Would Germany be Italian today if...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Caesar didn't get assassinated or Varus didn't screw up so bad and lost the bulk of Germania legions..?

[Vasconcelos]

Don't think Romans ever had a real interest in conquering the Germanic areas.

[Great Dane]

That part of Germany west of the Rhine and south of the Danube was part of the Roman Empire but isn't Italian. England was part of the R.E. but isn't Italian. The only part of the Roman Empire that is Italian is Italy.

The Romans once extended their empire to the Elbe but decided the extra territory wasn't worth the trouble and withdrew back to the Rhine.

[Electronic God-Man]

Caesar didn't get assassinated or Varus didn't screw up so bad and lost the bulk of Germania legions..?

LOL no. As stated by the poster above, none of the other areas outside the Italian peninsula conquered by the Roman Empire are now "Italian". However, perhaps if Varus hadn't been crushed by Hermann there would have been a stronger Roman influence on those parts of modern Germany that had been conquered.

[poiuytrewq0987]

LOL no. As stated by the poster above, none of the other areas outside the Italian peninsula conquered by the Roman Empire are now "Italian". However, perhaps if Varus hadn't been crushed by Hermann there would have been a stronger Roman influence on those parts of modern Germany that had been conquered.

Good point. I suppose Germany would've become a Romance country similar to France had Rome successfully conquered Germania.

[Electronic God-Man]

Good point. I suppose Germany would've become a Romance country similar to France had Rome successfully conquered Germania.

It depends on what you mean by "successfully". They conquered many places that are not Romance countries today. ex. England.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It depends on what you mean by "successfully". They conquered many places that are not Romance countries today. ex. England.

It's because the Angles and Saxons wiped out much of Roman influence after they took control.

[Electronic God-Man]

It's because the Angles and Saxons wiped out much of Roman influence after they took control.

Of course. So? It was a land successfully conquered by Rome that is not a Romance country today. Who's to say the same wouldn't have happened in Germania?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Of course. So? It was a land successfully conquered by Rome that is not a Romance country today. Who's to say the same wouldn't have happened in Germania?

The conquest of Germania would have prevented much of the raids on Roman Britain by the Saxons and thus preserving the Roman order in Britain and much of Germania. So there would've been likely no one left to reconquer Germania from the Romans.

[Osweo]

The conquest of Germania would have prevented much of the raids on Roman Britain by the Saxons and thus preserving the Roman order in Britain and much of Germania. So there would've been likely no one left to reconquer Germania from the Romans.

SLAVS, silly!

And Britain wasn't very WELL Romanised. The Welsh kept their speech.

[Germanicus]

My theory is somewhat different; After conquerering Gaul, the Roman Legions returned to Rome with tons of gold, so much gold that the price of gold actually fell. This fear of triumph in Germania from conquering the Germanic tribes would certainly have meant more gold being looted, the empire feared the same would happen to the price of gold dropping never to recover for years, would have prevented Senatorial votes for conquest! :)

[Albion]

The conquest of Germania would have prevented much of the raids on Roman Britain by the Saxons and thus preserving the Roman order in Britain and much of Germania. So there would've been likely no one left to reconquer Germania from the Romans.

England probably would have developed as some sort of Celtic successor state to Britannia with Romance influences or broken up into warring states as Wales did.
If the Celts had managed to keep England then there'd be a Celtic bastion in NW Europe right now, the British Isles - from there there'd have probably been Celtic migrations to the continent during the migration period.
Northern Gaul would have perhaps been taken by Britons instead and we'd have perhaps seen Celtic instead of Germanic migrations over Europe.

[poiuytrewq0987]

England probably would have developed as some sort of Celtic successor state to Britannia with Romance influences or broken up into warring states as Wales did.
If the Celts had managed to keep England then there'd be a Celtic bastion in NW Europe right now, the British Isles - from there there'd have probably been Celtic migrations to the continent during the migration period.
Northern Gaul would have perhaps been taken by Britons instead and we'd have perhaps seen Celtic instead of Germanic migrations over Europe.

Thanks for the insight! It would have been interesting to see such scenario play out. The Celtics vs the Germanics. :D

[Albion]

Thanks for the insight! It would have been interesting to see such scenario play out. The Celtics vs the Germanics. :D

Where Celts and Germanics met it was always the Celts who were on the loosing side - just look at Southern Germany, Switzerland, Alsace, Flanders, Southern Netherlands and England. All formerly Celtic lands, now Germanic.
Sometimes I think the Celts only really managed to retain the lands the Germanics didn't really want.
The Anglo-Saxons and Vikings don't appear to have put too much effort into conquering Wales or Highland Scotland. English expansionism was only really restarted with the coming of the Normans.

[Arne]

My theory is somewhat different; After conquerering Gaul, the Roman Legions returned to Rome with tons of gold, so much gold that the price of gold actually fell. This fear of triumph in Germania from conquering the Germanic tribes would certainly have meant more gold being looted, the empire feared the same would happen to the price of gold dropping never to recover for years, would have prevented Senatorial votes for conquest! :)

Dream on...

[sturmwalkure]

I think roman influence is visible in the faces of people such as Goebbels and his siblings. He had an Italian influenced look. But I don't think it is a very common look among Germans.

[Albion]

Celts were more centralised and thus easier to conquer than early Germanics. Germanics just grouped into confederations during times of war and were much more mobile, some people even say nomadic (although that is a lie, transhumanist at best).

Celts on the other hand were broken up into tribes just as the Germanics were but had began to urbanise in some areas and had central power structures with oppidum in France (early towns) and hill fort strongholds in more conservative areas such as Britain. These could be targeted and subdued by the Romans more easily than the thinly spread Germanic villages, especially since the Germanic tribes were much more willing to up sticks and move.

Also it is likely that the Germanics were just stronger than the Celts, that Romans found Celts easier to conquer.

[xajapa]

No. No more than other former Roman territories are Italian.

[Albion]

This would be an interesting alternative history actually - Roman province of Germania and Romance-speaking Germany today and how it would have effected the Volkswanderung (Folk wandering).

Anyone like writing alternative histories?

[ficuscarica]

Don't think Romans ever had a real interest in conquering the Germanic areas.

That´s why they sent tens of thousands of soldiers in, built the limes and big cities in Cologne, Trier, etc?

[Dacul]

You do not know that Germany was first called "Holy Roman Empire"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

[Comte Arnau]

This would be an interesting alternative history actually - Roman province of Germania and Romance-speaking Germany today and how it would have effected the Volkswanderung (Folk wandering).

Anyone like writing alternative histories?

Well, it certainly would have been interesting to see if German would have been replaced by a new Romance language or if it would have just become like English, a very Romanized Germanic one.

I know the German language got several Latin words in those early times, such as Fenster, Kohl, Brief or kurz, but it's not comparable at all to the percentage of Latin in English. It would be three or four times bigger for sure. Maybe southern Germany would have been part of the Romance language family, with a new group close to Oil languages like Walloon in some of its evolution.

[Raikaswinþs]

I guess as much as Spaniards are Italians today :fponder:

[Peyrol]

It depends on what you mean by "successfully". They conquered many places that are not Romance countries today. ex. England.

Oh yes...no one single latin influence in modern english...:D

[Comte Arnau]

^ You forgot "place". :D

[Peyrol]

^ You forgot "place". :D

Mhhh i'm unsure about "place" ethymology...in italian we say "Luogo", from the latin "Loco/Locus"...could "place" be a trasversal-derived word from latin "Platea" (square)?

[Comte Arnau]

Mhhh i'm unsure about "place" ethymology...in italian we say "Luogo", from the latin "Loco/Locus"...could "place" be a trasversal-derived word from latin "Platea" (square)?

Aha, it is. :)

We also say lloc and reserve "plaça" for a post, a vacancy or a square. But the French say "place" in similar ways to "lieu".

[Osprey]

Germans were much too dispersed for the Romans to find and defeat.
And their warriors were too much for the average Roman in dense forests.

[Partiasn]

Germans were much too dispersed for the Romans to find and defeat.
And their warriors were too much for the average Roman in dense forests.

Arminius or Herman was trained by the Roman Legions, he was in effect a romanized German.

Germans had a strange relationship with the Empire, in the since that they were a trading partner with them, and they served in the legions, but they did not want direct Roman rule.

It should also be pointed out that the demographic advantage was on the side of Germanic Tribes not romans.

Meaning the Romans were the ones with the unstable crumbling family and corrupt society, not the Germans/Germanic Tribes.

Remember Rome lasted for some 900 years. The US is not even close to that as a civilization.

[Peyrol]

No real interest to keep this land...the same happened later with Mesopotamia and Armenia.

[Albion]

You do not know that Germany was first called "Holy Roman Empire"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

It didn't have much to do with the actual Roman Empire though. Germany was called Germania a long time before HRE and was once East Francia.

[Geminus]

The Germanic people were much taller and stronger than the Romans. They lacked sophisticated military tactics, but their knowledge was sufficient to lure the Romans into an ambush and in one vs one combat they wiped out the legions.
So in the past centuries with also superior military tactics and technology the German armies are a really formidable fighting force.

But if you assume Germania really had been conquered, the Roman empire probably would've lasted much longer. Probably almost all current European languages would be Latin descended.

[Peyrol]

The Germanic people were much taller and stronger than the Romans. They lacked sophisticated military tactics, but their knowledge was sufficient to lure the Romans into an ambush and in one vs one combat they wiped out the legions.
So in the past centuries with also superior military tactics and technology the German armies are a really formidable fighting force.

But if you assume Germania really had been conquered, the Roman empire probably would've lasted much longer. Probably almost all current European languages would be Latin descended.

Germanic-latin union have always generate very proud people...look at Lombardy, France, Venice, Belgium, etc.

I think that, beside ancient fight, cultural and ethnic interactions between our nations always produced good things (except in WWII, but this is anothern thing).

[Aurelian]

If the Romans had successfully colonized Germania, I agree that the language now would be Latin based, but beyond that, if Germania was a greater part of the Roman Empire, IMO, Germans would have been more fully integrated into Western Europe as opposed to sometimes perceiving itself as an outlier of western Europe.


Be that as it may, Western civilization is essentally a synthesis of Romano-Germanic culture. If Germany was fully part of The Roman world, the Germans rather than contributing to its collapse may rather have been instrumental in its rejuvenation.

[Foxy]

Germany would be Italy or Italy would be Germany if the Holy Roman Empire didn't fall. I am sure it would be the most advanced country in the world.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/willow/holy-roman-empire2.gif

[Foxy]

Well, it certainly would have been interesting to see if German would have been replaced by a new Romance language or if it would have just become like English, a very Romanized Germanic one.

I know the German language got several Latin words in those early times, such as Fenster, Kohl, Brief or kurz, but it's not comparable at all to the percentage of Latin in English. It would be three or four times bigger for sure. Maybe southern Germany would have been part of the Romance language family, with a new group close to Oil languages like Walloon in some of its evolution.

Ladin is a mix of ancient German, Latin and Italian.

1MfE8KC3YMA

Sounds like a sort of Romanian.

[Corvus]

Ladin is a mix of ancient German, Latin and Italian.

1MfE8KC3YMA

Sounds like a sort of Romanian.

That`s a wonderful language :thumb001:

[Geminus]

Germany would be Italy or Italy would be Germany if the Holy Roman Empire didn't fall. I am sure it would be the most advanced country in the world.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/willow/holy-roman-empire2.gif

But states with different nationalities in it often don't last very long (for example Germany and France originated of the Frankish empire, with Germans coming from the Germanic tribes and French from Gallo-Romans with Frankish ruling class)
The Holy Roman Empire had it's problem with the Italians as well as Rome had it's problems with the Germanic tribes ;)
I guess it only would've worked if one side fully assimilated the other one into their nation (what Germany did during the Ostsiedlung)

[Xenomorph]

Oh yes...no one single latin influence in modern english...:D

Actually, I think "one" comes from Old English, it's just that the numbers are all very similar in IE languages.

The reason why Rome did not conquer Germany permanently is not because they couldn't, but because they didn't want to. Unlike Gaul, Germania had hardly anything that could be considered cities, and Romans were very much interested in conquering urbanized areas. Yes, there was Teutoburg, but later, Tiberius went in and punished the Germans but did not reconquer the country; it just wasn't worth it. There was a similar issue with Scotland; Rome could have conquered it if it had really wanted to, but there was no point.