R1a people (Scythians, Sarmatians)
who even today make up to 30% of Populace in some Regions.

Even within Croatia it becomes more common in the more remote and mountainous areas of the country.

[Kelmendasi]

How can we know this with any certainty when far more people have been sampled from Poland and Ukraine than from the Balkan countries?
By the fact that the I2a1b clade in the Balkans has the highest diversity in that region suggesting an expansion from there also the oldest examples of the I2a1b found in the Balkans is in Medieval Poland and Russia. But, the ancestor of this I2a1b clade comes from NW Europe as shown by SHG samples being I2a1b and the brother clade of the I2a1b in the Balkans is almost exclusive to western Europe. The only I2a1b clade which could have been in the Balkans before Slavs in my opinion are either just basal I2a1b* or I2a1b-L161.1. The mutation found in South Slavs links back to East Europe and before that NW Europe. Also there are plenty of people sampled from the Balkans

[safinator]

How retarded does one need to be to believe into the I2a1b from Balkans origin theory after all the counter evidence is beyond me.

[JQP4545]

By the fact that the I2a1b clade in the Balkans has the highest diversity in that region suggesting an expansion from there also the oldest examples of the I2a1b found in the Balkans is in Medieval Poland and Russia. But, the ancestor of this I2a1b clade comes from NW Europe as shown by SHG samples being I2a1b and the brother clade of the I2a1b in the Balkans is almost exclusive to western Europe. The only I2a1b clade which could have been in the Balkans before Slavs in my opinion are either just basal I2a1b* or I2a1b-L161.1. The mutation found in South Slavs links back to East Europe and before that NW Europe. Also there are plenty of people sampled from the Balkans

Have you looked at the number of people sampled on FTDNA? The total number of samples from the Balkans only amount to approximately 1,000, whereas the number of samples from Poland and Ukraine alone is over 9,000. So how can we accurately calculate the center of diversity when there aren't enough samples from the Balkans?

[Jana]

Have you looked at the number of people sampled on FTDNA? The total number of samples from the Balkans only amount to approximately 1,000, whereas the number of samples from Poland and Ukraine alone is over 9,000. So how can we accurately calculate the center of diversity when there aren't enough samples from the Balkans?

That can be said for any haplogroup that exist. Wrong premise.

[Bosniensis]

How retarded does one need to be to believe into the I2a1b from Balkans origin theory after all the counter evidence is beyond me.

Because I2 was formed on Balkans even of I2a1b people came from Poland and Ukraine they basically came home from where th y initially went on journey so STFU


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[Kelmendasi]

Have you looked at the number of people sampled on FTDNA? The total number of samples from the Balkans only amount to approximately 1,000, whereas the number of samples from Poland and Ukraine alone is over 9,000. So how can we accurately calculate the center of diversity when there aren't enough samples from the Balkans?
Most South Slavs have their own Ydna testing groups and don’t use Ftdna. Diversity isn’t even measured by sample size but by SNPs and STRs iirc. The Balkan origin theory is currently obsolete and has no evidence to back it, the only reason why people claim it to be native is because it is most common in South Slavs, but if you know about haplogroups then you should know that basing things off from frequencies is wrong

[Kelmendasi]

Because I2 was formed on Balkans even of I2a1b people came from Poland and Ukraine they basically came home from where th y initially went on journey so STFU


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Not all IJ stayed in the Balkans to become I, they migrated all over Europe

[JQP4545]

Most South Slavs have their own Ydna testing groups and don’t use Ftdna.

Can you provide links to testing companies? I think you are missing my point. I'm not trying to say that diversity is measured by the size of a sample, but that in a larger sample we will find more SNP and STR types.

[Kelmendasi]

Can you provide links to testing companies? I think you are missing my point. I'm not trying to say that diversity is measured by the size of a sample, but that in a larger sample we will find more SNP and STR types.
https://dnk.poreklo.rs, http://bosnjackidnk.com. We still have enough samples to determine diversity though also there are probably DNA papers and studies on this, the I2a1b in the Balkans isn’t diverse. Also aDNA disproves the Balkan theory. The Balkan theory as said before has no evidence and is purely based on frequencies.

[cosmoo]

"I2-L621 lineages could have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Proto-Indo-European society somewhere around Ukraine, Poland or Belarus, then as the centuries and millennia passed, would have blended with the predominantly R1a populations around them. The resulting amalgam would have become the ancestors of the Proto-Slavs"

Your other posts in this thread are spot-on, but this copied text is not. There is absolutely no evidence for any I2a1b in eastern Europe (especially in PIE times), let alone L621. It definitely has origin in natives of NW Europe, as you have rightly pointed out elsewhere.


Sweden, Motala 12 - 5898-5531 calBC - L147.2+ [*insufficient on its own to designate a downstream subclade], L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-
Mathieson et al. 2017 marked it as I2a1b CTS10228. Moreover, there is no evidence of it being L621-, Haak et al. 2015 points out that its rather inconclusive, and Genetiker found L621-level SNPs.

[cosmoo]

That's because the various calculators are made like that. North-east Europeans have the most WHG(western hunter gatherers) on gedmatch which dosnt make any sense to me considering Loschbour man and La Brana were not from the Baltics so why would East Europeans have the most WHG in the first place and meanwhile they also have the most IE/steppe on gedmatch. They probably killed off a lot of WHG. It's like an oxy-moron.

Spot-on. Them having most WHG and IE admixture at the same time is highly contradictive, so are even average European WHG percentages, considering they were approximately 20 times less numerous than IE and Neolithics alike. Moreover, Balts are as far from typical WHG visage as it gets.

[cosmoo]

I2a1b is NON-IE Balkan haplogroup. Formation of I2 happened in Western Balkans.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, I2a1b is Mesolithic Northern, not Balkan. And there is absolutely no proof that I2 as a whole (founded at least 23.000 ybp) descends from Balkans, origins from Gravettian Western Europe are far, far more likely.

[Jana]

I2a1b is strongest in Dalmatia (Roman Dalmatia) and around Podrinje and Pudunavlje.
Question is: Why would Slavs settle in Dalmatia, on a location where it's literally Impossible to Farm, to Grow Stocks, nothing... Dalmatia is a Rocky mountains.

Utter ignorance on your part. Medieval Dalmatia was far, far away from being rocky and desolate as it is today. I read bioloigical study of ancient Dalmatian flora, and it was heavily forested region somewhere before high middle ages.
Corosion of the soil started due to lack of care and knowledge by newly-settled Croats who came from eastern european farmland, and didn't have knowledge of ancient Romans how to cultivate mediterranean terrain.

Trough centuries of erosion, soil thinning, Venetian occupation and forest-cutting (and later introduction of alien flora, mainly from eastern mediterranean which is destroying all native plants), it became ''rocky'' and infertile.
Ancient Dalmatia was land of pine forests and fertile valleys which still exist today (Neretva river valley and north Dalmatian flatlands-Ravni kotari are probably among most climatically pleasant and agriculturally rich areas of Europe).

Another thing. Croats settled in Dalmatia first. We founded our state in Dalmatia. Croatian name travelled north to panonnian plain from Dalmatia, not the opposite. All historical sources speak about arrival of Croats to Dalmatia. So if you are searching for people with original Croat tribal ancestry, start your search in south.

[Kelmendasi]

Your other posts in this thread are spot-on, but this copied text is not. There is absolutely no evidence for any I2a1b in eastern Europe (especially in PIE times), let alone L621. It definitely has origin in natives of NW Europe, as you have rightly pointed out elsewhere.


Mathieson et al. 2017 marked it as I2a1b CTS10228. Moreover, there is no evidence of it being L621-, Haak et al. 2015 points out that its rather inconclusive, and Genetiker found L621-level SNPs.
Yh, I copied that from Expedia I think just to show that it has expanded via Slavs but yh I agree with it being of NW Euro origin

[Bosniensis]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, I2a1b is Mesolithic Northern, not Balkan. And there is absolutely no proof that I2 as a whole (founded at least 23.000 ybp) descends from Balkans, origins from Gravettian Western Europe are far, far more likely.

I have found about 10 these maps, from 10 different sources, and you are saying that YOU are more reliable?

https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/i_haplogroup_migration_map.png

[cosmoo]

I have found about 10 these maps, from 10 different sources, and you are saying that YOU are more reliable?

https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/i_haplogroup_migration_map.png

Anyone with photo-editing skills can make those kinds of maps, and this one is completely inaccurate, placing origin of I1 and I2b in Scandinavia, even though its clear know they originated much more to the south. Also, I-M170 as a whole originated in Europe, not in Middle East.
Moreover, I2 didn't get formed as soon as I-M170 appeared in Europe. UP men were spread all over the Europe when it formed, and Gravettian of western/central Europe is the most logical answer so far.