How Celts changed forever the Iberian population

[Token]

How Indo-European invaders changed forever the Iberian population


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fd663f3ac-8d90-11e7-8a9b-cc2ed7ce991f.jpg?crop=2837%2C1596%2C62%2C355&resize=685

The Bronze Age was a important period in the ethnogenesis of Europe and was marked by intense migrations and population replacements in a similar fashion to the ones that occured during the Neolithic but, this time, the changes were apparently more prominent in the northern fringes of the continent, at least in a genetic sense. Iberians are a curious case: a pre-Indo-European language survived in the Basque region and, curiously, it is where the haplogroup R1b, associated with Bronze Age invaders, peaks in the peninsula (Villaescusa et al). In this thread, i will clarify some basic facts regarding the Bronze Age impact in the genetic profile of Iberians and how Celtic-speakers profoundly changed the population of the peninsula. To make it as clear as possible, i will divide the subject in different topics and discuss them separately.

More than half of the population of Iberia was replaced by Bronze Age invaders

One of the most recurring rumours is that Celtic languages were spread by imposition and proper Proto-Celts made just a tiny elite among a much broader pre-Celtic population. Another myth that i have been reading here is that Indo-European invaders just had a huge impact in Northern Europe and, in others parts of Europe, the impact was much more superficial and muted and was more based in cultural diffusion rather than genetic exchange. These assumptions are simply wrong and the emergence of Celtic tongues were always accompanied by a huge population turnover. In 2015, a study was conducted by Haak with the colaboration of more than 38 professional geneticists and support of renowned institutes like Harvard and MIT with the purpose of testing the credibility of the Kurgan hypothesis, that placed the Indo-European urheimat in the Eastern European Steppes, and measuring the genetic impact of these supposed invaders in modern Europeans. The title of the study was controversial among both professional geneticists, linguists and enthusiasts: "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe". In a section, Haak modulated the genetic make-up of modern European populations in three different components: Early Neolithic (EN), representing the contribution of early European farmers; Western Hunter Gatherer (WHG), the pre-Agriculture populations of Europe; and Yamnaya, the component introduced by Bronze Age invaders. The Spanish category, representing Central and Southern Iberians, was modulated as 22.3% Yamnaya and Northern Spanish as 31.1% Yamnaya:
https://i.imgur.com/mQKy50D.png
You must be thinking: "but you said that more than half of the population of Iberia was replaced and the results shows less than that". The explanation to this is the fact that Proto-Celts that invaded Iberia, the Isles and others parts of Europe were already mixed with native Europeans. The Bell Beakers, after recent genetic studies, became the best candidates for the spread of Celtic languages: this is constated by the fact that 90% of the population in the British Isles was replaced by a branch of Beakers during the Bronze Age (Olalde et al) and a similar phenomenom occured in Iberia but in a more modest way. This fact is useful for quantifying how much Bell Beaker-related ancestry Iberians have. Early Bell Beakers, according to Prof. Haak, had around 50% Yamnaya-derived ancestry:
http://s7.postimg.org/mbdfumhsr/Yamnaya_Admixture.png

It's secure to assume that the main bulk of the Yamnaya admixture present in modern Iberians was brought by a similar Beaker population, related to the ones who invaded the Isles, and this is constated by subtle Bronze Age shifts detected by Prof. Olalde, the same that quantified the population turnover in the Isles, the emergence of a distinct Iberian R1b subclade, also found at high frequencies in Netherlands where the Iberian Beakers supposedly came from, and the presence of Q-Celtic languages in Iberia since the Iron Age and possibly the Bronze Age, related to the Goidelic branch. If you do the math, you'll get to a population replacement in Northern and Central-Southern Iberians of 62.2% and 44.6% respectively, by Proto-Celts. Certainly not modest, right?

Indo-Europeans were violent population replacers

A study done Jiménez-Brobeil constated what was already expected: Celts were not peaceful newcomers willing to assimilate natives, they brutally slaughtered the males and took women as their wives. A site in Central Iberia dating back to the Bronze Age, when Beakers invaded Iberia, housed remains of adult and young men, women and child. Several traumatisms were detected in men during the early stages of occupation and, to a lesser frequency, women, but none was detected in children. A young man had three blunt force and 26 sharp force traumas and a similar pattern was observed in others 65 individuals analyzed. Apparently, there was a high exposure to violence for men during the Bronze Age. Also, a study done in this month attested a mtDNA continuity in Iberia during the Middle Neolithic - LN/Early Bronze Age transition, constrasting with the Y-DNA frequencies that, today, are heavily derived from Bronze Age settlers.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-15480-9
Agriculture first reached the Iberian Peninsula around 5700 BCE. However, little is known about the genetic structure and changes of prehistoric populations in different geographic areas of Iberia. In our study, we focus on the maternal genetic makeup of the Neolithic (~ 5500–3000 BCE), Chalcolithic (~ 3000–2200 BCE) and Early Bronze Age (~ 2200–1500 BCE). We report ancient mitochondrial DNA results of 213 individuals (151 HVS-I sequences) from the northeast, central, southeast and southwest regions and thus on the largest archaeogenetic dataset from the Peninsula to date. Similar to other parts of Europe, we observe a discontinuity between hunter-gatherers and the first farmers of the Neolithic. During the subsequent periods, we detect regional continuity of Early Neolithic lineages across Iberia, however the genetic contribution of hunter-gatherers is generally higher than in other parts of Europe and varies regionally. In contrast to ancient DNA findings from Central Europe, we do not observe a major turnover in the mtDNA record of the Iberian Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age, suggesting that the population history of the Iberian Peninsula is distinct in character.

Indo-Europeans were a agressive nomadic people with a warrior culture and war-like gods. Besides the warrior mindset, one of the greatest advantages of the Bronze Age invaders was the horse domestication and the proficiency that they apparently had in applying that to be always one step forward from their enemies.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/c7/ce/e9c7cec2196532184bc29acc00ed35e2.jpg

Bronze Age invaders brought R1b to Iberia

The main Y-DNA haplogroup present in Iberia is R1b, found in a frequency of 56% in Portugal and 69% in Spain. It peaks, ironically, on the Basque country, in Spain, where a non-Indo-European language survived, with a frequency of 85%, but the high percentages of Yamnaya admixture there discards a pre-IE origin. The main clade found in Iberians is the DF27, associated with these Bronze Age invaders. Early Bell Beakers with this same clade were found in Germany and Poland, with high percentages of Ancient North Eurasian and generic Yamnaya ancestry. Everything indicates that there were different groups of Bell Beakers with distinct linguistic affiliations and one of them entered Iberia probably from Netherlands as, excluding Iberia, it peaks in modern populations from the ancient Nordwestblock cultural area. The Basal R* was found in Siberia, in the Upper Paleolithic Mal'ta Buret culture, and a similar population would contribute to 50% of the genome of Yamnaya individuals where R1b was almost global (Haak et al) and later spread from there to Europe together with Indo-European languages and culture.

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/chalcolithic_late_Europe.jpg

[Raizen]

Nice thread :thumb001:

[Bell Beaker]

Subscribed.... ;)

Enviado do meu CAM-L21 através de Tapatalk

[Longobarda]

Token, why the title is: "How celts changed forever the iberian population" but the title of your writing is "how indoeuropeans changed forever the iberian population"? Do you identify celts with indoeuropeans? If so, why the first image is not celt but SCYTHIAN?

BTW, the Yamnaya people carried with them the R1a haplogroup. Apparently it is not present in Iberia.

One more thing: where do you place in Iberia the population called IBERI? I know that no DNA test has been made in Iberi graves. I even don't know if iberi's grave have ever been discovered. None talk about them in archeology scholarship. WHY?

[Token]

Token, why the title is: "How celts changed forever the iberian population" but the title of your writing is "how indoeuropeans changed forever the iberian population"? Do you identify celts with indoeuropeans? If so, why the first image is not celt but SCYTHIAN? One more thing: where do you place in Iberia the population called IBERI? I know that no DNA test has been made in Iberi graves. I even don't know if iberi's grave have ever been discovered. None talk about them in archeology scholarship. WHY?

Celts were obviously Indo-Europeans, both terms are interchangeable in the case of Iberia.
I used this Scythian image because it, in my opinion, is a very good representation of early Indo-Europeans horse-riders, nothing more.
The 'Iberi', like you call them, were the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Iberia that later mixed with Bronze Age Celtic invaders to form what Iberians are today.

[Longobarda]

https://i.redd.it/u3g8pprkb8jz.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]https://images.theconversation.com/files/74571/original/image-20150312-13517-a10qp6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=926&fit=clip

https://lundiak.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/europe_y-dna_map.jpg

http://faithandheritage.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Y-DNA-mtDNA-R1a-R1b-archeogenetics-modern-distribution-of-U152-clan.gif

[Longobarda]

Celts were obviously Indo-Europeans, both terms are interchangeable in the case of Iberia.
I used this Scythian image because it, in my opinion, is a very good representation of early Indo-Europeans horse-riders, nothing more.
The 'Iberi', like you call them, were the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Iberia that later mixed with Bronze Age Celtic invaders to form what Iberians are today.

The Iberi, in my view, could have been the yamnaya coming by sea from east to west. It is enough to see their images to understand they are eastern cultures. I've also made comparisons with the karakalpak dressing and the iberi's statues. Astonishing how much they do resemble.

[Token]

The Iberi, in my view, could have been the yamnaya coming by sea from east to west. It is enough to see their images to understand they are eastern cultures. I've also made comparisons with the karakalpak dressing and the iberi's statues. Astonishing how much they do resemble.

I don't think this is possible, they were probably Neolithic farmers. Before the Bronze Age, the Iberian genetic make-up was entirely derived from early European farmers and Western Hunter Gatherers, without any Yamnaya affinity. Just after the transition to the Bronze Age we could observe a intrusion of Steppe-related ancestry and a significant genetic shift towards Steppe Bronze Age cultures like Yamnaya and Sintashta.

[Longobarda]

And I had added the following sentence: BTW, the Yamnaya people carried with them the R1a haplogroup. Apparently it is not present in Iberia.

[Longobarda]

I don't think this is possible, they were probably Neolithic farmers. Before the Bronze Age, the Iberian genetic make-up was entirely derived from early European farmers and Western Hunter Gatherers, without any Yamnaya affinity. Just after the transition to the Bronze Age we could observe a intrusion of Steppe-related ancestry a significant genetic shift towards Steppe Bronze Age cultures like Yamnaya and Sintashta.

The iberi date 1500 b.c.e. if I am not wrong. They are not neolithic

[Longobarda]

Dama de Baza

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/35/a2/84/35a28426e03c4375874e748d6ef3981c.png

[Token]

The iberi date 1500 b.c.e. if I am not wrong. They are not neolithic

I'm talking in a genetic sense, culturally they looked like a amalgamation of pre-IE populations heavily influenced by Greek and Phoenician culture. They apparently dated back to the 6th century according to Roman and Greek sources but they probably were already present since Neolithic times and were later pushed by Indo-Europeans to the eastern and southern coasts of the peninsula, where they maintained their mother-tongue while those that remained in Western, Central and Northern Iberia mixed with the invaders. Celtiberian is the best term to describe the Iron Age Iberian Celts, they were essentially a mix of native Iberians and Proto-Celtic invaders.

[Damião de Góis]

We are talking about these people?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

It's still not clear if they were the ones who brought R1b into the peninsula. In fact, their distribution does not match any haplogroup:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Iberia-maps.png

Their historic importance is small too, but people here praise their resistance against the romans, in particular in the case of the lusitanians.

[Longobarda]

Typical of the steppe are the statues-stelae (funerary) almost spread all over the territory. Their typical gesture is to bring a cup or a vase, which is not seen in european equivalent statues-stelae.
Well, in ancient iberia there have been such cup or vase bringers. More elaborated than the eastern stelae but significant for the gesture:

http://images.nationalgeographic.com.es/medio/2014/12/10/iberos3_1304x2000.jpg

anyway this one to me look phoenician

[Longobarda]

We are talking about these people?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

It's still not clear if they were the ones who brought R1b into the peninsula. In fact, their distribution does not match any haplogroup:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Iberia-maps.png

Their historic importance is small too, but people here praise their resistance against the romans, in particular in the case of the lusitanians.

Small? Romans were Always fighting against iberi. They lasted longtime before conquering Iberia, thanks to Iberi. And Iberi were allied (and occupied by, as well) to Hannibal the Cartaginian during the seond Punic War. They were accompanying him in his trip trough the Alps with the elephants and then down to Rome!
How can you say their historic importance is small? Iberi have left their DNA as well in the iberian population, pity that we don't know which one, because of what I told you before: nobody has made their DNA exham..

[Token]

We are talking about these people?

It's still not clear if they were the ones who brought R1b into the peninsula. In fact, their distribution does not match any haplogroup:

Their historic importance is small too, but people here praise their resistance against the romans, in particular in the case of the lusitanians.

This map represents ethnic groups from 200 BCE, i'm talking about the first Celtic speakers (Proto-Celts) that invaded the peninsula much before, in the early Bronze Age, and replaced around half of the population of Iberia. Read it and you will understand. Also, R1b was not present in Iberia before this invasion and the Iberian subclade (DF27) was found in Bell Beaker remains in Central Europe so, it was obviously brought during the Bronze Age by Celtic-speakers.

[caviezel]

they should have introduce more light eyes, because only 11% of light eyes in Andalusia and 12% in Galicia are kind of a bummer if you ask me. :p

[Longobarda]

Token as far as I know, scholars say that Y DNA haplo R is neolithic and does not correspond with the celts arrival. The celts were carriers of G2a2b2a1b (L497)
70099
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70099&d=1511659877
70100
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70100&d=1511659879
70101
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70101&d=1511659900

70102
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70102&d=1511660298

[Longobarda]

Bell beaker expansion hypotesis

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Diffusione_cultura_vaso_campaniforme.svg

[War Chef]

This is just wishful thinking. It's been proven in studies that Celto-Iberians spoke Celtic only because of elite-dominance. In the same way Gagauz speak Turkic but have only 1% Mongoloid genetics. If you want to fantasize about exotic north-men that actually contributed to Iberian gene-pool than Suebi (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Suebic_migrations.jpg) are a good bet, (not Visigoths because they too fall under "elite dominance" model).

[Token]

This is just wishful thinking. It's been proven in studies that Celto-Iberians spoke Celtic only because of elite-dominance. In the same way Gagauz speak Turkic but have only 1% Mongoloid genetics. If you want to fantasize about exotic north-men that actually contributed to Iberian gene-pool than Suebi (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Suebic_migrations.jpg) are a good bet, (not Visigoths because they too fall under "elite dominance" model).

Everything that i stated was based on peer-reviewed sources, you are just saying your opinion without any scientific value. If you want to legimately challenge studies done by Harvard, at least do some effort to present scientific backing.

[Cristiano viejo]

they should have introduce more light eyes, because only 11% of light eyes in Andalusia and 12% in Galicia are kind of a bummer if you ask me. :p

This is not Italy, boy. You suck identifiying light eyes, remember?

[Longobarda]

The problem is that R1b did not arrive with the celts..... they were Haplo G

[War Chef]

Everything that i stated was based on peer-reviewed sources, you are just saying your opinion without any scientific value. If you want to legimately challenge studies done by Harvard, at least do some effort to present scientific backing.

All your fancy Harvard words do not scare me. Through simple logic and observing how close Iberians cluster with Basques it is clear we are dealing with a population that first got Celticized and then more strongly Romanified (hence your language today).... If anything pulled Iberians to the east, it was the Romans. The Celto-Iberian genetic impact on Iberia was negligible (5-10%?).

https://i.imgur.com/q0m6OSD.png
https://i.imgur.com/cqaUSmf.jpg

Roman Spain:

https://i.imgur.com/ihgEigD.png
https://i.imgur.com/HakIL3Y.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

All your fancy Harvard words do not scare me. Through simple logic and observing how close Iberians cluster with Basques it is clear we are dealing with a population that first got Celticized and then more strongly Romanified (hence your language today).... If anything pulled Iberians to the east, it was the Romans.
Romans did not leave anything genetically, here we dont have their MENA haplos.


The Celto-Iberian genetic impact on Iberia was negligible (5-10%?).



Specially the Iberian part of that combo :rolleyes:

[Damião de Góis]

All your fancy Harvard words do not scare me. Through simple logic and observing how close Iberians cluster with Basques it is clear we are dealing with a population that first got Celticized and then more strongly Romanified (hence your language today).... If anything pulled Iberians to the east, it was the Romans. The Celto-Iberian genetic impact on Iberia was negligible (5-10%?).


Roman Spain:


Except there is no Y-DNA match with italians (or romans). They are mostly one kind of R1b, while we are mostly another kind of R1b.

[Damião de Góis]

The problem is that R1b did not arrive with the celts..... they were Haplo G

Haplgroup G is usually associated with the Caucasus.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

Its presence in Iberia could be due to neolithic expansion, or Alans at best. Not celts.

[War Chef]

Except there is no Y-DNA match with italians (or romans). They are mostly one kind of R1b, while we are mostly another kind of R1b.

Come again?

https://i.imgur.com/hYWApSE.jpg

[Longobarda]

Except there is no Y-DNA match with italians (or romans). They are mostly one kind of R1b, while we are mostly another kind of R1b.

Wrong. You also have the R1B U152 (S28) which is the ROMAN DNA. Cristiano Viejo the MENA is into your BRAIN.

70103

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70103&d=1511662423

[Damião de Góis]

Come again?

https://i.imgur.com/hYWApSE.jpg

J2 is too low in Iberia to be responsible for a pull eastwards in relation to basques. Even in Italy it's low.
That haplogroup came with the neolithic too.

[War Chef]

J2 is too low in Iberia to be responsible for a pull eastwards in relation to basques. Even in Italy it's low.
That haplogroup came with the neolithic too.

OK. At least you know that the autochthonous populations of Iberia were once very Basque-like, and then a series of events pushed them closer east, but still isolated. They never fully escaped the pull of the Basques, because it is their predominant makeup.

By the way I think the Celts who came to Iberia came from Southern-France, and so we're not talking about a Bavarian/Austrian invasion here.

[caviezel]

This is not Italy, boy. You suck identifiying light eyes, remember?
thankfully Im referencing Luis De Hoyos Sainz and he can't be wrong. :p

[Cristiano viejo]

OK. At least you know that the autochthonous populations of Iberia were once very Basque-like, and then a series of events pushed them closer east, but still isolated. They never fully escaped the pull of the Basques, because it is their predominant makeup.

By the way I think the Celts who came to Iberia came from Southern-France, and so we're not talking about a Bavarian/Austrian invasion here.

You are not discovering the moon. Basques were very related to the rest of Iberian tribes.

[Cristiano viejo]

thankfully Im referencing Luis De Hoyos Sainz and he can't be wrong. :p

I dont know what that man claims but I prefer to trust of my own eyes.
Not surprised that, seeing how you identified the colour of eyes in that other thread, you prefer to believe what others say.

[Hamlet]

This is just wishful thinking. It's been proven in studies that Celto-Iberians spoke Celtic only because of elite-dominance. In the same way Gagauz speak Turkic but have only 1% Mongoloid genetics. If you want to fantasize about exotic north-men that actually contributed to Iberian gene-pool than Suebi (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Suebic_migrations.jpg) are a good bet, (not Visigoths because they too fall under "elite dominance" model).

Agreed

[War Chef]

You are not discovering the moon. Basques were very related to the rest of Iberian tribes.

You don't get it. You were once a Basque. Only difference is your people lived on the low-lands and had to endure Celt, Roman, Migration period & Moor onslaught.
You are the product of that.

[Cristiano viejo]

You don't get it. You were once a Basque. Only difference is your people lived on the low-lands and had to endure Celt, Roman, Migration period & Moor onslaught.
You are the product of that.
It is you who dont get. I am the first that claim that all Spaniards have Basque ancestry.

But not because once all Iberians were Basque, that is stupid as fuck.

[Longobarda]

Haplgroup G is usually associated with the Caucasus.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

Its presence in Iberia could be due to neolithic expansion, or Alans at best. Not celts.

Haplogroup G peaks North of Black sea. The region where the scythians were living. That is not strange to see their G haplogroup in Europe. Celts and Scythians might have been the same population. But this is only my opinion. The other haplo which identified scythians was the R1a. Very strong in Germany and in all northern Europe. Italy has that haplo in lesser extent. Spain has 0%.

[Longobarda]

I dont know what that man claims but I prefer to trust of my own eyes.
Not surprised that, seeing how you identified the colour of eyes in that other thread, you prefer to believe what others say.

which thread? I would like to see if I need glasses too or if what I've seen in Spain is true.

[Damião de Góis]

Haplogroup G peaks North of Black sea. The region where the scythians were living. That is not strange to see their G haplogroup in Europe. Celts and Scythians might have been the same population. But this is only my opinion. The other haplo which identified scythians was the R1a. Very strong in Germany and in all northern Europe. Italy has that haplo in lesser extent. Spain has 0%.

R1a exists in western Europe in low quantities. But it exists in Spain in different amounts, it's close to 10% in Cantabria:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Longobarda]

R1a exists in western Europe in low quantities. But it exists in Spain in different amounts, it's close to 10% in Cantabria:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It means that scythians or their parents (Yamnaya) were present in Cantabria at that rate. But effectively I suppose that Alans too were bringing that haplo, which I don't know.

[MagnusAurelius]

Seems like you are exaggerating the Celtic influence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitanians

[Cristiano viejo]

which thread? I would like to see if I need glasses too or if what I've seen in Spain is true.
You need glasses for sure independently of that thread since you thought Sofía Vergara was and looked Spanish and/or since you claim Basques are darker than Andalusians.

I dont remember the exact thread. Perhaps Cavi remembers it. He and me know about what we are talking.


Seems like you are exaggerating the Celtic influence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusitanians
in that link you can read this


Categorising Lusitanian culture generally, including the language, is proving difficult and contentious. Some believe it was essentially a pre-Celtic Iberian culture with substantial Celtic influences, while others argue that it was an essentially Celtic culture with strong indigenous pre-Celtic influences.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

You don't get it. You were once a Basque. Only difference is your people lived on the low-lands and had to endure Celt, Roman, Migration period & Moor onslaught.
You are the product of that.

The Celts certainly had an impact, although we need ancient DNA to see if it was just cultural or both cultural and ethnical.

The population of "low-land" (as you call us :o) Iberia was already different from Basques before historic time. Basques are an isolated population, people need to stop comparing them to "low-land" Iberians.


aDNA reveals a different demographic impact of the Neolithic transition in South and North of Spain

Gloria Gonzalez1,*, Tassi Francesca1, Kirstin Henneberger2, Cecilio Barroso3, Arturo Lombera4, Ramon Fabregas4, Aurora Grandal5, Michael Hofreiter2, Guido Barbujani1

1 Biology, University of Ferrara, Ferrara., Italy,
2 Biology, University of Potsdam, Potsdam, Germany,
3 Archaeology, Fundacion Estudios Prehistoricos, Cordoba,
4 Archaeology, Universtiy of Santiago de Compostela, Santiago de Compostela,
5 Biology, University of A Coruna, A Coruna, Spain

Abstract: Ancient DNA (aDNA) studies are strongly contributing to shed light on a widely debated topic in archaeology, anthropology and population genetics: the dynamics of the spread of farming into Europe, or Neolithic transition. In the last few years, nuclear aDNA from prehistoric samples have led to identify the genetic legacy of the Neolithic and later human migrations into modern Europeans. Far from closing the debate, these palaeogenomes are revealing a complicated scenario, where the demographic impact of the Neolithic transition seems to have been different in different geographic areas. Describing in detail how the transition occurred in each area, and by which combination of demic and cultural changes, is now an important research priority. The Iberian Peninsula, at the western edge of major human migrations is a particular interesting area for understanding otherwise elusiveaspects of European prehistory. We have taken advantage of the high percentage of endogenous DNA preserved in the petrous bone to recover nuclear genomes from Spanish prehistoric samples by shotgun sequencing. The newly generated genome data has revealed a different demographic impact of the Neolithic transition in North and South of Spain, with northern populations having a smaller Middle East component in their gene pool than southern populations. Furthermore, the palaeogenetic data has revealed prehistoric contacts between the Iberian and African populations dated back to at least 3000 years before present.

[Damião de Góis]

Calling basques highlanders and the rest of iberians low landers doesn't make any sense btw

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/59/4a/6a/594a6a783d1be615aaecdea8175afeff.jpg

[War Chef]

Calling basques highlanders and the rest of iberians low landers doesn't make any sense btw

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/59/4a/6a/594a6a783d1be615aaecdea8175afeff.jpg

Comparatively speaking. The rest of Iberians live on flat-plateaus, when compared to Basques

[Cristiano viejo]

Comparatively speaking. The rest of Iberians live on flat-plateaus, when compared to Basques

Basques dont have not even the higher mountains, boy. Where have you learned Spanish geography?

[Bell Beaker]

So, we have the most relevant Celtic related sites outside of Central and Western Europe and people think we recieved irrelevant Celtic influences? xD

Celtic influence can be seen everywhere in this areas, and not only the North. Even the fucking gods we used to workship were similar or even at some cases the same as Celts from other regions like Cernunnos or Lugh. Now, what those Celts looked like that's a whole different history, we just can't clean history because of some insecure retards. It's clear that the Pre-Roman Iberia was not that Homogeneous and various regions were under different civilizations rule (Celtic, Carthagian, Greek......)

[War Chef]

Where have you learned Spanish geography?

When I read the book:

"How to conquer & genocide the Iberian populations for dummies - a strategy guide"

[Cristiano viejo]

When I read the book:

"How to conquer & genocide the Iberian populations for dummies - a strategy guide"

Not surprised why you failed in geography then, same than the author of that book heheheh

[Grace O'Malley]

http://s7.postimg.org/mbdfumhsr/Yamnaya_Admixture.png

You can see how close you are to some of these ancient samples by using the PuntDNAL K12 Ancient calc. It is a good way to see how Steppe shifted you are.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_HG 40.69
2 Anatolian_NF 34.43
3 Caucasus_HG 20.22
4 South_Asian 2.03
5 Near_East 1.56
6 Amerindian 0.65
7 Siberian 0.42

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 2.78
2 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 2.96
3 Unetice_EBA_I0117 3.27
4 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 4.04
5 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 6.51
6 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 6.68
7 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 8.76
8 Potapovka_I0419 10.38
9 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 11.99
10 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 12.07
11 Vatya_SG_RISE479 12.52
12 Srubnaya_I0430 12.88
13 Hungary_BA_I1502 13.6
14 Srubnaya_I0232 15.01
15 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 15.06
16 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 16.57
17 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 16.8
18 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 17.19
19 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 17.8
20 Scythian_IA_I0247 26.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.5% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.5% Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 0.73
2 92.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.4% Baalberge_MN_I0560 @ 0.83
3 93.2% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.8% Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 0.83
4 92.8% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.2% Epserstedt_MN_I0172 @ 0.88
5 93.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.4% Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 0.89
6 93% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7% Iceman_MN_SG @ 0.91
7 94% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6% Stuttgart_SG @ 0.92
8 92.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.4% Iberia_M_ I0406 @ 0.93
9 93.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.4% Iberia_EN_I0412 @ 0.96
10 93.3% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.7% Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 0.96
11 93.9% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.1% LBK_EN_I0054 @ 0.96
12 94.2% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 5.8% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 0.97
13 96.9% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 3.1% Anatolian Neolithic_I0745 @ 1.36
14 96.9% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 3.1% Anatolian Neolithic_I0746 @ 1.36
15 91.9% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 8.1% Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 1.47
16 93.4% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 6.6% Stuttgart_SG @ 1.49
17 92.6% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 7.4% Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 1.5
18 93.2% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 6.8% LBK_EN_I0054 @ 1.5
19 92.2% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 7.8% Iceman_MN_SG @ 1.5
20 93.6% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 6.4% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 1.51

Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 +50% Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 2.369731


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 +25% Unetice_EBA_I0117 +25% Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.210707


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.017889
2 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.093679
3 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.106953
4 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.146204
5 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.168182
6 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.175668
7 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.205691
8 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.210707
9 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.220376
10 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.221146
11 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.222816
12 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.233861
13 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.238596
14 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 1.278032
15 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.278936
16 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.346006
17 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.357954
18 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.381677
19 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.385093
20 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 1.385836


You can also use this:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

http://i65.tinypic.com/2qmzos1.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/2j451n9.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/e7ci8g.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

And I had added the following sentence: BTW, the Yamnaya people carried with them the R1a haplogroup. Apparently it is not present in Iberia.
The yamnaya carried R1b-Z2103 as well. Just because haplogroups aren’t present doesn’t mean that admixture isn’t

[Kelmendasi]

Token as far as I know, scholars say that Y DNA haplo R is neolithic and does not correspond with the celts arrival. The celts were carriers of G2a2b2a1b (L497)
70099
[IMhttps://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70099&d=1511659877[/IMG]
70100
[IG]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70100&d=1511659879[/IMG]
70101
[IM]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70101&d=1511659900[/IMG]

70102
[IM]https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70102&d=1511660298[/IMG]
R has nothing to do with Neolithic expansion into Europe, it was brought into Europe via Bronze Age invasions from the Steppe

[Kelmendasi]

The problem is that R1b did not arrive with the celts..... they were Haplo G
Celts were mainly R1b(subclades L21, DF27 and U152) although they did carry other haplogroups such as G2a, I2a2b etc

[Token]

All your fancy Harvard words do not scare me. Through simple logic and observing how close Iberians cluster with Basques it is clear we are dealing with a population that first got Celticized and then more strongly Romanified (hence your language today).... If anything pulled Iberians to the east, it was the Romans. The Celto-Iberian genetic impact on Iberia was negligible (5-10%?).
Basques also received Steppe introgression, or do you think that a almost complete haplogroup turnover came from the heaven? Apparently you didn't even read my post because, if you did so, you would know that. Romans didn't settled en masse after conquering a population, they simply allocated a elite to rule and impose their culture over the local population, this is constated by the frequency of haplogroups related to modern Italians in Iberia. I am not saying that they didn't contributed at all, but the only mass migration that shaped significantly the genetic profile of the peninsula occured in the Bronze Age and, possibly, in the Iron Age. This study compares EN/MN with LN/EBA Portuguese samples and a subtly northern shift is already observed in the earliest stages of the Indo-European settlements:
Remember that the only Indo-European branch spoken in the peninsula was the Celtic so, in the case of ancient Iberians, the Indo-European and Celtic terms are interchangeable.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852&type=printable
When comparing Portuguese Neolithic to Bronze Age samples, the former presented an excess of haplotype donation to Sardinian and Spanish (p = 0.017). Northern/eastern ancestry is evident in the Bronze Age, with significantly increased enrichment in Chuvash, Orcadian (p = 0.017), Lezgin and Irish (p = 0.033). However, this shift from southern to northern affinity is markedly weaker than that observed between Neolithic and Bronze Age genomes in Ireland, Scandinavia, Hungary and Central Europe. These findings suggest detectable, but comparatively modest, Steppe-related introgression present at the Portuguese Bronze Age.


https://i.imgur.com/8Nt5RUu.png

[Stears]

Indo-Europeans were the swarthy, gypsy like eurasian nomadic untermemenschen from the steppes.
The more IE ancestry (eastern Europeans), more untemenschen looks and cultural development.

Deal with it.

[Ülev]

R1a exists in western Europe in low quantities. But it exists in Spain in different amounts, it's close to 10% in Cantabria:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

do you know how old is the presence of R1a in Iberia? maybe these people were early migrant workers maybe from XIX/XX century?

Some of R1athelites worked there, I mean North Spain as miners, some stayed, some left their genes only?


https://youtu.be/Mab2u_A_x7Y


Asturias, Patria Querida is the anthem of the Spanish autonomous community of Asturias. This adaptation of a much slower song from the neighbouring lands of Cantabria (Madre, cuando voy a leña) was appointed as official anthem after a contest in Oviedo in the 1890s. It has both a Castilian and an Asturian version. It is also a popular melody for bagpipers.

It has been recently discovered that this song was written in Cuba. The father of the author had returned to his beloved Asturias to die, the author - Ignacio Piñeiro - dedicated the song to his father. The music was different, it is believed to be a melody that Polish miners from the area of Opole Silesia -that worked in Asturian coal mines at the beginning of the 20th century- had brought to Asturias. In fact, the song is still known in Poland, where it was taught as a patriotic song.

[Damião de Góis]

do you know how old is the presence of R1a in Iberia? maybe these people were early migrant workers maybe from XIX/XX century?

Some of R1athelites worked there, I mean North Spain as miners, some stayed, some left their genes only?


https://youtu.be/Mab2u_A_x7Y

I don't think they take recent immigrants into consideration.

[Token]

You can see how close you are to some of these ancient samples by using the PuntDNAL K12 Ancient calc. It is a good way to see how Steppe shifted you are.
I remember seeing a PCA of a modern Iberian in relation to ancient populations and he plotted halfway between CopperAge_Iberia and Bell_Beaker_LN. Modern Iberians can be modulated, on average, as something like 50% Nordwestblock Bell Beaker and 50% Middle Neolithic Iberia.

[JMack]

Indo-Europeans were the swarthy, gypsy like eurasian nomadic untermemenschen from the steppes.
The more IE ancestry (eastern Europeans), more untemenschen looks and cultural development.

Deal with it.

You're the best user here, man. Thumbs up for this majestic comment.

[Token]

Indo-Europeans were the swarthy, gypsy like eurasian nomadic untermemenschen from the steppes.
The more IE ancestry (eastern Europeans), more untemenschen looks and cultural development.
This is funny coming from a Hungarian when 2/3 of your ancestry can be traced back to Indo-European invaders.

[Stears]

This is funny coming from a Hungarian when 2/3 of your ancestry can be traced back to Indo-European invaders.

In which fantasy book ? R1a isn't very high in Hungary, it is below 30%.

We have nothing to do with brown Indo-European gypos.

[Cristiano viejo]

In which fantasy book ? R1a isn't very high in Hungary, it is below 30%.

We have nothing to do with brown Indo-European gypos.

Below 30%... lol

[Stears]

Below 30%... lol

Yes, and dominant only in the northeastern Hungary (where many slavic origin people live). Watch it: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Hungary even isn't in top 10 R1a countries in Europe.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, and dominant only in the northeastern Hungary (where many slavic origin people live). Watch it: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Hungary even isn't in top 10 R1a countries in Europe.

Below 30% still is a lot.

[Token]

In which fantasy book ? R1a isn't very high in Hungary, it is below 30%.

We have nothing to do with brown Indo-European gypos.

I'm talking about aDNA, not haplogroups. Hungarians have one of the highest percentages of Yamnaya-related (aka Proto-Indo-European) admixture, more so than Ukrainians.

Here's the full study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf
https://i.imgur.com/CfC8m3i.png

[Leto]

Yes, and dominant only in the northeastern Hungary (where many slavic origin people live). Watch it: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Hungary even isn't in top 10 R1a countries in Europe.
Idiot, you share far more in common with Czechs and even Poles than with the Irish or French. Hungarians have a shitload of Slavic blood, perhaps more than South Slavs like Bulgarians do. :picard1:

[Ülev]

Yes, and dominant only in the northeastern Hungary (where many slavic origin people live). Watch it: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Hungary even isn't in top 10 R1a countries in Europe.

lucky you! I have to stand R1a on daily basis here in .pl

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.2.jpg
russian source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

[Stears]

I'm talking about aDNA, not haplogroups. Hungarians have one of the highest percentages of Yamnaya-related (aka Proto-Indo-European) admixture, more so than Ukrainians.

Here's the full study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf
https://i.imgur.com/CfC8m3i.png

But I think the sample is unrepresentative, probably slavic origin people from northeastern Hungary. Because the Ukrainians are much more IE than we are !

In the calculators I don't score much of the Yamnaya ancestry...

[Leto]

Also, neither the Corded Ware nor the Sintashta (proto-Indo-Iranians) looked like Gypsies. That's absolute rubbish.

[Stears]

My IE admixture result:


<tbody>
2
Afansievo_Yamnaya
15.73

</tbody>

Is that considered a lot ? I don't think so.....:))))))))

[Cristiano viejo]

But I think the sample is unrepresentative, probably slavic origin people from northeastern Hungary. Because the Ukrainians are much more IE than we are !

In the calculators I don't score much of the Yamnaya ancestry...

Stears dont be fool. What matters if you or the rest of Hungarians score Yamnaya or not and in what amounts? you look white and act white, what more do you want? :p

[JMack]

Also, neither the Corded Ware nor the Sintashta (proto-Indo-Iranians) looked like Gypsies. That's absolute rubbish.

Yes. Gypsies descend from low caste people from Punjab mixed with Middle Easterners and Europeans. They don't resemble the original speakers of Indo-Iranian langauges.
Groups like Kalash, Burusho, Tajiks and high caste Punjabis and Kashmiris do.

[Stears]

Idiot, you share far more in common with Czechs and even Poles than with the Irish or French. Hungarians have a shitload of Slavic blood, perhaps more than South Slavs like Bulgarians do. :picard1:

Wrong. I have very little slavic admixture. Hungarians are not Slavic, and never were.

[Leto]

Yes. Gypsies descend from low caste people from Punjab mixed with Middle Easterners and Europeans. They don't resemble the original speakers of Indo-Iranian langauges.
Groups like Kalash, Burusho, Tajiks and high caste Punjabis and Kashmiris do.
The Sintashta people looked even lighter than any of those South Asian groups.

[Stears]

Stears dont be fool. What matters if you or the rest of Hungarians score Yamnaya or not and in what amounts? you look white and act white, what more do you want? :p

I'm just against 19th centuries romantic idea (which were debunked) that Indo-Europeans were white people, because it isn't true.

[JMack]

The Sintashta people looked even lighter than any of those South Asian groups.

Burusho can be very light. They have a high amount of light eyes and hair, but they certainly don't resemble exactly the original IEs.
No modern population is 100% Indo-European genetically, the closest ones are East Slavs and these isolated South Asian groups.

[Babak]

Pamiri tajiks are probably what sintashta people resembled.

[Leto]

Pamiri tajiks are probably what sintashta people resembled.
She's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaecMDew60&t=403s) an Aryan princess. If she converted to my religion, I would marry her :)

[Babak]

She's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaecMDew60&t=403s) an Aryan princess. If she converted to my religion, I would marry her :)

I heard tajiks are becoming more and more conservative tbh. They're starting to use more persian names, replace russian words with persian ones and in fact, replace the russian language language as a secondary option.

[Messier 67]

Spain is now 71% Indo-European, so it is more than half. And soon after the Indo-Europeans "replaced/displaced" the Megalithic builders, the Carthaginians brought some new blood, followed by the Romans, Visigoths, and then Arabs. That 71% is more than France's % of Indo-Europeans (because of Caesar's conquest of Gaul, in which Caesar repaid the "kindness" of Indo-Europeans). And Spain has about as many Indo-Europeans as Great Britain, as a percentage of the population.

[Leto]

I heard tajiks are becoming more and more conservative tbh. They're starting to use more persian names, replace russian words and in fact, the russian language language as a secondary option.
Yes, they are very Muzzy. Not much positive to say about the Republic of Tajikistan.

[Babak]

Yes, they are very Muzzy. Not much positive to say about the Republic of Tajikistan.

Im glad they're distancing themselves away from ruskis. Don't worry though, you guys have uzbeks underwatch.

[Token]

But I think the sample is unrepresentative, probably slavic origin people from northeastern Hungary. Because the Ukrainians are much more IE than we are !

In the calculators I don't score much of the Yamnaya ancestry...

It is a peer-reviewed study with high sampling, it's certainly reliable. I don't know any calculator that can assign Yamnaya ancestry with precision, all of them confuses ANE-affinity with proper Steppe introgression. Eurogenes Steppe K10, for example, peaks the Steppe component in Saami which is laughable.

[Root]

Im glad they're distancing themselves away from ruskis. Don't worry though, you guys have uzbeks underwatch.





Russo turisto, obliko morale :lol:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcJC8SHtlrg

[Cristiano viejo]

Spain is now 71% Indo-European, so it is more than half. And soon after the Indo-Europeans "replaced/displaced" the Megalithic builders, the Carthaginians brought some new blood, followed by the Romans, Visigoths, and then Arabs. That 71% is more than France's % of Indo-Europeans (because of Caesar's conquest of Gaul, in which Caesar repaid the "kindness" of Indo-Europeans). And Spain has about as many Indo-Europeans as Great Britain, as a percentage of the population.
We dont have Arab blood.

[Leto]

We dont have Arab blood.
I sometimes argue with Neo-Nazis on Youtube who claim that Southern European are not white. I say they are swarthier mainly because of a larger share of Neolithic ancestry, not because of recent 'Arab' admixture. Studies say Spain is less than 10% North African on average (remember than the NA is not the SSA).

[Cristiano viejo]

I sometimes argue with Neo-Nazis on Youtube who claim that Southern European are not white. I say they are swarthier mainly because of a larger share of Neolithic ancestry, not because of recent 'Arab' admixture. Studies say Spain is less than 10% North African on average (remember than the NA is not the SSA).

And what about the South Euros that are not swarthy, like myself? dont quote

No one Spanish is not even near to be 10% North African :picard1:

[Ilma]

Great work and great thread, very interesting to read. Thank you Token.

[Leto]

And what about the South Euros that are not swarthy, like myself? dont quote

No one Spanish is not even near to be 10% North African :picard1:
I mean swarthier on average. Luis Figo is okay for Portugal, but not really for Scandinavia.
Well, that's what studies say. 700 years of Muslim and Jewish presence must've left their mark, albeit not as strong as some believe. A certain number of converts surely got absorbed and assimilated (Moros and Sephardics). Though I personally believe their impact is not that significant. And of course they weren't Negros, but Caucasoid.

[Cristiano viejo]

I mean swarthier on average. Luis Figo is okay for Portugal, but not really for Scandinavia.
Well, that's what studies say. 700 years of Muslim and Jewish presence must've left their mark, albeit not as strong as some believe. A certain number of converts surely got absorbed and assimilated (Moros and Sephardics). Though I personally believe their impact is not that significant. And of course they weren't Negros, but Caucasoid.

You are smarter than the "700 years of Muslim presence" sentence, boy. THERE WAS NOT 700 YEARS OF PRESENCE IN MORE THAN 90% OF IBERIA :picard1:

[Leto]

You are smarter than the "700 years of Muslim presence" sentence, boy. THERE WAS NOT 700 YEARS OF PRESENCE IN MORE THAN 90% OF IBERIA :picard1:
Okay, in some parts then. Northern Spain supposedly has more NW Euro admixture than Southern Spain. The WHG is NW in this case.
<a href="https://ibb.co/egsEyR"><img src="https://image.ibb.co/jDfdQ6/nihms801601f7.jpg" alt="nihms801601f7" border="0"></a>

[Cristiano viejo]

Okay, in some parts then. Northern Spain supposedly has more NW Euro admixture than Southern Spain. The WHG is NW in this case.


Galicia and Pasiegos in Cantabria score higher NA than Andalusians. Explain why, if (southern) Andalusia is the only area where Muslims were 700 years.

[Leto]

Galicia and Pasiegos in Cantabria score higher NA than Andalusians. Explain why, if (southern) Andalusia is the only area where Muslims were 700 years.
Hm. Isn't Galicia the most Celtic-Germanic region of Spain?

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

Okay, in some parts then. Northern Spain supposedly has more NW Euro admixture than Southern Spain. The WHG is NW in this case.
<a href="https://ibb.co/egsEyR"><img src="https://image.ibb.co/jDfdQ6/nihms801601f7.jpg" alt="nihms801601f7" border="0"></a>

Who do you think the Spanish_North is? I'm asking because it's the 300th time I see people getting fooled by the name Spanish_North (it was named by someone really sneaky...). Everybody uses the same datasets, they can be found, for example, here:

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets -> Affymetrix Human Origins fully public dataset described in Lazaridis et al. Nature 2014

Anyway, Spanish_North are just BASQUES. I repeat, just BASQUES. The name Spanish_North is incredibly badly given (I'd call it biased). The Spanish name refers to all other Spaniards (with the exception of Canarians) besides Basques.

[Cristiano viejo]

Hm. Isn't Galicia the most Celtic-Germanic region of Spain?

Not more Celtic-Germanic than Asturias, Cantabria or Castilla y León. Less neither, the question is hard.
But that is not the point.

Nevermind.

[alnortedelsur]

This is just wishful thinking. It's been proven in studies that Celto-Iberians spoke Celtic only because of elite-dominance. In the same way Gagauz speak Turkic but have only 1% Mongoloid genetics. If you want to fantasize about exotic north-men that actually contributed to Iberian gene-pool than Suebi (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Suebic_migrations.jpg) are a good bet, (not Visigoths because they too fall under "elite dominance" model).

No, their influence wasn't small and they were not only a small elite, lol. Otherwise Iberians woudn't plot where they do on PCA maps, nor a great percentage of them (more than what many people think) would break the wog Iberian stereotype as they do.

[alnortedelsur]

All your fancy Harvard words do not scare me. Through simple logic and observing how close Iberians cluster with Basques it is clear we are dealing with a population that first got Celticized and then more strongly Romanified (hence your language today).... If anything pulled Iberians to the east, it was the Romans. The Celto-Iberian genetic impact on Iberia was negligible (5-10%?).

https://i.imgur.com/cqaUSmf.jpg



This PCA map shows that they're reasonably close to French and North Italians and very far from North Africans and middle easterners.

[Longobarda]

Celts were mainly R1b(subclades L21, DF27 and U152) although they did carry other haplogroups such as G2a, I2a2b etc

Most scholars don't agree with you saying that R1b arrived into Europe during bronze age. They say it's a neolithic haplogroup.
And even if celts were R1b does not mean that they were the ones who carried that haplogroup into Europe. It was already present.
70131
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70131&d=1511742800

[Token]

Most scholars don't agree with you saying that R1b arrived into Europe during bronze age. They say it's a neolithic haplogroup.
It was first introduced in Western Europe by the late Neolithic - early Bronze Age period, when Indo-European speakers first entered Central Europe, this is the consensus among modern geneticists.

[Kelmendasi]

Most scholars don't agree with you saying that R1b arrived into Europe during bronze age. They say it's a neolithic haplogroup.
And even if celts were R1b does not mean that they were the ones who carried that haplogroup into Europe. It was already present.
70131
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70131&d=1511742800
Nope, nearly every scholar agrees with a Bronze Age IE exapansion. Neolithic haplogroups were G, J, E etc but not R1

[Longobarda]

Nope, nearly every scholar agrees with a Bronze Age IE exapansion. Neolithic haplogroups were G, J, E etc but not R1

We are talking about two distinct things, here Token identifies indoeuropeans with celts, which is not exact. Unless my theory can be true, i.e. scythians and celts were the same population. Hard to demonstrate because scythians mainly carried R1a-Z93, probably with some G,J, Q and other haplogroups in smaller amounts. SCYTHIANS, descendants of Yamnaya were the true indoeuropeans. Don't care if Herodotous starts talking about them only in 800 b.c.e. they did not bore under a cabbage. Strabo wrote that the more ancient populations living around the Mediterranean were the Ligurians, the Scythians and the Libu (apparently but not sure, an iberian tribe).
So, indoeuropeans must be differentiated by celts. The first mainly R1a, the secondo mainly R1b.

[Longobarda]

double

[Token]

By the way, Cristiano Viejo, look, Eupedia has published the NEW MAP of haplogroup J in Europe
This is mtDNA, you confused it with Y-DNA J2/J1.

[Grace O'Malley]

By the way, Cristiano Viejo, look, Eupedia has published the NEW MAP of haplogroup J in Europe

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-J-map.png

That's mtdna though not ydna.

R1b-M269 is definitely Bronze Age and in fact all the Yamnaya genomes so far have been R1b-M269. The Celts didn't spring up until approximately 2,000 years ago and it is thought groups like Unetice were pre-Celtic. Bell Beakers spread R1b and Celts were an R1b people.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here are maps showing the different subclades of R1b and where they are most prevalent.

Places like "the Isles" are predominantly R1b-L21 and Rathlin was L21 as was 8 out 10 Bell Beakers tested in Britain. British and Irish Celts are predominantly L21 (both Goidelic and Brythonic Celts).

http://www.whitelawlovefamilyhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.jpg

R1b-U106 appears to be associated with Germanic languages. There is a possibility that R1b-U106 might be more Corded Ware but we need more ancient genomes to work this out.

http://www.wdgolden.com/genes/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DNA-Golden-YDNA-U106-distribution-in-Europe.png

R1b-U152 appears more Italic and here is it's distribution.

http://a405.idata.over-blog.com/3/98/35/94/U152_Frequency_9-28-2011.png

R1b-DF27 is the most common in Iberia but R1b-DF27 has been found in a German Bell Beaker.

http://photos.geni.com/p13/b8/15/bb/09/5344483ea26a1574/haplogroup-r1b-df27_large.jpg

[Kouros]

Nope, nearly every scholar agrees with a Bronze Age IE exapansion. Neolithic haplogroups were G, J, E etc but not R1

I could have sworn reading about a neolithic clade though, I think it was in Anatolia or something

[Kelmendasi]

We are talking about two distinct things, here Token identifies indoeuropeans with celts, which is not exact. Unless my theory can be true, i.e. scythians and celts were the same population. Hard to demonstrate because scythians mainly carried R1a-Z93, probably with some G,J, Q and other haplogroups in smaller amounts. SCYTHIANS, descendants of Yamnaya were the true indoeuropeans. Don't care if Herodotous starts talking about them only in 800 b.c.e. they did not bore under a cabbage. Strabo wrote that the more ancient populations living around the Mediterranean were the Ligurians, the Scythians and the Libu (apparently but not sure, an iberian tribe).
So, indoeuropeans must be differentiated by celts. The first mainly R1a, the secondo mainly R1b.
The Yamna are wholly R1b when it comes to R1, not a single R1a has been found. Btw Scythians descend from the Andronovo cullture afaik not Yamna.

[Kelmendasi]

I could have sworn reading about a neolithic clade though, I think it was in Anatolia or something
R1b in Anatolia could be from the late Neolithic as IE peoples settled there earlier than in Europe. The clade you are thinking of could be R1b-Z2103 which is today most common in Balkanites and has been found among the Yamna as well as a Vucedol sample in Croatia

[Mortimer]

Am I close to Indo-Europeans or not?


http://s7.postimg.org/mbdfumhsr/Yamnaya_Admixture.png

You can see how close you are to some of these ancient samples by using the PuntDNAL K12 Ancient calc. It is a good way to see how Steppe shifted you are.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_HG 40.69
2 Anatolian_NF 34.43
3 Caucasus_HG 20.22
4 South_Asian 2.03
5 Near_East 1.56
6 Amerindian 0.65
7 Siberian 0.42

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 2.78
2 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 2.96
3 Unetice_EBA_I0117 3.27
4 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 4.04
5 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 6.51
6 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 6.68
7 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 8.76
8 Potapovka_I0419 10.38
9 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 11.99
10 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 12.07
11 Vatya_SG_RISE479 12.52
12 Srubnaya_I0430 12.88
13 Hungary_BA_I1502 13.6
14 Srubnaya_I0232 15.01
15 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 15.06
16 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 16.57
17 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 16.8
18 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 17.19
19 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 17.8
20 Scythian_IA_I0247 26.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.5% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.5% Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 0.73
2 92.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.4% Baalberge_MN_I0560 @ 0.83
3 93.2% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.8% Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 0.83
4 92.8% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.2% Epserstedt_MN_I0172 @ 0.88
5 93.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.4% Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 0.89
6 93% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7% Iceman_MN_SG @ 0.91
7 94% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6% Stuttgart_SG @ 0.92
8 92.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 7.4% Iberia_M_ I0406 @ 0.93
9 93.6% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.4% Iberia_EN_I0412 @ 0.96
10 93.3% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.7% Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 0.96
11 93.9% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 6.1% LBK_EN_I0054 @ 0.96
12 94.2% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 5.8% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 0.97
13 96.9% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 3.1% Anatolian Neolithic_I0745 @ 1.36
14 96.9% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + 3.1% Anatolian Neolithic_I0746 @ 1.36
15 91.9% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 8.1% Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 1.47
16 93.4% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 6.6% Stuttgart_SG @ 1.49
17 92.6% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 7.4% Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 1.5
18 93.2% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 6.8% LBK_EN_I0054 @ 1.5
19 92.2% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 7.8% Iceman_MN_SG @ 1.5
20 93.6% Unetice_EBA_I0117 + 6.4% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 1.51

Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 +50% Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 2.369731


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 +25% Unetice_EBA_I0117 +25% Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.210707


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.017889
2 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.093679
3 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.106953
4 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.146204
5 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.168182
6 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.175668
7 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.205691
8 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.210707
9 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.220376
10 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.221146
11 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.222816
12 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.233861
13 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.238596
14 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 1.278032
15 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 + Unetice_EBA_I0117 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.278936
16 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.346006
17 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.357954
18 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 1.381677
19 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 + Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 + Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 1.385093
20 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 + Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 + Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 1.385836


You can also use this:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

http://i65.tinypic.com/2qmzos1.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/2j451n9.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/e7ci8g.jpg

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus_HG 27.80
2 Anatolian_NF 27.38
3 European_HG 22.02
4 South_Asian 11.80
5 Near_East 6.61
6 East_Asian 2.56


Finished reading population data. 55 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 @ 21.289896
2 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 21.783785
3 Srubnaya_I0430 @ 22.231825
4 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 @ 23.056488
5 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 23.253361
6 Armenian_MBA @ 24.014526
7 Armenian_MBA @ 24.014526
8 Kostenki14_UP_SG @ 24.171312
9 Potapovka_I0419 @ 24.450779
10 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 24.620180
11 Scythian_IA_I0247 @ 24.705967
12 Unetice_EBA_I0117 @ 25.247490
13 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 @ 25.494156
14 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 @ 26.171787
15 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 @ 26.201527
16 Srubnaya_I0232 @ 27.125368
17 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 @ 27.176315
18 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 @ 27.303083
19 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 @ 27.735088
20 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 @ 27.767935

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Kostenki14_UP_SG +50% Armenian_MBA @ 10.336823


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Kostenki14_UP_SG +25% Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 +25% Kotias_Kide_KK @ 6.533556


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
1 Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Armenian_MBA @ 5.868000
2 Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Armenian_MBA @ 5.868000
3 Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.010768
4 Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.010768
5 Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.061516
6 Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.061516
7 Poltavka_I0440 + Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 + Ust_Ishim_DG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.090285
8 Poltavka_I0440 + Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 + Ust_Ishim_DG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.090285
9 Poltavka_I0440 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.124985
10 Poltavka_I0440 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.124985
11 Poltavka_I0440 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.261130
12 Poltavka_I0440 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.261130
13 Poltavka_I0440 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.262639
14 Poltavka_I0440 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.262639
15 Poltavka_I0440 + Epserstedt_MN_I0172 + Ust_Ishim_DG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.284543
16 Poltavka_I0440 + Epserstedt_MN_I0172 + Ust_Ishim_DG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.284543
17 Scythian_IA_I0247 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.299398
18 Scythian_IA_I0247 + Kostenki14_UP_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Armenian_MBA @ 6.299398
19 Poltavka_I0440 + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Ust_Ishim_DG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.321050
20 Poltavka_I0440 + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Ust_Ishim_DG + Armenian_MBA @ 6.321050

https://s2.postimg.org/li21flym1/k36similarity.jpghttps://s2.postimg.org/q3y5nzf09/k36similarity2.jpghttps://s2.postimg.org/ksj93avih/similarity3.jpg

[Longobarda]

The Yamna are wholly R1b when it comes to R1, not a single R1a has been found. Btw Scythians descend from the Andronovo cullture afaik not Yamna.

The Yamna culture or Yamnaya culture (traditionally known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture), was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 4000–2300 BC. The Yamna culture is identified with the late Proto-Indo-Europeans, and is the strongest candidate for the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European Language.
The people of the Yamnaya culture were the likely result of admixture between eastern European hunter-gatherers (via whom they also descend from the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or other, closely related people) and a Near Eastern people, with some research identifying the latter as hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus or a related people also related to Chalcolithic people from what is now Iran. Their culture is materially very similar to that of the people of the Afanasevo culture, their contemporaries in the Altai Mountains; furthermore, genetic tests have confirmed that the two groups are genetically indistinguishable.

They are also closely connected to later, Bronze Age cultures which spread throughout Europe and Central Asia, especially the Corded Ware people, but also the Bell Beakers as well as the peoples of the Sintashta, Andronovo, and Srubna cultures. In these groups, there are present several aspects of the Yamna culture (e.g., horse-riding, burial styles, and to some extent the pastoralist economy). Studies have also established that these populations derived large parts of their ancestry from the steppes.

Haak et al. (2015) conducted a genome wide study of 69 ancient skeletons from Europe and Russia. They concluded that Yamnaya autosomal characteristics are very close to the Corded Ware culture people, with an estimated a 73% ancestral contribution from the Yamnaya DNA in the DNA of Corded Ware skeletons from Germany. The same study estimated a 38.8–53.5% ancestral contribution of the Yamnaya in the DNA of modern Western, Central & Northern Europeans, and a 18.5–32.6% contribution in modern Southern Europeans; to a lesser extent it's found in Sardinians (7.1%) and Sicilians (5.9–11.6%). Haak et al. also note that their results "suggest" that haplogroups R1b and R1a "spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BC."

Autosomal tests also indicate that the Yamnaya are the most likely vector for "Ancient North Eurasian" admixture into Europe. "Ancient North Eurasian" is the name given in literature to a genetic component that represents descent from the people of the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or a population closely related to them.
According to Unterländer et al. (2017), Iron Age Scythians from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and an East Asian component.

Per Haak et al. (2015), in the modern populations of Eastern Europe the Yamnaya contribution range from 46.8–64.9% among Russians to 42.8% in Ukrainians. Finland has one the highest Yamnaya contribution in all of Europe (50.4–67.8%).

No celts named here.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Yamna_Man.jpg/800px-Yamna_Man.jpg

[Longobarda]

Moreover:

In 2009, a genetic study of ancient Siberian cultures, the Andronovo culture, the Karasuk culture, the Tagar culture and the Tashtyk culture, was published in Human Genetics. Ten individuals of the Andronovo horizon in southern Siberia from 1400 BC to 1000 BC were surveyed. Extractions of mtDNA from nine individuals were determined to represent two samples of haplogroup U4, one sample of Z1, one sample T1, one sample of U2e, one sample of T4, one sample of H, one sample of K2b and one sample of U5a1.
Extractions of Y-DNA from one individual was determined to belong to Y-DNA haplogroup C (but not C3), while the other two extractions were determined to belong to haplogroup R1a1a, which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans. Of the individuals surveyed, only two (or 22%) were determined to be Mongoloid, while seven (or 78%) were determined to be Caucasoid, with the majority being light-eyed and light-haired.
In June 2015, another genetic study surveyed one additional male and three female individuals of Andronovo culture. Extraction of Y-DNA from this individual was determined to belong to R1a1a1b2a2 (Z93- clade: Z2121). Extractions of mtDNA were determined to represent two samples of U4 and two samples of U2e.

[Token]

The Yamna culture or Yamnaya culture (traditionally known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture), was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 4000–2300 BC. The Yamna culture is identified with the late Proto-Indo-Europeans, and is the strongest candidate for the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European Language.
The people of the Yamnaya culture were the likely result of admixture between eastern European hunter-gatherers (via whom they also descend from the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or other, closely related people) and a Near Eastern people, with some research identifying the latter as hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus or a related people also related to Chalcolithic people from what is now Iran. Their culture is materially very similar to that of the people of the Afanasevo culture, their contemporaries in the Altai Mountains; furthermore, genetic tests have confirmed that the two groups are genetically indistinguishable.

They are also closely connected to later, Bronze Age cultures which spread throughout Europe and Central Asia, especially the Corded Ware people, but also the Bell Beakers as well as the peoples of the Sintashta, Andronovo, and Srubna cultures. In these groups, there are present several aspects of the Yamna culture (e.g., horse-riding, burial styles, and to some extent the pastoralist economy). Studies have also established that these populations derived large parts of their ancestry from the steppes.

Haak et al. (2015) conducted a genome wide study of 69 ancient skeletons from Europe and Russia. They concluded that Yamnaya autosomal characteristics are very close to the Corded Ware culture people, with an estimated a 73% ancestral contribution from the Yamnaya DNA in the DNA of Corded Ware skeletons from Germany. The same study estimated a 38.8–53.5% ancestral contribution of the Yamnaya in the DNA of modern Western, Central & Northern Europeans, and a 18.5–32.6% contribution in modern Southern Europeans; to a lesser extent it's found in Sardinians (7.1%) and Sicilians (5.9–11.6%). Haak et al. also note that their results "suggest" that haplogroups R1b and R1a "spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BC."

Autosomal tests also indicate that the Yamnaya are the most likely vector for "Ancient North Eurasian" admixture into Europe. "Ancient North Eurasian" is the name given in literature to a genetic component that represents descent from the people of the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or a population closely related to them.
According to Unterländer et al. (2017), Iron Age Scythians from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and an East Asian component.

[B]Per Haak et al. (2015), in the modern populations of Eastern Europe the Yamnaya contribution range from 46.8–64.9% among Russians to 42.8% in Ukrainians. Finland [COLOR=#FF0000]has one the highest Yamnaya contribution in all of Europe (50.4–67.8%).

[SIZE=4]No celts named here.
Yamnaya was completely R1b, we have no sample with R1a. When he said that both haplogroups spread from the east he was not referring specifically to Yamnaya, cultures like Sintashta-Petrovka, Andronovo and Europe's Corded Ware were R1a and they all were descend from a population closely related to Yamnaya located somewhere in the eastern Steppes.

[Longobarda]

R1a in Austria and Germany

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKkuKQ7XkAE6RyT.jpg

http://s30.postimg.org/vrrc18eap/germanat.png

[Kelmendasi]

The Yamna culture or Yamnaya culture (traditionally known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture), was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 4000–2300 BC. The Yamna culture is identified with the late Proto-Indo-Europeans, and is the strongest candidate for the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European Language.
The people of the Yamnaya culture were the likely result of admixture between eastern European hunter-gatherers (via whom they also descend from the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or other, closely related people) and a Near Eastern people, with some research identifying the latter as hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus or a related people also related to Chalcolithic people from what is now Iran. Their culture is materially very similar to that of the people of the Afanasevo culture, their contemporaries in the Altai Mountains; furthermore, genetic tests have confirmed that the two groups are genetically indistinguishable.

They are also closely connected to later, Bronze Age cultures which spread throughout Europe and Central Asia, especially the Corded Ware people, but also the Bell Beakers as well as the peoples of the Sintashta, Andronovo, and Srubna cultures. In these groups, there are present several aspects of the Yamna culture (e.g., horse-riding, burial styles, and to some extent the pastoralist economy). Studies have also established that these populations derived large parts of their ancestry from the steppes.

Haak et al. (2015) conducted a genome wide study of 69 ancient skeletons from Europe and Russia. They concluded that Yamnaya autosomal characteristics are very close to the Corded Ware culture people, with an estimated a 73% ancestral contribution from the Yamnaya DNA in the DNA of Corded Ware skeletons from Germany. The same study estimated a 38.8–53.5% ancestral contribution of the Yamnaya in the DNA of modern Western, Central & Northern Europeans, and a 18.5–32.6% contribution in modern Southern Europeans; to a lesser extent it's found in Sardinians (7.1%) and Sicilians (5.9–11.6%). Haak et al. also note that their results "suggest" that haplogroups R1b and R1a "spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BC."

Autosomal tests also indicate that the Yamnaya are the most likely vector for "Ancient North Eurasian" admixture into Europe. "Ancient North Eurasian" is the name given in literature to a genetic component that represents descent from the people of the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or a population closely related to them.
According to Unterländer et al. (2017), Iron Age Scythians from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and an East Asian component.

Per Haak et al. (2015), in the modern populations of Eastern Europe the Yamnaya contribution range from 46.8–64.9% among Russians to 42.8% in Ukrainians. Finland has one the highest Yamnaya contribution in all of Europe (50.4–67.8%).

No celts named here.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Yamna_Man.jpg/800px-Yamna_Man.jpg
R1a has never been found among the Yamna thus meaning that they are not linked to the cultures that you think are linked to it apart from the fact that they were both IE. Celts still were R1b in majority and not R1a

[Grace O'Malley]

The Yamna culture or Yamnaya culture (traditionally known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture), was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 4000–2300 BC. The Yamna culture is identified with the late Proto-Indo-Europeans, and is the strongest candidate for the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European Language.
The people of the Yamnaya culture were the likely result of admixture between eastern European hunter-gatherers (via whom they also descend from the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or other, closely related people) and a Near Eastern people, with some research identifying the latter as hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus or a related people also related to Chalcolithic people from what is now Iran. Their culture is materially very similar to that of the people of the Afanasevo culture, their contemporaries in the Altai Mountains; furthermore, genetic tests have confirmed that the two groups are genetically indistinguishable.

They are also closely connected to later, Bronze Age cultures which spread throughout Europe and Central Asia, especially the Corded Ware people, but also the Bell Beakers as well as the peoples of the Sintashta, Andronovo, and Srubna cultures. In these groups, there are present several aspects of the Yamna culture (e.g., horse-riding, burial styles, and to some extent the pastoralist economy). Studies have also established that these populations derived large parts of their ancestry from the steppes.

Haak et al. (2015) conducted a genome wide study of 69 ancient skeletons from Europe and Russia. They concluded that Yamnaya autosomal characteristics are very close to the Corded Ware culture people, with an estimated a 73% ancestral contribution from the Yamnaya DNA in the DNA of Corded Ware skeletons from Germany. The same study estimated a 38.8–53.5% ancestral contribution of the Yamnaya in the DNA of modern Western, Central & Northern Europeans, and a 18.5–32.6% contribution in modern Southern Europeans; to a lesser extent it's found in Sardinians (7.1%) and Sicilians (5.9–11.6%). Haak et al. also note that their results "suggest" that haplogroups R1b and R1a "spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BC."

Autosomal tests also indicate that the Yamnaya are the most likely vector for "Ancient North Eurasian" admixture into Europe. "Ancient North Eurasian" is the name given in literature to a genetic component that represents descent from the people of the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or a population closely related to them.
According to Unterländer et al. (2017), Iron Age Scythians from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and an East Asian component.

Per Haak et al. (2015), in the modern populations of Eastern Europe the Yamnaya contribution range from 46.8–64.9% among Russians to 42.8% in Ukrainians. Finland has one the highest Yamnaya contribution in all of Europe (50.4–67.8%).

No celts named here.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Yamna_Man.jpg/800px-Yamna_Man.jpg

Celts were a later culture Longobarda but thought to have emerged from Bell Beaker and Bell Beakers are descendants of Yamnaya. Regarding ANE populations like the Irish and Scots have quite a high amount.

[Longobarda]

posted by Grace O'Malley: Celts were a later culture Longobarda but thought to have emerged from Bell Beaker and Bell Beakers are descendants of Yamnaya. Regarding ANE populations like the Irish and Scots have quite a high amount.

Yes, but Yamnaya were R1b1b2-M269 + R1a which is predating the haplogroups of the North Atlantic, Ibero Atlantic, italo gaulish etc. (see the R1b tree here below). That Haplo coming from the Steppes passed through Anatolia, Southern Europe, eastern Europe, Central Europe, dividing then towards North Western Europe and south towards France, Spain and Italy (sorry not to be too precise). During all these passages the Haplogroup took from early bronze age until middle bronze age. So the celts and the bell beaker cannot be associated, but of course the haplogroup (mixed with R1a) is a common ancestor. By the way, the amount of steppe components in Spain is almost low.
p.s. Afanashevo culture (Scythians) is descendant from Yamnaya.

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https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70267&d=1512178022

70266
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70266&d=1512176426

[Longobarda]

R1a has never been found among the Yamna thus meaning that they are not linked to the cultures that you think are linked to it apart from the fact that they were both IE. Celts still were R1b in majority and not R1a

please read this interesting paper

http://adamsfamilydna.com/adams-y-dna-project/haplogroup-r1b1b2/

[Friends of Oliver Society]

The Iberi, in my view, could have been the yamnaya coming by sea from east to west. It is enough to see their images to understand they are eastern cultures. I've also made comparisons with the karakalpak dressing and the iberi's statues. Astonishing how much they do resemble.

Serious question, are you retarded?

[Friends of Oliver Society]

please read this interesting paper

http://adamsfamilydna.com/adams-y-dna-project/haplogroup-r1b1b2/

That's not a research paper, you dolt. It's some guy writing what he thinks.

You must be the dumbest person on this forum.