North-South Cline of Continental Asians

[DaiViet]

Autosomal genetic PCA map for Han, Chinese minorities, and Japanese.

Northern Han are close to northern minorities, Southern Han to southern minorities. Japanese are genetically distant from Han and other continental Asians.

If Korean was on here they would be in between of Japanese and northern Han. If Vietnamese was on here they would be in between of Southern Han and Dai.

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/PCA-for-East-Asia-HGDP-data-The-first-2-PCA-components-of-the-East-Asian-continent-as-d_221792891
http://i64.tinypic.com/29x953d.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Where would Filipinos and Indonesians plot relative to these? Who are the Dai?

[DaiViet]

Where would Filipinos and Indonesians plot relative to these? Who are the Dai?

Filipino are pretty far out there on the left (green).

http://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Rplot08.png

Indonesians are very far out. You’d have to adjust the scale. Here they plot on the extreme left and right.

http://i64.tinypic.com/15cndcm.jpg

The Dai samples are from Xishuangbanna, Yunnan province of China. They’re one of the minorities.

[Iloko]

Is it Negrito and South Asian admixture which pulls Pinoys towards the far left on that PCA?..or is it something else as well? ..I believe Igorot would be considered as base Filipino/Austronesian, but then Pinoys will also have some Austro-Asiatic + Negrito/Indian admixed in.

[Gangrel]

Do you have one of these with mongol plots?

[DaiViet]

Do you have one of these with mongol plots?


I’ll post one when I find one from a credible source.

[DaiViet]

Here’s my list of populations in China and Vietnam ordered from most genetically “northern” to “southern”.

1. Manchuria, Tu
2. Beijing/Shanghai Han, Naxi
3. Hunan Han, Tujia
4. Fujian Han, Miao, Yao, She
5. Guangdong Han
6. Northern Kinh, Guangxi Han
7. Southern Kinh
8. Dai from Xishuangbanna Yunnan


Why does every study show Viets to be intermediate between Dai and Southern Han? What is the Dai connection?

This 2016 paper about movement of the of Dai populations in southern China and northern Vietnam by James R. Chamberlain’s paper titled “Kra-Dai and the Proto-History of South China and Vietnam” may help shed some light.

Link: https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/48419282/jss_014_0c_Chamberlain_KraDaiAndProtoHistoryofSout hChinaAndVietnam.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y 53UL3A&Expires=1516211973&Signature=vBu2djYdcICKbR53Rp7Ixa8yBcA%3D&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3DKra-Dai_and_the_Proto-History_of_South_C.pdf

“The onset of the Zhou dynasty at the end of the second millennium BCE coincides roughly with the establishment of the Chǔ (tshraʔ / khra C) fiefdom and the emergence of the ethnolinguistic stock known as Kra-Dai (Tai-Kadai). The ancestors of the Kra family proper, situated in the southwestern portion of Chǔ, began to disperse ostensibly as a result of upheavals surrounding the end of Shang, the beginning of Western Zhou, and the gradual rise of Chǔ into a full-fledged kingdom by the 8th century BCE. Beginning with this underlying premise and the stance of comparative and historical linguistics, the present paper provides, in a chronological frame, a hopefully more probable picture of the ethnolinguistic realities of China south of the Yangtze and relevant parts of Southeast Asia, including the geography past and present, of language stocks and families, their classification, time-depth, and the possible relationships between them. The focus is primarily on the Kra-Dai stock of language families up until the end of the Han Dynasty in the 2nd century CE, and secondarily up to the 11th century. Attention is given to what can be deduced or abduced with respect to ethnic identities in pre-Yue Lingnan and Annam, and to other questions such as whether or not Kam-Sui should be included under the rubric of Yue and the position of Mường in early Vietnam.”
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a62wqs.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/n6byg1.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/fbdf2r.jpg

[zhaoyun]

Here’s my list of populations in China and Vietnam ordered from most genetically “northern” to “southern”.

1. Manchuria, Tu
2. Beijing/Shanghai Han, Naxi
3. Hunan Han, Tujia
4. Fujian Han, Miao, Yao, She
5. Guangdong Han
6. Northern Kinh, Guangxi Han
7. Southern Kinh
8. Dai from Xishuangbanna Yunnan


Why does every study show Viets to be intermediate between Dai and Southern Han? What is the Dai connection?

This 2016 paper about movement of the of Dai populations in southern China and northern Vietnam by James R. Chamberlain’s paper titled “Kra-Dai and the Proto-History of South China and Vietnam” may help shed some light.

Link: https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/48419282/jss_014_0c_Chamberlain_KraDaiAndProtoHistoryofSout hChinaAndVietnam.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y 53UL3A&Expires=1516211973&Signature=vBu2djYdcICKbR53Rp7Ixa8yBcA%3D&response-content-disposition=attachment%3B%20filename%3DKra-Dai_and_the_Proto-History_of_South_C.pdf

“The onset of the Zhou dynasty at the end of the second millennium BCE coincides roughly with the establishment of the Chǔ (tshraʔ / khra C) fiefdom and the emergence of the ethnolinguistic stock known as Kra-Dai (Tai-Kadai). The ancestors of the Kra family proper, situated in the southwestern portion of Chǔ, began to disperse ostensibly as a result of upheavals surrounding the end of Shang, the beginning of Western Zhou, and the gradual rise of Chǔ into a full-fledged kingdom by the 8th century BCE. Beginning with this underlying premise and the stance of comparative and historical linguistics, the present paper provides, in a chronological frame, a hopefully more probable picture of the ethnolinguistic realities of China south of the Yangtze and relevant parts of Southeast Asia, including the geography past and present, of language stocks and families, their classification, time-depth, and the possible relationships between them. The focus is primarily on the Kra-Dai stock of language families up until the end of the Han Dynasty in the 2nd century CE, and secondarily up to the 11th century. Attention is given to what can be deduced or abduced with respect to ethnic identities in pre-Yue Lingnan and Annam, and to other questions such as whether or not Kam-Sui should be included under the rubric of Yue and the position of Mường in early Vietnam.”
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a62wqs.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/n6byg1.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/fbdf2r.jpg

Are the Kra the ancestors of modern Thai? And Rei of the Vietnamese?

[DaiViet]

Are the Kra the ancestors of modern Thai? And Rei of the Vietnamese?

Depends which Thai you’re referring to. Thais are not genetically homogenous though they speak Daic language.

Northern Thais are probably descendants of Kra, as are the Dai in Xishuangbanna Yunnan. Eastern Thai are mainly Khmers. Southern Thai are Malays. Central Thai are a mixed bag, with Bangkok having a large minority of southern Chinese who have assimilated.

Source: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0079522

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0079522.g004&size=inline


Viets are most likely a mix of Rei and Kra with a minor component of Han mixed in. They’re genetically Dai who are pulled towards southern Han.

If you look at Chamberlain’s map, Kra and Rei are both within north Vietnam’s territory. Vietnam does not share a border with Thailand.

http://i68.tinypic.com/n6byg1.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/fbdf2r.jpg

The Red River Delta of Vietnam:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Red_hong_rivermap.png

The original homeland of Vietnamese are the yellow area labeled as Ly Dynasty. Southern expansion occurred over several centuries, and Saigon was not a part of Vietnam until the 18th century.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Nam_Tien.PNG

[DaiViet]

My original link to Chamberlain’s paper no longer works, so here’s a new one:

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/353906491/Chamberlain-2016-KraDaiAndProtoHistoryofSouthChinaAndVietnam

[Mingle]

Are the Kra the ancestors of modern Thai? And Rei of the Vietnamese?

Ethnolinguistically speaking, they both share a common ancestor but aren't ancestral to one another. It's sort of similar to Hans and Tibetans.

Rei = Hlai. They're the pre-Han population of Hainan.

[Mingle]

Where would Filipinos and Indonesians plot relative to these? Who are the Dai?

Dai is the term given to people that speak Southwestern Tai languages such as those in Thailand, Laos, Northwest Vietnam, and Eastern Myanmar. The only part of China they're a majority in is Xishuangbanna, which is a prefecture in Yunnan. They were also all historically part of the Indosphere (including the ones in China).

[Mingle]

The original homeland of Vietnamese are the yellow area labeled as Ly Dynasty. Southern expansion occurred over several centuries, and Saigon was not a part of Vietnam until the 18th century.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Nam_Tien.PNG

Not all of the Ly Dynasty. The northern part was Nung, northwestern part was Tai and the southern part of the Ly Dynasty area was Muong. Kinh people were originally from the Red River Delta and then conquered the other lands later.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/VietnamRedRiverDeltamap.png