Does Veneto have Slavic influence?

[Raizen]

Venetians, Friulians and Trentinos (former triveneto) seems to plot more northern and eastern than others Italians and i know that some Friulians even speak Slavic language. Also, they are the Italians with highest percentages of blond hair and blue eyes, do they have Slavic genetic influence?

https://i.imgur.com/PiRyQHW.jpg

[Raizen]

bump

[Vid Flumina]

First time I see Veneto more eastern than Friuli. Which calc does that come from?

[Raizen]

First time I see Veneto more eastern than Friuli. Which calc does that come from?

It was posted in Eurogenes blog by davidski, i don't know the calc that he used

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I don't know from where it could come.

[Raizen]

I don't know from where it could come.

Slavs did migrated to northeastern italy and slavic is even spoke in some regions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_Friulana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavomolisano_dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resian_dialect

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Slavs did migrated to northeastern italy and slavic is even spoke in some regions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_Friulana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavomolisano_dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resian_dialect

Ayy, yes. I forgot that Slovenian R1a branch is exactly the same like Ukraino-Russian. R1a-Z280.

[Raizen]

Ayy, yes. I forgot that Slovenian R1a branch is exactly the same like Ukraino-Russian. R1a-Z280.

Looks how veneto goes towards slovenia in this plot map when compared to lombardy, they have slavic ancestry imo, it doesn't seems to be germanic because they shift to the east, not to the west

https://i.imgur.com/S0sVfRp.png

[Vid Flumina]

Slavia Friulana is a tiny minority along the border with Slovenia, not really representative of Friuli.

Veneto should be west of Friuli and closer to Trentino:

https://i.imgur.com/Z3NrUkn.png

https://i.imgur.com/JgPyu1v.png

Notice the gap between Friuli and Slovenia. Slavic admix in the northeast would only make sense if Late Roman Triveneto was more like Lombardy or Liguria and then got pulled a smidge closer to their slavic neighbors.

[Raizen]

Slavia Friulana is a tiny minority along the border with Slovenia, not really representative of Friuli.

Veneto should be west of Friuli and closer to Trentino:

Notice the gap between Friuli and Slovenia. Slavic admix in the northeast would only make sense if Late Roman Triveneto was more like Lombardy or Liguria and then got pulled a smidge closer to their slavic neighbors.

Ok but why veneto together with the rest of northeastern italy is genetically more northern and eastern than the rest of northern italy?

[Vid Flumina]

I'd say it's just Lombardy being affected by Emilia-Romagna, Piedmont is usually up there with Veneto/Friuli only more western.

Most Lombards are sandwiched between Emilia Romagna and the Alps while the other regions develop more outward, thus being less influenced by a central shifted area.

[vitrum]

Venetians, Friulians and Trentinos (former triveneto) seems to plot more northern and eastern than others Italians and i know that some Friulians even speak Slavic language. Also, they are the Italians with highest percentages of blond hair and blue eyes, do they have Slavic genetic influence?

https://i.imgur.com/PiRyQHW.jpg

That PCA above is based on correlation matrix.

Below same PCA of that above but based on variance-covariance matrix. Most PCAs are based on this matrix.

https://i.imgur.com/4eboFBC.jpg


Venetians, Friulians and Trentinos don't plot more northern and eastern than others Italians because of Slavic admixture but because they have more EHG-like components not due to a Slavic source. Only some Friulians can have some Slavic admixture.

[Raizen]

That PCA above is based on correlation matrix.

Below same PCA of that above but based on variance-covariance matrix. Most PCAs are based on this matrix.

https://i.imgur.com/4eboFBC.jpg


Venetians, Friulians and Trentinos don't plot more northern and eastern than others Italians because of Slavic admixture but because they have more EHG-like components not due to a Slavic source. Only some Friulians can have some Slavic admixture.

So where they got this additional EHG in comparison to others northern italians?

[vitrum]

So where they got this additional EHG in comparison to others northern italians?

They are geographically closer to EHG-like sources than other northern Italians. It is due to various sources and most of these sources are ancient, example the ancient Venetics were similar to the Latins who migrated from Central Europe. And then in small part is also due to Germanic migrations, the Lombards entered Italy from Friuli, there were medieval migrations from southern Germany to Veneto, Friuli and Trentino, but Germanic migrations are not the main cause and the Slavic migrations have affected only a small part of Friuli.

[Bec Sinani]

Its Celtic influence probably, as Celts bordered them on the East

[Vid Flumina]

Its Celtic influence probably, as Celts bordered them on the East



Gauls would have pulled Triveneto northwest toward France/British Isles rather than northeast, so you would have something more Aosta-like.
Germanic is more likely, but I agree with Vitrum that such input cannot be significant looking also at uniparental markers.

Interesting to note that I (half Venetian) literally score no Northeast European on most tests, while all south slavic members I've seen so far have at least 25%.

Compare my results

https://s33.postimg.org/g3g7td24f/gencove.png

with those of Bosniensis (bosnian) and Europa Nazione (serbian)

https://i.imgur.com/wV1lcaf.png

https://i.imgur.com/tyd9XJB.jpg

[Bosniensis]

...

+1 I love being mentioned... xD

Both Italians and South Slavs are very much mixed.

We mixed with Slavs, while Italians mixed with Lombards, Franks and many other Germanic people.

[Bec Sinani]

Gauls would have pulled Triveneto northwest toward France/British Isles rather than northeast, so you would have something more Aosta-like.
Germanic is more likely, but I agree with Vitrum that such input cannot be significant looking also at uniparental markers.

Interesting to note that I (half Venetian) literally score no Northeast European on most tests, while all south slavic members I've seen so far have at least 25%.

Compare my results

https://s33.postimg.org/g3g7td24f/gencove.png

with those of Bosniensis (bosnian) and Europa Nazione (serbian)

https://i.imgur.com/wV1lcaf.png

https://i.imgur.com/tyd9XJB.jpg



In this case it seems to be the Eastern Meditarrean/Balkan that shifts Venetians more East. It could be Ilyrian ancestry.



I get high Venetian on all calculators that have it, this k36 similarity map gives me high north east italian more than neighboring Slavic countries for example

https://s14.postimg.org/p503csa0f/IMG_20171226_100010.png

[Bosniensis]

In this case it seems to be the Eastern Meditarrean/Balkan that shifts Venetians more East. It could be Ilyrian ancestry.



I get high Venetian on all calculators that have it, this k36 similarity map gives me high north east italian more than neighboring Slavic countries for example



Do you believe I am more Balkan shifted than Poland and Ukraine?

[Bec Sinani]

Do you believe I am more Balkan shifted than Poland and Ukraine?

Obviously you are more native Balkan, ateast within 500 years . Slavic genes seem to of been diluted as time passed.

Ive said before Slavic ancestry depends on the individual, youre more Southern shifted and Balkan while Europa nazione is more northern or almost 50% - 50%

You score really high Balkan on 23andme , higher than most South Slavs Ive seen. Your results are similar to Montenigrins.

[Bosniensis]

Obviously you are more native Balkan, ateast within 500 years . Slavic genes seem to of been diluted as time passed.

Ive said before Slavic ancestry depends on the individual, youre more Southern shifted and Balkan while Europa nazione is more northern or almost 50% - 50%

You score really high Balkan on 23andme , higher than most South Slavs Ive seen. Your results are similar to Montenigrins.

I am from Montenegro, we came to Kordun Croatia in 15th century, then my grandfather mixed with Gorani woman, my father is 50% Montenegrin + 50% Gorani, while my mother is Celtic shifted "H"

[vitrum]

In this case it seems to be the Eastern Meditarrean/Balkan that shifts Venetians more East. It could be Ilyrian ancestry.


I get high Venetian on all calculators that have it, this k36 similarity map gives me high north east italian more than neighboring Slavic countries for example

https://s14.postimg.org/p503csa0f/IMG_20171226_100010.png


It's Friuli-Venezia Giulia there not Veneto, as it was written on Anthrogenica. Friuli-Venezia Giulia has more Balkan influence than Veneto.

[Bec Sinani]

It's Friuli-Venezia-Giulia there not Veneto. Friuli-Venezia-Giulia has more Balkan influence than Veneto.

I thought Venezia and Veneto were the same thing. That Veneto is a region and Venezia lies within it.

I get high Veneto on all other calcs therefor I also gathered its the same thing as on this map

[Vid Flumina]

In this case it seems to be the Eastern Meditarrean/Balkan that shifts Venetians more East. It could be Ilyrian ancestry.



I get high Venetian on all calculators that have it, this k36 similarity map gives me high north east italian more than neighboring Slavic countries for example

https://s14.postimg.org/p503csa0f/IMG_20171226_100010.png

It may very well be. I keep consistently getting high Balkan on these tests, like over 50% on Dna.Land for instance.

Also IIRC, some Illyrian tribes like the Histri and Liburnians were characterized by strong Venetic influences historically.

[vitrum]

I thought Venezia and Veneto were the same thing. That Veneto is a region and Venezia lies within it.

Venezia is the historical capital of Veneto but the name of Friuli-Venezia Giulia literally means "Friuli and Julian Venetia" (Julian Venetia=Venezia Giulia). "Julian Venetia" is a new term coined in the late 1800s, it's an historical region and doesn't belong to Veneto and was referred more or less to "Gorizia, Trieste and Istria (Zara, Pola, Fiume), some parts are today in Italy, while other parts are today split among Croatia and Slovenia. Julian Venetia is the southern-easternmost part of Friuli-Venezia Giulia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_March

http://www.eventi-news.it/uploads/carta_fvg_turistica_900px_v1_copia.jpg



I get high Veneto on all other calcs therefor I also gathered its the same thing as on this map

Which calculators use a Venetian sample?

[Bec Sinani]

Venezia is the historical capital of Veneto but the name of Friuli-Venezia Giulia literally means "Friuli and Julian Venetia" (Julian Venetia=Venezia Giulia). "Julian Venetia" is a new term coined in the late 1800s, it's an historical region and doesn't belong to Veneto and was referred more or less to "Gorizia, Trieste and Istria (Zara, Pola, Fiume), some parts are today in Italy, while other parts are today split among Croatia and Slovenia. Julian Venetia is the southern-easternmost part of Friuli-Venezia Giulia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_March

http://www.eventi-news.it/uploads/carta_fvg_turistica_900px_v1_copia.jpg




Which calculators use a Venetian sample?

NMonte for example has a Veneto sample but also friuli . I get both. anyway veneto and friuli venezia are just neighboring areas and dont seem too genetically different.

You are right the 78 score i get is veneto while the 81 is friuli venezia

I dont know that much about these areas but im guessing these areas were inhabited by ancient venetic tribes that stretched all the way down to Dalmatia





I noticed all Northern shifted Albanians get high North Eastern Italy and overall less Southern areas of the Balkans/Italy.

I seem pretty much a mix of south Balkan and north Balkan

[Bec Sinani]

It may very well be. I keep consistently getting high Balkan on these tests, like over 50% on Dna.Land for instance.

Also IIRC, some Illyrian tribes like the Histri and Liburnians were characterized by strong Venetic influences historically.

North Ilyrians were said to be closely related to Venetic and their language similar that it confused many historians what tribes were Ilyrian and what venetic, for example histri and liburni are now believed to of been venetic tribes

This is also what caused the whole centum vs satem debate, there is no proof Ilyrian was ever centum, it was just based off venetic scripts that were thought to be Ilyrian, but the latter was probably satem like Albanian.


When it comes atleast to Western Balkans, I think there are two genetic components, south Balkan and north Balkan

The northenmost Ilyrian areas probably plotted more north like northern italians


Since there is a genetic difference among south and north italian why not assume same for Balkans

[Kelmendasi]

On the K36 similarity map made my Mlukaz I had a high amount of similarity with the Veneto region

[Bosniensis]

On the K36 similarity map made my Mlukaz I had a high amount of similarity with the Veneto region

Hey man, haven't seen you for a while :) you used to spam threads just like myself :D

[Token]

In the past-century, the mainstream view among linguists was that Venetic was part of the Illyrian branch, it is interesting that northern-shifted Albanians shows high affinity with Northeastern Italians, suggesting that the component that shift both populations to the north is similar, possibly of Illyrian origin.

[Kelmendasi]

Hey man, haven't seen you for a while :) you used to spam threads just like myself :D
Haha ;)

[Percivalle]

There are four samples from North Italy in the K36 similarity tool, and these are their average results (100)


Northern Italians from various northern Italian regions, closer to a northern Italian average (IT North)


https://i.imgur.com/lZA3Zxv.jpg


Northern Italians from Canton Ticino (Italian-speaking Switzerland)

https://i.imgur.com/eTkgIkO.jpg


Northwestern Italians from Aosta valley

https://i.imgur.com/BtNFNuv.jpg


Northeastern Italians from Friuli (FVG)

https://i.imgur.com/Ptl8Yw1.jpg

[Bec Sinani]

On the K36 similarity map made my Mlukaz I had a high amount of similarity with the Veneto region

Yeah all Albanians that have ancestry from Southern Montenegro and Northenmost areas of Albania seem to be Northern shifted and get high of this.

You get it since youre paternally from there but you are still more Southern than me as you same time match more Southern areas, since you said your mother is from Dibra makes sense why you get pulled more south. As people of this area probably are more Southern shifted overall.

The Montenegro on k36 has ALBANIAN samples I believe as it says right on the k36 page Albanian_Montenegro, I get high match there too, and the similarity for North East Italians with Balkan people peaks around there too as I belive its from Northern most Albanians if you take a look at my results and some other Albanians.

The similarity drops as you move more South.

Its interesting because Coon mentioned people from those northenmost Gheg areas came partially from more North of the Balkans.

I believe the northenmost shifted Malsor areas are Malsia e madhe, Malsia e Gjakoves and Malsia e Dukagjinit probably

I noticed in general Albanians from these areas or that have ancestry from there are the most Northern shifted atleast Malsia e madhe/gruda and probably malsia e gjakoves but dont quote me on those others as im not sure

https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe-map15.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

Yeah all Albanians that have ancestry from Southern Montenegro and Northenmost areas of Albania seem to be Northern shifted and get high of this.

You get it since youre paternally from there but you are still more Southern than me as you same time match more Southern areas, since you said your mother is from Dibra makes sense why you get pulled more south. As people of this area probably are more Southern shifted overall.

The Montenegro on k36 has ALBANIAN samples I believe as it says right on the k36 page Albanian_Montenegro, I get high match there too, and the similarity for North East Italians with Balkan people peaks around there too as I belive its from Northern most Albanians if you take a look at my results and some other Albanians.

The similarity drops as you move more South.

Its interesting because Coon mentioned people from those northenmost Gheg areas came partially from more North of the Balkans.

I believe the northenmost shifted Malsor areas are Malsia e madhe, Malsia e Gjakoves and Malsia e Dukagjinit probably

I noticed in general Albanians from these areas or that have ancestry from there are the most Northern shifted atleast Malsia e madhe/gruda and probably malsia e gjakoves but dont quote me on those others as im not sure

[IM]https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe-map15.jpg[/IMG]
Yh I think my maternal side gives me a bit more of a south shift when compared to you and a few other Albos but going by genetic similarity I scored quite close with north Italy(In fact it was one of my closest matches) and will try and find the map that was made for me, anyways Dibra would be expected usually to be more northern plotting than it is as many paternally seem to have origin from northwestern Albania(around Nikc in Kelmend as shown by the J2b2-Y23094 there which is really close to that in Kelmend), will see if my mothers side belong to that lineage as I have shipped back my mothers paternal cousins sample to Ftdna. Imo, the most northern shifted Albanians are that from Malsia e Madhe and especially the part in Montenegro, so the regions of Kuqi, Grude, as well as places like Vusanje etc would be most northern plotting imo

[Kelmendasi]

My K36 similarity map:

https://s9.postimg.org/3s69cue67/kel.jpg

[Bec Sinani]

Yh I think my maternal side gives me a bit more of a south shift when compared to you and a few other Albos but going by genetic similarity I scored quite close with north Italy(In fact it was one of my closest matches) and will try and find the map that was made for me, anyways Dibra would be expected usually to be more northern plotting than it is as many paternally seem to have origin from northwestern Albania(around Nikc in Kelmend as shown by the J2b2-Y23094 there which is really close to that in Kelmend), will see if my mothers side belong to that lineage as I have shipped back my mothers paternal cousins sample to Ftdna. Imo, the most northern shifted Albanians are that from Malsia e Madhe and especially the part in Montenegro, so the regions of Kuqi, Grude, as well as places like Vusanje etc would be most northern plotting imo

Do k36, its easy, just put in your numbers in this link from eurogenes k36 gedmatch calcs


http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm



What did you get on nMonte?


What I found interesting is the high match with north east italy but much less with its neighboring areas Croatia, Slovenia etc. Seems like the Slavs there almost replaced a native population or something.


My maternal side is supposedly Kuqi, seems all my sides I know are quite Northern areas.

But Kuqi seem to of split from Berish thousands of years ago ? Berish area is in Puka

I read that some of these tribes could be much older than recorded, even dating to Roman and pre Roman times such as Berisha , dont know how true but this distance between berish and kuq is interesting

[Kelmendasi]

Do k36, its easy, just put in your numbers in this link from eurogenes k36 gedmatch calcs


http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm



What did you get on nMonte?


What I found interesting is the high match with north east italy but much less with its neighboring areas Croatia, Slovenia etc. Seems like the Slavs there almost replaced a native population or something.


My maternal side is supposedly Kuqi, seems all my sides I know are quite Northern areas.

But Kuqi seem to of split from Berish thousands of years ago ? Berish area is in Puka

I read that some of these tribes could be much older than recorded, even dating to Roman and pre Roman times such as Berisha , dont know how true but this distance between berish and kuq is interesting
I don't remember exactly what I got on Nmonte but it was really inaccurate. Yh same I too have a higher match with Italy in general than south Slavic nations. Kuqi traditionally descends from a guy called Drekali who came to Montenegro(Kuqi region) from Berisha, he was from the Berisha e Kuqe brotherhood of Berishe which with him would move to Montenegro and became Kuqi, the Drekali branch of Kuqi is the one the Albanians come from and are also called Berisha e Kuqe(Kastrati also claim to descend from the Drekali of Kuqi) whilst the other branch of Kuqi is the old Kuqi branch who were the native Serbs that Drekali and his clansmen came across, Berisha e Kuqe is E-V13>Z16661 whilst the old Kuq are R1a. Genetically though Berisha and Kuqi(Berisha e Kuqe) have an extremely distant relation which spans thousands of years as Kuqi is Z16661 whilst Berisha is FGC33625 which both share S2979 as a common ancestor 4,000 years ago. Berisha is recognized as the oldest clan of all and Kelmendi, Kuqi and a few other clans in Malsia come after as the oldest, the Berisha were mentioned since the 1300s.

My K36 similarity:
https://s9.postimg.org/v463rivbj/image_68.png

[Carlito's Way]

It may very well be. I keep consistently getting high Balkan on these tests, like over 50% on Dna.Land for instance.

Also IIRC, some Illyrian tribes like the Histri and Liburnians were characterized by strong Venetic influences historically.

I tested my maternal grandmother's brother and he also scored over 50% Balkan on his DNA Land, I remember speaking about this here and another forum. I didn't know what to think about them since I didn't have Venetian results to compare them to his results. I just thought it was strange, and I even thought I must've had a Balkan ancestor who settled in Veneto, but since you yourself who is half Venetian also scored over 50% Balkan, it makes sense now

I think Northeastern Italians will score high Balkan on DNA Land

Forgot to mention that my relative is 100% of Venetian heritage

[Dick]

I tested my maternal grandmother's brother and he also scored over 50% Balkan on his DNA Land, I remember speaking about this here and another forum. I didn't know what to think about them since I didn't have Venetian results to compare them to his results. I just thought it was strange, and I even thought I must've had a Balkan ancestor who settled in Veneto, but since you yourself who is half Venetian also scored over 50% Balkan, it makes sense now

I think Northeastern Italians will score high Balkan on DNA Land

Forgot to mention that my relative is 100% of Venetian heritage

Ancestrydna assigned me to a genetic community called "northeast Italy, croatia, bosnia". Odd name since it seems to encompass more than just those ethnicities mentioned.

https://i.imgur.com/ha1q0Tg.jpg

[Carlito's Way]

Ancestrydna assigned me to a genetic community called "northeast Italy, croatia, bosnia". Odd name since it seems to encompass more than just those ethnicities mentioned.

https://i.imgur.com/ha1q0Tg.jpg

They have Northern Italy but I think that one is Northwestern Italy, because my dad's genetic community was Northern Italy and he has Lombardy ancestry

But I found the Northeastern Italy, Croatia & Bosnia and Herzegovina to be such a weird genetic community, Northeastern Italy on AncestryDNA pretty much covers Veneto and Venezia

[Raizen]

They have Northern Italy but I think that one is Northwestern Italy, because my dad's genetic community was Northern Italy and he has Lombardy ancestry

But I found the Northeastern Italy, Croatia & Bosnia and Herzegovina to be such a weird genetic community, Northeastern Italy on AncestryDNA pretty much covers Veneto and Venezia

Venetians have some gopnik blood

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/3b/32/0d3b32bd6506ebbf0a4937c81451f890.jpg

[Carlito's Way]

Venetians have some gopnik blood

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/3b/32/0d3b32bd6506ebbf0a4937c81451f890.jpg

Are gopnik russians?

[Raizen]

Are gopnik russians?

Yep. Imo there is no other explanation to why they are northeastern shfited and plot very close to friuli, that received slavic input, imo it is slovenian ancestry. They also score high balkan like you said, probably due to shared genetic with South slavs. However they also plot close to tyrol, so austrian ancestry is not entirely impossible as they are quite genetically eastern too

[Vitorog]

Probably little.

[Vid Flumina]

I tested my maternal grandmother's brother and he also scored over 50% Balkan on his DNA Land, I remember speaking about this here and another forum. I didn't know what to think about them since I didn't have Venetian results to compare them to his results. I just thought it was strange, and I even thought I must've had a Balkan ancestor who settled in Veneto, but since you yourself who is half Venetian also scored over 50% Balkan, it makes sense now

I think Northeastern Italians will score high Balkan on DNA Land

Forgot to mention that my relative is 100% of Venetian heritage

Interesting. Can you post his results/kit number?