West Slavs vs. East Germans: genetic comparison

[Peterski]

Differences between East German and West Slavic regional samples in Eurogenes K36:

https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png

https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png

Sample sizes were listed here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229733-PCA-vs-Map-of-Polish-regions&p=4835932&viewfull=1#post4835932

[Vlatko Vukovic]

In general not very different situation between Czechs and Germanics.

[Token]

As expected, even bordering East Germans are significantly distinct from their Slavic neighboors.

[Peterski]

In general not very different situation between Czechs and Germanics.

That's not true if you see the admixtures that I posted as well as the PCA graph with a map that I posted.

Czechs have not as much of North-West Euro admixture (less than 25% vs. over 30% for East Germans).

Maps (one shows the position of Lithuanians, the other one shows Danes instead):

https://i.imgur.com/Xx4lrBX.png

https://i.imgur.com/Vwk3mLW.png

[Peterski]

Here is my PCA with all individual samples. Czechs are clearly distinguished from East Germans, as Czechs pull towards South-West Euro admixtures (Iberian, Italian, etc.) while East Germans pull towards North-West Euro admixtures (North Sea, North Atlantic, etc.):

Green - Poles, Red - Czechs, Blue (including Light Blue) - Germans

https://i.imgur.com/FiNXTXq.png

https://i.imgur.com/FiNXTXq.png

[RN97]

As expected, even bordering East Germans are significantly distinct from their Slavic neighboors.

They hate Russians and for some reason that will always make them try to disassociate with slavs they see as more eastern either culturally or genetically. Czechs and Poles aren't really that far away from Russians genetically depending on what Russians and what Poles/ Czechs.

[Peterski]

Russians and Belarusians are not pure Slavs as many regions (for example Pskov, Novgorod and Vitebsk) pull towards Balts, and many others (for example Kostroma, Perm, Kirov, Tver) pull towards Finno-Ugric populaions.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Russians and Belarusians are not pure Slavs as many regions (for example Pskov, Novgorod and Vitebsk) pull towards Balts, and many others (for example Kostroma, Perm, Kirov, Tver) pull towards Finno-Ugric populaions.

Russians from which towns, according to you, are pure Slavs?

[spik]

They hate Russians and for some reason that will always make them try to disassociate with slavs they see as more eastern either culturally or genetically. Czechs and Poles aren't really that far away from Russians genetically depending on what Russians and what Poles/ Czechs.

Russians are not mixed with Germans like some Poles are.

[Peterski]

I added East Slavic labels (averages). Label "Lviv" = Poles from Lviv, not Ukrainians:

"Austria" = East Austrians (mix of regions but not Tyrol, which plots much further west):

https://i.imgur.com/ExABnpY.png

As you can see East Slavs overlap only with Eastern Poles, not with Polish core.

Some of Western Ukrainians (Boryslav, Zboriv, Zakarpattia) are close to Czechs:

https://i.imgur.com/MWaAjAL.png

Edit: Of course UA Vitebsk should be BY Vitebsk (as Vitebsk is in Belarus).

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I added East Slavic labels (averages). "Lviv" = Poles from Lviv, not Ukrainians:

As you can see East Slavs overlap only with Eastern Poles, not with Polish core.

Some of Western Ukrainians (Boryslav, Zboriv, Zakarpattia) are close to Czechs:

Edit: Of course UA Vitebsk should be BY Vitebsk (as Vitebsk is in Belarus).


Russians from which towns, according to you, are pure Slavs?

[Peterski]

What surprised me is that Poles from Lviv and surrounding areas plot more to the west than geography would suggest.

They plot close to Lesser Poles and close to Upper Silesians. Map posted below show them as SE-Kresy (South-East Kresy).

On the other hand, Poles from Wilno and Grodno region are clearly Baltic-shifted and plot close to Belarusians and Lithuanians.

[Dandelion]

I wonder how Czech compare with Austrians and South German, rather than with East Germans.

[RN97]

Russians and Belarusians are not pure Slavs as many regions (for example Pskov, Novgorod and Vitebsk) pull towards Balts, and many others (for example Kostroma, Perm, Kirov, Tver) pull towards Finno-Ugric populaions.

That is not conclusive due to several factors
1. You'd have to define a "pure slav", meaning that you'd have to prove that they were largely genetically homogeneous.
2. You'd have to prove that how long back you would have to go to find "pure slavs" that all those "pure slavs" did not have the admixture that supposedly pulls Russians away from slavs
3. You'd have to historically prove that admixture from other pop. to Russians caused a genetic change and not Russians mixing with others making them more "Russian-like".
Some things to note is that Yamnaya had some Siberian so how can you be sure that Russians got all their Siberian admixture from non-slavs? By the time of the proto-slavs, they probably already had some Siberian. Russian vary vastly as geography would suggest. I'd bet my left nut that there doesn't exist a genetic border between Belorussians near Poland and Poles near Belarus as it exists among Swedes/Norwegians and Russians even those living close to each others' borders.

[Ülev]

Russians are not mixed with Germans like some Poles are.

yes, but it is funny when someone with R1a M458 claim to be German

[Raizen]

Litvino, do you have any k36 results for netherlands?

[Peterski]

As expected, even bordering East Germans are significantly distinct from their Slavic neighboors.

This varies by area.

Here is an anthropological map (I don't have so many DNA samples to compare every small area):

https://i.imgur.com/4K83oZE.png

This map shows differences in proportions of Nordid versus Osteuropid anthropological types.


Litvino, do you have any k36 results for netherlands?

Yeah:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?214951-Genetic-differences-in-Belgium-and-the-Netherlands

[Peterski]

I wonder how Czech compare with Austrians and South German, rather than with East Germans.

This dot shows where the Austrian average plots (a mix of Austrian regions, but without Tyrol, which is much more western):

https://i.imgur.com/MWaAjAL.png

https://i.imgur.com/MWaAjAL.png

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Litvino, give us a answer haha

[Peterski]

Litvino, give us a answer haha

Maybe this area: Belgorod-Kursk-Bryansk-Smolensk-Oryol-Voronezh.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Maybe this area: Belgorod-Kursk-Bryansk-Smolensk-Oryol-Voronezh-Moscow.

What about Krasnodar and Rostov?

[Ülev]

Russians from which towns, according to you, are pure Slavs?

to me, based on what I watched on YT (russian clips) you can find pure Slavs (but of course also other nationalities, but unmixed Slavs) Leningrad, Moscow (and Moscow Golden Ring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Ring)), Vladivostok and Taiga (russkaya glubinka), Voronezh too

[Peterski]

What about Krasnodar and Rostov?

Rostov seems Ugro-Finnic shifted.

[Ülev]

What about Krasnodar and Rostov?

not really, they don't look anything Slavic there, maybe individually

[Leto]

What about Krasnodar and Rostov?
Smolensk, Bryansk, Oryol, Kursk. That kind of area.

[Leto]

not really, they don't look anything Slavic there, maybe individually
Lol. Most obviously do.

[silentkiller]

Smolensk, Bryansk, Oryol, Kursk. That kind of area.
WhiteRussia stronk!

[Vlatko Vukovic]

to me, based on what I watched on YT (russian clips) you can find pure Slavs (but of course also other nationalities, but unmixed Slavs) Leningrad, Moscow (and Moscow Golden Ring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Ring)), Vladivostok and Taiga (russkaya glubinka), Voronezh too

St. Petersburg (Leningrad), pure Slavs??? Or Viking admixed xD

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Smolensk, Bryansk, Oryol, Kursk. That kind of area.

Moscow? If we don't include Kazaksh and other central Asians who come to study there?

[Leto]

Rostov seems Ugro-Finnic shifted.
South Russia has a lot of Ukrainian descendants. Also, check this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Fields
That area was populated from various sources.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

not really, they don't look anything Slavic there, maybe individually

I see many pure Slav individuals from Khabarovsk. I don't know their real origin, bur Russians from there looks Slavic as fuck.

[Leto]

Moscow? If we don't include Kazaksh and other central Asians who come to study there?
Not at all. Moscow is a fucking mix of everything. From the Baltic sea to the Okhotsk sea. Like 40% of the residents in 1989 (the last Soviet census) were born outside the city.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

See him, the definition of Slav: (from Khabarovsk)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNCbSmA-P5U

[Leto]

St. Petersburg (Leningrad), pure Slavs??? Or Viking admixed xD
More like Baltic Finnic. Anyway, such biggest cities are far from 'pure'. They have people from all over the country + Ukraine, Belarus, etc.

[Ülev]

I see many pure Slav individuals from Khabarovsk. I don't know their real origin, bur Russians from there looks Slavic as fuck.

Tzars and later tovarishch Lenin & Stalin liked to replant people like gardeners do with plants, so no wonder I mentioned Vladivostok (Far East region)
short example ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

[Vlatko Vukovic]

More like Baltic Finnic. Anyway, such biggest cities are far from 'pure'. They have people from all over the country + Ukraine, Belarus, etc.

If it's more than 50%, i can call it pure Slavs.

[Leto]

Baltic admixture means little, Slavs and Balts once formed an entity - the Balto-Slavs. Belarus, Northern Ukraine and Eastern Poland (east of Warsaw) are pretty Slavic in my opinion. I'm talking about people with deeper roots there, not children of migrants from other places.

[Ülev]

and also Old Believers came to Taiga ----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

[Leto]

If it's more than 50%, i can call it pure Slavs.
50? Lol. Then I might be a pure one.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

50? Lol. Then I might be a pure one.

I mean about percentage of people of one town/region.

[Peterski]

Baltic admixture means little, Slavs and Balts once formed an entity - the Balto-Slavs. Belarus, Northern Ukraine and Eastern Poland (east of Warsaw) are pretty Slavic in my opinion. I'm talking about people with deeper roots there, not children of migrants from other places.

Mazovia2 in the map below are 7 Polish samples from Behar 2013 study, they are said to be from Warsaw or from Dobrzyn Land:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229733-PCA-vs-Map-of-Polish-regions

[Leto]

Mazovia2 in the map below are 7 Polish samples from Behar 2013 study, they are said to be from Warsaw or from Dobrzyn Land:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229733-PCA-vs-Map-of-Polish-regions
Not that far from Grodno.

[Leto]

I wonder where the modern Finnic and Tatar people got their NE European admixture and European haplogroups from? Did the ancient Uralics assimilate some IE speakers? The Mordvins are obviosuly not Siberian genetically, like 90-92% caucasoid genetically.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Did the ancient Uralics assimilate some IE speakers?

Scythians.

[Peterski]

As expected, even bordering East Germans are significantly distinct from their Slavic neighboors.

But there is no huge genetic border like between Slovenia and Italy (compare Slovenia and Friuli-Veneto):

https://i.imgur.com/Z3NrUkn.png

https://i.imgur.com/Z3NrUkn.png

Generally, there is a good correlation of genes with geography, as the maps that I posted here show:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229733-PCA-vs-Map-of-Polish-regions

[Rethel]

significantly distinct

https://media.tenor.com/images/a3e2e51f2731670cba100b68f2a71ef3/tenor.gif

[Karol Klačansky]

Why didnt you add a slovak average to the charts? They are a key west slavic population

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Leto]

Scythians.
Well, they were in the Volga region before the Scythians, I think. But if you mean Indo-Iranian speakers, then probably yes.

Chuvash for example. They speak a very mutated Turkic language, absolutely not intelligible to the Kipchak and Oghuz speakers.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 47.29
2 Siberia 18.03
3 SW_Europe 12.63
4 West_Asia 9.71
5 SE_Asia 3.11
6 NE_Asia 2.99
7 Americas 2.14
8 SW_Asia 2.13
9 South_Asia 1.23
10 West_Africa 0.51
11 East_Africa 0.14
12 Oceania 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Chuvash 3.49


71.76% Caucasoid

[Peterski]

Why didnt you add a slovak average to the charts? They are a key west slavic population

Because I'm not sure how good is my Slovak average, I need more Slovak samples. Do you have any?

Slovaks plot between Czechs, South Poles, Rusyns & SW Ukrainians and Hungarians, overlapping with all.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Well, they were in the Volga region before the Scythians, I think. But if you mean Indo-Iranian speakers, then probably yes.

Chuvash for example. They speak a very mutated Turkic language, absolutely not intelligible to the Kipchak and Oghuz speakers.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 47.29
2 Siberia 18.03
3 SW_Europe 12.63
4 West_Asia 9.71
5 SE_Asia 3.11
6 NE_Asia 2.99
7 Americas 2.14
8 SW_Asia 2.13
9 South_Asia 1.23
10 West_Africa 0.51
11 East_Africa 0.14
12 Oceania 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Chuvash 3.49


71.76% Cacuasoid

Actually do you think that Chuvashs are turikicized IE's ?

[Leto]

Actually do you think that Chuvashs are turikicized IE's ?
No, I think they are primarily Turkified Volgaic-Finnics. But the Finnic languages had probably been imposed on some IE speakers prior to their Turkification starting in the 8th century AD or so. I think that the mostly Siberian Uralic speakers came and mixed with Caucasoid IE-speaking tribes and formed what we now know as the Finnic peoples. I don't know for sure of course.

[Karol Klačansky]

Because I'm not sure how good is my Slovak average, I need more Slovak samples. Do you have any?

Slovaks plot between Czechs, South Poles, Rusyns & SW Ukrainians and Hungarians, overlapping with all.Weve maxed out on Gedmatch sofar I havent been able to find anymore pure slovaks just mixed ones. Though maybe gedmatch genesis will open up some doors once they allow gedcoms. My fathers own results compared to the chart
NE: 33.33
NW: 25.11
Balkanid:10.42
Fenno:12.33
SW:13.08
Central E:5.71
Caucasic:0.00

[Peterski]

I wonder how Czech compare with Austrians and South German, rather than with East Germans.

Austrians plot more to the west. Maybe Czechs overlap with Silesian Germans, but I couldn't find any so far (which is weird considering that I found a lot of Germans from Pomerania, Vorpommern, Mecklenburg, Posen-Westpreussen, but only several who were 50% or 25% from Silesia but always mixed with something else, never 100% Silesia).

[Peterski]

I also found:

2 Germans from Volhynia
1 German from Lublin Region (Eastern Poland)
2 Germans from Łódź (Central Poland)
1 German from Galicia (South-East Poland)

11 Mennonites from Russia and Ukraine (mainly Molotschna colony): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotschna

3 Germans/Saxons from Hungary
1 German from Kazakhstan
1 mixed Gottschee German from Slovenia

Mennonites are easy to find on GEDmatch because they share a lot of segments with each other.

Finding the first one was luck, but later I could find all of them because they are all related. :)

[Bobby Martnen]

Label "Lviv" = Poles from Lviv, not Ukrainians:


I hope that Poland get Lwow back some day...

[Peterski]

I found one German from Hannover / Niedersachsen... but he turned out to be mixed with Jews. :)

I found one German from Sudetenland as well.

One German from Neustettin (Szczecinek). One with all ancestors from these 6 places (I will give you Polish names): Wieleń + Szadzko + Wałcz + Choszczno + Złotów + Wyrzysk (basically Grenzmark Posen-Westpreussen and Neumark, borderland of Pommern-Posen).

One German from Stolp (Pommern) and Cuiavia.

One German from Riga (50%) and Elbing (50%) - so this is a 1/2 Baltic German and 1/2 East Prussian.

One German from Westpreussen (50%) and Stettin (50%).

[Peterski]

I also found a Polish Silesian from Panna Maria in Texas: :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panna_Maria,_Texas

[Slavic Italian]

I hope that Poland get Lwow back some day...

I thought Putin tried to orchestrate a joint invasion of Ukraine with Poland a few years ago and offered the Poles that region? They declined.

[Slavic Italian]

yes, but it is funny when someone with R1a M458 claim to be German

I have some German and I am R1a-L260.

[Bobby Martnen]

I thought Putin tried to orchestrate a joint invasion of Ukraine with Poland a few years ago and offered the Poles that region? They declined.

That was just a rumor, and Poland is getting more nationalistic, so we can hope

[Slavic Italian]

That was just a rumor, and Poland is getting more nationalistic, so we can hope

Hahahaha.

[Karol Klačansky]

In general not very different situation between Czechs and Germanics.

Only east germans were included in his chart, and east germans look to have a massive slavic influence on their genome.

[Magnolia]

FUNNY TO SEE HOW MUCH POLES insist on the linguistic category West Slavs despite Poles are genetically far from being West Slavs - they are genetically EAST SLAVS.

The category West Slavs has no value. Because Poles and Czech are like aliens to each other.
No need to mention that Slovaks are mix of Ukrainians and Hungarians.

[Stears]

I also found:

2 Germans from Volhynia
1 German from Lublin Region (Eastern Poland)
2 Germans from Łódź (Central Poland)
1 German from Galicia (South-East Poland)

11 Mennonites from Russia and Ukraine (mainly Molotschna colony): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotschna

3 Germans/Saxons from Hungary
1 German from Kazakhstan
1 mixed Gottschee German from Slovenia

Mennonites are easy to find on GEDmatch because they share a lot of segments with each other.

Finding the first one was luck, but later I could find all of them because they are all related. :)

can you show Saxons from Hungary results ?

[Stears]

FUNNY TO SEE HOW MUCH POLES insist on the linguistic category West Slavs despite Poles are genetically far from being West Slavs - they are genetically EAST SLAVS.

The category West Slavs has no value. Because Poles and Czech are like aliens to each other.
No need to mention that Slovaks are mix of Ukrainians and Hungarians.

The Slovaks are mix of Hussite czech immigrants, polish immigrants, german immigrants local Hungarians and Rusyn minority.

[Magnolia]

Litvin has NO EDUCATION IN GENETICS, he has no education even in biology.
He is oriented on humanities, not on natural science.

[RN97]

But there is no huge genetic border like between Slovenia and Italy (compare Slovenia and Friuli-Veneto):

https://i.imgur.com/Z3NrUkn.png

https://i.imgur.com/Z3NrUkn.png

Generally, there is a good correlation of genes with geography, as the maps that I posted here show:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229733-PCA-vs-Map-of-Polish-regions

Dude, where do you get all the different Romanian samples from different regions?
Also the Moldovans have to be slav-admixed? I wouldn't think they'd plot so far from Romanians.

[Magnolia]

The Slovaks are mix of Hussite czech immigrants, polish immigrants, german immigrants local Hungarians and Rusyn minority.

There was a Slavic tribe (they didn't have a name) in the West Slovakia, East Slovakia = Rusyns (most of them don't feel that identity anymore). Plus there are plenty of Hungarian immigrants (even now almost 1/2 million of Slovaks claim being Hungarians by ethnicity - I have met some of them and they are very proud of it, they usually can even speak Hungarian). eg Vica Kerekes or Szidi Tobias are Slovaks who claim being Hungarians (you have to know more than me if they look Hungarian).

These three "tribes" are the core of modern Slovaks, no need to mention Hussite immigrants, etc. - makes more sense to speak about Vlachs but Hussite immigrants.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

FUNNY TO SEE HOW MUCH POLES insist on the linguistic category West Slavs despite Poles are genetically far from being West Slavs - they are genetically EAST SLAVS.

The category West Slavs has no value. Because Poles and Czech are like aliens to each other.
No need to mention that Slovaks are mix of Ukrainians and Hungarians.

Poles are in average the purest Slavs. So if you want to say that West Slavs want to be Germanic shifted, then i agree with you. But Poles are the purest Slavs. Along with Belarussians.

[Leto]

Poles are in average the purest Slavs. So if you want to say that West Slavs want to be Germanic shifted, then i agree with you. But Poles are the purest Slavs. Along with Belarussians.
Czechs are kind of a mix of Belorussians/Ukrainians and (West) Germans. At least can be modeled as such. And they look accordingly.

[Stears]

There was a Slavic tribe (they didn't have a name) in the West Slovakia, East Slovakia = Rusyns (most of them don't feel that identity anymore). Plus there are plenty of Hungarian immigrants (even now almost 1/2 million of Slovaks claim being Hungarians by ethnicity - I have met some of them and they are very proud of it, they usually can even speak Hungarian). eg Vica Kerekes or Szidi Tobias are Slovaks who claim being Hungarians (you have to know more than me if they look Hungarian).

These three "tribes" are the core of modern Slovaks, no need to mention Hussite immigrants, etc. - makes more sense to speak about Vlachs but Hussite immigrants.

The Hungarians from so-called ''Slovakia'' are real ethnic Hungarians.

[Stears]

Czechs are kind of a mix of Belorussians/Ukrainians and (West) Germans. At least can be modeled as such. And they look accordingly.

They look very eastern like the Ukrainians...

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I see that there is 2 politics (Hungary and Czech) which is directed hostile toward Slovakia.

[Leto]

They look very eastern like the Ukrainians...
No, they don't. Actually, Hungarians are stereotyped as darker in Czechia. That's what I was told by someone who lives there. Czechs, Slovaks, Austrians, East Germans and Hungarians are generally pretty similar genetically and can be called 'Central European'. Not saying they're identical, but very similar. For ex., in Austria many have Czech and Hungarian roots.

[Magnolia]

Czechs are kind of a mix of Belorussians/Ukrainians and (West) Germans. At least can be modeled as such. And they look accordingly.

Our Belarussian who is in love with Czechs. No we are not mix of Belorussians/Ukrainians. It is very funny how everybody wants to be connected with us. Guys, there is nothing so special about us.

[Stears]

I see that there is 2 politics (Hungary and Czech) which is directed hostile toward Slovakia.

Ask the Hungarian user Szegedist how are Hungarians treated in Slovakia.

[Magnolia]

They look very eastern like the Ukrainians...
No, we don't. I can see even in streets who is from Ukraine or Russia... it is visible on the first sight.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Ask the Hungarian user Szegedist how are Hungarians treated in Slovakia.

Why not you? I never heard that Slovaks treated Hungarians bad.

[Leto]

Out Belorussian who is in love with Czechs. No we are not mix of Belorussians/Ukrainians. It is very funny how everybody wants to be connected with us. Guys, there is nothing so special about us.
I'm not in love with you, that's bullshit. My point is that YOU guys are nothing special. There is no unique Czech race totally unrelated to anyone. You're just Central European/West Slavic. The early Slavs expanded westwards from the East, that's a fact. Modern Czechia had a strong German(ic) presence for centuries. Another fact. I don't know why someone would even deny this...

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I'm not in love with you, that's bullshit. My point is that YOU guys are nothing special. There is no unique Czech race totally unrelated to anyone. You're just Central European/West Slavic. The early Slavs expanded westwards from the East, that's a fact. Modern Czechia had a strong German(ic) presence for centuries. Another fact. I don't know why someone would even deny this...

Explained.

[Magnolia]

Poles are in average the purest Slavs. So if you want to say that West Slavs want to be Germanic shifted, then i agree with you. But Poles are the purest Slavs. Along with Belarussians.

I always thought Poles were proud of being Slavic. But at least according to this forum I was wrong. It seems most of them are ashamed of it and they want to be of Germanic origin. And if it is not possible they want to be at least the same people as Czechs are because they know we are more west shifted than they are.

[Stears]

No, they don't. Actually, Hungarians are stereotyped as darker in Czechia. That's what I was told by someone who lives there. Czechs, Slovaks, Austrians, East Germans and Hungarians are generally pretty similar genetically and can be called 'Central European'. Not saying they're identical, but very similar. For ex., in Austria many have Czech and Hungarian roots.

Hahaha, the SLovaks are not so light-pigmented and eastern looking. And they are genetically closer to Ukrainians southern Poles, than to us.

Deal with it.

[Dandelion]

I always thought Poles were proud of being Slavic. But at least according to this forum I was wrong. It seems most of them are ashamed of it and they want to be of Germanic origin. And if it is not possible they want to be at least the same people as Czechs are because they know we are more west shifted than they are.

They hate it even that they're the purest of Slavs alongside Ukrainians and they take out their resentment versus mixed Slavic speaking peoples like Czech and Slovaks. One should pity them, for it's not healthy living a life with an inferiority complex versus one's more successful neighbours. They're victims.

[RockNRoll]

I think that Poles are so obsessed with East Germans, because they have revisionist claims on parts of Germany...
Just my 2 cents :thumb001:

[Magnolia]

I'm not in love with you, that's bullshit. My point is that YOU guys are nothing special. There is no unique Czech race totally unrelated to anyone. You're just Central European/West Slavic. The early Slavs expanded westwards from the East, that's a fact. Modern Czechia had a strong German(ic) presence for centuries. Another fact. I don't know why someone would even deny this...

You always claim about a connection between Czechs and Belarussians - what the hell. For us you are just another Russians... Nobody here has a special feelings for you. And claim we have the same roots - wtf.

[Stears]

Why not you? I never heard that Slovaks treated Hungarians bad.

Because you are undeducated balkan monkey.

read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene%C5%A1_decrees

[Leto]

Hahaha, the SLovaks are not so light-pigmented and eastern looking. And they are genetically closer to Ukrainians southern Poles, than to us.

Deal with it.
Maybe the eastern part of Slovakia. By the way, Hungary shares a border with Ukraine too.

[Ülev]

In the unpublished Second Book Hitler said:

"The National Socialist Movement, on the contrary, will always let its foreign policy be determined by the necessity to secure the space necessary to the life of our Folk. It knows no Germanising or Teutonising, as in the case of the national bourgeoisie, but only the spread of its own Folk. It will never see in the subjugated, so called Germanised, Czechs or Poles a national, let alone Folkish, strengthening, but only the racial weakening of our Folk."

In 1942 he said:

"...Of all the Slavs, the Czech is the most dangerous one, because he is diligent. He has discipline, is orderly, he is more Mongoloid than Slavic. He knows how to hide his plans behind a certain loyalty. ...I don't despise them , it is a battle of destinies. An alien racial splinter has penetrated our folkdom, and one must yield, he or we. ...That's one of the reasons why the Hapsburgs perished. They believed they could solve the problem through kindness."


source: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=230224

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I always thought Poles were proud of being Slavic. But at least according to this forum I was wrong. It seems most of them are ashamed of it and they want to be of Germanic origin. And if it is not possible they want to be at least the same people as Czechs are because they know we are more west shifted than they are.

No. I don't know the Pole who wants to be Germanic shifted. Belarussians especially. Don't think that user "Leto" wants to be Germanic shifted.

[Leto]

For us you are just another Russians...
Lol, I've never said so. I say Central European which is approximately halfway between us and Western Germany and Holland. Culturally you are not similar to us at all.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Because you are undeducated balkan monkey.

read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene%C5%A1_decrees

Why insults Western Hungarian barbarian? Western Hungarian barbarian is speaking about Serbs and Romanians about their agressive politics, but Slovaks actually are calling Slovaks as "so-called Slovakia".

And you send me link from 1945. Hahahhah. Laughable proof.

[Porn Master]

why you slavs are obsessed with bored krauts? xd

[Magnolia]

No. I don't know the Pole who wants to be Germanic shifted. Belarussians especially. Don't think that user "Leto" wants to be Germanic shifted.

then you can't read between the lines.... All TA's Poles want to be Germanic (only Bezprym was an exception, maybe that girl Alicia? i don't remember her nickname - and i am not sure about her because i didn't know her opinions) - but the rest of them are wannabe Germans.

[Stears]

Why insults Western Hungarian barbarian? Western Hungarian barbarian is speaking about Serbs and Romanians about their agressive politics, but Slovaks actually are calling Slovaks as "so-called Slovakia".

And you send me link from 1945. Hahahhah. Laughable proof.

Idiot, the Benes decrees are still valid in Slovakia.

[Leto]

They hate it even that they're the purest of Slavs alongside Ukrainians and they take out their resentment versus mixed Slavic speaking peoples like Czech and Slovaks. One should pity them, for it's not healthy living a life with an inferiority complex versus one's more successful neighbours. They're victims.
Bro, aren't you the one who once said we are a different race than you?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They hate it even that they're the purest of Slavs alongside Ukrainians and they take out their resentment versus mixed Slavic speaking peoples like Czech and Slovaks. One should pity them, for it's not healthy living a life with an inferiority complex versus one's more successful neighbours. They're victims.

Wrong. Poles don't want to be Germanic. It's nonsense.

[Magnolia]

Lol, I've never said so. I say Central European which is approximately halfway between us and Western Germany and Holland. Culturally you are not similar to us at all.

We are what we are. We can't do anything with that. And to be honest nobody cares - we don't suffer from a crises of identity, nothing). But to claim we are mix of BELARUSSIANS and WEST GERMANS - wtf.... it is not true.

[Leto]

No. I don't know the Pole who wants to be Germanic shifted. Belarussians especially. Don't think that user "Leto" wants to be Germanic shifted.
I am not Germanic at all. I'm not even a full Belorussian (I look absolutely passable though). However, Poles do have some Germanic influence, that's also well-known.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

then you can't read between the lines.... All TA's Poles wants to be Germanic (only Bezprym was an exception, maybe that girl Alicia? i don't remember her nickname - and i am not sure about her because i didn't know her opinions) - but the rest of them are wannabe Germans.

I didn't notice that Rethel (Polak) wants to be Germanic :D He is proud of his Slavic R1a-M458 i think.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I am not Germanic at all. I'm not even a full Belorussian (I look absolutely passable though). However, Poles do have some Germanic influence, that's also well-known.

some, but not significant.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

We are what we are. We can't do anything with that. And to be honest nobody cares - we don't suffer from a crises of identity, nothing). But to claim we are mix of BELARUSSIANS and WEST GERMANS - wtf.... it is not true.

That it was in the transference meaning.

[Leto]

some, but not significant.
Well, significant enough to be somewhat different from Ukrainians and especially Russians.

[Magnolia]

I didn't notice that Rethel (Polak) wants to be Germanic :D He is proud of his Slavic R1a-M458 i think.

it is not only rethel, but vandal, litvin, Goobyski and I don't remember nicknames of others. All of them are ashamed of being Slavic, all of them are wannabe Germans.

[Leto]

But to claim we are mix of BELARUSSIANS and WEST GERMANS - wtf.... it is not true.
Belorussians = Slavs
West Germans = Germanics

Unfortunately we don't have early medieval Germanics and Slavs, so I had to model you using the existing references. Not that I literally claimed the Czechs were a mix of two modern groups. You twist my words.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

it is not only rethel, but vandal, litvin, Goobyski and I don't remember nicknames of others. All of them are ashamed of being Slavic, all of them are wannabe Germans.

Maybe. But i don't think that is general situation in Poland. Maybe Matteo Ferro can say us more about it?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Well, significant enough to be somewhat different from Ukrainians and especially Russians.

Yes, but Russians are in average not very "Pure".

[Leto]

Yes, but Russians are in average not very "Pure".
Yeah, but I mean they are a bit more 'Western' than the East Slavs. Especially Kashubians, Silesians, etc.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Yeah, but I mean they are a bit more 'Western' than the East Slavs. Especially Kashubians, Silesians, etc.

Yes, but East slavs are also more Northern shifted, but also Baltic and Finno-Ugric.

[Slavic Italian]

it is not only rethel, but vandal, litvin, Goobyski and I don't remember nicknames of others. All of them are ashamed of being Slavic, all of them are wannabe Germans.

Why? The Slavs prove time and time again to be the stronger of the two.

[Peterski]

FUNNY TO SEE HOW MUCH POLES insist on the linguistic category West Slavs despite Poles are genetically far from being West Slavs - they are genetically EAST SLAVS.

No, only Mazovians are close to East Slavs but that's because of their West Baltic (Prussian, Yotvingian etc.) ancestry.

West Ukrainians are close to Czechs as they harbor high amounts of Mediterranid and Balkanid ancestry, like Czechs.

[Dandelion]

Bro, aren't you the one who once said we are a different race than you?

I can't remember, but there might be something to it yes. ;)

[RN97]

I'm not in love with you, that's bullshit. My point is that YOU guys are nothing special. There is no unique Czech race totally unrelated to anyone. You're just Central European/West Slavic. The early Slavs expanded westwards from the East, that's a fact. Modern Czechia had a strong German(ic) presence for centuries. Another fact. I don't know why someone would even deny this...

Czechs plot a lot more eastern than geography would suggest. There is a noticably bigger difference between Czechs and Germanics that border than in comparasion to Germans and other Germanics bordering them.;
Athanasiadis et al. 2016:
https://i.imgur.com/QWJ1SPg.jpg
Schieffels et al. 2016:
https://i.imgur.com/fgX7BQx.jpg
Kushniarevich et al. 2016:
https://i.imgur.com/JH1FR48.png

Hungarians (From Hungary) are also geographically more eastern, but usually plot more west.

[Magnolia]

Maybe. But i don't think that is general situation in Poland. Maybe Matteo Ferro can say us more about it?

definitely
http://i63.tinypic.com/2hrzllk.jpg

Do you find it funny? I don't. I take it like a pure blackmailing. He doesn't speak about the police for the first time and it is not the first Pole who threatens me. And yes I take it seriously.

[Peterski]

Belorussians = Slavs

Slavs mixed with Balts, as Rugevit's (he is Belarusian) MyHeritage results show:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/5cf4t4.jpg

http://s22.postimg.org/v5lmo3x4f/image.png

[Karol Klačansky]

Maybe the eastern part of Slovakia. By the way, Hungary shares a border with Ukraine too.

not just east slovakia, in fact i would say some south east slovaks are the most hungarian admixed. All of slovaks whether in the west or east are most closely related to southern poles and western ukrainians. Slovaks are half way inbetween Polish and hungarian/croatian average.

https://preview.ibb.co/n0NBsw/Slavs_and_turks_paint.png (https://ibb.co/d8yjCw)

SVK is the slovak average and based on 10 Samples. Dad is my father a full west slovak. Pl.UA is an ethnic pole from Western ukraine. He is literally my dads brother on a PCA plot. Litvin is also not far from my father. We dont know what original slavs yet looked like, but slovaks are not really admixed slavs if they are pure descendants of Western ukrainians who may very well be the original type slavic people. Eastern Poles, Belarusians and other East slavs may very well be mixed with ancient baltic tribs, in the case of Belarus, especially northern belarus, this is most definitely the case. Its also wrong of you to just lump Austrians, East germans, Czechs, hungarians, And Slovaks into central europe. Yes they are related but the grouping doesnt make sense. Austrians based on admixture are more distant to Slovaks than slovaks to poles for example. There seem to be different groups of slavic people from what ive seen. Litvin for example is on the PCA plot and pretty close to my father a slovak.

1) East poles/belarusians/south Russians/non western Ukrainians
2) Western Ukrainians/southern Poles/ Slovaks/ Moravians
3) Slovenians/croatians/Hungarians(quasi slavs genetically)
4)Southern Croatians/Bosnians/Serbians
5)Macedonians/ Bulgarians


Central poles and western poles are inbetween the first two groups
many czechs are for sure admixed with Germans. Me being 3/4 slovak and 1/4 north western euro plot with many bohemian czechs. Its a clear testament to their germanic heritage, but still all czechs are on average gentically over 50% Eastern European if we use Belarussians/Ukrainians as a proxy

[Magnolia]

Belorussians = Slavs
West Germans = Germanics

Unfortunately we don't have early medieval Germanics and Slavs, so I had to model you using the existing references. Not that I literally claimed the Czechs were a mix of two modern groups. You twist my words.

Our genetic history is much more complicated than this.

[Peterski]

Also Poles to the east of Lublin are Polonized Ukrainians, becuse Lublin was the easternmost city of Poland until 1340 when we annexed Red Ruthenia. This is reflected by dialectal differences in the area. Janów Lubelski - Bychawa - Lubartów - Łuków is the Early Medieval eastern borderland of Poland. Poles to the east of this line plot with Ukrainians because they are descended from Polonized Rusyns:

http://biblioteka.teatrnn.pl/dlibra/Content/44308/mapa_5_dl.jpg

"Red Ruthenia" in my map are Poles from Lubelskie, as you can see they are pulled towards Ukraine compared to Lesser Poland:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229733-PCA-vs-Map-of-Polish-regions

https://i.imgur.com/Xx4lrBX.png

https://i.imgur.com/Vwk3mLW.png

But that's not because Poles are close to Ukrainians, it is because Eastern Poles ARE actually Ukrainians (Rusyns).

They are mixed with some original Polish settlers, but still mainly descended from Kievan Rus population:

https://s11.postimg.org/8nj7e20jn/1136.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Grody_czerwienskie.png/220px-Grody_czerwienskie.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/Ruskie_be%C5%82skie.png/1200px-Ruskie_be%C5%82skie.png

[Ülev]

definitely
http://i63.tinypic.com/2hrzllk.jpg

Do you find it funny? I don't. I take it like a pure blackmailing. He doesn't speak about the police for the first time and it is not the first Pole who threatens me. And yes I take it seriously.

in your previous posts you accused me of many bad things, I warned you, and you not stopped, I have everything saved in many ways, when you wrote I am wannabe German but I have German passport - you lie again, and lie on public space, have I check it in the court or you will stop lie about me?

[Leto]

Czechs plot a lot more eastern than geography would suggest. There is a noticably bigger difference between Czechs and Germanics that border than in comparasion to Germans and other Germanics bordering them.;

Well, the charts say the same basically - between the East Slavs and the NW Europeans.

[Dandelion]

definitely
http://i63.tinypic.com/2hrzllk.jpg

Do you find it funny? I don't. I take it like a pure blackmailing. He doesn't speak about the police for the first time and it is not the first Pole who threatens me. And yes I take it seriously.

Notice how he talks about the police. This is because Polish culture is more authoritarian and they rely more on the state in enforcing their disputes to settle them. Recently Poland even passed a bill banning shops from opening on Sunday, because all must comply to the Church. In the Netherlands this only exists in strict Protestant villages through peer pressure of people not buyng from them if they did. :p In Dutch culture Protestants tend to me the most fanatical religiously.

The Czech police would have a laugh about this on the other hand and tell any person with such complaint to not bother them with trivialities.

[Leto]

Slavs mixed with Balts, as Rugevit's (he is Belarusian) MyHeritage results show:

All were once Balto-Slavs. And he might be from Northern Belarus.

[Magnolia]

in your previous posts you accused me of many bad things, I warned you, and you not stopped, I have everything saved in many ways, when you wrote I am wannabe German but I have German passport - you lie again, and lie on public space, have I check it in the court or you will stop lie about me?

First of all you are embarrassing. The second of all you are self hater, the third of all you are an idiot, and no you are not funny. Go to blackmail someone else.

[Ülev]

First of all you are embarrassing. The second of all you are self hater, the third of all you are an idiot, and no you are not funny. Go to blackmail someone else.

ok, will send you police note (pm)
I am not anonymous here (posted some pics) and will not allow to offend my person

[Peterski]

All were once Balto-Slavs. And he might be from Northern Belarus.

He said that his ancestry is from several regions but mostly Vitebsk area.

[Magnolia]

ok, will send you police note (pm)
I am not anonymous here (posted some pics) and will not allow to offend my person
Go ahead. Show me...

[Vlatko Vukovic]

He said that his ancestry is from several regions but mostly Vitebsk area.

Balto-Slavs same origin. Milograd culture...

[Leto]

He said that his ancestry is from several regions but mostly Vitebsk area.
Do you have his Eurogenes K13 results?

[Peterski]

Recently Poland even passed a bill banning shops from opening on Sunday, because all must comply to the Church.

Not shopping on Sunday was banned, but working on Sunday. So shops will be closed. But only every 2nd Sunday for now.


Do you have his Eurogenes K13 results?

No, only K36.

[Peterski]

Bezprym was an exception, maybe that girl Alicia?

Bezprym and Veneda are Eastern Poles who live near the borders with Belarus and Ukraine, in Podlaskie and Lubelskie.

And no I don't want to be close to Germans, I'm Western Polish and we are neither Germans nor Russians as you claim.

Which doesn't mean that I don't like Russia because I'm even a member of the "Friends of Russia" group.

[Magnolia]

Bezprym and Veneda are Eastern Poles who live near the borders with Belarus and Ukraine, in Podlaskie and Lubelskie.

And no I don't want to be close to Germans, I'm Western Polish and we are neither Germans nor Russians as you claim.

Which doesn't mean that I don't like Russia because I'm even a member of the "Friends of Russia" group.

I didn't claim you were Russians are said you were genetically East Slavs.

[Peterski]

I didn't claim you were Russians are said you were genetically East Slavs.

And that is a lie, because Greater Poles are genetically close to Lusatian Sorbs.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I didn't claim you were Russians are said you were genetically East Slavs.

But you claim that they want to be Germanic connected, which in general, is not true.

[Peterski]

But you claim that they want to be Germanic connected, which in general, is not true.

Except for "our Germanics" such as Vandals, Goths and Prussian Germans.

They are ours and not Germany's, and Germany has no claim to their lands.

Historically German propaganda claimed Vandals & Goths as ancestors of Germans, which is not true, as they are ancestors of modern Southern Europeans (those who invaded the Roman Empire) and Poles (those who stayed here and were assimilated by Slavs).

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Except for "our Germanics" such as Vandals, Goths and Prussian Germans.

They are ours and not Germany's and Germany has no claim to their lands.

I mean entirely Germanics... It's not that significant influence there in Poland as people think that is.

[Magnolia]

But you claim that they want to be Germanic connected, which in general, is not true.
Do you have a proof for that? Do you have a proof I am wrong?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Do you have a proof for that? Do you have a proof I am wrong?

There is a proof. You claimed that El Litvino wants to be Western connected, and he said that this is a lie.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Also if i ask other Polish members, i don't think that i would find some significant difference.

[Magnolia]

There is a proof. You claimed that El Litvino wants to be Western connected, and he said that this is a lie.

So that's the proof you are right!

[Magnolia]

Also if i ask other Polish members, i don't think that i would find some significant difference.

As I said you before you were not able to read between lines...

[Token]

Except for "our Germanics" such as Vandals, Goths and Prussian Germans.

They are ours and not Germany's, and Germany has no claim to their lands.

Historically German propaganda claimed Vandals & Goths as ancestors of Germans, which is not true, as they are ancestors of modern Southern Europeans (those who invaded the Roman Empire) and Poles (those who stayed here and were assimilated by Slavs).

Southwestern Europeans have more right of claiming East Germanic legacy than Poles. The greatest part, if not all of them, migrated during the Völkerwanderung and Poles today are basically full-blown Slavs.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

As I said you before you were not able to read between lines...

Ouuh, we can ask person by person who you mention as "want be more western". El Litvino is done. He proved you're wrong. Now we wait Rethel and other Poles.

[Rethel]

FUNNY TO SEE HOW MUCH POLES insist on the linguistic category West Slavs

Really..? but nevermind; I have comfortable chair and... :popcorn:

[Magnolia]

Ouuh, we can ask person by person who you mention as "want be more western". El Litvino is done. He proved you're wrong. Now we wait Rethel and other Poles.

We don't have to wait. All of them will claim it is not true...
And next time all of them will be butthurt again even if you tell them they look even Polish, some of them will be butthurt if you tell them they are Poles and a lot of new threads like this one will be started....

[Vlatko Vukovic]

We don't have to wait. All of them will claim it is not true...
And next time all of them will be butthurt again even if you tell them they look even Polish, some of them will be butthurt if you tell them they are Poles and a lot of new threads like this one will be started....

Rethel also gave his opinion.... I think that you was very wrong in your theories.

[Rethel]

I always thought Poles were proud of being Slavic. But at least according to this forum I was wrong. It seems most of them are ashamed of it and they want to be of Germanic origin. And if it is not possible they want to be at least the same people as Czechs are because they know we are more west shifted than they are.

And you are again wrong, as we are Celts+Goths, Vandals and other
Germans+Slavs+Deutsches+Dutch+Vikings+Swedes+Pruss ians+Iranians+
Yotvingians+Ruthenians+Czechs+Lithuanians+Ukrs+"Belorussians"+Scots
+even English, Irish, French and Spaniards+Tatars+Vlahs+Jews+Armenians.

But mainly Slavs, and the language is slavic, so as a nation maintain slavic identity.

[Magnolia]

Notice how he talks about the police. This is because Polish culture is more authoritarian and they rely more on the state in enforcing their disputes to settle them. Recently Poland even passed a bill banning shops from opening on Sunday, because all must comply to the Church. In the Netherlands this only exists in strict Protestant villages through peer pressure of people not being from them if they did. :p In Dutch culture Protestants tend to me the most fanatical religiously.

The Czech police would have a laugh about this in the other hand and tell any person with such complaint to not bother them with trivialities.

It will be the biggest case in the history of criminality. Somebody said to somebody else he is a wannabe German and idiot on the internet.
Maybe it would be even more interesting if the person who is threatened to be prosecuted would commit suicide, right. On internet everything is possible.

[Rethel]

then you can't read between the lines.... All TA's Poles want to be Germanic (only Bezprym was an exception, maybe that girl Alicia? i don't remember her nickname - and i am not sure about her because i didn't know her opinions) - but the rest of them are wannabe Germans.

How, if I and Multinick are wannabe-Slavs (the same as you), and rest
do not want to be Germans? Do you read some other imaginery TA?

[Magnolia]

And you are again wrong, as we are Celts+Goths, Vandals and other
Germans+Slavs+Deutsches+Dutch+Vikings+Swedes+Pruss ians+Iranians+
Yotvingians+Ruthenians+Czechs+Lithuanians+Ukrs+"Belorussians"+Scots
+even English, Irish, French and Spaniards+Tatars+Vlahs+Jews+Armenians.

But mainly slavs, and the language is slavic, so as a nation maintain slavic identity.

All ethnicities are mixed in some degree... it doesn't change anything on the fact you are together with Belarussians (and maybe Ukrainians) the purest Slavs on the Planet.

[Rumata]

I see many pure Slav individuals from Khabarovsk. I don't know their real origin, bur Russians from there looks Slavic as fuck.
Khabarovsk (as well as Krasnodar) is in the zone of high Hohol density.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ukraine

[Magnolia]

How, if I and Multinick are wannabe-Slavs (the same as you), and rest
do not want to be Germans? Do you read some other imaginery TA?

Rethel, be honest at least to yourself.

[Rethel]

Except for "our Germanics" such as Vandals, Goths and Prussian Germans.

If prussian, then the more also Gorallenfolk, Pogórzanie, Dolińcy, Bambrzy, and many others...

[Rethel]

Rethel, be honest at least to yourself.

I am.
If you think differently, there is a
thread where you can explain it to me.

[Magnolia]

I am.
If you think differently, there is a
thread where you can explain it to me.

I don't want to be mean to you. I will not analyse it to the core. But it is so obvious you are not satisfied with your origin. You should ask yourself why is that so important for you. You live in Poland, nobody will look down on you because you are Polish in Poland. Btw. that internet "look down" attitude of foreigners against Poles/Slavs can be far from reality.

[Rethel]

You live in Poland, nobody will look down on you because you are Polish in Poland.

Yes, and what?
Does it change my provenance? :picard2:

Actually you are the one who hates own roots,
denying it on every possible way, as well as roots
of own wannabeism. Not me. It is really, doubly, strane.

[Magnolia]

Yes, and what?
Does it change my provenance? :picard2:

As I said I don't want to analyse it. Why do you force me to ask you if the majority of your ancestors are not ethnic Poles? You can identify with whoever you want but it makes you look like a self-hater in eyes of many people.

[Peterski]

Southwestern Europeans have more right of claiming East Germanic legacy than Poles. The greatest part, if not all of them, migrated during the Völkerwanderung and Poles today are basically full-blown Slavs.

So explain why do Poles tend to score between 1/4 and 1/3 NW Euro admixtures and it is consistent across calculators.

Here K45 World:

https://i.imgur.com/EFxVVrL.png

Here other tests:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220367-Post-all-your-autosomal-results-in-one-thread&p=4647009&viewfull=1#post4647009

[Peterski]

Polish results in DNA.Land (number "16" is an ethnic Pole with ancestry from Belarus who also has Baltic N1c haplogroup):

https://i.imgur.com/tDt6At6.png

Versus Belarusian result in DNA.Land (user Rugevit, mentioned before):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187622-Post-your-DNA-Land-ancestry-composion-results&p=3889950&viewfull=1#post3889950

https://s10.postimg.org/6tc5fk08p/image.png

^ "North Slavic" component includes also Balts (Latvians & Lithuanians). In MyHeritage, he scores 2/3 Slavic, 1/3 Baltic.

[Magnolia]

Actually you are the one who hates own roots,
denying it on every possible way, as well as roots
of own wannabeism. Not me. It is really, doubly, strane.

Nonsense.
I only refuse Polish crazy theories about Czechs, that's all.

[Leto]

Polish results in DNA.Land (number "16" is an ethnic Pole with ancestry from Belarus who also has Baltic N1c haplogroup):

https://i.imgur.com/tDt6At6.png

Versus Belarusian result in DNA.Land (user Rugevit, mentioned before):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187622-Post-your-DNA-Land-ancestry-composion-results&p=3889950&viewfull=1#post3889950

https://s10.postimg.org/6tc5fk08p/image.png

^ "North Slavic" component includes also Balts (Latvians & Lithuanians). In MyHeritage, he scores 2/3 Slavic, 1/3 Baltic.
My mother (Northern Russian from Vyatka)
https://image.ibb.co/g0OmCw/image.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
I will show you my father's results in a few weeks, he's Belorussian with some ancestry from Central Russia as well.

[Peterski]

My mother (Northern Russian from Vyatka)
https://image.ibb.co/g0OmCw/image.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
I will show you my father's results in a few weeks, he's Belorussian with some ancestry from Central Russia as well.

Lots of Finnish and that's correct as Vyatka (Kirov) is shifted towards Finnic groups (you can't see it here because Finnic groups are off the charts, but they should be above Kostroma), Pskov is shifted towards Balts and Novgorod towards both Balts and Finns:

https://i.imgur.com/MWaAjAL.png

[Rethel]

As I said I don't want to analyse it. Why do you force me to ask you if the majority of your ancestors are not ethnic Poles? You can identify with whoever you want but it makes you look like a self-hater in eyes of many people.

Maggy,

slefhater and wannabe it is someone, who denys the facts and hate them. I don't.

For example, I-men here, who are often nazi, they are butthurted,
that their nacestors were blacky and did not speak IE language.
So they try to deny it, becasue they hate themselves. Did you see
many threads about them their lang, culture, race aso? No. they only
are butthurting themselves, that they are not who they wanted to be
at the first place. This is all what they do. Just an example.

Another example are Hungolians, who claim to be here where they are
since ever, and that all of them (if it is necessary) came from Ural - at
the same time always being here. And noone never was magyrized.

This is wannabeism and slefhatrism. Speaking the truth is not.
You either confusing terminology, or you do not know what is what.

[Rethel]

Nonsense.
I only refuse Polish crazy theories about Czechs, that's all.

Nope.

1. You deny your germanness.
2. You deny czechish slavness.

So, you are even denying
what you wannbe to be :)

[Stears]

Maggy,

slefhater and wannabe it is someone, who denys the facts and hate them. I don't.

For example, I-men here, who are often nazi, they are butthurted,
that their nacestors were blacky and did not speak IE language.
So they try to deny it, becasue they hate themselves. Did you see
many threads about them their lang, culture, race aso? No. they only
are butthurting themselves, that they are not who they wanted to be
at the first place. This is all what they do. Just an example.

Another example are Hungolians, who claim to be here where they are
since ever, and that all of them (if it is necessary) came from Ural - at
the same time always being here. And noone never was magyrized.

This is wannabeism and slefhatrism. Speaking the truth is not.
You either confusing terminology, or you do not know what is what.

The real butthurt is you who try to hide the fact the R-men were semi-mongoloid swarthy migrants from central asia, who want to be white.

Deal with it.

[Stears]

Rethel's Aryan ancestors :)))))

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/3DD9/production/_87833851_taj.jpg

[Magnolia]

Maggy,

slefhater and wannabe it is someone, who denys the facts and hate them. I don't.

For example, I-men here, who are often nazi, they are butthurted,
that their nacestors were blacky and did not speak IE language.
So they try to deny it, becasue they hate themselves. Did you see
many threads about them their lang, culture, race aso? No. they only
are butthurting themselves, that they are not who they wanted to be
at the first place. This is all what they do. Just an example.

Another example are Hungolians, who claim to be here where they are
since ever, and that all of them (if it is necessary) came from Ural - at
the same time always being here. And noone never was magyrized.

This is wannabeism and slefhatrism. Speaking the truth is not.
You either confusing terminology, or you do not know what is what.

Rethel, Rethel. I could understand if these theories were some kind of fun but sometimes it seems you are serious about that.
Yes many nations tend to fabulate their history but this I/R nonsense is a higher level of it.
I can't see any benefits from being interested in it.
The genetic cards are distributed for now as well as modern national identities. To question it will not bring any significant results for reality. The key for a change is in future not in pass. So if you admire eg Germans - don't try to convince people you are a German (despite being born in Poland, live in Poland, keep Polish traditions, etc.) but find a German wife, adopt her culture, move to Germany and have half German children...

[Peterski]

If prussian, then the more also Gorallenfolk, Pogórzanie, Dolińcy, Bambrzy, and many others...

I just use "Prussian" as "east of the Oder-Neisse" (of course it includes Galician etc. Germans as well):

https://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/poland/Images/sld009.gif

http://s1.postimg.org/67d3le1zz/Zabory.png

http://deacademic.com/pictures/dewiki/75/Kingdom_of_Galicia.png

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/germany/prussia17951803.gif

http://www.langstaff.net/Maps/1795map2.jpg

https://etc.usf.edu/maps/pages/7400/7472/7472.jpg

http://www.polishjews.org/maps/partit3.gif

[Leto]

but find a German wife, adopt her culture, move to Germany and have half German children...
I wish Rethel would migrate to India, marry an Indian woman and convert to Hinduism. That would be super Aryan. :)
Like this Indo-European man (half Bengali, half Polish)
http://ethnicelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/AES-073620-Danny-Pudi-400x600.jpg

[Token]

So explain why do Poles tend to score between 1/4 and 1/3 NW Euro admixtures and it is consistent across calculators.

Here K45 World:

Here other tests:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?220367-Post-all-your-autosomal-results-in-one-thread&p=4647009&viewfull=1#post4647009
Sorry for shattering your dreams but this just means that Slavs shares some genetic markers with Germanics, even South Slavs that received little Germanic input shows reasonable levels of Northwestern European-like component. It's perfectly normal considering that both Balto-Slavic and Germanic ethnolinguistic groups evoluted very closely to each other and, to some extent, every Indo-European branches are genetically quite closely related, so this connection dates backs to, at least, the Bronze Age. Also, the categories of this calculator are risible, over-divided and not accurate at all.

[Peterski]

don't try to convince people you are a German

But Rethel is actually about 1/4 Forest German: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche

German settlement in Southern Poland: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/GermanHamletsSince15th.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/GermanHamletsSince15th.jpg

He just doesn't mention this because autosomal DNA is not important for him, only Y-DNA.

[Rethel]

but this I/R nonsense is a higher level of it.

It is not the same, if you are digging for truth.
The same historical truth as anyone esle.


I can't see any benefits from being interested in it.

Benefits is the paleotribal original the oldest possible identity,
which you cannot discover by any other way, that testing Y.
That's all.


The genetic cards are distributed for now as well as modern national identities. To question it will not bring any significant results for reality.

It has nothing to do with changing reality, but with discovering her.
Eaxtly the same, as discovering medieval kmen to which somebody
would belong too or anceint czechish family. It is no different than
reading metrics in archive. But this metric cant be falsifyied or lost.


So if you admire eg Germans

WHERE on forum, did you read that I admire Germans? :picard1:


(despite being born in Poland, live in Poland, keep Polish traditions, etc.)

Do you know, that not everyone born in Poland, living in
Poland and keeping polish traditions is a Polan or a Slav?
I came here too late to claim originality. But if you are
taling about postmedieval Poland then I am 100%. But
this state does no longer exist, and moder idea of the
polishness is equalized to slavness and Mieszko's state,
with which I obviously have nothing to do.


but find a German wife, adopt her culture, move to Germany and have half German children...

I do not have to do this. Why? It has no sense, specially these last part...
how can I have halfgerman children with helga, if with Poless I can have
100% german kids? What is the logic in your assumtion, I cannot get.
Germanness is not a race, is not a folk dance, is not a land. But since
the discovery of paleotribal identity, germanness is meaningless. I just
HAVE to say it for the record, to withstand against anty-euro and the
anty-christian moronism, which rules on this forum.

But if you meant, that German is only this, what have FRG citizenship
and is living there performing some stupid dances - then of course I am
not one of them, and I do not even want to be, as even local negros
can do this. But I am a threedimansional being, and the fouth one has
three subdimansions. Majority of TA morons live only in one. I in three.
so maybe this is the reason why we cannot agree.

[Rethel]

https://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/poland/Images/sld009.gif

And the russian partition is still not returned.... :mad:

[Peterski]

even South Slavs that received little Germanic input shows reasonable levels of Northwestern European-like component

If I remember correctly Bosniensis (who is South Slavic) scores 0% NW Euro, or a few percent maybe.

[Rethel]

I wish Rethel would migrate to India, marry an Indian woman and convert to Hinduism. That would be super Aryan. :)
Like this Indo-European man (half Bengali, half Polish)

It is time for you to study some history.
Autosomalotardism makes you ignorant.

[RN97]

Sorry for shattering your dreams but this just means that Slavs shares some genetic markers with Germanics, even South Slavs that received little Germanic input shows reasonable levels of Northwestern European-like component. It's perfectly normal considering that both Balto-Slavic and Germanic ethnolinguistic groups evoluted very closely to each other and, to some extent, every Indo-European branches are genetically quite closely related, so this connection dates backs to, at least, the Bronze Age. Also, the categories of this calculator are risible, over-divided and not accurate at all.

Your logic doesn't make too much sense to me. So you're claiming that because in general SW. Europeans have more admixture from Germanic tribes, they have more right to claim a connection to them than Slavs that are more similar to them overall?

[Leto]

It is time for you to study some history.
Autosomalotardism makes you ignorant.
I know my rasa and am fine with it, so fock you. :p We still don't know how much Baltic and North Atlantic you score on Eurogenes K13.

[Peterski]

And the russian partition is still not returned.... :mad:

Part of it is - Białowieża Forest. :)

[Stears]

Sorry for shattering your dreams but this just means that Slavs shares some genetic markers with Germanics, even South Slavs that received little Germanic input shows reasonable levels of Northwestern European-like component. It's perfectly normal considering that both Balto-Slavic and Germanic ethnolinguistic groups evoluted very closely to each other and, to some extent, every Indo-European branches are genetically quite closely related, so this connection dates backs to, at least, the Bronze Age. Also, the categories of this calculator are risible, over-divided and not accurate at all.

I do not think Slovenian people have ''little'' Germanic influence...

[Peterski]

Rethel you should order an autosomal test to discover your Forest German relatives (matching on GEDmatch).

Just because you are not interested in admixture proportions doesn't mean that there are no other benefits to it.

[Token]

Your logic doesn't make too much sense to me. So you're claiming that because in general SW. Europeans have more admixture from Germanic tribes, they have more right to claim a connection to them than Slavs that are more similar to them overall?

Slavs can claim genetic proximity to Germanics, if that makes any sense, but they didn't received direct and proper Iron Age Germanic input from Goths and Vandals like they claim, these tribes migrated southwards and settled in Southwestern Europe so they obviously have more right to claim East Germanic heritage.

[Rethel]

I know my rasa and am fine with it,

You have very feminish attitude... mirror mirror
on the wall, who's the fairest of them all...


so fock you. :p We still don't know how much Baltic and North Atlantic you score on Eurogenes K13.

1% and 99% negro.
Are you now happy?

[Rethel]

Rethel you should order an autosomal test to discover your Forest German relatives (matching on GEDmatch).


I don't need them.
I could only test my grandpa's Y just for curiosity, if some relatives of him would emerged...


Just because you are not interested in admixture proportions doesn't mean that there are no other benefits to it.

I made a thread about it couple of days ago.
Noone said anything about such thing.

[RN97]

Slavs can claim genetic proximity to Germanics, if that makes any sense, but they didn't received direct and proper Iron Age Germanic input from Goths and Vandals like they claim, these tribes migrated southwards and settled in Southwestern Europe so they obviously have more right to claim East Germanic heritage.

In that way it's true, but they are indeed correct if they claim to be closer to Germanics than Iberians to Germanics. As you said Balto-slavs and Germanics have very similar decent if you go back far enough. I do however think that some slavs must have gotten some Germanic input somewhere down the line since the iron age. Slovenes and Czechs at least, to be exact. How else would you explain them being much closer to Germanics than Ukranians or Belorusians are?

[Peterski]

Slavs can claim genetic proximity to Germanics, if that makes any sense, but they didn't received direct and proper Iron Age Germanic input from Goths and Vandals like they claim, these tribes migrated southwards and settled in Southwestern Europe so they obviously have more right to claim East Germanic heritage.

That is outdated (20th century) info based on the supposed "settlement vacuum" which existed in Poland during the Migration Period. But when Poland started constructing new highways for Euro 2012, we have discovered a lot of new settlements and some of them were radiocarbon-dated to the Migration Period. Which disproves the idea that all Goths and Vandals left this territory. And this was by the way known already from written sources (if you read them carefully), for example Procopius, History of the Wars, III, xxii, 13-16, wrote:

"(...) Now as for those Vandals who remained in their native land [Poland], neither remembrance nor any name of them has been preserved to my time. (...) they were either overpowered by the neighbouring barbarians or they were mingled with them [Slavs] not at all unwillingly and their name gave way to that of their conquerors. Indeed, when the Vandals were conquered at that time by Belisarius, no thought occurred to them to go from there to their ancestral homes. For they were not able to convey themselves suddenly from Libya to Europe, especially as they had no ships at hand, but paid the penalty [2] there for all the wrongs they had done the Romans and especially the Zacynthians. (...)"

[2] In Arcana, 18, 5 ff., Procopius estimates the number of the Vandals in Africa, at the time of Belisarius, at 80,000 males, and intimates that practically all perished.

Slavs also mixed with Germanic tribes who lived to the east of Poland - mainly Bastarnians, who inhabited Moldova and Western Ukraine.

Goths as you know also inhabited Ukraine. Some of them ended up in Crimea.

[Peterski]

As for Germanic tribes who settled in Southern Europe - a lot of them were actually wiped out by Belisarius during his victorious re-conquest of Italy and Iberia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius#Military_campaigns

Other Germanic tribes which invaded Italy after Goths and Vandals - such as Lombards - finished the job and killed the remaining ones who survived Belisarius.

In North Africa - as Procopius wrote - Belisarius exterminated nearly all of 80,000 Vandals who settled there.

Later the Vandal Kingdom in Iberia was overran by the Moors, Berbers and Arabs, with only remnants surviving in the north.

So you are wrong, there is no any Gothic and Vandal ancestry left in South-Western Europe. Byzantine Empire, Arabs and Moors, as well as North Germanic tribes (such as Lombards, who never lived in the territory of Poland) destroyed them.

[Magnolia]

It is not the same, if you are digging for truth.
The same historical truth as anyone esle.



Benefits is the paleotribal original the oldest possible identity,
which you cannot discover by any other way, that testing Y.
That's all.



It has nothing to do with changing reality, but with discovering her.
Eaxtly the same, as discovering medieval kmen to which somebody
would belong too or anceint czechish family. It is no different than
reading metrics in archive. But this metric cant be falsifyied or lost.



WHERE on forum, did you read that I admire Germans? :picard1:



Do you know, that not everyone born in Poland, living in
Poland and keeping polish traditions is a Polan or a Slav?
I came here too late to claim originality. But if you are
taling about postmedieval Poland then I am 100%. But
this state does no longer exist, and moder idea of the
polishness is equalized to slavness and Mieszko's state,
with which I obviously have nothing to do.



I do not have to do this. Why? It has no sense, specially these last part...
how can I have halfgerman children with helga, if with Poless I can have
100% german kids? What is the logic in your assumtion, I cannot get.
Germanness is not a race, is not a folk dance, is not a land. But since
the discovery of paleotribal identity, germanness is meaningless. I just
HAVE to say it for the record, to withstand against anty-euro and the
anty-christian moronism, which rules on this forum.

But if you meant, that German is only this, what have FRG citizenship
and is living there performing some stupid dances - then of course I am
not one of them, and I do not even want to be, as even local negros
can do this. But I am a threedimansional being, and the fouth one has
three subdimansions. Majority of TA morons live only in one. I in three.
so maybe this is the reason why we cannot agree.

la la la
la la la
la la la


Well, Rethel, we live in 2017 - Europe is divided into modern states/modern nations. If you live in a country/you were born there as well as your parents and their parents... you are seen like a person with a particular ethnicity.

As for genetic tests of origin - it is usually taken like a curiosity. Trust me if you were a Pole and had an African y-DNA haplogroup nobody with brain would consider you as African. Everybody with brain would take it like a curiosity for fun and everybody with brain would know these test results say nothing about majority of your ancestors.

And yes I know not all people living in Poland are modern Poles; some of them are modern Ukrainians.

[Token]

As for Germanic tribes who settled in Southern Europe - a lot of them were actually wiped out by Belisarius during his victorious re-conquest of Italy and Iberia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius#Military_campaigns

Other Germanic tribes which invaded Italy after Goths and Vandals - such as Lombards - finished the job and killed the remaining ones who survived Belisarius.

In North Africa - as Procopius wrote - Belisarius exterminated nearly all of 80,000 Vandals who settled there.

Later the Vandal Kingdom in Iberia was overran by the Moors, Berbers and Arabs, with only remnants surviving in the north.

So you are wrong, there is no any Gothic and Vandal ancestry left in South-Western Europe. Byzantine Empire, Arabs and Moors, as well as North Germanic tribes (such as Lombards, who never lived in the territory of Poland) destroyed them.

First, Longobards were a West Germanic, even if some scholars believe in a East Germanic origin, not North Germanic, tribe. Yes, they left ancestry in Southwestern Europe and this is not stated by me but by geneticists, it's hypothetized that they are the main responsibles for a elevation of Yamnaya ancestry in Iberians during a pos-Bronze Age period. You are just posting old fictional texts written during the Late Antiquity to prove your point, where are the modern genetic studies? You just have these Eurogenes amateur non-sense.

[War Chef]

That is outdated (20th century) info based on the supposed "settlement vacuum" which existed in Poland during the Migration Period.

Poland was vulnerable to Hunnic and later Avars raids which scattered the people (you cannot live being raided constantly, its frustrating). I'm sure some people remained but the settlement vacuum theory has a great deal of truth to it.


Goths as you know also inhabited Ukraine. Some of them ended up in Crimea.

Everyone wants to claim Gothic blood but the only place where they settled in considerable numbers was north-east Bulgaria, where my ancestors came from. North-East Bulgaria was the only official purely Gothic kingdom where they settled as foederati and remained.


The Thracian Goths, also known as Moesogoths or Moesian Goths, refers to the branches of Goths who settled in Thrace and Moesia, Roman provinces in the Balkans. These Goths were mentioned in the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries.

According to Jordanes (fl. 551), the Moesian Goths were taught to write by Ulfilas (311–383).[5] They were, according to him, still present in Moesia, "numerous, but poor and unwarlike, rich in nothing save flocks of various kids and pasture-lands for cattle and forests for wood ... Most of them drink milk".[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Goths

https://i.imgur.com/pVtLT4F.png

https://i.imgur.com/Mhpl2JV.png

https://books.google.com/books?id=xsQxcJvaLjAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Peterski]

Poland was vulnerable to Hunnic and later Avars raids

Huns and Avars never really moved north of the Carpathians (which is where Poland is located).

Poland was forested - it was not steppe such as Pannonian Basin - it was not a good area for horse-riding nomads.

There are only a few culturally Avar and Hunnic isolated archaeological findings from Poland.

[War Chef]

Huns and Avars never really moved north of the Carpathians (which is where Poland is located).

Poland was forested - it was not steppe such as Pannonian Basin - it was not a good area for horse-riding nomads.

There are only a few culturally Avar and Hunnic isolated archaeological findings from Poland.

This is why I said Poland was subject to raiding-parties. You do not understand the Nomads make livelihood stealing the wealth of others. The Pannonian basin (Hungary) was picked as a foward-base for this very reason, it's strategic with access to north-south-east and west.

[Peterski]

This map of Early Medieval Slavic tribes is good because it shows how much of Poland was covered by forests (green):

https://s21.postimg.org/cf6cvbfbr/Tribes2.png

[Rethel]

Well, Rethel, we live in 2017

Yes, and what?
Did this fact erase history?


Europe is divided into modern states/modern nations.

Yes, it is, and I live in this country which I want to.


If you live in a country/you were born there as well as your parents and their parents... you are seen like a person with a particular ethnicity.

You see... yet 100 years ago such "ethnicity" didn't exist, so, what's the point?


As for genetic tests of origin - it is usually taken like a curiosity. Trust me if you were a Pole and had an African y-DNA haplogroup nobody with brain would consider you as African.

And?
It wouldn;t change the fact, that I would be descending from Africa.
What is your problem with that?
Btw, there are couple of millions of Africans who want to enter your country.
Take them - and say they, it is irrelevant, that they have african Y :)


Everybody with brain would take it like a curiosity for fun and everybody with brain would know these test results say nothing about majority of your ancestors.


How, if all ancestros had it, and all were from the same original location, as I would be? :scratch:
Actually, without them, I couldn;t be also.


And yes I know not all people living in Poland are modern Poles; some of them are modern Ukrainians.

:laugh:

[War Chef]

This map of Early Medieval Slavic tribes is good because it shows how much of Poland was covered by forests (green):



How do you explain the etymology of Poland literally means "open feild"?


The Polans (also known as Polanes, Polanians; Polish: Polanie, derived from Old Slavic pole, "field" or "plain", see polje) were a West Slavic tribe, part of the Lechitic group, inhabiting the Warta River basin of the historic Greater Poland region in the 8th century.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polans_(western)

[Peterski]

First, Longobards were a West Germanic, even if some scholars believe in a East Germanic origin, not North Germanic, tribe.

Okay West Germanic, but North Sea Germanic, Ingvaeonic (northern West Germanic).

[Rethel]

How do you explain the etymology of Poland literally means "open feild"?

Explanation: Poland means Fieldland.

What do you not understand yet?

[Peterski]

How do you explain the etymology of Poland literally means "open feild"?

No idea but another etymology is from "polana" which means "forest clearing" (a large open field in the middle of forests).

Another possible etymology is also from "polano" which means "wooden log", so Polans = wood-cutters / lumberjacks.

[War Chef]

No idea but another etymology is from "polana" which means "forest clearing" (a large open field in the middle of forests).

Another possible etymology is also from "polano" which means "wooden log", so Polans = wood-cutters / lumberjacks.

You're silly if you think Poland is immune to raids. All you have to do is follow a river valley, like say Vistula, up the river and you will find settlements (they always spring up near rivers). River valleys are devoid of trees.

[War Chef]

Explanation: Poland means Fieldland.

What do you not understand yet?

I understand more in a day than you in your lifetime.

[Magnolia]

Yes, and what?
Did this fact errise history?



Yes, it is, and I live in this country which I want to.



You see... yet 100 years ago such "ethnicity" didn't exist, so, what's the point?



And?
It wouldn;t change the fact, that I would be descending from Africa.
What is your problem with that?
Btw, there are couple of millions of Africans who want to enter your country.
Take them - and say they, it is irrelevant, that they have african Y :)



How, if all ancestros had it, and all were from the same original location, as I would be? :scratch:
Actually, without them, I couldn;t be also.



:laugh:

To be interested in history too much means rigidity.
So Poles didn't exist 100 years ago? Interesting.
It can mean eg you have an African ancestor who migrated to "Poland" long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long time ago and left there his genetic footprint, the rest of your ancestors can be "real" Poles. It is like to give a drop of beer into sea and claim it is not sea anymore it is beer.
Not all ancestors had it. My dear I know two brothers (no doubts they are brothers by blood) - they took these genetics tests of origin and they got different results and that difference is significant.

[JohnSmith]

I think they both tend to be similar in political beliefs.

[Peterski]

You're silly if you think Poland is immune to raids. All you have to do is follow a river valley, like say Vistula, up the river and you will find settlements (they always spring up near rivers). River valleys are devoid of trees.

But river valleys are marshlands, wetlands, swamps, etc. (until they are drained and made suitable for agriculture)!

Here is what Gallus Anonymus wrote about the retreat of the German army from Silesia after their defeat at Głogów in 1109:

"(...) Wherever the Emperor marched..., he was followed by Bolesław [Polish prince]... When the Emperor was decamping, Bolesław continued to be his inseparable companion. Whoever detached from the main column of Emperor's army, was never finding his way back. If any larger unit, trusting in their own numbers, drifted away from the camp in search of food or forage, Bolesław was bursting between them and the Emperor's main army, cutting off their way back and so those, who attempted to collect war booty, were themselves becoming war booty of Bolesław. With such methods, Bolesław brought the huge and qualitative Emperor's army on the verge of collapse and caused such fear, that... nobody dared to stick out their noses from the camp. No German squire dared to gather grass for horses, nobody dared to go beyond the line of watches for the purpose of defecating. There was great fear of Bolesław at nights and during daytime, they were warning each other: - Bolesław is not sleeping! - when they saw some holt or shrubbery, they were calling: - Beware, Bolesław is lurking there! - There was not a single place, which was not suspected by them of presence of Bolesław's forces. In this way, Bolesław was tirelessly harassing them, capturing several at once either from the front of the marching column, or from the rear, or sometimes after attacking their flanks. This is why Emperor's warriors had to march all day long in full armour and with weapons ready for a fight, constantly and everywhere expecting Bolesław's attacks. During nights they were also all sleeping in their armours, or standing on their posts, others were on the guard as watches, some others were encouraging them: - Watch over!... Beware!... Each day many noble men were dying, their corpses, after disembowelment, were being filled with salt and herbs and put on wagons, which were supposed to transport those corpses back to Bavaria and Saxony, as the only tribute exported from Poland... The Emperor realized, that his very large army could no longer sustain itself, because Bolesław, just like a lioness whose puppies were taken away, was encircling it from all sides. Horses were starving and dying of hunger, people were agonized by constant lack of sleep, long time of the campaign and starvation. Add to this impenetrable thickets of forests, never drying marshes, stinging flies, sharp arrows of obstinate peasants - all of this did not allow the Emperor to accomplish his task (...)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Głogów

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesław_III_Wrymouth

[War Chef]

Here is what Gallus Anonymus wrote about the retreat of the German army from Silesia after their defeat at Głogów in 1109:

"(...) Wherever the Emperor marched..., he was followed by Bolesław [Polish prince]... When the Emperor was decamping, Bolesław continued to be his inseparable companion. Whoever detached from the main column of Emperor's army, was never finding his way back. If any larger unit, trusting in their own numbers, drifted away from the camp in search of food or forage, Bolesław was bursting between them and the Emperor's main army, cutting off their way back and so those, who attempted to collect war booty, were themselves becoming war booty of Bolesław. With such methods, Bolesław brought the huge and qualitative Emperor's army on the verge of collapse and caused such fear, that... nobody dared to stick out their noses from the camp. No German squire dared to gather grass for horses, nobody dared to go beyond the line of watches for the purpose of defecating. There was great fear of Bolesław at nights and during daytime, they were warning each other: - Bolesław is not sleeping! - when they saw some holt or shrubbery, they were calling: - Beware, Bolesław is lurking there! - There was not a single place, which was not suspected by them of presence of Bolesław's forces. In this way, Bolesław was tirelessly harassing them, capturing several at once either from the front of the marching column, or from the rear, or sometimes after attacking their flanks. This is why Emperor's warriors had to march all day long in full armour and with weapons ready for a fight, constantly and everywhere expecting Bolesław's attacks. During nights they were also all sleeping in their armours, or standing on their posts, others were on the guard as watches, some others were encouraging them: - Watch over!... Beware!... Each day many noble men were dying, their corpses, after disembowelment, were being filled with salt and herbs and put on wagons, which were supposed to transport those corpses back to Bavaria and Saxony, as the only tribute exported from Poland... The Emperor realized, that his very large army could no longer sustain itself, because Bolesław, just like a lioness whose puppies were taken away, was encircling it from all sides. Horses were starving and dying of hunger, people were agonized by constant lack of sleep, long time of the campaign and starvation. Add to this impenetrable thickets of forests, never drying marshes, stinging flies, sharp arrows of obstinate peasants - all of this did not allow the Emperor to accomplish his task (...)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Głogów

You are shooting yourself in the foot either way. If it's indeed the case Huns/Tatars could not raid Poland because it's terrain, then that means Indo-Europeans subjugated the region (& beyond because Poland is a stepping stone into proto-Germanic Denmark) on foot not horseback. Also that means your Polish tales of "Sarmatianism" are just that, tales. Because the mounted Sarmatians cannot access the land as you say.

[Peterski]

In year 1000 AD most of Poland were forests. 500 years later, in 1500 AD, most of Poland were farmlands.

Those were two different Polands, the first one was very difficult for any invading army, the 2nd was not.

[Bobby Martnen]

And the russian partition is still not returned.... :mad:

As much as I disagree with you on some other things (R vs I, for example), I'm in complete agreement here. Poland needs their 1933 Eastern Border back, or Lemberg, Grodno, and Brest at the very least.

[Peterski]

Because the mounted Sarmatians cannot access the land as you say.

Maybe they dismounted before coming to Poland? :cool:

BTW, Polish Early Medieval armies also used a lot of cavalry. But horses were smaller than those used in Late Middle Ages. They were local breeds of "forest horses". And if we believe Gallus Anonymus, the proportion of infantry to cavalry in the Polish army in 1000 AD was like 3:1 in favor of infantry. While in Late Medieval and Early Renaissance Polish armies, usually cavalry was more numerous than infantry. Certainly it was also related to changing landscapes of battlefields (deforestation and Polish expansion into Ukrainian steppes where we met more mobile enemies).

[Leto]

You are shooting yourself in the foot either way. If it's indeed the case Huns/Tatars could not raid Poland because it's terrain, then that means Indo-Europeans subjugated the region (& beyond because Poland is a stepping stone into proto-Germanic Denmark) on foot not horseback. Also that means your Polish tales of "Sarmatianism" are just that, tales. Because the mounted Sarmatians cannot access the land as you say.
Poles have very little Asian admixture, 1-2% or so. Litvin could flood you with GEDmatch numbers.

[Peterski]

Polish army in 1000 AD based on Gallus Anonymus was 4200 loricati (divided into 14 units x 300) and 13000 clipeati (divided into 13 units x 1000). It is believed that loricati (armoured men) were cavalry and clipeati (shieldmen) were infantry but it is not certain (maybe loricati were heavy cavalry + heavy infantry and clipeati light cavalry + light infantry). Of course that is just regular army (druzhina) and it doesn't include general levy such as those "obstinate peasants", who could be called to arms if their local area was in danger of enemy invasion.

[War Chef]

Poles have very little Asian admixture, 1-2% or so. Litvin could flood you with GEDmatch numbers.

It does not matter. I understand what little Asian admix Poles (& thus your Belorusians) have is from Finno-Ugric residues if anything, but just because the people do not show Mongoloid admixture does not mean they weren't subject to their raids/domination. Do I need to remind you Hungarians show little Mongoloid DNA but were dominated by them?

https://i.imgur.com/1byTiYR.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_of_Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s

[Dick]

It does not matter. I understand what little Asian admix Poles (& thus your Belorusians) have is from Finno-Ugric residues if anything, but just because the people do not show Mongoloid admixture does not mean they weren't subject to their raids/domination. Do I need to remind you Hungarians show little Mongoloid DNA but were dominated by them?

https://i.imgur.com/1byTiYR.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_of_Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s
http://www.dandebat.dk/dk-images/813p.jpg

[Peterski]

they didn't received direct and proper Iron Age Germanic input from Goths and Vandals like they claim, these tribes migrated southwards and settled in Southwestern Europe so they obviously have more right to claim East Germanic heritage.

Y-DNA haplogroups typical for Slavs are mainly R1a and I2a1b2, but not all of R1a in Poland is Slavic (some of it belongs to typically Baltic subclades). About 1/2 of Polish men have Slavic subclades of R1a or I2a. What about the other half? Also first results of ancient DNA from Early Medieval Poland show that already at that time we had many people with Non-Slavic Y-DNA. Some samples:

Sample ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384
Sample GO_1, Gniezno (1000-1200 AD), R1b1a2-L150.1
Sample NA_18, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), J2a1a-L26

And this one is Slavic:

Sample NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

At least one of them - ME_7 from Markowice - has a Germanic haplogroup. Descendant of Goths/Vandals?

I1a2a2a5-Y5384 is not a typically Scandinavian or Norse subclade of I1, so he was not a Viking.

A typically Scandinavian branch of I1 is I1a1, not I1a2.

[Hamlet]

Y-DNA haplogroups typical for Slavs are mainly R1a and I2a1b2, but not all of R1a in Poland is Slavic (some of it belongs to typically Baltic subclades). About 1/2 of Polish men have Slavic subclades of R1a or I2a. What about the other half? Also first results of ancient DNA from Early Medieval Poland show that already at that time we had many people with Non-Slavic Y-DNA. Some samples:

Sample ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384
Sample GO_1, Gniezno (1000-1200 AD), R1b1a2-L150.1
Sample NA_18, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), J2a1a-L26

And this one is Slavic:

Sample NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

Litvin sorry for quoting but you are such a procrastinator - you promised, especially after you were paid, that you'd sent the K36 for the samples I messaged you, but you still haven't done it or even replied to my message, so yeah.

[Peterski]

Hamlet you paid for the map, not for my data on which it is based. :p But wait I will send you the data that you want.

[Hamlet]

Hamlet you paid for the map, not for my data on which it is based. :p But wait I will send you the data that you want.

I know but you promised and you keep blanking me - I'd rather you just said no than kept ignoring me!

[Leto]

It does not matter. I understand what little Asian admix Poles (& thus your Belorusians) have is from Finno-Ugric residues if anything, but just because the people do not show Mongoloid admixture does not mean they weren't subject to their raids/domination. Do I need to remind you Hungarians show little Mongoloid DNA but were dominated by them?

That man on the vessel might have been white.

[Token]

Y-DNA haplogroups typical for Slavs are mainly R1a and I2a1b2, but not all of R1a in Poland is Slavic (some of it belongs to typically Baltic subclades). About 1/2 of Polish men have Slavic subclades of R1a or I2a. What about the other half? Also first results of ancient DNA from Early Medieval Poland show that already at that time we had many people with Non-Slavic Y-DNA. Some samples:

Sample ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384
Sample GO_1, Gniezno (1000-1200 AD), R1b1a2-L150.1
Sample NA_18, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), J2a1a-L26

And this one is Slavic:

Sample NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

At least one of them - ME_7 from Markowice - has a Germanic haplogroup. Descendant of Goths/Vandals?

Y5384 is a subclade found mostly in Finland, it's highly unlikely that it comes from East Germanic tribes.

[Peterski]

I know but you promised and you keep blanking me - I'd rather you just said no than kept ignoring me!

I was just very busy, okay I will take a look at this in a few hours.

[Hamlet]

I was just very busy, okay I will take a look at this in a few hours.

No rush, idm when :)

[Peterski]

Y5384 is a subclade found mostly in Finland, it's highly unlikely that it comes from East Germanic tribes.

Maybe it comes from Elbe Germanic (Irminonic) people, who lived in south-western Poland.

[Peterski]

His autosomal results look very Slavic despite the fact that he was I1a2a2a5-Y5384.

So he was not a recent immigrant for sure.

[Dick]

I know but you promised and you keep blanking me - I'd rather you just said no than kept ignoring me!

bro, your gay gene rs314277 is showing. Relax.

[Hamlet]

bro, your gay gene rs314277 is showing. Relax.

Technically, I didn't score AA, but sure, whatever

[Dick]

Technically, I didn't score AA, but sure, whatever

okay, half then.

[spik]

Technically, I didn't score AA, but sure, whatever

It’s all fake anyways.

[Rethel]

As much as I disagree with you on some other things (R vs I, for example), I'm in complete agreement here. Poland needs their 1933 Eastern Border back, or Lemberg, Grodno, and Brest at the very least.

I meant rather borders at least from 1772 and the system from +/- 1787.

[Rethel]

To be interested in history too much means rigidity.
So Poles didn't exist 100 years ago? Interesting.

I said "ethnicity" which you mean today.
Poles existed, but many of modern Poles, if not majority, were not them.
Yet 50 years ago some were not recognized as such by the real ones.


It can mean eg you have an African ancestor who migrated to "Poland" long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long time ago and left there his genetic footprint,

And thats the point.
The same will do modern migrants. Embrase them! :)


the rest of your ancestors

What rest?
You like judaica, then read the chief jewish sentence in my signature.


can be "real" Poles.

Again, it depends on the definition of Poles.
If you mean slavic Poles from Xth century, then I am not, and never will be.
If you mean Poles from XV-XXth centuries - then I am 100%.
If you mean community of citizens, then I am 100%.

But we are talking here about nationality, which as the
name says, has something to do with bornness. As such,
I can;t be, as I disproved it allready in XIVth century.
A non-Pole cannot begat a Pole as an apple tree cannot
have carrots as a fruit. It just can't be.


It is like to give a drop of beer in to sea and claim it is not sea anymore it is beer.

NATIONALITY IS NOT A RACE. :picard2:


Not all ancestors had it. My dear I know two brothers (no doubts they are brothers by blood) - they took these genetics tests of origin and they got different results and that difference is significant.

And this is why taking personal au test is totaly sensless.

I am not a hybrid, I am from one seed and one trunk.
If somebody thinks he is of many, then he should go
to the doctor to diagnose a schizophrenia.

[Rethel]

(R vs I, for example),

What is here to disagree?
Are they the same? No.
Are they from the same origin? No.
Did they have the same forefather? No.

So, what do you disagree with?

[Bobby Martnen]

What is here to disagree?
Are they the same? No.
Are they from the same origin? No.
Did they have the same forefather? No.

So, what do you disagree with?

Your claim that R is more European, even though I has been in Europe longer

[Karol Klačansky]

Do you have his Eurogenes K13 results?

Ive seen his dodecad results before, he has a whopping 37% eastern euro from the V3 test. The guy is a very proto eastern european type.

[Leto]

Ive seen his dodecad results before, he has a whopping 37% eastern euro from the V3 test. The guy is a very proto eastern european type.
I'm 32.52% Eastern European on that test.

[Karol Klačansky]

I'm 32.52% Eastern European on that test.Yes and you are russian. I see usually highest most east slavs around 32/33% 37% is reaching baltic level.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Rethel]

Your claim that R is more European, even though I has been in Europe longer

I don;t remember if I did say such thing, as I do not
recognize/care about europeanness per se, but I could
something similar, because it depends in which sense.

R is the (not more!) european in the cultural/civilizational
sense, as Indoeuropeans were those people, who did create
this, what we called today "Europe" - not only the name and
land, but values, technology, language, identity, faith, spirit,
states, mentality and whatever have you. And NOT only for
themsleves, but for anyone, who lives here - so also I-men
can benefit from it and make use from this unique collection
of principles and created enviroment. Other people are users,
not creators of euro-world and anything what is bind to it.

But if you mean who was first in Europe, then there is no
winner, as I wasn;t first, and even if would be, then, then
there was no Europe. First were C1 in majority of territory,
and R1 on the eastern parts or outskirts (hard to describe
it precisely). I could be also in some parts, it is still not yet
for certain known, and on the north first could be Q-people.
But as I said: then there was nothing european about any
of these peoples, as Europe did not existed. These were just
separate folks - totaly separate by clan, race, language and
geographical place of living. Arguing about being more euro
is totaly sensless, as it can have couple of meanings and
usually is used by wannabe racists to proof Idk yet what,
as they usually do not know either in their butthurtness.

[Peterski]

I know two brothers (no doubts they are brothers by blood) - they took these genetics tests of origin and they got different results and that difference is significant.

Only identical twins have 100% identical DNA.

Siblings inherit different segments of DNA from their parents, and threfore can have slightly different ancestry proportions. Paper trail genealogy is one thing, genetic genealogy is another thing. DNA from some ancestors can be lost during recombination.

But also infidelity etc. is possible (different fathers).

[Stears]

I don;t remember if I did say such thing, as I do not
recognize/care about europeanness per se, but I could
something similar, because it depends in which sense.

R is the (not more!) european in the cultural/civilizational
sense, as Indoeuropean were those people, who did create
this, what we called today "Europe" - not only the name and
land, but values, technology, language, identity, faith, spirit,
states, mentality and whatever have you. And NOT only for
themsleves, but for anyone, who lives here - so also I-men
can benefit from it and make use from this unique collection
of principles and created enviroment. Other people are users,
not creators of euro-world and anything what is bind to it.

But if you mean who was first in Europe, then there is no
winner, as I wasn;t first, and even if would be, then then
there was no Europe. First were C1 in majority of territory,
and R1 on the eastern parts or outskirts (hard to describe
it precisely). I could be also in some parts, it is still not yet
for certain known, and on the north first could be Q-people.
But as I said: then there was nothing european about any
of these peoples, as Europe did not existed. These were just
separate folks - totaly separate by clan, race, language and
geographical place of living. Arguing about being more euro
is totaly sensless, as it can have couple of meanings and
usually is used by wannabe racists to proof Idk yet what,
as they usually do not knwo either in theor butthurtness.

Laughable fantasy tales. you haven't created anything. the first indoeuropean civilisation in the old greece was semitic haplogroup J, and no R was found.

deal with painful reality.

[PostOak1]

I have some German and I am R1a-L260.

My Y chromosome is R1a-L1029 and it comes from an ancestor who was German, but I acknowledge the fact because of our surname and region that they are from that we were Germanized Slavs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Leto]

Yes and you are russian. I see usually highest most east slavs around 32/33% 37% is reaching baltic level.
Full Belorussians

East_European 35.26
East_European 31.27
East_European 35.16

A Northwestern Russian (roots in Tver, Novgorod and St. Petersburg):
East_European 36.12

[Karol Klačansky]

Full Belorussians

East_European35.26
East_European31.27
East_European35.16

A Northwestern Russian (roots in Tver, Novgorod and St. Petersburg):
East_European36.12Proves the point that belarusians are baltic shifted. The guy who scored 37% is from northern belarus

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[War Chef]

Proves the point that belarusians are baltic shifted. The guy who scored 37% is from northern belarus

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

The Balts and Slavs are one and the same (in fact they called it "Balto-Slavic") Only difference is the Slavs hid in the forests, then thinking the Hunnic threat was over came out of hiding , only to have the Avars smear them all across Europe+Balkans like butter is smeared onto a slice of bread by a knife.

[Karol Klačansky]

The Balts and Slavs are one and the same (in fact they called it "Balto-Slavic") Only difference is the Slavs hid in the forests, then thinking the Hunnic threat was over came out of hiding , only to have the Avars smear them all across Europe+Balkans like butter is smeared onto a slice of bread by a knife.Lingustics doesnt equal genetics, balts are clearly separate genetically from almost all slavs. This was most likely already the case historically. Slavs were always more admixed than balts. They are similar groups but not the same

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[Leto]

The Balts and Slavs are one and the same (in fact they called it "Balto-Slavic") Only difference is the Slavs hid in the forests, then thinking the Hunnic threat was over came out of hiding , only to have the Avars smear them all across Europe+Balkans like butter is smeared onto a slice of bread by a knife.
Bro, are you half Russian half Dagestani?

[ALL]

Differences between East German and West Slavic regional samples in Eurogenes K36:

https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png

https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png

Sample sizes were listed here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229733-PCA-vs-Map-of-Polish-regions&p=4835932&viewfull=1#post4835932

Can you make a K36 pca plot?

[ALL]

Laughable fantasy tales. you haven't created anything. the first indoeuropean civilisation in the old greece was semitic haplogroup J, and no R was found.

deal with painful reality.
We were in your region before it was called Hungary-

Like the Małopolskan Beakers from the previous post, the initial Beaker ethnic is wholly alien to this region, being characterized as a tall, Alpine, wide-faced, strongly-built people with pronounced brachycephaly. The prominent noses, cheeks and mastoid processes are often remarked upon, including from the Köhler paper below.....

Grave 688 (I2787, GEN 59): Male individual lying of his left side, in contracted
position. The rectangular shaped grave pit, oriented northeast–southwest, was enclosed
by a round ditch. Grave good include a small jar. The radiocarbon date is:
I2787/GEN_59/Grave 688: 2458–2202 calBCE (3840±35 BP, Poz-83640) [R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103)
Szigetszentmiklós Cemetery (Santa's Six Foot Elves)
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.ca/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html

[War Chef]

Bro, are you half Russian half Dagestani?

No but I'm Slavish. The way I describe history is reality, though maybe rough sounding words. My ancestors (Antes) got decimated and migrated to Balkans.

[spik]

No but I'm Slavish. The way I describe history is reality, though maybe rough sounding words. My ancestors (Antes) got decimated and migrated to Balkans.

If you’re actually slavish then you need to free yourself from invisible chains.

[MercifulServant]

Russians and Belarusians are not pure Slavs as many regions (for example Pskov, Novgorod and Vitebsk) pull towards Balts, and many others (for example Kostroma, Perm, Kirov, Tver) pull towards Finno-Ugric populaions.

Hahaha what a joke russians are more slavic than germanic poles

[Peterski]

The Balts and Slavs are one and the same

No, it would be like saying that Celts and Italics are the same.

[Stears]

Hahaha what a joke russians are more slavic than germanic poles

Idiot, Poles are more Slavic than the Russians by genetics.

[MercifulServant]

Idiot, Poles are more Slavic than the Russians by genetics.

They are Germanic pawns though and it also depends which russians

[Stears]

They are Germanic pawns though and it also depends which russians

Wrong. Your wishful thinking won't make Russians more Slavic.

[Bosniensis]

Hahaha what a joke russians are more slavic than germanic poles

Russians have strong Turkic admixture as well.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They are Germanic pawns though and it also depends which russians

Poles and Belarussians are the purest Slavs genetically. In Russia, a lot of towns and regions are not Slavic.. but their identity is, of course.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Russians have strong Turkic admixture as well.

Not very Turkic, but Finno-Ugric in northern parts. Slavic Russians are in Smolensk, Oryol, Voronezh, Volgograd, etc.. in this "smaller" towns you can find pure Slavic Russians.