Hungarian Germans GEDmatch results (edit: also some other East Germans)

[Peterski]

Gertrude Posch born in Vocklabruck Upper Austria, parents from:

Desiderius Pass, b. 28 JAN 1925, Zalaegerszeg, Hungary
Rosa Lidia Rosner, b. 1932, Davideni, Land of Bukovina

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 29.39
2 Baltic 15.23
3 Atlantic 14.74
4 Eastern_Euro 13.11
5 West_Med 11.91
6 East_Med 7.08
7 West_Asian 5.8
8 Oceanian 1.18
9 Red_Sea 0.72
10 Southeast_Asian 0.61
11 Amerindian 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 7.18
2 East_German 8.1
3 West_German 9.57
4 Serbian 10.71
5 Austrian 11.23
6 Moldavian 11.25
7 Croatian 12.08
8 South_Dutch 12.12
9 North_Swedish 13.11
10 North_German 13.53
11 French 13.55
12 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.8
13 Swedish 13.84
14 Southwest_Finnish 14.01
15 Ukrainian 14.24
16 Norwegian 14.26
17 Romanian 14.32
18 South_Polish 14.47
19 Finnish 14.78
20 North_Dutch 15.05

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.9% West_German + 45.1% Moldavian @ 4.24
2 63.3% North_Swedish + 36.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.77
3 61.3% Hungarian + 38.7% West_German @ 5.02
4 60.8% Moldavian + 39.2% West_Norwegian @ 5.04
5 62.1% West_German + 37.9% Ukrainian @ 5.06
6 61.3% West_German + 38.7% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.08
7 57.1% Moldavian + 42.9% Norwegian @ 5.29
8 74.5% West_German + 25.5% Erzya @ 5.35
9 58% Serbian + 42% Swedish @ 5.49
10 57.9% West_German + 42.1% Croatian @ 5.5
11 58.9% Serbian + 41.1% Norwegian @ 5.52
12 62.8% Serbian + 37.2% West_Norwegian @ 5.6
13 70.9% West_German + 29.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.66
14 52.7% North_Swedish + 47.3% Romanian @ 5.71
15 56.6% Serbian + 43.4% North_Swedish @ 5.71
16 50.1% Norwegian + 49.9% Romanian @ 5.75
17 66.9% North_Swedish + 33.1% Greek @ 5.76
18 56.6% Moldavian + 43.4% Swedish @ 5.76
19 71.2% West_German + 28.8% Southwest_Russian @ 5.79
20 58.3% North_Swedish + 41.7% Bulgarian @ 5.79

==========

Dietrich Paul Posch born in Vocklabruck Upper Austria, parents from:

Desiderius Pass, b. 28 JAN 1925, Zalaegerszeg, Hungary
Rosa Lidia Rosner, b. 1932, Davideni, Land of Bukovina

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 25.13
2 Atlantic 17.66
3 Baltic 14.62
4 West_Med 13.2
5 Eastern_Euro 13.06
6 East_Med 6.2
7 West_Asian 5.47
8 Red_Sea 2.58
9 Southeast_Asian 0.96
10 Amerindian 0.51
11 Oceanian 0.37
12 Siberian 0.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 6.2
2 East_German 6.44
3 Serbian 8
4 Austrian 8.22
5 Moldavian 9.81
6 Croatian 9.92
7 West_German 10.41
8 South_Dutch 10.58
9 French 11.37
10 Romanian 12.02
11 North_German 13.4
12 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.65
13 South_Polish 13.86
14 Ukrainian 14.12
15 Southwest_Finnish 14.21
16 North_Swedish 14.89
17 Bulgarian 15.06
18 Southwest_English 15.11
19 Spanish_Galicia 15.24
20 Danish 15.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.1% Moldavian + 45.9% French @ 3.41
2 51.7% Moldavian + 48.3% West_German @ 3.46
3 87.6% East_German + 12.4% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.65
4 78.9% East_German + 21.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.71
5 52.2% Moldavian + 47.8% South_Dutch @ 3.72
6 83% East_German + 17% Ashkenazi @ 3.73
7 75.1% Hungarian + 24.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.81
8 86.3% East_German + 13.7% Italian_Jewish @ 3.82
9 61.8% Moldavian + 38.2% Southwest_English @ 3.85
10 87% East_German + 13% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.91
11 69% Hungarian + 31% French @ 3.93
12 83.9% East_German + 16.1% East_Sicilian @ 3.96
13 90.1% East_German + 9.9% Samaritan @ 3.98
14 83.7% East_German + 16.3% Central_Greek @ 3.99
15 89% East_German + 11% Cyprian @ 4.05
16 56% French + 44% Ukrainian @ 4.07
17 77.5% Hungarian + 22.5% Portuguese @ 4.08
18 90.5% East_German + 9.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.1
19 69.2% Serbian + 30.8% Norwegian @ 4.1
20 87.2% East_German + 12.8% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.11

[Antimage]

They are obviously not pure germans - as I expected

[Stears]

They are obviously not pure germans - as I expected

because there was no religious or social obstacles for them to mix with hungarians

[Antimage]

because there was no religious or social obstacles for them to mix with hungarians

I've seen it in real life, people who were 1/2 or 1/4 german rest hungarian referred to themselves as Germans, I find it a little self hating.

[Stears]

I've seen it in real life, people who were 1/2 or 1/4 german rest hungarian referred to themselves as Germans, I find it a little self hating.

the neo-Cumanians ?

[Peterski]

From which regions of the HRE did Germans who settled in Medieval Hungary originally come from?

[Antimage]

the neo-Cumanians ?

No, they were from Komárom-Esztergom county.


From which regions of the HRE did Germans who settled in Medieval Hungary originally come from?
What is "HRE"? I think most were from Swabia/SW Germany - which is why they were historically called Swabians here. Kiel(a member here) says he's 3/4 german and his german ancestry is from Northern Germany.

[Peterski]

They are obviously not pure germans - as I expected

Based on Germans from Poland that I found on GEDmatch (and I found many), I think they are mostly like East Germans (Elbe-Oder area) + additional Slavic/Polish and Old Prussian admixtures. So they are on average more eastern-shifted than East Germans from the Elbe-Oder area, who are already very Slavic-admixed. I think this is in line with migration patterns (most of Germans who settled west of the Oder did not come directly from West Germany, but from previously Christianized and Germanized Slavic lands between the Elbe and Oder).

These Hungarian Germans that I posted look intermediate between East Germans and Hungarians.

But where did Germans who settled in Hungary originate? Did they come from places like Sachsen in East Germany?

As for "pure Germans" - ironically the most pure Germans are not Germans, but Dutch people.

[Stears]

From which regions of the HRE did Germans who settled in Medieval Hungary originally come from?

The early medieval Germans come from northern German territories and Netherlands too. Only the modern era Swabian settlers are from southern Germany. The Transylvanian Germans are Saxons (north germans) too.

But Bavarian people always lived in Sopron area for example.

[Antimage]

But where did Germans who settled in Hungary originate?


According to wikipedia from Austria, South Germany and Saxony, but it isn't sourced.

[Stears]

According to wikipedia from Austria, South Germany and Saxony, but it isn't sourced.

Germans around Buda are traditionally northern German and Netherlander origin.

[Peterski]

The Transylvanian Germans are Saxons (north germans) too.

As far as I know they are only called "Saxons", but they did not actually come from Lower Saxony.

They came from some other area, I don't remember which. But not from original Saxon lands.

Original Saxon lands were in northern parts of Lower Sxony and in western part of Holstein.

[Lavrentis]

What is "HRE"?

Holy Roman Empire


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lavrentis]

As far as I know they are only called "Saxons", but they did not actually come from Lower Saxony.

They came from some other area, I don't remember which. But not from original Saxon lands.

I think they came from Central Germany


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Antimage]

Germans around Buda are traditionally nothern German and Netherlander origin.

I talked to a guy who claimed to be part german, he said when he started researching the surnames in his family tree some curiously turned out to be dutch surnames, he even told me which were these surnames but I forgot

[Peterski]

Today there are three German states called after Saxons - Lower Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Saxony.

But Saxony was originally (in the Early Middle Ages) Slavic territory. Original Saxony is Lower Saxony.

[Stears]

As far as I know they are only called "Saxons", but they did not actually come from Lower Saxony.

They came from some other area, I don't remember which. But not from original Saxon lands.

Original Saxon lands were in northern parts of Lower Sxony and in western part of Holstein.

They don't come from eastern Germany for sure.

[Stears]

I talked to a guy who claimed to be part german, he said when he started researching the surnames in his family tree some curiously turned out to be dutch surnames, he even told me which were these surnames but I forgot

Yes, many of the Germans in medieval Hungary come from netherlands area or close to it. so they were real germanic germans unlike the later swabian immigrants

[Peterski]

Here is a German born in Rostock (Mecklenburg), but with a father from western Holstein:

Rüdiger Schwarck, born in 1942 in Rostock, parents:

Friedel Pißny, b. 1 MAY 1916, Nieden, Uecker-Randow, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Johann Albert Schwarck, b. 5 JAN 1875, Wilster, Steinburg, Schleswig-Holstein

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 27.5
2 Atlantic 23.17
3 Baltic 22.68
4 Eastern_Euro 15.41
5 West_Med 3.58
6 West_Asian 2.98
7 East_Med 2.62
8 Red_Sea 1.22
9 Sub-Saharan 0.56
10 Amerindian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Finnish 6.05
2 East_German 7.97
3 Finnish 8.86
4 Polish 8.98
5 South_Polish 9.13
6 Hungarian 9.69
7 Austrian 9.93
8 North_Swedish 10.68
9 Estonian 10.86
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.89
11 Ukrainian 10.92
12 North_German 11.56
13 Croatian 11.78
14 Russian_Smolensk 12.06
15 Swedish 12.68
16 Belorussian 12.8
17 East_Finnish 12.89
18 La_Brana-1 13.05
19 Estonian_Polish 13.38
20 Southwest_Russian 13.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.2% Belorussian + 43.8% West_Scottish @ 1.8
2 52.1% Belorussian + 47.9% Danish @ 1.87
3 55.4% Belorussian + 44.6% Irish @ 1.88
4 58.1% North_German + 41.9% Lithuanian @ 1.98
5 52.6% North_German + 47.4% Belorussian @ 1.98
6 53% Belorussian + 47% North_Dutch @ 2.02
7 59.2% Belorussian + 40.8% Orcadian @ 2.19
8 53.5% Danish + 46.5% Lithuanian @ 2.42
9 50.6% Lithuanian + 49.4% West_Scottish @ 2.44
10 56.2% Belorussian + 43.8% Southeast_English @ 2.46
11 50.2% Irish + 49.8% Lithuanian @ 2.5
12 50.5% Lithuanian + 49.5% Southeast_English @ 2.55
13 53.7% Russian_Smolensk + 46.3% Danish @ 2.57
14 54.5% Russian_Smolensk + 45.5% North_Dutch @ 2.58
15 53.8% North_German + 46.2% Estonian_Polish @ 2.58
16 51.8% Estonian_Polish + 48.2% North_Dutch @ 2.62
17 50.9% Estonian_Polish + 49.1% Danish @ 2.65
18 57.8% Russian_Smolensk + 42.2% West_Scottish @ 2.66
19 54.1% Southwest_Russian + 45.9% Irish @ 2.73
20 55.1% Estonian_Polish + 44.9% West_Scottish @ 2.73

Still very Slavic-shifted even though his father is from area which was never settled by Slavs.

But his mother is from Vorpommern (Uecker-Randow is located close to the Oder River).

I'm sure that his mother's results would be more Slavic-shifted.

[Antimage]

Here is a German born in Rostock (Mecklenburg), but with a father from western Holstein:

Rüdiger Schwarck, born in 1942 in Rostock, parents:

Friedel Pißny, b. 1 MAY 1916, Nieden, Uecker-Randow, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Johann Albert Schwarck, b. 5 JAN 1875, Wilster, Steinburg, Schleswig-Holstein

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 27.5
2 Atlantic 23.17
3 Baltic 22.68
4 Eastern_Euro 15.41
5 West_Med 3.58
6 West_Asian 2.98
7 East_Med 2.62
8 Red_Sea 1.22
9 Sub-Saharan 0.56
10 Amerindian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Finnish 6.05
2 East_German 7.97
3 Finnish 8.86
4 Polish 8.98
5 South_Polish 9.13
6 Hungarian 9.69
7 Austrian 9.93
8 North_Swedish 10.68
9 Estonian 10.86
10 Ukrainian_Lviv 10.89
11 Ukrainian 10.92
12 North_German 11.56
13 Croatian 11.78
14 Russian_Smolensk 12.06
15 Swedish 12.68
16 Belorussian 12.8
17 East_Finnish 12.89
18 La_Brana-1 13.05
19 Estonian_Polish 13.38
20 Southwest_Russian 13.5

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.2% Belorussian + 43.8% West_Scottish @ 1.8
2 52.1% Belorussian + 47.9% Danish @ 1.87
3 55.4% Belorussian + 44.6% Irish @ 1.88
4 58.1% North_German + 41.9% Lithuanian @ 1.98
5 52.6% North_German + 47.4% Belorussian @ 1.98
6 53% Belorussian + 47% North_Dutch @ 2.02
7 59.2% Belorussian + 40.8% Orcadian @ 2.19
8 53.5% Danish + 46.5% Lithuanian @ 2.42
9 50.6% Lithuanian + 49.4% West_Scottish @ 2.44
10 56.2% Belorussian + 43.8% Southeast_English @ 2.46
11 50.2% Irish + 49.8% Lithuanian @ 2.5
12 50.5% Lithuanian + 49.5% Southeast_English @ 2.55
13 53.7% Russian_Smolensk + 46.3% Danish @ 2.57
14 54.5% Russian_Smolensk + 45.5% North_Dutch @ 2.58
15 53.8% North_German + 46.2% Estonian_Polish @ 2.58
16 51.8% Estonian_Polish + 48.2% North_Dutch @ 2.62
17 50.9% Estonian_Polish + 49.1% Danish @ 2.65
18 57.8% Russian_Smolensk + 42.2% West_Scottish @ 2.66
19 54.1% Southwest_Russian + 45.9% Irish @ 2.73
20 55.1% Estonian_Polish + 44.9% West_Scottish @ 2.73

Still very Slavic-shifted even though his father is from area which was never settled by Slavs.

But his mother is from Vorpommern (Uecker-Randow is located close to the Oder River).

I'm sure that his mother's results would be more Slavic-shifted.

Curious.

[Peterski]

Curious.

Another German, this one is less Slavic despite being from further east (but who knows where did his remote ancestors come from):

Ancestors from Wieleń (Filehne), Szadzko (Saatzig), Wałcz (Deutsch Krone), Choszczno (Arnswalde), Złotów (Flatow) & Wyrzysk (Wirsitz):

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 31.15
2 Atlantic 23.27
3 Baltic 21
4 Eastern_Euro 13.98
5 West_Med 3.97
6 West_Asian 3.64
7 Red_Sea 1.36
8 South_Asian 1.3
9 Northeast_African 0.22
10 Southeast_Asian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Finnish 6.33
2 North_Swedish 7.79
3 East_German 8.04
4 North_German 9.07
5 Swedish 9.15
6 Finnish 9.37
7 Norwegian 10.65
8 Danish 10.93
9 North_Dutch 11.18
10 Hungarian 11.36
11 South_Polish 12.11
12 Austrian 12.17
13 Polish 12.19
14 West_Norwegian 12.96
15 Estonian 13
16 Irish 13
17 South_Dutch 13.21
18 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.35
19 West_Scottish 13.41
20 Ukrainian 13.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.4% Orcadian + 44.6% Lithuanian @ 1.99
2 63% North_Dutch + 37% Lithuanian @ 2.03
3 63.6% Danish + 36.4% Lithuanian @ 2.14
4 58.6% West_Scottish + 41.4% Lithuanian @ 2.3
5 59.3% North_German + 40.7% Estonian @ 2.37
6 59.4% North_Dutch + 40.6% Belorussian @ 2.41
7 51.5% Orcadian + 48.5% Belorussian @ 2.59
8 50% Irish + 50% Estonian @ 2.61
9 59.4% Irish + 40.6% Lithuanian @ 2.65
10 60.2% North_Dutch + 39.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.73
11 50.8% Estonian + 49.2% West_Scottish @ 2.8
12 54% North_Dutch + 46% Estonian @ 2.81
13 63.6% Swedish + 36.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.85
14 60.1% Danish + 39.9% Belorussian @ 2.87
15 68.4% North_German + 31.6% Lithuanian @ 2.88
16 54.6% West_Norwegian + 45.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.89
17 54.6% Danish + 45.4% Estonian @ 2.94
18 52.3% North_Dutch + 47.7% Polish @ 3.02
19 54.8% West_Scottish + 45.2% Belorussian @ 3.04
20 58.5% North_Dutch + 41.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.07

And 4-Admix Oracle:

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Estonian +50% Irish @ 2.715479

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Estonian +25% Irish +25% North_German @ 2.696559

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Estonian + Lithuanian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.454919
2 Estonian + Lithuanian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.457438
3 Estonian + Irish + Lithuanian + Orcadian @ 2.467415
4 Belorussian + Estonian + Irish + Orcadian @ 2.500087
5 Belorussian + Estonian + North_Dutch + Orcadian @ 2.517226
6 Belorussian + Estonian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.540323
7 Lithuanian + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.555444
8 Lithuanian + North_German + North_German + North_Swedish @ 2.562989
9 Estonian + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Russian_Smolensk @ 2.590895
10 Belorussian + Estonian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.613387
11 Lithuanian + North_Dutch + North_German + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.643928
12 Estonian + Irish + North_Dutch + Polish @ 2.645095
13 Lithuanian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Polish @ 2.649951
14 Irish + Lithuanian + Southwest_Finnish + Swedish @ 2.670667
15 Estonian + North_Dutch + Polish + West_Scottish @ 2.677562
16 Danish + Lithuanian + North_Dutch + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.682857
17 Irish + Lithuanian + North_Dutch + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.683003
18 Estonian + Irish + Russian_Smolensk + West_Norwegian @ 2.685493
19 Belorussian + Lithuanian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.692138
20 Estonian + Estonian + Irish + North_German @ 2.696559

[Peterski]

A German from Neustettin (Szczecinek) in Pomerania, I will just post the mixed mode (Slavic + Scandinavian):

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50.8% Ukrainian + 49.2% North_Swedish @ 3.68
2 52.9% Norwegian + 47.1% Lithuanian @ 3.78
3 51.2% Lithuanian + 48.8% West_Norwegian @ 3.86
4 62.7% North_Swedish + 37.3% Lithuanian @ 3.87
5 61.8% Estonian + 38.2% Norwegian @ 3.9
6 57.9% Ukrainian + 42.1% Swedish @ 3.95
7 64.7% Ukrainian + 35.3% West_Norwegian @ 3.95
(...)

A German from Stolp (Słupsk) in Pomerania, also Slavic + Germanic Scandinavian results in Mixed Mode Oracle:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 44.3% West_Norwegian @ 2.6
2 51.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 48.4% Norwegian @ 2.67
3 51.2% Swedish + 48.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.68
4 55.7% South_Polish + 44.3% North_Swedish @ 2.75
5 56.4% Southwest_Russian + 43.6% West_Norwegian @ 2.76
6 50.5% Swedish + 49.5% Southwest_Russian @ 2.82
7 52.3% Southwest_Russian + 47.7% Norwegian @ 2.82
8 67.9% South_Polish + 32.1% West_Norwegian @ 2.88
9 59.8% Ukrainian + 40.2% Swedish @ 2.88
10 66.3% Ukrainian + 33.7% West_Norwegian @ 2.89
11 61.6% South_Polish + 38.4% Swedish @ 2.92
12 62.6% Ukrainian + 37.4% Norwegian @ 2.98
13 64.3% South_Polish + 35.7% Norwegian @ 2.98
14 53.9% Ukrainian + 46.1% North_Swedish @ 2.99
15 60% Polish + 40% Swedish @ 3.01
16 66.5% Polish + 33.5% West_Norwegian @ 3.06
17 62.7% Polish + 37.3% Norwegian @ 3.09
18 53.1% Ukrainian_Lviv + 46.9% North_Swedish @ 3.16
19 51.4% Swedish + 48.6% Estonian_Polish @ 3.28
20 54.1% Polish + 45.9% North_Swedish @ 3.29

Now Single Population Sharing (plots in the middle between Poles and East Germans):

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_Finnish 6.55
2 Finnish 7.37
3 East_German 8.03
4 South_Polish 8.15
5 Polish 8.68
6 Ukrainian 8.7
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.97

[Peterski]

North Swedes and North Norwegians are mixed with Finns & Saami, which gives them eastern genetics.

That's why I'm not highlighting these mixed mode results which have North Swedes / North Norwegians.

[Leto]

As for "pure Germans" - ironically the most pure Germans are not Germans, but Dutch people.
Northern and Northwestern Germany too.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/15/88/6c/15886cab62f5d7c465c2c4f0fab4dbe3--aryan-race-sabotage.jpg

[Peterski]

What is interesting that these Germans from Pomerania are modeled in mixed mode as a mix of Slavs and Scandos, rather than Slavs and Germans. There was some Scandinavian presence in Pomerania already before the Ostsiedlung. So the impact of Ostsiedlung could be small in this area. But probably in fact they are a mix of Slavs, Northern Germans (who are genetically similar to Scandinavians) and some Scandinavians.

[Peterski]

Also we don't really know how purely Slavic were Pomeranian and Polabian Slavs.

They surely assimilated some remnants of Ancient Germanic tribes from that area.

So already in Early Middle Ages they could be "Ukrainian + Norwegian" genetically...

[Peterski]

A German from Brandenburg (Bardenitz + Treuenbrietzen), half Slavic:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.8% South_Dutch + 44.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.87
2 55.9% South_Dutch + 44.1% Southwest_Russian @ 3.15
3 51% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 49% Southeast_English @ 3.41
4 51.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 48.8% Southwest_English @ 3.42
5 58.5% North_German + 41.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.55
6 54.9% Croatian + 45.1% North_German @ 3.55

But this is already a typical Elbe-Oder German, based on the Single mode:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 4.84
2 Austrian 6.14

[Karol Klačansky]

Ethnic hungarian from Nitra region in slovakia

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 36.12
2 North_Atlantic 29.84
3 West_Med 12.54
4 East_Med 11.63
5 West_Asian 5.60
6 Red_Sea 2.04
7 Amerindian 1.27


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Croatian @ 4.723251
2 Hungarian @ 5.694605
3 Moldavian @ 7.953143
4 South_Polish @ 8.544941
5 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 9.175375
6 Ukrainian @ 10.087198
7 East_German @ 10.296336
8 Austrian @ 10.644863
9 Serbian @ 11.328342
10 Polish @ 12.501687
11 Southwest_Russian @ 13.897801
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 14.644625
13 Russian_Smolensk @ 15.255328
14 Estonian_Polish @ 15.603484
15 Belorussian @ 15.849961
16 Romanian @ 16.119530
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 17.400803
18 Kargopol_Russian @ 18.706844
19 Bulgarian @ 18.780785
20 North_Swedish @ 19.130920

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Polish +50% Serbian @ 3.101553


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +25% Hungarian +25% Tuscan @ 1.680523

k15
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 22.64
2 North_Sea 19.40
3 Atlantic 19.28
4 Eastern_Euro 16.20
5 East_Med 9.15
6 West_Med 7.98
7 West_Asian 3.05
8 Red_Sea 1.72


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Croatian @ 5.683769
2 Austrian @ 7.703513
3 Hungarian @ 7.764766
4 South_Polish @ 8.979074
5 Moldavian @ 9.067325
6 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 10.013199
7 Ukrainian @ 10.328948
8 Polish @ 10.738267
9 Serbian @ 11.207724
10 East_German @ 11.802659
11 Russian_Smolensk @ 11.885510
12 Southwest_Russian @ 13.260871
13 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 13.376418
14 Belorussian @ 13.884837
15 Estonian_Polish @ 14.159428
16 Romanian @ 14.838745
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.079021
18 Finnish @ 15.916695
19 Estonian @ 16.350742
20 East_Finnish @ 16.658247

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +50% Serbian @ 4.007403


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +25% Southwest_Finnish +25% West_Sicilian @ 2.511801


Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Belorussian + Belorussian + Southwest_Finnish + West_Sicilian @ 2.511801

K36
Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 0.87
Basque 2.71
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.52
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.74
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 19.10
East_Med 6.71
Eastern_Euro 14.57
Fennoscandian 5.83
French 4.05
Iberian 6.29
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 8.61
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 6.91
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 9.31
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.59
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 0.17


Eurogenes EU PCA position (svk.hun)
https://image.ibb.co/jEnpHw/svk_hun.png (https://ibb.co/mQxBVG)

[Token]

A German from Neustettin (Szczecinek) in Pomerania, I will just post the mixed mode (Slavic + Scandinavian):
...


What you are trying to prove with all this? That East Germans are germanized Poles or that Poles are slavicized Germans?

[Karol Klačansky]

What you are trying to prove with all this? That East Germans are germanized Poles or that Poles are slavized Germans?Obviously east germans are germanized slavs. East germans have more slavic ancestry than any slavs have germanic ancestry.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Token]

Obviously east germans are germanized slavs. East germans have more slavic ancestry than any slavs have germanic ancestry.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

East Germans did received Slavonic-like genetic input but they are still well within the Germanic cluster and are much closer to Northern and Western Germans than to Poles or any other Slavic population, so i don't know what the fuck this guy is trying to prove, Poles and others Slavs have nothing to do with East Germans besides sharing some ancient ancestry.

[Peterski]

That East Germans are germanized Poles or that Poles are slavicized Germans?

That East Germans are Germanized Poles. Poles are not Slavicized Germans (Deutsche) for sure.

[Peterski]

East Germans did received Slavonic-like genetic input but they are still well within the Germanic cluster and are much closer to Northern and Western Germans than to Poles or any other Slavic population, so i don't know what the fuck this guy is trying to prove, Poles and others Slavs have nothing to do with East Germans besides sharing some ancient ancestry.

No, some of them are closer to Poles etc. than to North Germans or West Germans.

I can post you examples of North Germans (Schleswig-Holstein and Lower Saxony).


Poles and others Slavs have nothing to do with East Germans besides sharing some ancient ancestry.

What are you talking about? It is not ancient ancestry, but Medieval and more recent.

[Token]

That East Germans are Germanized Poles. Poles are not Slavicized Germans (Deutsche) for sure.

They are not, lets stop dreaming dude, even if they are quite eastern-shifted compared to others Germans there is still a huge genetic gap between them and Poles.

[Token]

Even your beloved Eurogenes agrees with me:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/33bd9ir.jpg

[Peterski]

They are not

Some of them are full blown Germanized Poles who became German even as recently as the 19th century.

For example these are 19th century census figures for the Lutheran parish Główczyce in Pomerania:

Year (population) - Polish speakers (%), German-speakers (%):

1829 (4848) - 3297 (68%), 1551 (32%)
1850 (5122) - 1370 (27%), 3752 (73%)
1879 (5381) - 125 (2%), 5256 (98%)

Prussian authorities banned sermons in Polish and the population was Germanized in a few generations.

[Token]

Some of them are full blown Germanized Poles who became German even as recently as the 19th century.

For example these are 19th century census figures for the Lutheran parish Główczyce in Pomerania:

Year (population) - Polish speakers (%), German-speakers (%):

1829 (4848) - 3297 (68%), 1551 (32%)
1850 (5122) - 1370 (27%), 3752 (73%)
1879 (5381) - 125 (2%), 5256 (98%)

Prussian authorities banned sermons in Polish and the population was Germanized in a few generations.

Now they are genetically, culturally, linguistically and mindset-wise Germans and full-blown Germanic, Poles are far from Germans, from east to west, and even the results that you posted contradicts your claim.

[Peterski]

Now they are genetically, culturally, linguistically and mindset-wise Germans and full-blown Germanic, Poles are far from Germans, from east to west, and even the results that you posted contradicts your claim.

Wrong. Germans who settled in Poland did not settle in empty lands but among Poles.

And they Germanized Poles in some areas, while in other areas they became Polonized.

[Token]

Wrong. Germans who settled in Poland did not settle in empty lands but among Poles.

And they Germanized Poles in some areas, while in other areas they became Polonized.

I'm talking about Germans, not Poles. East Germans are genetically Germans and i already proved that to you more than one time, every plot maps shows that, so what is your point?

[Leto]

Now they are genetically, culturally, linguistically and mindset-wise Germans and full-blown Germanic, Poles are far from Germans, from east to west, and even the results that you posted contradicts your claim.
You sound a bit anti-Polish, don't you?

[Leto]

I'm talking about Germans, not Poles. East Germans are genetically Germans and i already proved that to you more than one time, every plot maps shows that, so what is your point?
They are genetically more like Czechs and Austrians.

[Peterski]

Of course some areas are more Slavic and some more German. For example Rügen is mostly Slavic.

If you read German, you can read for example Jan M. Piskorski, "Slawen und Deutsche in Pommern in Mittelalter":

https://books.google.pl/books?id=J3ijrzM5kRgC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false

Or other publications:

http://s31.postimg.org/kyugin5aj/Zusammenfassung.png

I have his book "The Rural Colonization of Western Pomerania in the 13th Century and at the Beginning of the 14th Century..." (in Polish).

It is about Mecklenburg, Vorpommern, and Polish Pomerania and Pomerelia.

As for the island of Rügen - the vast majority of settlements on Rügen have preserved their Slavic names until today, of which many - just like in Lusatia - have patronymic character. Also settlement layouts in Rügen remind these in Lusatia and are relics of the Slavic era. Another commonality between Rügen and Lusatia is that the German Ostsiedlung sensu stricto affected both of these areas only to a very small degree.

In both areas native class of Slavic knights - called kniażyce in Rügen and witezie as well as żupani in Lusatia (pankowie in Pomerania) - remained dominant and were not replaced by immigrant German knights. Only during the 1270s and 1280s a small number of German knights settled in Rügen, and the oldest German settlements in that island - very few in number - date back to the early 1300s. The list of all rural settlements on the island from 1314 includes 217 villages, of which 216 governed themselves by Slavic customs and laws. The only exception was a village called Slawkestorpe - which is a name of partially Slavic and partially German origin. All other 216 villages in 1314 AD had fully Slavic names.

O. Kossmann estimated the population of Rügen in the 14th century as around 25,000 people - and the island was densely inhabited. The Ostsiedlung in Rügen was all about the adoption of German laws and customs by local Slavic inhabitants, with little to no immigration of West German settlers. A similar pattern could be observed in Usedom and Wolin. Just like in Rügen, in Usedom and Wolin nearly all villages, including newly founded ones, retained their Slavic character. Native Slavic aristocracy remained in power in Usedom, just like it did in Rügen.

Settlements owned by the monastery in Kolbatz (West Pomerania) started to introduce German laws in Slavic-inhabited settlements already in 1247 AD. Newly founded settlements were also being colonized primarily by local Slavic population, despite being governed by German laws.

In Rügen native Slavic customs existed for a long time, but German customs eventually prevailed. "To be called a Wend..." - wrote Albert Krantz in year 1580 - "...is the greatest disgrace." Therefore people in Mecklenburg and West Pomerania tried to hide their Slavic ancestry, as long as they could speak German. Often they were forced to learn German due to bans on the usage of Slavic language. For example in year 1516 the city council of Köslin banned the usage of Slavic in trade transactions on the main square.

Similar Anti-Slavic opinions were expressed by Thomas Kantzow (himself of Slavic ancestry) and numerous Brandenburgian writers. Answers to questions about reasons, timing and course of Germanization have to be looked for also in other types of sources, not just written sources. Onomastics is considered important. A name of a settlement itself, however, is not yet an absolute proof of ethnic origins of its inhabitants. As K. Tymieniecki observed, settlements could have German names due to several different reasons, such as: 1) German origin of the majority of inhabitants, 2) German origin of only their founders but not of their inhabitants, 3) influence of German administration (clerks).

In Vorpommern in 1289 sources mentioned a settlement called Blomenberch Teutonicalis and another nearby settlement called Blomenberch Slavicalis. In Mecklenburg a document from 1229/1230 mentioned - among others - Slavicum Nienthorp and Slavicum Hindenberge. It seems that all of those were Slavic-inhabited settlements with their names translated to German by clerks who wrote those documents.

On the other hand, we must remember that also not every single settlement with a Slavic name was inhabited mostly by Slavs. One example is Wiejkowo (or Weykow Teutonicum), which - despite having a Slavic name - was founded and inhabited mostly by Germans, but near a Slavic-inhabited settlement (called Weykow Slauicum).

With time, Slavic peasants started to migrate in large numbers to German settlements, but that process usually led to their rapid cultural Germanization. In year 1327 in Stolzenhagen there lived Hinricus Slavus, Nicolaus Slavus and Hermannus Slavus. They had typically German names, so if not their nicknames, we would not be able to distinguish them from the remaining 14 peasants living in that village. Unfortunately we cannot tell, if Hermann, Heinrich and Niicolaus still identified as Slavs, or were their nicknames only the sign that their neighbours still remembered about their Slavic origin.

Villages on Rügen, however, were inhabited almost exclusively by people with Slavic names, such as Sulimar, Domamar, Dobromysl, Cieszmar, Chociemar, Radzimar, Staniemar, etc. Documents also mention people such as Wawrzyniec Całykniaź (Laurencius Caliknese), Piotr Kopacz (Copatz), Grubicz, Twargiel, Kołczak, Dubicz (Dubbez), Łukowicz, Żuk, etc.

All of this confirms what both German and Polish researchers concluded, namely that in the Ostsiedlung of Rügen ethnically German element played a negligible role.

A similar situation existed in Lusatia. But Sorbs of Lusatia were able to preserve their Slavic language until today, whereas Rügen became linguistically Germanized.

The last of Slavic dukes of Rügen - WIslaw III (1302-1325) - made German the official language of administration and of religious institutions on the island.

Another factor which contributed to faster Germanization was lack of discrimination of Slavic population on Rügen. In fact according to Thomas Kantzow, in the 1500s Rügen was one of the most well-off areas in the whole of Western Pomerania. Slavic peasants on Rügen were free (not serfs), rich, and enjoyed numerous rights and privileges. They often intermarried with local nobility (which was also mostly of Slavic origin).

In Lusatia the process of Germanization of Sorbs was slowed down probably also due to the fact that it belonged to the Czech Kingdom for a long time.

In areas were ethnically Slavic population was heavily discriminated and marginalized - such as several parts of Brandenburg - cultural Germanization was much slower than in Rügen. Many poor rural areas of Brandenburg were still Slavic-speaking even in the 1600s. Those were ethnic ghettos with Slavic population trapped inside them and deprived of any hopes for social mobility. That Apartheid prevented assimilation.

A similar situation was in East Prussia. According to Reinhard Wenskus, Prussian peasants who managed to gain rights and privileges equal to those of German peasants, were quickly becoming Germanized. But those Prussians which had less rights and privileges, continued to speak Old Prussian and adhere to Prussian customs. Only the worsening of social status of German peasants and simultaneous improvement of economic situation of Prussian peasants - which started in the 1400s and continued in the 1500s and 1600s - led to final Germanization and extinction of the Old Prussian language.

[Peterski]

If we go by placenames, 79.21% of toponyms on Rügen are of Slavic origin, and 20.79% are of Germanic origin. In various parts of the islands of Rügen and Usedom, % of Slavic toponyms ranges from 75% to 88% of the total.

In total there are 538 settlements on the island of Rügen:

http://kreis-ruegen.de

Check the Landgemeinden section for settlement names.

[Karol Klačansky]

East Germans did received Slavonic-like genetic input but they are still well within the Germanic cluster and are much closer to Northern and Western Germans than to Poles or any other Slavic population, so i don't know what the fuck this guy is trying to prove, Poles and others Slavs have nothing to do with East Germans besides sharing some ancient ancestry.Germanic genetic cluster? Thats the loosest cluster in central europe then. Eastern germans are closer to czechs than they are to west germans. Red dots on pca plot are czech https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/92831b28a3936e922bccc1e7261df057.jpg

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

Czechs plot between Austrians and West Ukrainians (Boryslav, Zboriv, Zakarpattia), Poles plot between Germans and Belarusians:

Red dots = Czechs, green dots = Poles, blue dots = Germans; one black dot is Austrian average (except for Tyrol / West Austria):

https://i.imgur.com/MWaAjAL.png

https://i.imgur.com/MWaAjAL.png

[Peterski]

Eastern germans are closer to czechs than they are to west germans.

Eastern Germans are only close to Czechs on PCA graphs which are poorly designed and unable to distinguish SW Euro from NW Euro admixtures. Czechs are more southern than East Germans and they are closer to Austrians than to East Germans proper (former DDR area).

In my PCA based on K36 Czechs are located between Austrians and West Ukrainians, and to the south-east of East Germans.

Which is in agreement with geography. Check this biplot showing which admixture is pulling samples in which direction:

https://i.imgur.com/FiNXTXq.png

https://i.imgur.com/FiNXTXq.png

Czechs have high SW Euro admixtures (Iberian, Italian) but lower NW Euro (North Sea, North Atlantic) and Fennoscandian:

https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png

https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png

[Token]

You sound a bit anti-Polish, don't you?

So saying that Poles aren't Germans is being anti-Polish?

[Token]

They are genetically more like Czechs and Austrians.

No, they aren't, and don't lump Czech and Austrians together, one is Germanic and the other is Slavic and, like Litvin pointed, Czech plots between Austrians and West Ukrainians.

[Peterski]

Nope, just like saying that White Brazilians are not Whites because they have ca. 5% SSA and ca. 5% Amerindian is not Anti-Brazilian.

[Token]

Nope, just like saying that White Brazilians are not Whites because they have ca. 5% SSA and ca. 5% Amerindian is not Anti-Brazilian.

Are you butthurt because i'm saying that you have nothing to do with Germans? Most Brazilians do score SSA and Amerindians but you seem to forget that, specially in the south, there are people of very recent immigrant stock who live in isolated communities called 'colônias'. Anyway, these people are just a minority, yes.

[Peterski]

Are you butthurt because i'm saying that you have nothing to do with Germans? Most Brazilians do score SSA and Amerindians but you seem to forget that, specially in the south, there are people of very recent immigrant stock who live in isolated communities called 'colônias'. Anyway, these people are just a minority, yes.

I have more to do with Germans than you have with Europeans for sure. You are Brazilian. I don't understand Americans, Canadians or Latin Americans joining a European forum ??? Even though you have European genes, your ancestors were mentally incompatible with other Europeans, which is why they emigrated. So why don't you start a White Brazilian forum instead of joining a European forum?

Puerto Rican bees are descended from African bees, but behaviorally are different (just like Whites in the New World are behaviorally, mentally and culturally different than present-day Europeans): https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228419-Recent-Selection-For-Gentleness-In-Puerto-Rican-quot-Killer-Bees-quot

[Stears]

Are you butthurt because i'm saying that you have nothing to do with Germans? Most Brazilians do score SSA and Amerindians but you seem to forget that, specially in the south, there are people of very recent immigrant stock who live in isolated communities called 'colônias'. Anyway, these people are just a minority, yes.

I think Litvin is partly German origin from western Poland, but his posts are often anti-German.

[Token]

I have more to do with Germans than you have with Europeans for sure. You are Brazilian.

I don't understand Americans, Canadians or Latin Americans joining a European forum ??? Even though you have European genes, your ancestors were mentally incompatible with other Europeans, which is why they emigrated. So why don't you start a White Brazilian forum instead of joining a European forum?

Oh, so you are now becoming emotional, how cute. Tell me, what this has to do with the topic subject? We are talking about Poles and Germans and suddenly you start saying that Brazilians are mixed and blablabla. You don't need to be European to talk about genetics, even if i was a mulatto i would still be correct and you wrong. And the fact that you became butthurt just because i'm denying your closeness to Germans just proves how you have a weird hidden agenda, as everyone who read idiots like Davidski.

[Peterski]

as everyone who read idiots like Davidski.

Maybe he is not always objective but still the best of all these genetic bloggers. And which genetic blog do you read? Dienekes?

[Token]

I think Litvin is partly German origin from western Poland, but his posts are often anti-German.

He can't decide what he wants, there are posts where he try his best to associate Poles with Germans and Western countries and one hour later he start bashing them, i really don't know what goes on in the mind of this guy.

[Token]

Maybe he is not always objective but still the best of all these genetic bloggers. And which genetic blog do you read? Dienekes?

No one, i read peer-reviewed studies done by professional geneticists with credibility, you don't need to be specialist to notice how inaccurate and biased are these genetic bloggers and sites like Eupedia.

[Peterski]

And the fact that you became butthurt just because i'm denying your closeness to Germans

You are just stirring up ethnic conflicts and denying 1000 years of common Polish-German history as neighbours. From Brazil. If you were German instead of Brazilian then I would actually respect your opinions about issues involving Polish-German relations. I'm a Polish patriot first of all and I don't feel super close to any of our neighbours, but being good neighbours is about finding some commonalities instead of engaging in Balkan type of ethnic shitstorms. You clearly don't understand history of this part of Europe and especially the lessons of history.

[Peterski]

I think Litvin is partly German origin from western Poland, but his posts are often anti-German.

I have some German from my mom's side. Lots of people from my region have some German ancestry but we learned to reject this part of our heritage, just like many Germans rejected their Polish or Slavic roots. But you have to learn to accept every part of your ancestry.

It doesn't make me any less Polish.

People need to understand the history of my region first to know why nobody wants to acknowledge having German ancestry here.

We are the oldest part of Poland

[Token]

You are just stirring up ethnic conflicts and denying 1000 years of Polish-German history as neighbours. From Brazil. If you were German instead of Brazilian then I would actually respect your opinions about issues involving Polish-German relations. I'm a Polish patriot first of all and I don't feel super close to any of our neighbours, but being good neighbours is about finding some commonalities instead of engaging in Balkan type of ethnic shitstorms. You clearly don't understand history of this part of Europe and especially the lessons of history.

Yes, i'm Brazilian, but your ignorant Eastern European mind can't understand that i'm +70% German and lived my entire life in a small rural town with a German name (Westfália, from Westphalia) founded by Germans, where people speak a German dialect and basically everyone is predominantly or fully German genetically. Also, my mother's parents are all ethnic Germans and half of the family of my father came directly from Lower Franconia, with the other half being also composed by recent immigrants. Do you really think that you have more right in talking about Germans than me? Anyway, this doesn't matters because, like i said, even if i was a mulatto or a African, i am just saying the truth, finding commonalities can be healthy but don't search it where it don't exists, and the most important, put your politics and emotion away from science.

[Peterski]

Yes, i'm Brazilian, but your ignorant Eastern European

No. You are ignorant about history when you say that I'm close to Russians even though none of my ancestors ever lived in Russia.

On the other hand, 100% of my ancestors lived in Germany as of year 1914.

[Token]

No. You are ignorant about history when you say that I'm close to Russians even though none of my ancestors ever lived in Russia.

On the other hand, 100% of my ancestors lived in Germany as of year 1914.

Dude, where i said that you are close to Russians? You are so desperate to move away from Russians and closer to Germans that you are becoming paranoid, seriously.

Anyway, you are still genetically Polish so it doesn't matters if your ancestors lived in Germany in the past, don't come with this stupid Rethel-like logic.

[Peterski]

Dude, where i said that you are close to Russians? You are so desperate to move away from Russians and closer to Germans that you are becoming paranoid, seriously.

Anyway, you are still genetically Polish so it doesn't matters if your ancestors lived in Germany in the past, don't come with this stupid Rethel-like logic.

Stop talking crap. I live in the same land as my ancestors for hundreds of years and it is unfortunate to be located between Germany and Russia.

You don't understand Polish history, we don't like neither Commies nor Nazis (I noticed that in the West people who don't like both are rare, if someone is Anti-Nazi they are usually Pro-Commie and vice versa, in Poland everyone is against both).

We had as much problems caused by Russians as by Germans, etc. So we don't love Russians and Germans, but we have to live in peace with them.

[Karol Klačansky]

He can't decide what he wants, there are posts where he try his best to associate Poles with Germans and Western countries and one hour later he start bashing them, i really don't know what goes on in the mind of this guy.

we colonials in the americas sometimes have a mindset to be even more defensive and patriotic of our heritage than people who actually grew up there. You obviously feel like poles are claiming east germans as their own and you as an ethnic brazilian german are sensitive to this. East germans have been dealing and mingling with slavic people for over a thousand years. They were even part of the ostblock compared to other german. Why do you feel the need to deny their uniqueness . Yes they are germans culturally but ethnically many of them are about half slavic. There is no need to deny this.

[Token]

Stop talking crap. I live in the same land as my ancestors for hundreds of years and it is unfortunate to be located between Germany and Russia.

You don't understand Polish history, we don't like neither Commies nor Nazis (I noticed that in the West people who don't like both are rare, if someone is Anti-Nazi they are usually Pro-Commie and vice versa, in Poland everyone is against both).

We had as much problems caused by Russians as by Germans, etc. So we don't love Russians and Germans, but we have to live in peace with them.

Dude, i'm done with this discussion, even a child can now perceive that you use genetics to satiate your personal and political interests, there is nothing more anti-scientific than this.

[Peterski]

I don't lie about my ethnicity while Token claims being Celto-Germanic and claims being White, despite surely having a lot of Mediterranean genes (from his NW Iberian and North Italian ancestors) as well as possibly SSA and Amerindian admixtures.

[Peterski]

Dude, i'm done with this discussion, even a child can now perceive that you use genetics to satiate your personal and political interests, there is nothing more anti-scientific than this.

Nope. You are using genetics to satiate your political interests - namely South Brazilian separatism.

Also stop claiming being Celto-Germanic if you are more than just this. Embrace all of your heritage.

Even NW Iberians and North Italians are not fully Celtic. You have lots of Latin and Mediterranean DNA.

[Dick]

From which regions of the HRE did Germans who settled in Medieval Hungary originally come from?

Probaly from the palatinate. For example the Franconian/luxembourgish word gromper for potato entered the south slavic language as krompir. They probably brought the vegetable with them to the region. Most were poor families that were promised to become free citizens if they stayed for 10 years, in other words they wouldn't have to pay tax. Also single men came that wouldn't inherit a lot from their father for being the second, third born etc son.

[Token]

Nope. You are using genetics to satiate your political interests - namely South Brazilian separatism.

Also stop claiming being Celto-Germanic if you are more than just this. Embrace all of your heritage.

Even NW Iberians and North Italians are not fully Celtic. You have lots of Latin and Mediterranean DNA.

Do you really think that i care about these Iron Age pseudo-ethnicites? I'm far from being a separatist, i'm actually somewhat patriot and i associate myself much more with Brazil as a whole than with my ancestry, don't project your insecurities because i lack them and nothing that you say will affect me. In the end no one cares about your ancestry or how you identify yourself outside anthroforums, wake up for the real life.

[Peterski]

you have a weird hidden agenda

No I don't. You are the one who has a werid hidden agenda when claiming that Germanization of Slavs east of the Elbe did not happen and that when Germans from Pomerania are modeled as 70% Slavic + 30% Danish, it is due to some supposed "ancient similarity" and not due to Medieval Germanization of Slavs. You are insane if you think that Germans are genetically homogeneous.

[Peterski]

My result in Eurogenes K15:

69.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 30.6% North_German @ 1.6

And German from Neustettin:

64.7% Ukrainian + 35.3% West_Norwegian @ 3.95

[Token]

No I don't. You are the one who has a werid hidden agenda when claiming that Germanization of Slavs east of the Elbe did not happen and that when Germans from Pomerania are modeled as 70% Slavic + 30% Danish, it is due to "ancient similarity" and not due to Medieval Germanization of Slavs. You are insane if you think that Germans are genetically homogeneous.

Slavs were replaced by Germans in East Germany, i showed you the Eurogenes' plot maps and East Germans are far away from Poles, comparatively closer to North Germans, and even less eastern-shifted than Austrians. I never denied that they aborbed some of them but well, Slavonic-derived ancestry is certainly not predominant and they are full-blown Germanic just like Austrians, even if they absorbed native populations as well.

[Peterski]

Slavs were replaced by Germans in East Germany

That claim is against all evidence. They were assimilated. Everything shows this and even German historians acknowledge this.

Also Y-DNA data shows the predominane of Slavic and Baltic haplogroups among East Germans from Silesia, Pomerania, Prussia.

I posted here before Y-DNA data gathered from FTDNA Projects. 100 samples from Silesia, 84 samples from East Prussia, etc.

[Peterski]

In terms of autosomal DNA, comparison of me vs. German from Pomerania:


My result in Eurogenes K15:

69.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 30.6% North_German @ 1.6

And German from Neustettin:

64.7% Ukrainian + 35.3% West_Norwegian @ 3.95

[Leto]

So saying that Poles aren't Germans is being anti-Polish?
No.

No, they aren't, and don't lump Czech and Austrians together, one is Germanic and the other is Slavic and, like Litvin pointed, Czech plots between Austrians and West Ukrainians.
Czechs and Austrians have lived next to each other for centuries. Many Austrians have Czech roots. I'm not saying they are literally the same, but a Czech would fit in Austria just perfectly.

[Peterski]

Here is a map with my Silesian and East Prussian Y-DNA samples (locations based on birthplaces of oldest known ancestors). There are lots of people with clearly German surnames and yet typically Slavic or Baltic subclades of R1a or N1c haplogroups:

https://s31.postimg.org/48yqwf7uj/Silesia_East_Prussia.png

[Peterski]

(...)

Here is a comparison of % of haplogroup R1a in various populations. You will see that there are large regional differences - and that East Germans have much more of R1a than West Germans. Also South-East Germans have more than North-East Germans:

I added data on R1a among some West Germanic, Celtic, Slavic and Baltic populations for comparison.

Samples for Lithuanians and Latvians refer to ethnic groups - minorities like Poles in Lithuania or Russians in Latvia aren't included.

Westgermanen-Kelten:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang / sample size)

Flandern (heutzutage) ---------------------------- 4,3% (695)
Brabant (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,0% (große)
Wallonien (heutzutage) -------------------------- 4,0% (74)
England (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 4,0% (1830)
England (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 4,5% (>5000)
Irland (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 2,5% (>5000)
Wales (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 1,0% (411)

Balten-Nordwestslawen:

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Kaschuben (einheimische) ------------------------ 63,4% (268)
Kleinpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 63,2% (212)
Kurpie (einheimische) ----------------------------- 61,4% (158)
Kociewie (einheimische) -------------------------- 56,3% (158)
Großpolen (heutzutage) -------------------------- 54,8% (343)
Litauer (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 42,2% (301)
Letten (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 40,0% (große)

Deutschland (regional):

Population (Zeit) ----------- % Haplogruppe R1a (Stichprobenumfang)

Sorben (einheimische) ---------------------------- 65,0% (123)
Oberschlesien (vor 1914) ------------------------- 63,0% (48)
Brandenburg an der Havel (vor 1914) ---------- 50,0% (14)
Niederschlesien (vor 1914) ----------------------- 48,0% (48)
Ostpreußen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 45,2% (84)
Graz, Österreich (heutzutage) -------------------- 42,9% (große)
Dessau–Roßlau (vor 1914) ------------------------ 42,9% (7)
Chemnitz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 40,0% (10)
Dresden (heutzutage) ----------------------------- 32,6% (große)
Rostock (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 32,4% (96)
Halle an der Saale (heutzutage)* --------------- 30,3% (234)
Leipzig (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 27,1% (144)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (vor 1914) ---------- 25,8% (31)
Berlin (heutzutage) ------------------------------- 23,7% (232)
Sachsen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 22,0% (41)
Bern (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 21,4% (???)
Magdeburg (heutzutage) ------------------------- 21,0% (100)
Greifswald (heutzutage) ------------------------- 19,2% (104)
Sachsen-Anhalt (vor 1914) ---------------------- 17,7% (34)
Kassel (vor 1914) --------------------------------- 17,7% (17)
Hamburg (heutzutage) -------------------------- 16,8% (161)
Oberpfalz (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 16,7% (6)
Nord Osttirol -------------------------------------- 16,0% (235)
Köln (heutzutage) -------------------------------- 15,6% (96)
Braunschweig (vor 1914) ----------------------- 14,3% (14)
München (heutzutage) ------------------------- 14,3% (112)
Thüringen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 13,2% (38)
Unterfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 11,5% (26)
Freiburg im Breisgau (vor 1914) ---------------- 10,8% (102)
Lüneburg (vor 1914) -----------------------------10,0% (20)
Schleswig-Holstein (vor 1914) ----------------- 10,0% (20)
Niedersachsen (vor 1914) ----------------------- 9,8% (82)
Lausanne (heutzutage) -------------------------- 9,4% (???)
Bayern (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,6% (93)
Hessen (vor 1914) -------------------------------- 8,5% (82)
Mainz (heutzutage) ------------------------------ 8,4% (95)
Weser-Ems (vor 1914) -------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Hannover (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 8,3% (24)
Münster (heutzutage) -------------------------- 7,8% (102)
[Münster (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 9,1% (11)]
Rheinhessen-Pfalz (vor 1914) ------------------ 7,8% (64)
Gießen (vor 1914) ------------------------------- 7,1% (14)
Karlsruhe (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 6,7% (60)
Düsseldorf (vor 1914) -------------------------- 6,7% (15)
Darmstadt (vor 1914) --------------------------- 5,9% (51)
Oberfranken (vor 1914) ------------------------ 5,9% (17)
Baden-Württemberg (vor 1914) -------------- 5,7% (176)
Tübingen (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 5,3% (19)
Rheinland-Pfalz (vor 1914) -------------------- 5,2% (116)
Stuttgart (vor 1914) ---------------------------- 4,4% (68)
Mulheim (heutzutage) -------------------------- 3,4% (59)
Nordrhein-Westfalen (vor 1914) -------------- 2,8% (72)
Koblenz (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 2,7% (37)
Oberbayern (vor 1914) ------------------------- 0,0% (20)
Arnsberg (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (17)
Saarland (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (16)
Trier (vor 1914) ---------------------------------- 0,0% (15)
Detmold (vor 1914) ----------------------------- 0,0% (14)
Schwaben (vor 1914) --------------------------- 0,0% (11)
Mittelfranken (vor 1914) ----------------------- 0,0% (10)
Bremen (vor 1914) ------------------------------ 0,0% (5)

* Data for inhabitants of Haale an der Saale includes only 234 men with German and German-Slavic surnames. The total sample was 419 - including 234 men with German or mixed German-Slavic and 185 men with purely Slavic surnames. However, among those with Slavic surnames there were probably also some recent immigrants, not only descendants of local Wends. Having German surname does not mean that ancestor wasn't Slavic in the Middle Ages - it just means that he became Germanized before surnames became popular. In East Germany, peasants started commonly using surnames only after Medieval times, in the Early Modern Era.

Based on that, I made a map of R1a in Germany (Mulheim not included, because I found this data after I made the map):

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

http://oi68.tinypic.com/6enpso.jpg

[Leto]

they are full-blown Germanic just like Austrians, even if they absorbed native populations as well.
Austrians are as Germanic as Northern Russians are Slavic, maybe a bit more, but not by much.

[Lucas]

Since 0:56 :)


https://youtu.be/PG9OudmF82w?t=55

[Token]

In terms of autosomal DNA, comparison of me vs. German from Pomerania:

Neustettin is Northwestern Poland, not Germany, so you have no point here. Even so, he seems to be considerably more German shifted than you.

[Leto]

i'm +70% German and lived my entire life in a small rural town with a German name (Westfália, from Westphalia) founded by Germans, where people speak a German dialect and basically everyone is predominantly or fully German genetically.
Can you speak German? I've actually studied it for years, just saying.

[Token]

Can you speak German? I've actually studied it for years, just saying.

Not German but i can speak some Hunsrückisch, a Franconian dialect spoken in Rio Grande do Sul.

[Leto]

Not German but i can speak some Hunsrückisch, a Franconian dialect spoken in Rio Grande do Sul.
That's cool. You can study High German then, it would not be difficult since you already know Portuguese and English.

[Peterski]

Neustettin is Northwestern Poland, not Germany

But Vorpommern should be just as Slavic if not more, based on the result of that German who is 1/2 from Holstein and 1/2 from Vorpommern (his Vorpommern branch had to be more Slavic than his Holstein branch, because Slavs never settled in western Holstein, they only ruled there for some time when they conquered Nordalbingia). I think that % of Slavic ancestry correlates well with % of Slavic toponyms.

And there is a very patchy pattern (some areas have lots of Slavic toponyms, others have few).

For example in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Rostock area has much more Slavic toponyms than Greifswald area.

Even the name of the city of Rostock is of Slavic origin, while Greifswald is Germanic.

[Leto]

Don't forget that after WWII Germany received like 12 million refugees from the former East Territories of the German Reich. Those people settled primarily in West Germany (BRD).

[Leto]

But Vorpommern should be just as Slavic if not more, based on the result of that German who is 1/2 from Holstein and 1/2 from Vorpommern (his Vorpommern branch had to be more Slavic than his Holstein branch, because Slavs never settled in western Holstein, they only ruled there for some time when they conquered Nordalbingia). I think that % of Slavic ancestry correlates well with % of Slavic toponyms.

And there is a very patchy pattern (some areas have lots of Slavic toponyms, others have few).

For example in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Rostock area has much more Slavic toponyms than Greifswald area.

Even the name of the city of Rostock is of Slavic origin, while Greifswald is Germanic.
Litvin, I have GEDmatch numbers of a Russian-German family from Siberia. They seem to be full Germans, not mixed.

[Token]

But Vorpommern should be just as Slavic if not more, based on the result of that German who is 1/2 from Holstein and 1/2 from Vorpommern (his Vorpommern branch had to be more Slavic than his Holstein branch, because Slavs never settled in western Holstein, they only ruled there for some time when they conquered Nordalbingia). I think that % of Slavic ancestry correlates well with % of Slavic toponyms.

And there is a very patchy pattern (some areas have lots of Slavic toponyms, others have few).

For example in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Rostock area has much more Slavic toponyms than Greifswald area.

Even the name of the city of Rostock is of Slavic origin, while Greifswald is Germanic.

Litvin, tu werst imer ferikt, ërnst.

[Peterski]

Neustettin is Northwestern Poland, not Germany, so you have no point here. Even so, he seems to be considerably more German shifted than you.

About 5% more German shifted, but his ancestors have German surnames and almost all of my ancestors have Slavic surnames.

So I would expect a bigger difference. Also Neustettin is still more to the west than my area. Genes correlate with geography too.

[Token]

About 5% more German shifted, but his ancestors have German surnames and almost all of my ancestors have Slavic surnames.

So I would expect a bigger difference. Also Neustettin is still more to the west than my area. Genes correlate with geography too.

Don't forget that West Norwegian is considerable more northwestern-shifted than North German and he is modulated as less 'Slavic' than you, also considering that it uses a Belgorod individual as a model for him. He is around 20% more Germanic-shifted than you.

[Peterski]

Litvin, I have GEDmatch numbers of a Russian-German family from Siberia. They seem to be full Germans, not mixed.

But that's not surprising because they came to Russia from North-West Germany in the late 1700s, just like Mennonites:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229839-Russlandmennoniten-K15-results

There were no Germans in Russia before 1700 AD, except maybe those around the Baltic Sea and some merchants etc.

Kabuzan has some data on ethnic groups in 18th century Russia:

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png

[Peterski]

Kabuzan 1990 (Nations of Russia in the 18th century):

https://www.sendspace.com/file/hdvt4g

[Leto]

But that's not surprising because they came to Russia from North-West Germany in the late 1700s, just like Mennonites:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229839-Russlandmennoniten-K15-results

There were no Germans in Russia before 1700 AD, except maybe those around the Baltic Sea and some merchants etc.

Kabuzan has some data on ethnic groups in 18th century Russia:

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png
That was not an official census. The first (and the last) official imperial census was conducted in 1897. Although I agree. Anyway, I thought you would be interested in the numbers.

[oszkar07]

Ethnic hungarian from Nitra region in slovakia

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 36.12
2 North_Atlantic 29.84
3 West_Med 12.54
4 East_Med 11.63
5 West_Asian 5.60
6 Red_Sea 2.04
7 Amerindian 1.27


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Croatian @ 4.723251
2 Hungarian @ 5.694605
3 Moldavian @ 7.953143
4 South_Polish @ 8.544941
5 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 9.175375
6 Ukrainian @ 10.087198
7 East_German @ 10.296336
8 Austrian @ 10.644863
9 Serbian @ 11.328342
10 Polish @ 12.501687
11 Southwest_Russian @ 13.897801
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 14.644625
13 Russian_Smolensk @ 15.255328
14 Estonian_Polish @ 15.603484
15 Belorussian @ 15.849961
16 Romanian @ 16.119530
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 17.400803
18 Kargopol_Russian @ 18.706844
19 Bulgarian @ 18.780785
20 North_Swedish @ 19.130920

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Polish +50% Serbian @ 3.101553


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +25% Hungarian +25% Tuscan @ 1.680523

k15
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 22.64
2 North_Sea 19.40
3 Atlantic 19.28
4 Eastern_Euro 16.20
5 East_Med 9.15
6 West_Med 7.98
7 West_Asian 3.05
8 Red_Sea 1.72


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Croatian @ 5.683769
2 Austrian @ 7.703513
3 Hungarian @ 7.764766
4 South_Polish @ 8.979074
5 Moldavian @ 9.067325
6 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 10.013199
7 Ukrainian @ 10.328948
8 Polish @ 10.738267
9 Serbian @ 11.207724
10 East_German @ 11.802659
11 Russian_Smolensk @ 11.885510
12 Southwest_Russian @ 13.260871
13 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 13.376418
14 Belorussian @ 13.884837
15 Estonian_Polish @ 14.159428
16 Romanian @ 14.838745
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.079021
18 Finnish @ 15.916695
19 Estonian @ 16.350742
20 East_Finnish @ 16.658247

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +50% Serbian @ 4.007403


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +25% Southwest_Finnish +25% West_Sicilian @ 2.511801


Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Belorussian + Belorussian + Southwest_Finnish + West_Sicilian @ 2.511801

K36
Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 0.87
Basque 2.71
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.52
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.74
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 19.10
East_Med 6.71
Eastern_Euro 14.57
Fennoscandian 5.83
French 4.05
Iberian 6.29
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 8.61
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 6.91
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 9.31
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.59
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 0.17


Eurogenes EU PCA position (svk.hun)
https://image.ibb.co/jEnpHw/svk_hun.png (https://ibb.co/mQxBVG)

Quite slavic

[Peterski]

Number of Germans in Russia, column III is about early or mid 1700s if I remember correctly:

https://i.imgur.com/lKIuEnl.png

[Karol Klačansky]

Can you speak German? I've actually studied it for years, just saying.Dann können wir gerne weiter auf Deutsch reden. Du kommst aus Weissrussland? Kannst du weissrussisch sprechen oder nur Russisch?

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Karol Klačansky]

No.

Czechs and Austrians have lived next to each other for centuries. Many Austrians have Czech roots. I'm not saying they are literally the same, but a Czech would fit in Austria just perfectly.Agreed, at least in vienna not tyrol or vorallberg

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[War Chef]

Hungarians are already Germans. Battle of Nedao (Germanic tribe coalition to drive out Huns once and for all) was fought in Hungary.
Hungarians descend from those people partly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nedao

[Leto]

Dann können wir gerne weiter auf Deutsch reden. Du kommst aus Weissrussland? Kannst du weissrussisch sprechen oder nur Russisch?

No, sorry, I'm more comfortable speaking English.

[Leto]

Agreed, at least in vienna not tyrol or vorallberg

Yeah, Vorarlberg is more like Swiss German. Not sure about Tyrol, South Tyrol is part of Italy.

[Karol Klačansky]

Yeah, Vorarlberg is more like Swiss German. Not sure about Tyrol, South Tyrol is part of Italy.Tyrol isnt slavic influenced at all really they are full fledged western euros. South tyrol is italian shifted but not really different from tyrolians as far as I know. The native Viennese are the ones with massive czech influence. In vienna there is a saying that every real Viennese has a bohemian grandmother. Every second native of vienna has a czech last name from what I see or maybe 1/3.

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[Rethel]

Dude, where i said that you are close to Russians? You are so desperate to move away from Russians and closer to Germans that you are becoming paranoid, seriously.

Anyway, you are still genetically Polish so it doesn't matters if your ancestors lived in Germany in the past, don't come with this stupid Rethel-like logic.

And again you proved, invoking me idk why, that you are sissy henpecked,
who does not respect his own fathers, as well as hates his own children...

Now, show, how much did you not understand :)

[blogen]

But where did Germans who settled in Hungary originate? Did they come from places like Sachsen in East Germany?

Danube valley, Mid-Rhine valley basically South-Germany and partially Sudetenaland.

[blogen]

As far as I know they are only called "Saxons", but they did not actually come from Lower Saxony.

They came from some other area, I don't remember which. But not from original Saxon lands.

Original Saxon lands were in northern parts of Lower Sxony and in western part of Holstein.

The 12-13th century German settlers, the acestors of the Transsylvanian Saxons came from the Central- and Lower Rhine valley. They were Alemannes and not Saxons. Their Saxon name came from the stadtrecht.

[Lucas]

The 12-13th century German settlers, the acestors of the Transsylvanian Saxons came from the Central- and Lower Rhine valley. They were Alemannes and not Saxons. Their Saxon name came from the stadtrecht.

Lower Rhine valley is not Alemann territory but Frankish -> Flemish / South Dutch.
Do you mean upper Rhine?

[blogen]

Lower Rhine valley is not Alemann territory but Frankish -> Flemish / South Dutch.
Do you mean upper Rhine?

Centtral-Rhine is Alemann and Frankish.

[Bobby Martnen]

Yeah, Vorarlberg is more like Swiss German. Not sure about Tyrol, South Tyrol is part of Italy.

South Tyrol is a part of Austria under Italian occupation since WWI.

[Sebbo]

Germanic genetic cluster? Thats the loosest cluster in central europe then. Eastern germans are closer to czechs than they are to west germans. Red dots on pca plot are czech https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/92831b28a3936e922bccc1e7261df057.jpg

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How did you create this PCA, how would I go about making one like that using Eurogenes K13? Thanks :)