Difference between Albanians and Greeks? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 01:37 PM

What is the difference between Albanians and Greeks?

Genetically speaking (ONLY)

I've seen a lot of EV13 results and compared them with Greek ones... they look the same to me?

Is there any difference?

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 01:42 PM

Böri

01-06-2018, 01:45 PM

Albanians are much less Levantine and African than Greeks on autosomal and more north Euro shifted, while on y-dna Albanians are more E1b v13 whereas Greeks cover the gap with more J2.

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 01:45 PM

Albanians are more northern shifted and sometimes western shifted than Greeks. Albanians do have different subclades of E-V13 than Greeks, the J2 dominant in Albanians is J2b2 whilst in Greeks it’s J2a also from what I have seen Albanians have more R1b-BY611

Well, even Northern Greeks are Northern Shifted... that's natural...

Are you sure that Greeks are exclusively J2a while Albanians are J2b2?

Turks have a lot of J2? do you know is it J2a or J2b2?

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 01:50 PM

Well, even Northern Greeks are Northern Shifted... that's natural...

Are you sure that Greeks are exclusively J2a while Albanians are J2b2?

Turks have a lot of J2? do you know is it J2a or J2b2?
Yes but Albanians still plot north of them. Greek J2b2 fits in with Arvanites in most cases, Albanians are almost exclusively J2b2 when it comes to J2. Turkish J2 is J2a but it’s from the Anatolian branches

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 01:53 PM

Yes but Albanians still plot north of them. Greek J2b2 fits in with Arvanites in most cases, Albanians are almost exclusively J2b2 when it comes to J2. Turkish J2 is J2a but it’s from the Anatolian branches

Oh, I understand now.

So there is practically a significant difference between southern and northern Albanians.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 01:57 PM

Oh, I understand now.

So there is practically a significant difference between southern and northern Albanians.
Nah, Albanians are one of if not the most homogeneous ethnic group in Europe according to genetic studies, so Tosks cluster closesly with Ghegs. What I was saying that Albanians plot slightly north of Greeks

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 01:59 PM

Boris is full of shit. Mainland Greeks have no Levantine and northern Greeks plot north of many Albanians. Peloponnesians are also more western than Albanians.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:00 PM

Boris is full of shit. Mainland Greeks have no Levantine and northern Greeks plot north of many Albanians. Peloponnesians are also more western than Albanians.
Northern Greeks don’t plot north of most Albanians and on average Albanians are more western shifted

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 02:01 PM

Northern Greeks don’t plot north of most Albanians and on average Albanians are more western shifted

Northern Greeks have more Slavic though and are very different from say Crete or Sicily.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:02 PM

Northern Greeks have more Slavic though and are very different from say Crete or Sicily.
But still not more northern plotting, Albanians plot between North Italy, Tuscans and Bulgarians

Lioncourt

01-06-2018, 02:03 PM

Kosovo Albanians plot norther than any Greeks.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 02:04 PM

on average Albanians are more western shifted

How did you come to this conclusion?

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Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:04 PM

Kosovo Albanians plot norther than any Greeks.
Northern Albanians and most other Albanian groups in general does. The most northern plotting Albanian group are the Ghegs of Montenegro

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:05 PM

How did you come to this conclusion?

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Plots, and the fact that Albanians have more WHG

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 02:07 PM

Plots, and the fact that Albanians have more WHG

Well, which plots? Btw, having more WHG will make you shift northern, not western. WHG peaks in Lithuanians for example. And it’s not that Albanians have far more WHG than Greeks

Anyway, Peloponnesian and Ionian island Greeks seem more western shifted than any Albanians

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Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 02:10 PM

Aspar

01-06-2018, 02:12 PM

Btw, according to a graph that Bosniensis made, Greeks have more French, Basque and West Med components than Albanians. This will make Greeks plot more western than Albanians

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Not true at all...

Look this map, is based on eurogenes k15 :

The red are the Albanians
The blue are the Greeks

https://s9.postimg.org/tqrdmlp7z/IMG_0593-balkan.png (https://postimages.org/)

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:12 PM

Well, which plots? Btw, having more WHG will make you shift northern, not western. WHG peaks in Lithuanians for example. And it’s not that Albanians have far more WHG than Greeks

Anyway, Peloponnesian and Ionian island Greeks seem more western shifted than any Albanians

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Check out the average Albanian plots I made on K15. WHG itself does make you NW shifted usually but east Europeans have EHG as well which shifts them north. Im not sure how true it is that ionians and Peloponnesians are more western shifted, could someone make a plot of the Greek regions on K15 like what I did for Albanians? On the plot I made Tosks plotted slightly more west than Ghegs

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:14 PM

Btw, according to a graph that Bosniensis made, Greeks have more French, Basque and West Med components than Albanians. This will make Greeks plot more western than Albanians

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No way Greeks have more west Med going by what I have seen, Greeks are mainly east Med. I scored 20% West Med

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 02:15 PM

Not true at all...

Look this map, is based on eurogenes k15 :

The red are the Albanians
The blue are the Greeks

https://s9.postimg.org/tqrdmlp7z/IMG_0593-balkan.png (https://postimages.org/)

Albanians are between Tuscans and Bulgarians, while Greeks are closer to south Italians, right?

Btw, I was talking about a graph made by OP, ask him to post it here.

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safinator

01-06-2018, 02:16 PM

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 02:16 PM

No way Greeks have more west Med going by what I have seen, Greeks are mainly east Med. I scored 20% West Med

Greeks are mainly East Med but what I’m saying is that Greeks score more West Med than Albanians based on a graph made by the dude that opened this thread

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Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:18 PM

Greeks are mainly East Med but what I’m saying is that Greeks score more West Med than Albanians based on a graph made by the dude that opened this post

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Might depend on calc, but on K15 I’m sure Albanians score more

Aspar

01-06-2018, 02:18 PM

What about orange and bordeaux samples?

The orange are The Macedonians(Slavic)
Bordeaux are the Serbs
Green are the Bulgarians
Light brown are Romanians(not many samples)
Violet is a Gagauz

Aspar

01-06-2018, 02:22 PM

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 02:23 PM

Northern Greeks have more Slavic though

Because there are still Slavic communities in northern Greece. South Albanians are not less Slavic shifted, North Albanians are more Balkan and homogeneous though.

Look at this graph below. Albanians are way more Slavic (East Europe) than Greeks:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/a581ef81448518a3f1ec56c87f52b24a.jpg

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Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 02:30 PM

Albanians are between Tuscans and Bulgarians, while Greeks are closer to south Italians, right?

Btw, I was talking about a graph made by OP, ask him to post it here.

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No. South Italians and Sicilians are south of all of the Greeks on the plot. Stop with this it's a lie that the mainlanders are close to Sicily.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 02:35 PM

No. South Italians and Sicilians are south of all of the Greeks on the plot. Stop with this it's a lie that the mainlanders are close to Sicily.

There is only one south Italian sample to compare versus all those Greek ones. If you think that Apulians are not equally northern shifted than Greeks, then you’re wrong imo. When I say south Italy, I mean all of the region, not just Sicily.

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Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 02:37 PM

There is only one south Italian sample to compare versus all those Greek ones. If you think that Apulians are not equally northern shifted than Greeks, then you’re wrong imo. When I say south Italy, I mean all of the region, not just Sicily.

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Apulia plots only as far north as southern PEloponnese. No south Italians are comparable to Macedonians or thessalians.

Those Greeks on the chart overlap more Bulgaria than Sicily.

Lioncourt

01-06-2018, 02:38 PM

Macedonians are very close to Albanians and Northern Greeks, Bulgarians are halfway between Serbs and Northern Greeks. Which shows original South Slavs genetics were already good chunk native Balkan before formation of Bulgarian ethnicity. For sure Serbs are much more native than mainland Greeks are Slavic.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 02:39 PM

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 02:43 PM

Most Greeks still don't plot with Sicily or Crete.
Never said they do

Voskos

01-06-2018, 04:20 PM

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 05:33 PM

Never said they do

According to Sarno et al 2017, Northern Greeks have more "European-like" (WHG/BaltoSlavic etc) admixture than any of the Albanian samples, while the Albanians are more similar to the Peloponnese sample. All of them are, however, closer to one another than any of them are to the Sicilians, South Italians, or Aegean islanders.

https://i.imgur.com/At7zA24.png

Cristiano viejo

01-06-2018, 05:39 PM

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 05:39 PM

According to Sarno et al 2017, Northern Greeks have more "European-like" (WHG/BaltoSlavic etc) admixture than any of the Albanian samples, while the Albanians are more similar to the Peloponnese sample. All of them are, however, closer to one another than any of them are to the Sicilians, South Italians, or Aegean islanders.

[im]https://i.imgur.com/At7zA24.png[/img]
But what you’re forgetting is that the “Sardinian-like admixture” has tonnes of WHG within it and Albanians have more of this than Greeks. Albanians are more northern plotting than even northern Greeks and have more WHG on average.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 05:45 PM

But what you’re forgetting is that the “Sardinian-like admixture” has tonnes of WHG within it and Albanians have more of this than Greeks. Albanians are more northern plotting than even northern Greeks and have more WHG on average.

But if you look, the main difference between the Albanians and Greeks there is a TINY amount of Near Eastern in the Greeks compared to the Albanians (but this difference is far smaller than the difference between either one and the South Italians), and northern Greeks having more Slavic-like ancestry and less Sardinian.

This means to me the Greeks will be more NE shifted and the Albanians more NW shifted, not that the Greeks will be more southern.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 05:47 PM

But if you look, the main difference between the Albanians and Greeks there is a TINY amount of Near Eastern in the Greeks compared to the Albanians (but this difference is far smaller than the difference between either one and the South Italians), and northern Greeks having more Slavic-like ancestry and less Sardinian.

This means to me the Greeks will be more NE shifted and the Albanians more NW shifted, not that the Greeks will be more southern.
But they still plot south from Albanians is what I’m on about and that Albos have more WHG

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 06:06 PM

But they still plot south from Albanians is what I’m on about and that Albos have more WHG

Albanians have more indigenous Southern European ancestry than do Greeks. Greeks have more NE European/"Slavic" ancestry and more Anatolian than Albanians. I am unsure why this would make Albanians plot north.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 06:11 PM

Albanians have more indigenous Southern European ancestry than do Greeks. Greeks have more NE European/"Slavic" ancestry and more Anatolian than Albanians. I am unsure why this would make Albanians plot north.
Because Albanians have more WHG and EEF than Greeks do. I can make a plot on K15 of the Greek regions by using averages like what I did for Albanians if you want.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 06:18 PM

Albanians have more indigenous Southern European ancestry than do Greeks.I am unsure why this would make Albanians plot north.

How is that possible when Greeks are more Med than Albanians?

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Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 06:22 PM

How is that possible when Greeks are more Med than Albanians?

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I don't know, but on that chart, the Albanians have more Sardinian-like ancestry and less "European-like" than northern Greeks.

The Cretans and Sicilians are not more 'Med' even though they plot south of both Albanians and mainland Greeks, rather they're more Near Eastern.

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 06:26 PM

Albanians have more indigenous Southern European ancestry than do Greeks. Greeks have more NE European/"Slavic" ancestry and more Anatolian than Albanians. I am unsure why this would make Albanians plot north.

Plotting is not real science. It is essentially an attempt to simplify a multidimensional image in 2-dimensions. I think the northern plot Albanians have is a result of plotting error. What I think at least.

It almost feels like history is missing one big event to understand these discrepancies.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 06:27 PM

I don't know, but on that chart, the Albanians have more Sardinian-like ancestry and less "European-like" than northern Greeks.

And on the graph I posted earlier Greeks scored more Italy/Greece than Albanians.

And yes, both Sicilians and Cretans are more Med than Albanians.

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Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 06:28 PM

And on the graph I posted earlier Greeks scored more Italy/Greece than Albanians.

And yes, both Sicilians and Cretans are more Med than Albanians.

Because Greeks are part of the Italy/Greece reference population, and Albanians are not.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 06:41 PM

Because Greeks are part of the Italy/Greece reference population, and Albanians are not.

Okay, but here’s another thing: OP from this thread has made a graph using Albanians and Greeks and the Greek sample scored more West Med than the Albanian sample.

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Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 06:45 PM

Okay, but here’s another thing: OP from this thread has made a graph using Albanians and Greeks and the Greek sample scored more West Med than the Albanian sample.

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I have no idea. I just know that differentiating between Albanians and Greeks seems futile since they plot closer to one another than either to anyone else.

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 06:47 PM

I have no idea. I just know that differentiating between Albanians and Greeks seems futile since they plot closer to one another than either to anyone else.

I haven't seen a two nations who plot so close to each other as Albanians do to Greeks.

Could it be that Albanians are Hellenic people who failed to become a part of Greek state?

The Illyrian Warrior

01-06-2018, 06:47 PM

Albanians are most western alike Balkanites, score highest Atlanto-Med/or West Med of any Balkan group, you can compare that with any calculator, Greeks score more West Asian/Caucasus also East Med.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 06:47 PM

I haven't seen a two nations who plot so close to each other as Albanians do to Greeks.

Could it be that Albanians are Hellenic people who failed to become a part of Greek state?

British/Irish are as close as Albanians and Greeks.

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 06:50 PM

British/Irish are as close as Albanians and Greeks.

But Irish people were considered British until they split away, am I right?

I've never heard a Greek saying anything positive about Albanians, talking about them like they are Aliens.. which is ridiculous.

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 06:52 PM

I haven't seen a two nations who plot so close to each other as Albanians do to Greeks.

Could it be that Albanians are Hellenic people who failed to become a part of Greek state?

Well, I think its the opposite. I think majority of mainland Greeks have Albanian roots, at some point in history. Then Illyrians and Mycenaeans (if we believe history), migrated from the same place and about the same time. Differentiation of Mycenaean from the Balkan scale is a Western approach at disseminating and adding confusion to the Balkans. It is kind of like modern racial history, which they will have us believe is real. This nationalist approach at history is the root of so many problems in the Balkans really.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 06:53 PM

Albanians are most western alike Balkanites, score highest Atlanto-Med/or West Med of any Balkan group, you can compare that with any calculator, Greeks score more West Asian/Caucasus also East Med.

It will be interesting to compare that, because I feel that Greeks score more Atlanto-Med and West Med than Albanians. At least according to what I’ve seen, Greeks scored more French, Basque and Iberian than Albanians. Ask Bosniensis for the graph

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safinator

01-06-2018, 06:53 PM

I haven't seen a two nations who plot so close to each other as Albanians do to Greeks.

You need to look at your nation and you will reach the conclusion you were wrong from the start.

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 06:56 PM

You need to look at your nation and you will reach the conclusion you were wrong from the start.

Bosniaks and Serbs are divided for religious reasons so I suppose that's what are you shooting at.

But Albanians and Greeks never said anything similar for themselves, both look at each other as something completely different even if they are close to each other like Bosniaks are close to Serbs.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 06:58 PM

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 06:59 PM

But Irish people were considered British until they split away, am I right?

I've never heard a Greek saying anything positive about Albanians, talking about them like they are Aliens.. which is ridiculous.

No. Irish are not from Great Britain. British is only Scottish, Welsh, and English.

The Illyrian Warrior

01-06-2018, 07:00 PM

It will be interesting to compare that, because I feel that Greeks score more Atlanto-Med and West Med than Albanians. At least according to what I’ve seen, Greeks scored more French, Basque and Iberian than Albanians. Ask Bosniensis for the graph

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Atlanto-Med.
http://i68.tinypic.com/30hrh36.jpg
Peaks in Sardinia, Basque and on Albanians in Balkans, in eurogenes and other calculators I noticed the same pattern - Albanians score highest West Med, Atlantic compared to others like Greeks, you score high Caucasus, East Med however.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 07:01 PM

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:02 PM

It will be interesting to compare that, because I feel that Greeks score more Atlanto-Med and West Med than Albanians. At least according to what I’ve seen, Greeks scored more French, Basque and Iberian than Albanians. Ask Bosniensis for the graph

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I doubt that Greeks have more Atlantic as thats a more northern component and I always see Albos getting more. As for west Med idk.

safinator

01-06-2018, 07:02 PM

Bosniaks and Serbs are divided for religious reasons so I suppose that's what are you shooting at.

But Albanians and Greeks never said anything similar for themselves, both look at each other as something completely different even if they are close to each other like Bosniaks are close to Serbs.

Exactly and you could think of Macedonians and Bulgarians, Spaniards and Portuguese , Swedes and Norwegians and tons of other countries.

There is some similarity but overall not that big.

http://pichoster.net/images/2016/12/26/5jbkEdu.png

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 07:03 PM

I don't know why people are trying so hard to separate Albanians from Greeks when Greeks are CLOSER TO ALBANIANS than to anyone else. It makes no sense.

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 07:04 PM

I don't know why people are trying so hard to separate Albanians from Greeks when Greeks are CLOSER TO ALBANIANS than to anyone else. It makes no sense.

When modern Greek nation was formed Albanians were not part of propaganda apparently.

People are easily manipulated.

For example, nobody hates Albanians today more than Orthodox Serbs, but just few hundred years ago... nobody intermarried with Albanians more than Serbs.

etc...

Hulu

01-06-2018, 07:05 PM

Exactly and you could think of Macedonians and Bulgarians, Spaniards and Portuguese , Swedes and Norwegians and tons of other countries.

There is some similarity but overall not that big.

All those you mentioned have similar languages as well while albanians and greeks dont, which makes the division even bigger.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 07:06 PM

When modern Greek nation was formed Albanians were not part of propaganda apparently.

People are easily manipulated.

For example, nobody hates Albanians today more than Orthodox Serbs, but just few hundred years ago... nobody intermarried with Albanians more than Serbs.

etc...

The other factor is Albanians and Greeks are heavily mixed with one another in both directions. Only Aegean islanders are removed from this cluster, and are instead closer to central and southern Italians.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:08 PM

The other factor is Albanians and Greeks are heavily mixed with one another in both directions. Only Aegean islanders are removed from this cluster, and are instead closer to central and southern Italians.
How? I don’t see how a Gheg from the highlands would have any Greek ancestry

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 07:09 PM

When modern Greek nation was formed Albanians were not part of propaganda apparently.

People are easily manipulated.

For example, nobody hates Albanians today more than Orthodox Serbs, but just few hundred years ago... nobody intermarried with Albanians more than Serbs.

etc...

Albanians were part of propaganda. Except that they had the idea that Albanians need to be Greek. lol They continue with this same propaganda. Even-though its obvious that it is they that need to be Albanian.

safinator

01-06-2018, 07:09 PM

How? I don’t see how a Gheg from the highlands would have any Greek ancestry

Besides autosomal maps tell nothing about that but we should look at IBD sharing.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:12 PM

Besides autosomal maps tell nothing about that but we should look at IBD sharing.
True, I remember a study which showed Albanians being closest to Montenegrins when it came to IBD sharing

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 07:13 PM

Atlanto-Med.
http://i68.tinypic.com/30hrh36.jpg
Peaks in Sardinia, Basque and on Albanians in Balkans, in eurogenes and other calculators I noticed the same pattern - Albanians score highest West Med, Atlantic compared to others like Greeks, you score high Caucasus, East Med however.

According to the graph you posted, European Turks score as much as Atlanto Med as the rest. And Albanians scoring more Atlanto-Med than Italians? I doubt it. What’s the source of the graph?

Just check Bosniensis’ graph that I posted above so that you can see what I’m talking about. And Albanians score as much as Caucasus as Greeks do, despite that 15% of your country is not Pontians, as is the case in Greece :D

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Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:19 PM

According to the graph you posted, European Turks score as much as Atlanto Med as the rest. And Albanians scoring more Atlanto-Med than Italians? I doubt it. What’s the source of the graph?

Just check Bosniensis’ graph that I posted above so that you can see what I’m talking about. And Albanians score as much as Caucasus as Greeks do, despite that 15% of your country is not Pontians, as is the case in Greece :D

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That graph showed Albanians with more West Med. As for Caucasus I only get 3.10% on K36.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 07:22 PM

That graph showed Albanians with more West Med. As for Caucasus I only get 3.10% on K36.

Yes, I already mentioned above that it shows Albanians as more West Med, but it shows that Greeks are closer to French, Basques and other Iberians than Albanians are, therefore him saying that Albanians are more Atlanto-Med doesn’t make sense

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Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:23 PM

Yes, I already mentioned above that it shows Albanians as more West Med, but it shows that Greeks are closer to French, Basques and other Iberians than Albanians are, therefore him saying that Albanians are more Atlanto-Med doesn’t make sense

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It doesn’t show Greeks as being closer to those populations, it just shows that Greeks score a component named after those groups.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 07:25 PM

It doesn’t show Greeks as being closer to those populations, it just shows that Greeks score a component named after those groups.

Which is probably the Atlanto-Med component

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Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:27 PM

Which is probably the Atlanto-Med component

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Idk, the map posted showed Albanians scoring the most Atlanto-Med after Basques, it might be a EEF component

Laberia

01-06-2018, 07:40 PM

Albanians were part of propaganda. Except that they had the idea that Albanians need to be Greek. lol They continue with this same propaganda. Even-though its obvious that it is they that need to be Albanian.

Lëre ça merresh me atë, është troll.

The Illyrian Warrior

01-06-2018, 07:41 PM

Greeks do not score any higher Caucasus than Albanians do. See the chart from Sarno et al which is peer reviewed.

Can you quote the part? I'm really interested to see.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:43 PM

Can you quote the part? I'm really interested to see.
Im not sure how accurate that chart even is, but Greeks did have similar amounts of Caucasus

The Illyrian Warrior

01-06-2018, 07:44 PM

According to the graph you posted, European Turks score as much as Atlanto Med as the rest. And Albanians scoring more Atlanto-Med than Italians? I doubt it. What’s the source of the graph?

Just check Bosniensis’ graph that I posted above so that you can see what I’m talking about. And Albanians score as much as Caucasus as Greeks do, despite that 15% of your country is not Pontians, as is the case in Greece :D

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No they don't, Caucasus stems not from Pontians, it came from ancient times via Steppe people mostly.

The Illyrian Warrior

01-06-2018, 07:47 PM

Im not sure how accurate that chart even is, but Greeks did have similar amounts of Caucasus

Have you seen it, I was interested to see as this is first time I'd see that Albos score similar amount Caucasus as Greeks, every single result I seen was lower Caucasus and higher Atlanto-Med on Albanians.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 07:47 PM

Im not sure how accurate that chart even is, but Greeks did have similar amounts of Caucasus

More accurate than anything anyone posted here. Anyway yellow component is Caucasus and it is roughly homogenous across all the Albanians, Italians, and Greeks.

https://i.imgur.com/mjgdi0P.png

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:49 PM

Have you seen it, I was interested to see as this is first time I'd see that Albos score similar amount Caucasus as Greeks, every single result I seen was lower Caucasus and higher Atlanto-Med on Albanians.
Yh. Same here, it may be due to a lower sample size of Albanians or that it’s not the best of charts

Anthr0

01-06-2018, 07:51 PM

Can you quote the part? I'm really interested to see.

On ancestryDNA Greeks score the highest Caucasus, 2nd are Italians. Albanians the least. Same on 23andme, some Greeks score MENA/Caucasus. Albanians in general don't.

Gedmatch scores represent more ancient origins in large part and pre historic populations.

Albanians score more Italy / Greece and East Europe on ancestryDNA. And less Caucasus.

East Europe is a Northern component and not Slavic, they have put Albanians under this cluster. The Southern shifted Albanians will score highest Italy/Greece and even more than Italians or Greeks themselves while Northern shifted Albanians will get more East Europe.

On other tests they score 100% Balkan.

Many mainland Greeks are more Northern shifted than Tosks actually.

Atlanto Meds are also a tall race and many Northern Albanians belong to this race but in facial features are Dinaricised.

Atlanto Meds were Megalithic sea people from the Near East that invaded Europe.

I don't have time to debunk other claims here but I will do this later maybe.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:52 PM

More accurate than anything anyone posted here. Anyway yellow component is Caucasus and it is roughly homogenous across all the Albanians, Italians, and Greeks.

[ig]https://i.imgur.com/mjgdi0P.png[/img]
Kl but it isn’t the best or at least that’s my opinion. This chart is probably more accurate for example:
https://s17.postimg.org/ulryauw33/7_A71_B20_B-1_B6_E-4_FBC-_A83_B-930_B5_D26_C132.jpg

ukrofrench

01-06-2018, 07:53 PM

The difference is that Bosnians fuck both of them

The Illyrian Warrior

01-06-2018, 07:56 PM

Yh. Same here, it may be due to a lower sample size of Albanians or that it’s not the best of charts

Just what I thought, depend of taken samples and quality (quantity more precisely), we already have enough samples here (from gathered kits) to make a comparison, from all tested people I see always the same pattern I previously said.

catgeorge

01-06-2018, 07:59 PM

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 08:04 PM

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 08:04 PM

On ancestryDNA Greeks score the highest Caucasus, 2nd are Italians. Albanians the least. Same on 23andme, some Greeks score MENA/Caucasus. Albanians in general don't.

I don't know how much Caucasus most southern Italians score but I know I have seen some in the 20%s, but most Sicilians i see score more Middle East rather than Caucasus. Greeks score Caucasus but not much Middle East.

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 08:05 PM

Lëre ça merresh me atë, është troll.

Nuk jan troll ata qe lexojn

Wrong

01-06-2018, 08:12 PM

As we can see from this graph, the Greeks score more French, Basque and Iberian than Albanians, but one Albanian sample scores more West Med than the Greek.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/68c794dafef5da02a2150c459ea99c52.jpg

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That's only one sample tested in the Greek and Gheg Albanian samples.

I score higher Northwest Euro than them.

That graph needs to be deleted and remade with 50+ samples of every ethnicity.

Aspar

01-06-2018, 08:12 PM

We’re talking about the Atlanto-med component in autosomal admixture lolThat guy is not very smart.
But he adds up with the hate...

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Anthr0

01-06-2018, 08:29 PM

They are very far from Atlanto Med the ones in Greece anyway.

I don't understand this pseudo science where they are clearly dinaric but now to give them a cuddle have made them atlanto med. We need experts here not riff raff.

I have knowledge in this and Ive read many books regarding these things from various known experts but its obvious you havent. They are Dinaric in facial features but not in other physical characterics

Dinarics occur from mixing alpine with meds, and in the North a lot of times that med strain is Atlanto Med which gives many Dinarics the tall height at the same time.

In the south they are not as Dinaric but rather more Alpine, so now youre just talking nonsense or you dont know what Dinaric is.

It affects the facial features mostly, their skull becomes brachyphalic , the forehead broad, the jaw narrow, the nose convexed and entirely Med.. its a mix of alpine and meditarrean features.

The one who is riff raffing is you.

Voskos

01-06-2018, 08:59 PM

Bosniacs, Croats and Montenegrins share more IBD ancestry with Albanian than Greeks do. I don't know why people overemphasize the same stuff over and over for a bunch of nations(Balkanic nations including Greece) that have been intermarrying in the last 2000 years.

Voskos

01-06-2018, 09:13 PM

How is that possible when Greeks are more Med than Albanians?

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albanians score more west med than Greeks in most tests and less est med.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 09:14 PM

albanians score more west med than Greeks in most tests and less est med.

But Greeks and Albanians plot closer to one another than either one does to anyone else, overall. Exceptions being the Aegean islanders (closer to Italy) and Macedonia/Thrace/Thessaly (closer to Bulgaria).

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 09:20 PM

albanians score more west med than Greeks in most tests and less est med.

In which tests?

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Voskos

01-06-2018, 09:22 PM

In which tests?

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eurogenes k15, mdlp etc.on average they get higher west med and higher atlantid scores.

Voskos

01-06-2018, 09:23 PM

But Greeks and Albanians plot closer to one another than either one does to anyone else, overall. Exceptions being the Aegean islanders (closer to Italy) and Macedonia/Thrace/Thessaly (closer to Bulgaria).

often tuscany is in the same cluster for both.

Lavrentis

01-06-2018, 09:24 PM

eurogenes k15, mdlp etc.on average they get higher west med and higher atlantid scores.

I haven’t compared results so from calculators so I can’t know

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wvwvw

01-06-2018, 09:34 PM

No. South Italians and Sicilians are south of all of the Greeks on the plot. Stop with this it's a lie that the mainlanders are close to Sicily.

South Italy is not just Sicily and Calabria.

catgeorge

01-06-2018, 09:52 PM

The nonsense continues.

These girls look Slavic they would not pass in Greece. They miss Atlanto Med features - this is straight from Yamnaya. They fit in Lithuania rather than Ireland. Stop the nonsense. Autosomally across many 23andme results Albanians score high East Europe whereas Greeks barely score 1%

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/39200000/Albanian-people-albanians-albania-39285970-500-333.jpg

This is your Greek chick

http://i41.tinypic.com/33dbhus.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/s24htj.jpg

https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/6178802123_b4b70aa0a8_b.jpg

Nonsense after nonsense

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 10:12 PM

The nonsense continues.

These girls look Slavic they would not pass in Greece. They miss Atlanto Med features - this is straight from Yamnaya. They fit in Lithuania rather than Ireland. Stop the nonsense. Autosomally across many 23andme results Albanians score high East Europe whereas Greeks barely score 1%

[im]http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/39200000/Albanian-people-albanians-albania-39285970-500-333.jpg[/img]

This is your Greek chick

[mg]http://i41.tinypic.com/33dbhus.jpg[/img]

[imhttp://i42.tinypic.com/s24htj.jpg[/img]

img]https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/6178802123_b4b70aa0a8_b.jpg[/img]

Nonsense after nonsense
Please post evidence that the average Albanian scores high east Euro on 23andme, on average Albanians don’t even get 5%
https://s17.postimg.org/r9y8v7e9b/833_F576_F-4_DF9-4030-8039-1_B19489_D8841.png

catgeorge

01-06-2018, 10:18 PM

Please post evidence that the average Albanian scores high east Euro on 23andme, on average Albanians don’t even get 5%

I have seen plenty even some posted here where it exceeds 15%

You can use any calculator you like to massage any outcome you like but at the end of the day Albanians score triple East Euro than Greeks. These are your typical 23andme Greek autosomals

http://i57.tinypic.com/1znsiv5.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/eg362g.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2ikyv4.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/2llncir.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/28umoac.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/ftk9k1.jpg

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 10:22 PM

I have seen plenty even some posted here where it exceeds 15%

You can use any calculator you like to massage any outcome you like but at the end of the day Albanians score triple East Euro than Greeks. These are your typical 23andme Greek autosomals

[im]http://i57.tinypic.com/1znsiv5.jpg[/img]

[im]http://i61.tinypic.com/eg362g.jpg[/img]

[im]http://i62.tinypic.com/2ikyv4.jpg[/img]

[im]http://i60.tinypic.com/2llncir.jpg[/img]

[im]http://i57.tinypic.com/28umoac.jpg[/img]

[im]http://i60.tinypic.com/ftk9k1.jpg[/img]
BS, post them then. Albanians don’t even get 2% on average.
https://s17.postimg.org/r9y8v7e9b/833_F576_F-4_DF9-4030-8039-1_B19489_D8841.png

catgeorge

01-06-2018, 10:24 PM

BS, post them then. Albanians don’t even get 2% on average.
https://s17.postimg.org/r9y8v7e9b/833_F576_F-4_DF9-4030-8039-1_B19489_D8841.png

Well start a thread and ask everyone to post their results - I know Ylla's is close to mine results but put it out there... lets have a look if you want "proof"

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 10:32 PM

Well start a thread and ask everyone to post their results - I know Ylla's is close to mine results but put it out there... lets have a look if you want "proof"
Fine will do so, I knew that you had no evidence anyways

catgeorge

01-06-2018, 10:34 PM

Fine will do so, I knew that you had no evidence anyways

I know what I saw - I am not going to save your 23andme results who gives a fuck really, but go on start a thread - Yamnaya Dinaric boy.

Lioncourt

01-06-2018, 10:36 PM

I haven't seen a two nations who plot so close to each other as Albanians do to Greeks.

Could it be that Albanians are Hellenic people who failed to become a part of Greek state?

Romanians and Bulgarians plot even closer, actually they plot together, only a few Bulgarians who plot on the fringes of Greek cluster drag the average Bulgarian cluster a bit more south.

Still Romanians and Bulgarians are different people culturally and speak different languages. Reasons for close clustering are ancient.

wvwvw

01-06-2018, 10:36 PM

Yes. Greeks are Hellenes, Albos are Illyrians and Bulgarians are Thracians/Dacians. Therein lies the difference. Don't believe me? Ask Bosniensis the authority on such things.

wvwvw

01-06-2018, 10:37 PM

Romanians and Bulgarians plot even closer, actually they plot together, only a few Bulgarians who plot on the fringes of Greek cluster drag the average Bulgarian cluster a bit more south.

Still Romanians and Bulgarians are different people culturally and speak different languages. Reasons for close clustering are ancient.

I'd say between South Serbs and Romanians.

Lioncourt

01-06-2018, 10:39 PM

Also Romanians and Bulgarians look alike much more than Albanians and Greeks do.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 10:39 PM

often tuscany is in the same cluster for both.

Tuscans are like a "western" version of both Albanians and Greeks.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 10:40 PM

I know what I saw - I am not going to save your 23andme results who gives a fuck really, but go on start a thread - Yamnaya Dinaric boy.
I don’t care if you save them tbh. I made the thread btw

wvwvw

01-06-2018, 10:41 PM

Tuscans are like a "western" version of both Albanians and Greeks.

He means as Northern as Tuscans.

Wrong

01-06-2018, 10:42 PM

I have seen plenty even some posted here where it exceeds 15%

You can use any calculator you like to massage any outcome you like but at the end of the day Albanians score triple East Euro than Greeks. These are your typical 23andme Greek autosomals

http://i57.tinypic.com/1znsiv5.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/eg362g.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2ikyv4.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/2llncir.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/28umoac.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/ftk9k1.jpg
I score 0% East Euro on 23andme, while all of these Greek results have it, except one.

What is the point of posting this?

wvwvw

01-06-2018, 10:45 PM

I score 0% East Euro on 23andme, while all of these Greek results have it, except one.

What is the point of posting this?

I score 0% too. That's because East Europe (as is Middle eastern) is already factored in in the 'Balkan'. But yes many Greeks get around 0,1-2% East Europe.

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 11:01 PM

Raizen

01-06-2018, 11:03 PM

Because there are still Slavic communities in northern Greece. South Albanians are not less Slavic shifted, North Albanians are more Balkan and homogeneous though.

Look at this graph below. Albanians are way more Slavic (East Europe) than Greeks:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/a581ef81448518a3f1ec56c87f52b24a.jpg

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Why portugal score so high british and scandinavia? And how albania score more slavic than germany

Sikeliot

01-06-2018, 11:05 PM

If Greeks were not included in "Italy/Greece" sample, and it was just an Italy sample, Greeks would be scoring East Europe as high as Albanians do.

wvwvw

01-06-2018, 11:08 PM

Wrong

01-06-2018, 11:09 PM

Autosomal is autism, changes every generation. IBD-sharing tells more.

Let haplogroups, both y- and mtDNA speak for itself, plenty of accuracy there for tracking ancestry.

Voskos

01-06-2018, 11:23 PM

Autosomal is autism, changes every generation. IBD-sharing tells more.

Let haplogroups, both y- and mtDNA speak for itself, plenty of accuracy there for tracking ancestry.

im pretty sure in IBD sharing even cypriots and cretans will come closer to Balkan slavs for example than to spain and italy. nothing wrong with being part eastern euro.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 11:25 PM

Not sure if it helps at all but if we assume it is Epirotes who are most similar to Albanians among the Greeks, I was able to rank using GEDmatch the Greek regions from most to least close to Sicily. Epirus is closer to Sicily than Thessaly or Macedonia are, so I presume Albania would plot SOUTH of northern Greece.

Closest to Sicily were the islands closest to the Turkish coast like Ikaria, Chios, Kalymnos as well as Andros. Crete was not as close as expected.
Albanians plot north of Greeks pca plots show this. Make a plot of the northern Greek average (I could do it if you can’t) on K15 and compare it to the Albanian ones, the only Albanian cluster it may be more northern than is the south and central Albanian clusters the other ones are more northern than north Greece imo

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 11:27 PM

im pretty sure in IBD sharing even cypriots and cretans will come closer to Balkan slavs for example than to spain and italy. nothing wrong with being part eastern euro.
Yh “Europeans who live in neighboring regions share between two and 12 genetic common ancestors from the last 1, 500 years, and near the tune of 100 genetic common ancestors from the last 2,500 years” https://www.genomeweb.com/archive/modern-europeans-share-number-recent-genetic-ancestors

Wrong

01-06-2018, 11:28 PM

im pretty sure in IBD sharing even cypriots and cretans will come closer to Balkan slavs for example than to spain and italy. nothing wrong with being part eastern euro.
Yeah. There is no shame in that, hell, we have been neighbors exchanging goods for more than 1500 years.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 11:31 PM

Autosomal is autism, changes every generation. IBD-sharing tells more.

Let haplogroups, both y- and mtDNA speak for itself, plenty of accuracy there for tracking ancestry.
Albanians are shown to be the most homogenous in Europe according to studies. “By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.” http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Anthr0

01-06-2018, 11:49 PM

im pretty sure in IBD sharing even cypriots and cretans will come closer to Balkan slavs for example than to spain and italy. nothing wrong with being part eastern euro.

Autosomal has been quite accurate for me , scored 100% native Balkan on most of these tests while south slavs in these same tests score north slavic / east europe / north west europe which i dont and id probably still score high east euro on ancestrydna .. that alone should tell you something. Also when Coon studied Albanians he concluded they are pretty much unchanged since bronze age for the most part

Gencove, geneplaza, myorigins, 23andme, dnaland etc. These are tests that are actually good at picking east euro / north west euro ancestry , especially myorigins 2 since it goes 2000 years back , rather than ancestrydna but people just seem too autistic to understand this ..

All of my relatives ydna are also paleo Balkan, same for mtdna

Nothing that indicates being part east euro here, in fact, i have a higher genetic similarity with west euro countries and this is mostly due to the Ilyrian hallstatt culture from the bronze age and also north east italy which Coon concluded or believed were of Ilyrian origin and which genetic studies seem to indicate they are

I just noticed people who project this foreign ancestry are people who are mixed themselves usually so they cant leave us pure albos alone, some major insecurities.. dont know why people have so much against people that are less recebtly mixed, if we go far enough back we are all mixed but itsjust i noticed people here project it majorly onto others

Anthr0

01-06-2018, 11:53 PM

Albanians are shown to be the most homogenous in Europe according to studies. “By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.” http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Thats because many Albanians havent mixed with others that much, also Albanians have been cross breeding to some extent , the marriage system designed actually doesnt provent inbreeding but rather produces it more... also someof those tests mostly were done of isolated people in the north or kosovars, the south is supposedly more heteregenous accordibg to anthropology studies but we dont have genetic studies to confirm this , some ghegs are really unchanged , some minor mixed

wvwvw

01-06-2018, 11:54 PM

Autosomal has been quite accurate for me , scored 100% native Balkan on most of these tests while south slavs in these same tests score north slavic / east europe / north west europe which i dont and id probably still score high east euro on ancestrydna .. that alone should tell you something. Also when Coon studied Albanians he concluded they are pretty much unchanged since bronze age for the most part

Gencove, geneplaza, myorigins, 23andme, dnaland etc. These are tests that are actually good at picking east euro / north west euro ancestry , especially myorigins 2 since it goes 2000 years back , rather than ancestrydna but people just seem too autistic to understand this ..

All of my relatives ydna are also paleo Balkan, same for mtdna

Nothing that indicates being part east euro here, in fact, i have a higher genetic similarity with west euro countries and this is mostly due to the Ilyrian hallstatt culture from the bronze age and also north east italy which Coon concluded or believed were of Ilyrian origin and which genetic studies seem to indicate they are

I just noticed people who project this foreign ancestry are people who are mixed themselves usually so they cant leave us pure albos alone, some major insecurities.. dont know why people have so much against people that are less recebtly mixed, if we go far enough back we are all mixed but itsjust i noticed people here project it majorly onto others

Scoring 100% Balkan doesn't mean you are Paleo-balkan, especially when in the Balkan samples are included MODERN Albanians, MODERN Greeks, MODERN Bulgarians, MODERN Romanians or MODERN South Slavs.

catgeorge

01-07-2018, 12:01 AM

Voskos

01-07-2018, 12:11 AM

Autosomal has been quite accurate for me , scored 100% native Balkan on most of these tests while south slavs in these same tests score north slavic / east europe / north west europe which i dont and id probably still score high east euro on ancestrydna .. that alone should tell you something. Also when Coon studied Albanians he concluded they are pretty much unchanged since bronze age for the most part

Gencove, geneplaza, myorigins, 23andme, dnaland etc. These are tests that are actually good at picking east euro / north west euro ancestry , especially myorigins 2 since it goes 2000 years back , rather than ancestrydna but people just seem too autistic to understand this ..

All of my relatives ydna are also paleo Balkan, same for mtdna

Nothing that indicates being part east euro here, in fact, i have a higher genetic similarity with west euro countries and this is mostly due to the Ilyrian hallstatt culture from the bronze age and also north east italy which Coon concluded or believed were of Ilyrian origin and which genetic studies seem to indicate they are

I just noticed people who project this foreign ancestry are people who are mixed themselves usually so they cant leave us pure albos alone, some major insecurities.. dont know why people have so much against people that are less recebtly mixed, if we go far enough back we are all mixed but itsjust i noticed people here project it majorly onto others

wrong. theres a lot of non native haplogroups in both greece(including islands) and albania that suggest influx of foreigners.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 12:13 AM

You see this is the problem with you Yamnayas as you have no proof.

There is no evidence of Albanians in Europe pre 13th century.
Oh Lordy lord. I have already explained to you that linguistic analysis proves the dating of the Albanians and that recording doesn’t, the dinosaurs werent recorded 65 million years ago but they still lived 65 million years ago. You really do have to be pretty dumb to believe that the date of recordance is the same as the date of origin also Albanians were first recorded in around 1100 which is the 12th century and were already a fully formed ethnic group, also I just posted evidence based on genetic analysis. Btw aren’t you R1b-Z2103, you do know that it was found in the Yamnaya right..

Alessio

01-07-2018, 12:13 AM

Albanians are Muslimized

kleenex

01-07-2018, 12:32 AM

Albanians have more indigenous Southern European ancestry than do Greeks. Greeks have more NE European/"Slavic" ancestry and more Anatolian than Albanians. I am unsure why this would make Albanians plot north.

What do you mean by indigenous Southern European ancestry? I'm a G2A Messinian whose paternal line is from the mountains of Western Messinia. I would lay a bet that my paternal line has been in Greece pre Bronze.

Sikeliot

01-07-2018, 12:33 AM

What do you mean by indigenous Southern European ancestry? I'm a G2A Messinian whose paternal line is from the mountains of Western Messinia. I would lay a bet that my paternal line has been in Greece pre Bronze.

More Sardinian-like I mean.

Voskos

01-07-2018, 12:42 AM

Scoring 100% Balkan doesn't mean you are Paleo-balkan, especially when in the Balkan samples are included MODERN Albanians, MODERN Greeks, MODERN Bulgarians, MODERN Romanians or MODERN South Slavs.

the guy scores 100% of a reference that consists of Greeks and Italians, yet he thinks he's less mixed than them. some people are really uneducated.

Bosniensis

01-07-2018, 08:14 AM

Yes. Greeks are Hellenes, Albos are Illyrians and Bulgarians are Thracians/Dacians. Therein lies the difference. Don't believe me? Ask Bosniensis the authority on such things.

https://i.imgur.com/DoAns3z.png

Lavrentis

01-07-2018, 10:40 AM

I just compared 5 Greek and 5 Albanian kits on Gedmatch and the Greeks score more West Med.

Greek average: 109,85

Albanian average: 108,25

Of course, it's just 5 kits. We need proffesional studies to reach conclusions.

Ujku

01-07-2018, 10:44 AM

You see this is the problem with you Yamnayas as you have no proof.

There is no evidence of Albanians in Europe pre 13th century.

Of course not , that is when we came in Europe through Sicily by Arabian traders that enslaved us in the Kavkaz.

Ujku

01-07-2018, 10:45 AM

Lavrentis

01-07-2018, 10:46 AM

Why are you so obsessed with West med?

I’m not, I simply compared some kits you retard

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Ujku

01-07-2018, 11:11 AM

I’m not, I simply compared some kits you retard

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Ασε τις προσβολες σε εμενα πιτσιρικο μην σου κανω την μαπα κρεας.

Lavrentis

01-07-2018, 11:15 AM

Ασε τις προσβολες σε εμενα πιτσιρικα μην σου κανω την μαπα κρεας.

Απο το PC; Προσεχε μην σου βγει καμια κλανια στο μεταξυ

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Geni

01-07-2018, 01:06 PM

Of course not , that is when we came in Europe through Sicily by Arabian traders that enslaved us in the Kavkaz.

:lol:

Dibran

01-07-2018, 01:10 PM

:lol:

The sad thing is they believe this shit lol.

Bosniensis

01-07-2018, 01:24 PM

The sad thing is they believe this shit lol.

Some people believe cause they ask for evidence of your presence before 11th century.

For example: Višeslav was a ruler in Roman Empire 780 A.D while there are no written evidences of any Albanian rulers in 8th century.

Albanians need to find more evidences of their presence not just DNA or Greeks, Serbs will continue to dispute your presence before 10th century.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 01:42 PM

Some people believe cause they ask for evidence of your presence before 11th century.

For example: Višeslav was a ruler in Roman Empire 780 A.D while there are no written evidences of any Albanian rulers in 8th century.

Albanians need to find more evidences of their presence not just DNA or Greeks, Serbs will continue to dispute your presence before 10th century.
Evidence of our presence is our language for example analysis of loan words and other things in our language show that it was present in the Balkans before Slavic migrations, I already explained to catgeorge how the date that a group was recorded isn’t the same as the date that they originated.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 01:51 PM

Some people believe cause they ask for evidence of your presence before 11th century.

For example: Višeslav was a ruler in Roman Empire 780 A.D while there are no written evidences of any Albanian rulers in 8th century.

Albanians need to find more evidences of their presence not just DNA or Greeks, Serbs will continue to dispute your presence before 10th century.

So in search for evidence since you can't find any you decide to construct an elaborate lie of an origin story that is literally not backed by any serious science? Making up your own deluded stories is not called evidence. Even genetics still proves Albanians are more native than your people. So a record doesnt need to be drawn up to prove Albanian nativity.

Bosniensis

01-07-2018, 01:52 PM

Dibran

01-07-2018, 01:52 PM

Evidence of our presence is our language for example analysis of loan words and other things in our language show that it was present in the Balkans before Slavic migrations, I already explained to catgeorge how the date that a group was recorded isn’t the same as the date that they originated.

They are uneducated ethno-radical faggots. They would be laughed off stage in any serious public forum.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 01:54 PM

Why does it matter really?

Slavs are on Balkans at least 1500 years... isn't that enough to be called native?

Come on...

Oh you don;t like it now do you?

Fact still is fact. Maybe you shouldnt run your mouth spreading bullshit about Albanians. When you know they walked these lands before you. Even if you don't wan't to admit it.

Bosniensis

01-07-2018, 02:06 PM

Oh you don;t like it now do you?

Fact still is fact. Maybe you shouldnt run your mouth spreading bullshit about Albanians. When you know they walked these lands before you. Even if you don't wan't to admit it.

The fact is that I,J haplogroups are the oldest in Europe both I and J spread over the Balkans, so my very distant ancestor was here Long before your E or R ancestor.

Voskos

01-07-2018, 02:07 PM

Απο το PC; Προσεχε μην σου βγει καμια κλανια στο μεταξυ

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ujku is a specialist in fighting people over the internet.pay attention he has some really developped moves

Dibran

01-07-2018, 02:10 PM

The fact is that I,J haplogroups are the oldest in Europe both I and J spread over the Balkans, so my very distant ancestor was here Long before your E or R ancestor.

Well no. You’re L621 under I2a1-Din. It’s young and spread from Poland in the Middle Ages. If you were I2a2a then your bs story would make sense. But I2a1 was in north Europe before coming to the Balkans. Context is everything. Which proves my point. You know fuck all about genetics.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 02:13 PM

The fact is that I,J haplogroups are the oldest in Europe both I and J spread over the Balkans, so my very distant ancestor was here Long before your E or R ancestor.
E was in Europe at the same time as J or maybe even before

Bosniensis

01-07-2018, 02:14 PM

Well no. You’re L621 under I2a1-Din. It’s young and spread from Poland in the Middle Ages. If you were I2a2a then your bs story would make sense. But I2a1 was in north Europe before coming to the Balkans. Context is everything. Which proves my point. You know fuck all about genetics.

Yes it's young but it split from older I2, that older one also split from even older etc... you can go like that up to I M170

Haplogroup I m170 is my distant ancestor... and it's from Balkan... you can say it was many thousand years ago.. but who cares.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gysum13GQwE/maxresdefault.jpg

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 02:14 PM

Bosniensis

01-07-2018, 02:17 PM

Yep, I2a-Din expanded into the Balkans during the Middle Ages but has origin from NW Europe

People migrated. I2 is European haplogrup and was present on Balkans before E and J (cause first I migrations came through Balkans).

People moved to NW Europe than came back to Balkans in Middle ages.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 02:19 PM

Yes it's young but it split from older I2, that older one also split from even older etc... you can go like that up to I M170

Haplogroup I m170 is my distant ancestor... and it's from Balkan... you can say it was many thousand years ago.. but who cares.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gysum13GQwE/maxresdefault.jpg

Well no. Because if he was your ancestor you wouldn’t be L621. Get it? If you go far enough all haplogroups are related. So I guess we’re all natives. See how retarded that sounds?

Context is everything. You descend from L621. Not I-m170. L621 was in North and northwest Europe. It formed there. And never knew the balkans until it arrived from Poland.

I2a2a is The I that stayed and evolved in the Balkans. Unless your I2a2a your claims are baseless.

Bosniensis

01-07-2018, 02:23 PM

Well no. Because if he was your ancestor you wouldn’t be L621. Get it? If you go far enough all haplogroups are related. So I guess we’re all natives. See how retarded that sounds?

Context is everything. You descend from L621. Not I-m170. L621 was in North and northwest Europe. It formed there. And never knew the balkans until it arrived from Poland.

I2a2a is The I that stayed and evolved in the Balkans. Unless your I2a2a your claims are baseless.

What is the distance (in years) between I2a1a (Sardinian) and I2a1b (South Slavic)... 7000 years right? I am not sure....

The Illyrian Warrior

01-07-2018, 04:04 PM

That's only one sample tested in the Greek and Gheg Albanian samples.

I score higher Northwest Euro than them.

That graph needs to be deleted and remade with 50+ samples of every ethnicity.

Similar, I have much higher Northwest Euro & same Northeast amount like Ghegs but I do not come into final conclusion just by looking on one chart made by Bosnies like some do, I like to see and compare on all calculators and see the difference from all calculators. And on all calculators I seen high Atlantic or West Med in Albanians, I for instance have high Atlantic.

Laberia

01-07-2018, 04:14 PM

Some people believe cause they ask for evidence of your presence before 11th century.

For example: Višeslav was a ruler in Roman Empire 780 A.D while there are no written evidences of any Albanian rulers in 8th century.

Albanians need to find more evidences of their presence not just DNA or Greeks, Serbs will continue to dispute your presence before 10th century.

And how many times you want to repeat here "Ducagini d'Arbania" (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?191059-Origin-of-Albanians&p=3968832&highlight=Hammond#post3968832)?
BTW, servs? When we will have in this forum an serious thread about this people? At least recently two threads started one by me and an other by Vlatko failed. Enigma continue.

Laberia

01-07-2018, 04:18 PM

Evidence of our presence is our language for example analysis of loan words and other things in our language show that it was present in the Balkans before Slavic migrations, I already explained to catgeorge how the date that a group was recorded isn’t the same as the date that they originated.

No, you have to understand that they want an Illyrian inscription engraved in stone where they can read the following words: "You fucking retards of the XXI century, stop trolling Albanians in the forums. Albanians are our descendants".

Laberia

01-07-2018, 04:33 PM

So in search for evidence since you can't find any you decide to construct an elaborate lie of an origin story that is literally not backed by any serious science? Making up your own deluded stories is not called evidence. Even genetics still proves Albanians are more native than your people. So a record doesnt need to be drawn up to prove Albanian nativity.

The absence of evidences does not mean the evidence of absence. Illyrians and later Albanians were called Romans in those few documents that we have from that period of history called exactly Dark Age. As a separate ethnic group Albanians started to be mentioned when they revolted against the Byzantines and part of them switched from Orthodox in Catholics and thanks to conflict between East and West, the first Albanian principalities emerged as political factor.

Dimos

01-09-2018, 06:51 PM

I don't know why people are trying so hard to separate Albanians from Greeks when Greeks are CLOSER TO ALBANIANS than to anyone else. It makes no sense.

Because of the different culture/language/history/religion?
Because of the different political choices and alliances throughout the years?
Because they chose to be are Albanians and we chose to be Greeks.
Genes have little to do with ethnogenesis and national consciousness.

Vyacheslav

01-09-2018, 07:21 PM

Balanovsky says that the modern Greeks are descendants of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, just as the Minoans had a genetic component originating from the Caucasus and Iran, while the Mycenaeans had a small trace from Eastern Europe and Siberia.
http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=27987

Jack_vorobey

01-17-2018, 01:11 PM

Root

03-20-2018, 07:27 PM

I'm not sure barbarians on this forum can speak Russian.

said an ugly barbarian prick

Jack_vorobey

03-20-2018, 09:33 PM

said an ugly barbarian prick
You have some deep-seated issues I see.

Root

03-20-2018, 09:36 PM

You have some deep-seated issues I see.

you're Jack Vorobey :D

Tauromachos

03-20-2018, 10:04 PM

Apulia plots only as far north as southern PEloponnese. No south Italians are comparable to Macedonians or thessalians.

But other Italians are

Also in the study on Peloponnese Greeks some of the Maniots shifted South from the Sicilian samples used there

Ice

07-21-2019, 07:11 AM

Albanians have more EV13..

NotYourKind

08-21-2019, 09:06 PM

Morlak

08-21-2019, 09:28 PM

Completely different genetics, only similarities are input from slavs and some arab (a lot less in albanians)

Albanian j2 is different to greek
Albanian eV is different to Greek, greeks with ev13 were albanians that converted

Thats not true. E-V13 is as much as Greek as Albanian.
Sure some of E-V13 might have come from Arvanites but Greeks had it much before Arvanite migration to Greece.

NotYourKind

08-21-2019, 11:20 PM

Thats not true. E-V13 is as much as Greek as Albanian.
Sure some of E-V13 might have come from Arvanites but Greeks had it much before Arvanite migration to Greece.

What are the numbers for Greek ev13? Has there been a dna project done on them?

Morlak

08-22-2019, 02:22 PM

What are the numbers for Greek ev13? Has there been a dna project done on them?

Around 20-30% of Greeks have E. There is Greek DNA project on FTDNA
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx?section=yresults.

The Great Uniter

08-24-2019, 12:49 PM

Genetically Albanians score even 45% EV-13.

Jana

08-24-2019, 01:06 PM

They look pretty different on average. To me Albanians look more familiar than Greeks.

Chocolate_Hound

11-10-2021, 04:23 AM

lockdownboredom

11-10-2021, 04:32 AM

Lmao Greece is not "first world" in terms of development. They are not a Western country (Orthodox and use Greek script), nor do they look the part (very swarthy on average). It's poorer than Croatia.

How long is it going to take mods to ban this Indian street shitters 100th Apricity account?

Dimitri159

02-23-2022, 08:03 PM

They look similar for the most part. But Albanians seem to have way bigger, more brachy heads. This doesn’t have anything to do with phenotype but Albanians also seem to have more aggressive and/or emotionless facial expressions. Greeks are slightly darker on average in terms of both of skin and hair color, especially during the summer for Greeks.

Some features they both commonly share are nose shapes/size (Dinaric and Mediterranean type noses) and eye shapes/size.

Greeks:

https://youtu.be/b1oI0hSSoQw

Albanians:

https://youtu.be/bFhlNEGpWYQ

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 05:58 PM

Deleted.

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 06:14 PM

The main difference is that Greeks are white and their culture European, while Albanians are not and their culture neither.

Then there are many smaller differences more, as that Greece is a developed country and First World, good at sport with an excellent cuisine, landscapes, women, etc

Culturally Greeks are whiter but genetically/phenotypically Albanians are whiter.

Albanians and Greeks genetically plot in the same spot, but Greeks are slightly more West Asian-shifted with S. Italians: https://www.nevgen.org/PCA%20charts/PCA%20Europe%20and%20vicinity%20axis%202-1%20a.png, https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jean-Michel-Guinet/publication/259441354/figure/fig3/AS:271610733133833@1441768453301/Principal-Component-Analysis-PCA-on-all-present-day-west-Eurasians-with-ancient-samples.png.

General Albanian crowd:
https://i.dawn.com/primary/2014/11/54626f99a96e0.jpg

General Greek crowd:
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2019/07/05/16/greece-election.jpg?quality=75&width=982&height=726&auto=webp

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 06:19 PM

The difference seems to be that Albanians have a lot more Dinarid and Alpine types, while Greeks have more Med.
Alpine and Dinarid is also typical in Greece but they are almost always blended with Mediterranean types. Albanians have more pure Dinarid and Alpine.

These phenotypical differences make a rather typical distinction between the two. Albanians have larger heads but weaker jaws. Greeks are also slightly darker.

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 07:13 PM

im pretty sure in IBD sharing even cypriots and cretans will come closer to Balkan slavs for example than to spain and italy. nothing wrong with being part eastern euro.

What makes you think that? Cypriots have had little to no contact with east Europeans, and on average they are the most Levantine-shifted people in Europe. Sicilians are also shifted close to the Levant by European standards, so why wouldn’t Cypriots be closer to them instead? Same goes the Greek Islanders and even parts of the mainland.

For the record, your IBD assumption turns out to be false. Even Albanians and mainland Greeks are closer to Italians in terms of IBD and nowhere near the general Slavic pool:

https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-020-64007-2/MediaObjects/41598_2020_64007_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp

https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-020-64007-2/MediaObjects/41598_2020_64007_Fig5_HTML.png?as=webp

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 07:45 PM

The main difference is that Greeks are white and their culture European, while Albanians are not and their culture neither.

Then there are many smaller differences more, as that Greece is a developed country and First World, good at sport with an excellent cuisine, landscapes, women, etc

Culturally Greeks are whiter but genetically/phenotypically Albanians are whiter.

Albanians and Greeks genetically plot in the same spot, but Greeks are slightly more West Asian-shifted with S. Italians: https://www.nevgen.org/PCA%20charts/...%202-1%20a.png, https://www.researchgate.net/profile...nt-samples.png.

General Albanian crowd:
https://i.dawn.com/primary/2014/11/54626f99a96e0.jpg

General Greek crowd:
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3f...=726&auto=webp

Cristiano viejo

08-11-2022, 09:24 PM

[QUOTE=Dimitri159;7560457]genetically/phenotypically Albanians are whiter.
bullshit

Renekton

08-11-2022, 09:28 PM

Depending which Greeks are you talking about.

From Thessaly any upward we are close with Albanians especially Epirotans.

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 09:33 PM

Deleted.

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 09:40 PM

bullshit

How uneducated are you on this particular subject? Do you completely ignore genetic studies and videos/images of Albanians or do you just assume Albanians must be non-white because they’re Muslim and perceived as backward criminals?

Dimitri159

08-11-2022, 10:19 PM

bullshit

Look for yourself self and compare to Greeks.

Here are some Albanians: https://youtu.be/-zM_NmRuh6w

And now Greeks: https://youtu.be/y_2CoLj0TQA

Okay maybe Albanians are not so white. But not any less white-looking than Greeks.

Cristiano viejo

08-14-2022, 02:59 PM

How uneducated are you on this particular subject? Do you completely ignore genetic studies and videos/images of Albanians or do you just assume Albanians must be non-white because they’re Muslim and perceived as backward criminals?

I have seen tons of Albanians here in the news, I know what they look how.

Greeks are lighter, live with it.

Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 05:24 PM

I have seen tons of Albanians here in the news, I know what they look how.

Greeks are lighter, live with it.

In what news? Greeks are the same skin color as Albanians. You live it.
How many Greeks have you seen in the news? Clearly not a lot if you are assuming Greeks are super White. Genetically Albos are whiter and Greeks are closer to S. Italians while Albanians are closer to Serbs and Bulgarians.

Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 05:25 PM

Deleted

Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 05:30 PM

In what news? Greeks are the same skin color as Albanians. You live it.
How many Greeks have you seen in the news? Clearly not a lot if you are assuming Greeks are super White. Genetically Albos are whiter and Greeks are closer to S. Italians while Albanians are closer to Serbs and Bulgarians.

Also skin color doesn’t really matter when I speak of phenotype. When it comes to facial features, I notice Greek people have more exotic features that Albanians lack more of. Even if Albanians are slightly darker, Greeks have a more West Asian vibe in the face. And I’m not saying this as an insult, I am half Greek myself. West Asian are more Caucasoid than Europeans so I see nothing wrong with it LMAO.

Albanians have a little more Steppe and WHG than Greeks, while Greeks have a little more Anatolian Farmer.

Avgvstvs

08-14-2022, 05:50 PM

I have seen tons of Albanians here in the news, I know what they look how.

Greeks are lighter, live with it."In the news"

XD

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Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 05:57 PM

"In the news"

XD

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He’s from Spain like how many Albanians does he possibly see from that?! Lmao.

Albanians are pretty dark but so are Greeks. They are the same skin color.

Avgvstvs

08-14-2022, 06:31 PM

He’s from Spain like how many Albanians does he possibly see from that?! Lmao.

Albanians are pretty dark but so are Greeks. They are the same skin color.In Italy there are many many albanians, instead, so i'm quite used to see them.

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Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 06:42 PM

In Italy there are many many albanians, instead, so i'm quite used to see them.

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He thinks Greeks are the only white people in southern AND eastern Europe. The guy is on hallucinogenic drugs.

Avgvstvs

08-14-2022, 09:22 PM

He thinks Greeks are the only white people in southern AND eastern Europe. The guy is on hallucinogenic drugs.Always been.

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Cristiano viejo

08-14-2022, 10:12 PM

In what news?
Albanians are super criminal, I am tired of seeing them in the news about their crimes here.

Greeks are the same skin color as Albanians. You live it.
How many Greeks have you seen in the news? Clearly not a lot if you are assuming Greeks are super White. Genetically Albos are whiter and Greeks are closer to S. Italians while Albanians are closer to Serbs and Bulgarians.
I dont care about genetic (lol, Albanians are mostly African e1b1, dont make me laugh), I am talking about phenotypes.

"In the news"

Unlike you, and fortunately, I dont interact with Albanians.

Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 10:22 PM

I dont care about genetic (lol, Albanians are mostly African e1b1, dont make me laugh), I am talking about phenotypes.

Greeks are also mostly E1b1 and J2. By that logic Greeks should also be “African”.

Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 10:24 PM

Unlike you, and fortunately, I dont interact with Albanians.

Then you don’t know. Albanians phenotypically look Balkanian, which is generally whiter-looking than Greeks who have some subtle West Asian elements in their faces. I see it with my own family and at church.

Cristiano viejo

08-14-2022, 10:27 PM

Greeks are also mostly E1b1 and J2. By that logic Greeks should also be “African”.
You claimed genetically Albanians are whiter than Greeks. Please explain how, if they are e1b1 :rolleyes:

Then you don’t know. Albanians phenotypically look Balkanian, which is generally whiter-looking than Greeks who have some subtle West Asian elements in their faces. I see it with my own family and at church.

I dont know them personally, but as you can understand I dont need that to know how they are phenotypically.

Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 10:38 PM

You claimed genetically Albanians are whiter than Greeks. Please explain how, if they are e1b1 :rolleyes:

I dont know them personally, but as you can understand I dont need that to know how they are phenotypically.

Because Greeks have nearly the same amount of E1b1. Albanians also have more R1/b and I2 than Greeks.

Also haplogroups don’t mean much. Some Middle Eastern populations will have more R1a/b than Europeans but they are still genetically distant. Greek people plot much closer to West Asia than Albanians do on pca plots.

I dont know them personally, but as you can understand I dont need that to know how they are phenotypically.

Dimitri159

08-14-2022, 11:32 PM

Cristiano viejo

08-15-2022, 03:42 PM

Because Greeks have nearly the same amount of E1b1. Albanians also have more R1/b and I2 than Greeks.

Also haplogroups don’t mean much. Some Middle Eastern populations will have more R1a/b than Europeans but they are still genetically distant. Greek people plot much closer to West Asia than Albanians do on pca plots.
Nah, plot the same.

Dimitri159

08-15-2022, 04:00 PM

Nah, plot the same.

Greek mainlanders plot the same. Greek Islanders plot closer to Cyprus and West Asia.

And how are Albanians not White if they are genetically the same to Greeks who are supposedly so White according to you.

You make 0 sense.

Dimitri159

08-15-2022, 04:05 PM

Nah, plot the same.

what makes Poles look whiter than Greek people? explain.

European features = strainght noses, hooded eyes, normal heads and light or olive skin. Greeks do look like this on average, Polacks dont.

Greeks do not typically have hooded eyes. This is another CM WHG semi-Mongoloid trait more common for northern Europeans (INCLUDING POLOCKS). Because Polish people, like other Northern Europeans, have small and squinty eyes with prominent browridges.
Greeks on the other hand have prominent eyes and they are not hooded as you can fully see the eye-lid like these standard Greek examples:

https://greekreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/papaflessas_greece_independence_dikaios_Public_Dom ain.jpg

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57125c2c2b8dde54a34b537f/1605707118433-E7U58S81XQLRABUWVB5D/EmdIJIrXcAMlURA.jpg

Many Greeks also have convex nose types, and way more on average than Polish people:

Greeks
https://youtu.be/uOU-F0geVNQ

Polish
https://youtu.be/92O9nytTAEQ

As you can see Polish people also have lighter skin & hair.

Cristiano viejo

08-15-2022, 04:05 PM

Greek mainlanders plot the same. Greek Islanders plot closer to Cyprus and West Asia.

And how are Albanians not White if they are genetically the same to Greeks who are supposedly so White according to you.

You make 0 sense.
Albanian e1b1 is 27%, Kosovo near 50%... Greece 21% https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Dimitri159

08-15-2022, 04:12 PM

Albanian e1b1 is 27%, Kosovo near 50%... Greece 21% https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

6% is not a tremendous gap. But since you want to exaggerate small percentages, keep in mind that Greece also has more J2 than Albania, which is a West Asian type. Also Greece has more G2a which is another West Asian type, so overall that’s an 8% gap of Greeks being more West Asian than Albanians. And even that 21% of E1b1 is still a mountain compared to places like Poland who you deem as “less White” than Greeks.

And again haplogroups are meaningless because like I said, some areas in the Middle East have more R1b than their closest neighbors but they still genetically plot with their neighbors and NOT Europeans on PCA and IBD tests.

Dimitri159

08-15-2022, 04:15 PM

Delete

Avgvstvs

08-15-2022, 05:24 PM

Albanians are super criminal, I am tired of seeing them in the news about their crimes here.

I dont care about genetic (lol, Albanians are mostly African e1b1, dont make me laugh), I am talking about phenotypes.

Unlike you, and fortunately, I dont interact with Albanians.Seleccionar la gente con la cual interactuar basándose solamente en su origen étnico no tiene ningún sentido, tío.

A lo mejor hay razones sociales/culturales, pero muchos albaneses aquí no son gente rara.

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zebruh

08-15-2022, 05:30 PM

More or less the same since both are balkanites and decend from pelasgians.
The difference is more religious probably since many albanians were influenced to Islam. They are christian albanians though.

Voskos

08-15-2022, 05:59 PM

The difference is more religious probably since many albanians were influenced to Islam.

Many Greeks too, I'd say even more Greeks, the difference being that Albanians didn't intermarry with Turks and (unlike the converted Greeks) didn't get culturally assimilated, in the sense that they didn't get Turkified.

Dimitri159

08-15-2022, 06:05 PM

Many Greeks too, I'd say even more Greeks, the difference being that Albanians didn't intermarry with Turks and (unlike the converted Greeks) didn't get culturally assimilated, in the sense that they didn't get Turkified.

Is it true that Greece would have been 50/50 Christian and Islamic if it weren’t for the population exchange?

Voskos

08-15-2022, 06:23 PM

Is it true that Greece would have been 50/50 Christian and Islamic if it weren’t for the population exchange?

a quick search gives a figure of 500K Turks from Greece exchanged with Turkey. Given that the population of Greece at the time was around 5 million (according to Google), this would mean that muslims made up around 10%. In my opinion it would have been a case similar to what is Bulgaria now (around 10-15% muslim).

Rizza

09-28-2022, 03:17 PM

Albanian e1b1 is 27%, Kosovo near 50%... Greece 21% https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Nope. Completely outdated and based on very small samples size for Kosovo and Albania. Eupedia should never be quoted on these matters.

https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

These are statistics according to Albanian Y-DNA project , EV-13 ranges on average between 20%-30%, more or less similar to even some Spanish regions. EV-13 was found in Neolithic Spain also.

Regional variations, sample size, and bottle necks and founder effects play a huge role. Even J2b2-L283 was bottle necked in ancient times and it's lower frequency in the south compared to the north also most likely means other Y-DNA in the south clearly have been bottle necked, some areas in the South have higher J2b2-L283 than others, in the North some areas have 30%-40% J2b2-L283. Overall J2b2-L283, R1b and EV-13 are the most common Y-DNA however with regional variations of course. Some regions having very little EV-13 while others having a lot of EV-13 also. Such variation can even be seen in Kosovo. But for some regions in Kosovo the samples are small and puts the number higher, it's the overall picture that would matter in this case when all the regions are added together with most overall showing around 29%-30% EV-13 for Kosovo, 20%-25% R1b and J2b2-L283 in a similar proportion.

Nah, plot the same.

Nope. Albanians on average plot more North with Northern Albanians clustering like Northern Italians and Tuscans or just East. Some Northern Greeks like Macedonians and Thessaly plot similar in some cases.

Rizza

09-28-2022, 04:09 PM

Here is a PCA Map I created very quick with some averages I gathered , Albanians on average plot more North and More West next to some North Italians

The South-North Cline goes this way <---- ---->

https://i.postimg.cc/8kw6LzQQ/Bilde-2022-09-28-180725128.png

Of course these are just averages, and there is individual variation. North-East Italy and some other North Italian regions such as Trentino-Alto-Adige are not shown on the map as they are north of Veneto

Cristiano viejo

09-28-2022, 05:16 PM

These are statistics according to Albanian Y-DNA project , EV-13 ranges on average between 20%-30%,
That is exactly what I said (27% to be exact, according Eupedia).

more or less similar to even some Spanish regions. EV-13 was found in Neolithic Spain also.

Which Spanish regions????

Firenna

09-28-2022, 05:28 PM

Rizza

09-28-2022, 06:08 PM

Italian and Greek regional averages I got are from G25 official btw , Albanian regions I got from other DNA forums , I did not add all Albanian regions, some Southern/Central Albanians regions are like Tuscany, Thessaly basically .

zebruh

09-29-2022, 01:08 AM

a quick search gives a figure of 500K Turks from Greece exchanged with Turkey. Given that the population of Greece at the time was around 5 million (according to Google), this would mean that muslims made up around 10%. In my opinion it would have been a case similar to what is Bulgaria now (around 10-15% muslim).

Its because greeks mixed alot with carians and carians were indigenous to anatolia who also lived to the agean. So they will look like turks on autosomal dna and its why greeks get alot of middle eastern like scores.
Most turks arent actually decended from gok turks or whatever or have substantial ancestry from them.

wvwvw

09-29-2022, 10:01 PM

Its because greeks mixed alot with carians and carians were indigenous to anatolia who also lived to the agean. So they will look like turks on autosomal dna and its why greeks get alot of middle eastern like scores.
Most turks arent actually decended from gok turks or whatever or have substantial ancestry from them.

The Carians, Lydians, Lycians and Phrygians were Maonians who split into Phrygians, Carians, Lydians, and Lycians.

These people came from Crete and the Phrygians used to live above the Macedonians. They were all most likely Minoan period Greeks who left Greece when the Hellenes came and settled in Macedonia.

The Hittites/Hettaioi/Eteocretans also came from Crete and had for most of their existance Greek or Phrygian kings, and used the Crypto-Minoan script for four centuries. After their Empire was destroyed they fell under the influence of Assyrians, which caused them to change their Greco-Hittite language (hich was spoken throughout Greece,Balkans and Anatolia). The Greeks knew the Hittites as Assyrians. The Hittite Empire was over by 1200 BC.

The fact they came from Crete had no bearing on the origin of the Hittites. The Hittite genome split into 3 different mutations 45,000 years ago in the region of northern Syria-Anatolia which is why one marker is concentrated in Colchis (Georgia) the place of its origin while the other predominant marker is concentrated in Anatolia and Greece, and the third is concentrated in Lebanon.

The Lydians were a Greco-Hitttite race and so were the Carians and Lycians.

Tyrsenoi Lydians migrated to Italy after the Thera Eruption. Lydian doesn't appear until 600 BC, which is about the time that the Lydians went into alliance with the Ionians. In 1400 BC the Greek God Dionysus (Tudhaliya III, Thurgal as the Bible calls him, Tidal, Dagon, Tauro Kranos 1400 BC) ruled over  Anatolia, and after being deposed in a coup came to Greece. Dionysus is Di-Wo-Ni-So-Jo in Mycenaean.

The Lycians were Cretans and an Athenian colony. They spoke  Mycenaean. Lycia was founded by the Greek king Lycus and it was inhabited formerly by Minoans and then by Achaean Greeks. In Michael Wood's Search of the Trojan War, the Hittites were at war with the Achaean Greek Lycians.

Lycia was founded by Sarpedon the brother of Minos in 1410 BC (Jerome Chronicon) and was named after Lycos the son of Pandion II in 1270 BC. The tribe Lucani of Italy and Lucania come from Lycians.

[Apoll. 3.1.2] [Hdts. 1.173.1] [Paus. 7.2.5]
"So long as Sarpedon reigned, his followers kept the name which they brought  with them from Crete, and were called Termilae, as the Lycians still are by  those who live in their neighbourhood."

Herodotus:
[1.173.1] The Lycians are in good truth anciently from Crete; which island, in former days, was wholly peopled with barbarians. A quarrel arising there between the two sons of Europa, Sarpedon and Minos, as to which of them should be king, Minos, whose party prevailed, drove Sarpedon and his followers into banishment. The exiles sailed to Asia, and landed on the Milyan territory. Milyas was the ancient name of the country now inhabited by the Lycians: the Milyae of the present day were, in those times, called Solymi. So long as Sarpedon reigned, his followers kept the name which they brought with them from Crete, and were called Termilae, as the Lycians still are by those who live in their neighbourhood. But after Lycus, the son of Pandion, banished from Athens by his brother Aegeus had found a refuge with Sarpedon in the country of these Termilae, they came, in course of time, to be called from him Lycians. Their customs are partly Cretan, partly Carian. They have, however, one singular custom in which they differ from every other nation in the world. They take the mother's and not the father's name. Ask a Lycian who he is, and he answers by giving his own name, that of his mother, and so on in the female line. Moreover, if a free woman marry a man who is a slave, their children are full citizens; but if a free man marry a foreign woman, or live with a concubine, even though he be the first person in the State, the children forfeit all the rights of citizenship."

The Carians were Maonians like the Tyrsenoi. Tiglath-Pilaser attacked the Greek region of Lycia in 1110 BC as well as Caria and possibly Crete. The Ionian and Aeolian migrations probably occured as a result of Tiglath Pilasers destruction of the Carians. Crete, Anatolia, Media, and Persia did not come of the Dark Ages until Assyrian power was brought to an end in about 700BC by numerous rebellions against Senecherib, havein cause the Dark Ages when Assyria became the master of Asia and stifled all free trade.

The earliest account for the name Phrygians was that it was  originally Brygians from Brygus the king of Spain in about 1540 BC who  founded a colony next to what became Macedonians so any language that the Tyrsenoi spoke must be related first to Phrygian and then to Macedonian Greek. So look to Spanish or maybe even Basque.

So long before the Aeolian and Ionian migrations Aegean Islands and most of the coast of Asia-Minor was already Greek and admitted to being Greek by the Hittites themselves.

wvwvw

09-29-2022, 10:12 PM

Herodotus:
[1.173.1] The Lycians are in good truth anciently from Crete; which island, in former days, was wholly peopled with barbarians.

In Herodotus time any non Hellene was a barbarian, including Greek speaking tribes like Pelasgians. And anyone who did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek like the Pelasgians who spoke Arcado-Cypriot/Mycenean were a barbarian, despite he explicitly states that all Hellenic dialects (Doric, Aeolic and Attic-Ionic) derive from Pelasgian.

Rizza

09-29-2022, 10:57 PM

Difference is that Albanians are more north and west and every single Albanian region including Southern Albania cluster next to Northern Italians and Tuscans
Except for Greece Thessaly and Some Macedonians every Greek region is even more South than Southern Albania and more east, also southern / central Italians are more south on average and many even shift more east.

One Iron Age Illyrian is south of Tuscany and some samples in Macedonia are south and there are Albanians who plot south like that too but overall picture of average regions I have added on pca maps I am talking about here . Even many southern shifted Albanians are not as south as some Greeks, Thracians or even some Southern/Central Italians nor shift as East.

wvwvw

09-29-2022, 11:23 PM

Hittite samples from 1750 BC

Kit Number: Z020190

PuntDNAL K12
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 47.26
2 Caucasus_HG 34.77
3 Near_East 14.50
4 European_HG 3.12

Finished reading population data. 135 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cypriot @ 6.935007
2 Druze @ 10.994926
3 Turkish_Jew @ 14.822724
4 Sicilian_East @ 15.314612
5 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 15.611962
6 Moroccan_Jew @ 15.721437
7 Assyrian @ 16.169197
8 Turkish_Kayseri @ 16.760128
9 Tunisian_Jew @ 16.816135
10 Iranian_Jew @ 16.839214
11 Armenian @ 17.485435
12 Iraqi_Jew @ 18.015112
13 Libyan_Jew @ 18.145651
14 Lebanese @ 18.156378
15 Sicilian_West @ 18.457388
16 Syrian @ 19.995495
17 Laz @ 20.040901
18 Palestinian @ 20.930710
19 Turkish_Trabzon @ 20.976038
20 Georgian_Jew @ 21.219385

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cypriot +50% Cypriot @ 6.935007

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Druze +25% Sardinian +25% Turkish_Trabzon @ 5.844772

Eurogenes K13
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 42.41
2 West_Med 26.84
3 West_Asian 22.52
4 Red_Sea 4.61
5 North_Atlantic 3.61

Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cyprian @ 8.972751
2 Lebanese_Christian @ 15.004678
3 Lebanese_Muslim @ 15.063251
4 Samaritan @ 15.162564
5 Tunisian_Jewish @ 17.403482
6 Algerian_Jewish @ 17.440098
7 Syrian @ 17.687239
8 Libyan_Jewish @ 18.073921
9 Lebanese_Druze @ 18.260983
10 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.392298
11 Italian_Jewish @ 18.535755
12 Assyrian @ 19.442945
13 South_Italian @ 19.825220
14 Kurdish_Jewish @ 19.852375
15 Jordanian @ 20.816086
16 Iranian_Jewish @ 21.012079
17 Palestinian @ 21.370081
18 East_Sicilian @ 22.692663
19 Georgian_Jewish @ 22.722448
20 Ashkenazi @ 22.969913

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +50% Cyprian @ 8.972751

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Assyrian +25% Lebanese_Christian +25% Sardinian @ 8.520500

MDLP K23b
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 48.92
2 European_Early_Farmers 25.13
3 Near_East 13.54
4 South_Central_Asian 5.42
5 North_African 5.11
6 African_Pygmy 1.23

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Islands_ @ 8.805417
2 Cypriot_ @ 9.266016
3 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 11.211859
4 Italian_Jew_ @ 13.447717
5 French_Jew_ @ 14.134159
6 Turk_Jew_ @ 14.209823
7 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 14.274565
8 Christian_Arabs_Israel_ @ 14.341336
9 Sicilian_Center_ @ 14.360955
10 Cretan_ @ 14.496547
11 Italian_South_ @ 14.845836
12 Syrian_Jew_ @ 15.162273
13 Sicilian_East_ @ 15.701872
14 Romanian_Jew_ @ 16.193060
15 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 16.922123
16 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 16.983034
17 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 17.003237
18 Lebanese_Druze_ @ 17.126554
19 Lebanese_Christian_ @ 17.236076
20 Greek_Athens_ @ 17.320421

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cypriot_ +50% Greek_Islands_ @ 8.101921

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Christian_Arabs_Israel_ +25% Georgian_Laz_ +25% Sardinian_ @ 4.099204

Hilarious that Hittite samples from 1750 BC come out as 50% Cypriot+50% Cypriot

and 50% Cypriot+50% Greek islands,

but it proves historians were correct.

The Hittite Anatolians were also carriers of the J2 linage and split from
the rule of the Minoan Greeks at the time of Cronos in 1700 BC and then came
under the middle eastern influence of the Assyro-Babylonians. This is the
time the Hittite Empire started.

Rizza

09-29-2022, 11:26 PM

It's mostly Northern Greeks like Thessaly and Macedonia who overlap with Albanians that's why people get that.

Anaximander

10-01-2022, 09:25 PM

The difference between Greeks and Albanians is that of oil and water.
Oil and water dont mix

Rizza

10-01-2022, 10:07 PM

Indeed we don't mix with East Meds :lol:

Cristiano viejo

10-01-2022, 11:48 PM

Indeed we don't mix with East Meds :lol:

You Albanians already are East Meds, boy.

Rizza

10-01-2022, 11:58 PM

:lol:

Rizza

10-02-2022, 12:09 AM

I heard your mom likes East Meds, is this true ?

zebruh

10-03-2022, 06:59 AM

In Herodotus time any non Hellene was a barbarian, including Greek speaking tribes like Pelasgians. And anyone who did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek like the Pelasgians who spoke Arcado-Cypriot/Mycenean were a barbarian, despite he explicitly states that all Hellenic dialects (Doric, Aeolic and Attic-Ionic) derive from Pelasgian.

Hilarious that Hittite samples from 1750 BC come out as 50% Cypriot+50% Cypriot

and 50% Cypriot+50% Greek islands,

but it proves historians were correct.

The Hittite Anatolians were also carriers of the J2 linage and split from
the rule of the Minoan Greeks at the time of Cronos in 1700 BC and then came
under the middle eastern influence of the Assyro-Babylonians. This is the
time the Hittite Empire started.

That doesnt prove hittites are actually cyrpiot. If i use gedmatch calculators for those population thing it would give mexican ethnicity when I am not mexican. And in 4 pop give me nordic and then andulusian or something like that. These arent accurate at all and in pca plot i plot with south asians with 0 south asian ancestry.

Also this is at a distance of 8.972751.
Its not that close. Greeks were similar back then because many greeks mixed with carians from the agean but they weren't Hittites or lydians or lycians.
Edit miss read

zebruh

10-03-2022, 07:40 AM

Hilarious that Hittite samples from 1750 BC come out as 50% Cypriot+50% Cypriot

and 50% Cypriot+50% Greek islands,

but it proves historians were correct.

The Hittite Anatolians were also carriers of the J2 linage and split from
the rule of the Minoan Greeks at the time of Cronos in 1700 BC and then came
under the middle eastern influence of the Assyro-Babylonians. This is the
time the Hittite Empire started.Its not accurate

My mld 23b for instance

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Puerto_Rican_ @ 17.457979
2 Mexican_CV_ @ 21.564873
3 Miwok_ @ 24.211617
4 Colombian_ @ 24.449141
5 Mexican_ @ 24.856796
6 Tsimsian_ @ 28.699224
7 Serrano_ @ 31.581755
8 Ojibwa_ @ 33.654167
9 Haida_ @ 35.997341
10 Egyptian_Iskandaria_ @ 37.568806
11 Cree_ @ 38.614464
12 Algonquin_ @ 39.150078
13 Sicilian_West_ @ 40.010719
14 Maltese_ @ 40.163998
15 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 40.459980
16 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 40.581154
17 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 40.587631
18 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 40.709057
19 Jordanian_ @ 41.053249
20 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 41.326035

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Mexican_CV_ +50% Puerto_Rican_ @ 14.852490

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Serrano_ +25% Sicilian_West_ +25% Wambo_ @ 4.755081

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
1 French_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Quechua_Bolivia_ + Turk_Jew_ @ 2.937235
2 French_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Moroccan_Jew_ + Quechua_Bolivia_ @ 2.937543
3 French_ + Quechua_Bolivia_ + Turk_Jew_ + Wambo_ @ 2.938978
4 French_ + Moroccan_Jew_ + Quechua_Bolivia_ + Wambo_ @ 2.942143
5 Bamoun_ + French_ + Quechua_Bolivia_ + Turk_Jew_ @ 2.943669
6 French_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Moroccan_Jew_ + Zapotec_ @ 2.946100
7 Bamoun_ + French_ + Moroccan_Jew_ + Quechua_Bolivia_ @ 2.952257
8 French_ + Libyan_Jew_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Zapotec_ @ 2.952399
9 Bolivian_LaPaz_ + French_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Turk_Jew_ @ 2.953467
10 Bolivian_LaPaz_ + French_ + Turk_Jew_ + Wambo_ @ 2.955647
11 French_ + Moroccan_Jew_ + Wambo_ + Zapotec_ @ 2.955872
12 French_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Turk_Jew_ + Zapotec_ @ 2.958414
13 French_ + Libyan_Jew_ + Wambo_ + Zapotec_ @ 2.958618
14 Bamoun_ + Bolivian_LaPaz_ + French_ + Turk_Jew_ @ 2.958674
15 Aymara_ + French_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Moroccan_Jew_ @ 2.960310
16 Bolivian_LaPaz_ + French_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Moroccan_Jew_ @ 2.961674
17 French_ + Huichol_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Turk_Jew_ @ 2.962312
18 Bamoun_ + French_ + Moroccan_Jew_ + Zapotec_ @ 2.963093
19 Cachi_ + French_ + Libyan_Jew_ + Wambo_ @ 2.963564
20 French_ + Huichol_ + Mende_Sierra_Leone_MSL_ + Moroccan_Jew_ @ 2.963908

Done.

Elapsed time 33.4566 seconds.

I am not bolivian, turk jew and my french ancestry is very very minor from 1700s from 1 ancestor.
In 3 pop they placed me sicilian west instead of spanish

I am not mexican

Anaximander

11-04-2022, 01:04 PM

I heard your mom likes East Meds, is this true ?

A dinaroarmenoid jew, talking like this?

zebruh

11-04-2022, 01:52 PM

Albanians are full european.
Most greeks are mixed with middle eastern , phonecian and north african since ancient times from greek colonies.

Anaximander

11-04-2022, 02:43 PM

Albanians are full european.
Most greeks are mixed with middle eastern , phonecian and north african since ancient times from greek colonies.

u forgot the bashibazuk colonists

Bart0s

11-05-2022, 05:55 AM

A dinaroarmenoid jew, talking like this?

lol said the Syrian falafel maker