Map of J2b2-L283

[Kelmendasi]

Most common among Albanians especially the north:

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

[Wrong]

Most common among Albanians especially the north:

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png
In Greece it is correlated with Arvanites. Interesting Arvanite J2b2 % is higher than in Tosks.

[Wrong]

Peaks in Catholic Gheg clans.

[Fustan]

In Greece it is correlated with Arvanites. Interesting Arvanite J2b2 % is higher than in Tosks.

Slav assimilation in the south.

[Wrong]

Slav assimilation in the south.
Correct.
Tosks are heavily Slav-influenced.

[Kelmendasi]

In Greece it is correlated with Arvanites. Interesting Arvanite J2b2 % is higher than in Tosks.
Arvanite J2b2 is the same as Tosk J2b2 as shown by the map.

[Kelmendasi]

I'm expecting my mothers paternal line to be J2b2-Y23094 but E-V13 is also a possibility

[Coolguy1]

Arvanite J2b2 is the same as Tosk J2b2 as shown by the map.

Have you even seen any Arvanite results? Im not sure from what data this map was made

[Kelmendasi]

Correct.
Tosks are heavily Slav-influenced.
I doubt that they are really heavily Slav influenced, true they have more than Ghegs though

[Kelmendasi]

Have you even seen any Arvanite results? Im not sure from what data this map was made
Yh, there is an Arvanite who is J2b2-Y23094 and some others who belong to the PH1751 group. The data used was an amount of scientific studies across Europe mainly

[Lavrentis]

In Greece it is correlated with Arvanites. Interesting Arvanite J2b2 % is higher than in Tosks.

I doubt that it's that high in parts of Greece that were never settled by Arvanites, such as Macedonia or Thrace. But we can see from the map that Corinth and Argolis i.e places that Arvanites settled the most, has a significat portion of it

[Danaan]

Yh, there is an Arvanite who is J2b2-Y23094 and some others who belong to the PH1751 group. The data used was an amount of scientific studies across Europe mainly

I think you (or the person who made it) were a little creative. What type of data do you have concerning J2b2-L83 in Greece?

[Kelmendasi]

I think you (or the person who made it) were a little creative. What type of data do you have concerning J2b2-L83 in Greece?
I didn't make it, some other person from our project did and it seems pretty good. I knew some people would react like this xD. The data used is from actual scientific papers of haplotypes in Europe

[Fustan]

I doubt that it's that high in parts of Greece that were never settled by Arvanites, such as Macedonia or Thrace. But we can see from the map that Corinth and Argolis i.e places that Arvanites settled the most, has a significat portion of it

The problem is that many Greeks don't even know they have Arvanite ancestry (or Vlach, for that matter).

[Danaan]

I didn't make it, some other person from our project did and it seems pretty good. I knew some people would react like this xD. The data used is from actual scientific papers of haplotypes in Europe

Well, personally I react like this to maps made by Maciamo of Eupedia too, or those made by someone called 'Passa' in Anthrogenica. They are not scientific and guesswork is involved.
One user (Rob/ Gravetto-Danubian) who is a Slav of some short makes up data too during casual discussions. I wouldn't trust any map made by him either.

[Kelmendasi]

Well, personally I react like this to maps made by Maciamo of Eupedia too, or those made by someone called 'Passa' in Anthrogenica. They are not scientific and guesswork is involved.
One user (Rob/ Gravetto-Danubian) who is a Slav of some short makes up data too during casual discussions. I wouldn't trust any map made by him either.
Thing is though that they are based on scientific papers. If you don't want to believe it because you don't like the results then that's not the fault of the guy who made this

[Krampus]

I didn't make it, some other person from our project did and it seems pretty good. I knew some people would react like this xD. The data used is from actual scientific papers of haplotypes in Europe

Ayo hol up

I just realized your J1 and not J2. How tf?

[Kelmendasi]

Ayo hol up

I just realized your J1 and not J2. How tf?
Rare nigga that's why

[Danaan]

Thing is though that they are based on scientific papers. If you don't want to believe it because you don't like the results then that's not the fault of the guy who made this

You say that they are based on scientific papers.

I say that the scientific papers do not provide enough data to create a map like this.

If the data exist I want to see them.

[Kelmendasi]

You say that they are based on scientific papers.

I say that the scientific papers do not provide enough data to create a map like it.

If the data exist I want to see them.
Will ask for the papers. What's so unbelievable about this map?

[Krampus]

Rare nigga that's why

Brah are you a terrorist or sumn

[Kelmendasi]

Brah are you a terrorist or sumn
Obviously...... Nah my clade isn't the Arab one, it's proper old trustttttttt

[Krampus]

Obviously...... Nah my clade isn't the Arab one, it's proper old trustttttttt

What’s the history behind your clade lol?

[Kelmendasi]

What’s the history behind your clade lol?
I know that I am Z2313 which is pre-Semitic but I am believed to be from a certain subclade of that although my markers are weird so it's not 100% certain what clade. According to TMRCA and shit like that it goes back to like 780BC when tested with people who are in my supposed clade which is like 2300 years more than normal and is linked to Canaanites like Phoenicians and Israelites and is pre-Roman so it arrived via Hellenic influence or some sea niggas from the Levant. What's your haplogroup?

[Krampus]

I know that I am Z2313 which is pre-Semitic but I am believed to be from a certain subclade of that although my markers are weird so it's not 100% certain what clade. According to TMRCA and shit like that it goes back to like 780BC when tested with people who are in my supposed clade which is like 2300 years more than normal and is linked to Canaanites like Phoenicians and Israelites and is pre-Roman so it arrived via Hellenic influence or some sea niggas from the Levant. What's your haplogroup?

Idk I haven’t taken it yet but I hope it’s J2b cuz J2b is the superior haplogroup. If I’m an E-V13 nigga I’ll committ seppuku.

[Kelmendasi]

Idk I haven’t taken it yet but I hope it’s J2b cuz J2b is the superior haplogroup. If I’m an E-V13 nigga I’ll committ seppuku.
What clan do you hail from? E-V13 is a beast haplogroup man

[Krampus]

What clan do you hail from? E-V13 is a beast haplogroup man

Shoshi. Shala, a tribe that shares descent with us, is R1b, so we’re probably R1b.

[Danaan]

Will ask for the papers. What's so unbelievable about this map?

The published scientific studies about Greek Y-DNA are old. I don't think they ever tested for L283. In one 9 years old study that tested for 'M241' 4.4% of his sample of Greeks from Athens belonged to 'M241' while it was 1.8% in Greek Macedonia.

And I believe he chose to paint the map based on some assumptions he made. (for example L283 as common in Epirus as in South Albania, L283 higher in regions with attested significant Arvanite presence, for example Attica and NE Peloponnese etc)

The main issue isn't if it is believable but if it is based on actual data.

[Kelmendasi]

Shoshi.
Well there is a guy tested with the surname Shoshi from the Albanian project who is J2b2-L283>PH2967>PH1751(?) but tribal legends claim that Shoshi are the brothers of the Shala and Mirdita, Shala is almost completely R1b-PF7563 and Mirdita is in majority J2b2-L283>PH2967(ancestor of PH1751) with some E-V13>CTS9230>Z38456(Unikkatil's haplo ;)) and some minority haplos like I1. You should be either R1b-PF7563 or J2b2-L283>PH2967/J2b2-L283>PH2967>PH1751

[Kelmendasi]

The published scientific studies about Greek Y-DNA are old. I don't think they ever tested for L283. In one 9 years old study that tested for 'M241' 4.4% of his sample of Greeks from Athens belonged to 'M241' while it was 1.8% in Greek Macedonia.

And I believe he chose to paint the map based on some assumptions he made. (for example L283 as common in Epirus as in South Albania, L283 higher in regions with attested significant Arvanite presence, for example Attica and NE Peloponnese etc)

The main issue isn't if it is believable but if it is based on actual data.
In Europe there is only L283 when it comes to J2b-M241 so they were all L283 most certainly

[Trojet]

In Europe there is only L283 when it comes to J2b-M241 so they were all L283 most certainly

Not most certainly, but the bolded part.

[Wrong]

Not most certainly, but the bolded part.
Hey bro. Are the 0-0.1% and 0.1-2% values in the map grade correct or a typo by the one who made it?

I assumed they would be 0-1% and 1-2% respectively. Anyway it's a great map nonetheless.

[Trojet]

The published scientific studies about Greek Y-DNA are old. I don't think they ever tested for L283. In one 9 years old study that tested for 'M241' 4.4% of his sample of Greeks from Athens belonged to 'M241' while it was 1.8% in Greek Macedonia.

And I believe he chose to paint the map based on some assumptions he made. (for example L283 as common in Epirus as in South Albania, L283 higher in regions with attested significant Arvanite presence, for example Attica and NE Peloponnese etc)

The main issue isn't if it is believable but if it is based on actual data.

I don't get all this sensitiveness regarding this haplogroup in Greece. To me the map seems about right. For example, in a scientific study this haplogroup in Euboea and Corinthia was recorded at 7.3% and 5.5% respectively.

If you don't believe me, as I posted on another forum, here is the source: http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf

"The sister clade of J2a-M410, J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"

As we know in Europe all J2b-M241 is J2b-L283, so according to this study in Euboea J2b-L283 is 7.3%, while the rest of J2b should be J2b1-M205 at 2.1%, for a total of 9.4% J2b. In Corinthia J2b-L283 is 5.5%. For comparison in the most recent study of Cyprus J2b-L283 is ~1%.

[Coolguy1]

Actually the map seems correct. Most j2b2 in Greece is probably Arvanite in origin, but I’m sure its been present in ancient times as well. Some of it probably from Dorians.

[Danaan]

I don't get all this sensitiveness regarding this haplogroup in Greece. To me the map seems about right. For example, in a scientific study this haplogroup in Euboea and Corinthia was recorded at 7.3% and 5.5% respectively.

If you don't believe me, as I posted on another forum, here is the source:

Regarding Euboea, the following is taken from here: http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/3628/1/...Paolo_tesi.pdf

"The sister clade of J2a-M410, J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"

As we know in Europe all J2b-M241 is J2b-L283, so according to this study in Euboea J2b-L283 is 7.3%, while the rest of J2b should be J2b1-M205 at 2.1%, for a total of 9.4% J2b. In Corinthia J2b-L283 is 5.5%. For comparison in the most recent study of Cyprus J2b-L283 is ~1%.

To be frank I wasn't aware of that study. Personally I don't know if all J2b-M241 is L283. I am willing to believe you since you have researched it.

But in the map some Greek regions appear to have 10-15% L283. So regions that may have around 5% appear to have up to 15%.

[Trojet]

To be frank I wasn't aware of that study. Personally I don't know if all J2b-M241 is L283. I am willing to believe you since you have researched it.

But in the map some Greek regions appear to have 10-15% L283. So regions that may have around 5% appear to have up to 15%.

If you haven't learned by now that all M241 in Europe is L283, then you obviously are not well informed regarding this haplogroup.

As far as the percentages go, it's a different story. The map is not perfect by any means, but overall the best and most detailed I have seen for this haplogroup so far

[Kouros]

Any explanation for that red corner in South-Western Romania (Or north-western Bulgaria, can't tell)? Also, from what region do Arvanites originate? Judging by those Peloponnese percentages I would be inclined to say Ghegnia... http://d2trtkcohkrm90.cloudfront.net/images/emoji/apple/ios-10/33/1818.png

[Danaan]

If you haven't learned by now that all M241 in Europe is L283, then you obviously are not well informed regarding this haplogroup.

As far as the percentages go, it's a different story. The map is not perfect by any means, but overall the best and most detailed I have seen for this haplogroup so far

Without thinking it is very important, I don't like that type of statements because even one native European who is M241 but not L283 is enough to make it technically wrong.

Concerning the map, which is more important I believe it is partly based on a number of assumptions like all similar maps. (and no special knowledge is needed to understand that) and I wrote about Athens, for example, that one 9 year old study showed 4.4% 'M241' in Athens which is less than what the map shows (10-15) and the same is true about Corinthia apparently based on the study you mentioned. Everything about Greece in that map has a chance to be wrong.

[Scholarios]

Yes, while Arvanite influence is strong in Greece, J2b is 5% or less- so I am skeptical about the map of Morea too. Maybe I am missing something. I think most Arvanites would be E1b, judging from individuals' results I have seen.

edit: saw Trojet's post, makes some sense now.

As for Danaan, just give up already. He wants proof that 99% of Greeks are NOT pure descendants of Herakles himself, and the other 1% are half.

[Skerdilaid]

Shoshi. Shala, a tribe that shares descent with us, is R1b, so we’re probably R1b.

Nigga, you Shoshi for real? We need your spit man, buy a freaking kit ASAP.

[Krampus]

Nigga, you Shoshi for real? We need your spit man, buy a freaking kit ASAP.

Sheeit I want to but never got around to doing it. Does it tell you full autosomal DNA and everything?

[Skerdilaid]

Sheeit I want to but never got around to doing it. Does it tell you full autosomal DNA and everything?

Yeah man, everything we need to know, and it only costs $90 including shipping: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=d57300f892767f91c0b1257a85953c2a



Read this why we need a Shoshi (http://www.gjenetika.com/ne-fokus-shoshi-shala-dhe-mirdita/)

[Dukagjini]

Yeah man, everything we need to know, and it only costs $90 including shipping: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=d57300f892767f91c0b1257a85953c2a



Read this why we need a Shoshi (http://www.gjenetika.com/ne-fokus-shoshi-shala-dhe-mirdita/)

Yo I think I'm gonna buy a kit just not rn. Saving for later and YSEQ Alpha beta also covers autosomal as well?

[Krampus]

Yo I think I'm gonna buy a kit just not rn. Saving for later and YSEQ Alpha beta also covers autosomal as well?

Yo are you from DUkagjin? IF so Shala or Shosh?

[Dukagjini]

Yo are you from DUkagjin? IF so Shala or Shosh?

No Dukagjini is just my name on Apricity. I am Alb from Montenegro from little place called Shestani-Kraja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skadarska_Krajina) But my ancestors are supposedly from Gruda and I also have some Kelmendi blood maybe even a lot. Lots of people from Shestani-Kraja hail from highlander tribes.

[Skerdilaid]

Yo I think I'm gonna buy a kit just not rn. Saving for later and YSEQ Alpha beta also covers autosomal as well?

Alright man, but do it already $90 is pocket change for you US Albos. No, autosomal DNA is useless anyways on these cheap commercial tests, especially for us Albanians. Unless of course you're going for a whole genome sequencing which can cost over $600.

[Dukagjini]

Alright man, but do it already $90 is pocket change for you US Albos. No, autosomal DNA is useless anyways on these cheap commercial tests, especially among us Albanians. Unless of course you're going for a whole genome sequencing which cost over $600.

90 bucks ain't that cheap lol, especially with all other expenses man, prices here are inflating like crazy. I need to repair my qifteli too I broke my string lol, and there's a dent. But I agree autosomal is probably useless.

[Krampus]

Alright man, but do it already $90 is pocket change for you US Albos. No, autosomal DNA is useless anyways on these cheap commercial tests, especially for us Albanians. Unless of course you're going for a whole genome sequencing which can cost over $600.

Just texted my Bab about it. Honestly shits crazy. All of Shala shares the same ancestry even though Bobi, Gimaj, and Nënmavriq are all said to have different origins. I always assumed the Mavriqi were Slavs because Mavro is a Serbian name plus the Albanization of ić -> iqi. Damn I really hope we get R1b-L23 like Shala, or else that would kinda shatter our folklore of our ancestors being brothers.

[Skerdilaid]

Just texted my Bab about it. Honestly shits crazy. All of Shala shares the same ancestry even though Bobi, Gimaj, and Nënmavriq are all said to have different origins. I always assumed the Mavriqi were Slavs because Mavro is a Serbian name plus the Albanization of ić -> iqi. Damn I really hope we get R1b-L23 like Shala, or else that would kinda shatter our folklore of our ancestors being brothers.

Alright, tell him to contact me if he needs assistance (I can pm you my emial or phone #). Well Gimaj have tested and are related to Pecaj, both brotherhoods are R1b-PF7563 (not L23). Mavriqi have tested too, two of them actually and both are V13 (possibly L241). Bobi haven't tested yet, but I bet they are BY611.

Mavraj is not Slavic, and iq thing is just linguistic influence from their empire era. Doesn't mean much.

[Krampus]

Alright, tell him to contact me if he needs assistance (I can pm you my emial or phone #). Well Gimaj have tested and are related to Pecaj, both brotherhoods are R1b-PF7563 (not L23). Mavriqi have tested too, two of them actually and both are V13 (possibly L241). Bobi haven't tested yet, but I bet they are BY611.

Mavraj is not Slavic, and iq thing is just linguistic influence from their empire era. Doesn't mean much.

Yeah but when we settled the area we described the Mavriqi as being short, dark, ugly barbarians who were dirty so that fits in with the average Slav man

[Fustan]

Any explanation for that red corner in South-Western Romania (Or north-western Bulgaria, can't tell)? Also, from what region do Arvanites originate? Judging by those Peloponnese percentages I would be inclined to say Ghegnia... http://d2trtkcohkrm90.cloudfront.net/images/emoji/apple/ios-10/33/1818.png

arvanites came mostly from the south iirc, but from the north too

[Kelmendasi]

Just texted my Bab about it. Honestly shits crazy. All of Shala shares the same ancestry even though Bobi, Gimaj, and Nënmavriq are all said to have different origins. I always assumed the Mavriqi were Slavs because Mavro is a Serbian name plus the Albanization of ić -> iqi. Damn I really hope we get R1b-L23 like Shala, or else that would kinda shatter our folklore of our ancestors being brothers.
The Mavraj/Mavriqi are Albanians, they are E-V13

[Kouros]

arvanites came mostly from the south iirc, but from the north too

If I recall correctly, Kelmendasi said that the first name Albanians went by was Arvanites. I also remember reading that Albanians share more common ancestors with each other than any other European country, and that this stems from dispersal ~1500 yrs ago (forgive me if I'm mistaken here). Is it possible that these 'proto-Albanians' if you will, were Arvanites?

[Ujku]

Correct.
Tosks are heavily Slav-influenced.

Slavic power bitch.

[Fustan]

If I recall correctly, Kelmendasi said that the first name Albanians went by was Arvanites. I also remember reading that Albanians share more common ancestors with each other than any other European country, and that this stems from dispersal ~1500 yrs ago (forgive me if I'm mistaken here). Is it possible that these 'proto-Albanians' if you will, were Arvanites?

I believe it has to do with Albanians stemming from a small group of people who were isolated in the mountains, and that have expanded since then (that's the reason iirc, perhaps skerdilaid, trojet or kelmendasi can shed some light)

Arvanitis is just a Greek word for what Albanians used to call themselves (Arbënesh), Arvanits and Albanians were synonymous in the "proto" era so I'm not sure what you mean here

[Ujku]

If I recall correctly, Kelmendasi said that the first name Albanians went by was Arvanites. I also remember reading that Albanians share more common ancestors with each other than any other European country, and that this stems from dispersal ~1500 yrs ago (forgive me if I'm mistaken here). Is it possible that these 'proto-Albanians' if you will, were Arvanites?

Albania was called Arberia.

Arvanites is a term used by Grecophones to identify albos.

[Wrong]

Slavic power bitch.
Keep it civilized.

[Ujku]

Keep it civilized.

You have 20% eastern euro dna? lol

[Kouros]

Albania was called Arberia.

Arvanites is a term used by Grecophones to identify albos.


I believe it has to do with Albanians stemming from a small group of people who were isolated in the mountains, and that have expanded since then (that's the reason iirc, perhaps skerdilaid, trojet or kelmendasi can shed some light)

Arvanitis is just a Greek word for what Albanians used to call themselves (Arbënesh), Arvanits and Albanians were synonymous in the "proto" era so I'm not sure what you mean here

Thank you. Arbënesh was the word I was looking for not Arvanite, my bad.

[Kelmendasi]

If I recall correctly, Kelmendasi said that the first name Albanians went by was Arvanites. I also remember reading that Albanians share more common ancestors with each other than any other European country, and that this stems from dispersal ~1500 yrs ago (forgive me if I'm mistaken here). Is it possible that these 'proto-Albanians' if you will, were Arvanites?
Albanians originally were called Arbereshe and Arberor possibly stemming from a version of the word Alban. Arvanites are basically medieval Albanians iirc like the Arbereshe

[Dibran]

You say that they are based on scientific papers.

I say that the scientific papers do not provide enough data to create a map like this.

If the data exist I want to see them.

Right..., thats why it was data compiled over time from 100 scientific papers.

[Kelmendasi]

I believe it has to do with Albanians stemming from a small group of people who were isolated in the mountains, and that have expanded since then (that's the reason iirc, perhaps skerdilaid, trojet or kelmendasi can shed some light)

Arvanitis is just a Greek word for what Albanians used to call themselves (Arbënesh), Arvanits and Albanians were synonymous in the "proto" era so I'm not sure what you mean here
Yh I believe we stem from a small community who evolved in the mountains as shown by language and genetics

[Wrong]

arvanites came mostly from the south iirc, but from the north too
Looks like a significant number came from the north.

If this is correct:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png

[Wrong]

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NvR3jODOByQ/WPcDq_sZoLI/AAAAAAAY6NI/WtnDwQuIs4sxFmE1n14hXDfGD4dYzUvwgCLcB/s1600/tromaktiko17594.jpg

[Voskos]

Crete has around 1% J2b2 with expansion time around 1100AD according to peer-reviewed study I read.Coincides well with Arvanites.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

So its been a while.

I saw on FTDNA theres two new results that are -Z628 from russia and norway. Also was what was that ancient serbian or montenegrin 1500bc J-L283 specific subclade?

[Laberia]

Looks like a significant number came from the north.

If this is correct:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png

No, it's not accurate. It's a crap. Including this other map:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NvR3jODOByQ/WPcDq_sZoLI/AAAAAAAY6NI/WtnDwQuIs4sxFmE1n14hXDfGD4dYzUvwgCLcB/s1600/tromaktiko17594.jpg

[Laberia]

Any explanation for that red corner in South-Western Romania (Or north-western Bulgaria, can't tell)? Also, from what region do Arvanites originate? Judging by those Peloponnese percentages I would be inclined to say Ghegnia... http://d2trtkcohkrm90.cloudfront.net/images/emoji/apple/ios-10/33/1818.png


Tosk dialects[edit]
Main article: Tosk Albanian
Tosk is divided into five sub-dialects: Northern Tosk, Labërisht, Çam, Arvanitika, and Arbëresh. Northern Tosk is spoken in Berat, Fier, extreme southeastern Elbasan, most of Gramsh, Kolonjë, Korçë, Ohër, Përmet, east of the Vjosë river of Tepelenë, southern Struga (western shore of Lake Ohër), Pogradec, Prespa and northern Vlorë. Lab ((or Labërisht) is spoken in southern Vlorë, Dukat, Himarë, Mallakastër, Delvinë, west of the Vjosë river of Tepelenë, Gjirokastër and Sarandë. Çam is spoken in southern Sarandë (Konispol, Ksamil[citation needed], Markat, Xarrë) and in parts of northern Greece. Tosk dialects are spoken by most members of the large Albanian immigrant communities of Egypt, Turkey, and Ukraine. Çamërisht is spoken in North-western Greece, while Arvanitika is spoken by the Arvanites in southern Greece, mainly Peloponnese, Attica, Euboea, and the adjacent islands. Arbëresh is spoken by the Arbëreshë, descendants of 15th and 16th century migrants who settled in southeastern Italy, in small communities in the regions of Sicily, Calabria, Basilicata, Campania, Molise, Abruzzi, and Apulia.
Arvanites are Tosk Albanian. There is an small number of them from North, for example there was an village in Thessaly and one another in Peloponnese named both Kelmendi and some other toponyms. But the majority of them was from South Albania. For example you can find today in Athens, Malakastra, Ekali, Varibobi. In South Albania there is a region named Mallakastra, the inhabitants are called mallakastriotë. And in this region there are two villages, one is named Hekal, the other is named Varibob. There are plenty of "twins" toponyms in South Albania and in Greece that help to identify with accuracy the exact origine of many of the Arvanites. Their dialects are Tosk.

[Laberia]

Crete has around 1% J2b2 with expansion time around 1100AD according to peer-reviewed study I read.Coincides well with Arvanites.

Are you suggesting an migration in year 1100AD?

[Laberia]

I doubt that it's that high in parts of Greece that were never settled by Arvanites, such as Macedonia or Thrace. But we can see from the map that Corinth and Argolis i.e places that Arvanites settled the most, has a significat portion of it

There were Albanian settlements in Thrace. They were mostly Muslims. They were exchanged with people from Turkey. And it's interesting that some of the Christians who settled at their place were again Albanians. Before that the Albanian subforum was deleted, there was an thread with an interview with General Pangalos. According to him, some greek politicians didn't agree with this replacement, but in the end the Muslim Albanians were expelled.

[Laberia]

Yeah but when we settled the area we described the Mavriqi as being short, dark, ugly barbarians who were dirty so that fits in with the average Slav man

There are Mavriçi in Fier. They were expelled by servs and King Zog settled them there. They are exactly dark and short. I don't know if they have slavic ancestry. In Fier you can find many Albanians from Kosova. Kuç, Krasniq, Kastrati, Gashi, Backa, Shala, Kabashi, etc.

[Laberia]

Albanians originally were called Arbereshe and Arberor possibly stemming from a version of the word Alban. Arvanites are basically medieval Albanians iirc like the Arbereshe

No. There was an Illyrian tribe Arb. At least from middle age, our ancestors called themselves Arbër. Arvanites, Albanites, Albanese, Arbanasi, etc, are exonymus, it's how the others called us. Në greqisht germa b lexohet v.

[Laberia]

Yh I believe we stem from a small community who evolved in the mountains as shown by language and genetics

I don't know what genetics show, but language don't show that we stem from a small community.

[Kelmendasi]

There are Mavriçi in Fier. They were expelled by servs and King Zog settled them there. They are exactly dark and short. I don't know if they have slavic ancestry. In Fier you can find many Albanians from Kosova. Kuç, Krasniq, Kastrati, Gashi, Backa, Shala, Kabashi, etc.
Didn’t many Dibrans settle in the south as well?

[Laberia]

Didn’t many Dibrans settle in the south as well?
Dibrans during the XX century settled mostly in Tirana, Elbasan and Fier.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

How old were the palesgian people? When did they exist?

[Kelmendasi]

How old were the palesgian people? When did they exist?
They were in Greece before the Hellenic speakers came about so they were probably living during the early Bronze Age and I think were probably related in one way or the other to the Minoans and other pre-Greek peoples in Greece. I doubt they are linked to J2b2-L283 though, they seem to be more linked to J2a

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

They were in Greece before the Hellenic speakers came about so they were probably living during the early Bronze Age and I think were probably related in one way or the other to the Minoans and other pre-Greek peoples in Greece. I doubt they are linked to J2b2-L283 though, they seem to be more linked to J2aTheres sardinian J-L283. i think its JYP157. Its a very basal group of J-L283

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

https://www.yfull.com/sardinians/

[Kelmendasi]

Theres sardinian J-L283. i think its JYP157. Its a very basal group of J-L283
Yh it's a downstream of J-Z600 and seems to be pretty basal.

[Kelmendasi]

https://www.yfull.com/sardinians/
How do you check the samples based on ethnicity? Could you pls send a link for the Albanian samples??

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

How do you check the samples based on ethnicity? Could you pls send a link for the Albanian samples??I dont really know. I just google searched J-YP157 sardinian it showed up.

[Aren]

What is the oldest J2 sample in Europe? I believe it must have come during the Bronze Age with CHG/Iran_N rich groups from Anatolia.

[Kelmendasi]

What is the oldest J2 sample in Europe? I believe it must have come during the Bronze Age with CHG/Iran_N rich groups from Anatolia.
It's from Neolithic Hungary and belonging to the Sopot culture iirc. Yh certain clades of J2 could have come with those peoples that you mentioned, as for J2b2-L283 it seems that it has a PIE Brozne Age expansion going by our current evidence

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

J-l283 sardinians are probably descendants of palesgians but also infact the sea peoples.

The Sea Peoples invade and destroy everything in their path. Many cities are taken and destroyed, without the heroic resistance of the Athenians, the Mediterranean would have been conquered.”(source: plato timeaues)Pelasgians is the name the ancient Greeks gave them.“Pelasgians” (Greek Πελασγοί / Pelasgoí) is the name given by the ancient Greeks to the first inhabitants of Greece, before the great Achaean and Ionian invasions. The etymology of the name is uncertain.In the Iliad, Homer speaks of themas a native people of Thessaly, “the tribes of the Pelasgians with good spears, Pelasgians inhabitants of busty Larissa”(wiki)


http://eden-saga.com/en/pelasgians-seapeople-greece-egypt-thrace-rama.html

[Aren]

It's from Neolithic Hungary and belonging to the Sopot culture iirc. Yh certain clades of J2 could have come with those peoples that you mentioned, as for J2b2-L283 it seems that it has a PIE Brozne Age expansion going by our current evidence

What makes you say that? I thought it was exlcusively R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 who spread IE. How old is J2b2-L283 it btw?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

What makes you say that? I thought it was exlcusively R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 who spread IE. How old is J2b2-L283 it btw?J-L283 is is about 6200 years
Almost all of JL283 are J-z585 which is 5600 years ago. The earliest J-L283 is in sardinia Y full. the most basal 585 is also italian.
But on FTdna the most basal is a turkish person with a greek surname.

[Kelmendasi]

What makes you say that? I thought it was exlcusively R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 who spread IE. How old is J2b2-L283 it btw?
The oldest J2b2-L283 sample in Europe comes from a Proto-Illyrian sample from Bronze Age Dalmatia that had a good amount of Steppe and had an mtDNA which is typical among PIE/Steppe people also the woman accompanying him also carried a PIE mtDNA. Also another J2b2-L283 sample from Armenia also had a good amount of Steppe admix. Plus J2b* was found accompanying R1b-Z2103 according to the new paper. J2b2-L283 was one of the haplos absorbed by the IE R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 peoples, it was then included in their expansion. J2b2-L283 is 10,000ybp

[Kelmendasi]

J-L283 is is about 6200 years
Almost all of JL283 are J-z585 which is 5600 years ago. The earliest J-L283 is in sardinia Y full. the most basal 585 is also italian.
But on FTdna the most basal is a turkish person with a greek surname.
The TMRCA is 6,200ybp but the time of origin is 10,000ybp.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

The oldest J2b2-L283 sample in Europe comes from a Proto-Illyrian sample from Bronze Age Dalmatia that had a good amount of Steppe and had an mtDNA which is typical among PIE/Steppe people also the woman accompanying him also carried a PIE mtDNA. Also another J2b2-L283 sample from Armenia also had a good amount of Steppe admix. Plus J2b* was found accompanying R1b-Z2103 according to the new paper. J2b2-L283 was one of the haplos absorbed by the IE R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 peoples, it was then included in their expansion. J2b2-L283 is 10,000ybpThe proto illyrian sample while old. About 1600 bc is a subclade of many specific mutations. The ones in sardinia are more basal. And the turkish greek one.

The armenian one is quite basal though

[Kelmendasi]

The proto illyrian sample while old. About 1600 bc is a subclade of many specific mutations. The ones in sardinia are more basal. And the turkish greek one.

The armenian one is quite basal though
Yes this is true, the Proto-Illyrian was positive for quite a few downstreams. What expansion do you think brought in J2b2-L283? I would say either some late Neolithic expansion or a PIE one, the PIE one seems to have the most backing so far

[Aren]

The oldest J2b2-L283 sample in Europe comes from a Proto-Illyrian sample from Bronze Age Dalmatia that had a good amount of Steppe and had an mtDNA which is typical among PIE/Steppe people also the woman accompanying him also carried a PIE mtDNA. Also another J2b2-L283 sample from Armenia also had a good amount of Steppe admix. Plus J2b* was found accompanying R1b-Z2103 according to the new paper. J2b2-L283 was one of the haplos absorbed by the IE R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 peoples, it was then included in their expansion. J2b2-L283 is 10,000ybp

Interesting. But what made the authors classify the Croatian sample as Proto-Illyrian?

[Kelmendasi]

Interesting. But what made the authors classify the Croatian sample as Proto-Illyrian?
The time of when the Illyrians or cultures that would become the Illyrians and the age of the sample, the sample seemed to fit into this time frame. And the Illyrians were probably the only IE speakers in that region

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Yes this is true, the Proto-Illyrian was positive for quite a few downstreams. What expansion do you think brought in J2b2-L283? I would say either some late Neolithic expansion or a PIE one, the PIE one seems to have the most backing so farI dont know. But the proto illyrian at 1600BC is so many downstreams of JL283 it, when sardinians have very basal offshoots of JL283 it assures me that J-L283 has been there for quite some time far earlier than 1600bc. far beyond hellenes ever existed in europe. So it makes me believe they were palesgians. And since its so odd that a a armenian would have old J-L283 it makes me think palesgians came from the steppe caucaus area far earlier than 1600bc. Probably around 5-6 thousand years ago.
Possibly earlier than that

[Kelmendasi]

I dont know. But the proto illyrian at 1600BC is so many downstreams of JL283 it, when sardinians have very basal offshoots of JL283 it assures me that J-L283 has been there for quite some time far earlier than 1600bc. far beyond hellenes ever existed in europe. So it makes me believe they were palesgians. And since its so odd that a a armenian would have old J-L283 it makes me think palesgians came from the steppe caucaus area far earlier than 1600bc. Probably around 5-6 thousand years ago.
Possibly earlier than that
It could be a possibility, but the L283 in Sardinians could be from the IE peoples like the Cetina who iirc migrated from the Dalmatia region of Croatia and into Italy and possibly Sardinia or it could be a native Nuragic haplogroup. I don't think the Pelasgians had much J2b2-L283 even if they did have it, in my opinion they carried haplogroups like J2a and G2a going by how the Minoans carried these haplogroups and they also were an Aegean Bronze Age civilization, J2b2-L283 seems to have more of a link to cultures like the Cetina, Vucedol etc when it comes to the Balkans.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

It could be a possibility, but the L283 in Sardinians could be from the IE peoples like the Cetina who iirc migrated from the Dalmatia region of Croatia and into Italy and possibly Sardinia or it could be a native Nuragic haplogroup. I don't think the Pelasgians had much J2b2-L283 even if they did have it, in my opinion they carried haplogroups like J2a and G2a going by how the Minoans carried these haplogroups and they also were an Aegean Bronze Age civilization, J2b2-L283 seems to have more of a link to cultures like the Cetina, Vucedol etc when it comes to the Balkans.

Didnt know about cetina culture. You could be right.

If its native to sardinia i think it may even be pre nuraghe