Irish DNA Atlas

[Grace O'Malley]

Time to make a thread about this. The full results should be released in February 2018.

Some interesting snippets from this study. The closest population outside of Britain to the Irish are the Bretons (not really surprising) they are "the last Celtic isolate in France". A lot of admixture in the north of Ireland from the British plantations of the 17th and 18th century.

I found this interesting "a significant part of the Irish genome looks rather Norwegian but not just any Norwegian, it looks like the type of Norwegian you find on the west coast of Norway which is where the Norse Vikings came from so we decided to see whether we could detect the admixture, see where we could date the time of that admixture and the date of that admixture arrives just around the time, just the end of the first millennium which was when the Norse Vikings were appearing around the Irish coast and this Norwegian ancestry is spread throughout Ireland which means that there has to be a movement of people post-dating the Viking invasion of Ireland to spread that Norwegian ancestry through Ireland."

Quotes are from this presentation. Listen from about 25.00 approx.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwRZvLDSuoo



This explains why I come out half Norwegian on the K13.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.50
7 Amerindian 1.38


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 3.343981
2 Irish @ 3.397813
3 West_Scottish @ 4.026271
4 Norwegian @ 4.042346
5 Orcadian @ 4.244986
6 Danish @ 4.289660
7 North_German @ 6.192955
8 Southeast_English @ 6.842666
9 Southwest_English @ 6.901150
10 Swedish @ 7.318733
11 South_Dutch @ 11.629003
12 West_German @ 12.655422
13 North_Swedish @ 14.482445
14 Austrian @ 17.549162
15 East_German @ 17.693420
16 French @ 18.062477
17 Hungarian @ 22.544872
18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.876503
19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.292759
20 Southwest_French @ 27.316259

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.522953


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.519424
2 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.522953
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.540311
4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.548502
5 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.564251
6 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.622005
7 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.648387
8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.664680
9 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.680890
10 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.683445
11 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.695799
12 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.721051
13 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.729033
14 Danish + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.747781
15 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.753577
16 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.764748
17 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.766720
18 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.767802
19 Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.767981
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.775764

There are quite a few maps and information released from this study already which I could include but I will do at a later date. Looking forward to when this study is released. On a side note it is funny how this information is released in an Irish pub. I'm kind of proud. :)

[Grace O'Malley]

I wanted to add that Danish dna is similar to Anglo-Saxon dna which explains why the PoBI had difficulties in detecting Viking input into Britain excepting places like the Orkneys and Western Isles (Norwegian admixture detected). Norwegian dna is more distinct.

Here is a breakdown from the PoBI.

http://i63.tinypic.com/x537tu.jpg

I have to acknowledge contributors from Anthrogenica for this information.

[Grace O'Malley]

The Norse appeared to have targeted Ireland and Scotland while the Danes targeted England. It will be interesting to see how genetics collaborates this. To be honest I'm a bit surprised at these results (well mildly :)). Anyway I'm not surprised at the affinity with the Bretons. The Irish and Bretons are brothers and the Normans are quite close as well. (Ilma looking at you. :))

[Token]

I don't think Viking input explain your Norwegian affinity, i remember reading a genetic study done in Ireland with people of Norse surname and they concluded that Norse settlers were just a minority and Norwegian surnames were adopted by local populations, it's avaiable in nature.com if i remember well. By the way, it was a study based in Y-DNA frequency, not proper admixture, so i'm curious to see these results.

[Grace O'Malley]

I don't think Viking input explain your Norwegian affinity, i remember reading a genetic study done in Ireland with people with Norse surnames and they concluded that Norse settlers were just a minority and Norwegian surnames were adopted by local populations, it's avaiable in nature.com if i remember well. By the way, it was a study based in Y-DNA frequency, not proper admixture so i'm curious to see these results.

This was done on admixture analysis and was dated to the time of the Norse invasions. What could explain the Norwegian affinity then?

[Grace O'Malley]

Here is my MDLP K16 Modern. I've always put down this affinity to Steppe input into Ireland but it does look highly suggestive of possible Norwegian input. I just go where the trail leads me and I would hope most impartial people would do the same. I'm very much looking forward to when they release the full study.

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 29.09
2 NorthEastEuropean 27.18
3 Steppe 23.58
4 Caucasian 18.22
5 Indian 1.93


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.070924
2 Scottish_Highlands @ 2.413141
3 Irish_Connacht @ 2.650253
4 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 2.699899
5 Irish_Munster @ 2.763847
6 English_England @ 2.810001
7 Scottish_Fife @ 2.831680
8 Scottish_Grampian @ 2.944053
9 French_WestFrance @ 3.040382
10 Irish_Ulster @ 3.068829
11 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 3.116096
12 Irish_Leinster @ 3.159273
13 English_Cornwall @ 3.197281
14 Scottish_Borders @ 3.200844
15 English_Kent @ 3.565556
16 Dutch_Netherlands @ 3.938280
17 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 4.994287
18 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 5.014809
19 Welsh_Wales @ 5.432254
20 Swede_Sweden @ 5.650186

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_Netherlands +50% English_Kent @ 1.863048


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_Netherlands +25% English_Kent +25% English_Kent @ 1.863048


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.771157
2 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Cornwall + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.784667
3 German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.788695
4 English_England + German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.827064
5 German_Germany + Irish_Cork_Kerry + Norwegian_Norwegia + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.827834
6 Dutch_Netherlands + English_England + English_Kent + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.828939
7 Dutch_Netherlands + German_Germany + Irish_Ulster + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.833052
8 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.837282
9 English_England + English_Kent + English_Kent + Pole_EastPoland @ 1.838454
10 English_England + German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.842378
11 Dutch_Netherlands + German_Germany + Irish_Cork_Kerry + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.845264
12 English_England + German_Germany + Irish_Cork_Kerry + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 1.846926
13 English_England + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.847516
14 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.853884
15 German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Highlands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.854654
16 German_Germany + Irish_Munster + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.857291
17 Dutch_Netherlands + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 1.858533
18 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Cornwall + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.859172
19 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + English_Kent @ 1.863048
20 English_England + German_Germany + Irish_Connacht + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 1.868226

[Token]

This was done on admixture analysis and was dated to the time of the Norse invasions. What could explain the Norwegian affinity then?

Probably a Bronze Age link. The west coast of Norway was the only portion of Scandinavia that was part of the Atlantic Bronze Age cultural complex, which explain the genetic link of this specific area with Ireland.

[Grace O'Malley]

Probably a Bronze Age link. The west coast of Norway was the only portion of Scandinavia that was part of the Atlantic Bronze Age cultural complex, which explain the genetic link of this specific area with Ireland.

Possibly but how to explain the admixture event to the time of the Norse Vikings? I am open to the Bronze Age link but the Irish are very Bell Beaker and the Norwegians more Corded Ware.

I appreciate your input Token and I have to admit I find this fascinating.

[Grace O'Malley]

It is also interesting to note that the Norse started up the Irish cities of Dublin, Waterford, Limerick and Cork. Possibly it is not so surprising to find Norse admixture in the Irish. There is much more history of Norse input into Ireland as well as the British than many other groups of Europeans. These results should not be so surprising really. Is anyone that surprised?

[Token]

Possibly but how to explain the admixture event to the time of the Norse Vikings? I am open to the Bronze Age link but the Irish are very Bell Beaker and the Norwegians more Corded Ware.

I appreciate your input Token and I have to admit I find this fascinating.
Norse settlers certainly mixed with natives but this can't really explain why half of your genetic make-up is Norwegian-like and, assuming that you are fully Irish your results are probably not much different from other Irish individuals. If we attribute this input to Norse invasions we would be assuming that half of the Irish genepool was replaced during this period and this certainly didn't occured. Like you said, Ireland didn't changed much since the Bronze Age and i agree with your last statement, Grace.

[Grace O'Malley]

Norse settlers certainly mixed with natives but this can't really explain why half of your genetic make-up is Norwegian-like and, assuming that you are fully Irish your results are probably not much different from other Irish individuals. If we attribute this input to Norse invasions we would be assuming that half of the Irish genepool was replaced during this period and this certainly didn't occured. Like you said, Ireland didn't changed much since the Bronze Age and i agree with your last statement, Grace.

Yes I am indeed fully Irish and half my ancestry is from the west coast of Ireland. I am still intrigued that they date this admixture to the "first millennium" this is the part that is intriguing. How do you interpret that?

[Grace O'Malley]

Possibly Norwegian similarity could be due to the Bronze Age (where does this leave the Atlantic Facade? :)). I guess we will have to wait until February when the findings are discussed in more detail but that the admixture event has been marked to the time of the Viking invasions of Ireland so it is kind of implied here . They also pinpointed the admixture in Northern Ireland to the Plantations in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Anyway I'm sure no one is surprised at the Irish similarity to Bretons? This has been documented before.

I hope more people will comment. I'll add more information in the coming weeks.

[de Burgh II]

Perhaps its the limitations of the technology? That has only has enough snps to read an "Northern affinity" via high Steppic admixture. I know you once linked a scholarly journal article reiterating total population replacement of the Neolithic population in Ireland such as the Ballynahatty genetic sample who was very Neolithic. This sample had a high affinity with an Iberian-like/Sardinian populations. That got completely replaced by a Steppic population such as the Rathlin samples. That had more genetic relatedness with Northern populations. Thus, it maybe possible that the Irish share a similar founder effect with Norwegians when it comes to this autosomal relatedness. Central European Bell Beakers were known for their high Steppic admixture along with Corded Ware peoples. Hence, this Celto-Germanic Northern affinity in autosomal plotting is the reason behind Irish being closely related to Norwegians and vice versa. Alot of Bronze Age tribes such as Celts (whom sprung in Central Europe) and Germanics (near Jutland) share a common autosomal beginning via the Steppes. Thus, it is logical to assume that it may have came via Steppic ancestry.

[Grace O'Malley]

Perhaps its the limitations of the technology? That has only has enough snps to read an "Northern affinity" via high Steppic admixture. I know you once linked a scholarly journal article reiterating total population replacement of the Neolithic population in Ireland such as the Ballynahatty genetic sample who was very Neolithic. This sample had a high affinity with an Iberian-like/Sardinian populations. That got completely replaced by a Steppic population such as the Rathlin samples. That had more genetic relatedness with Northern populations. Thus, it maybe possible that the Irish share a similar founder effect with Norwegians when it comes to this autosomal relatedness. Central European Bell Beakers were known for their high Steppic admixture along with Corded Ware peoples. Hence, this Celto-Germanic Northern affinity in autosomal plotting is the reason behind Irish being closely related to Norwegians and vice versa. Alot of Bronze Age tribes such as Celts (whom sprung in Central Europe) and Germanics (near Jutland) share a common autosomal beginning via the Steppes. Thus, it is logical to assume that it may have came via Steppic ancestry.

This is what I have always assumed but as I've said it is interesting that they have traced this admixture event to the first millennium. This is
based on admixture so unless they can't differentiate Irish versus Norwegian. I'm presuming these geneticists know what they are talking about otherwise all these studies are inaccurate including the PoBI. It is also interesting that they detected Norwegian in places like Orkney and the western isles. They found it difficult to detect Danish Vikings in the English and this is most likely due to similarity with Anglo-Saxons. Either the IrishDNA Atlas is incorrect in their summations but that also throws all these genetic studies into doubt. I'm sure no one doubts the Breton affinity?

Is the PoBI also incorrect?

[de Burgh II]

This is what I have always assumed but as I've said it is interesting that they have traced this admixture event to the first millennium. This is
based on admixture so unless they can't differentiate Irish versus Norwegian. I'm presuming these geneticists know what they are talking about otherwise all these studies are inaccurate including the PoBI. It is also interesting that they detected Norwegian in places like Orkney and the western isles. They found it difficult to detect Danish Vikings in the English and this is most likely due to similarity with Anglo-Saxons. Either the IrishDNA Atlas is incorrect in their summations but that also throws all these genetic studies into doubt. I'm sure no one doubts the Breton affinity?

Is the PoBI also incorrect?

I would say the Breton affinity is quite real via studies done that shows they have genetic relatedness with Irish populations (then English) than other French regions. Which makes me wonder what constitutes a native "Brittonic" genetic marker? One thing can only be certain; native Britons were closely related to Irish before the mixing/establishment of Anglo-Saxon settlements in England.

The only pet peeve I have with the PoBI for England/Scotland is not adding in a native Brittonic/Pictish genetic marker; so you can give a rough estimate for what accounts as "foreign admixture" such as Belgian/French/German/Danish/Scandinavian admixture.

[Grace O'Malley]

I would say the Breton affinity is quite real via studies done that shows they have genetic relatedness with Irish populations (then English) than other French regions. Which makes me wonder what constitutes a native "Brittonic" genetic marker? One thing can only be certain; native Britons were closely related to Irish before the mixing/establishment of Anglo-Saxon settlements in England.

The only pet peeve I have with the PoBI for England/Scotland is not adding in a native Brittonic/Pictish genetic marker; so you can give a rough estimate for what accounts as "foreign admixture" such as Belgian/French/German/Danish/Scandinavian admixture.

They added in Northern French though. They originally had the Irish but it masked the continental input too much. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the original study but the Highlanders came out as over 63% Irish when the Irish were included. It makes sense to take out the Irish because they obviously originally came from the European continent as well.

I can't see how they can look at admix any other way. The Northern French (including Bretons) should be a proxy for Gaulish Celts. They also added in Southern French/Northern Spanish.

[Token]

Yes I am indeed fully Irish and half my ancestry is from the west coast of Ireland. I am still intrigued that they date this admixture to the "first millennium" this is the part that is intriguing. How do you interpret that?

I prefer to wait for the full results, i also didn't watched the video but i'll do it when i get home. Anyway, i doubt they will find high percentages of recent Norse ancestry, like i stated before my opinion is that the Norwegian affinity in Ireland dates back to the Bronze Age and can be connected to the Atlantic Bronze Age cultural exchanges, that also probably involved genetic interchange, or, like de Burgh said, via Steppic affinity.

[Grace O'Malley]

I prefer to wait for the full results, i also didn't watched the video but i'll do it when i get home. Anyway, i doubt they will find high percentages of recent Norse ancestry, like i stated before my opinion is that the Norwegian affinity in Ireland dates back to the Bronze Age and can be connected to the Atlantic Bronze Age cultural exchanges, that also probably involved genetic interchange, or, like de Burgh said, via Steppic affinity.

You should watch the video before you comment. He specifically stated this was an admixture event around the time of the Viking invasion of Ireland. Not sure how anyone can be more specific.

The Irish are a north shifted population as I've noted numerous times I've always put down the Scandinavian affinity to the Bronze Age but if these geneticists are incorrect in picking up admixture than all the other dna studies are incorrect as well. The PoBI must be incorrect in picking up Anglo Saxon admixture in the east coast of England. People readily accept Anglo Saxon admixture in the English but not Norse admixture in the Irish. Of course people readily accept that the Irish are Iberian admixed even though there is no recorded event of Iberians into Ireland. Go figure?

[Grace O'Malley]

OK known foreign incursions into Ireland. The Celts, then the Vikings, after them came the Normans and then the British. Ireland is an island at the extremes of Europe. It is fairly homogeneous. There is a lot of myth about the Irish and this poem comes to mind.

It must have been the Irish, who built the pyramids,
For no one else could carry up the bricks.
It must have been a Doyle, who swam the river Nile,
For no one but an Irishman could fight a crocodile.
And every Houlihan once led a caravan;
They say the same for every Mc and O.
When Moses came to Egypt and saw those Irish faces,
He took the name of Callahan and changed it to O'Asis.
Now all the Houlihans and all the Gilligans
Must have been Egyptians long ago-o-o-o-o-o.

History must be a guide and anyone looking at a genetic dna plot of Europe must have some idea of Irish genetics surely?

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's notes taken by Heber (from Anthrogenica) from the October session on the IDA.

IDA, No Live Streaming, No Photos
1. The Irish DNA Atlas, Preface
2. Novembre Fine Scale Structure, similar to POBI
3. Highest Frequency Ireland, R1b, Red Hair, Lactose Tolerance, Hemachromotis etc.
4. Migrations Vikings, Normans, Planters
5. Irish Y DNA Studies, Bradley, M222 etc
6. North South Ireland Divide
7. North South Munster Divide
8. Ancient DNA, Ballynahatty, Rathlin
9. Neolithic, Bronze Age Replacement
10. Irish DNA Atlas, Methodology
11. 8 GGP, 50 KM, GSI Recruited Samples
12. 330 Samples Processed, 192 Selected
13. 600K Varients, Illumina Omniexpress
14. Population Structure
15. IDA compared to POBI 2,000 Samples using fineStructure
16. 30 Clusters in Britain
17. 10 Clusters
18. 3 Irish British (NI), 7 Irish
19. NI-1. 1-7 Irish, 26 English (Anglo Saxon, Planter)
20. NI-2. 53 Irish, 19 Scottish, (Dal Riada)
21. NI-3. ? Irish, ? Border (Riever?, Planter)
22. NI-3>NI-2>NI-1
23. SMunster, NMunster, Leinster, Central, Connacht, ...
24. Clare is mixture of Munster and Connacht
25. Population Structure / Migration Rates using EEMS
26. Very Nice Map showing Migration Rates
27. Clear East Ulster / West Ulster Divide
28. Clear North / South Divide
29. Possibly Reflects Eskar Riada (My Analysis)
30. Clear West Midlands Divide
31. Possibly Reflects Slieve Bloom, Last Gaelic Stronghold (My Analysis)
32. Irish British Admixture dated to 17th Century
33. Possibly Reflects Tudor, Cromwellian, Williamite Plantations
34. European Regression Analysis
35. 30 Irish + British Clusters, 51 European Clusters
36. Irish>British>NW France>Belgium>Germany
37. England/Danish/German Cluster, Anglo Saxon
38. Irish/NW France Cluster, Celtic
39. Norwegian Cluster, Viking
40. French Ancestry Interpolation (Nice Map)
41. European Ancestry Admixture (Chart)
42. Ireland quiet isolated, French like Ancestry
43. No clear identification of Anglo Norman Cluster
44. Viking not present in Y study, present in IDA fineStructure study
45. Purple Gaelic Cluster in Ulster most distant from Britain Cluster
46. Future: FGS all Samples, Y and mtDNA if funding permits
47. Continue recruiting samples, also working on Isle of Man
48. Paper submitted, results presented at ASHG this week
49. Responded to most questions
50. Awaiting publication date.

[Petalpusher]

Seems like an eternity this thing should be released.

I think it's a combination a bronze age and more recent Scandinavians input and i still believe than in the grand scheme of things, Irish are basically a Breton-Norse blend. About your region of ancestry in particular could have had more intense northern influences. Even on K15 you are halfway Ireland-Norway (you look like it too me thinks)

[Grace O'Malley]

Seems like an eternity this thing should be released.

I think it's a combination a bronze age and more recent Scandinavians input and i still believe than in the grand scheme of things, Irish are basically a Breton-Norse blend. About your region of ancestry in particular could have had more intense northern influences. Even on K15 you are halfway Ireland-Norway (you look like it too me thinks)

I acknowledge that this study seems to be taking an eternity. It started in 2011 and I've been following it since. They are just waiting now on publication but the final information will be released in February so not too long now to wait. I also agree that the Irish appear to be a Breton (or North French) and Norse blend and I think this is what this study will show. It will also be interesting to see what the British influence is.

I think things are finally beginning to make sense and Gedmatch calculators aren't too far off base in looking at populations' admixtures.

[Graham]

Dublin did carve out a decent Norse kingdom for a while.

What y DNA couldn't pick up because of perhaps a Population bottleneck might show on this.

Or old bronze age links as mentioned.

[Sikeliot]

Did they determine where in Ireland the Scandinavian input is strongest and where it is weakest?

[Grace O'Malley]

Did they determine where in Ireland the Scandinavian input is strongest and where it is weakest?

They said it was throughout the Irish population. Here's the quote "the date of that admixture arrives just around the time, just the end of the first millennium which was when the Norse Vikings were appearing around the Irish coast and this Norwegian ancestry is spread throughout Ireland which means that there has to be a movement of people post-dating the Viking invasion of Ireland to spread that Norwegian ancestry through Ireland."

I'm sure when the study is released we will see a better breakdown as per the PoBI study.

[Kouros]

OK known foreign incursions into Ireland. The Celts, then the Vikings, after them came the Normans and then the British. Ireland is an island at the extremes of Europe. It is fairly homogeneous. There is a lot of myth about the Irish and this poem comes to mind.

It must have been the Irish, who built the pyramids,
For no one else could carry up the bricks.
It must have been a Doyle, who swam the river Nile,
For no one but an Irishman could fight a crocodile.
And every Houlihan once led a caravan;
They say the same for every Mc and O.
When Moses came to Egypt and saw those Irish faces,
He took the name of Callahan and changed it to O'Asis.
Now all the Houlihans and all the Gilligans
Must have been Egyptians long ago-o-o-o-o-o.

History must be a guide and anyone looking at a genetic dna plot of Europe must have some idea of Irish genetics surely?

Some people have this theory that Celts are the lost tribe of Israel and connect Celts to the Egyptians, the 'Danites' of Israel, as well as the 'Danaans' of Homer's Iliad, don't know how true that is but it sounds cool. Maybe this poem is referring to pre-Celtic migrations in to Ireland from Iberia or North Africa? There's a theory about that to.

There's all kinds of whacky theories :laugh:

Here's one that is popular:
http://www.british-israel.ca/Simeon.htm

[Kouros]

This is cool too

https://i.imgur.com/6I6LvGw.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

Some people have this theory that Celts are the lost tribe of Israel and connect Celts to the Egyptians, the 'Danites' of Israel, as well as the 'Danaans' of Homer's Iliad, don't know how true that is but it sounds cool. Maybe this poem is referring to pre-Celtic migrations in to Ireland from Iberia or North Africa? There's a theory about that to.

There's all kinds of whacky theories :laugh:

Here's one that is popular:
http://www.british-israel.ca/Simeon.htm

Well Irish monks wrote the Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) which is where the whole Iberian thing came from. People ignore though that the monks said before Gaels came to Iberia they were also from Egypt and Scythia. Anyway there has been all sorts of theories on the Irish and the English used to think of them as a different race to them.

We have genetics now so we can put aside all the old myths.

[Grace O'Malley]

Seems like an eternity this thing should be released.

I think it's a combination a bronze age and more recent Scandinavians input and i still believe than in the grand scheme of things, Irish are basically a Breton-Norse blend. About your region of ancestry in particular could have had more intense northern influences. Even on K15 you are halfway Ireland-Norway (you look like it too me thinks)

How accurate you were Petalpusher. The Irish are indeed an admixture of Northwestern French and West Norwegians.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229666-The-Irish-DNA-Atlas-Revealing-Fine-Scale-Population-Structure-and-History-within-Ireland&p=4833627#post4833627

[Grace O'Malley]

Researchers led by RCSI (Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland) and the Genealogical Society of Ireland have published 'The Irish DNA Atlas; Revealing Fine-Scale Population Structure and History within Ireland' in the journal Scientific Reports. The landmark study provides the first fine-scale genetic map of the island of Ireland, revealing patterns of genetic similarity, so far in ten distinct clusters, roughly aligned with the ancient Provinces as well as with major historical events including the invasions of the Norse Vikings and the Ulster Plantations.

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?n=110&p=100&a=11226

The extent of population structure within Ireland is largely unknown, as is the impact of historical migrations. Here we illustrate fine-scale genetic structure across Ireland that follows geographic boundaries and present evidence of admixture events into Ireland. Utilising the ‘Irish DNA Atlas’, a cohort (n = 194) of Irish individuals with four generations of ancestry linked to specific regions in Ireland, in combination with 2,039 individuals from the Peoples of the British Isles dataset, we show that the Irish population can be divided in 10 distinct geographically stratified genetic clusters; seven of ‘Gaelic’ Irish ancestry, and three of shared Irish-British ancestry. In addition we observe a major genetic barrier to the north of Ireland in Ulster. Using a reference of 6,760 European individuals and two ancient Irish genomes, we demonstrate high levels of North-West French-like and West Norwegian-like ancestry within Ireland. We show that that our ‘Gaelic’ Irish clusters present homogenous levels of ancient Irish ancestries. We additionally detect admixture events that provide evidence of Norse-Viking gene flow into Ireland, and reflect the Ulster Plantations. Our work informs both on Irish history, as well as the study of Mendelian and complex disease genetics involving populations of Irish ancestry.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

[Grace O'Malley]

Anyway this explains my Norse affinity on Gedmatch. The calculators are not too inaccurate.

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.5
7 Amerindian 1.38
8 Siberian 0.75
9 Oceanian 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 3.04
2 Irish 3.1
3 Norwegian 3.6
4 West_Scottish 3.61
5 Orcadian 3.82
6 Danish 3.86
7 North_German 5.45
8 Southeast_English 6.09
9 Southwest_English 6.26
10 Swedish 6.5
11 South_Dutch 10.22
12 West_German 11.04
13 North_Swedish 12.82
14 Austrian 15.29
15 East_German 15.45
16 French 15.89
17 Hungarian 19.56
18 Southwest_Finnish 21.09
19 Spanish_Cataluna 23.25
20 South_Polish 24.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Irish + 42.9% Norwegian @ 2.28
2 50.1% Norwegian + 49.9% West_Scottish @ 2.33
3 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Swedish @ 2.54
4 51.6% North_Dutch + 48.4% Irish @ 2.56
5 70.2% West_Scottish + 29.8% Swedish @ 2.58
6 61.6% North_Dutch + 38.4% West_Scottish @ 2.6
7 88.2% Irish + 11.8% North_Swedish @ 2.61
8 94.4% Irish + 5.6% Finnish @ 2.67
9 94.5% Irish + 5.5% La_Brana-1 @ 2.68
10 93.4% Irish + 6.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.72
11 95.3% Irish + 4.7% East_Finnish @ 2.72
12 76.2% Irish + 23.8% North_German @ 2.72
13 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% North_German @ 2.74
14 96.7% Irish + 3.3% Chuvash @ 2.74
15 84.2% West_Scottish + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 2.75
16 65.5% Irish + 34.5% Danish @ 2.75
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% Finnish @ 2.77
18 97.1% Irish + 2.9% Mari @ 2.78
19 95.4% Irish + 4.6% Estonian @ 2.79
20 96.4% Irish + 3.6% Erzya @ 2.8

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 29.09
2 NorthEastEuropean 27.18
3 Steppe 23.58
4 Caucasian 18.22
5 Indian 1.93

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) 1.97
2 Scottish (Highlands) 2.36
3 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 2.52
4 Irish (Connacht) 2.53
5 English (England) 2.64
6 Irish (Munster) 2.68
7 Scottish (Fife) 2.74
8 Scottish (Grampian) 2.81
9 Irish (Ulster) 2.83
10 English (Cornwall) 2.86
11 French (WestFrance) 2.87
12 Irish (Leinster) 2.92
13 Irish (Cork_Kerry) 2.93
14 Scottish (Borders) 2.96
15 English (Kent) 3.21
16 Dutch (Netherlands) 3.64
17 Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) 4.41
18 Scottish (Argyll_bute) 4.46
19 Welsh (Wales) 4.95
20 German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) 5.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 86.8% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 13.2% German (Germany) @ 1.79
2 57.3% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) + 42.7% German (Germany) @ 1.86
3 71.5% English (Kent) + 28.5% Pole (EastPoland) @ 1.86
4 82% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 18% English (Kent) @ 1.88
5 91.8% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 8.2% French (France) @ 1.9
6 97.2% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 2.8% Italian (Bergamo) @ 1.91
7 57% Scottish (Argyll_bute) + 43% German (Germany) @ 1.91
8 59.4% English (Cornwall) + 40.6% Dutch (Netherlands) @ 1.91
9 98.8% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 1.2% Sardinian (Sardinia) @ 1.92
10 82.1% English (Kent) + 17.9% Cossack (Zaporozhie) @ 1.93
11 50.5% German (Germany) + 49.5% Icelandic (Iceland) @ 1.94
12 97.8% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 2.2% Spanish (Baleares) @ 1.94
13 98.4% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 1.6% Kosovar (Kosovo) @ 1.94
14 98% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 2% Macedonian (Macedonia) @ 1.94
15 98.6% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 1.4% Greek (Thessaloniki) @ 1.94
16 99.5% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 0.5% Turk (Trabzon) @ 1.95
17 98.7% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 1.3% Albanian (Albania) @ 1.95
18 97.9% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 2.1% Serbian (Serbia) @ 1.95
19 86.9% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 13.1% English (England) @ 1.95
20 65.2% English (Kent) + 34.8% German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) @ 1.95

[Sikeliot]

Seems like Connacht and Leinster shift toward Britain and Ulster/Munster are more isolated from it. This likely means that most migrations into Ireland from Britain or the continent, other than the Planters, swept through Leinster and across the middle of the island, but didn't go too far south.

[Grace O'Malley]

Seems like Connacht and Leinster shift toward Britain and Ulster/Munster are more isolated from it. This likely means that most migrations into Ireland from Britain or the continent, other than the Planters, swept through Leinster and across the middle of the island, but didn't go too far south.

There were definitely migrations into Munster e.g. Limerick and Cork were Viking towns and also Munster had a lot of Normans. I think Connacht might have been affected by proximity to Ulster with Scot incursions. There are quite a few Scots names in Connacht families.

Anyway these things are very finescale and no parts of Ireland were particularly isolated just some regions have more a shift.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/12/08/230797.DC1/230797-8.pdf
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/12/08/230797.DC1/230797-7.pdf

[Sikeliot]

There were definitely migrations into Munster e.g. Limerick and Cork were Viking towns and also Munster had a lot of Normans. I think Connacht might have been affected by proximity to Ulster with Scot incursions. There are quite a few Scots names in Connacht families.

This is what I think too. While Scots are in between Ireland and England genetically, Scottish admixture would definitely shift Connacht toward Britain as a whole and away from "pure" (should such a thing exist) Irish people.

The question is which parts of south Munster are the ones with the oldest Irish genes? And where does Ulster with its Catholic population fit into this, as we determined they too did comparatively less mixing? Why would Connacht have more than Ulster?

It is also incredible to me that Connacht and Leinster are similar, which seems like differences in Ireland are latitudinal north/south, not east/west.

[Sikeliot]

Also Wexford has a strong affinity toward SE England. I wonder why this is.

[Graham]

Anyway this explains my Norse affinity on Gedmatch. The calculators are not too inaccurate.


that K15 you posted. I guess you can see how it drifts to West Norway. Though no calculator is up to date really.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/2wpt7jd.jpg

[Token]

Anyway this explains my Norse affinity on Gedmatch. The calculators are not too inaccurate.

I have read the study and they estipulate a upper average of 20% Norwegian contribution in more heavily settled areas so this doesn't really explain why almost half of your genome seems to be Norwegian-like.

[Grace O'Malley]

I have read the study and they estipulate a upper average of 20% Norwegian contribution in more heavily settled areas so this doesn't really explain why almost half of your genome seems to be Norwegian-like.

They are Gedmatch calcs so not the same as a scientific study like this one. I have a pull towards Orcadian which makes sense now with Orcadians being on the same branch as the Irish.

https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-17124-4/MediaObjects/41598_2017_17124_Fig1_HTML.jpg

This doesn't mean that the Irish are exactly like the Orcadians and this is what the study says.

We observe that the majority of our Irish individuals are found on one, ‘Gaelic’ Irish branch, which is grouped with the Orcadian branch. This grouping is likely due to the similar (but separate) genetic distances from Ireland and Orkney to the rest of the British populations, which fineStructure’s tree building algorithm interprets by branching together. Both Ireland and Orkney share elevated levels of Norwegian-related ancestry, which could provide an alternative explanation for this grouping. However our PCA suggests no large scale gene flow between the two populations.

[Graham]

Its a shame that they havent done more of scotland, as we are historically more divided than the irish, welsh and english in our clan, feudal history . NOrth East Lowland Scotland is more fishing and is different to the highlands next door. Central Scotland is a blackhole at the moment. No Perthshire. No Shetland, no east lothian etc...

[Grace O'Malley]

Its a shame that they havent done more of scotland, as we are historically more divided than the irish, welsh and english in our clan, feudal history . NOrth East Lowland Scotland is more fishing and is different to the highlands next door. Central Scotland is a blackhole at the moment. No Perthshire. No Shetland, no east lothian etc...

Some of the people involved in the PoBI were involved in the IDA as well e.g. Walter Bodmer. The IDA is still ongoing and they are still wanting people for certain areas. Possibly they will do more areas in Scotland.

They mentioned this in the IDA.

The PoBI dataset’s restricted Scottish coverage, which is largely northern Aberdeenshire and the south of Scotland, means we can only describe Scotland with regards to those regions. It would be interesting, therefore, to expand the Scottish sample further to investigate genetic links between Ireland and the rest of Scotland, particularly the Hebrides.

[Graham]

Some of the people involved in the PoBI were involved in the IDA as well e.g. Walter Bodmer. The IDA is still ongoing and they are still wanting people for certain areas. Possibly they will do more areas in Scotland.

They mentioned this in the IDA.

The PoBI dataset’s restricted Scottish coverage, which is largely northern Aberdeenshire and the south of Scotland, means we can only describe Scotland with regards to those regions. It would be interesting, therefore, to expand the Scottish sample further to investigate genetic links between Ireland and the rest of Scotland, particularly the Hebrides.
Suppose may take on this map loosely in end in my opinion. with a few bits and bobs missed.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/25397547_10155970551915421_1172817802_o.png?oh=a54 1192c0f0baedfa9a6dd7f65ef78c8&oe=5A335862

[Grace O'Malley]

Suppose may take on this map loosely in end in my opinion. with a few bits and bobs missed.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/25397547_10155970551915421_1172817802_o.png?oh=a54 1192c0f0baedfa9a6dd7f65ef78c8&oe=5A335862

I wouldn't be surprised if they sample more Scottish. I guess it all comes down to funding but they are still increasing their Irish database (IDA) so I would hope areas like the Hebrides are sampled.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's an update on the Irish DNA Atlas which is an ongoing project and also including the Scottish & the Islands project.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=qKXIiyQJTJY&feature=emb_title

[Grace O'Malley]

This plot I find interesting. Cornwall and England down the bottom and Ireland off the southwest of Scotland.

https://i.imgur.com/BdjncdJ.png

[RyoHazuki]

This plot I find interesting. Cornwall and England down the bottom and Ireland off the southwest of Scotland.

https://i.imgur.com/BdjncdJ.png

Its near perfectly reflected by geography. There's a big gap between the Northernmost (shetland) and Southernmost (Cornish)

[Grace O'Malley]

The earlier figure of Norwegian ancestry in Ireland was incorrect because they were measuring this ancestry without accounting for England/Scottish admixture in Ireland. They will look at this again when they have more ancient genomes. Cool!

They used a new program call SOURCEFIND

To get these updated results they modelled them as a mixture between other British sources and Norwegian, Danish and Swedish populations. Ireland looks like it has a very high amount of English ancestry but that's a artefact of how this was modelled. You can't model a population against itself.

Not surprisingly Shetland has the most, then Orkney, then Ireland and then mainland Scotland. Ireland only about 5% with this method. Will run again when they have more Norse Vikings and Dark Ages Britons.

https://i.imgur.com/5jRigTh.png

https://i.imgur.com/2ZuJozl.png

Here's a clearer picture of the admixture results.

https://i.imgur.com/MAPpyza.png

[Joso]

Possibly Norwegian similarity could be due to the Bronze Age (where does this leave the Atlantic Facade? :)). I guess we will have to wait until February when the findings are discussed in more detail but that the admixture event has been marked to the time of the Viking invasions of Ireland so it is kind of implied here . They also pinpointed the admixture in Northern Ireland to the Plantations in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Anyway I'm sure no one is surprised at the Irish similarity to Bretons? This has been documented before.

I hope more people will comment. I'll add more information in the coming weeks.

In Atapuerca ;)

[Grace O'Malley]

This is a better image of the Irish/British cluster.

https://i.imgur.com/Z9lAi1q.png

[Grace O'Malley]

https://i.imgur.com/DD0RaIT.png

They compared the ancient Gaels in Iceland to each of the modern genetic regions of Ireland and Britain to see which of these regions do these ancient Gaels share most genetic affinity. On the diagram above the warmer the colour the greater the affinity.

You can see they don't share a lot of affinity with the south of England. The areas they show the greatest affinity to are these Western peripheral populations of either Scotland or Ireland. It aligns well because those were the regions predominantly raided by the Norse Vikings.

He touched on the fact that ancient dna is always going to be best to measure these things instead of modern populations so we will just have to wait.

The results of this analysis shows that those peripheral populations to the west and north of either Scotland or Ireland seems to have the greatest affinity towards the Gaelic settlers sampled in the Icelandic study.

This could mean that those Gaels are from those regions although that would assume that the entirety of the genetic landscape of Britain and Ireland hasn't changed at all since about 1000 AD and we know it has, i.e. Industrial Revolution which moved a lot of people around and many events in between. Or that these peripheral populations are just a little bit more isolated and haven't been affected by migrations since the Norse Viking period so they have retained a greater affinity to that historical snapshot that was captured by this ancient dna. It's probably a mixture of both of these and maybe a couple of other explanations.

Comments mostly taken from this video.

[RyoHazuki]

This is a better image of the Irish/British cluster.

https://i.imgur.com/Z9lAi1q.png

Looking at this, I bet I have part Scottish Highlander ancestry, considering my R1b subclade and I get considerable north Germanic input on G25.

Distance: 2.1184% / 0.02118442
52.0 GERMANI
31.2 BRITANNICI
9.4 VASCONES
3.8 MAURI
2.4 SYRIA
1.2 OSTROGOTHA

Distance: 2.3060% / 0.02306006
61.0 Early_Germanic
26.0 Italic
7.4 Iberian
5.4 Central_Asia_Iranic
0.2 Berber

Distance: 2.5818% / 0.02581788
62.8 CELTIC-NORTHWEST
19.6 NORDIC
10.6 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST
6.4 LEVANTINE
0.4 IBERIAN
0.2 SOUTH-AFRICA

Distance: 1.5486% / 0.01548592
38.6 British_Isles
38.0 Scandinavia
9.8 Southwest_Euro
4.2 Balkan
3.6 Western_Euro
3.0 Levant
1.4 Central_Euro
1.0 Subsaharan_Africa
0.4 North_Africa

Sadly I've found 0 Scottish and Irish surnames in my family.

[Grace O'Malley]

https://i.imgur.com/r3CIDFL.png

This project is ongoing. They are now interested in the rare genetic variants. They will now be investigating rare genetic variation and see what use that is to investigation of the demographic processes that have shaped the Irish geno. They will also be using the Irish DNA Atlas with other different projects as well.

[Grace O'Malley]

Looking at this, I bet I have part Scottish Highlander ancestry, considering my R1b subclade and I get considerable north Germanic input on G25.

Distance: 2.1184% / 0.02118442
52.0 GERMANI
31.2 BRITANNICI
9.4 VASCONES
3.8 MAURI
2.4 SYRIA
1.2 OSTROGOTHA

Distance: 2.3060% / 0.02306006
61.0 Early_Germanic
26.0 Italic
7.4 Iberian
5.4 Central_Asia_Iranic
0.2 Berber

Distance: 2.5818% / 0.02581788
62.8 CELTIC-NORTHWEST
19.6 NORDIC
10.6 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST
6.4 LEVANTINE
0.4 IBERIAN
0.2 SOUTH-AFRICA

Distance: 1.5486% / 0.01548592
38.6 British_Isles
38.0 Scandinavia
9.8 Southwest_Euro
4.2 Balkan
3.6 Western_Euro
3.0 Levant
1.4 Central_Euro
1.0 Subsaharan_Africa
0.4 North_Africa

Sadly I've found 0 Scottish and Irish surnames in my family.

I get Scottish Highlands in my British regions on 23&Me. I could possibly have some Highland ancestry if looking at surnames but I think Ancestry is better with their GC communities although all these tests are limited when trying to gauge ancestry further back than about 6 generations.

I think all Isles people get a lot of Scandinavian etc on G25. I think the only way to get an accurate picture is using ancient dna.

[RyoHazuki]

I get Scottish Highlands in my British regions on 23&Me. I could possibly have some Highland ancestry if looking at surnames but I think Ancestry is better with their GC communities although all these tests are limited when trying to gauge ancestry further back than about 6 generations.

I think all Isles people get a lot of Scandinavian etc on G25. I think the only way to get an accurate picture is using ancient dna.

What's your 23andme result? I get short of 1/8 Scandinavian.

https://i.imgur.com/ymNLJ6X_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[Grace O'Malley]

I get Scottish Highlands in my British regions on 23&Me. I could possibly have some Highland ancestry if looking at surnames but I think Ancestry is better with their GC communities although all these tests are limited when trying to gauge ancestry further back than about 6 generations.

I think all Isles people get a lot of Scandinavian etc on G25. I think the only way to get an accurate picture is using ancient dna.

This is my Ancestry result and the GC communities are much more accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/LT4yXQ4.png

I don't get any Scandinavian which isn't surprising because all my recent ancestry is Irish. I think modern dna tests are good for getting your main ancestry correct. Their algorithms are still not correct but with time hopefully that will improve. I think Ancestry's GCs are very good.

[Grace O'Malley]

https://i.imgur.com/3rhMJgn.png

Each dot represents one individual, (used 2,000 Irish individuals). Obviously people more genetically related cluster closest to each other and less related cluster further away. The grey dots control individuals and coloured dots Irish DNA individuals. Top left hand side (north) Donegal and right (south) at the end is Kerry individuals. Also top is west and the bottom is east who show more British ancestry (includes northeast of Ireland). (This all goes well with history as well).

When plotted on a map of Ireland using the colour coordinated scheme this is where they end up.

https://i.imgur.com/ZdKNpqi.png

[Grace O'Malley]

https://i.imgur.com/7kgZBRu.png

Green (Wales), Red (England), Dark Blue (Northeast Scotland), Light Blue (Southwest Scotland), Yellow (Ireland), Orange (The Hebrides), Purple (The Northern Isles - Orkney & Shetland). The separation of the Northern Isles are due to isolation as not a lot of immigration to these isles. While the clusters are genetically distinct they are not separated away from each other, they are interconnected.

[RyoHazuki]

This is my Ancestry result and the GC communities are much more accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/LT4yXQ4.png

I don't get any Scandinavian which isn't surprising because all my recent ancestry is Irish. I think modern dna tests are good for getting your main ancestry correct. Their algorithms are still not correct but with time hopefully that will improve. I think Ancestry's GCs are very good.

GC?

[Grace O'Malley]

GC?

Genetic Communities. They are very accurate at Ancestry. This is what MyHeritage is trying to also do with their Global Families. This is my daughter's Ancestry and it is very accurate with her GCs also.

https://i.imgur.com/G4QIEFE.png

It will be interesting see what Family Tree's update looks like and also MyHeritage when they roll these out.

[RyoHazuki]

Genetic Communities. They are very accurate at Ancestry. This is what MyHeritage is trying to also do with their Global Families. This is my daughter's Ancestry and it is very accurate with her GCs also.

https://i.imgur.com/G4QIEFE.png

It will be interesting see what Family Tree's update looks like and also MyHeritage when they roll these out.

23andme has been dead as of late, which sucks because it'd be great if they gave another update. IBD matching with regions has worked for me.

[J. Ketch]

The earlier figure of Norwegian ancestry in Ireland was incorrect because they were measuring this ancestry without accounting for England/Scottish admixture in Ireland. They will look at this again when they have more ancient genomes. Cool!

They used a new program call SOURCEFIND

To get these updated results they modelled them as a mixture between other British sources and Norwegian, Danish and Swedish populations. Ireland looks like it has a very high amount of English ancestry but that's a artefact of how this was modelled. You can't model a population against itself.

Not surprisingly Shetland has the most, then Orkney, then Ireland and then mainland Scotland. Ireland only about 5% with this method. Will run again when they have more Norse Vikings and Dark Ages Britons.

https://i.imgur.com/5jRigTh.png

https://i.imgur.com/2ZuJozl.png

Here's a clearer picture of the admixture results.

https://i.imgur.com/MAPpyza.png
I can't help but feel they make it a lot more confusing than it should be.

[Grace O'Malley]

I can't help but feel they make it a lot more confusing than it should be.

It is a bit confusing. I think they are trying to do the best they can without having ancient genomes to test against. I'm hoping Lara Cassidy's papers will be able to help with some of this as she has access to a lot more ancient genomes because she is part of Prof Dan Bradley's team who have a large amount.

[J. Ketch]

It is a bit confusing. I think they are trying to do the best they can without having ancient genomes to test against. I'm hoping Lara Cassidy's papers will be able to help with some of this as she has access to a lot more ancient genomes because she is part of Prof Dan Bradley's team who have a large amount.
I think it's quite pointless testing against other modern British Isles populations, and the results are all over the place.

In truth I've yet to see an analysis of the recent ancestral makeup of Britain or Ireland that I'm very impressed by. There's a lot of misinformation, vagueness and questionable interpretations in many of the analyses done so far.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think it's quite pointless testing against other modern British Isles populations, and the results are all over the place.

In truth I've yet to see an analysis of the recent ancestral makeup of Britain or Ireland that I'm very impressed by. There's a lot of misinformation, vagueness and questionable interpretations in many of the analyses done so far.

I think using modern populations is not going to give accurate results. Even Dr Gilbert said that the best way would be to use ancient genomes and that's what he would have preferred but until they become available they just have to wait. Obviously some labs have more ancient genomes at their disposal and these will be available once their studies are published. It will most probably be another couple of years until there are the samples needed to be able to get a more accurate picture.

[J. Ketch]

If not for the relatively low Germanic Y-DNA in Ireland I would think the Germanic admixture there was quite significant, it's hard to believe how you Grace and my father can be so Nordic shifted without it. Some of his results:

K13 Original


# Population (source) Distance
1 Danish 3.5
2 North_Dutch 3.57
3 Norwegian 3.68
4 Orcadian 3.83
5 West_Scottish 3.9
6 Irish 4.08
7 Southeast_English 5.62
8 Southwest_English 6.26
9 North_German 6.37
10 Swedish 6.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.8% Norwegian + 47.2% West_Scottish @ 2.6
2 56.6% Danish + 43.4% West_Scottish @ 2.83
3 68.9% West_Scottish + 31.1% Swedish @ 2.87
4 52.6% Norwegian + 47.4% Orcadian @ 2.96
5 83.1% West_Scottish + 16.9% North_Swedish @ 2.98
6 71.9% Norwegian + 28.1% Southwest_English @ 2.98
7 56.5% Norwegian + 43.5% Irish @ 3
8 69.3% Norwegian + 30.7% Southeast_English @ 3.02
9 89.9% West_Scottish + 10.1% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.12
10 91.9% West_Scottish + 8.1% La_Brana-1 @ 3.12


K13 Updated vahaduo

Distance to: CreodaDad
3.05722096 North-Dutch
4.15204769 Norwegian
4.24338308 Orcadian
4.34893090 West_Scottish
4.57659262 Irish
5.07071001 Scottish
5.92480379 English
6.17399385 Danish
6.30933435 Southeast_English
6.96304531 Southwest_English

Target: CreodaDad
Distance: 2.8306% / 2.83061020
41.6 North-Dutch
32.6 West_Scottish
25.8 Norwegian


Gaelic vs Norse Icelanders G25

Target: CreodaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.7907% / 0.02790684
72.2 ISL_Viking_Age_Gaelic
24.8 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
3.0 ISL_Viking_Age_mixed

Target: CreodaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.7910% / 0.02791013
73.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Gaelic
26.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse

Target: CroedaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.4426% / 0.02442615
51.4 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicORE-A1
31.4 ISL_Viking_Age_NorseDAV-A9
17.2 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicSSG-A4

Target: CreodaDad
Distance: 1.5976% / 0.01597635
67.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Gaelic
32.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse

Target: CreodaDad
Distance: 1.5976% / 0.01597635
60.4 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicORE-A1
32.6 ISL_Viking_Age_NorseDAV-A9
7.0 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicSSG-A4


https://i.postimg.cc/LXbW14BV/SCOT-lba.png

K36 PCA
https://i.postimg.cc/tJZDzSNV/k36dad.jpg

The only other conclusion to draw is that Ireland is largely untouched since the Bronze Age, which makes the Celtic question more mysterious.

[Grace O'Malley]

If not for the relatively low Germanic Y-DNA in Ireland I would think the Germanic admixture there was quite significant, it's hard to believe how you Grace and my father can be so Nordic shifted without it. Some of his results:

K13 Original


# Population (source) Distance
1 Danish 3.5
2 North_Dutch 3.57
3 Norwegian 3.68
4 Orcadian 3.83
5 West_Scottish 3.9
6 Irish 4.08
7 Southeast_English 5.62
8 Southwest_English 6.26
9 North_German 6.37
10 Swedish 6.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.8% Norwegian + 47.2% West_Scottish @ 2.6
2 56.6% Danish + 43.4% West_Scottish @ 2.83
3 68.9% West_Scottish + 31.1% Swedish @ 2.87
4 52.6% Norwegian + 47.4% Orcadian @ 2.96
5 83.1% West_Scottish + 16.9% North_Swedish @ 2.98
6 71.9% Norwegian + 28.1% Southwest_English @ 2.98
7 56.5% Norwegian + 43.5% Irish @ 3
8 69.3% Norwegian + 30.7% Southeast_English @ 3.02
9 89.9% West_Scottish + 10.1% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.12
10 91.9% West_Scottish + 8.1% La_Brana-1 @ 3.12


K13 Updated vahaduo

Distance to: CreodaDad
3.05722096 North-Dutch
4.15204769 Norwegian
4.24338308 Orcadian
4.34893090 West_Scottish
4.57659262 Irish
5.07071001 Scottish
5.92480379 English
6.17399385 Danish
6.30933435 Southeast_English
6.96304531 Southwest_English

Target: CreodaDad
Distance: 2.8306% / 2.83061020
41.6 North-Dutch
32.6 West_Scottish
25.8 Norwegian


Gaelic vs Norse Icelanders G25

Target: CreodaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.7907% / 0.02790684
72.2 ISL_Viking_Age_Gaelic
24.8 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
3.0 ISL_Viking_Age_mixed

Target: CreodaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.7910% / 0.02791013
73.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Gaelic
26.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse

Target: CroedaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.4426% / 0.02442615
51.4 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicORE-A1
31.4 ISL_Viking_Age_NorseDAV-A9
17.2 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicSSG-A4

Target: CreodaDad
Distance: 1.5976% / 0.01597635
67.4 ISL_Viking_Age_Gaelic
32.6 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse

Target: CreodaDad
Distance: 1.5976% / 0.01597635
60.4 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicORE-A1
32.6 ISL_Viking_Age_NorseDAV-A9
7.0 ISL_Viking_Age_GaelicSSG-A4


https://i.postimg.cc/LXbW14BV/SCOT-lba.png

K36 PCA
https://i.postimg.cc/tJZDzSNV/k36dad.jpg

The only other conclusion to draw is that Ireland is largely untouched since the Bronze Age, which makes the Celtic question more mysterious.

It's a bit of a puzzle for people. I really think that Irish and other British have always been very North shifted anyway. Well since the Bronze Age. I wouldn't be surprised if dna studies did show that places like Ireland haven't had much admixture since the Bronze Age possibly not a great amount anyway. With some studies coming out over the next few years it should really help with answering this puzzle.

A very knowledgeable person was at one of Lara Cassidy's talks last year and they were specifically talking about the genomes found in Roscommon and this person said that there was a noticeable shift in the late medieval period which they said was related to Norman incursions. These talks are not being released to the public because they want to keep things under wraps until they publish. This wouldn't be part of Lara Cassidy's paper that will come out in May but will be part of a second paper so that could be a couple of years or more away from publishing but I think people would find that very interesting.

I wonder how different Normans would be to earlier Irish? Anyway it's all just snippets that comes out from these talks so unless we have the papers it's difficult to know how accurate it is.

Anyway I think people used to think that Irish were somehow not originally from their area and that they all came from somewhere else. This has now been shown to be completely inaccurate. The Irish have in the majority been in Ireland since the Bronze Age and are a northern population genetically. You still see a lot of rubbish written about the Irish.

[Jana]

What if Normans were genetically more southern than Irish? They could have gotten some French influence after all before raiding British Isles.

[Coastal Elite]

Normans had influence up and down Ireland. Some people in my family tree have Hiberno-Norman surnames, Burke being my favorite of the Hiberno-Norman surnames that I'm familiar although not in my family tree.


Barrett
Bennett
Blake, from de Blaca
Blanchfield, from De Blancheville
Bodkin
Browne, from de Brún
Burke, also the variants Bourke, de Búrc, de Búrca and de Burge
Butler
Curtis
D'Alton
D'Arcy, also the variant De Arcy
de Barry
de Cogan (Seen now as Goggin)
de Clare
Candon, Condon, from de Caunteton[citation needed]
Colbert
Costello
Cusack, also the variant de Cussac (from Gascony Bordeaux region of France)
de Lacy
Delaney
Dillon, from de Leon
Devereaux
Deane, from de Denne
English
Fagan
Fanning
Fay, from de Fae
Finglas
FitzGerald
FitzGibbons
Fitzhenry, also the variant Fitzharris
Fitzmaurice, also the variant Fitzmorris
FitzRalph
Fitzrichard
FitzRoy
Fitzsimons/Fitzsimon
Fitzstephen
FitzWilliam
French (de Freigne; de Freyne; ffrench - one of the 14 tribes of Galway)
Gault (from Gualtier)
Grace
Hussey (From Houssaye in Seine-Maritime region in Normandy.) Also the variant O'Hosey, Oswell and others
Hand
Harpur
Joyce
Jordan
Kilcoyne, derived from the original Gaelic "O Cadhain", emerged in Norman Galway.
Laughles (later Lawless)
Lambart (There is a possible kinship between the Lambarts and Lamberts)
Lambert, also the variant Lamport. Most notably John Lambert of Creg Clare
le Gros or later translation, "le Gras" (anglicized "Grace").
Lovett, from Anglo-Norman French "lo(u)vet" meaning "wolf cub" or "young wolf"
Malet [11]
Mansell, from Le Mans, France
Marmion
Marren
Martyn, also the variant Martin
Mansfield
Mac Eoin Bissett
Mee (Anglicized form of Le Mée: habitational name from (Le) Mée in Mayenne, Eure-et-Loir, and Seine-et-Marne) [12]
Mohan (early descendant)
Nagle
Nangle
Nicolas, Nicola
Nugent
Payne
Peppard
Perrin, Perrinne
Petit, Petitt, Pettit
Plunkett
Power (le Poer)[citation needed]
Prendergast[citation needed]
Preston[citation needed]
Redmond
de Tiúit/Tuite
Roach (Derived from Roche)
Roche (Derived from de Rupe or de la Roche)
Rossiter (other form to write Rosseter, Rossitur, Raucester, Rawcester, Rochester)
Russell (Derived from a French term for a red-haired individual.)
Sallenger, Sallinger, from St. Leger
Savage
Seagrave, Segrave
Shortall
Sinnott[citation needed]
Stack
Taaffe
Talbot/Talbott
Testard
Tyrrell or Tyrell
Tobin

[J. Ketch]

It's a bit of a puzzle for people. I really think that Irish and other British have always been very North shifted anyway. Well since the Bronze Age. I wouldn't be surprised if dna studies did show that places like Ireland haven't had much admixture since the Bronze Age possibly not a great amount anyway. With some studies coming out over the next few years it should really help with answering this puzzle.

A very knowledgeable person was at one of Lara Cassidy's talks last year and they were specifically talking about the genomes found in Roscommon and this person said that there was a noticeable shift in the late medieval period which they said was related to Norman incursions. These talks are not being released to the public because they want to keep things under wraps until they publish. This wouldn't be part of Lara Cassidy's paper that will come out in May but will be part of a second paper so that could be a couple of years or more away from publishing but I think people would find that very interesting.

I wonder how different Normans would be to earlier Irish? Anyway it's all just snippets that comes out from these talks so unless we have the papers it's difficult to know how accurate it is.

Anyway I think people used to think that Irish were somehow not originally from their area and that they all came from somewhere else. This has now been shown to be completely inaccurate. The Irish have in the majority been in Ireland since the Bronze Age and are a northern population genetically. You still see a lot of rubbish written about the Irish.
The prospect that Normans had a significant genetic impact in Ireland is fascinating, however even if they did have an unexpectedly large influence, by the time the Anglo-Normans reached Ireland you wouldn't expect them to be different enough to the Irish to make a serious difference one way or the other, if you know what I mean.

The genetic division of Ireland is pretty interesting if a lot less studied and clear cut than Britain, I'm curious why Central Ireland where my dad's from clusters with coastal Leinster and Connacht, and isn't more 'insular' like SW Munster and Ulster. I'm a bit ignorant on the history. I have no idea what that can be attributed to, Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, or a lack of any of those factors.

[J. Ketch]

Normans had influence up and down Ireland. People in my family tree have Hiberno-Norman surnames, Burke being my favorite.
I think you may be related to someone on the forum.

[Jana]

I think you may be related to someone on the forum.

Heheheh.

[Coastal Elite]

I think you may be related to someone on the forum.

Please, explain.

[PaleoEuropean]

I wanted to add that Danish dna is similar to Anglo-Saxon dna which explains why the PoBI had difficulties in detecting Viking input into Britain excepting places like the Orkneys and Western Isles (Norwegian admixture detected). Norwegian dna is more distinct.

Here is a breakdown from the PoBI.

http://i63.tinypic.com/x537tu.jpg

I have to acknowledge contributors from Anthrogenica for this information.

Very true. My closest population is SW England and most my Family is Scottish or Northern English.

[Grace O'Malley]

Normans had influence up and down Ireland. Some people in my family tree have Hiberno-Norman surnames, Burke being my favorite of the Hiberno-Norman surnames that I'm familiar although not in my family tree.


Barrett
Bennett
Blake, from de Blaca
Blanchfield, from De Blancheville
Bodkin
Browne, from de Brún
Burke, also the variants Bourke, de Búrc, de Búrca and de Burge
Butler
Curtis
D'Alton
D'Arcy, also the variant De Arcy
de Barry
de Cogan (Seen now as Goggin)
de Clare
Candon, Condon, from de Caunteton[citation needed]
Colbert
Costello
Cusack, also the variant de Cussac (from Gascony Bordeaux region of France)
de Lacy
Delaney
Dillon, from de Leon
Devereaux
Deane, from de Denne
English
Fagan
Fanning
Fay, from de Fae
Finglas
FitzGerald
FitzGibbons
Fitzhenry, also the variant Fitzharris
Fitzmaurice, also the variant Fitzmorris
FitzRalph
Fitzrichard
FitzRoy
Fitzsimons/Fitzsimon
Fitzstephen
FitzWilliam
French (de Freigne; de Freyne; ffrench - one of the 14 tribes of Galway)
Gault (from Gualtier)
Grace
Hussey (From Houssaye in Seine-Maritime region in Normandy.) Also the variant O'Hosey, Oswell and others
Hand
Harpur
Joyce
Jordan
Kilcoyne, derived from the original Gaelic "O Cadhain", emerged in Norman Galway.
Laughles (later Lawless)
Lambart (There is a possible kinship between the Lambarts and Lamberts)
Lambert, also the variant Lamport. Most notably John Lambert of Creg Clare
le Gros or later translation, "le Gras" (anglicized "Grace").
Lovett, from Anglo-Norman French "lo(u)vet" meaning "wolf cub" or "young wolf"
Malet [11]
Mansell, from Le Mans, France
Marmion
Marren
Martyn, also the variant Martin
Mansfield
Mac Eoin Bissett
Mee (Anglicized form of Le Mée: habitational name from (Le) Mée in Mayenne, Eure-et-Loir, and Seine-et-Marne) [12]
Mohan (early descendant)
Nagle
Nangle
Nicolas, Nicola
Nugent
Payne
Peppard
Perrin, Perrinne
Petit, Petitt, Pettit
Plunkett
Power (le Poer)[citation needed]
Prendergast[citation needed]
Preston[citation needed]
Redmond
de Tiúit/Tuite
Roach (Derived from Roche)
Roche (Derived from de Rupe or de la Roche)
Rossiter (other form to write Rosseter, Rossitur, Raucester, Rawcester, Rochester)
Russell (Derived from a French term for a red-haired individual.)
Sallenger, Sallinger, from St. Leger
Savage
Seagrave, Segrave
Shortall
Sinnott[citation needed]
Stack
Taaffe
Talbot/Talbott
Testard
Tyrrell or Tyrell
Tobin

I don't think there is any Irish family that doesn't have a Norman name or 2 in their family tree. Norman surnames are that ubiquitous. I think about 1/12 of Irish surnames are of Norman origin.

[Grace O'Malley]

The prospect that Normans had a significant genetic impact in Ireland is fascinating, however even if they did have an unexpectedly large influence, by the time the Anglo-Normans reached Ireland you wouldn't expect them to be different enough to the Irish to make a serious difference one way or the other, if you know what I mean.

The genetic division of Ireland is pretty interesting if a lot less studied and clear cut than Britain, I'm curious why Central Ireland where my dad's from clusters with coastal Leinster and Connacht, and isn't more 'insular' like SW Munster and Ulster. I'm a bit ignorant on the history. I have no idea what that can be attributed to, Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, or a lack of any of those factors.

I was surprised when Normans were mentioned also. The Normans that came to Ireland had spend 100 years in Britain and before that would have had quite a bit of French input. I will see if I can find the quote.

From looking at Ancestry with my GCs that are related to Connacht are listed under Central Ireland with 2 further breakdowns Roscommon and the second one North Leinster and East Connacht. I always considered Roscommon as West Ireland but it most probably is more Central West and could possibly be considered a midland country.

I can understand Donegal being a bit of an outlier but I think Connacht did get quite a few Normans.

Here's a podcast which I haven't listened to myself but I will after this post.

https://irishhistorypodcast.ie/the-norman-conquest-of-connacht/

There was quite a few powerful Norman families in control of Connacht.

https://www.historyireland.com/medieval-history-pre-1500/normans-natives-in-medieval-connacht/

Not sure where your Dad is from exactly but there was quite a few British Army barracks throughout Ireland.

http://www.from-ireland.net/stations-british-army-oct-1845/

All those invaders i.e. Vikings, Normans, British went everywhere in Ireland so it is difficult to gauge what sort of impact they had on the native Irish. There was also a lot of Gallowglass were retained by Irish Chieftains.

[J. Ketch]

I don't have a Norman surname on my Irish side that I know of. One of my Irish Great Grandparents surnames was English and one was Welsh though, another one a generation back I'm just reading now is of English origin (Stapleton) that I only associated with Ireland for some reason, probably because of the 80s Irish footballer Frank Stapleton.

[Grace O'Malley]

The prospect that Normans had a significant genetic impact in Ireland is fascinating, however even if they did have an unexpectedly large influence, by the time the Anglo-Normans reached Ireland you wouldn't expect them to be different enough to the Irish to make a serious difference one way or the other, if you know what I mean.

The genetic division of Ireland is pretty interesting if a lot less studied and clear cut than Britain, I'm curious why Central Ireland where my dad's from clusters with coastal Leinster and Connacht, and isn't more 'insular' like SW Munster and Ulster. I'm a bit ignorant on the history. I have no idea what that can be attributed to, Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, or a lack of any of those factors.

Regarding Central Ireland I remember reading John Relethford's book years ago about the genetics of Ireland but it would be very outdated now. It was called Reflections of Our Past: How Human History is Revealed in Our Genes. He felt that the Irish Midlands had Viking influence and I can't remember what he used to deduce this unfortunately. He believed they retained more of these older genes due somewhat to isolation. Vikings also sailed up the Shannon from Galway Bay into the Irish midlands. There was a Viking headquarters at Lough Ree which my father used to talk about.

There are snippets of that book available online but you would have to purchase the book to read it all. I think it would be outdated now.

https://i.imgur.com/nv93Vzi.png

None of this will be properly measured until a study with ancient genomes is done.

[Grace O'Malley]

Much of Lara Cassidy's talk is under an embargo but I think this quote from someone who attended one of her talks is okay to post.

"One of the things that was talked about was signs of increasing admixture during the course of later medieval period. Reflective of course of the Norman invasion of Connacht in the 1250's...Aside from aDNA analysis there is full C-14 and Isotopic and Osteographic analysis been carried out. "

Very interesting.

[Coastal Elite]

I don't think there is any Irish family that doesn't have a Norman name or 2 in their family tree. Norman surnames are that ubiquitous. I think about 1/12 of Irish surnames are of Norman origin.

The few Norman names in my family tree are more distant. Unless one is familiar with the Hiberno-Norman surnames, they sound like pretty typical Irish or English names. Bulter, Burke, Fitzsimons. Lambert is an interesting one because it can be a French, English, or Irish surname.

[Albannach]

My Mum from the Galway Gaeltacht has a Cambro-Norman maiden name, not sure if they are more Cambro or more Norman though.

They were referred to as the "Welshmen of Tirawley".

[Grace O'Malley]

My Mum from the Galway Gaeltacht has a Cambro-Norman maiden name, not sure if they are more Cambro or more Norman though.

They were referred to as the "Welshmen of Tirawley".

I'm sure most people know that the surname Walsh means a Welshman or a Briton. Many of these soldiers came to Ireland with the Norman invasion.

[Peterski]

Do foreign surnames in Ireland correlate with Y-DNA?

The vast majority of Irish Y-DNA is R1b and especially L21.

Z290 = L21

https://i.imgur.com/Kw6hGBg.png

[Albannach]

I'm sure most people know that the surname Walsh means a Welshman or a Briton. Many of these soldiers came to Ireland with the Norman invasion.

I wonder how many of them were actually Norman or just Welsh mercenaries? it seems they brought a number of Bretons over to England during the Norman conquest so they certainly didn't mind including different cultures/ethnicities in their conquests, it would be interesting to know if the same happened in regards to many of the Norman families coming to Ireland actually being Welsh or even partially Welsh, if so then I imagine that the Normans didn't make a massive genetic impact in Ireland due to the Welsh being pretty similar to the Irish to begin with, my Mum's surname is Barrett/Bairéad which doesn't sound particularly Welsh mind you.