Is Arabic identity weak among Lebanese?

[LoLeL]

I have a Lebanese friend who does not identify as Arab. He says Lebanese are just Arabic-speaking people. Is his point of view popular among Lebanese? Because as I know Lebanese are the ones who flooded Arabic pop music and media. Most famous Arab singers are from Lebanon.

[Drusilla]

I can't reply as accurately as Lebanese folks would, because I'm not Lebanese and have never been to Lebanon. And I've only known Catholics from Lebanon. But as far as I know, those who say that Lebanese aren't Arabs claim that Lebanese are descended from Phoenicians and are not Arabs.

[LoLeL]

I can't reply as accurately as Lebanese folks would, because I'm not Lebanese and have never been to Lebanese. And I've only known Catholics from Lebanon. But as far as I know, those who say that Lebanese aren't Arabs claim that Lebanese are descended from Phoenicians and are not Arabs.

Yeah, that Phoenician nostalgia is strong in my friend too.

[amoora]

I can't reply as accurately as Lebanese folks would, because I'm not Lebanese and have never been to Lebanon. And I've only known Catholics from Lebanon. But as far as I know, those who say that Lebanese aren't Arabs claim that Lebanese are descended from Phoenicians and are not Arabs.

You’re exactly right. We say we’re Phoenicians. My family always taught me that.

The way I see it though, we are part of the Arab world. We speak Arabic (though some now say our language isn’t actually even a dialect of Arabic) While Maronites used to speak Syriac, we don’t anymore. We’re supposedly not genetically Arab but culturally we for sure are. Lebanese are kind of divided on this. We’re semitic middle eastern people in any case.

[Egyptian]

Lebanon, Egypt , Syria etc doesn't matter we all speak one language now.


You’re exactly right. We say we’re Phoenicians. My family always taught me that.

The way I see it though, we are part of the Arab world. We speak Arabic (though some now say our language isn’t actually even a dialect of Arabic) While Maronites used to speak Syriac, we don’t anymore. We’re supposedly not genetically Arab but culturally we for sure are. Lebanese are kind of divided on this. We’re semitic middle eastern people in any case.

t2borny el lahga el lebnanya :lol:

[Yaglakar]

I can't reply as accurately as Lebanese folks would, because I'm not Lebanese and have never been to Lebanon. And I've only known Catholics from Lebanon. But as far as I know, those who say that Lebanese aren't Arabs claim that Lebanese are descended from Phoenicians and are not Arabs.

People who ended up in Europe as students/employees from third-countries are outliers. They don't represent the population which they are originally springing from. 1. They speak English or some other foreign language 2. Their parents are most often from upper classes which affected their respective upbringing and socialization. 3. Including opinions on this site - you won't get an accurate picture.

[Kamal900]

It depends on the individual Lebanese, but I'd say that it's a divided issue, and Lebanon is already a very sectarian country.

[Bobby Martnen]

Lebanon, Egypt , Syria etc doesn't matter we all speak one language now.


Exactly, because Moslem "Egyptians" are mostly descended from Sub-Saharan Africans, Levantines, and Saudis.

Copts are the true Egyptians.

[Kamal900]

Exactly, because Moslem "Egyptians" are mostly descended from Sub-Saharan Africans, Levantines, and Saudis.

Copts are the true Egyptians.

Not really. Egyptian Muslims and Copts cluster closely to one another, and both of them cluster the closest to the Southern Levant and South-West Asia as a whole than to North Africans and other peoples. Though, the Copts did indeed preserve the language and culture of the ancient Egyptians.

[Egyptian]

Exactly, because Moslem "Egyptians" are mostly descended from Sub-Saharan Africans, Levantines, and Saudis.

Copts are the true Egyptians.

Ok Fatty :lol:

[Sikeliot]

Maronite Lebanese in the US tend to marry and associate with other Catholics, not necessarily other Arabs. They in my area marry Irish, Portuguese, Italian, French Americans and have assimilated into that sphere of influence.

[StonyArabia]

It's a divided issue, but they often claim to be Arab or whatever floats their boats. Here most of the Lebanese identify as Arab even if they are Christian. However they often would use the word Ar'ban or Beod'an as slur against Arabs from the Arabian peninsula and Bedouins. Both tones of the word are highly offensive and it's used savages, or uncouth or "Wild". Plus what I found interesting that sometimes the Lebanese would associate themselves with the Whites against other Arabs. They often believe the myth their Phoenicians, so let them have it. A lot of them want to be French to. I don't really like that country to be honest, and it only ever produced was entertainment.

[KMack]

A good friend of mine, his Grandparents immigrated from Lebanon, considers himself to be a white caucasian American. They keep some old customs alive at family gatherings though.

[StonyArabia]

A good friend of mine, his Grandparents immigrated from Lebanon, considers himself to be a white caucasian American. They keep some old customs alive at family gatherings though.

They are French wanna bees quite the sad lot really

[KMack]

They are French wanna bees quite the sad lot really

This family not the case. Others IDK

[happycow]

Lebanese are the one group in the levant that can get away with not identifying as arab.

[StonyArabia]

This family not the case. Others IDK

A lot of Lebanese want to be White and French, I have seen it, and it's very amplified with the Christian ones.


Lebanese are the one group in the levant that can get away with not identifying as arab.

lol, Lebanese want to be Europeans more than anything lol, far more than the other groups there that's way.

[Chaos One]

Since Brazil has more "Lebanese" than Lebanon itself, I think it's fun to talk about this.

If you ask any common Lebanese-Brazilian (or even Syrian-Brazilian), most of them don't deny their arabic origin. The point is: they don't want to be vinculated to other arabs like Saudis (and if Christian, at any group who has a majority muslim population, like Iraqis).

Of course, being arab in Brazil isn't so...bad as in US or Europe. We don't have a bad bias against them, and most Lebanese are seen as normal white guys here. Heck, our president is Lebanese-Brazilian, the governor of my state is Lebanese-Brazilian, the last mayor of São Paulo City was Lebanese-Brazilian...

[happycow]

A lot of Lebanese want to be White and French, I have seen it, and it's very amplified with the Christian ones.



lol, Lebanese want to be Europeans more than anything lol, far more than the other groups there that's way.

It doesn't help that other Arabs play into it. My great grandmother was lebanese and my mother even referred to her as a "different race." :rolleyes:

[StonyArabia]

Since Brazil has more "Lebanese" than Lebanon itself, I think it's fun to talk about this.

If you ask any common Lebanese-Brazilian (or even Syrian-Brazilian), most of them don't deny their arabic origin. The point is: they don't want to be vinculated to other arabs like Saudis (and if Christian, at any group who has a majority muslim population, like Iraqis).

Of course, being arab in Brazil isn't so...bad as in US or Europe. We don't have a bad bias against them, and most Lebanese are seen as normal white guys here. Heck, our president is Lebanese-Brazilian, the governor of my state is Lebanese-Brazilian, the last mayor of São Paulo City was Lebanese-Brazilian...

Possibly, but here Lebanese identify as Arab, even when they are Christian Maornite because they want minority status within Canada. Otherwise they try to say they are not Arab and blah blah blah lol.

[happycow]

Since Brazil has more "Lebanese" than Lebanon itself, I think it's fun to talk about this.

If you ask any common Lebanese-Brazilian (or even Syrian-Brazilian), most of them don't deny their arabic origin. The point is: they don't want to be vinculated to other arabs like Saudis (and if Christian, at any group who has a majority muslim population, like Iraqis).

Of course, being arab in Brazil isn't so...bad as in US or Europe. We don't have a bad bias against them, and most Lebanese are seen as normal white guys here. Heck, our president is Lebanese-Brazilian, the governor of my state is Lebanese-Brazilian, the last mayor of São Paulo City was Lebanese-Brazilian...

Many levantines who migrated to South America ditched Islam which made it easier to fit in. The US is far more accepting of arabs and muslims than you are likely to believe, at least by white people. its other minorities who are not very accepting of minorities.

[Voskos]

They see themselves as christian Arabs but on the other hand they don't seem to feel a cultural connection to peninsula Arabs, unlike Egyptian Copts and Palestinian Christians. That's my opinion.

[StonyArabia]

It doesn't help that other Arabs play into it. My great grandmother was lebanese and my mother even referred to her as a "different race." :rolleyes:

Palestinians are not that different from the Lebanese, however the Asli or noble Bedouin tribes within that area are quite genetically different from the non-Bedouin groups there. These people can be referred to us a different race. My great-great grandmother was for example from an Asli Howetiat tribe that lives in Jordan and parts of Syria, they are quite dark skinned ie brown, well my mom is mostly from the House of Al-Rashid from the Jebali clan of the Shammar tribe, they are pretty brownish nothing White about them. To be honest my mother's clan are somewhat hostile to White/Euros because of the British colonization, and the Anglo-American barbaric invasion of Iraq, they also tend to live in both Syria and Iraq. However many Bedouin tribes are quite hostile to Whites/Euros especially in Iraq and for a good reason.




Many levantines who migrated to South America ditched Islam which made it easier to fit in. The US is far more accepting of arabs and muslims than you are likely to believe, at least by white people. its other minorities who are not very accepting of minorities.

Yep that's true, the U.S has been more accepting and many MENA immigrants have integrated quite well there. In Canada it's hot and cold because it really depends on the area. I think this what makes big difference between us and Levantines, is that we are not willing to change our believes to just fit in, on the contrary we would stick to it. It's really hard for people from the Arabian peninsula to change their culture. We have very strong culture

[happycow]

Palestinians are not that different from the Lebanese, however the Asli or noble Bedouin tribes within that area are quite genetically different from the non-Bedouin groups there. These people can be referred to us a different race. My great-great grandmother was for example from an Asli Howetiat tribe that lives in Jordan and parts of Syria, they are quite dark skinned ie brown, well my mom is mostly from the House of Al-Rashid from the Jebali clan of the Shammar tribe, they are pretty brownish nothing White about them. To be honest my mother's clan are somewhat hostile to White/Euros because of the British colonization, and the Anglo-American barbaric invasion of Iraq, they also tend to live in both Syria and Iraq. However many Bedouin tribes are quite hostile to Whites/Euros especially in Iraq and for a good reason.





Yep that's true, the U.S has been more accepting and many MENA immigrants have integrated quite well there. In Canada it's hot and cold because it really depends on the area. I think this what makes big difference between us and Levantines, is that we are not willing to change our believes to just fit in, on the contrary we would stick to it. It's really hard for people from the Arabian peninsula to change their culture. We have very strong culture

Ah ok. I don't think my great grandmother was from any of those clans or tribes. She was a very light skinned woman.

Yes the US is very accepting. In South America the hostility towards islam was known, so the women would not even wear their hijabs or the arabs would just convert to catholicism or christianity. In the US women happily wear their hijabs, and those arabs who are supposedly westernized still have their culture and beliefs deeply ingrained into them. They hold onto them because of how accepting the country is. And it is highly likely for first generation. It is their children who begin to lose a sense of their culture, especially because they have very little connection to their homeworld. Not all of them, but it does happen.

[CertifiedCracker]

A lot of Lebanese want to be White and French, I have seen it, and it's very amplified with the Christian ones.



lol, Lebanese want to be Europeans more than anything lol, far more than the other groups there that's way.


So, Lebanese, who are generally light skinned and a fair lot are Christian, arent white? Never met one, nor have I met barely any Middle Easterners, except for a Palestinian, but from what Ive seen, they’re white. I dont think Middle Eastern automatically equals non-white. I have around 12.5%-25% West Asian and well, Im pale and I have green eyes.

[Dandelion]

People associate with whom they want to.

[happycow]

So, Lebanese, who are generally light skinned and a fair lot are Christian, arent white? Never met one, nor have I met barely any Middle Easterners, except for a Palestinian, but from what Ive seen, they’re white. I dont think Middle Eastern automatically equals non-white. I have around 12.5%-25% West Asian and well, Im pale and I have green eyes.

I had always considered white=european. Middle easterners are not european. lol. But the US census lumps MENA with Whites. And I grew up being called white boy and gringo by my peers. so..... lol

[KMack]

Many levantines who migrated to South America ditched Islam which made it easier to fit in. The US is far more accepting of arabs and muslims than you are likely to believe, at least by white people. its other minorities who are not very accepting of minorities.

Lebanese besides going to S. America also came to the USA. The first wave was in the first half of the 1900's, it was about 100,000 and they mainly Christians. The Muslims from there came much later. For Brazil,
Between 1884 and 1933, 130,000 Lebanese people immigrated to Brazil—65% of them were Catholics (Maronite Catholics and Melkite Catholics), 20% were Eastern Orthodox, and 15% were Muslims (Shia, Sunni, and Druze)

Some went Mexico, Argentina etc also.

[happycow]

Lebanese besides going to S. America also came to the USA. The first wave was in the first half of the 1900's, it was about 100,000 and they mainly Christians. The Muslims from there came much later. For Brazil,
Between 1884 and 1933, 130,000 Lebanese people immigrated to Brazil—65% of them were Catholics (Maronite Catholics and Melkite Catholics), 20% were Eastern Orthodox, and 15% were Muslims (Shia, Sunni, and Druze)

Some went Mexico, Argentina etc also.

Many people from my dads village in Palestine went to Brazil and Venezuela. Most of my dads family right now resides in Venezuela. Some also went to Chile.

[Annie999]

My great grandpa was a Christian Lebanese, he was very proud of his roots and told stories about Lebanon and his culture but he never identified as Arab (he never said he wasn't one either, just never mentioned it).

[CertifiedCracker]

I had always considered white=european. Middle easterners are not european. lol. But the US census lumps MENA with Whites. And I grew up being called white boy and gringo by my peers. so..... lol

Well, I think it depends on upbringing and where you come from. No one ever woulda guessed my family is Middle Eastern, but there it is. Theres some darker members of my family but more of a Mediterranean dark, rather than black or Mexican. Everyone in my family has green or blue eyes. I have black hair though, but im the only one in my family with black hair, other than my dad. We are all literally just white trash, so the Middle Eastern was a surprise. I think GEDMatch linked us to Saudis, Moroccans, and Assyrians.

[StonyArabia]

People associate with whom they want to.

Of course you love uncle Toms don't you?

[Dandelion]

Of course you love uncle Toms don't you?

It's no uncle Tom if you genuinely feel a way about your own culture. It's being yourself.

In my opinion the complexed one is the one projecting rather.

[Aren]

I certainly hope so. There's little Arab blood in the Lebanese afterall.

[StonyArabia]

Ah ok. I don't think my great grandmother was from any of those clans or tribes. She was a very light skinned woman.

My point is that Lebanese and Palestinians are very similar, they are not two different groups. However the Bedouin tribal groups especially those that are Asli are very distinct by both culture, and even race if you will. That said we don't identify as White, because we see White as well Europeans, and many of those tribes are not fond of them due to historical reasons namely British colonization and the Anglo-American invasion of Iraq.


Yes the US is very accepting. In South America the hostility towards islam was known, so the women would not even wear their hijabs or the arabs would just convert to catholicism or christianity. In the US women happily wear their hijabs, and those arabs who are supposedly westernized still have their culture and beliefs deeply ingrained into them. They hold onto them because of how accepting the country is. And it is highly likely for first generation. It is their children who begin to lose a sense of their culture, especially because they have very little connection to their homeworld. Not all of them, but it does happen.

Yeah in South America there is forced assimilation, lets so in North America which is actually good. I think that if South America gotten Mideasterners from the Arabian peninsula, it would have been different out come than the ones that they have got from the Levant. However yea but North American culture is powerful but it does not erase their identity quite easily like that of South America.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Lebanese christians are arabs like mizrahi jews are arabs, just because they speak arab.

In Bible Jesus calls the inhabitants of Lebanon of Greco-Syro-Phoenician-Canaanean (dogs).

[StonyArabia]

It's no uncle Tom if you genuinely feel a way about your own culture. It's being yourself.

In my opinion the complexed one is the one projecting rather.

They are Uncle Toms because they hate themselves, and they want to be European, especially in the case of the Lebanese. The Lebanese want to be French. If you are implying I have complex, your quite wrong my friend, since I take pride in my culture and ancestry. The Lebanese also like to utter nonsense from their colonial masters they were Phoenicians lol, a people who are long gone before the Christian era. Anyways Lebanon is one of the least achieving nations in the world, and they only have produced artists nothing of worth or value like scientists which other Mideast nations have. Of course these Uncle Toms would be good European proxy like they have always been. Lebanese are known for their sycophant behavior toward their rulers.

[CertifiedCracker]

They are Uncle Toms because they hate themselves, and they want to be European, especially in the case of the Lebanese. The Lebanese want to be French. If you are implying I have complex, your quite wrong my friend, since I take pride in my culture and ancestry. The Lebanese also like to utter nonsense from their colonial masters they were Phoenicians lol, a people who are long gone before the Christian era. Anyways Lebanon is one of the least achieving nations in the world, and they only have produced artists nothing of worth or value like scientists which other Mideast nations have. Of course these Uncle Toms would be good European proxy like they have always been. Lebanese are known for their sycophant behavior toward their rulers.

You sound like a coon

[StonyArabia]

You sound like a coon

LOL. I am not Black, I am Middle Eastern

[Pulsa Dinura]

They are Uncle Toms because they hate themselves, and they want to be European, especially in the case of the Lebanese.
Historically, when did any Lebanese claim to be European? maybe it’s only in your head, in your head, Zombie, zombie, zombie, ie, ie....


The Lebanese want to be French.
So not only we want to be Europeans, but French too…Great! where from exactly? Lille? Strasbourg? Marseille? Bordeaux? Dijon?


If you are implying I have complex, your quite wrong my friend, since I take pride in my culture and ancestry. .
So since you take pride in your culture and ancestry, let other people take pride in their culture and ancestry too.


The Lebanese also like to utter nonsense from their colonial masters they were Phoenicians lol, a people who are long gone before the Christian era.
A whole population cannot disappear unless they’re nomads or bedouins. And you know, we’re not nomads nor bedouins.

It’s the same people whose ancestors spoke Canaanite, Aramaic , Syriac, Greek, Latin and recently Arabic.

The language may change, not the people.


Anyways Lebanon is one of the least achieving nations in the world
Yeah, and that’s why Lebanese are among the most successful worldwide and of U.S. immigrants.

What did your nation achieve?


and they only have produced artists nothing of worth or value
What did your nation produce, with or without value?


like scientists which other Mideast nations have. Scientists from which other Middle Eastern countries?


Of course these Uncle Toms would be good European proxy like they have always been.

Lebanese are known for their sycophant behavior toward their rulers
You’re saying this as a proud Arab?

Greetings to T. E. Lawrence :rolleyes:

[MsSPF]

It depends on the individual Lebanese, but I'd say that it's a divided issue, and Lebanon is already a very sectarian country.

That. Lebanon is a very sectarian country with many faiths (Maronites, Shia Muslims, Sunni Muslims, Druzes, Greek Orthodox etc...) and the previous conflicts (especially the civil war) and the actual political issues influenced greatly how the communities identify themselves.
Many Christians like to link themselves with Phoenicians... Muslims less (but it exists). The "ideology" was born with the repartition of Greater Syria when French lead a mandate in the region, probably created in opposition to Arab nationalism. Like most nationalisms at that time, they have been used to influence & shape the region's borders at the easiest convenience of the foreign and local powerful players (refering to Sykes Picot, the end of the Ottoman empire, Zionism & the creation of Israel, Arab leaders of the Arab revolt between 1916/1918 etc...).
The "creation of Lebanon" has been justified anyway to make a Christian majority state in the region. This probably also explains partially why many Christian Lebanese embrace more their Phoenician identity (at the origin of the "Lebanese nationalism" & its revendications as a state), were "less opposed" to the mandate than their neighbors & are more francophiles.
I also think that some Christians like to distance themselves from "Arabs" (and you will find it also among Copts or other Christians in the Middle East) because most people nowadays associate and confuse "Arabism" with Islam, even Arabs & Muslims make the confusion especially when seeing how Wahabbism/Salafism ideologies (very "Arab nationalist-imperalist oriented") are oppressive to the "Arab world" and even more to the "Arab" diaspora since many decades. You even find this kind of "ideologies to distance a group of people from Arabs" in Maghreb (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia), not on religious basis but language/regional one. To be completely honest, being associated anyway to Arabs nowadays in some places can be very "crippling" considering the actual events in the World... no need to lie and pretend it does not have an impact
It has not been always like that though, especially when you know that Michel Aflaq, who was a Christian Syrian, was one of the leader of pan-arabism/Baas party... but thats another story, Syrian in general embrace more "the Arab identity" because of the history of the country. Also compared to Lebanese, they were firmly against the French mandate and opposed to them.

Are Lebanese (no matter their faiths) Arabs ethnically like Saudis, Qataris, Yemenis are etc... ? Certainly not and they are right to say they are not Arabs ethnically speaking. Are they really Phoenicians? Lebanon is the country where Phoenicia prospered and its heritage in the region is important but identifying to a civilization that existed and disappeared thousand of years ago, does it really make a sense? For sure, they really are descendants of the Phoenicians but using this word is maybe obselete?
At the same time, Lebanon definitely share cultural/historical/ecominic affinities with its Arab neighbors and now, being Arab means you speak an Arabic dialect and nothing else... those who think they really are Arabs, are really brainwashed because even our grand parents knew they were not...
Even these dialects are very different between each other, that they could even be considered as "languages". "Arabs" from Morocco to Iraq are really different between each others ethnically and culturally except they share similar languages & cultural references & were part of the same empire many centuries ago... based on Islam. For me, it makes only sense to divide the "Arab world" this way : the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, maybe a part of Mauritania : Berber), Egypt, North Sudan (Egyptian world), Levant (Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan), Gulf Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Kuweit, Bahrein, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Qatar) and maybe Iraq on its own? Iraq is very divided country anyway, probably the most divided on in the MENA region

[Sacrificed Ram]

The identification of (christian) lebaneses with phoenicians isn't an allucination, it is a genetical fact, they are still 95% identical with canaanites, as found on remains in Israel:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?216494-Cana-anite-DNA

Also is obvious their cluster with jews and their distance from arabs:
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003316.g002&size=large

Language and cultural apects are weak argumments, because a sephardic jew that speaks a spanish dialect, doesn't make him spanish, a ashkenazi jew that speaks a german dialect, doesn't make him german and a mizrahi jew that speaks arab, doesn't make him arab (eh, despite some mizrahi are derivative of pre-islamic arabs that converted to judaism).

[CertifiedCracker]

LOL. I am not Black, I am Middle Eastern

Never said you were a coon, I said you sound like one.

[KMack]

They are Uncle Toms because they hate themselves, and they want to be European, especially in the case of the Lebanese. The Lebanese want to be French. If you are implying I have complex, your quite wrong my friend, since I take pride in my culture and ancestry. The Lebanese also like to utter nonsense from their colonial masters they were Phoenicians lol, a people who are long gone before the Christian era. Anyways Lebanon is one of the least achieving nations in the world, and they only have produced artists nothing of worth or value like scientists which other Mideast nations have. Of course these Uncle Toms would be good European proxy like they have always been. Lebanese are known for their sycophant behavior toward their rulers.

What is wrong with wanting to live in Europe and being European or American. People assimilate.
You live in the USA, do you get around on a horse with and rifle dressed like the men in you signature photo? Or did you go the way of Uncle Tom? Asking for a friend of course lol.

[Sacrificed Ram]

The Lebanese also like to utter nonsense from their colonial masters they were Phoenicians lol, a people who are long gone before the Christian era.

Oh, if phoenicians are extinct, then jews are long time also, the situation is the same, israeli state is a farse, but probably after sucessive humiliations arabs defecate of fear in their pants before say something against jews. Even some bedouins fought against other arabs on israli side:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Battalion

[happycow]

What is wrong with wanting to live in Europe and being European or American. People assimilate.
You live in the USA, do you get around on a horse with and rifle dressed like the men in you signature photo? Or did you go the way of Uncle Tom? Asking for a friend of course lol.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Blacks and other minority groups are practically incapable of pointing out the problems that plague their community without being deemed a self hater or an uncle tom. It's sad.

[Kamal900]

That. Lebanon is a very sectarian country with many faiths (Maronites, Shia Muslims, Sunni Muslims, Druzes, Greek Orthodox etc...) and the previous conflicts (especially the civil war) and the actual political issues influenced greatly how the communities identify themselves.
Many Christians like to link themselves with Phoenicians... Muslims less (but it exists). The "ideology" was born with the repartition of Greater Syria when French lead a mandate in the region, probably created in opposition to Arab nationalism. Like most nationalisms at that time, they have been used to influence & shape the region's borders at the easiest convenience of the foreign and local powerful players (refering to Sykes Picot, the end of the Ottoman empire, Zionism & the creation of Israel, Arab leaders of the Arab revolt between 1916/1918 etc...).
The "creation of Lebanon" has been justified anyway to make a Christian majority state in the region. This probably also explains partially why many Christian Lebanese embrace more their Phoenician identity (at the origin of the "Lebanese nationalism" & its revendications as a state), were "less opposed" to the mandate than their neighbors & are more francophiles.
I also think that some Christians like to distance themselves from "Arabs" (and you will find it also among Copts or other Christians in the Middle East) because most people nowadays associate and confuse "Arabism" with Islam, even Arabs & Muslims make the confusion especially when seeing how Wahabbism/Salafism ideologies (very "Arab nationalist-imperalist oriented") are oppressive to the "Arab world" and even more to the "Arab" diaspora since many decades. You even find this kind of "ideologies to distance a group of people from Arabs" in Maghreb (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia), not on religious basis but language/regional one. To be completely honest, being associated anyway to Arabs nowadays in some places can be very "crippling" considering the actual events in the World... no need to lie and pretend it does not have an impact
It has not been always like that though, especially when you know that Michel Aflaq, who was a Christian Syrian, was one of the leader of pan-arabism/Baas party... but thats another story, Syrian in general embrace more "the Arab identity" because of the history of the country. Also compared to Lebanese, they were firmly against the French mandate and opposed to them.

Are Lebanese (no matter their faiths) Arabs ethnically like Saudis, Qataris, Yemenis are etc... ? Certainly not and they are right to say they are not Arabs ethnically speaking. Are they really Phoenicians? Lebanon is the country where Phoenicia prospered and its heritage in the region is important but identifying to a civilization that existed and disappeared thousand of years ago, does it really make a sense? For sure, they really are descendants of the Phoenicians but using this word is maybe obselete?
At the same time, Lebanon definitely share cultural/historical/ecominic affinities with its Arab neighbors and now, being Arab means you speak an Arabic dialect and nothing else... those who think they really are Arabs, are really brainwashed because even our grand parents knew they were not...
Even these dialects are very different between each other, that they could even be considered as "languages". "Arabs" from Morocco to Iraq are really different between each others ethnically and culturally except they share similar languages & cultural references & were part of the same empire many centuries ago... based on Islam. For me, it makes only sense to divide the "Arab world" this way : the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, maybe a part of Mauritania : Berber), Egypt, North Sudan (Egyptian world), Levant (Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan), Gulf Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Kuweit, Bahrein, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Qatar) and maybe Iraq on its own? Iraq is very divided country anyway, probably the most divided on in the MENA region

Sounds fair, I guess.

[StonyArabia]

Historically, when did any Lebanese claim to be European? maybe it’s only in your head, in your head, Zombie, zombie, zombie, ie, ie....

Those are the facts.



So not only we want to be Europeans, but French too…Great! where from exactly? Lille? Strasbourg? Marseille? Bordeaux? Dijon?

They do, they often say Beirut Paris of the Mideast lol.



So since you take pride in your culture and ancestry, let other people take pride in their culture and ancestry too.

Damn right. However if they truly were, we would not have been having this discussion.


A whole population cannot disappear unless they’re nomads or bedouins. And you know, we’re not nomads nor bedouins.

Nope, population can disappear and good example of the depopulation that happened in Iraq after the Mongol invasion. Arabian Bedouins replaced the population as whole there. Not to mention that the Iranic migrations also replaced the Assyrians there especially in the North. So populations can be replaced.


It’s the same people whose ancestors spoke Canaanite, Aramaic , Syriac, Greek, Latin and recently Arabic.
The language may change, not the people.

Most often the basic stock does not change, but their would be significant admixture. Hence why Anatolian Turks actually have significant Turkic admixture.



Yeah, and that’s why Lebanese are among the most successful worldwide and of U.S. immigrants.

Some but not all of them. Iraqis, Yemenites, and Palis are very successful as well.


What did your nation achieve?

We are the fathers of robotics, because Al-Jazari was an northern Iraqi Arab, certainly something greater than Lebanon ever produced. Al-Jazari was most likely from the Bedouin tribes that settled the region like the Taghalib or possible the Tayy


What did your nation produce, with or without value?

I already told you we are the fathers of robotics, and even the camera was invented by an Iraqi Arab Ibn Al-Haythm


Scientists from which other Middle Eastern countries?

Iraq, Yemen, and North Africa.



You’re saying this as a proud Arab?

The British came through deceit and turmoil in the region, due to the decay of the Ottoman empire. However the Al-Sauds already had warred with the Ottomans long before the British set foot there. Also the British ships often incurred huge damages in the Arab Gulf region. Also the British could not colonize Arabia directly, so they did it indirect manner. Don't compare us to you Levantine. We also defeated the Portuguese and even took over their African colonies, which was quite humiliating for them.


Greetings to T. E. Lawrence :rolleyes:

T.E Lawrence had little influence and only upon some of the Arabian tribesmen. My mother's tribe opposed British influence in the region, and actually have put up a good fight against the British in both the Arabian peninsula and Iraq. Also it's due to the British exile they now live in northern Iraq and parts of Syria. Also the House of Saud were never good Anglo-American puppets, because they often told them to f off when things got serious and also not to mention King Fisal gave them the finger, when he blockaded the oil on the West, because he stood up for justice and freedom.

Do you think a comment from king Fisal shows him to be a puppet? On the contrary hence why he was assassinated

https://s31.postimg.org/wuna18v8r/ba67901c4eae7aebd6fa2e5e38fbe5b1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Sacrificed Ram]

Saudis need western weapons, without western support, they will fight again with arches and arrows, while their enemies nuke them. Good luck with radioactive milk.

[StonyArabia]

That. Lebanon is a very sectarian country with many faiths (Maronites, Shia Muslims, Sunni Muslims, Druzes, Greek Orthodox etc...) and the previous conflicts (especially the civil war) and the actual political issues influenced greatly how the communities identify themselves.
Many Christians like to link themselves with Phoenicians... Muslims less (but it exists). The "ideology" was born with the repartition of Greater Syria when French lead a mandate in the region, probably created in opposition to Arab nationalism. Like most nationalisms at that time, they have been used to influence & shape the region's borders at the easiest convenience of the foreign and local powerful players (refering to Sykes Picot, the end of the Ottoman empire, Zionism & the creation of Israel, Arab leaders of the Arab revolt between 1916/1918 etc...).
The "creation of Lebanon" has been justified anyway to make a Christian majority state in the region. This probably also explains partially why many Christian Lebanese embrace more their Phoenician identity (at the origin of the "Lebanese nationalism" & its revendications as a state), were "less opposed" to the mandate than their neighbors & are more francophiles.
I also think that some Christians like to distance themselves from "Arabs" (and you will find it also among Copts or other Christians in the Middle East) because most people nowadays associate and confuse "Arabism" with Islam, even Arabs & Muslims make the confusion especially when seeing how Wahabbism/Salafism ideologies (very "Arab nationalist-imperalist oriented") are oppressive to the "Arab world" and even more to the "Arab" diaspora since many decades. You even find this kind of "ideologies to distance a group of people from Arabs" in Maghreb (Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia), not on religious basis but language/regional one. To be completely honest, being associated anyway to Arabs nowadays in some places can be very "crippling" considering the actual events in the World... no need to lie and pretend it does not have an impact
It has not been always like that though, especially when you know that Michel Aflaq, who was a Christian Syrian, was one of the leader of pan-arabism/Baas party... but thats another story, Syrian in general embrace more "the Arab identity" because of the history of the country. Also compared to Lebanese, they were firmly against the French mandate and opposed to them.

Are Lebanese (no matter their faiths) Arabs ethnically like Saudis, Qataris, Yemenis are etc... ? Certainly not and they are right to say they are not Arabs ethnically speaking. Are they really Phoenicians? Lebanon is the country where Phoenicia prospered and its heritage in the region is important but identifying to a civilization that existed and disappeared thousand of years ago, does it really make a sense? For sure, they really are descendants of the Phoenicians but using this word is maybe obselete?
At the same time, Lebanon definitely share cultural/historical/ecominic affinities with its Arab neighbors and now, being Arab means you speak an Arabic dialect and nothing else... those who think they really are Arabs, are really brainwashed because even our grand parents knew they were not...
Even these dialects are very different between each other, that they could even be considered as "languages". "Arabs" from Morocco to Iraq are really different between each others ethnically and culturally except they share similar languages & cultural references & were part of the same empire many centuries ago... based on Islam. For me, it makes only sense to divide the "Arab world" this way : the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, maybe a part of Mauritania : Berber), Egypt, North Sudan (Egyptian world), Levant (Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan), Gulf Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Kuweit, Bahrein, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Qatar) and maybe Iraq on its own? Iraq is very divided country anyway, probably the most divided on in the MENA region

Iraq is not divided as people think it is. People don't understand that Iraq has always been a tribal society. Having no tribal affiliation in Iraq can be problematic. In fact tribal affiliation is much greater than sectarian one. The sectarian issue is based on religious differences, within each sect claiming to be the truth and thus it's a religious problem. Plus you have some tribal wars if you will between the respective sectarian group, for example there might be conflict between two Sunni Arab tribes, or two Shia Arab tribes. They also would united against strangers. However there is indeed a divide and ethnic one, the Arab groups have an issue with Kurds. Kurds, and Sunni Arabs have problem with land ownership, and claim the that the Kurds are expanding more Westwards, well many Shia Arabs who settled in the North came from the deep South, especially in Kirkuk, were expelled following the 2003 invasion, and still remember this.

Plus most Iraqi Shias strong identify with their Arabian tribal roots, they took refuge in Saudi Arabia before Iran, despite sectarian differences. After all blood is thicker than water. Only the Shia "Arabs" who lack tribal affiliation have a problem with this, because they were not accepted and their origins are outside the country being of Iranian, Levantine, and other origins. These people tend to live mostly in Baghdad, and certain pockets in central Iraq.

Well in the north many of the Arabs have tribal affiliations, and are of Bedouin stock, meaning they have strong blood ties to the Iraqi Shia Arabs, you have such tribes as Shammar and Dafhair both who have moved from the Southern regions and others who have lived since the beginning like the Taghlib, Tayy, in the case of th Dafhair they have converted from Shiaism to Sunnism. Well many of the Shammar clans left the Southern regions, because they did not want to be Shias. You also have non-tribal affiliated Arabs whose origin is probably mix of Islamized Assyrians, Kurds, and what not.

Then you have the Turkmen minority who themselves are divided into sectarian basis more so than the Arab population for a variety of reasons. Being highly marginalized after the 2003 invasion, many of them joined various religious so called Sunni groups. They also wanted to have the score settled with their Shia oppressors in their mind. The Sunni Turkmens speak in Anatolian dialect, well the Shia Turkmens speak more Azeri like.

In Iraq you have the Asli tribes meaning noble, those tribes trace their origins to the Arabian peninsula such as Shammar, Anizah, Utubah,Mutar, ect. These tribesmen have very high status within Iraqi society.

Plus the conversion to Shiaism was recent thing in Iraq, and it's mostly was encouraged by the British, because of the Saudi expansions. The Sauds had already attacked Iraq before, and it took great for the Ottomans to get them out. This is the only reason in fact most of the conversions to Shiaism occurred in the 19th century. The Arabian tribes that did not convert to Shiaism because they continued to live in their Bedouin ways, stayed Sunni from the Malaki school. In one tribe some clans became Sunni, well others became Shia, so it's not clear cut. Well those in the North and West who are Sunni are mostly Hanafi school, well small minority near Jordan are Shafi.

Despite all of these differences based on tribal affiliation and sectarian identity, Iraqis still regard themselves to be of Arabian stock and often proudly proclaim their Bedouin origins.

We really take the idea of I against my brothers, Me and my brothers against our cousins, I and my brothers and my cousins against the strangers to heart. There are many examples of it in Iraq.

As where we are culturally we are close to the Arabian peninsula in total, but there are influences from neighbouring regions. To compare us with the Lebanese is a fallacy, because none of us Sunni or Shia denies his Arabian roots, well like I said unless they have no tribal affiliation they might behave in that manner and those people are minority.

Not to mention it was mostly the traitors, the sycophants, people who lacked any sense of pride and dignity and were given lots of money, and good portion of them lacked tribal affiliation opened the gates to the Anglo-American forces. Also the Anglo-American forces had very hard time in the tribal areas in the southern region, but it was mostly in the West where the Anglo-American forces faced heavy damages, and the rest is well known what happens.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Iran already shoot rockets in Saudi Arabia via Yemen. If wasn't the a american defensive missiles, this rocket would hit saudis, imagine if it had a nuclear ogive... Saudis even thanked americans...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfVu5rNVPPI
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41872995

[Pulsa Dinura]

Those are the facts.
I have no problem as long as you support your argument with evidence.

Any quote, reference or citation ?

If you have none, then, as I said previously; it’s all in your head, in your head, Zombie, zombie, zombie, ie, ie……


They do, they often say Beirut Paris of the Mideast lol.

Lol. It’s not Lebanese who said that about their country:

"For bewitched European Orientalists, Lebanon was once considered the Switzerland of the Levant, and its capital, Beirut, the "Paris of the Middle East.”

https://www.paragkhanna.com/home/road-maps-success-could-return-lebanon-to-its-former-glory-as-switzerland-of-the-levant


Back in the 1960ies Lebanon was called the "Switzerland of the Levant" because of its Banking system and "Paris of the Middle East" because of its vibrant cultural and intellectual life.


Damn right. However if they truly were, we would not have been having this discussion. and, why are you worried how Lebanese label themselves?

It is a well-known Arabian tradition: those who are different from us should be decimated.

Nobody is denying your Arabic culture and identity, so don’t stick your label on others.


Nope, population can disappear…... So populations can be replaced. Great, now you have to support your argument with historical facts and dates on how the depopulation of Phoenicians happened.


I’m all ears.


We are the fathers of robotics, because Al-Jazari was an northern Iraqi Arab, certainly something greater than Lebanon ever produced.

Arabs are the Fathers of robotics? Is it an Arab thing to appropriate other people’s discoveries and inventions as being theirs?

Abstract:

Al-Jazari was a 12th Century Turkish Scientist, Engineer and writer. His full name was Badi Al-Zaman AbulI-Izz Ibn Ismail Ibn Al-Razzaz Al-Jazari. He lived in Diyarbakir region in Turkey (1206 AD). As his town name is Cizre, the modern Turkish scripting of Jizra , his last name is known as Jazari (Uzun, 1997)…. He served the Artuks a Seljuks dynasty in Diyarbakir, as a chief engineer – as did his father before him……

Introduction:

Abu Al Izz Ismail al Jazari lived in Amid, that is called now Diyarbakir in South-east of Anatolia in Turkey, (12th century) during Artuk Seljuqs period. He had spent twenty five years in service of Seljuqs Sultans (Nasiruddin Abul Fath Muhammed bin Karaaslan and his father).

The Artuks were a Turcoman dynasty descended from Artuk, a general who served Malik Shah, the Seljuq Sultan, at the end of the 5th/11th century. They were divided into two main branches, descended from two sons of Artuk- Ilghazi and Sukman.Al Jazari’s masters belonged to the Sukman branch of family (Hill, 1974).

We know from his book that Al-Jazari wrote that book,which finished (16th jan . 1206), on the request of Sultan Nasiral-Din Mahmud bin Karaaslan after spending twenty five years in his service (1198). Al-Jazari wrote his book in Arabic alphabet that was dynasty palace’s language at that time.


Al-Jazari was most likely from the Bedouin tribes that settled the region like the Taghalib or possible the Tayy
The Artuks were a Turcoman dynasty descended from Artuk, a general who served Malik Shah, the Seljuq Sultan, at the end of the 5th/11th century. They were divided into two main branches, descended from two sons of Artuk- Ilghazi and Sukman.Al Jazari’s masters belonged to the Sukman branch of family (Hill, 1974).

https://www.scribd.com/document/61496743/Al-Jazari-and-Inventions


Some but not all of them. Iraqis, Yemenites, and Palis are very successful as well.Any names? their achievements?


Also the British could not colonize Arabia directly, so they did it indirect manner. Like Greeks, Assyrians, Romans, Mongols….. They could not, or did not want? Who would want to colonize a desert?


Don't compare us to you Levantine. You’re doing great here, you just drew the line between "you"(Arabs) and "us"(Levantines).

Thank you, I’ve been saying this from day 1.


We also defeated the Portuguese and even took over their African colonies, which was quite humiliating for them.

When did Arabs defeat Portuguese in Africa?

So, since you became the new colonizer, what was your achievement in Africa and in all the colonies you took over?



And by the way, "Bedouin" does not mean "people of the Wilderness" in Arabic.

[StonyArabia]

I have no problem as long as you support your argument with evidence.

Any quote, reference or citation ?

If you have none, then, as I said previously; it’s all in your head, in your head, Zombie, zombie, zombie, ie, ie……

The evidence is in how they behave is more than enough. All of the Levantines on here want to be close to Southeast Euros like Greeks, with the Lebanese it's gets amplified with some wanting to be French.


Lol. It’s not Lebanese who said that about their country:

"For bewitched European Orientalists, Lebanon was once considered the Switzerland of the Levant, and its capital, Beirut, the "Paris of the Middle East.”

https://www.paragkhanna.com/home/road-maps-success-could-return-lebanon-to-its-former-glory-as-switzerland-of-the-levant


Back in the 1960ies Lebanon was called the "Switzerland of the Levant" because of its Banking system and "Paris of the Middle East" because of its vibrant cultural and intellectual life.

Well it seem the Lebanese take pride in what others label them. Lebanon was not that advanced, Iraq was far more advanced in Lebanon, until the wars be fell it. Yet no one labeled Iraq as something else. Nor they would take pride in being compared to European nations.


and, why are you worried how Lebanese label themselves?

I simply tell them hard cold truth.


It is a well-known Arabian tradition: those who are different from us should be decimated.

We don't, we just call people on the truth.


Nobody is denying your Arabic culture and identity, so don’t stick your label on others.

That's the correct label, and this what the world knows the Lebanese as us, however when it would benefit them because they want minority status they label themselves as Arabs


Great, now you have to support your argument with historical facts and dates on how the depopulation of Phoenicians happened.

They disappeared before the Christian era, and many tribes from the Arabian pen settled there, not to mention the Persian, Egyptian, Anatolian influences there are. We also know that some of the Muslim Lebanese groups also converted to Christianity in quite recent others, well others were also branch from the Quyrash tribe who left Islam and became Christian. Maronites seem to be Syriac origins for example.



I’m all ears.

I told you what happened, several other groups in the region and intermingled their blood there, with conversions and so on. They were long gone before the Christian era




Arabs are the Fathers of robotics? Is it an Arab thing to appropriate other people’s discoveries and inventions as being theirs?

Quite possible

Abstract:

Al-Jazari was a 12th Century Turkish Scientist, Engineer and writer. His full name was Badi Al-Zaman AbulI-Izz Ibn Ismail Ibn Al-Razzaz Al-Jazari. He lived in Diyarbakir region in Turkey (1206 AD). As his town name is Cizre, the modern Turkish scripting of Jizra , his last name is known as Jazari (Uzun, 1997)…. He served the Artuks a Seljuks dynasty in Diyarbakir, as a chief engineer – as did his father before him……

Introduction:

Abu Al Izz Ismail al Jazari lived in Amid, that is called now Diyarbakir in South-east of Anatolia in Turkey, (12th century) during Artuk Seljuqs period. He had spent twenty five years in service of Seljuqs Sultans (Nasiruddin Abul Fath Muhammed bin Karaaslan and his father).

The Artuks were a Turcoman dynasty descended from Artuk, a general who served Malik Shah, the Seljuq Sultan, at the end of the 5th/11th century. They were divided into two main branches, descended from two sons of Artuk- Ilghazi and Sukman.Al Jazari’s masters belonged to the Sukman branch of family (Hill, 1974).

We know from his book that Al-Jazari wrote that book,which finished (16th jan . 1206), on the request of Sultan Nasiral-Din Mahmud bin Karaaslan after spending twenty five years in his service (1198). Al-Jazari wrote his book in Arabic alphabet that was dynasty palace’s language at that time.


The Artuks were a Turcoman dynasty descended from Artuk, a general who served Malik Shah, the Seljuq Sultan, at the end of the 5th/11th century. They were divided into two main branches, descended from two sons of Artuk- Ilghazi and Sukman.Al Jazari’s masters belonged to the Sukman branch of family (Hill, 1974).

https://www.scribd.com/document/61496743/Al-Jazari-and-Inventions[/QUOTE]

You do realize that by his name Al-Jazari is an Arab name, and it's not Turkic, just because he is from Turkey it does not mean he is ethnic Turk. Heck there are still Arabian tribes living in Southeast Turkey. Even Diyarbakir, which is a city in southeast Turkey, has been named after it's founding by the Banu Baker tribe. The Arabian tribes that live in southeast Turkey are often from the Taghlib, Tayy, Shaybani, and recently from the Dafhair which are a banch of Banu Lam who settled in Mosul and southeast Turkey due to inter-clan fighting, as they did not want to convert to Shiaism, like the majority of their clans who did in southern Iraq. He could be Turkish, but he seems from Semitic stock rather than from Turkic stock. Also Al-Jazaria refers to the area of western Iraq, parts of northeast Syria, and parts of Turkey, which was inhabited by Arab tribes. However some of those Arab tribes sadly got Kurdified in recent years.


Any names? their achievements?

Iraqi scientists and inventor of the camera Ibn Al-Haythem,

Iraqi female scientists Dr. Sousan S. Altaie is Scientific Policy Advisor for the Office of In Vitro Diagnostic Devices in the United States. She joined the Food and Drug Administration in the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research in the Division of Anti-infective Drug Products as a primary reviewer in 1995.[1][2][3] Six years later she joined the FDA's Center for Devices and Radiological Health as the Chief of Immunology and Molecular Diagnostics Branch, she is actively working as a member of the Global Harmonization Task Force (GHTF) and International Organisation for Standardisation (ISO) working groups. She was appointed the CDRH Critical Path Coordinator in 2004 and is actively involved in the Agency's Critical Path initiative, she has served as an observer, advisor and full member of various committees and subcommittees of the Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute (CLSI).

Habib Abdulrab Sarori (born 1956) is a Yemeni computer scientist and novelist.[1] He was born in Aden and pursued higher studies in France, obtaining a master's degree in Informatics from the University of Paris 6 in 1983, followed by a PhD from the University of Rouen in 1987. He is currently a professor in the Mathematical and Software Engineering Department at Rouen and also at INSA de Rouen. He has published numerous scientific papers over the last two decades. He is also the author of textbooks in computer science.[2]

Abdulrab has published literary works in both French and Arabic. His novel La reine étripée was published in 2000. He has also written short stories and novels in Arabic, his most recent novel being Arwa. His short story The Bird of Destruction was published in English translation in Banipal magazine, in an issue devoted to contemporary Yemeni writing. He also published two other books, the first one being Production System Engineering, the second one being Suslov's Daughter.

There are more examples of course


Like Greeks, Assyrians, Romans, Mongols….. They could not, or did not want? Who would want to colonize a desert?

The Greco-Romans also tried to colonize Arabia, they failed miserably. The same was also true of the Assyrians. The Mongols actually pushed into Kuwait. However it was only the Persians who managed to colonize parts of Arabia, and it was deadly mistake, because we eventually conquered them, the subjugated became the rulers. On the contrary the Arabian peninsula has always been coveted because it's a strategic location it connects Asia and Africa, as well Europe to it. This what began the European influence in the region, especially British and Portuguese.


You’re doing great here, you just drew the line between "you"(Arabs) and "us"(Levantines).

We are indeed very different people


Thank you, I’ve been saying this from day 1.

Despite this Levantines are infused with Arabian blood, despite the differences



When did Arabs defeat Portuguese in Africa?

Here is the video in Arabic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLg0JhYvvQA


So, since you became the new colonizer, what was your achievement in Africa and in all the colonies you took over?

After the defeat of the Portuguese, European colonization of the Arabian peninsula and the Gulf region was delayed. We also spread Arabian civilization and culture on the East African coast of this.



And by the way, "Bedouin" does not mean "people of the Wilderness" in Arabic.

Bedouin means nomad, but it's root refers to the wilderness. I am of that heritage, and even to this day Levantines would refer to us in offensive manner as Bed'oun in offensive manner meaning Wild people or savages. So I know the ethnonym of my people. We don't look the same as them because our origins lays in the Arabian peninsula.

[happycow]

Which Levantines are looking to be close to Southern Europeans? I've never met a single levantine who associates with Southern Europe, nor have I met any Lebanese who want to be French. :confused: I have noticed Levantines and North Africans who prefer to not be called Arab, and Arabians seem to get bent out of shape over it. We have always called ourselves Arab because we speak the language, but we never called ourselves Arabians nor did we associate with them. My god people the self segregation at mosques I went to growing up is a real thing... :rolleyes:

Bottom line is none of the arab populations get along and this is proof of that. lol. I mean how many times have I heard arabians calling us levantines "fake arabs"? Or how many times have I heard levantines refuse to take on arab identity? As someone pointed out earlier, the Arabian world, the Levant and North Africa all need to be separate entities.

[Grenzland]

I can fully understand. Pan Arabism was a fine idea but reality crushed it hard.

[Dandelion]

And Lebanon is the Levantine Balkan cramped in a tiny area forcing the different parties to get along or get nowhere. I would also assume the Christian Lebanese speak French the best among all, but this is also due to a class thing, as historically they tend to have been the better educated ones of the region, not necessarily something else.
Our communicating in English and occasional consumption of American cultural export here neither makes us wannabe yanks.

And not being ashamed of having one's capital compared to a Euro capital doesn't mean much neither, especially if it's due to its cosmopolitan attributes. It might be in vogue among those who abhor it to distance oneself from anything Western, but universalism and our commonality as humans is still the other phasor pulling humans in a certain direction to look at the world.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Lebaneses (christians) suffered a lot of culturalizations till today, being last arabization and "arameanization" before, due persians. Greeks had some impact, but was not enough and romans never brought the latinization to western asia because the culture left by greeks and persians were too strong. Despite everything, lebaneses (christians) continue the same canaanite/phoenicians geneticaly as shown in previous posts. I'm sad even because the christian arab Gassanids, didn't leave a significative ramain in levantine christian genetics.

Lebanese muslims show diferent levels of actual arab influence, from the same as lebanese christians to very similar with peninsular arabs.

However, just genetics maybe isn't the correct criterion to define what is a people, just remember levantine influence is bigger in Southern Europe than Levante itself after arabs arrived.

[Pulsa Dinura]

The evidence is in how they behave is more than enough. All of the Levantines on here want to be close to Southeast Euros like Greeks, with the Lebanese it's gets amplified with some wanting to be French.

I have no problem as long as you support your argument with evidence.
Any quote, reference or citation ? If you have none, then….


Well it seem the Lebanese take pride in what others label them.
Any quote, reference or citation ? If you have none, then…


Lebanon was not that advanced, Iraq was far more advanced in Lebanon, until the wars be fell it.
In which year/period?


Yet no one labeled Iraq as something else.

Did you have a successful Banking system? No. Did you have a "vibrant cultural and intellectual life"? No.

But do not worry, no need to take pride in what others label you.


Nor they would take pride in being compared to European nations.

Who is taking pride in being compared to European nations?

Any quote, reference or citation ? If you have none, then….


That's the correct label, and this what the world knows the Lebanese as us

...and this forum could be an opportunity to explain to the world our version of History.


however when it would benefit them because they want minority status they label themselves as Arabs
True, those are the Dhimmis.


They disappeared before the Christian era, and many tribes from the Arabian pen settled there

Great, now you have to support your argument with historical facts and dates on how the depopulation of Phoenicians happened and how "they disappeared before the Christian era", and how "many tribes from the Arabian Peninsula settled there".

Phoenicians/Lebanese converted to Christianity since early ages, and when Arab invasions started, they were threatened as Christians, not as Phoenicians . That’s why they retreated to their fortified high mountains to preserve their religion,not their Phoenicianism.


Maronites seem to be Syriac origins for example. There is no such thing as a "Syriac" ethnic group. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic. So, Maronites are not Syriacs, they spoke Syriac.


You do realize that by his name Al-Jazari is an Arab name, and it's not Turkic and do you realize that Saladin (Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub صلاح الدين يوسف بن أيوب) is an Arab name while Saladin was a Kurd?

and do you realize that the majority of Ottoman Sultans held Arabic names (Uthman, Murad, Muhammad, Salim, Ahmad, Mustafa, Ibrahim, Mahmud, Abdul Hamid, Abdul Majid, Abdul Aziz....) while Ottomans were not Arabs?


However some of those Arab tribes sadly got Kurdified in recent years.

Like those Arameans/Syriacs who sadly got Arabized after the Arab expansion?


Habib Abdulrab Sarori (born 1956) is a Yemeni computer scientist and novelist.He was born in Aden and pursued higher studies in France, obtaining a master's degree in Informatics from the University of Paris 6 in 1983, followed by a PhD from the University of Rouen in 1987. He is currently a professor in the Mathematical and Software Engineering Department at Rouen and also at INSA de Rouen. Abdulrab has published literary works in both French and Arabic. His novel “La reine étripée”

Oh mon Dieu!…do you think that Yemenites want to be French, like Lebanese?


Despite this Levantines are infused with Arabian blood, despite the differences We all know who "might" be infused with Arabian blood, and who are certainly not infused with Arabian blood.


Here is the video in Arabic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLg0JhYvvQA

Is Muscat in Africa?


After the defeat of the Portuguese, European colonization of the Arabian peninsula and the Gulf region was delayed.
...and you call it an Arab victory? If anything it was an Ottoman victory.

After appropriating other people’s discoveries and inventions as being theirs, now Arabs are appropriating other people’s battles and victories as being theirs too.


We also spread Arabian civilization and culture on the East African coast of this.
What is the Arabian civilization and culture? care to expand?

[Mingle]

They do, they often say Beirut Paris of the Mideast lol.

How is this wannabeism? Phrases like "X is the Paris of Y" or "X is the Switzerland of Y" exist for countless countries.

[StonyArabia]

How is this wannabeism? Phrases like "X is the Paris of Y" or "X is the Switzerland of Y" exist for countless countries.

Do you see the Japanese comparing themselves to Europeans?

[Mingle]

Do you see the Japanese comparing themselves to Europeans?

Maybe the Japanese don't but several others do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_of_the_East

Its not done out of a complex. Its just to give context to how rich and lively the city is.

[Aren]

I like how Nabatea is shaming Levantines for wanting to distance themself from Arabs. Like dude you Arabs defiled the Mideast so hard to become the dump it is today and you still want non-Arab Middle easterners to look up to Arabs. And stop talking about an Anglo-American alliance and how it's destorying the Arab-world when your precious Saudi Arabia is their prime ally.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Lebanese brazilian christians came most to here during Ottoman rule, then they didn't live under french mandate, because of this they identified themselves as ARABS, but it was changing with arab-israeli wars, 9/11 and internet.

[Dandelion]

Back in the Austrian-Hungarian era many also identified as Yugoslavs. Not many of those who do today.

[Pulsa Dinura]

Lebanese brazilian christians came most to here during Ottoman rule, then they didn't live under french mandate, because of this they identified themselves as ARABS, but it was changing with arab-israeli wars, 9/11 and internet.They were not identified as Arabs, but as TURCOS.

When Lebanese/Syrians started immigrating to Brazil to escape the harsh military rule of the Ottomans, they carried their Ottoman passport from an Ottoman Turkish administration.

So the Portuguese immigration officials classified them as “Turcos” whether they were Jews, Christians or Muslims.

[Dandelion]

They were not identified as Arabs, but as TURCOS.

When Lebanese/Syrians started immigrating to Brazil to escape the harsh military rule of the Ottomans, they carried their Ottoman passport from an Ottoman Turkish administration.

So the Portuguese immigration officials classified them as “Turcos” whether they were Jews, Christians or Muslims.

Very anecdotal silly example. We used to have a comedy show here which took place during WWII (the Occupation) and the period after it. One character was named 'Stavros', a Greek immigrant. He often was at odds with his employer who would insult him for 'vuile Turk' (dirty Turk) angering him into responding 'Ik ben geen vuile Turk, ik ben een vuile Griek. Euh een Griek!' ;)

But yeah, even if the Ottoman Empire existed in that character's lifetime, much of Greece was already independent from the early 19th century. Still, it was what happened, calling Ottoman subjects collectively Turk regardless of ethnicity. But it's no less ignorance, of course.

[StonyArabia]

Any quote, reference or citation ? If you have none, then…

Iraq was highly developed, and Baghdad was well known city of glory.



In which year/period?

From the 1960s to the 1980's before Iran started harassing Iraq and lead to the situation that is in.


Did you have a successful Banking system? No. Did you have a "vibrant cultural and intellectual life"? No.

This shows how much you don't know about Iraq. Iraq had one of the most successful banking systems in the Mideast. Yes Baghdad always had vibrant and intellectual life, but they were not influenced by the West.


But do not worry, no need to take pride in what others label you.

We don't, we know we are Arabians and our ancestors are Arabians, we often glorify both our Yemenite and Ishamelite(North Arabian) ancestry. Not to mention we have tribes and tribal affilation, and those from the Asli and noble tribes would never associate themselves with anything else. In Iraq however exist non-tribal affiliated people and they are often of Iranian ancestry, and they are ones trying to de-Arabize us.


Who is taking pride in being compared to European nations?

Several Levantines on here


Any quote, reference or citation ? If you have none, then….

Just look at randomguy1235 posts


...and this forum could be an opportunity to explain to the world our version of History.

No one said otherwsie, but I would still argue against it


True, those are the Dhimmis.

They identify as Arab, because it gives them Visible minority status in Canada, which can have some benefits to it, nothing more than that.



Great, now you have to support your argument with historical facts and dates on how the depopulation of Phoenicians happened and how "they disappeared before the Christian era", and how "many tribes from the Arabian Peninsula settled there".

The Nabateans dominated most of the Levant, they were an Arabian tribes, but they have been influenced by the Arameans only lingustically, because their religion, was Goddess worship and with Al-Lat being supreme. Also they refused to convert to Christianity. After the Nabateans, came the Ghassanids who had escaped from Yemen, after the Ethiopians destroyed the Marb -Dam. They became arch rivals of the Nabateans and reduced them to vassals, however most of the Nabateans returned to Syria and Jordan. Another tribe that came to the Levant was the Tayy, whom Syriac sources call Tayoyo and they also came from the Arabian peninsual. Before that was the Kedarites who had an empire stretching from northern Arabia to Iraq into the Levant. Yet Aramaic and various north Arabian dialects were spoken. This not mention other Arabian tribes who would settle, after the Arabian defeat of the Byzantines. These were not only male warriors, on the contrary they moved with their women and children.


Phoenicians/Lebanese converted to Christianity since early ages, and when Arab invasions started, they were threatened as Christians, not as Phoenicians . That’s why they retreated to their fortified high mountains to preserve their religion,not their Phoenicianism.

Lebanese Christians come from many sources, I doubt they are Phoenicians but mixture of Armenians, Assyrians, Ghassanids, and Greeks.


There is no such thing as a "Syriac" ethnic group. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic. So, Maronites are not Syriacs, they spoke Syriac.

Syriacs means they were of Mesopotamian origins, like Assyrians. Assyrians are very close to Maronites, yet they are not that close to other Levantine populations.


and do you realize that Saladin (Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub صلاح الدين يوسف بن أيوب) is an Arab name while Saladin was a Kurd?

Yes Saladin is a Kurd


and do you realize that the majority of Ottoman Sultans held Arabic names (Uthman, Murad, Muhammad, Salim, Ahmad, Mustafa, Ibrahim, Mahmud, Abdul Hamid, Abdul Majid, Abdul Aziz....) while Ottomans were not Arabs?

Yes that's true they were not Arabs, but had Arab names. However southeast Anatolia saw large presence of Arabian tribes. These Arabian tribes were like Baker Ibn Wail, Taghlib, Tayy, and Banu Shayban, Dafhair.



Like those Arameans/Syriacs who sadly got Arabized after the Arab expansion?

They chose it willingly because they were tired from the Byzantines and we liberated and they chose our language and culture. Well the Anatolian Arabs were Kurdified by forceful assimilation, this is different. Well Levantines are forcing assimilation on the Asli/noble Bedouin tribes in Syria



Oh mon Dieu!…do you think that Yemenites want to be French, like Lebanese?

Hell no, most Yemenite are proud of their ancestry.


We all know who "might" be infused with Arabian blood, and who are certainly not infused with Arabian blood.

Well all groups in the Levant have traces of Arabian blood, others have pre-Islamic Arabian blood and well others Muslim Arabian blood




Is Muscat in Africa?

No Muscat is the capital of Oman and it's one of the most beautiful cities in the Middle East. I don't know if trolling or serious



...and you call it an Arab victory? If anything it was an Ottoman victory.

It was an Arab victory simply because Oman was independent Sultanate and not mention the Ottomans had no role to play in this war, it was mostly Omani and Arabian peninsulars effort. They even threatened the Persian/Iranians who were regional power in the region.


After appropriating other people’s discoveries and inventions as being theirs, now Arabs are appropriating other people’s battles and victories as being theirs too.

Oh please, I shown you are wrong, because Al-Jazari was most likely an Anatolian Arab either from the Taghlib/Tayy or Shaybani tribe.


What is the Arabian civilization and culture? care to expand?

Nabatean, Sabean, Minean, Midianite, Saifitic, Thumidic, Lihyanite and many more.

[Incal]

If you have none, then, as I said previously; it’s all in your head, in your head, Zombie, zombie, zombie, ie, ie……

lol

[Sacrificed Ram]

They were not identified as Arabs, but as TURCOS.

When Lebanese/Syrians started immigrating to Brazil to escape the harsh military rule of the Ottomans, they carried their Ottoman passport from an Ottoman Turkish administration.

So the Portuguese immigration officials classified them as “Turcos” whether they were Jews, Christians or Muslims.

I said how they identified themselves, not how others identified them.
https://brasileiramentearabe.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cartaz-01121.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Maybe the Japanese don't but several others do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_of_the_East

Its not done out of a complex. Its just to give context to how rich and lively the city is.

Believe it or not it's done out of a complex and it's very cuckish thing to do, and it shows the Eurocentric image of the so called civilized White man. I would not want my country to be compared as such. For example Muscat is highly developed city in the Mideast, but if Omanis were going saying they are Paris of the East, I would see them as laughing stock or OWders similar to the Lebanese, who took it to their heads. However Omanis are proud of their culture and and Arabian origins, it's just giving an example.

[Sacrificed Ram]

I fear Near East become more violent and be called "Little Brazil", because more people are killed in Brazil than in Near East wars...

[Aren]

They chose it willingly because they were tired from the Byzantines and we liberated and they chose our language and culture. Well the Anatolian Arabs were Kurdified by forceful assimilation, this is different. Well Levantines are forcing assimilation on the Asli/noble Bedouin tribes in Syria
Lies and more lies. How can you be this brainwashed?

[Myanthropologies]

Lol, what is the issue with non-Europeans recognizing their similarities to Europeans? You are so overly proud of Bedouins rejecting shared anything with Europeans, as if that means you're more proud of your heritage or something.

Well, you go have fun with that. Humans should recognize similarities between each other. It is not OWD to feel a sense of identity with the people you grew up around and have been by your side all your life. That is why MENAs in the west might embrace some of these things.

[StonyArabia]

Lol, what is the issue with non-Europeans recognizing their similarities to Europeans? You are so overly proud of Bedouins rejecting shared anything with Europeans, as if that means you're more proud of your heritage or something.

They don't do to it because they share similarities but rather because they want to be White/Europeans. I am not, but we share very little if anything in common with Europeans. The only thing we share that many Bedouins can speak English as their second language. I am just proud of my culture, well they are not. For example there some Levantine members who clearly want to be European and exaggerate their relationship to Greece and South Italy like one particular member which you even mocked on here.


Well, you go have fun with that. Humans should recognize similarities between each other. It is not OWD to feel a sense of identity with the people you grew up around and have been by your side all your life. That is why MENAs in the west might embrace some of these things.

Of course, then such people should identify as Americans or what not, however some of these people behave like that in their own nations, and some of them even lie about their ethnicity and say they are Italian or Greek, are ok with such shameful behavior? That such cuck behavior right there. There is nothing with MENA's accepting aspect of Western cultures however unless they are being cucks, and some do it without any doubt because they are colonized mentally.

[amoora]

I don’t get why people think we want to literally be French just because we speak it. We didn’t choose the French language to be a part of our legacy. My mum grew up speaking French, and I hear her speak to her family/friends in French all the time. They don’t want to BE French, but they were educated in French growing up so they’re used to it.

[Annie999]

Im always amazed how such a tiny country gets so much attention. It must be without a doubt an interesting country with interesting people inside.

[Dandelion]

I don’t get why people think we want to literally be French just because we speak it. We didn’t choose the French language to be a part of our legacy. My mum grew up speaking French, and I hear her speak to her family/friends in French all the time. They don’t want to BE French, but they were educated in French growing up so they’re used to it.

I remember watching a television programme about unlikely tourist destinations (due to them either being remote, undiscovered or dangerous). In the Venezuela episode was one upper middle class woman with Lebanese roots. Her house was barricaded and there were camera's everywhere.

She had an underground luxury restaurant running, which is illegal in today's Venezuela. It's the only way for top chefs to be able to cook however they want, with their own tariffs with the ingredients of their own choosing without the government's intermeddling. Only through the underworld are you able to eat there nowadays in a city as dangerous as Caracas.

The language they spoke to communicate was French. I didn't see it as her being wannabe French, but as being cosmopolitan.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5hnuvf

(12:50 and on)

She seemed happy finally being able to speak French again.

[happycow]

I remember watching a television programme about unlikely tourist destinations (due to them either being remote, undiscovered or dangerous). In the Venezuela episode was one upper middle class women with Lebanese roots. Her house was barricaded and there were camera's everywhere.

She had an underground luxury restaurant running, which is illegal in today's Venezuela. It's the only way for top chefs to be able to cook however they want, with their own tariffs with the ingredients of their own choosing without the government's intermeddling. Only through the underworld are you able to eat there nowadays in a city as dangerous as Caracas.

The language they spoke to communicate was French. I didn't see it as her being wannabe French, but as being cosmopolitan.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5hnuvf

(12:50 and on)

She seemed happy finally being able to speak French again.

A lot of my family still lives in Venezuela and yes it is extremely dangerous. A cousin of mine was kidnapped for ransom and shot and left to die many years back. They are targets due to their wealth. Only some of my family has actually decided to leave that place.

[Haider]

People use only a few simple French words like Bonjour, Merci etc in their daily speech. Maghrebis are much Francophone.

[KMack]

I don’t get why people think we want to literally be French just because we speak it. We didn’t choose the French language to be a part of our legacy. My mum grew up speaking French, and I hear her speak to her family/friends in French all the time. They don’t want to BE French, but they were educated in French growing up so they’re used to it.

In Lebanese diaspora, more went to Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, USA, Venezuela, Australia, Mexico, Canada (as individual countries) than France. So yeah I don't think there is a burning desire to be French LOL.

[KMack]

A lot of my family still lives in Venezuela and yes it is extremely dangerous. A cousin of mine was kidnapped for ransom and shot and left to die many years back. They are targets due to their wealth. Only some of my family has actually decided to leave that place.

Wow sorry to hear this.God bless them and keep them safe.

[Pulsa Dinura]

Iraq was highly developed, and Baghdad was well known city of glory.
Do you mean during the times of the Abbasid Caliph Harun al Rashid?


From the 1960s to the 1980's before Iran started harassing Iraq and lead to the situation that is in.

From Wikipedia:

"After World War I, Iraq passed from the failing Ottoman Empire to British control. Britain established the Kingdom of Iraq in 1932. In the 14 July Revolution of 1958, the king was deposed and the Republic of Iraq was declared. In 1963, the Ba'ath Party staged a coup d'état and was in turn toppled by another coup in the same year, but managed to retake power in 1968. Saddam Hussein took power in 1979 and ruled Iraq for the remainder of the century, during the Iran–Iraq War of the 1980s, the Invasion of Kuwait and the Gulf War of 1990 to 1991 and the UN sanction during the 1990s. Saddam was removed from power in the 2003 invasion of Iraq."

So which period exactly are you talking about?


This shows how much you don't know about Iraq. Iraq had one of the most successful banking systems in the Mideast.
But why nobody spoke about Iraq having "one of the most successful banking systems in the Mideast" in the 1930ies, 40ies, 50ies, 70ies, 80ies, 90ies... ?


Yes Baghdad always had vibrant and intellectual life, but they were not influenced by the West.
But why nobody spoke about the "vibrant and intellectual life"of Bagdad in the 1930ies, 40ies, 50ies, 70ies, 80ies, 90ies...
(Except those proud Baghdadis who were not influenced by the West and who were smoking their narguile and playing backgammon with a beautiful Adhan call in the background).

The irony is that the same West who stayed for 15 years in Iraq (1917-1932) and established the Iraqi Kingdom in 1932 is called a colonial power, while proud Arabs didn’t mind when they were occupied by another colonial power (Ottomans) for 384 years (1534-1918).

Ya salam


No one said otherwise, but I would still argue against it You can argue against it day and night, but you should at least be equipped with convincing and valid arguments, not wishes and fairytales.

Shehrazad is not a valid source.


The Nabateans dominated most of the Levant The Levant is a broad term. What were the name of their cities in the Levant? For how long did they dominate? For how long did they exist?


they were an Arabian tribes
Nabateans were NOT Arabs...

It’s affirmed by ALL oriental geographers and historians and even by ARAB geographers and historians!

According to AL TABARI (839-923 A.D) he talked in details about Nabateans by saying that they were Aramaic, native and NON ARAB from Syria and Iraq...

He also affirms that Nabateans were Semite but from a different branch of the Arabs:
Arabs descent from Yaqtan ibn Aber, ibn saleh, ibn Arphakshad, ibn Sem, ibn nou7, while Nabateans descent from Nabith, ibn Mash, ibn Aram, Ibn Sem, ibn Nou7.

So, Nabateans are Aramaic not only by race, but also by language.

Ibn el Nadim (936-995 A.D) said that Nabatean language was the language God spoke to Adam in paradise.

Ibn Assaker (1105-1176 AD) talked almost the same about Nabateans.

Al Balazori (died in 892 AD) opposes Nabateans (Anbat) and Arabs (in foutou7 al bouldan):
"Abou Ubayda (chief of the Arab armies who conquered syria in 636 A.D) made a peace treaty with the government of Al Jorjoumah… Also Nabateans took part in the peace treaty to protect their citizens”.

Also Al Balazori described the Mardaite expedition against Umeyyades by saying:
"In the time of Abdel Malek bin Marwan, a batallion of the Byzantine cavalery reached the Amanus mountain, then reached Lebanon bringing with them Jarajimah, Anbat and other rebels against Muslims".

Moreover, in arabic language Nabateans and Arameans are synonyms.

Now since you arabized Nabateans, you can take pride in their achievements too.


The Nabateans dominated most of the Levant, they were an Arabian tribes, but they have been influenced by the Arameans only lingustically, because their religion, was Goddess worship and with Al-Lat being supreme. Also they refused to convert to Christianity. After the Nabateans, came the Ghassanids who had escaped from Yemen, after the Ethiopians destroyed the Marb -Dam. They became arch rivals of the Nabateans and reduced them to vassals, however most of the Nabateans returned to Syria and Jordan. Another tribe that came to the Levant was the Tayy, whom Syriac sources call Tayoyo and they also came from the Arabian peninsual. Before that was the Kedarites who had an empire stretching from northern Arabia to Iraq into the Levant. Yet Aramaic and various north Arabian dialects were spoken. This not mention other Arabian tribes who would settle, after the Arabian defeat of the Byzantines. These were not only male warriors, on the contrary they moved with their women and children.

The main question was :


Great, now you have to support your argument with historical facts and dates on how the depopulation of Phoenicians happened and how "they disappeared before the Christian era", and how "many tribes from the Arabian Peninsula settled there".


Lebanese Christians come from many sources, I doubt they are Phoenicians but mixture of Armenians, Assyrians, Ghassanids, and Greeks.

Anything but Phoenician, right? Lol

Not even Armenians, Assyrians, Ghassanids or Greeks... No! but a mixture of them. If you want, you can add Mings, Haussas and Yorubas ...a kind of an exotic soup with an exotic haplogroup.

It was more like Aladdin’s genie:

- "Phoenicians! disappear!"

and Poof!.. Phoenicians disappeared.


Hilarious.


Syriacs means they were of Mesopotamian origins, like Assyrians.
Who told you that? Was it your own definition of “Syriacs” or Shehrazad’s?

"Syriacs" doesn’t mean they were of Mesopotamian origins. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic, not an ethnicity nor a people.

But if you insist... :banghead:



Yes Saladin is a Kurd but his name is Arabic, does it make him an Arab?


They (Arameans/Syriacs) chose it willingly because they were tired from the Byzantines and we liberated and they chose our language and culture

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or sarcastic.

If you are serious, you should stop reading "One Thousand and One Nights", but if was sarcasm, well, nice one!:thumb001:

So you liberated them, and they chose your rich culture and language willingly...

Blease tell me it was sarcasm.


Well the Anatolian Arabs were Kurdified by forceful assimilation, this is different. So Arameans/Syriacs chose it willingly, but Anatolian Arabs were Kurdified by force...

Hmmm... i’m not gifted, i will never understand the Arab logic.

But it’s okay...i will adapt.


Hell no, most Yemenite are proud of their ancestry. So why are you proud to display the diplomas he earned from French schools and universities?

Couldn’t he proudly graduate from Aden or Sanaa?


Well all groups in the Levant have traces of Arabian blood
What is the "Arabian blood" thing? Any historical documents ? Evidences? Proofs? Peer-reviewed articles? No?

More wine to Shehrazad?

One of the main achievements of Islam over the centuries was to convert ethnically diverse "Arabic-speaking" world into an artificial union where all origins are forgotten or rather granted a fictitious “Arab” character.


No Muscat is the capital of Oman and it's one of the most beautiful cities in the Middle East. I don't know if trolling or serious

We also defeated the Portuguese and even took over their African colonies, which was quite humiliating for them But Muscat is not in Africa, my question was: which African colony did you take from Portuguese?



As for Diyarbakir, it was always known as Amida, an Aramaic city, but like usual, Arabs like to erase other’s history by Arabizing everything...

So, following the Arab conquests in 639 C.E, monsieur Bakr and his tribe fought his battle, settled there among the indigenous Mesopotamians, Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds... and as a victor, he decided to change the name of the city to Diyarbakir (the home of Bakr).

You can also take pride in every scientist or mathematician from Diyarbakir since he should definitely be from "Arab" origins.


Now the 1 million $ question:

Can you explain how a bunch of desert nomads and goat herders suddenly became knowledgeable in science, geography, astronomy, astrology, chemistry, physics, optics, mathematics, medicine…?

Why were/are they non-existent in their own habitat, the Arabian Peninsula?



Believe it or not it's done out of a complex and it's very cuckish thing to do, and it shows the Eurocentric image of the so called civilized White man. I would not want my country to be compared as such. For example Muscat is highly developed city in the Mideast, but if Omanis were going saying they are Paris of the East, I would see them as laughing stock or OWders similar to the Lebanese, who took it to their heads. However Omanis are proud of their culture and and Arabian origins, it's just giving an example.


…There is nothing with MENA's accepting aspect of Western cultures however unless they are being cucks, and some do it without any doubt because they are colonized mentally. Your English is still better than my French on each and every level, if you see what I mean.

[Pulsa Dinura]

I said how they identified themselves, not how others identified them.
https://brasileiramentearabe.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cartaz-01121.jpg

This is a theatrical performance talking about the descendants of Lebanese in the city of Bethlehem. And apparently it's new (2013/2014). So this is not how they identified when they first arrived in Brazil.

And do you think a Brazilian from Lebanese ancestry will know the difference between Arab and Arabized?

The word "Arab" in Brazil is about the language, not the ethnicity.

If they were real Arabs, why didn't they mix with other Arabs?

[Aren]

Pulsa how is your brain not vomiting by just reading what Nabatea is writing? If he’s not a troll then God(not filthy Allah) help the Middle East if all Arabs are like him.

[Sacrificed Ram]

This is a theatrical performance talking about the descendants of Lebanese in the city of Bethlehem. And apparently it's new (2013/2014). So this is not how they identified when they first arrived in Brazil.

And do you think a Brazilian from Lebanese ancestry will know the difference between Arab and Arabized?

The word "Arab" in Brazil is about the language, not the ethnicity.

If they were real Arabs, why didn't they mix with other Arabs?

Obvious they will say firstly they are lebanese, and just after they are arabs.

In my city there are syrians and lebaneses, then to mantain the integration of the community, they will just say arabs. Identification with arabs is an old thing, now they have a lot of reasons to not identify themselves with arabs.

About mixes, even most of us being brazilians, the simple fact some people are members of different christians churches, impedes them to marry between themselves (for people with serious religiosity).

[StonyArabia]

Do you mean during the times of the Abbasid Caliph Harun al Rashid?

No but yes that was the golden moment in Iraq




From Wikipedia:

"After World War I, Iraq passed from the failing Ottoman Empire to British control. Britain established the Kingdom of Iraq in 1932. In the 14 July Revolution of 1958, the king was deposed and the Republic of Iraq was declared. In 1963, the Ba'ath Party staged a coup d'état and was in turn toppled by another coup in the same year, but managed to retake power in 1968. Saddam Hussein took power in 1979 and ruled Iraq for the remainder of the century, during the Iran–Iraq War of the 1980s, the Invasion of Kuwait and the Gulf War of 1990 to 1991 and the UN sanction during the 1990s. Saddam was removed from power in the 2003 invasion of Iraq."

So which period exactly are you talking about?

From the Hashamite monarchy till 1979 when Iran decided to harass our nation which lead to it's situation here.


But why nobody spoke about Iraq having "one of the most successful banking systems in the Mideast" in the 1930ies, 40ies, 50ies, 70ies, 80ies, 90ies... ?

Yet it did. However Iraq had best the universities in the Middle East and the best hospitals. Your Levantines were coming here to study for example. Plus it was only those with poor marks would go to low quality universities in Romania, Bulgaria basically Balkans and Eastern Europe and even Turkey. That shows how the Iraqi education system was quite strong.



But why nobody spoke about the "vibrant and intellectual life"of Bagdad in the 1930ies, 40ies, 50ies, 70ies, 80ies, 90ies...
(Except those proud Baghdadis who were not influenced by the West and who were smoking their narguile and playing backgammon with a beautiful Adhan call in the background).

Baghdad was indeed the intellectual center of the Mideast, the intellectual life was indeed vibrant in the 1940's till the 1980's because our country decided to defend itself against the Persian imperialist ambitions. Even with that conflict we were victorious, because they are the ones who asked for cease fire.


The irony is that the same West who stayed for 15 years in Iraq (1917-1932) and established the Iraqi Kingdom in 1932 is called a colonial power, while proud Arabs didn’t mind when they were occupied by another colonial power (Ottomans) for 384 years (1534-1918).

The Ottomans are liked in Iraq, because they actually freed Iraq from the Persians who had long prosecuted the population. In fact the Ottomans were welcomed in many localities to get the Persians out. Well the British were more destructive in their colonial rule of Iraq despite being short lived. Also the British had suffered heavy damages, in the 1921 revolt, and this why they decided to establish the the Hashamite monarchy on Iraq. That said I don't mind the Hashamite rule, because they have done a lot to progress Iraq. Ironically it was the same British who would not support them. In fact my tribe was quite the Ottoman loyalist and I am proud to say that. However not all Turkic rule was well liked and there was heavy fighting against them especially the Black and White sheep Turkmens who were just Turkic spekaing Persian tribes.


Ya salam

lol


You can argue against it day and night, but you should at least be equipped with convincing and valid arguments, not wishes and fairytales.

Shehrazad is not a valid source.

Nope I use real sources and those that are verified by Academics, anthropologist and historians.


The Levant is a broad term. What were the name of their cities in the Levant? For how long did they dominate? For how long did they exist?

Indeed, but the Nabateans dominated most of it at one point. The Levant is Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine, and even Jordan at times, with parts of Western Iraq is included. The most famous of all their cities Petra.



Nabateans were NOT Arabs...

It’s affirmed by ALL oriental geographers and historians and even by ARAB geographers and historians!

According to AL TABARI (839-923 A.D) he talked in details about Nabateans by saying that they were Aramaic, native and NON ARAB from Syria and Iraq...

No the Nabateans originated from the Arabian peninsula, however they were influenced by Arameans, and that influence seems to be most linguistic rather than genetic. Many non-Aramean people adopted the Aramaic language because it was the lingua franca, and that was no different from today where many of us communicate in English but are not ethnically English.


He also affirms that Nabateans were Semite but from a different branch of the Arabs:
Arabs descent from Yaqtan ibn Aber, ibn saleh, ibn Arphakshad, ibn Sem, ibn nou7, while Nabateans descent from Nabith, ibn Mash, ibn Aram, Ibn Sem, ibn Nou7.

No Nabateans claimed to descent from the Eldest son of Ishamel, whom the Arabs and Jews both regard as the ancestors of the North Arabian tribes.



So, Nabateans are Aramaic not only by race, but also by language.

Nope, Nabatean remained were exhumed and they were very close to modern day ethnic Saudis and Yemenite Jews, and to Bedouins. They even had minor East African admixture.


Ibn el Nadim (936-995 A.D) said that Nabatean language was the language God spoke to Adam in paradise.

Ibn Assaker (1105-1176 AD) talked almost the same about Nabateans.

Al Balazori (died in 892 AD) opposes Nabateans (Anbat) and Arabs (in foutou7 al bouldan):
"Abou Ubayda (chief of the Arab armies who conquered syria in 636 A.D) made a peace treaty with the government of Al Jorjoumah… Also Nabateans took part in the peace treaty to protect their citizens”.

Also Al Balazori described the Mardaite expedition against Umeyyades by saying:
"In the time of Abdel Malek bin Marwan, a batallion of the Byzantine cavalery reached the Amanus mountain, then reached Lebanon bringing with them Jarajimah, Anbat and other rebels against Muslims".

The Nabateans were mostly pagan and were Goddess worshippers. Their religion was very similar to that of the Kedarites who were an Arabian tribe. The Gods and Goddess of the Nabateans were all Arabian. They also worshipped the Goddess Al-Lat and Al-Uzzah who were Arabian goddess. Even the Assyrian sources say the Nabateans who were one of the rebel Arabian tribes. The Tayy and Taghlib also used Aramaic, but they both were of Arabian origins, and would have been included as Alnbat despite having nothing to do with the Nabateans, just like the Arameans.

The Nabataeans were one among several nomadic tribes that roamed the Arabian Desert, moving with their herds to wherever they could find pasture and water. These nomads became familiar with their area as seasons passed, and they struggled to survive during bad years when seasonal rainfall diminished.[8] Although the Nabataeans were initially embedded in Aramaic culture, theories about their having Aramean roots are rejected by modern scholars. Instead; historical, religious and linguistic evidence confirm that they are a northern Arabian tribe.[9]




Moreover, in arabic language Nabateans and Arameans are synonyms.

Yet Arameans were different from the Nabateans, and the latter Aramaic was more akin to Arabic. Alnbat was referred an error to all Aramaic speakers. Not to mention many of the Nabatean groups especially in Jordan defected to the Arab side. However it was not only them, and their pagan religion continued especially the worship of the Goddess Al-Uzzah. It was only when the Ghassanids came that they were decimated and impoverished. The Ghassanids were South Arabian tribe who migrated to the Levant due to Ethiopian raids, and the marib dam being broken by them. The Ghassanids also never converted to Islam and remained Christian, this was unlike the Tayy and Taghlib who did, yet both have Christian branches to this day.


Now since you arabized Nabateans, you can take pride in their achievements too..

The Nabateans have always been Arabs. They are genetically, culturally and lingustically closer to me than to any modern day Levantine.

The precise origin of this specific tribe of Arab nomads remains uncertain. One hypothesis locates their original homeland in today's Yemen, in the south-west of the Arabian peninsula; however, their deities, language and script share nothing with those of southern Arabia. Another hypothesis argues that they came from the eastern coast of the Peninsula.[8] The suggestion that they came from Hejaz area is considered to be more convincing, as they share many deities with the ancient people there, and "nbtw", the root consonant of the tribe's name, is found in the early Semitic languages of Hejaz.[8]


Similarities between late Nabataean Arabic dialect and the ones found in Mesopotamia during the Neo-Assyrian period, and the fact that a group with the name of "Nabatu" is listed by the Assyrians as one of several rebellious Arab tribes in the region, suggests a connection between the two.[8] The Nabataeans might have originated from there and migrated west between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE into northwestern Arabia and much of what is now modern-day Jordan.[8]

Nabataeans have been falsely associated with other groups of people. A people called the "Nabaiti" which were defeated by the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal and described to have lived "in a far off desert where there are no wild animals and not even the birds build their nests", were associated by some with the Nabataeans due to the temptation to link their similar names and images. One claim by Jane Taylor alleges a misconception in their identification with the Nebaioth of the Hebrew Bible, the descendants of Ishmael, Abraham's son.[8]


The official language of the Nabataean inscription, attested from the 2nd century BCE, shows a local development of the Aramaic language under a heavy influence of Arabic forms and words demonstrated in numerous Nabataean inscriptions, which reflect the local tongue of the Nabataeans.[22] For medium and mutually comprehensive communication with Middle Eastern ethnic groups the Nabataeans, likewise their neighbours, had to rely on Aramaic as middle bridge between the different polities of the region.[17] Therefore Aramaic was used for commercial and official purposes across the Nabataean political sphere.[23] The Nabataean alphabet itself also developed out of the Aramaic alphabet, although used distinctive cursive script of which the Arabic alphabet emerged from.


While the principal inscriptional language of the Nabataeans was Aramaic, the lingua franca of the time, the Nabataeans were, however, an Arabic speakers.[24] In surviving Nabataean documents, Aramaic legal terms are followed by their equivalents in Arabic. This could suggest that the Nabataeans used Arabic in their legal proceedings, but recorded them in Aramaic.[25]


My great-grandmother was Howetiat Bedouin and they claim to descent from the Nabateans, she was from Jordan. The Bedul are clan of the Howetiat they claim Nabatean blood.

Their phenotype is very similar to mine, dark skinned ect.

https://s31.postimg.org/iph3qxjwr/bedul.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://s31.postimg.org/nbd7zasl7/dsc_0826.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://s31.postimg.org/sms4k1h8r/Bedouin_father_daughter.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/m931gsccn/)




The main question was :

I have answered the question.



Anything but Phoenician, right? Lol

Do you see anyone claiming to descent from the Babylonians? because it would be laughable. If an Iraqi start saying he is Babylonian he would be seen as laughing stock. Simply the Babylonians faded in history and have left no genetic trace in the region. The same can be said about the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians simply ceased to exist before the Christian era, when the Levant was already under domain of Arameans and even north Arabian tribes at the time.


Not even Armenians, Assyrians, Ghassanids or Greeks... No! but a mixture of them. If you want, you can add Mings, Haussas and Yorubas ...a kind of an exotic soup with an exotic haplogroup.

That's what it seems like.


It was more like Aladdin’s genie:

- "Phoenicians! disappear!"

and Poof!.. Phoenicians disappeared.

The same thing happened to the Babylonians



Hilarious.

Nope, explain how the Phoenicians exist if the Babylonian longer exist?


Who told you that? Was it your own definition of “Syriacs” or Shehrazad’s?

"Syriacs" doesn’t mean they were of Mesopotamian origins. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic, not an ethnicity nor a people.

Well it seems Maronites are much closer genetically to Assyrians than they are to Druze, Palestinians or Lebanese Muslims(Shia/Sunni). That might be the case that Syriac is language rather than ethnicity or a people, but the Maornites seem to have come from Syria into mount Lebanon.


But if you insist... :banghead:

Look at the above.



but his name is Arabic, does it make him an Arab?

Well indeed having an Arab name does not make you Arabic, just Christian ME have Latin names does not make them Latin.



I can’t tell if you’re being serious or sarcastic.

If you are serious, you should stop reading "One Thousand and One Nights", but if was sarcasm, well, nice one!:thumb001:

So you liberated them, and they chose your rich culture and language willingly...

Blease tell me it was sarcasm.

First if they were forced to be Arabized? during what period remember that the Arabian tribes already poured out from the Arabian peninsula during several phases. Not to mention northern Arabic dialects or languages were already spoken in the region. Not to mention that Ghassanids were the ones who brought the Arabic language in the region which had already reduced the Syriac/Aramaic languages, and before the the Tayy, Takhnhuids, and other groups in the region. However it's well known many of these groups welcomed the Arabs as liberators, and this is from Western sources itself, so you can't say they are biased.


So Arameans/Syriacs chose it willingly, but Anatolian Arabs were Kurdified by force...

There is no proof that Arabization ever took place among Arabic speakers, and they genetically have little in common with Aramaic speakers, perhaps it's only true of some, since a lot of them have significant admixture. Once you go to Iraq none of us is Arabized. Anatolian Arabs have indeed been Kurdified by force, both direct and indirectly. However there many of them that are not Kurdified but it's ongoing process.


Hmmm... i’m not gifted, i will never understand the Arab logic.

I am just stating historical facts.


But it’s okay...i will adapt.

I just say the truth as it is.


So why are you proud to display the diplomas he earned from French schools and universities?
Couldn’t he proudly graduate from Aden or Sanaa?

Because the education their is very poor and plus Yemen is one of the poorest area in the Mideast, and is in prolonged conflicts. However many Iraqis, and including many Levantines would be proud to graduate from Baghdad university for example. Of course sadly not now.



What is the "Arabian blood" thing? Any historical documents ? Evidences? Proofs? Peer-reviewed articles? No?

Ghassanid, Taghlib and Tayy, but the most common is Ghassanid, there is plenty of historical evidence and documents. The latter two tribes still have Christian branches.


More wine to Shehrazad?

As they say the truth is uncomfortable.


One of the main achievements of Islam over the centuries was to convert ethnically diverse "Arabic-speaking" world into an artificial union where all origins are forgotten or rather granted a fictitious “Arab” character.

That such nonsense, Jordanians, large portions of Iraqis are of Arabian ancestry, perhaps when you move into Lebanon/Syria there is mixture ie Significant Arabian ancestry. Only North Africa was Arabized linguistically. North Africans are still Berbers and they know it themselves. However the non-tribal affiliated populations are indeed of Arabized origins, but the majority of Jordanians and Iraqis, as well southeast Syrians are tribal affiliated meaning they are of Arabian origins.


But Muscat is not in Africa, my question was: which African colony did you take from Portuguese?

They were off the east coast of Africa




As for Diyarbakir, it was always known as Amida, an Aramaic city, but like usual, Arabs like to erase other’s history by Arabizing everything...

So, following the Arab conquests in 639 C.E, monsieur Bakr and his tribe fought his battle, settled there among the indigenous Mesopotamians, Assyrians, Armenians, Kurds... and as a victor, he decided to change the name of the city to Diyarbakir (the home of Bakr).

You can also take pride in every scientist or mathematician from Diyarbakir since he should definitely be from "Arab" origins.

If he identifies as an Arab he is an Arab. Anyways I am very culturally close to Anatolian Arabs, because I come from Mosul and the Syrian Desert area of Iraq which are called the Al-Jazaria in Arabic. They are not Arabized lol, nor have they mixed with Armenians, Assyrians, or Kurds. In fact the Bedouin population isolate itself, maybe some non-tribal affiliated Arabs who would be, there is significant portion of them in Mosul, but they look different from the ones who claim Bedouin ancestry, they have more of Mesopotamian/Assyrian look. Most Southern Iraqis are tribal affiliated and claim Bedouin ancestry, only in certain localities you will find non-tribal affiliated Arabs and most of the ones here actually have Iranian ancestry, none of them says I am Babylonian it would look pathetic, plus they migrated mostly in the 18th century.



Now the 1 million $ question:

Can you explain how a bunch of desert nomads and goat herders suddenly became knowledgeable in science, geography, astronomy, astrology, chemistry, physics, optics, mathematics, medicine…?

They came into contact with civilizations of the ancient world like Greece, Persia , China, and India and advanced upon their works.



Why were/are they non-existent in their own habitat, the Arabian Peninsula?

Actually they were in Yemen, Oman, UAE, and Qatar, but not the interior Arabian peninsula because they were nomadic and it was harsh climatic conditions, but in the North there was advanced civilizations like the Liyhanite for example and the Qatarye. The latter also spoke Aramaic but they were not Arameans but local Arabians just like the Nabateans lol.




Your English is still better than my French on each and every level, if you see what I mean.

Well English is the lingua franca of this age. Not you, but speaking of general Levantines trying to be French or European lol, and it's not only me who has seen this behavior, the former banned Iranian member also noted the same observation.

[dark-mysterio]

No but yes that was the golden moment in Iraq





From the Hashamite monarchy till 1979 when Iran decided to harass our nation which lead to it's situation here.



Yet it did. However Iraq had best the universities in the Middle East and the best hospitals. Your Levantines were coming here to study for example. Plus it was only those with poor marks would go to low quality universities in Romania, Bulgaria basically Balkans and Eastern Europe and even Turkey. That shows how the Iraqi education system was quite strong.




Baghdad was indeed the intellectual center of the Mideast, the intellectual life was indeed vibrant in the 1940's till the 1980's because our country decided to defend itself against the Persian imperialist ambitions. Even with that conflict we were victorious, because they are the ones who asked for cease fire.



The Ottomans are liked in Iraq, because they actually freed Iraq from the Persians who had long prosecuted the population. In fact the Ottomans were welcomed in many localities to get the Persians out. Well the British were more destructive in their colonial rule of Iraq despite being short lived. Also the British had suffered heavy damages, in the 1921 revolt, and this why they decided to establish the the Hashamite monarchy on Iraq. That said I don't mind the Hashamite rule, because they have done a lot to progress Iraq. Ironically it was the same British who would not support them. In fact my tribe was quite the Ottoman loyalist and I am proud to say that. However not all Turkic rule was well liked and there was heavy fighting against them especially the Black and White sheep Turkmens who were just Turkic spekaing Persian tribes.



lol



Nope I use real sources and those that are verified by Academics, anthropologist and historians.



Indeed, but the Nabateans dominated most of it at one point. The Levant is Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine, and even Jordan at times, with parts of Western Iraq is included. The most famous of all their cities Petra.




No the Nabateans originated from the Arabian peninsula, however they were influenced by Arameans, and that influence seems to be most linguistic rather than genetic. Many non-Aramean people adopted the Aramaic language because it was the lingua franca, and that was no different from today where many of us communicate in English but are not ethnically English.



No Nabateans claimed to descent from the Eldest son of Ishamel, whom the Arabs and Jews both regard as the ancestors of the North Arabian tribes.




Nope, Nabatean remained were exhumed and they were very close to modern day ethnic Saudis and Yemenite Jews, and to Bedouins. They even had minor East African admixture.



The Nabateans were mostly pagan and were Goddess worshippers. Their religion was very similar to that of the Kedarites who were an Arabian tribe. The Gods and Goddess of the Nabateans were all Arabian. They also worshipped the Goddess Al-Lat and Al-Uzzah who were Arabian goddess. Even the Assyrian sources say the Nabateans who were one of the rebel Arabian tribes. The Tayy and Taghlib also used Aramaic, but they both were of Arabian origins, and would have been included as Alnbat despite having nothing to do with the Nabateans, just like the Arameans.

The Nabataeans were one among several nomadic tribes that roamed the Arabian Desert, moving with their herds to wherever they could find pasture and water. These nomads became familiar with their area as seasons passed, and they struggled to survive during bad years when seasonal rainfall diminished.[8] Although the Nabataeans were initially embedded in Aramaic culture, theories about their having Aramean roots are rejected by modern scholars. Instead; historical, religious and linguistic evidence confirm that they are a northern Arabian tribe.[9]





Yet Arameans were different from the Nabateans, and the latter Aramaic was more akin to Arabic. Alnbat was referred an error to all Aramaic speakers. Not to mention many of the Nabatean groups especially in Jordan defected to the Arab side. However it was not only them, and their pagan religion continued especially the worship of the Goddess Al-Uzzah. It was only when the Ghassanids came that they were decimated and impoverished. The Ghassanids were South Arabian tribe who migrated to the Levant due to Ethiopian raids, and the marib dam being broken by them. The Ghassanids also never converted to Islam and remained Christian, this was unlike the Tayy and Taghlib who did, yet both have Christian branches to this day.

.

The Nabateans have always been Arabs. They are genetically, culturally and lingustically closer to me than to any modern day Levantine.

The precise origin of this specific tribe of Arab nomads remains uncertain. One hypothesis locates their original homeland in today's Yemen, in the south-west of the Arabian peninsula; however, their deities, language and script share nothing with those of southern Arabia. Another hypothesis argues that they came from the eastern coast of the Peninsula.[8] The suggestion that they came from Hejaz area is considered to be more convincing, as they share many deities with the ancient people there, and "nbtw", the root consonant of the tribe's name, is found in the early Semitic languages of Hejaz.[8]


Similarities between late Nabataean Arabic dialect and the ones found in Mesopotamia during the Neo-Assyrian period, and the fact that a group with the name of "Nabatu" is listed by the Assyrians as one of several rebellious Arab tribes in the region, suggests a connection between the two.[8] The Nabataeans might have originated from there and migrated west between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE into northwestern Arabia and much of what is now modern-day Jordan.[8]

Nabataeans have been falsely associated with other groups of people. A people called the "Nabaiti" which were defeated by the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal and described to have lived "in a far off desert where there are no wild animals and not even the birds build their nests", were associated by some with the Nabataeans due to the temptation to link their similar names and images. One claim by Jane Taylor alleges a misconception in their identification with the Nebaioth of the Hebrew Bible, the descendants of Ishmael, Abraham's son.[8]


The official language of the Nabataean inscription, attested from the 2nd century BCE, shows a local development of the Aramaic language under a heavy influence of Arabic forms and words demonstrated in numerous Nabataean inscriptions, which reflect the local tongue of the Nabataeans.[22] For medium and mutually comprehensive communication with Middle Eastern ethnic groups the Nabataeans, likewise their neighbours, had to rely on Aramaic as middle bridge between the different polities of the region.[17] Therefore Aramaic was used for commercial and official purposes across the Nabataean political sphere.[23] The Nabataean alphabet itself also developed out of the Aramaic alphabet, although used distinctive cursive script of which the Arabic alphabet emerged from.


While the principal inscriptional language of the Nabataeans was Aramaic, the lingua franca of the time, the Nabataeans were, however, an Arabic speakers.[24] In surviving Nabataean documents, Aramaic legal terms are followed by their equivalents in Arabic. This could suggest that the Nabataeans used Arabic in their legal proceedings, but recorded them in Aramaic.[25]


My great-grandmother was Howetiat Bedouin and they claim to descent from the Nabateans, she was from Jordan. The Bedul are clan of the Howetiat they claim Nabatean blood.

Their phenotype is very similar to mine, dark skinned ect.

https://s31.postimg.org/iph3qxjwr/bedul.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://s31.postimg.org/nbd7zasl7/dsc_0826.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://s31.postimg.org/sms4k1h8r/Bedouin_father_daughter.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/m931gsccn/)



:

I have answered the question.




Do you see anyone claiming to descent from the Babylonians? because it would be laughable. If an Iraqi start saying he is Babylonian he would be seen as laughing stock. Simply the Babylonians faded in history and have left no genetic trace in the region. The same can be said about the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians simply ceased to exist before the Christian era, when the Levant was already under domain of Arameans and even north Arabian tribes at the time.



That's what it seems like.



The same thing happened to the Babylonians




Nope, explain how the Phoenicians exist if the Babylonian longer exist?



Well it seems Maronites are much closer genetically to Assyrians than they are to Druze, Palestinians or Lebanese Muslims(Shia/Sunni). That might be the case that Syriac is language rather than ethnicity or a people, but the Maornites seem to have come from Syria into mount Lebanon.



Look at the above.




Well indeed having an Arab name does not make you Arabic, just Christian ME have Latin names does not make them Latin.




First if they were forced to be Arabized? during what period remember that the Arabian tribes already poured out from the Arabian peninsula during several phases. Not to mention northern Arabic dialects or languages were already spoken in the region. Not to mention that Ghassanids were the ones who brought the Arabic language in the region which had already reduced the Syriac/Aramaic languages, and before the the Tayy, Takhnhuids, and other groups in the region. However it's well known many of these groups welcomed the Arabs as liberators, and this is from Western sources itself, so you can't say they are biased.



There is no proof that Arabization ever took place among Arabic speakers, and they genetically have little in common with Aramaic speakers, perhaps it's only true of some, since a lot of them have significant admixture. Once you go to Iraq none of us is Arabized. Anatolian Arabs have indeed been Kurdified by force, both direct and indirectly. However there many of them that are not Kurdified but it's ongoing process.



I am just stating historical facts.



I just say the truth as it is.



Because the education their is very poor and plus Yemen is one of the poorest area in the Mideast, and is in prolonged conflicts. However many Iraqis, and including many Levantines would be proud to graduate from Baghdad university for example. Of course sadly not now.




Ghassanid, Taghlib and Tayy, but the most common is Ghassanid, there is plenty of historical evidence and documents. The latter two tribes still have Christian branches.



As they say the truth is uncomfortable.



That such nonsense, Jordanians, large portions of Iraqis are of Arabian ancestry, perhaps when you move into Lebanon/Syria there is mixture ie Significant Arabian ancestry. Only North Africa was Arabized linguistically. North Africans are still Berbers and they know it themselves. However the non-tribal affiliated populations are indeed of Arabized origins, but the majority of Jordanians and Iraqis, as well southeast Syrians are tribal affiliated meaning they are of Arabian origins.



They were off the east coast of Africa





If he identifies as an Arab he is an Arab. Anyways I am very culturally close to Anatolian Arabs, because I come from Mosul and the Syrian Desert area of Iraq which are called the Al-Jazaria in Arabic. They are not Arabized lol, nor have they mixed with Armenians, Assyrians, or Kurds. In fact the Bedouin population isolate itself, maybe some non-tribal affiliated Arabs who would be, there is significant portion of them in Mosul, but they look different from the ones who claim Bedouin ancestry, they have more of Mesopotamian/Assyrian look. Most Southern Iraqis are tribal affiliated and claim Bedouin ancestry, only in certain localities you will find non-tribal affiliated Arabs and most of the ones here actually have Iranian ancestry, none of them says I am Babylonian it would look pathetic, plus they migrated mostly in the 18th century.




They came into contact with civilizations of the ancient world like Greece, Persia , China, and India and advanced upon their works.




Actually they were in Yemen, Oman, UAE, and Qatar, but not the interior Arabian peninsula because they were nomadic and it was harsh climatic conditions, but in the North there was advanced civilizations like the Liyhanite for example and the Qatarye. The latter also spoke Aramaic but they were not Arameans but local Arabians just like the Nabateans lol.





Well English is the lingua franca of this age. Not you, but speaking of general Levantines trying to be French or European lol, and it's not only me who has seen this behavior, the former banned Iranian member also noted the same observation.


arabs tribes do exist in ̶n̶o̶r̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶f̶r̶i̶c̶a̶ the maghreb region like the banu hilal/sulaym (northern arabian ?) and the maqil (southern arabian ?) however they do not represent the majority who are indeed the berbers

and what about the Chaldean people do they claim ancient Mesopotamian ancestry ? (since your are of Iraqi ancestry you may know something about them ?)

[Sacrificed Ram]

If lebaneses christians are descendents of Canaanites/Phoenicas, my ancestors were christian melkites from Syria, Yabroud city, am I descendent of the true arameans?
https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2014/3/15/201431511327194734_20.jpg

[StonyArabia]

arabs tribes do exist in ̶n̶o̶r̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶f̶r̶i̶c̶a̶ the maghreb region like the banu hilal/sulaym (northern arabian ?) and the maqil (southern arabian ?) however they do not represent the majority who are indeed the berbers

Yes but they only left a linguistic and cultural influence, they did not leave a significant genetic impact. The majority of North Africans are just Arabic speaking Berbers.


and what about the Chaldean people do they claim ancient Mesopotamian ancestry ? (since your are of Iraqi ancestry you may know something about them ?)

Chaldeans are just Catholic Assyrians. They live in Northern Iraq, originally they were Nestorian, but when they converted to Catholicism they were given the name Chaldean. Some though don't identify as Assyrian but as Chaldean, they speak neo-Aramaic.

[StonyArabia]

Pulsa how is your brain not vomiting by just reading what Nabatea is writing? If he’s not a troll then God(not filthy Allah) help the Middle East if all Arabs are like him.

Allah is the Arabic word for God. Since you speak Semitic language then you should know that. Nah, what I am saying has been confirmed by all sources from anthropology to history. Anyways Arabization is a myth. My ancestors are not some Arabized bozos, because I know who they descent from, they are from the Nabateans, Kedarites, Midianites, and Himyarites, and possibly other north Arabian elements. We are tired from some groups trying to de-Arabize us both in Iraq and Syria. Bedouin tribes are often being forced to assimilate, and many of our cultural practices got banned in Syria especially, and in Iraq we were mostly left alone. Since my ancestors are from the Asli/noble tribes it means very little chance for Arabization. They are not some bozos that's for sure who chose an alien culture from their own.

[dark-mysterio]

Yes but they only left a linguistic and cultural influence, they did not leave a significant genetic impact. The majority of North Africans are just Arabic speaking Berbers.



Chaldeans are just Catholic Assyrians. They live in Northern Iraq, originally they were Nestorian, but when they converted to Catholicism they were given the name Chaldean. Some though don't identify as Assyrian but as Chaldean, they speak neo-Aramaic.

hmm... :eusa_doh: so if this not from the 11th arabs tribe invasion where do the j1 haplogroup among Maghrebi come from ?

[StonyArabia]

hmm... :eusa_doh: so if this not from the 11th arabs tribe invasion where do the j1 haplogroup among Maghrebi come from ?

Partially some of it, but a lot of it came with the neolithic revolution

[Sacrificed Ram]

Partially some of it, but a lot of it came with the neolithic revolution

J1 and J2 are Bronze age, there aren't J even in neolithic levant.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/63/99/ab639966a78ca62842e2ef9f0daaff53.gif

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Weaker than compared to some other populations sure but it’s still pretty strong. Arabization is the weakest amongst North Africans especially the further out west in the Maghreb. The people for whom arabization is the weakest of all is Maltese, they constantly live in denial of their own language.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

There is a serious misunderstanding here to what the word Arab means.

[Corporate_Demolisher]

A lot of Lebanese want to be White and French, I have seen it, and it's very amplified with the Christian ones.



lol, Lebanese want to be Europeans more than anything lol, far more than the other groups there that's way.

Maybe because they're Christian and they are historical enemies of Muslims... duh. Being of the same ethnicity doesn't make you brothers with someone. A lot of them talk to me about how Muslims slaughtered much of their famillies. I knew a Lebanese Orthodox and Greek Orthodox couple, trust me they're not that different.

It has nothing to do with "whiteness" lmao, Christianity in the Middle East is older than Islam itself.

[Florstadt]

You’re exactly right. We say we’re Phoenicians. My family always taught me that.

That is an genetical fact. Lebanese share much more DNA with Jewish people and other Levantine people than they share with Arabs from Saudi Arabia. The Arab conquers didn't assimilate to great extent with the local Lebanese population, just changed the local culture and religion.

[Touijer]

That is an genetical fact. Lebanese share much more DNA with Jewish people and other Levantine people than they share with Arabs from Saudi Arabia. The Arab conquers didn't assimilate to great extent with the local Lebanese population, just changed the local culture and religion.

This is blatantly false. What’s the DNA they share? The majority of Lebanese are J1 and Semitic like other Arabs unlike Jews who are not J1 anymore. Clustering in a pca chart doesn’t equal to sharing DNA

[Kess]

I've heard that the Lebanese see themselves as descendants of the Phoenicians and identify as such, rather than as Arabs.

[sacha]

I've heard that the Lebanese see themselves as descendants of the Phoenicians and identify as such, rather than as Arabs.

I have honestly never seen any Arab Christian, Lebanese or not, identify this way unironically in real life. People say they are descended from them, but this identity is not put above Arab... Arab is not a racial identity, it is not genetic, it is a shared cultural consciousness and sphere of influence. This 'Phoenicianism' was a nationalist identity people adopted because they did not want to be associated with Arab, but I see it as nonsensical... yes, many are similar genetically to ancient Phoenicians, but this identity has essentially been scrubbed away and is no longer relevant in the modern day. It is important to know your history, but I think to adopt this weird identity as a response to pan-Arabism has long fallen out of fashion. If someone does not want to call himself Arab, let him, but this is how he always will be seen so I see no point.

[tk'es]

Lebanese belong to J2 grand masters

[reboun]

Developments in genealogical DNA tests might be a reason to weaken the Arabic identity among Lebanese. A lot of Lebanese people who are interested in population genetics became aware of the fact that actual Arabian ancestry among coastal Levantines is low. Maybe it is the reason why Arabic identity among Lebanese is weak anymore. In my opinion, this is one of cons of genealogical DNA tests as they might cause the national identity of a person (or even people) to weaken. Therefore, people need to be aware of the fact that nationalities are not genetically determined.

[Pulsa Dinura]

I have honestly never seen any Arab Christian.
Neither did I.



I have honestly never seen any Arab Christian, Lebanese or not, identify this way unironically in real life.
Because most of them are outside the Baathi sphere. The lucky ones immigrated either to Los Angeles, Sao Paolo, Mexico, Sydney, Melbourne, Paris or…. 3 meters below Mezzeh level.



People say they are descended from them, but this identity is not put above Arab...
Were your ancestors Arabs before the Arab invasion in 637 A.D.? Did they speak Arabic? Did they identify as Arabs?



Arab is not a racial identity, it is not genetic, Arab is a shared cultural consciousness and sphere of influence.
Instead of Arabs, what if Jews or Persians invaded your area and imposed their language, would you change your identity and promote Greater Israel or Greater Persia because you share a "cultural consciousness and sphere of influence" with them?



Arab is not a racial identity, it is not genetic, Arab is a shared cultural consciousness and sphere of influence.
What do you share with a Kuwaiti, a Yemeni, an Algerian, a Sudanese and a Mauritanian in terms of "cultural consciousness and sphere of influence"? Who are your common leader(s)? What are your common aspirations? What is your common heritage? what are your common cultural affinities?



This 'Phoenicianism' was a nationalist identity people adopted because they did not want to be associated with Arab, but I see it as nonsensical...
Since you were/are a Baathi yourself, you're definitely familiar with the Baath motto: "One Arab Umma with an eternal message".

...and you think it's realistic?

Definitely, Phoenicianism is more realistic than "One Arab Umma".



yes, many are similar genetically to ancient Phoenicians
...then they must be Arabs...



but this identity has essentially been scrubbed away
By whom?:)



and is no longer relevant in the modern day.
Guess which people succeeded in reviving their own language and culture after 2000 years ?

So...we still have a chance



It is important to know your history
True, and not live as a Dhimmi.



but I think to adopt this weird identity as a response to pan-Arabism has long fallen out of fashion.
What is weirder, to restore what existed or to impose an alien identity?
How to oppose the successful and modern Pan-Arabism?



If someone does not want to call himself Arab, let him, but this is how he always will be seen so I see no point.
You want to identify as a Syrian Arab, that's fine, that's the Pan-Arab ideology of your political party led by Pol Pot I (the father) then by Pol Pot II (the son); but to identify as an "Arab Maronite", that would be awkward and/or hilarious.