Is Polish R1a of Slavic origin?

[Peterski]

Poland was majority-R1a already in the Copper-Bronze Ages (see below, I'm posting two slides from a presentation at ancient DNA conference which took place this Summer), so Magnolia's idea that all of Polish R1a came from Ukraine or Belarus in the Migration Period 1500 years ago is rather wrong: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?231269-Poland-before-Indo-Europeans&p=4874183&viewfull=1#post4874183

Obłaczkowo, 2865-2578 BC, Corded Ware culture, R1a
Łęki Małe, 2286-2048 BC, Proto-Unetice culture, R1a
Gustorzyn, 1953-1880 BC, Iwno culture, R1a
Rogalin, 1900-1615 BC, Strzyżew culture, 2x R1a

Samborzec, 2400-2200 BC, Bell Beaker culture, 3x R1b

https://i.imgur.com/pWuyc1n.png

[Ülev]

Amun R1a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun) habitat

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Lusatian.

But mostly probably Lusatians mixed with ancestors of Balto-Slavs and formed "Zarubintsy culture", which is by official informations connected with proto-Slavs. So yes, we can say yes.

[Peterski]

But no R1a in Poland before Corded Ware, it seems that we had mainly I2 at that time:


GAC culture in Poland was autosomally 3/4 Euro Neolithic + 1/4 WHG and their Y-DNA was I2:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/09/19/135616.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/09/19/135616.DC4/135616-1.pdf

(...)

Gray = EEF (LBK) admixture; green and pink = HG admixture; yellow = Steppe admixture:

https://i.imgur.com/LfrU2mG.png

Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal coverage of Kierzkowo individuals:

Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo [I2441 / 8.5] M 3400-2800 BCE 510373 SNPs I2a2a1b
Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo [I2403 / 3.4] M 2870-2575 BCE 290049 SNPs I2a2
Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo [I2440 / 7.6] M 3100-2900 BCE 189493 SNPs I2
Globular Amphora Poland Kierzkowo [I2405 / 8.2a] M 3335-3020 BCE 91505 SNPs I2a2

^^^
Autosomally, those GAC people were between modern Sardinians, Iberians, Basques and South French:

https://i.imgur.com/AvOoGBe.png

About the origins of Corded Ware: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/12/corded-ware-as-offshoot-of-hungarian.html

Oldest known sample of R1a-M417: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/T7R45C1xzO3IoMQeDzu22XMobp2OuPcxsKgRC-3mIgQYhV2TzH_MBY_eSW17_vCiIoyfZ_iaYAmV3RAg9y39=w13 24-h617-rw

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/T7R45C1xzO3IoMQeDzu22XMobp2OuPcxsKgRC-3mIgQYhV2TzH_MBY_eSW17_vCiIoyfZ_iaYAmV3RAg9y39=w13 24-h617-rw

[Ülev]

But no R1a in Poland before Corded Ware:



(...)

simply - early R1efugees

[Peterski]

Lusatian.

But mostly probably Lusatians mixed with ancestors of Balto-Slavs and formed "Zarubintsy culture", which is by official informations connected with proto-Slavs. So yes, we can say yes.

So an eastward migration from Poland, mixing with locals there, and then a back-migration to Poland?

[Token]

Yes, Proto-Slavic.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

So an eastward migration from Poland, mixing with locals there, and then a back-migration to Poland?

Exactly.

pic: 71188

[Rethel]

Not all. Some. But does it matter?

[Lucas]

Exactly.

pic: 71188

Wow. I can agree with that.

[Peterski]

Wow. I can agree with that.

I made that map a few years ago.

But I'm not sure if it is accurate, because so far there is no Pre-Medieval R1a-M458 from Poland.

Maybe it was the other way around and R1a-Z280 was in the west while R1a-M458 in the east.

[Rethel]

I made that map a few years ago.

But I'm not sure if it is accurate, because so far there is no Pre-Medieval R1a-M458 from Poland.

Maybe it was the other way around and R1a-Z280 was in the west while R1a-M458 in the east.

If datation of M458 is correct, there would be hard to find older samples.
According to this dataion M458 had dozen of people 2000-2500 years ago.
In addition probably scattered across Europe.

But I think, that there could be a chance to find it according to my alano-sarmatian theory.

[Peterski]

On the other hand, first I2a-Din shows up in Polish DNA only during the Early Middle Ages:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225194-Y-DNA-in-Early-Medieval-Poland

Niemcza, 900-1000 AD, Early Medieval Poland, I2a1b2-L621

https://s4.postimg.org/3n9kl6d5p/mapa.jpg

[Lucas]

I made that map a few years ago.

But I'm not sure if it is accurate, because so far there is no Pre-Medieval R1a-M458 from Poland.

Maybe it was the other way around and R1a-Z280 was in the west while R1a-M458 in the east.

But leaving Y-DNA, autosomes of Lusatians probably partly were Polish-like (Tollense). So such theory makes sense. But some remnants stayed in homeland and mixed with Germanics also. It wasn't so simple that everybody migrated.

[Ülev]

yesterday on russian tv online (russia24) I saw a reportage about Turks in Duisburg in Marxloh district ---> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxloh

and is it coincidence or not.... polish town Turek has the street named ul. Braci Marszlów - that names Marxloh and Marszlów sound identically!

https://mapa.targeo.pl/braci-marszlow-ul/turek-62-700/ulica

Kipchak Hakan has right?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

yesterday on russian tv online (russia24) I saw a reportage about Turks in Duisburg in Marxloh district ---> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxloh

and is it coincidence or not.... polish town Turek has the street named ul. Braci Marszlów - that names Marxloh and Marszlów sound identically!

https://mapa.targeo.pl/braci-marszlow-ul/turek-62-700/ulica

Kipchak Hakan has right?

You need to have in mind that R1a also can look European as fuck. Like that: He is tested R1a-Z280

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Koning-willem-alexander-okt-15-s.jpg/220px-Koning-willem-alexander-okt-15-s.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

yesterday on russian tv online (russia24) I saw a reportage about Turks in Duisburg in Marxloh district ---> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxloh

and is it coincidence or not.... polish town Turek has the street named ul. Braci Marszlów - that names Marxloh and Marszlów sound identically!

https://mapa.targeo.pl/braci-marszlow-ul/turek-62-700/ulica

Kipchak Hakan has right?

Taking ancestral Balkar M458 into consideration, it seems very plausible.

[Ülev]

actually I see strong Turan vibes on him

[Vlatko Vukovic]

actually I see strong Turan vibes on him

or you're just joking :D

I think that even the greatest pan-Turanist here Kipchak Hakan can't see any Turanid vibes on him.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Taking ancestral Balkar M458 into consideration, it seems very plausible.

Lusatian culture M458 = Non-Turks

I don't know for Balkars.

[Proto-Shaman]

actually I see strong Turan vibes on him

I don't see any Turanid in him bro.

[Ülev]

or you're just joking :D

I think that even the greatest pan-Turanist here Kipchak Hakan can't see any Turanid vibes on him.

his small eyes and cheekbones screams about Turkic ancestry
but we have to notice that Turkic ancestry is wider than everyone today thinks

[Vlatko Vukovic]

his small eyes and cheekbones screams about Turkic ancestry
but we have to notice that Turkic ancestry is wider than everyone today thinks

His cheekbones aren't very high.

There are Turkics with big eyes.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

but we have to notice that Turkic ancestry is wider than everyone today thinks

Could be found among Southeastern Ukrainians, some Russians, Romanians and Bulgarians in some significant case.

[Rethel]

I don't know for Balkars.

Look into my genetic thread where I did explain it - at least showed a possibility.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Look into my genetic thread where I did explain it - at least showed a possibility.

Which one?

[Dibran]

Wow. I can agree with that.

So if M458 was originally Lusatian and not Slavic, what in the hell is Lusatian lmao.

[Dibran]

If datation of M458 is correct, there would be hard to find older samples.
According to this dataion M458 had dozen of people 2000-2500 years ago.
In addition probably scattered across Europe.

But I think, that there could be a chance to find it according to my alano-sarmatian theory.

Weren't the discovered remains of Alans thus far G2a, and Scythians Z93. I am not disagreeing but how can we be sure without evidence? what is your theory anways?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

So if M458 was originally Lusatian and not Slavic, what in the hell is Lusatian lmao.

Lusatians M458 + R1b + I1 = Germanic people

Lusatians M458 + R1a + I2 = Slavic

In my eyes.

For better explanation, ask R1ethel

[Dibran]

Lusatians M458 + R1b + I1 = Germanic people

Lusatians M458 + R1a + I2 = Slavic

In my eyes.

For better explanation, ask R1ethel

Well I see what a mixture of said groups may have formed. I mean more specifically the Lusatians themselves. Prior to being assimilated. Is their language indo european? who is it closest to? Or is their language pre-indo-european?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Well I see what a mixture of said groups may have formed. I mean more specifically the Lusatians themselves. Prior to being assimilated. Is their language indo european? who is it closest to? Or is their language pre-indo-european?

Indo-E. But i didn't read it somewhere. It's just guessing.

[Rethel]

Which one?

The one which I said.


Weren't the discovered remains of Alans thus far G2a, and Scythians Z93.

Do you really think, that couple of people with two groups are representative for all steppic people from late antiguity?


I am not disagreeing but how can we be sure without evidence? what is your theory anways?

That M458 could be spreaded by Alans and Sarmatians.
Second explanation is early corded and similar, dispersion.

[Rethel]

ssk R1ethel

I don;t think if M458 was among Lusatians are major group, as
whole group 2500 ago had couple of people and was scattered
probably everywhere in Europe, if was not of sarmatian origin.

Generally could be, but there is zero samples
from Lusatia, so no way to say for sure.

[Dibran]

I don;t think if M458 was among Lusatians are major group, as
whole group 2500 ago had couple of people and was scattered
probably everywhere in Europe, if was not of sarmatian origin.

Generally could be, but there is zero samples
from Lusatia, so no way to say for sure.

So all we know is it descends from Central Corded Ware? What did Corded Ware speak? You;re confusing. You said you think M458 is Sarmatian, and now its not?

[Rethel]

So all we know is it descends from Central Corded Ware?

Could be.


What did Corded Ware speak?

IE.


You;re confusing.

Nope. Only you are reading what you want to be written.


You said you think M458 is Sarmatian, and now its not?

Can I only blindly think about one possibility?
Do you think, my brain is not allowed to have couple of hypothesis? :picard2:

I clearly said: That M458 could be spreaded by Alans and Sarmatians.

Maybe you are not familiar with the word "could be", then
check in the dictionary, before you are making artificial problem.
It is synonimous of "may be", "possibly is", "might be" and similar.

[Ülev]

:picard2:

[Raizen]

r1a and proud

[Dibran]

:picard2:

Why do you keep changing your Ydna and ethnicity? First I thought someone with a similar avatar but it’s not lol.

[Dibran]

Could be.



IE.



Nope. Only you are reading what you want to be written.



Can I only blindly think about one possibility?
Do you think, my brain is not allowed to have couple of hypothesis? :picard2:

I clearly said: That M458 could be spreaded by Alans and Sarmatians.

Maybe you are not familiar with the word "could be", then
check in the dictionary, before you are making artificial problem.
It is synonimous of "may be", "possibly is", "might be" and similar.

My grasp of the English language is far superior to that of your own considering I am born in English speaking country. Maybe it is you who needs reading comprehension to truly understand exactly what I was saying to you. Rather it’s your lack of understanding of the English language that makes your posts so damn confusing to decipher.

[Rethel]

My grasp of the English language is far superior to that of your own considering I am born in English speaking country. Maybe it is you who needs reading comprehension to truly understand exactly what I was saying to you. Rather it’s your lack of understanding of the English language that makes your posts so damn confusing to decipher.

So explain me, how saying "could be" means: "this is only one possible option" - as you did read. :bored:

[Dibran]

So explain me, how saying "could be" means: "this is only one possible option" - as you did read. :bored:

Like I said. The structure of your sentences are so off in English, its hard to tell whether you mean one thing or the other. Also most of your threads seems to be structured with some sense of "certainty" on your part. Is it a Polish thing? Because I can't seem to understand why someone with a weak grasp in the English language is going to argue the English language with a English born speaker. Learn to structure your sentences properly.

[Ülev]

Why do you keep changing your Ydna and ethnicity? First I thought someone with a similar avatar but it’s not lol.

I can't agree with R1ethelites, I live in Rethelistan and I see what's is going on on daily basis

[Rethel]

Like I said. The structure of your sentences are so off in English, its hard to tell whether you mean one thing or the other. Also most of your threads seems to be structured with some sense of "certainty" on your part. Is it a Polish thing? Because I can't seem to understand why someone with a weak grasp in the English language is going to argue the English language with a English born speaker. Learn to structure your sentences properly.

If you cant understand me, why do you argue?

Btw, it is very pathetic for other non-english-native useres, to talk about
language skills of others, when they made stupidity or have no arguments.

HOW MUCH MORE IT IS TRUTH IN THE CASE OF A GUY CLAIMING TO BE NATURAL SPEAKER! :picard2:

Just stop ashaming yourself - especially in such clear and trivial matter.
Don;t pretend, that you do not understand the fraze "could be", really. :picard2:
You are embarassing yourself, claiming in addition, that you are english genius.

Btw, how much more stupid arguments do you yet have against yourself?
Now you act like a woman. Insted of facing the matter, you are talking about my english.

I speak as I can and I will not change it in one second. And I leared myslef just in last couple
of last years, so expecting me to be perfect as you who was raised in english, is just moronic... :picard2:
It is just like having to a blind man an accusation that he is blind. This is your level. Pathetic.

Especially that it was your fault, not mine, becasue everyone here can understand the fraze "could be". :picard2:

Now please, elaborate again, how wrong is my english, and how you are sacrificing yourself to read it.
Probably you have to repeat it 100 times, becauae until 99 I will not know it... So, I am waiting, enlight me again.

[Dibran]

If you cant understand me, why do you argue?

Btw, it is very pathetic for other non-english-native useres, to talk about
language skills of others, when they made stupidity or have no arguments.

HOW MUCH MORE IT IS TRUTH IN THE CASE OF A GUY CLAIMING TO BE NATURAL SPEAKER! :picard2:

Just stop ashaming yourself - especially in such clear and trivial matter.
Don;t pretend, that you do not understand the fraze "could be", really. :picard2:
You are embarassing yourself, claiming in addition, that you are english genius.

Btw, how much more stupid arguments do you yet have against yourself?
Now you act like a woman. Insted of facing the matter, you are talking about my english.

I speak as I can, and I leared myslef just in last couple of years, and I will not change it in one second.
It is just like having to a blind man an accusation that he is blind. This is your level. Pathetic.

Especially that it was your fault, not mine, becasue evenone here can understand the fraze "could be". :picard2:

Now please, elaborate again, how wrong is my english, and how you are sacrificing yourself to read it.
probably you have to repeat it 100 times, becauae until 99 I will not know it... So, I am waiting, enlight me.

You must love reading/hearing yourself speak. Rabble.

[Rethel]

You must love reading/hearing yourself speak. Rabble.

Aha... and I am waiting for the answer on my question.
You quoted it - and later was you speaking about totaly different topic.
So, I am waiting. If you have problem with such simple question, ask somebody to help you.

Or it is your speciality - quoting the fragment, and talking about something else,
and later accusing somebody of wrong language skills - especially somebody, who
obviously never will speak on your level from obvious reasons... :picard2:

[Peterski]

Ancient samples of R1a-CTS1211 (M558) and R1a-Z92:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234383-R1a-CTS1211-(M558)-in-Bronze-Age-Lithuania-amp-Latvia&p=4939552&viewfull=1#post4939552

Spiginas2, Lithuania, 2130-1750 BC, Early Bronze Age, R1a-Z280>M558

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234383-R1a-CTS1211-(M558)-in-Bronze-Age-Lithuania-amp-Latvia&p=4939632&viewfull=1#post4939632

Turlojiske3, Lithuania, 1010–800 BC, Bronze Age, R1a-Z280>Z92>YP617

M558 is carried by around 1/5 of Polish men and Z92 is carried by ca. 1/24 to 1/20 of Polish men.

[lyakh]

There is probably less Z92 than 4-5% among Poles, although in northeastern (and maybe eastern) part of Poland share of Z92 may be above 5% due to Baltic and East Slavic ancestry of inhabitants of that part of Poland. But among population of Lesser Poland, Greater Poland, Silesia, Pomerania, (southern) Mazovia Z92 appears to be rare.

YP617 was found in Bulgaria (YP617*), Slovakia (Y29965) and Czech Republic (YP1700): https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP617/. TMRCA of YP617 is in my opinion larger than 3400 ybp. #256253 in FTDNA from Bosnia and Herzegovina is confirmed as YP617 (map of R1a branches from FTDNA project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap).

YP617 was also found in Scandinavia (Denmark and Sweden). In Sweden a branch of Y29965 and a branch of YP1700 were found. There is also YP617 from Ratzeburg, Schleswig-Holstein (#335467). #342710 from (central?) Germany is YP569+. #408875 from northern Germany was classified as YP617>YP573>YP569>YP575>Y11268-x2.

#N2278 from Poland is YP1700+ (although I suppose that it may be associated with Balts here). Another YP617 sample was found in Poznań (#147875, probably YP617>YP573>YP569>YP575>Y11268).

So YP617 appears to be Slavic haplogroup also, not (only) Baltic.

[Dragoon]

I have no idea...

Maybe some old. IndoEuropean, ProtoSlavic, Sarmat. Possibly 3000 BC old.
Maybe some new. Newer Slavic and other immigration 500AD.
Maybe the new waves were just old ones with Slavic language.

[lyakh]

In Poland another branch of Z92 was found - Z280>Z92>Z685>YP270>CTS4648>YP1408>YP1405*-A-x (#N54193 from eastern Greater Poland voivodeship and #446468 from eastern Lesser Poland voivodeship), but I suppose that this lineage is Baltic (rather West Baltic), not Slavic.

I think that vast majority of Polish R1a come from the east of what is today Poland (from middle Dnieper basin). Some clades of R1a may be Baltic.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

In Poland another branch of Z92 was found - Z280>Z92>Z685>YP270>CTS4648>YP1408>YP1405*-A-x (#N54193 from eastern Greater Poland voivodeship and #446468 from eastern Lesser Poland voivodeship), but I suppose that this lineage is Baltic (rather West Baltic), not Slavic.

I think that vast majority of Polish R1a come from the east of what is today Poland (from middle Dnieper basin). Some clades of R1a may be Baltic.

All Z92 are mainly Slavicized Balts.