R1a-M458-L1029* [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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Dibran

01-06-2018, 05:48 PM

Hi all,

So I finally received my full genomes file. I haven't been able to reach Michal. However, the admins at Albanian Bloodlines were able to look over my interpretation file. I am positive for L1029 but do not share any of the downstream SNPs on Yfull. So I am predicted to fall under L1029*. TMRCA seems to be 2000ybp, if I am reading correctly. I may or may not share a SNP with the German or Norwegian sample. I will have to wait until I receive my BAM file monday, to upload to Yfull to see exactly how it splits. I have 26 unique SNPs. Only one of which I share with 2 kits on FullGenomes. Idk their country of origin, but TMCA between us was 2,340 years(common ancestor approximately 340 BC).

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

https://s14.postimg.org/pspa1t4tt/L1029.jpg

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 06:09 PM

Very interesting.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 06:15 PM

Very interesting.

Yea, it is. It seems to be the older variety of L1029.

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 06:20 PM

Yea, it is. It seems to be the older variety of L1029.

It just adds more probabilities.

In situations like this, it might be too early to make solid predictions.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 06:23 PM

It just adds more probabilities.

In situations like this, it might be too early to make solid predictions.

Perhaps. I also have no close matches on FullGenomes either. However, the 2 closest ones were the ones I shared in OP with 350BC TMRCA. We shared one(FGC72553+) SNP out of 26 unique. The general TMRCA is 2000ybp.
_

Dibran

01-06-2018, 06:27 PM

It just adds more probabilities.

In situations like this, it might be too early to make solid predictions.

The oldest sample seems to be from Cagliari, in Sardinia.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 06:47 PM

Congrats, interesting results. Seems like you really do have a unique haplo

The Illyrian Warrior

01-06-2018, 06:50 PM

Congrats bro, keep us updated for new infos about your clade. :)

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 06:58 PM

Dibran

01-06-2018, 06:58 PM

Congrats, interesting results. Seems like you really do have a unique haplo

Congrats bro, keep us updated for new infos about your clade. :)

Yea. Its pretty interesting. Seems the oldest sample is popping up in Sardinia(per yfull). The only way it got there is either with Vandals, Goths and or Byzantines. Unless it was a later migration from Italy of a assimilated Greek/Arberesh that came from the mainland(via assimilated Avars/Slavs). Most of the Slavic samples are popping up further downstream with TMRCAs that seem to line up with the great migration. The TMRCA here seems to be 2000ypb. Which is much earlier. Just looking at a timeline of the region, I see the Goths has some incursions in Late BC early AD period. One of my distant matches on the file was a Cirkas(seems like northern kavkaz). But he wasnt the closest. The closest had TMRCA of 2350ypb. Around 350BC. Doesnt explain the Norwegian and German samples though. lol

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 06:59 PM

can't wait to get my results from FTDNA :)

I am on Y37 but I will probably go to Y111 then Big Y :)

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:02 PM

A TMRCA of 2,000 puts it around the year 18AD which is during the Roman era. The TMRCA probably lived around NE Europe or Central Europe so the populations which could be candidates are the Balts, Slavs, Sarmatians, Macromanni etc as they lived there during this time. Thing is that I’m not sure if there were any migrations from those regions into the Balkans at that time

Goths already occupied regions with plentiful L1029(today) prior to the great migration. Some of it could have easily been absorbed. The TMRCA does line up with some early AD incursions of Goths into the Balkans.

257-263 A.D.
The Goths raid Greece and Asia Minor. In 267 A.D., they sack Athens, Corinth, Sparta, and Argos.

280 A.D.
In response to raids by the Goths, Athens constructs a major fortification wall, the first since the time of Perikles.

378 A.D.
The Visigoths defeat the Eastern Roman emperor Valens near Adrianople. The battle is seen as a watershed in the decline of the Roman army and its ability to stem the barbarian invasions.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:12 PM

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

In is impossible to say for sure, as there is none ancient samples.
Only assumption is that it came with Slavs, as it is mainly northslavic marker.

But who knows for sure, especially about incidental wanderings.

Peterski

01-06-2018, 07:13 PM

All of L1029 is descended from CTS11962:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS11962/

Here is how it goes (from older to younger mutations): M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029

And then of course SNPs downstream of L1029.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:13 PM

A TMRCA of 2,000 puts it around the year 18AD which is during the Roman era. The TMRCA probably lived around NE Europe or Central Europe so the populations which could be candidates are the Balts, Slavs, Sarmatians, Macromanni etc as they lived there during this time. Thing is that I’m not sure if there were any migrations from those regions into the Balkans at that time

Heres some timeline bits around the breakoff.

6 CE
Publius Quinctilius Varus is made governor of Germania.

9 CE
The Rhine River is established as the boundary between the Latin and German speaking worlds, following the defeat of the Roman army, under the command of Varus, at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest.

121 CE - 125 CE
First trip of Hadrian around the Empire: Gaul, Germany, Noricum, Britain, Tarraconis, Cappadocia, Gallatia, Bythinia, Asia, Greece, Mesia, Dacia and Pannonia.

167 CE - 180 CE
Marcomannic Wars.
167 CE
Marcomanni sack Aquileia.
168 CE
Germanic tribes cross the Danube into the Roman Empire.

It could have been absorbed when crossing the Danube. As the pre-slavic tribes were already recorded on the upper Danube by different names prior to

Heres more on the timeline: https://www.ancient.eu/timeline/Roman_Empire/

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:16 PM

I am on Y37 but I will probably go to Y111 then Big Y :)

No sense in that.
I made 111 and it gave me not so much.
Better invest into 1) relatives and 2) SNPs.
It will be more 1) infomative and 2) cheaper.
But Y64 you should do. 111 not necessary, as
there is no need in that. Your admin should tell
you what is best in your case.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:18 PM

No sense in that.
I made 111 and it gave me not so much.
Better invest into 1) relatives and 2) SNPs.
It will be more 1) infomative and 2) cheaper.
But Y64 you should do. 111 not necessary, as
there is no need in that. Your admin should tell
you what is best in your case.

With respect, could you guys discuss subjects not pertaining to the OP elsewhere? thanks.

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 07:18 PM

No sense in that.
I made 111 and it gave me not so much.
Better invest into 1) relatives and 2) SNPs.
It will be more 1) infomative and 2) cheaper.
But Y64 you should do. 111 not necessary, as
there is no need in that. Your admin should tell
you what is best in your case.

Yes you are right, I shall ask those guys from serbian DNK project.
I've seen those SNP's tests but I have no idea what are they for.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:22 PM

In is impossible to say for sure, as there is none ancient samples.
Only assumption is that it came with Slavs, as it is mainly northslavic marker.

But who knows for sure, especially about incidental wanderings.

Only, no slavs belong to L1029* per Yfull, but further downstream L1029 clades(which I lack in entirety). I think people need to take into account that many of these branches(whether integral to the slavic ethnogenesis or not) were already wide spread prior to the formation of the Slavs to begin with. Considering this branch has a TMRCA of 2000ypb. It could have been brought by any number of tribes in central and eastern Europe. I also have 26 unique SNPs not shared with anyone. The one SNP I do share(with 2 FGC kits being my only close matches) has a TMRCA of 2350 yrs.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:23 PM

Yes you are right, I shall ask those guys from serbian DNK project.
I've seen those SNP's tests but I have no idea what are they for.

With respect, keep your discussions on the OP. Otherwise anything that has nothing to do with the thread, you can discuss amongst yourselves via email.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:28 PM

Only, no slavs belong to L1029* per Yfull, but further downstream L1029 clades(which I lack in entirety).

This is why I said, that it is not possible to say for sure.
Oldest types with *, are a problem, as they are usually
scattered everywhere, sugesting more ancient wandering.
But everywhere, means also among Slavs, where rest of
clades are present. Plus, in deep antiquity Slavs existed
too, but some incidental wanderings happened too. For
example somebody did join Goths, somebody else was
sold into slavery in Rome, someone was a trader and
yet someone was a traveler... hg from historical times
is often not clear and never will be without pedirgree.

Case of my clade is similar to your's btw.

I think people need to take into account that many of these branches(whether integral to the slavic ethnogenesis or not) were already wide spread prior to the formation of the Slavs to begin with.

Yes, this is actually what I always repeat.

Considering this branch has a TMRCA of 2000ypb. It could have been brought by any number of tribes in central and eastern Europe.

But there is no need for Völkerwanderung - people are in movement independently of it.

Peterski

01-06-2018, 07:33 PM

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

Notice that two of those L1029* samples listed by YFull are from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

I would consider them Slavic considering that Mecklenburg used to be Slavic land. See here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations&p=328344&viewfull=1#post328344

My wife is 100% indigenous to Western Mecklenburg for abt. 8 known generations! The ancestors were very rural and kind of "avoided" every city in between. (...) Mecklenburg is old Slavic land and the inner parts of the land were just poorly colonized by old-Germans. On the other hand the 30year war (1618-1648) led to an extreme decrease of the population in Mecklenburg from 300.000 to just 50.000. This caused a notable resettlement from Schleswig-Holstein and from Brandenburg. The amount of this resettlement is unkown and prior to beginning of church records. The family has numerous surnames of Slavic etymology as Züdel, Zabel, Pommerenke etc. which emerged hundreds of years before the 30year war.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:33 PM

This is why I said, that it is not possible to say for sure.
Oldest types with *, are a problem, as they are usually
scattered everywhere, sugesting more ancient wandering.
But everywhere, means also among Slavs, where rest of
clades are present. Plus, in deep antiquity Slavs existed
too, but some incidental wanderings happened too. For
example somebody did join Goths, somebody else was
sold into slavery in Rome, someone was a trader and
yet someone was a traveler... hg from historical times
is often not clear and never will be without pedirgree.

My clade is similar to yours btw.

Yes, this is actually what I always repeat.

But there is no need for Völkerwanderung - people are in movement independently of it.

Oh sure. I don't doubt a guy could have wandered off on his own. Or joined Romans, enslaved etc. Definitely possible. My family has always had an issue with authority. I imagine it could have been a non conformist splintering off the ranks. I guess time will tell.

Kelmendasi mentioned the Macromanni which I didnt think of.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:35 PM

Notice that two of those L1029* samples listed by YFull are from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

I would consider them Slavic considering that Mecklenburg used to be Slavic land. See here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations&p=328344&viewfull=1#post328344

It was German land alot earlier before it became Slavic and German again. Germanic tribes also occupied a large swathe of land typically occupied by Slavs today. You have to consider numerous probabilities. I know everyone wants clean answers, but thats not the reality.

We know E-V13 is most predominant in Albanians. But, we know not all E-V13 is Albanian. Try to apply the same approach.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:36 PM

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:37 PM

Make Dibran Slav again!

=Dibrański :laugh:

I am not a Slav. Just as much as an E-V13 Greek or Spaniard is not an Albanian. Nice try though.

Peterski

01-06-2018, 07:43 PM

It was German land alot earlier before it became Slavic and German again.

But it was depopulated during the Migration Period and settled by Slavs. Then it was colonized by Germans who mixed with and assimilated local Slavic population, but Germans settled especially along the Baltic coast. In more inland parts of Mecklenburg, Slavic was still spoken as late as 1648 AD. Because inland parts were only poorly colonized by Germans (as that guy, who is German, wrote). This map shows where the population was still Slavic-speaking in the 1500s-1600s:

https://s29.postimg.org/y03o0yyx3/Polabians.png

https://s29.postimg.org/y03o0yyx3/Polabians.png

About the depopulation of Eastern Germania during the Migration Period, read below. Summary of new research on the Migration Period in East Germany and westernmost Poland (Armin Volkmann "Siedlung – Klima – Migrationen: Geoarchäologische Forschungen zur Oderregion zwischen 700 vor und 1000 nach Chr. mit Fokus auf der Völkerwanderungszeit"):

https://www.academia.edu/1495365/Siedlung_Klima_Migrationen_Geoarchäologische_Forsc hungen_zur_Oderregion_zwischen_700_vor_und_1000_na ch_Chr._mit_Fokus_auf_der_Völkerwanderungszeit

"In the context of the study, an analysis in a GIS of sites from the Iron Age to the Early Middle Ages was applied to the River Oder Region. A site catchment analysis of the topographical setting, the soil and broader parameters was conducted as a GIS examination. In this the spatial data information in a probable operating radius around the respective settlements of the individual periods was collected and evaluated statistically. In this way, statistically significant climate proxies on the relative humidity index and temperature pattern of the paleoclimate could be demonstrated. Through the use of weighted average means it was possible to describe climate signals of the compared periods. The quantitative analysis of the data of more than 500 finding sites allows identifying significant signals. As a result I found out that at the end of the Iron Age and at the beginning of the migration period, dramatic climate fluctuations are recognized. The climate fluctuations are the main reason for emigration out of this region. In the migration period, and again at the end of the Iron Age, the region was virtually uninhabited for 250 years. The data from the site catchment analysis is in a next step the base for a predictive modeling with has clearly defined areas of high and low probabilities of finding sites.

A site catchment analysis of the topographical setting, the soil and broader parameters was conducted as a GIS examination, in which the spatial data information in a probable operating radius around the respective settlements of the individual periods was collected and evaluated statistically. In this way, statistically significant climate proxies on the relative humidity index and temperature pattern of the paleoclimate could be demonstrated. In addition, the deciding location factors of the soil and the geoecological environment of the settlement as well as distortionary anthropogenic and natural superimpositions were discussed. The ecological indicator values were rearranged into concise categories in a transformation process in consideration of their usability and informative value for matters concerning prehistoric, agronomically orientated cultures and checked for climate signals. The identified climate signals do not represent absolute data, but rather indirect, relative data, which permit comparative statements concerning the previous and subsequent level.
With the use of comparative climate research, palynology, dendrochronology, the status of glaciers, river levels and models of paleotemperature, the climate signals that were produced in the context of the GIS environmental analysis could be verified. In this way, the probability and concision of the environmental analysis developed here and its particularly detailed chronological value were substantiated.

The final step of the GIS analysis is based on Voronoi diagrams of the sites mapped as prehistoric space models. They show concepts of space in time. In a cartographic reconstruction of settlement clusters, the relationship between the anthropogenically influenced agricultural area and extensive natural forest areas was visualised. These methods are a part for the predictive modeling to clarify for example the most interesting regions of the settlements in the migration period.

In the early Migration Period (D), the climate worsened dramatically and weather became very cool and dry in the course of only a few decades. Very poor conditions for land cultivation and animal husbandry resulted from this, which withdrew their livelihood in many places from the Germanic groups engaged in subsistence agriculture. On this limited scale, this could be buffered by more intensive trade, like the piled material found on the site and documented by geomorphology on the aforementioned trade and transit routes Settlements in micro regional favoured areas with a guaranteed supply of water such as kettle lakes, for example, could continue to exist. Spatial analysis of settlements shows a strong shrinking of the settlement clusters to remaining areas in which agricultural activity was still possible. Thus, there is a great disparity of a juxtaposition of extremely unequal small scale economic potential, which led to the widespread disintegration of settlement clusters and the accompanying dismantling of settlements in the subsequent late Migration Period (E). Simultaneously, the areas of the extensive natural, potential forest communities that are not influenced by humans increased greatly, whereas in Period E only “islands of remnant settlements” still existed in the surrounding woodlands. These types of settlements are the same as those identified in the late Roman Iron Age, but they have degenerated to a very large extent. Likewise, the parallels in construction are striking, where long houses that were used by a larger settlement community, are very rare. In contrast, smaller residential buildings or barns and storage sheds are frequently in post construction as well as upright and probably log construction, which were used by smaller family alliances, often as individual hamlets.

In this way, the Germanic emigration from the Oder region is to be viewed as being organised into at least three main phases:

1. Already in the late Roman Iron Age there was a substantial migration in spite of the moist, warm climate of the favourable phase, which was triggered by the political weakness of the Roman Empire (the so-called imperial crisis of the soldier emperor with the fall of the Upper Germanic and Rhaetian Limes in 254 AD and the subsequent withdrawal of the border in the Rhine and Danube area) in the 3rd century AD and the related opportunities for plundering. This pulling effect of the Roman Empire which was rocked by crisis continued as a domino effect into the eastern Barbaricum in the Oder area. The Germanic migration is not just to be viewed as pointing to the southwest, however, as some Germanic people turned back again in a single cycle, as individual groups with particularly valuable pieces of furniture in late Germanic burial grounds clarify (the so-called “princely grave group of the Haßleben-Leuna- Häven type”).

2. In the early Migration Period, there is a dramatic worsening of the climate, which withdrew the foundation of the subsistence economy from large sections of the population which were characterized by agriculture. However, the political circumstances of the declining Roman Empire with the possibilities of seizing land and the existence of continuing opportunities to plunder increased the very intense migration of the late Germanic population from the Oder, mainly from Period D2, as numerous find sites from Period D1 are known. The high density of settlements in the moist Spree-Havel region, which was used as an intermediate stage in the south-westerly direction of the wave of migration is noticeable. The magnetic effect of the Roman Empire with its impressive, high-quality cultural assets in combination with the worsening climate in Barbaricum triggered an economically orientated wave of migration, which reached its peak in the 5th century AD (due to the simultaneous, political and military weakness of the-Roman Empire). Thus, undoubtedly, there was a heightened potential for conflict at the peak of the drought period, as is revealed by the incursions of Germanic peoples into the Roman Empire.

3. Despite the sharp rise in rainfall numbers in the late Migration Period (Period E), there was no certainty that grain could be harvested in the Oder region, as, on the one hand, the further reaching climate instability did not facilitate this due to torrential rain followed by temporary periods of drought and as, on the other hand, it must be assumed that there was an immense loss of expertise due to the preceding migration, particularly of the elite, younger and flexible sectors of the population. These problems were intensified even more by the heavy encroachment of scrub and the reforestation or partial desertification of the agricultural areas that were previously forsaken during Period D, as there was no potential labour force available for the agronomic re-cultivation of these fallow lands for labour intensive forest clearance measures (e.g. due to a positive population balance or birth surplus). Now, due to the relative increase in humidity as well, the Spree-Havel area, which had proven to be a favoured settlement area during the dry phase of Period D2, was of no agronomic interest. Up until Period E2 there was an almost complete dismantling of settlements in that area. Only in the northern part of the area being studied, an isolated remnant of the Germanic population whose economic basis is to be viewed as being linked to trade with Scandinavia to compensate for its non-productive agriculture is still also sporadically tangible in the 7th century AD (Period E3). In addition to that, however, all “remnants of Germanic traces” are located in only one diagonal strip of the very fertile marly soil which runs from north to south and is composed of a greatly varied biogeographical potential, which enabled flexible agriculture to be the primary source of income. The site where heaped material was found on both sides of the Oder in regions where there is black earth, with the most fertile soils and above all, an optimal groundwater level is of note. In addition, outside of the area under examination, as in the Magdeburger Börde, in the Thuringian Basin (Thüringer Becken) or in the Wetterau, an elevated incidence of finds from Period E is to be noted in these basin landscapes that are moulded by a relatively dry continental climate. There is a clear connection between the spatial distribution of the black earth and the late Migration Period sites."

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:45 PM

We know E-V13 is most predominant in Albanians. But, we know not all E-V13 is Albanian. Try to apply the same approach.

But in this case it is not so relevant, as it is known, that V13
is not ilirian, not slavic, not greek, not even Indoeuropean.

In the case of R*, which is IE, the scattering of subtype between
subgroups can be very confusing, as the last level common for this
groups were probably protoproto IE times. Even if some groups did
split monoclanicly (it is visible only in couple of clades) then later,
through 90% of history, were mixing constantly. So, it would be
relevant in such case to know, was such clade pre-slavic or not,
to determine evantual original dialectical subgroup of origin. But
it seems from genealogical and historical perspective, that slavic
wanderings are allready a very deep antiquity, as it is probably
impossible to say, what would be origin of such clade as yours.

It is also important to mention, that eventual deslavization could
happen of any moment between VI century and XIX (i dont know
how old is your known history), and even earlier, as I pointed in
earlier post of mine. So, I sometimes wonder, if there is sense of
debating such cases, as it never can be sure.

I am not a Slav.

Just it is not known yet :p
But maybe it will be finaly established :)

Peterski

01-06-2018, 07:46 PM

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:49 PM

........."

Well, I don't match those samples to begin with. Not until I see with Yfull if I do or form my own cluster(like the Cagliari sample). Regardless, I belong to L1029*, and share none of the downstream SNPs under L1029. Most of L1029 that is associated with the great migration are further downstream, which I lack.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:50 PM

As for that 1 sample from Norway - likely a descendant of German settlers from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (if you read about the history of Norway, you will see that many Germans settled there in Late Medieval and Early Modern times).

And even are at modern times.
Imagine, that they even established a society for foreign
nobility, which is not recognized by Fagingdom of Norway.
Few migrants wouldn;t be able to do so, as sociaty always
has to serve a larger group, than member themselves.
Examples from the Scandia shows also high german present.
For example, many "founding fathers" of uralic Finchuria were
actually Germans, and such city as Stockholm was yet in XVII
century mainly a german city. And these are just examples...

Peterski

01-06-2018, 07:51 PM

Check FTDNA Projects and see if there are other people with L1029* without any downstream SNPs.

Because Y-Full - of course - just lists some selected examples, it doesn't list all available samples.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:53 PM

But in this case it is not so relevant, as it is known, that V13
is not ilirian, not slavic, not greek, not even Indoeuropean.

In the case of R*, which is IE, the scattering of subtype between
subgroups can be very confusing, as the last level common for this
groups were probably protoproto IE times. Even if some groups did
split monoclanicly (it is visible only in couple of clades) then later,
through 90% of history, were mixing constantly. So, it would be
relevant in such case to know, was such clade pre-slavic or not,
to determine evantual original dialectical subgroup of origin. But
it seems from genealogical and historical perspective, that slavic
wanderings are allready a very deep antiquity, as it is probably
impossible to say, what would be origin of such clade as yours.

It is also important to mention, that eventual deslavization could
happen of any moment between VI century and XIX (i dont know
how old is your known history), and even earlier, as I pointed in
earlier post of mine. So, I sometimes wonder, if there is sense of
debating such cases, as it never can be sure.

Just it is not known yet :p
But maybe it will be finaly established :)

What part of I am not a Slav do you not understand? Or do you not understand your autsomal profile determines your ethnicity? Using your logic all E-V13 people are African. I think I won't take that approach.

To your earlier response My only close match at 1000 TMRCA is an Albanian. And My family has known history in our village for at least 5-600 years.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:53 PM

Dibran

01-06-2018, 07:56 PM

So now we see, that Dibran, does not only hate Slavs,
(as he is butthurted about such even theoretical or joking
possibility), but also is on good way to become albanian wannabe :laugh:
(if his result will turn to be definitly slavic of course)

No, its because you Slavs have a wet dream to make everything Slavic. Even if my ancestor was. it was 2000 years ago. Is an R1b African American European now because his paternal ancestor was a Slave owner? How stupid are you? I don't even cluster with Slavs to begin with.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 07:58 PM

What part of I am not a Slav do you not understand?

Are you normal? We are disscussing your result, and you
are butthurted about even joking you to be a Slav? Are
you crazy like rest of TA-albanians? I thought you are
one normal here... Last talk with you made me doubt it,
but now you are making it very clear. It is very sad, that
there is no normal people in Albania. Either muslim, either
hater, usualy a freak. don;t be like rest of your comerades.
The choice of course is yours. Us can make you normal, so
get the opporunity and be one.

Or do you not understand your autsomal profile determines your ethnicity?

absolutly this is not true, as long as you are not a mentaly castreted
sissy pantywaiste. Ethnicity is not a race. Can;t you understand it?

Using your logic all E-V13 people are African. I think I won't take that approach.

Why Africans? Didn;t you see, that I do not use such idiotic
continental terms. They have no meaning at all. Only butthurted
people like you, who don;t like Slavs or Africans can use them.

They are just themselvs: pre-IE Kasluchs (Pelagnians
if you prefer). At best Hamites or maybe Egyptians,
but there is no need for the last one, as they are
separated tribe since almost ever.

To your earlier response My only close match at 1000 TMRCA is an Albanian. And My family has known history in our village for at least 5-600 years.

Still long after Slavs came.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 07:59 PM

So now we see, that Dibran, does not only hate Slavs,
(as he is butthurted about such even theoretical or joking
possibility), but also is on good way to become albanian wannabe :laugh:
(if his result will turn to be definitly slavic of course)
He isn’t a Slav, its you who’s trying to make him into a Slav. He’s Albanian, anyone who even tries to argue this point is dumb imo

Peterski

01-06-2018, 08:00 PM

Most of L1029 that is associated with the great migration are further downstream, which I lack.

Maybe some of this L1029* came before the great Slavic migration, but it still doesn't exclude its Slavic origin. Because East Germanic tribes had contact with Proto-Slavic tribes in Ukraine and Belarus / Eastern Poland.

If you read Jordanes he recorded for example Gothic-Slavic contacts in Ukraine. Some Slavs as well as West Balts were most probably assimilated into East Germanic tribes during the 200s - 400s AD. It's not like Slavs just emerged out of nowhere in the 500s and 600s AD. There is even a lot of linguistic evidence for Slavic-Germanic contact zone / neighbourhood long before that. That sample from Cagliari for example looks like it could be from a Slavic or West Baltic lineage assimilated into the Vandals (correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC the Vandal Kingdom ruled over Sardinia for some time).

It's not a typical Germanic lineage for sure, definitely looks more Balto-Slavic.

Check also the distribution of its immediate ancestor, CTS11962.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 08:00 PM

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:02 PM

Are you normal? We are disscussing your result, and you
are butthurted about even joking you to be a Slav? Are
you crazy like rest of TA-albanians? I thought you are
one normal here... Last talk with you made me doubt it,
but now you are making it very clear. It is very sad, that
there is no normal people in Albania. Either muslim, either
hater, usualy a freak. don;t be like rest of your comerades.
The choice of course is yours. Us can make you normal, so
get the opporunity and be one.

You and your butt buddies on TA are a bunch of Pan-Slavists. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously? It is obvious by my OP that i acknowledge it most likely arrived with great migration Avaro-Slavs. That doesn't make me Slav. It only makes the earliest paternal ancestor Slav.

But what you seem to ignore is that I share none of the downstream SNPs under L1029 associated with the great migration events.

Kelmendasi

01-06-2018, 08:02 PM

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:06 PM

Maybe some of this L1029* came before the great Slavic migration, but it still doesn't exclude its Slavic origin. Because East Germanic tribes had contact with Proto-Slavic tribes in Ukraine and Belarus / Eastern Poland.

If you read Jordanes he recorded for example Gothic-Slavic contacts in Ukraine. Some Slavs as well as West Balts were most probably assimilated into East Germanic tribes during the 200s - 400s AD. It's not like Slavs just emerged out of nowhere in the 500s and 600s AD. There is even a lot of linguistic evidence for Slavic-Germanic contact zone / neighbourhood long before that. That sample from Cagliari for example looks like it could be from a Slavic or West Baltic lineage assimilated into the Vandals (correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC the Vandal Kingdom ruled over Sardinia for some time).

It's not a typical Germanic lineage for sure, definitely looks more Balto-Slavic.

Check also the distribution of its immediate ancestor, CTS11962.

I never disputed it Balto-Slavic origin. But Balto-Slavic and Slavic are different time frames.

I agree it was probably absorbed into Goths and or Vandals(in the Cagliari samples case).

What I am saying more specifically is that my branch lacks all the downstream SNPs associated with the great migration Slavs. So, I suspected the Balto-Slavic lineage was probably absorbed into a East Germanic tribe and carried into the Balkans at some point in time. Or its even possible(given the extent of land they spread) that it could have been absorbed and brought in by Bastarnae? Spit balling here.

Peterski

01-06-2018, 08:06 PM

Not only that but certain Germanic tribes had even settled in Slavic lands, an example is the Ostrogoths who stem from a group of Goths that settled in Ukraine

That's what I'm saying but Jordanes records fights between Ostrogoths and Antes, who were Slavic-speakers:

http://slavicchronicles.com/history/boz-the-first-documented-slavic-4ad/

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:10 PM

No, its because you Slavs have a wet dream to make everything Slavic.

I see you have some wet dreams, firstly, that slavs want to make everyone slavic, and second, that I am slav.
If you are making some acusentions, let it have some solid background and adequate addressee.

Even if my ancestor was. it was 2000 years ago.

If he was, you have to be very selfhating person then.

Is an R1b African American European now because his paternal ancestor was a Slave owner?

African-America-Europen??? What is it? Add yet Asian,
Australian, Antarctidian - to enumerate all continents.

How stupid are you?

How stupid are you, if you are disscussing with things, which I did not said?

I don't even cluster with Slavs to begin with.

Slavic butthurntess again.
If you would, then what?
Would you make a suicide? :picard2:

How stupid you are, if you are so much butthurted
about one joke about you being slav. You have to
be really some hatefull insecure bastard.

No sane person would be butthurted about a joke about
being of some ethnicity, the more - about such possibility,
as you established a thread just about it - about your own
provenance, not knowing what it can be. You are insane.

Make your stupid butthurtness yet longer...

kingjohn

01-06-2018, 08:11 PM

Make Dibran Slav again!

=Dibrański :laugh:

dibran cool results :thumb001:
rethel von rethelsky are you exited for dibran :)
do you look like him robust ?

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:12 PM

I see you have some wet dreams, firstly, that slavs want to make everyone slavic, and second, that I am slav.
If you are making some acusentions, let it have some solid background and adequate addressee.

If he was, you have to be very selfhating person then.

African-America-Europen??? What is it? Add yet Asian,
Australian, Antarctidian - to enumerate all continents.

How stupid are you, if you are disscussing with things, which I did not said?

Slavic butthurntess again.
If you would, then what?
Would you make a suicide? :picard2:

How stupid you are, if you are so much butthurted
about one joke about you being slav. You have to
be really some hatefull insecure bastard.

No sane person would be butthurted about a joke about
being of some ethnicity, the more - about such possibility,
as you established a thread just about it - about your own
provenance, not knowing what it can be. You are insane.

If you are going to be a child. Do not comment here. At least Litvino is being productive. Fuck off.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:14 PM

You and your butt buddies on TA are a bunch of Pan-Slavists.

:picard2:

So, your delusion soonly will claim, that I consider all TA-members Slavs?

That doesn't make me Slav. It only makes the earliest paternal ancestor Slav.

Ok, so then your son, will be not the same as you are.
Congrats sissy boy.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:16 PM

dibran cool results :thumb001:
rethel von rethelsky are you exited for dibran :)

Not now, as he disdeluded me, that he is only normal albanian on TA.

do you look like him robust ?

Nope. Rather slimest, but it depends on the weight at the moment :p

Peterski

01-06-2018, 08:16 PM

But Jordanes was a bit like Raine. He wrote some truths, but mixed with fairy tales. :D

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:18 PM

Yh we are all crazy because we don’t believe that the earth is 6,000 years old

Yet you did not explain, how do you know, that is 4 bln.
So, how your belive can be take seriously, as you do not know, how do you know this...

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:20 PM

Yet you did not explain, how do you know, that si 4 bln.
So, how your belive can be take seriously, as you do not know, how do you know this...

Take your bible earth is 6000 years old crap into another post. Either stay on topic or refrain from commenting.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:20 PM

Not now, as he disdeluded me, that he is only normal albanian on TA.

Aaa... sorry. Kalmendasi is yet quite normal
(or at least I did not yet see what he can do)
So, now he is the only albanian here...

Ülev

01-06-2018, 08:20 PM

Rethel is collecting thumbs down I see

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:21 PM

Take your bible earth is 6000 years old crap into another post. Either stay on topic or refrain from commenting.

I did not start it - so, change the adress.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:22 PM

But Jordanes was a bit like Raine. He wrote some truths, but mixed with fairy tales. :D

I imagine Bastarnae, they were a pretty loosely mixed tribal association. At least from my readings. They could have absorbed the branch in Eastern Europe. Which could explain why it lacks the downstream SNPs associated with the later migrations. Or as you suggested, a far earlier Slavic migration. Maybe with some of the earlier Slavic Mercenaries hired by Rome shortly before the first migration wave.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:23 PM

I did not start it - so, change the adress.

No, I am not changing the thread. How about you create your own thread about the age of the earth and fuck off. Either stay on the damn topic OR LEAVE.

Bosniensis

01-06-2018, 08:25 PM

Aaa... sorry. Kalmendasi is yet quite normal
(or at least I did not yet see what he can do)
So, now he is the only albanian here...

Kelimendasi is great, unlimited patience, can't provoke him, always responds on topic.

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:25 PM

No, I am not changing the thread. How about you create your own thread about the age of the earth and fuck off. Either stay on the damn topic OR LEAVE.

I said, that I did not start the topic about 6000 years - not about your thread, man. :picard2:
So, if you ahve some problems with that - say it to Kalmendasi, who mentioned it, not to me.

kingjohn

01-06-2018, 08:26 PM

dibran how much it cost ?
is it big y test in ftdna ?
or the test stears did for his y haplogroup to found specific clades ?
best regards
adam

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:28 PM

I said, that I did not start the topic about 6000 years - not about your thread, man. :picard2:
So, if you ahve some problems with that - say it to Kalmendasi, who mentioned it, not to me.

Kelmendasi made a point. You fed into it and made a discussion. Don't dicuss topics contrary to the OP. If you take issue with his statement, send him a message.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:30 PM

dibran how much it cost ?
is it big y test in ftdna ?
or the test stears did for his y haplogroup to found specific clades ?
best regards
adam

Hey Adam,

Its like the BigY at FTDNA but from FullGenomes. Slightly better, but lacks the matching that FTDNA has in their interface. It was $695, but they have 3 installment payment plan.

Anthr0

01-06-2018, 08:38 PM

In is impossible to say for sure, as there is none ancient samples.
Only assumption is that it came with Slavs, as it is mainly northslavic marker.

But who knows for sure, especially about incidental wanderings.

The OP shows no Slavic ancestry but shows obvious Italian/Sardinian input .. what we can conclude with this + the info he provided in this thread is that his ydna came from Italy/Sardinia with the Roman Empire and into the Balkans.

Op came from the ballsack of a Sardinian.

Thread closed.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:39 PM

But Jordanes was a bit like Raine. He wrote some truths, but mixed with fairy tales. :D

Btw,

The Bastarnae had heavy incursions into Thrace, during their war against Rome. This was in Augustan era (30 BC - AD 14), Which lines up roughly with the TMRCA of the branch. maybe a splintered branch that settled when they arrived in Macedonia. My family's history has been in the region for as long as we know. But, if we have any connection with Epirus Koci who went from there to west Macedonia, then I imagine maybe an Assimilated byzantine via an assimilated Avaro-Slav. I also read somewhere the first migration wave was less militaristic and more of a farming community. Perhaps early assimilated group into Byzantium before exchanging hands?

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:42 PM

Dick

01-06-2018, 08:43 PM

Theres a lot of L1029 here:

http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=R1a&lang=lat

Rethel

01-06-2018, 08:45 PM

Op came from the ballsack of a Sardinian.

The problem is, that sardinian samples came from somewhere too.
As there were slavic groups on Sicily, the same could be on Sardinia.
And yet, Vandals could take a bunch of Slavs with themselves, as they
did with Alans. Interesting is, that many vandalic names could be slavic.

Dibran

01-06-2018, 08:50 PM

Theres a lot of L1029 here:

http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=R1a&lang=lat

L1029* is not the same as L1029(which downstreams further from L1029*). Those samples are not L1029*. I lack all the downstream SNPs associated with L1029*. So I am grouped in L1029* at the top of yfull. I didnt upload the BAM yet. They said I would have that Monday. I either cluster and split off like the Cagliari sample or I match a SNP with one of them. Be it the Cagliari or German and Norway samples.

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 09:14 PM

The OP shows no Slavic ancestry but shows obvious Italian/Sardinian input .. what we can conclude with this + the info he provided in this thread is that his ydna came from Italy/Sardinia with the Roman Empire and into the Balkans.

Op came from the ballsack of a Sardinian.

Thread closed.

There is no way any Sardinian autosomal pull is related to his Y-DNA. His Sardinian pull has to do with his very limited admixture with non-Albanian groups. His Y-DNA is more than 2,000 years in the South and West Balkans. Unless you're proposing it came later than that to Albania. But we need some proof for that kind of statement. Which is why people need to stop taking Y-DNA so seriously. It is for historians to group them together and make some historical predictions, not for individuals to make predictions.

If people want to make predictions, at least make them on a historical context, and not a personal one, like Rethel did.

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 09:27 PM

....

CabOOM

01-06-2018, 09:29 PM

L1029* is not the same as L1029(which downstreams further from L1029*). Those samples are not L1029*. I lack all the downstream SNPs associated with L1029*. So I am grouped in L1029* at the top of yfull. I didnt upload the BAM yet. They said I would have that Monday. I either cluster and split off like the Cagliari sample or I match a SNP with one of them. Be it the Cagliari or German and Norway samples.

Is that what the * means? As in upstream?

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:02 AM

There is no way any Sardinian autosomal pull is related to his Y-DNA. His Sardinian pull has to do with his very limited admixture with non-Albanian groups. His Y-DNA is more than 2,000 years in the South and West Balkans. Unless you're proposing it came later than that to Albania. But we need some proof for that kind of statement. Which is why people need to stop taking Y-DNA so seriously. It is for historians to group them together and make some historical predictions, not for individuals to make predictions.

If people want to make predictions, at least make them on a historical context, and not a personal one, like Rethel did.

He means because the oldest sample with L1029* so far is from Sardinia. So he suspected that with my autosomal pull to Sardinia could explain it. It is just a theory, but given the lack of data for L1029* and how widespread it is, its as good a theory as any at this point lol.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:04 AM

Is that what the * means? As in upstream?

Yea. Its basically saying I am L1029 positive, but I lack all the downstream SNPs that developed. Hence the *. Most L1029(due to downstream SNPs) are alot younger. They seem to line up with Avar and Slavic movements during the great migration. Since I lack the downstream SNPs the TMRCA of basal L1029* is 2000 ypb. It could have still been brought by Avars and Slavs during the great migration. However, due to the lack of downstream mutations associated with the migration, there is a likely possibility it splintered off earlier. Given its widespread, it could have any number of possible scenarios. The Sardinian is at the top. And the only people who could have brought it there are Vandals Goths and Byzantines. If the migration to Sardinia was from mainland Italy, it could be from a Arbereshe/Greek that themselves came from The Balkans via maybe assimilated Avar/Slav(which is another scenario for how it got there). It really depends how far the history goes back for the Sardinan with L1029*

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 12:05 AM

The problem is, that sardinian samples came from somewhere too.
As there were slavic groups on Sicily, the same could be on Sardinia.
And yet, vadals could take a bunch of Slavs with themselves, as they
did with Alans. Interesting is, that many vandalic names could be slavic.

I dont believe OPs ydna is Slavic or Goth or whatever, it is either native Balkan or came from some other south euro country with some ancient empire and if it came from north its been there for atleast 2000 years.

Peterski

01-07-2018, 12:06 AM

The OP shows no Slavic ancestry

And he shows even less of Germanic ancestry, so nothing indicates that this Y-DNA is more Germanic than Slavic.

Autosomal DNA from 1 ancestor can be lost in a matter of several generations. Just do the maths. But Y-DNA stays.

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 12:19 AM

And he shows even less of Germanic ancestry, so nothing indicates that this Y-DNA is more Germanic than Slavic.

Autosomal DNA from 1 ancestor can be lost in a matter of several generations. Just do the maths. But Y-DNA stays.

Didnt say its germanic.

MyOrigins goes 2000 years back , it should easily pick up north west euro or east euro like it does with many people ive seen. Including some Albanians here.

We could test this with drawing slim who is i2a1b , see if he gets any east euro / north west euro on myorigins 2 since he scores 90% '++ Balkan on the others same as the OP but they dont go as far back ... im willing to pay for drawing slims test.. his paternal lineage was asimilated early into a proto Albanian population and the genes dilluted so we need a test that goes far back since hes really albo genetically now, even more than some albos with typical Albanian ydnas.

We could also see if ancestrydna picks up any north west euro but the east euro there is native Balkan based by far and it needs an update.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:21 AM

I dont believe OPs ydna is Slavic or Goth or whatever, it is either native Balkan or came from some other south euro country with some ancient empire and if it came from north its been there for atleast 2000 years.

I remember reading an article that found Rome(per the remains of Volcano that erupted) was far more genetically diverse than previously thought. Far more so than even NYC. Some of the remains came closer to north europeans. Rome was a melting pot society which many people seem to forget. They also established trade far and wide. It is just as likely that the lineage was absorbed by a germanic tribe that maybe had conscripts into the Roman army. Everyone just wants to look for a clean cut explanation. So, because M458 is predominantly slavic, they automatically assumed all of it came with Slavs. And, assuming it did come with Slavs. Given the TMRCA, it would have had to be either early mercenaries hired from Antes to fight the Huns, or the first sparse farming groups that settled in Greece and assimilated into byzantium. Maybe then it became arvanite, and then ended up in west macedonia before spilling into Diber Vogel, Albania.

My family has been isolated in Okshtun i Vogel for over 500 years. Okshtunali are extremely adamant against Slavs. I doubt my ancestor would have been accepted, unless they already arrived as Albanians.

They forget the insurmountable probabilities that occur as a result of war, trade, famine, politics, and many other things they seem to ignore.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:23 AM

Didnt say its germanic.

MyOrigins goes 2000 years back , it should easily pick up north west euro or east euro like it does with many people ive seen. Including some Albanians here.

We could test this with drawing slim who is i2a1b , see if he gets any east euro / north west euro on myorigins 2 since he scores 90% '++ Balkan on the others same as the OP but they dont go as far back ... im willing to pay for drawing slims test.. his paternal lineage was asimilated early into a proto Albanian population and the genes dilluted so we need a test that goes far back since hes really albo genetically now, even more than some albos with typical Albanian ydnas.

We could also see if ancestrydna picks up any north west euro but the east euro there is native Balkan based by far and it needs an update.

Sadly ancestryDNA provides autosomal based on matching and not actual DNA. A little disappointing. It has some level of accuracy, but if 1000 Slavs tested tomorrow and shared a relative with you, they would basically raise your East Euro based on the DNA relatives.

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 12:30 AM

Didnt say its germanic.

MyOrigins goes 2000 years back , it should easily pick up north west euro or east euro like it does with many people ive seen. Including some Albanians here.

We could test this with drawing slim who is i2a1b , see if he gets any east euro / north west euro on myorigins 2 since he scores 90% '++ Balkan on the others same as the OP but they dont go as far back ... im willing to pay for drawing slims test.. his paternal lineage was asimilated early into a proto Albanian population and the genes dilluted so we need a test that goes far back since hes really albo genetically now, even more than some albos with typical Albanian ydnas.

We could also see if ancestrydna picks up any north west euro but the east euro there is native Balkan based by far and it needs an update.

I have a R1a>Y35>YP4278>YP4441-A. Understudied branch which links me Herzegovina with a somewhat educated guess of 1000 TCMRA. MyOrigins picks up elevated Western Europe, which I'm assuming is some kind of Celto-Germanic at this point. No Eastern Europe, like the Y-DNA would suggest.

https://i.imgur.com/sxIxrS5.png

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:51 AM

I am just baffled why everyone is so quick to assume any R1a is Slavic, but seem to use common sense when differentiating from Different versions of E-V13. If Albanians claimed all V13 on earth was Albanian, everyone would obviously call bullshit. This is never the case with R1a. Where even a unique case like mine which lacks all the SNPs associated with the great migration, is still assumed to have come with the great migration. Yet the oldest sample is from Sardinia, and so far as I can see, Slavs don;t seem to belong to the upstream clades of L1029, but the further developed downstream mutations. Its definitely possible it did arrive in the great migration. But, given TMRCA, and 26 unique mutations I share with no one, and the lack of mutations that developed as a result of the migrations, brings into question the likelihood of the great migration scenario(in this case).

We already established its considered Balto-Slavic originally. But, this term didnt even come into fruition until the 1700s. We also know tribes were less compact and more mobile back then. They sure as hell didnt call themselves "balto-slavic". Balto-Slavs is also as close to Slavic as Albanian is to Proto-Albanian, which isnt even much. People also forget the same historic lands occupied by the Slavic tribes were occupied by earlier mix of Germanic and Paleo Balkan tribes. The Thracians expanded up to the southern Balts. Anything is possible. But considering even my Full Genomes found no close matches, and the closest of them was from 350BC, and my closest match is still an Albanian with a TMRCA of 1000 years. Then who the fuck knows? lol Sure, one can say OH OH you match slavs at y12, so its slavic!. Well, we would have split before the Slavs obviously formed, so whats to say our Y12 match even occupied the same space or spoke the same language? Culture and language are obvious social constructs. The only thing that can be said for certain about M458, is that its considered central corded ware. Or central European. But, now you have some of the oldest M458 popping up in Balkars in the Northern Kavkaz. They don't even speak Slavic. People just don't seem like they use any deductive reasoning when comparing modern cultural groups and borders to the movements of the past. All one has to do is look at the Y-DNA results of Arberesh and compare them to modern Albanians to see how much the consistencies of the lineages changed in only a time frame of 500 years. Now multiply that by 4(my TMRCA) and consider the possibilities, from individual migration, to any other scenario.,

Peterski

01-07-2018, 01:02 AM

MyOrigins goes 2000 years back

But we do not inherit autosomal DNA from all of our ancestors. Some auDNA gets lost during recombination.

And 2000 years ago you had so many ancestors that each of them contributed almost nothing in terms of %:

http://dgmweb.net/Ancillary/OnE/NumberAncestors.html

Peterski

01-07-2018, 01:06 AM

Here it is explained why and how all DNA from some ancestors can get lost:

https://dna-explained.com/2017/04/21/concepts-percentage-of-ancestors-dna/

Peterski

01-07-2018, 01:23 AM

I am just baffled why everyone is so quick to assume any R1a is Slavic

Yeah some people are quick to assume that. But others are even quicker to assume that any Non-R1a is Non-Slavic.

Meanwhile: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225194-Y-DNA-in-Early-Medieval-Poland

Summary of Y-DNA from Early Medieval Polish samples (tested so far):

ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384
GO_1, Gniezno (1000-1200 AD), R1b1a2-L150.1
NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621
NA_18, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), J2a1a-L26

So out of 4 Medieval samples so far there is one I2a-Din, one I1, one R1b and one J2. All of this in Slavic Poland.

Also I2a-Din from Slavic Russia (and not even South-Western Russia, check where Sunghir is located):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223690-Early-Medieval-Russian-DNA

Dibran

01-07-2018, 01:24 AM

Yeah some people are quick to assume that. But others are even quicker to assume that any Non-R1a is Non-Slavic.

Meanwhile: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225194-Y-DNA-in-Early-Medieval-Poland

I agree with you. There are slavic branches of E-V13, R1b, etc. People just seem to think history is a linear progression, and want to find one haplogroup for each people. Thats not reality. And thats why theres so much non-scientific bs thats peddled as fact.

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 01:39 AM

[... not quite sure if i get that theory

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 01:49 AM

Here it is explained why and how all DNA from some ancestors can get lost:

https://dna-explained.com/2017/04/21/concepts-percentage-of-ancestors-dna/

Ops has tested several of his family members, none of them show east europe or west europe afaik, i also agree that theres no such thing as noise , even smallest amount could reflect some distant ancestry but this is what the link you posted says:

You can see why people are always encouraged to test their parents and grandparents as well as siblings. You never know where your ancestor’s DNA will turn up, and each person will carry a different amount, and different segments of DNA from your common ancestors.

In other words, your great-aunt and great-uncle’s DNA is every bit as important to you as your own grandparent’s DNA – so test everyone in older generations while you can, and their children if they are no longer available.

Back to Great-Great-Grandma

Going back to great-great-grandma and her Native heritage. You may not show Native ethnicity when you expected to see Native, but you may have other resources and recourses. Don’t give up!

Ops father also showed some Sardinian?

I agree its best to test all family members , but the more mixed one is the more the odds it will show up obviously than if you just had one distant foreign ancestor.. the theory is about the latter trying to pick up one native ancestor , of course the less mixed one is the harder it is to pick up foreign ancestry.. such as only one distant foreign ancestor

Peterski

01-07-2018, 01:59 AM

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 02:06 AM

This branch is interesting, just downstream of L1029 and shows up in Poland and China:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC66325/

Maybe this guy had some fun with Chinese chicks despite being a Franciscan friar?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_of_Poland

But i find it interesting how ops father also showed Sardinian and supposedly oldest stream of his ydna or whatever is Sardinian ...

This surely cannot be a coincidence?

Peterski

01-07-2018, 02:06 AM

I have a R1a>Y35>YP4278>YP4441-A. Understudied branch which links me Herzegovina with a somewhat educated guess of 1000 TCMRA.

Its directly ancestral branch with 1850 ybp TMRCA is in Serbia, Czech Republic, etc.:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP4278/

BTW, here are two different estimates of percentages of R1a subgroups in Poland.

1. My estimate (I calculated it from FTDNA Projects):

R1a-M459 - 100,00% (sample size 1208), including:

---- M459* - 0,17% (2)
---- M198 - 99,83% (1206)
-------- M198* - 0,17% (2)
-------- L664 - 0,33% (4) - includes Korfanty family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojciech_Korfanty

-------- Z645 - 99,34% (1200)
------------ Z93 - 2,73% (33)
------------ Z283 - 96,61% (1167)
---------------- Z283* - 0,91% (11)
---------------- Z284 - 0,41% (5)

---------------- M458 - 46,03% (556), including:
-------------------- L260 - 24,83% (300)
-------------------- CTS11962 - 20,45% (247)
-------------------- other M458 - 0,75% (9)

---------------- Z280 - 49,25% (595), including:
-------------------- CTS1211 - 38,49% (465)
------------------------ CTS3402 - 30,05% (363)
------------------------ other CTS1211 - 8,44% (102)
-------------------- Z92 - 9,85% (119)
-------------------- other Z280 - 0,91% (11)

2. Estimates of Peter Gwozdz from his website:

(but this includes Polish Jews with R1a-Y2619)

http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

R1a-M459 - 100,00% of Polish R1a, including:

Z93 - 5,25%
--- Y2619 - 3,03% - typical for Ashkenazi Jews CTS6>Y2619 - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6/
--- other Z93 - 2,22%

M458 - 46,87% of Polish R1a, including:
---- L260 - 29,70%
-------- YP254 - 19,60%
------------ Y4135 - 3,43%
------------ YP414 - 8,48%
---------------- YP610 - 5,66%
---------------- YP589 - 2,83%
------------ Y2905 - 7,07%
---------------- YP1364 - 3,43%
---------------- other Y2905 - 3,64%
------------ other YP254 - 0,62%
-------- YP654 - 4,85%
-------- other L260 - 5,25%
---- CTS11962 - 16,57%
-------- L1029 - 12,53%
------------ YP593 - 3,84%
------------ YP444 - 2,42%
------------ other L1029 - 6,27%
-------- YP515 - 4,04%
---- other M458 - 0,60%

Z280 - 46,87% of Polish R1a, including:
---- CTS1211 - 37,37%
-------- CTS3402 - 32,12%
------------ Y33 - 14,34%
---------------- Y2902 - 6,67%
---------------- S18681 - 5,05%
---------------- L1280 - 2,22%
---------------- other Y33 - 0,40%
------------ YP237 - 13,54%
---------------- YP389 - 4,44%
---------------- YP977 - 3,84%
---------------- L269 - 2,02%
---------------- other YP237 - 3,24%
------------ Y2613 - 4,04%
---------------- Y2608 - 3,64%
---------------- other Y2613 - 0,40%
------------ other CTS3402 - 0,20%
-------- YP343 - 4,04%
------------ YP371 - 2,83%
------------ other YP343 - 1,21%
---- Z92 - 8,48%
-------- Z685 - 5,66%
------------ CTS4648 - 2,83%
------------ YP351 - 2,83%
-------- Z92 type E - 2,42%
-------- other Z92 - 0,40%

All other R1a - 1,01%

Peterski

01-07-2018, 02:17 AM

But i find it interesting how ops father also showed Sardinian and supposedly oldest stream of his ydna or whatever is Sardinian. This surely cannot be a coincidence?

Claiming that the oldest stream is Sardinian is wrong. It is just someone who lives in Sardinia today and carries this subclade. For comparison, a guy with one of the oldest streams of R1b (older than all of M269) now lives in Puerto Rico:

HG00640 - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L389/ - does it mean that R1b is Amerindian?

I see that they added another sample from Bulgaria. But for a long time, this Puerto Rican was the only known R1b-L389*.

Obviously that L389* is not Native to Puerto Rico. Just like this L1029* is not native to Sardinia.

If we assume that each haplogroup originated where it is most numerous today, then R1b-DF27 apparently originated in Latin America because it has an estimated 75 million carriers in Latin America and only 12 million in Iberia:

http://ecoanthropologie.mnhn.fr/DPHP2016/DPHP2016_plenary.htm

But obviously it was different in 1492 AD.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 02:19 AM

But i find it interesting how ops father also showed Sardinian and supposedly oldest stream of his ydna or whatever is Sardinian ...

This surely cannot be a coincidence?

It is also a mystery that me(and my father moreso) score more central Mediterranean than Italians do. Our scores are so atypical that it shifts us to Tuscans(due to them having elevated amounts). My father gets 35 percent "IT" in K36 while I get 32 Percent. The highest are Tuscans with 26. Interestingly alot of the Paleo Balkan samples had between 40-50 percent of this component. Perhaps this was due to the Isolation of our family in Okshtun i Vogel, and perhaps they retained higher amounts of it? I suppose other Okshtun folk would need testing to confirm it. Our values are highly atypical. My mother scores some slavic(shes from Puka), but its within Albanian average range. My father practically gets none. He has more of a Sardinian shift than I do. So, I suppose my moms genetics pulled me a bit back north, I still have a shift to Sardinians though. The Vandal and Goths did invade Sardinia. The Sardinian could easily be a remnant of a Germanic tribe. If his family is recent arrival from the Italian mainland, then it could have been an Arberesh or Greek. Arberheshe had more I2 and R1a then the distribution of modern Albanians. Diber was also settled by Germans in 900AD that could have carried it. Or perhaps Normans brought an absorbed L1029 individual. The Normans are integral part in our history, and they swept through Diber and were defeated there. If my clade was part of the great migration Slavs, this should be evident with downstream mutations shared with other Slavs. I have none of the downstream mutations associated with those migration patterns. So either was absorbed by Germanic or splintered off itself maybe was skilled in a sort of trade and offered work in Byzantium or Rome. People are so closed minded in how they view these events its like a kids with autism explaining science. Lol

Dick

01-07-2018, 02:23 AM

Its directly ancestral branch with 1850 ybp TMRCA is in Serbia, Czech Republic, etc.:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP4278/

It's celto-germanic, man. Come on.

This branch is interesting, just downstream of L1029 and shows up in Poland and China:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC66325/

Maybe this guy had some fun with Chinese chicks despite being a Franciscan friar?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_of_Poland

Friars needed love too.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 02:25 AM

Claiming that the oldest stream is Sardinian is wrong. It is just someone who lives in Sardinia today and carries this subclade. For comparison, a guy with one of the oldest streams of R1b (older than all of M269) now lives in Puerto Rico:

HG00640 - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L389/ - does it mean that R1b is Amerindian?

I see that they added another sample from Bulgaria. But for a long time, this Puerto Rican was the only known R1b-L389*.

Obviously that L389* is not Native to Puerto Rico. Just like this L1029* is not native to Sardinia.

If we assume that each haplogroup originated where it is most numerous today, then R1b-DF27 apparently originated in Latin America because it has an estimated 75 million carriers in Latin America and only 12 million in Iberia:

http://ecoanthropologie.mnhn.fr/DPHP2016/DPHP2016_plenary.htm

But obviously it was different in 1492 AD.

The point hes making is that any number of scenarios could exist, but people seem to adamantly be jumping on the typical "it cam from great migration Slavs" bandwagon. Just like you illustrated beautifully that some R1b is Slavic too, this could also be the case. Otherwise we should see numerous Slavs with basal L1029*, but they belong predominantly to more downstream younger SNPs that correlate to the time periods associated with the migration. With a TMRCA of 2000 years, it could have been Germanic absorbed, Dacian absorbed(considering around this time they still occupied lands which house quite diversified R1a today). Dacians occupied up to the Balts at one point. and around 100BC-100AD is roughly when they were extinguished by the Romans, maybe it slipped in that way too? I am not dealing any absolutes. But, considering I lack all downstream SNPs associated with these later migrations into the Balkans, it seem less likely that my ancestor arrived in the typical fashion.

Peterski

01-07-2018, 02:26 AM

It's celto-germanic, man. Come on.

Maybe these guys were right all along?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?73701-Are-Slavs-a-lost-East-Germanic-Tribe-like-Goths-Burgundians-and-Vandals-were

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218755-Why-are-East-Germanic-people-called-as-Slavs

One German even wrote a book claiming that Poles are just a lost and brainwashed East Germanic tribes who refuses to be ruled from Berlin. He called the idea that Poles and Sorbs might be Slavic "Slawenlüge" ("Slavic Lie") or "Slawenlegende" ("Slavic Legend"). Maybe Slavs just don't exist at all? Maybe Slavic was lingua franca of the Avar Khaganate?

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 02:50 AM

Its directly ancestral branch with 1850 ybp TMRCA is in Serbia, Czech Republic, etc.:

From what I was reading, it made its way from Hungary, where it formed.

It's celto-germanic, man. Come on.

Friars needed love too.

Why are you so but-hurt all the time, penis?

You can see how little it is studied here. Less than 1% of Balkans has this branch with a peak of 4% in Herzegovina, which is where my match comes from. Essentially, I'm predicted to fall into branch that is rare in the Balkans. On Y12, most of matches are coming from Germany, Russia, Ukraine, a ridiculous amount of Ashkenazi, etc. And my Celto-Germanic is related to my autosomal. Not my Y-DNA. Why does this but-hurt you? loll

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/

Dibran

01-07-2018, 02:54 AM

From what I was reading, it made its way from Hungary, where it formed.

Why are you so but-hurt all the time, penis?

You can see how little it is studied here. Less than 1% of Balkans has this branch with a peak of 4% in Herzegovina, which is where my match comes from. Essentially, I'm predicted to fall into branch that is rare in the Balkans. On Y12, most of matches are coming from Germany, Russia, Ukraine, etc. And my Celto-Germanic is related to my autosomal. Not my Y-DNA. Why does this but-hurt you? loll

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35/

Considering my predicted branch was wrong(not completely), there is a likely possibility you don;t belong to your branch at all. I know its money you probably don't want to spend, but FGC or BigY is the best way to go for definitive answers. You likely are Z280. but perhaps not the branch under Z280 you were predicted. After all, I was predicted YP515. Didnt turn out to be the case. Even Morely assumed I was more downstream then the actual result from FGC. Michal is yet to offer his intepretation of my results. Perhaps they differ from Albanian Bloodlines. I do not see how though, as both arrived to the same prediction off of my FTDNA results.

Dick

01-07-2018, 03:03 AM

Why are you so but-hurt all the time, penis?

And the ad-hominems begin. Still sour because I get zero Greek-Albanian on k29, eh? Congrats on your semen being little Slav swimmers. Hope you have many off spring, brate.

You can see how little it is studied here. Less than 1% of Balkans has this branch with a peak of 4% in Herzegovina, which is where my match comes from

Slavs live in Herzegovina, not celto-germanics. What's his name?

Essentially, I'm predicted to fall into branch that is rare in the Balkans. On Y12, most of matches are coming from Germany, Russia, Ukraine, a ridiculous amount of Ashkenazi, etc. And my Celto-Germanic is related to my autosomal. Not my Y-DNA. Why does this but-hurt you? loll

You think you're now special because you score west and central european on myorigins? Europa Nazione scores 33%, probably the most so far from anyone from the Balkans. It dosnt mean that he isn't a Serb and it has nothing to do with his y-dna.

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 03:03 AM

It is also a mystery that me(and my father moreso) score more central Mediterranean than Italians do. Our scores are so atypical that it shifts us to Tuscans(due to them having elevated amounts). My father gets 35 percent "IT" in K36 while I get 32 Percent. The highest are Tuscans with 26. Interestingly alot of the Paleo Balkan samples had between 40-50 percent of this component. Perhaps this was due to the Isolation of our family in Okshtun i Vogel, and perhaps they retained higher amounts of it? I suppose other Okshtun folk would need testing to confirm it. Our values are highly atypical. My mother scores some slavic(shes from Puka), but its within Albanian average range. My father practically gets none. He has more of a Sardinian shift than I do. So, I suppose my moms genetics pulled me a bit back north, I still have a shift to Sardinians though. The Vandal and Goths did invade Sardinia. The Sardinian could easily be a remnant of a Germanic tribe. If his family is recent arrival from the Italian mainland, then it could have been an Arberesh or Greek. Arberheshe had more I2 and R1a then the distribution of modern Albanians. Diber was also settled by Germans in 900AD that could have carried it. Or perhaps Normans brought an absorbed L1029 individual. The Normans are integral part in our history, and they swept through Diber and were defeated there. If my clade was part of the great migration Slavs, this should be evident with downstream mutations shared with other Slavs. I have none of the downstream mutations associated with those migration patterns. So either was absorbed by Germanic or splintered off itself maybe was skilled in a sort of trade and offered work in Byzantium or Rome. People are so closed minded in how they view these events its like a kids with autism explaining science. Lol

Not really close minded if you meant me, Im actually quite open minded.. I just never liked some racist Albanians here who used to claim they are pure Albos and now suddenly they be like autosomal dont matter once they got debunked or else i wouldnt give a crap what i even had in me. I am who I am. Its best to just let all this go although your ydna is interesting.

But you should of seen these people before you joined acting as if they are some proto type Albanian like some neo nazi group , and some are even too pussy to test

Your mother scoring slavic is interesting while you dont, it puts some truth to the link litvin posted and could be same case for many of us

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 03:03 AM

It is also a mystery that me(and my father moreso) score more central Mediterranean than Italians do. Our scores are so atypical that it shifts us to Tuscans(due to them having elevated amounts). My father gets 35 percent "IT" in K36 while I get 32 Percent. The highest are Tuscans with 26. Interestingly alot of the Paleo Balkan samples had between 40-50 percent of this component. Perhaps this was due to the Isolation of our family in Okshtun i Vogel, and perhaps they retained higher amounts of it? I suppose other Okshtun folk would need testing to confirm it. Our values are highly atypical. My mother scores some slavic(shes from Puka), but its within Albanian average range. My father practically gets none. He has more of a Sardinian shift than I do. So, I suppose my moms genetics pulled me a bit back north, I still have a shift to Sardinians though. The Vandal and Goths did invade Sardinia. The Sardinian could easily be a remnant of a Germanic tribe. If his family is recent arrival from the Italian mainland, then it could have been an Arberesh or Greek. Arberheshe had more I2 and R1a then the distribution of modern Albanians. Diber was also settled by Germans in 900AD that could have carried it. Or perhaps Normans brought an absorbed L1029 individual. The Normans are integral part in our history, and they swept through Diber and were defeated there. If my clade was part of the great migration Slavs, this should be evident with downstream mutations shared with other Slavs. I have none of the downstream mutations associated with those migration patterns. So either was absorbed by Germanic or splintered off itself maybe was skilled in a sort of trade and offered work in Byzantium or Rome. People are so closed minded in how they view these events its like a kids with autism explaining science. Lol

There is something these calculators are missing. From what I seen, some Albanians score more Atlantic, while some more Sardinian, and some more North Sea. These are either somehow connected or something is amiss. I'm sure someone has a smart answer, but it just shows how early it is to say anything conclusive.

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 03:06 AM

Dick

01-07-2018, 03:09 AM

You are seriously buthurt about something.

LOLL. WTF? you're the one that quoted me because I was being sarcastic about your claim that it's celto-germanic.

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 03:16 AM

LOLL. WTF? you're the one that quoted me because I was being sarcastic about your claim that it's celto-germanic.

My dude, you are a peanut brain.

I know you Serbs are used to being pussies, but don't be a bitch and hide.

Dick

01-07-2018, 03:19 AM

My dude, you are a peanut brain.

I know you Serbs are used to being pussies, but don't be a bitch and hide.

Don't insult your ancestor.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 03:21 AM

Not really close minded if you meant me, Im actually quite open minded.. I just never liked some racist Albanians here who used to claim they are pure Albos and now suddenly they be like autosomal dont matter once they got debunked or else i wouldnt give a crap what i even had in me. I am who I am. Its best to just let all this go although your ydna is interesting.

But you should of seen these people before you joined acting as if they are some proto type Albanian like some neo nazi group , and some are even too pussy to test

Your mother scoring slavic is interesting while you dont, it puts some truth to the link litvin posted and could be same case for many of us

Oh I didn't mean you brother. I meant the general TA audience that peddle fantasy for fact. They ignore all the possibilities and probabilities. Some of them are motivated by ethnic nationalism, which contributes to their distorted attempts at explaining genetics. I have to say, 90 percent of what I hear about any Haplo has never actually been confirmed by any real science. People tend to do what our ancestors did when they didn't understand the universe, they made shit up and filled in the "blanks". Thats exactly what happens here. Half these people on these forums believe the earth is only 6000 years old. One guy is Y-DNA tested and actually believes in immaculate conception. Theres no limit to the ignorance of people.

The truth is all indo european languages originate from one mother tongue. Albanian actually falls into the same Satem group of languages with Slavic. Look at Y-DNA results of Arberesh. They practically lack J2B, and had a quarter of the distribution of V13, that are 2 power house lineages in modern Albanians. They also had higher R1b-M269, and lower R1b-BY1161. Arberesh had higher I2a and R1a as well. This is only a span of 500 years. Multiply that by 3 or 4(the supposed time frame of proto-albanian formation, and then consider the possibilities? The lineages could have been far more distinct.

If R1b Albanians have a boom of fertility with V13 declining, just imagine the landscape 500 years from now? Assuming they exist as an ethnos, would they be less Albanian because they have fewer V13 now?

Don't worry yourself with some of the Albanians on here. There were plenty V13 southern Serbs who still killed Albanians all the same during the war. While my so called "slavic" ancestor, produced the likes of Elez Koci, who resisted the Bulgarians and died a martyr in Diber.

You're right to say autosomal genetics defines your ethnic affiliations. If I had my half sweden cousin tested, he wouldnt come up typically Albanian. Especially when part of his Scandinavian ancestry is Finnish as well. And if you go far back enough, R1b and R1a came from the same ballsack of some Siberian fuck called R1. It makes little difference. After all, Y-DNA literally is only responsible for coding proteins and useful for tracing migrations.

Alot of people on here thinks their YDNA makes them special. They would wet their undies all the same in real life. Its experience and hardship that molds a person. Not some long dead dude who probably would kill us if we took a time machine and told him we were his future seed lol.

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 03:25 AM

And the ad-hominems begin. Still sour because I get zero Greek-Albanian on k29, eh? Congrats on your semen being little Slav swimmers. Hope you have many off spring, brate.

Slavs live in Herzegovina, not celto-germanics. What's his name?

You think you're now special because you score west and central european on myorigins? Europa Nazione scores 33%, probably the most so far from anyone from the Balkans. It dosnt mean that he isn't a Serb and it has nothing to do with his y-dna.

LMAO. only ''Serbian'' ancestry Albanians have is from Montenigrins and they usually have same ancestry, they migrated into hercegovina, bosnia, serbia etc .. while youre not from that montenegro area but rather more Vlach shifted.. from herzegovina, dalmatia etc I always knew you were a Vlach from the first tine I saw you, I just recognised that Vlach face right away.

But you score Jewish though on others and seems also you have some Vlach ancestry tbh... maybe a vlach jew fucked your great grandmother lel

Explains maybe why youre fucking ugly since you dont get any Albanian ... if you got some you would be good looking , also if you tested your other relatives it would show obvious Albanian ancestry since you get Balkan but you got so butthurt about this that you started claiming bullshit... as if we are to believe this sardinian sicilian isnt actual vlach ancestry or something... maybe not albo but certainly vlach

You have obvious Vlach input, not necessarily directly from Albanians but certainly from a native population , Albanian like .. you must be delusional to not think this, Serbs have more Albanian / Vlach ancestry than Albanians on average have Slavic this is why many Serbs shift more south than unchanged north slavs.. dont understand much what is your point here, vlach boy.

Compare yourself to me, no east europe or west europe.... wooooow you certainly seem special... even then, it shows you that some slavs wanted to be Albanian without being pressured neccessarily compare this to natives being invaded and being forced to eventually asimilate... people who are r1a, i2a1b chose Albanians , they chose the good guys , .. the good looking people

Who said it makes him feel special? You seem quite OWD , you even bragged about being cucked by normans ... but youre a vlach maaaaan

Your clan is from vlachs dude, VLACH BOYYYYYYYY!!!!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA VLACH

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 03:28 AM

Don't insult your ancestor.

Eh? If anything, its Croatian or Montenegrin from 1,000 years ago. If even. LOLL This is all predicted

Do Haplogroups but-hurt you?

And you're talking about 1 line out of many, as was discussed earlier in this thread. AND autosomaly, Im far removed from Serbs and Croats.

Anyways, if you want stories I'll tell you stories of how my family killed Serbian soldiers with pitchforks. Let me know if you like these kind of stories. :D

Dibran

01-07-2018, 03:29 AM

There is something these calculators are missing. From what I seen, some Albanians score more Atlantic, while some more Sardinian, and some more North Sea. These are either somehow connected or something is amiss. I'm sure someone has a smart answer, but it just shows how early it is to say anything conclusive.

I think it just means what people really can't seem to accept, that no one is purely composed of any one set of components. Which is why you will have "typical" results, being the most common, atypical(like me and my father having elevated Central Med). Even my phenotype is somewhat atypical according to RoboCop. I am considered Dinaricized-Paleo-Atlantid. Not too typical for our area. Perhaps some of the components are at play. Then again my grand pappy on my fathers side was pinned as Dinaro-Pontid. And he has the Sardinian Shift more than me. He also had the same MTDNA as Kelmandasi, which could be typical of Dibran women. It was T1a1I or something, which was found in a supposed Thracian woman in Bulgaria. My fathers MTDNA is most common in Albanians Bulgarians and Serbs. Roughly the regions occupied to some extend by Thracians and Dacian. Borders collapse, some people become part of new ones. So much changes over time.

Dick

01-07-2018, 03:34 AM

LMAO. only ''Serbian'' ancestry Albanians have is from Montenigrins and they usually have same ancestry, they migrated into hercegovina, bosnia, serbia etc .. while youre not from that montenegro area but rather more Vlach shifted.. from herzegovina, dalmatia etc I always knew you were a Vlach from the first tine I saw you, I just recognised that Vlach face right away.

But you score Jewish though on others and seems also you have some Vlach ancestry tbh... maybe a vlach jew fucked your great grandmother lel

Explains maybe why youre fucking ugly since you dont get any Albanian ... if you got some you would be good looking , also if you tested your other relatives it would show obvious Albanian ancestry since you get Balkan but you got so butthurt about this that you started claiming bullshit... as if we are to believe this sardinian sicilian isnt actual vlach ancestry or something... maybe not albo but certainly vlach

You have obvious Vlach input, not necessarily directly from Albanians but certainly from a native population , Albanian like .. you must be delusional to not think this, Serbs have more Albanian / Vlach ancestry than Albanians on average have Slavic this is why many Serbs shift more south than unchanged north slavs.. dont understand much what is your point here, vlach boy.

Compare yourself to me, no east europe or west europe.... wooooow you certainly seem special... even then, it shows you that some slavs wanted to be Albanian without being pressured neccessarily compare this to natives being invaded and being forced to eventually asimilate... people who are r1a, i2a1b chose Albanians , they chose the good guys , .. the good looking people

Who said it makes him feel special? You seem quite OWD , you even bragged about being cucked by normans ... but youre a vlach maaaaan

Your clan is from vlachs dude, VLACH BOYYYYYYYY!!!!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA VLACH

What's up, IceT. You have it the wrong way. My mom's clan is Drobnjaci. My dad's paternal family has nothing to do with mountain clans.

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 03:36 AM

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 04:22 AM

I think it just means what people really can't seem to accept, that no one is purely composed of any one set of components. Which is why you will have "typical" results, being the most common, atypical(like me and my father having elevated Central Med). Even my phenotype is somewhat atypical according to RoboCop. I am considered Dinaricized-Paleo-Atlantid. Not too typical for our area. Perhaps some of the components are at play. Then again my grand pappy on my fathers side was pinned as Dinaro-Pontid. And he has the Sardinian Shift more than me. He also had the same MTDNA as Kelmandasi, which could be typical of Dibran women. It was T1a1I or something, which was found in a supposed Thracian woman in Bulgaria. My fathers MTDNA is most common in Albanians Bulgarians and Serbs. Roughly the regions occupied to some extend by Thracians and Dacian. Borders collapse, some people become part of new ones. So much changes over time.

It is racial politics and what has lingered of fascist mentality. These Serbs have convinced themselves for the last 150 years that they're racially pure, and now that they're the most mixed people in the Balkans, they feel but-hurt. It's what happens when commit crimes in the name of stupidity. loll

People are obviously mixed and there are different proportions of it but in a place like Albania that has seen minor outside input, you'd think the population would be more homogeneous. And to have a lack of the Eastern component but a varying degree of the different western components needs some kind of answer. It could just be the population is not fully homogeneous, but like Kelmendi's results for example. His 23andme is way different from FTDNA on some calculators. It may just be a measuring error.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 04:30 AM

Some other events in the domain of the Balkans around the time of my TMRCA. Whats great(despite it being Balto-Slavic) is that it occupied much of the same areas these other tribes swept through. Any number of possibilities exist. Could have been absorbed in the lower Danube by the Bastarnae, who were a loosely built tribal formation. They probably had alot of different groups in their ranks.

1st and 2nd centuries
It appears that in the final years of Augustus' rule, the Bastarnae made their peace with Rome. The Res Gestae Divi Augusti ("Acts of the divine Augustus" AD 14), a self-congratulatory inscription commissioned by Augustus to list his achievements, states that he received an embassy from the Bastarnae seeking a treaty of friendship.[77]

It appears that a treaty was concluded and apparently proved remarkably effective, as no hostilities with the Bastarnae are recorded in surviving ancient sources until c. 175, some 160 years after Augustus' inscription was carved. But surviving evidence for the history of this period is so thin that it cannot be excluded that the Bastarnae clashed with Rome during it.[Note 5] The Bastarnae may have been involved in the Dacian Wars of Domitian (86-88) and Trajan (101-102 and 105-106), since these took place in the lower Danube region and it is known that both sides were supported by neighbouring indigenous tribes.[original research?]

In the late 2nd century, the Historia Augusta mentions that in the rule of Marcus Aurelius (161-80), an alliance of lower Danube tribes including the Bastarnae, the Sarmatian Roxolani and the Costoboci took advantage of the emperor's difficulties on the upper Danube (the Marcomannic Wars) to invade Roman territory.[78]

3rd century
During the late 2nd century, the main ethnic change in the northern Black sea region was the immigration, from the Vistula valley in the North, of the Goths and accompanying Germanic tribes such as the Taifali and the Hasdingi, a branch of the Vandal people. This migration was part of a series of major population movements in the European barbaricum (the Roman term for regions outside their empire). The Goths appear to have established a loose political hegemony over the existing tribes in the region.

Under the leadership of the Goths, a series of major invasions of the Roman empire were launched by a grand coalition of lower Danubian tribes from c. 238 onwards. The participation of the Bastarnae in these is likely but largely unspecified, due to Zosimus' and other chroniclers' tendency to lump all these tribes under the general term "Scythians" - meaning all the inhabitants of Scythia, rather than the specific Iranic-speaking people called the Scythians.[79] Thus, in 250-1, the Bastarnae were probably involved in the Gothic and Sarmatian invasions which culminated in the Roman defeat at the Battle of Abrittus and the slaying of the emperor Decius (251).[80] This disaster was the start of the Third Century Crisis of the Roman empire, a period of military and economic chaos. At this critical moment, the Roman army was crippled by the outbreak of a second smallpox pandemic, the plague of Cyprian (251-70). The effects are described by Zosimus as even worse than the earlier Antonine plague (166-80), which probably killed 15-30% of the empire's inhabitants.[81]

Taking advantage of Roman military disarray, a vast number of barbarian peoples overran much of the empire. The Sarmato-Gothic alliance of the lower Danube carried out major invasions of the Balkans region in 252, and in the periods 253-8 and 260-8.[82] The Peucini Bastarnae are specifically mentioned in the 267/8 invasion, when the coalition built a fleet in the estuary of the river Tyras (Dnieper). The Peucini Bastarnae would have been critical to this venture since, as coastal and delta dwellers, they would have had seafaring experience that the nomadic Sarmatians and Goths lacked. The barbarians sailed along the Black Sea coast to Tomis in Moesia Inferior, which they tried to take by assault without success. They then attacked the provincial capital Marcianopolis (Devnya, Bulg.), also in vain. Sailing on through the Bosporus, the expedition laid siege to Thessalonica in Macedonia. Driven off by Roman forces, the coalition host moved overland into Thracia, where finally it was crushed by emperor Claudius II (r. 268-70) at Naissus (269).[83]

Claudius II was the first of a sequence of military emperors (the so-called "Illyrian emperors" from their main ethnic origin) who restored order in the empire in the late 3rd century. These emperors followed a policy of large-scale resettlement within the empire of defeated barbarian tribes, granting them land in return for an obligation of military service much heavier than the usual conscription quota. The policy had the triple benefit, from the Roman point of view, of weakening the hostile tribe, repopulating the plague-ravaged frontier provinces (bringing their abandoned fields back into cultivation) and providing a pool of first-rate recruits for the army. But it could also be popular with the barbarian prisoners, who were often delighted by the prospect of a land grant within the empire. In the 4th century, such communities were known as laeti.[84]

The emperor Probus (r. 276-82) is recorded as resettling 100,000 Bastarnae in Moesia, in addition to other peoples (Goths, Gepids and Vandals). The Bastarnae are reported to have honoured their oath of allegiance to the emperor, while the other resettled peoples mutinied while Probus was distracted by usurpation attempts and ravaged the Danubian provinces far and wide.[40][85] A further massive transfer of Bastarnae was carried out by emperor Diocletian (ruled 284-305) after he and his colleague Galerius defeated a coalition of Bastarnae and Carpi in 299.[86]

Later Roman empire (AD 305 onwards)
The remaining transdanubian Bastarnae disappear into historical obscurity in the late empire. Neither of the main ancient sources for this period, Ammianus Marcellinus and Zosimus, mention the Bastarnae in their accounts of the 4th century, possibly implying the loss of their separate identity, presumably assimilated by the regional hegemons, the Goths. Such assimilation would have been facilitated if, as is possible, the Bastarnae spoke an East Germanic language closely related to Gothic. If the Bastarnae remained an identifiable group, it is highly likely that they participated in the vast Gothic-led migration, driven by Hunnic pressure, that was admitted into Moesia by emperor Valens in 376 and eventually defeated and killed Valens at Adrianople in 378. Although Ammianus refers to the migrants collectively as "Goths", he states that, in addition, "Taifali and other tribes" were involved.[87]

However, after a gap of 150 years, there is a final mention of Bastarnae in the mid-5th century. In 451, the Hunnic leader Attila invaded Gaul with a large army which was ultimately routed at the Battle of Châlons by a Roman-led coalition under the general Aetius.[88] Attila's host, according to Jordanes, included contingents from the "innumerable tribes that had been brought under his sway."[89] One such were the Bastarnae, according to the Gallic nobleman Sidonius Apollinaris.[90] However, E.A. Thompson argues that Sidonius' mention of Bastarnae at Chalons is probably false: his purpose was to write a panegyric and not a history, and Sidonius added some spurious names to the list of real participants (e.g. Burgundians, Sciri and Franks) for dramatic effect.[91]

Dick

01-07-2018, 05:49 AM

LOLL

Laugh it up faggot. That poster is a perma banned and self proclaimed homosexual called IceT who keeps making socks that's still butthurt for over 2 years because I trolled him by saying he looks ugly. Truth hurts. It dosnt change the fact that your semen are Slavic boys.

CabOOM

01-07-2018, 06:07 AM

Laugh it up faggot. That poster is a perma banned and self proclaimed homosexual called IceT who keeps making socks that's still butthurt for over 2 years because I trolled him by saying he looks ugly. Truth hurts. It dosnt change the fact that your semen are Slavic boys.

How you could possibly know that it is Slavic? And why would a Slavic Y-DNA bother me? LOL You are seriously brain fucked man.
How does it feel to be a combination of Vlach sperm, Albanian sperm, German sperm, and Slavic Sperm? It's what all Serbs are really.

I will tell you the story:

During the Balkan Wars, the Serbs came to one of my grandparent village with guns, canons, and equipped to the max. They blew the houses with the cannons and wanted to kill the people and light it on fire. The men didn't have any arms, so they charged at them with pitchforks. Literally, pitchforks! While charging at them with pitchforks, a few of the Albanians died, but they killed a few Serbs. They got their guns, and killed a few more before the rest were chased off. True story.

Rethel

01-07-2018, 09:00 AM

One German even wrote a book claiming that Poles are just a lost and brainwashed East Germanic tribes who refuses to be ruled from Berlin

Interesting story, but in that case, why East Germans should want to be
ruled by West Germans, if even Nord Germans do not allow them to do so?

Was it maybe Kossina? No, he was too OGD...

Rethel

01-07-2018, 09:02 AM

Here it is explained why and how all DNA from some ancestors can get lost:

= so sense in austosomalism and ascendant equality after all.

Rethel

01-07-2018, 09:03 AM

This branch is interesting, just downstream of L1029 and shows up in Poland and China:

In mongolian period there were whole drużyny of russian ratników.
And some russians setteled there in newset centuries, and still are
recognized as one of official minorities, so nothing strange in it.

Kletus

01-07-2018, 10:43 AM

I dont believe OPs ydna is Slavic or Goth or whatever, it is either native Balkan or came from some other south euro country with some ancient empire and if it came from north its been there for atleast 2000 years.

shut up idiot, all R1A came from the steppes,the earliest it can come is from antiquity with the scythians and later be present in the slavs,balts,germans etc.. no R1A is native in the balkans.

Anthr0

01-07-2018, 10:46 AM

shut up idiot, all R1A came from the steppes,the earliest it can come is from antiquity with the scythians and later be present in the slavs,balts,germans etc.. no R1A is native in the balkans.

Make me, deymark?

Yes theres r1a that can be native and that came easily with bronze age migrations

Laberia

01-07-2018, 10:52 AM

Yup. Beautifully stated. The fact my line doesn't share the downstream mutations accumulated via migrations just shows my paternal ancestor didnt follow the herd. Quite proud of that solo straggler. W.e the fuck he originally was. He obviously found a hot piece of ass Albanian girl that made him reassess himself lololol. Maybe the earliest ancestor was a Vlach or some shit. You have M458* popping up in Balkars, which by their very tribal nature refuse marriage with Slavs. They themselves don't speak Slavic. People are quick to apply everything with broad strokes.

Little known fact. The Balsha clan was originally slavic Balsic, and rebelled together with Albanian clans against the Serbian King of the time. Only a few hundred years later, they were Balsha at the league of Lezhe. This is mentioned in the tribes of Albania book, with documented sources.

I found most of these trouble maker Albanian kids are young 20 somethings whose Albanian is as broken as my own(at least I admit it), and they are all middle class living in Scandinavian countries talking about how Albanian they are when they never lived there, and have no intention of returning. At least I am honest with that fact. Who wants to live a rough life? lol

Kids will be kids I suppose. My moms slavic is probably from her mom. She was from Shkoder on the border with Montenegro. Her paternal grandmother was a bride taken from a intermixed Albanian Montenegrin Tribe. Surname was peculiar though. "Pitsari' other variants include Picari. Thats probably where the slavic was transferred through. My MTDNA full sequence has a Italian a Norwegian an German and an unknown in our cluster. Some distant matches from all over the balkans and central europe too.
Balshaj were Albanians from the beggining. And you are an Albanian, like all of us.

Kletus

01-07-2018, 10:55 AM

Make me, deymark?

Yes theres r1a that can be native and that came easily with bronze age migrations

proof.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 11:30 AM

shut up idiot, all R1A came from the steppes,the earliest it can come is from antiquity with the scythians and later be present in the slavs,balts,germans etc.. no R1A is native in the balkans.
R1a came from the Steppes into Europe during the Bronze Age and far before the Scythians.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 11:38 AM

Kletus

01-07-2018, 11:42 AM

I love how Slavs always derail every thread. You peaked in the Middle Ages fuckers. Now get over yourselves. Point still stands. 90 percent of the bs peddled as fact on these forums is never supported or backed by any real science. Simple as that. It amazes me. It truly does.

You Slavs either productively stick to OP or take your bs tantrums into another thread.

El Litvino can stay. He’s been productive and serious this whole time.

And you peaked during Hoxha regime.
The problem is that when slavs came they were mostly men, on horse, and they conquered everything from Eurasia, while albanians conquer by making 8-10 children

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 11:44 AM

And you peaked during Hoxha regime.
The problem is that when slavs came they were mostly men, on horse, and they conquered everything from Eurasia, while albanians conquer by making 8-10 children
Not really, they were pushed into the Balkans by other invaders. Deymark you truly are sad, TA is like a life-line for you and it’s so sad

Dibran

01-07-2018, 11:44 AM

Balshaj were Albanians from the beggining. And you are an Albanian, like all of us.

Tribes of Albania is the book. And it’s written by Elsie. He was a fan of albsnians and them him. He has documented sources to prove it as well. Makes no difference. They still became and are Albanian. No ones anything from the beginning. Everyone comes from somewhere.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 11:47 AM

And you peaked during Hoxha regime.
The problem is that when slavs came they were mostly men, on horse, and they conquered everything from Eurasia, while albanians conquer by making 8-10 children

Unless you take a plane ticket to the USA to run your mouth to me in person, why don’t you go back to jerking off little boy. Leave the big subjects for the adults. Nothing worse than being a Romanian dog who licks Slavic ass despite how much they fucked your genetically discombobulated peoples.

Kletus

01-07-2018, 11:53 AM

Not really, they were pushed into the Balkans by other invaders. Deymark you truly are sad, TA is like a life-line for you and it’s so sad

.Medieval writings show slavs as the ultimate predators,having taken slaves from all the countries they conquered.Dont forget that more than half of europeans speak a slavic language.

Kletus

01-07-2018, 11:55 AM

Unless you take a plane ticket to the USA to run your mouth to me in person, why don’t you go back to jerking off little boy. Leave the big subjects for the adults. Nothing worse than being a Romanian dog who licks Slavic ass despite how much they fucked your genetically discombobulated peoples.

Tough boy, talking about slavs fucking someone, when based on his ydna ,he's the one raped by slavs.
I bet you want to go back in time and tell your mom to swallow.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 11:55 AM

.Medieval writings show slavs as the ultimate predators,having taken slaves from all the countries they conquered.Dont forget that more than half of europeans speak a slavic language.
I don’t care m8. It’s a fact though that they were pushed into the Balkans

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 11:57 AM

Tough boy, talking about slavs fucking someone, when based on his ydna ,he's the one raped by slavs.
I bet you want to go back in time and tell your mom to swallow.
Deymark, majority of your country has Slavic haplogroups. Its true though that you butt-lick Slavs.

Kletus

01-07-2018, 11:59 AM

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:01 PM

Tough boy, talking about slavs fucking someone, when based on his ydna ,he's the one raped by slavs.
I bet you want to go back in time and tell your mom to swallow.

Like I said. Come pay me a visit. Just know if you muster up the courage to do so, it will be the last time you walk the earth. Sure no one will care if a Romani gypsie goes missing.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 12:02 PM

The story of how Dibran was concieved

Dibran's mother: "O boi fuk my pidhin, ye jeni illir, my pidhin"
Dibran's father: "Idi nahuj pizdiec mumbles some unintelligible asian language you want it cyka"
You’re actually so sad Deymark, stop making socks on forums it’s on another level of being sad get a girlfriend or a job instead. As I said before Romania, in majority has Slavic Ydna so I guess what you said applies to you as well

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:03 PM

The story of how Dibran was concieved

Dibran's mother: "O boi fuk my pidhin, ye jeni illir, my pidhin"
Dibran's father: "Idi nahuj pizdiec mumbles some unintelligible asian language you want it cyka"

Come see me. NYC or NJ. Whenever you’re in town. Il come chop you up to pieces. But you Romanian dogs are too much of cowards to take this face to face.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 12:04 PM

Come see me. NYC or NJ. Whenever you’re in town. Il come chop you up to pieces. But you Romanian dogs are too much of cowards to take this face to face.
Just leave him he’s a sad kid, I mean he wants to be Germanic so bad that he considers himself Goth and not Romanian. Its actually sad af

Kletus

01-07-2018, 12:04 PM

Come see me. NYC or NJ. Whenever you’re in town. Il come chop you up to pieces. But you Romanian dogs are too much of cowards to take this face to face.

the only thing you can chop to pieces are mcchicken,you fat fuck
https://i.imgur.com/UFeJpQz.gif

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 12:06 PM

the only thing you can chop to pieces are mcchicken,you fat fuck
[IG]https://i.imgur.com/UFeJpQz.gif[/IMG]
Wasn’t funny whatsoever, just cringe

Kletus

01-07-2018, 12:06 PM

Wasn’t funny whatsoever, just cringe

the only cringe thing ITT is how OP and other albos circle jerk each other with "ITS okay bro, you're not slav, your ydna came from X ancient population"

You’re actually so sad Deymark, stop making socks on forums it’s on another level of being sad get a girlfriend or a job instead. As I said before Romania, in majority has Slavic Ydna so I guess what you said applies to you as well

you are only raped by your ydna, if your admixture is not in majority the admixture of your original ydna, in Dibran's case, R1a with very high med mix means he's raped

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:09 PM

the only thing you can chop to pieces are mcchicken,you fat fuck
https://i.imgur.com/UFeJpQz.gif

Mmhm. Offer still stands. Next time your gypsy ass is in the tri state are. Send me a email. You Romanians are pussies. All talk no bite.

Laberia

01-07-2018, 12:10 PM

Tribes of Albania is the book. And it’s written by Elsie. He was a fan of albsnians and them him. He has documented sources to prove it as well. Makes no difference. They still became and are Albanian. No ones anything from the beginning. Everyone comes from somewhere.

Elsie was a respected scholar for his contributions, but about Balshaj he is wrong. There is a small town in South Albania named Ballsh, the center of the region of Mallakastër and always has been called Ballsh from Balsha and not Ballshiç. Anyway, this can be discussed in other threads.

Dibran

01-07-2018, 12:11 PM

the only cringe thing ITT is how OP and other albos circle jerk each other with "ITS okay bro, you're not slav, your ydna came from X ancient population"

you are only raped by your ydna, if your admixture is not in majority the admixture of your original ydna, in Dibran's case, R1a with very high med mix means he's raped

Dude. We’re past words. Either come see me or pray to God to give you a spine. Pussy.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 12:12 PM

the only cringe thing ITT is how OP and other albos circle jerk each other with "ITS okay bro, you're not slav, your ydna came from X ancient population"

you are only raped by your ydna, if your admixture is not in majority the admixture of your original ydna, in Dibran's case, R1a with very high med mix means he's raped
Deymark, why do you keep coming back to TA? Its not like it’s a life-line or anything. Your ethnicity is like 50% Slavic in terms of Ydna so carry on chatting shit

Kletus

01-07-2018, 12:13 PM

https://img-hw.xvideos-cdn.com/videos/thumbs169ll/0b/4e/d3/0b4ed3c376e8998ae0774ec2c3576797/0b4ed3c376e8998ae0774ec2c3576797.1.jpg

Dibran's Life : Episode 1 Genesis

Laberia

01-07-2018, 12:14 PM

the only thing you can chop to pieces are mcchicken,you fat fuck
https://i.imgur.com/UFeJpQz.gif

Like the faggot that you consider as your national heroe?
Think about for a moment, after 20-30 years, our childrens who discuss here in this or other forums and you, with your xilion sockpuppet account stalking them from your hole in the sewers of Bucharest.

Laberia

01-07-2018, 12:16 PM

@Hevo.
Please bann this retard and delete all the posts of this idiot. Thanks in advance.

Laberia

01-07-2018, 12:18 PM

What kind of troll are you??

And what do you have with Rep. of Macedonia?

The worst of his kind. A sick and psychopathic individual.

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 12:19 PM

What kind of troll are you??

And what do you have with Rep. of Macedonia?
He’s the sad type of troll that has been brutally cucked by Serbs and Germanics to the point that he calls himself Germanic so that he will be accepted as white, he’s ashamed of his ethnicity basically

Kletus

01-07-2018, 12:26 PM

He’s the sad type of troll that has been brutally cucked by Serbs and Germanics to the point that he calls himself Germanic so that he will be accepted as white, he’s ashamed of his ethnicity basically

The worst of his kind. A sick and psychopathic individual.

@Hevo.
Please bann this retard and delete all the posts of this idiot. Thanks in advance.

Like the faggot that you consider as your national heroe?
Think about for a moment, after 20-30 years, our childrens who discuss here in this or other forums and you, with your xilion sockpuppet account stalking them from your hole in the sewers of Bucharest.

Deymark, why do you keep coming back to TA? Its not like it’s a life-line or anything. Your ethnicity is like 50% Slavic in terms of Ydna so carry on chatting shit

https://media.giphy.com/media/Hwq45iwTIUBGw/giphy.gif

Kelmendasi

01-07-2018, 12:27 PM

[IM]https://media.giphy.com/media/Hwq45iwTIUBGw/giphy.gif[/IMG]
SAD

Laberia

01-07-2018, 12:28 PM

I am the sexual slave of Bruce Lee, the king of the sewers of Bucharest.

Along with his brother Radu, Vlad the Impaler was raped at Adrianople (present-day Edirne), at the court of sultan Murad II, as punishment for disobeying the empire. In turn, Vlad raped Ottoman prisoners, being accused by church of "foul sodomy".
The sobriquet of Radu, Vlad the Impaler's brother (the Handsome, the Beautiful), results from effeminate traits and behavior of the prince.

Rethel

01-07-2018, 06:42 PM

Hehe... :laugh:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MQIAxGsbSPU/maxresdefault.jpg

Laberia

01-08-2018, 08:10 AM

Hehe... :laugh:

Retheloviç, cut this crap and stop derailing this thread. We don't need two Deymark here. Leave the people to discuss.

Kouros

01-08-2018, 07:47 PM

Nice results my dude

Dibran

01-08-2018, 08:53 PM

Nice results my dude

I am suspected(per Michal) to form a novel SNP upstream of YP263. However, the SNP is too unstable to be certain. I would need to test my close match from Gostivar. But, it depends if he agrees. Assuming he did it may or may not form our own cluster.

Peterski

01-08-2018, 09:04 PM

R1a in Montenegrins is nearly as low as it is in Ghegs.

But I2a-Din is just as Slavic as R1a, or perhaps even more Slavic since not all of R1a is Slavic.

Dick

01-08-2018, 09:08 PM

But I2a-Din is just as Slavic as R1a, or perhaps even more Slavic since not all of R1a is Slavic.

So is I1. There's Serbs that also match Belarussians and Russians on ftdna as well.

Bosniensis

01-08-2018, 09:15 PM

But I2a-Din is just as Slavic as R1a, or perhaps even more Slavic since not all of R1a is Slavic.

Of course it is, Slavic language is a language of Eastern Branch of I2 people.

R1a people took Slavic language from I2 people.

After all, there was a time when Ukraine, Poland were populated predominantly by I2 people (5-6k years ago), those people had to speak some kind of language (Slavic probably).

Slavic language just like all Balkan languages (Latin, Greek, Albanian) isn't Indo-Germanic (European) language.

Laberia

01-08-2018, 09:15 PM

All you do is look for fights over the internet. To provoke. You attack your own more than SHKI mut. And you are literally a young kid. So advise. Never run your mouth unless your willing to back it up in person. Every Albanian knows this. So don't ever call me a Slav again, unless you have intention of causing division and dispute with your people. If you do, I will more than gladly meet you if you visit. Otherwise, focus your energy on your actual enemies.

As for Noel Malcolm, I have found him more an intermediary doesnt really pick sides in his assessment. But, with regards to Elsie, theres actual medieval documented sources in the book. Its called the Tribes of Albania. On Amazon. A bit of a steep price, but worth it.

But Elsie is not the Pope of Rome. Not necessarily everything he said is the final truth.

Dibran

01-08-2018, 09:17 PM

Of course it is, Slavic language is a language of Eastern Branch of I2 people.

R1a people took Slavic language from I2 people.

After all, there was a time when Ukraine, Poland were populated predominantly by I2 people (5-6k years ago), those people had to speak some kind of language (Slavic probably).

Slavic language just like all Balkan languages (Latin, Greek, Albanian) isn't Indo-Germanic (European) language.

All indo-european languages are from indo europeans. Maybe when it was one language converging with some proto-cultures, it led to the diffusion. Also R1 is not the only lineage to be carried by Indo-Europeans. There was J2b discovered in the Volga, and now its believed V13 actually spread with Indo-Europeans at the start of the Bronze age.

Dibran

01-08-2018, 09:19 PM

But Elsie is not the Pope of Rome. Not necessarily everything he said is the final truth.

Of course. But half the shit Albanians post have no verifiable sources. Elsie provided medieval sources, some Ottoman. They go into the number of villagers in each FIS, surnames etc. Houses/clans that were totally wiped out by OTHER Albanian clans.

Caballero

01-08-2018, 09:23 PM

So your subclade is not associated with Slavic migrations? Interesting.

Dibran

01-08-2018, 09:28 PM

So your subclade is not associated with Slavic migrations? Interesting.

It is and it isnt. Michal suspects it still could have arrived with the Slavic migration, given L1029 is suspected to originate from the Baltics. However, since I lack all downstream mutations, it makes it more confusing. I belong to basal L1029*, TMRCA 2350ypb. No close matches in FGC. My closest is still a Yseq Albanian from Gostivar (1000ypb). We are suspected to form our own cluster. Still trying to test him(hopefully he agrees)

https://s14.postimg.org/rcvj3560h/image.jpg

Caballero

01-08-2018, 09:32 PM

Shqiptart nga Tetova/Gostivari kane ngjashmeri me juve Dibrant, edhe ne te folur. Ndoshta jeni kusherinj te larget.

Bosniensis

01-08-2018, 09:37 PM

All indo-european languages are from indo europeans. Maybe when it was one language converging with some proto-cultures, it led to the diffusion. Also R1 is not the only lineage to be carried by Indo-Europeans. There was J2b discovered in the Volga, and now its believed V13 actually spread with Indo-Europeans at the start of the Bronze age.

Latin, Greek, Albanian, Slavic emerged on Balkans, it's a location from where first Europeans emerged.

30.000 B.C. Anatolia was populated, while Indo-Europeans lived in Mongolia.

Indo-Europeans (R1a, R1b) lived beyond Ural mountains at that time.

Culture, Civilization, Languages came from ADVANCED cultures, and those cultures were MENA cultures.

Indo-Europeans ... they were illiterate and could hardly speak till 4th century. The only languages they know are languages they got from Balkan and MENA cultures they absorbed.

2000 B.C. when Greek languages were alive... what do you think where Indo-Europeans lived? Nowhere....

You keep repeating that Indo-Germanic theory where all European nations are Indo-Europeans... that's ridiculous.

Dibran

01-08-2018, 09:39 PM

Shqiptart nga Tetova/Gostivari kane ngjashmeri me juve Dibrant, edhe ne te folur. Ndoshta jeni kusherinj te larget.

Une mendoj se ndoshta haplogroup im ishte nga Epiri. Atje kishte Koci qe u vendosen ne kufirin e Maqedonise. Te gjith koci ne Maqedoni jan pjes e fisit ton. Shumices e Koci jan prej Okshtun i Vogel.

Dibran

01-08-2018, 09:41 PM

Latin, Greek, Albanian, Slavic emerged on Balkans, it's a location from where first Europeans emerged.

30.000 B.C. Anatolia was populated, while Indo-Europeans lived in Mongolia.

Indo-Europeans (R1a, R1b) lived beyond Ural mountains at that time.

Culture, Civilization, Languages came from ADVANCED cultures, and those cultures were MENA cultures.

Indo-Europeans ... they were illiterate and could hardly speak till 4th century. The only languages they know are languages they got from Balkan and MENA cultures they absorbed.

2000 B.C. when Greek languages were alive... what do you think where Indo-Europeans lived? Nowhere....

You keep repeating that Indo-Germanic theory where all European nations are Indo-Europeans... that's ridiculous.

I am sorry, but you're not a professional in this field. Professionals who dedicate their lives to the study of languages have found interlocking threads between all European languages. The only documented non-indo european language so far is believed to be Basque. Until you spent decades of study and research with at least an amateur background in the field, don't expect your wild theories to hold any weight.

Kouros

01-08-2018, 09:53 PM

heated thread

Bosniensis

01-08-2018, 10:05 PM

I am sorry, but you're not a professional in this field. Professionals who dedicate their lives to the study of languages have found interlocking threads between all European languages. The only documented non-indo european language so far is believed to be Basque. Until you spent decades of study and research with at least an amateur background in the field, don't expect your wild theories to hold any weight.

Well I feel pity for a people who believe that R1a and R1b who destroyed Roman Empire, murdered 60% of Europe gave birth to Greek and Latin language.

I feel pity for a people who believe that modern France, Germany are Autochtonic to their lands.

According to your "GREAT SCIENTISTS" WE, I2 people who represented 90% of entire European populace in 7th milenia B.C. we could not speak at all... we had to wait INDO-EUROPEANS
to arrive from URAL mountains and teach us how to speak.

Such a great theory.

Dibran

01-08-2018, 10:13 PM

Well I feel pity for a people who believe that R1a and R1b who destroyed Roman Empire, murdered 60% of Europe gave birth to Greek and Latin language.

I feel pity for a people who believe that modern France, Germany are Autochtonic to their lands.

According to your "GREAT SCIENTISTS" WE, I2 people who represented 90% of entire European populace in 7th milenia B.C. we could not speak at all... we had to wait INDO-EUROPEANS
to arrive from URAL mountains and teach us how to speak.

Such a great theory.

Well, I feel pity for uneducated people who use half their mental capacity in a conversation. I also feel pity for people with no professional scientific background who ignores decades of research and facts in favor of some bastardized concept of nativity given he "paleolithic DNA". You literally change your mind more times than I take shits in a day. Well, no, Proto-Europeans were not speaking kling-on if thats what you mean. They had languages, which were REPLACED by Indo-European. These languages didnt just diverge automatically. Through mixing and exchanging with proto-cultures, languages divided more and more. Others died out. etc.

Coolguy1

01-10-2018, 10:12 PM

Interesting haplogroup, what is the TMRCA with your nearest match?

Kelmendasi

01-10-2018, 10:21 PM

Interesting haplogroup, what is the TMRCA with your nearest match?
His closest match is an Albanian from Gostivar and they share a TMRCA of 1000 years iirc, they both seem to form their own “Albanian” clade within L1029

Coolguy1

01-10-2018, 10:25 PM

His closest match is an Albanian from Gostivar and they share a TMRCA of 1000 years iirc, they both seem to form their own “Albanian” clade within L1029

Very interesting that this clade is isolated from the main "Slavic" clades of R1a

Dibran

01-10-2018, 10:26 PM

Interesting haplogroup, what is the TMRCA with your nearest match?

My nearest Y37 match was an Albanian at 1000ypb TMRCA. My closest FGC matches were 2 Germans(idk from where) with a TMRCA of 2350ypb. So the Albanian guy is my closest match.

Peterski

01-10-2018, 10:41 PM

My closest FGC matches were 2 Germans (idk from where) with a TMRCA of 2350ypb.

They did not pin-point locations of their most distant ancestors? What are their surnames?

BTW, Rethel has an even more basal subclade of M458 than you.

IIRC, he has M458* without anything (!) downstream of M458.

Peterski

01-10-2018, 10:43 PM

Rethel has M458* IIRC. So we can say that Rethel is your "proto-daddy".

Dibran

01-10-2018, 10:46 PM

They did not pin-point locations of their most distant ancestors? What are their surnames?

BTW, Rethel has an even more basal subclade of M458 than you.

IIRC, he has M458* without anything (!) downstream of M458.

Idk. Unfortunately FGC can't disclose that information(per kit holder maybe). They were able to provide the country of origin but thats all. There was a third match that was closest after that. supposedly a Russian from Ural. TMRCA was 2600ypb. Th

As far as I understand M458* is typically found in central europe with cases in Balkars and Nogais. Perhaps M458* is Sarmatian. With them being absorbed, and later mutations forming as a result of being carried by other groups? I do recall Gimbutas is of the view that M458 is Baltic originally, and was absorbed by Slavs and Germanics.

Peterski

01-10-2018, 10:47 PM

R1a-Z280 (especially Z92+ but also other subclades) is actually way more common among modern Balts than M458.

Dibran

01-10-2018, 10:50 PM

R1a-Z280 is actually way more common among modern Balts than R1a-M458.

A good part of Belarus Russia and Poland was supposedly part of Proto-Baltic cultural zone. What haplo is common there now is irrelevant. Most of the mainland Balts(west balts) were consumed by Slavs and Germanics. Without sufficient ADNA samples its mostly speculation at this point.

Peterski

01-10-2018, 10:55 PM

Most of the mainland Balts(west balts) were consumed by Slavs and Germanics. Without sufficient ADNA samples its mostly speculation at this point.

But I do have Y-DNA from East Prussia (which includes descendants of original West Balts).

I compared Y-DNA frequencies of modern Lithuanians to those in my East Prussian sample:

Lithuanians (n=301) / East Prussians (n=84):

N1c - 40.53% (122) / 22.62% (19)
R1a - 42.19% (127) / 45.23% (38)
I2a - 2.33% (7) / 4.76% (4)
R1b - 4.32% (13) / 15.48% (13)
I1 - 4.65% (14) / 7.14% (6)
E1b - 2.66% (8) / 1.19% (1)
J - 1.33% (4) / 1.19% (1)
G - 1.00% (3) / 1.19% (1)
I2b - 0.33% (1) / 0.00% (0)
other - 0.66% (2) / 1.19% (1)

Total sample - 301 / 84

So, compared to Lithuanians, in East Prussia there was:

- 1.8 times less of N1c
- 2.2 times less of E1b
- 1.1 times less of J

- 3.6 times more of R1b
- 2.0 times more of I2a
- 1.5 times more of I1
- 1.1 times more of R1a

===========================
And when it comes to share of M458 in R1a:

Lithuanians (sample 127):

R1a(xM458) - 100 (= 78.74% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 27 (= 21.26% of R1a)

East Prussia (sample 33 + 5 unknown):

R1a(xM458) - 27 (= 81.82% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 6 (= 18.18% of R1a)

Unknown R1a - 5 (in total 33+5=38)

This map shows only R1a, N1c and I2a samples from East Prussia (list below):

https://s31.postimg.org/mfwjkq5or/Old_Prussian_R1a_surnames.png

^^^
List of samples from the map, with birthplaces of most distant known ancestors:

Haplogroup I2a:

kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)

Haplogroup R1a:

kit 145992 - Martin Kiehl, born in year 1760 in Stobiec (Stobbendorf)
kit 165792 - Johann M. Sommerfeld, born in 1750 in Tiegenort (Tujsk)
kit N2864 - Michael Flatau, born in 1800 in Alt Christburg (Stary Dzierzgoń)
kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, born in 1729 in Brodnica
kit 137403, Felyx Pruhs, born in year 1826 in Bratjan
kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern, born in Liebstadt (Milakowo)
kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski, born in 1824 in Rosenau (Różnowo)
kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, born in 1844 in Rogonnen (Rogajny)
kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek born in 1853 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit 175710 Georg Glass born in 1810 in Babanten (Babięty)
kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis, born in 1822 in Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg)
kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke, born in 1853 in Kaltwangen (Kalwagi)
kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke, born in 1883 in Buddern (Budry)
kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth, born in 1702 in Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo)
kit 153224 Leopold Lau, born in 1867 in Kompehnen (Niwy)
kit 200664 Simon Netke, born in 1686 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit 85285 Friedrich Lichtenstein born in 1870 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E4464 Karl Labinsky born in 1840 in Trempen (Novostreyovo)
kit E10941 Jablonski, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit B14462 Karl A. Rosenbaum born in 1830 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo)
kit 316853 August Czeranna, born in 1864 in Gross Schöndamerau (Trelkovo)
kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki, born in 1860 in Sensburg (Mrągowo)
kit E6115 Klaus born in 1935 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, born in 1750 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha, born in 1800 in Soldahnen (Soldany)
kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, born in 1769 in Lapienus (Łapinóż)
kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, born in 1830 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń)
kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, born in 1858 in Gotschalki (Goczałki)
kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, born b4 WW2 in Prioma (near Soldau/Działdowo)
kit N43077, NN born b4 WW2 in Panemune (Sovetsk)
kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, born in 1738 in Szypułki-Zaskórki (near Neidenburg)
kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski born in 1780 in Kutten (Kuty)
kit 145455 Scheffrahn, born in Rastenburg (Kętrzyn)
kit N7393 Reimer born in 1720 in Hoppenau (now part of Elbląg/Elbing)
kit 415060 Skubinna born in 1720 in Loyen (Łoje)
kit E10339 NN, born b4 WW2 somewhere in East Prussia
kit 426239 Kalinowski born in 1878 in Riesenwalde (Stańkowo)

Haplogroup N1c:

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman)
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slavyanskoye)
kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny) ---> this is actually N1b-L731 (not N1c)
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek)
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko)
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg)
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry)
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit)
kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Pushkino) or Stallupönen (Nesterov)
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinovoye (Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis)
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken (now in Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny)
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg)
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (near Olsztyn/Allenstein)
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo in East Prussia
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork)
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug (Šilutė)

==================

An attempt to divide East Prussian R1a into typically East Baltic and typically Slavic (based on modern distribution):

Typically East Baltic (modern distribution) and probably East Baltic (12 = 37.5%):

kit 329192 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y16755>YP4296
kit 221446 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
kit 157553 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
kit N2278 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP1700
kit 162556 - Z92>Y4459>YP5520

kits E4688 & N43077 (two samples) - Z92+

kit 161829 - S24902>YP561>YP4094>YP4078

kit 71994 - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258

kit 85285 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>YP5223
kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619

kit 426239 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335

Typically (modern distribution) East Slavic subclades (3 = 9.4%):

kit 316853 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP682
kit 415060 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP1256>YP4846

kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915

Typically West Slavic and probably West Slavic subclades (6 = 18.8%):

kit N1840 - M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>Y14244
kit B14462 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921>Y2914>Y20359

kit 145992 - M458+
kit 31553 - M458>PF7521>L260+
kit N5198 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029+

kit 200664 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314

Typically West Slavic, and specifically Pomeranian, subclades (3 = 9.4%):

kit 165792 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP389>YP4669
kit E9666 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP269>Y6956>L670
kit N7393 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243

Other typically Slavic (I guess "Pan-Slavic" ???) subclades (8 = 25%):

kit N18451 - CTS1211>YP343>YP340
kit 153224 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
kit 275076 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
kit 330940 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448
kit E4464 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273
kit 2546 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463 >YP1428*
kit 131361 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

kit 137403 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>YP515

==================

Other samples of East Prussian R1a (not included due to low-resolution SNP data):

kit E6115 - M512+
kit E10941 - M198+
kit E2656 - M198+
kit N2864 - M417+
kit 145455 - M417+

Peterski

01-10-2018, 10:58 PM

I collected those samples from FTDNA Projects of course.

====================================

List of N1 samples (19) included in the map, with FTDNA kit numbers:

kit 142919 (N1c-L1025)
kit N61024 (N1c-L1025)
kit 217892 (N1b-L731) ---> I added it to N1c, later I realized that it is actually N1b.
kit E13080 (N1c-L1025)
kit E9638 (N1c-L1025)
kit 202401 (N1c-L1025)
kit 179556 (N1c-L550)
kit 193848 (N1c-L550)
kit N42695 (N1c-L550)
kit 284236 (N1c-M178)
kit 147092 (N1c-M178)
kit 343953 (N1c-M232)
kit B42972 (N1c-L1025)
kit N58382 (N1c-L1025)
kit 183188 (N1c-L1025)
kit N23762 (N1c-L1025)
kit 173926 (N1c-L1025)
kit E2482 (N1c-L1025)
kit E8045 (N1c-L1025)

Dibran

01-10-2018, 11:02 PM

.......................+

If the year of birth is the year of sample, then its useless. I am talking of the Proto-Balts over 2000ypb. If you have ADNA from this time thats Z280 then I will agree. From my readings most of the original West Batlic peoples were eradicated by the 10-11th century CE roughly(give or take). I am not home but I can inbox you the book. its in PDF form. I have to look for the haplo stuff, but the PDF is more archaeology/history/linguistics. What can we be certain was the least invaded Baltic nation? Maybe that would be a start, for seeing which R1a is more prevalent. but I guess without ADNA its mostly speculative.

Peterski

01-10-2018, 11:12 PM

Here is a more detailed analysis of East Prussian N1 (19 samples):

East Prussian N1 (sample size = 19 people):

Clade Z16975 / FGC13372 = 7 people:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-Z16975/

kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), hg. N-Z16975
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek), hg. N-Z16975
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork), hg. N-L1025, probably N-FGC13372
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slawjanskoje), hg. N-L1025, probably N-FGC13372
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis), hg. N-Z16975

Y19113 subclade (one person):

kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken, hg. N-Z16975; Y19113+

Y6129 subclade (one person):

kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny), hg. N-Z16975; Y6129+

Clade L551 = 2 people:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-L551/

kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug, hg. N-L551
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko), hg. N-L551

Undetermined L1025+ = 8 people:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-L1025/

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg), hg. N-L1025
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit), hg. N-L1025
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinowoje (now Kaliningrad Oblast), hg. N-L1025
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg), hg. N-L1025
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (Warmia, near Olsztyn), hg. N-L1025
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo (near Tiegenhof), hg. N-L1025

Undetermined N1c1a+ = 1 person:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N1c1a/

kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Puszkino) or Stallupönen (Nesterow), hg. N-M178

Interestingly there is also one guy with N1b-L732:

kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny)

Here a map with locations of 2 other N1b carriers:

http://semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/171/

=============================

Based on that, the most numerous subclade of N1c in East Prussia is Z16975 / FGC13372.

This is a cousin of other Baltic subclades of N1c, and we can call it the Old Prussian branch:

http://i.imgur.com/liyBy1Y.png

http://i.imgur.com/2cBD3qc.jpg

But actually it is possible that it was also common among East Baltic tribe of Samogitians.

Dibran

01-10-2018, 11:15 PM

Peterski

01-10-2018, 11:18 PM

From my readings most of the original West Batlic peoples were eradicated by the 10-11th century CE roughly(give or take).

No, they were never eradicated, they were conquered by Teutonic Knights in the 13th century.

Later they were assimilated by German, Polish and Lithuanian settlers who migrated there:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=4459328&viewfull=1#post4459328

My estimate is that in the 1800s a significant part of East Prussians had West Baltic origin:

https://s17.postimg.org/5z2blsm33/East_Prussians_B.png

Baltic tribes, 12th century (this includes West Baltic tribes):

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a6/6b/54/a66b54c3e4caf23b3de74e138f6dfcf2.jpg

Old Prussian (West Baltic) language got extinct in the early 18th century (around 1710) according to Gerullis G., "Zur Beurteilung des altpreussischen Enchiridions", Streitberg Festgabe, Leipzig 1924, page 100 and Trautmann R., "Die altpreussischen Sprachdenkmäler", Göttingen 1910, page VIII. The last speakers of Prussian lived in the Sambian Peninsula.

The Sambian Peninsula was still majority Old Prussian-speaking as late as 1500-1600.

==================

Polish and Lithuanian immigration to East Prussia (from the 1400s and 1500s onwards):

http://s2.postimg.org/wtjscifjd/Ethnic_Prussia.png

Polish settlement (Polish settlers assimilated many Old Prussians):

http://s8.postimg.org/jacfd5e9x/image.png

Curonians and Lithuanians in Klein Litauen (eastern East Prussia):

https://i.imgur.com/Fpdk2jI.jpg

Lithuanian language area in East Prussia:

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/thumb/a/a7/Bild_Karte_Das_litauische_Sprachgebiet_in_Preussen .gif/900px-Bild_Karte_Das_litauische_Sprachgebiet_in_Preussen .gif

Dibran

01-10-2018, 11:21 PM

No, they were never eradicated, they were conquered by Teutonic Knights in the 13th century.

Later they were assimilated by German, Polish and Lithuanian settlers who migrated there:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=4459328&viewfull=1#post4459328

My estimate is that in the 1800s a significant part of East Prussians had West Baltic origin:

https://s17.postimg.org/5z2blsm33/East_Prussians_B.png

Baltic tribes, 12th century (this includes West Baltic tribes):

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a6/6b/54/a66b54c3e4caf23b3de74e138f6dfcf2.jpg

Old Prussian (West Baltic) language got extinct in the early 18th century (around 1710) according to Gerullis G., "Zur Beurteilung des altpreussischen Enchiridions", Streitberg Festgabe, Leipzig 1924, page 100 and Trautmann R., "Die altpreussischen Sprachdenkmäler", Göttingen 1910, page VIII. The last speakers of Prussian lived in the Sambian Peninsula.

The Sambian Peninsula was still majority Old Prussian-speaking as late as 1500-1600.

Thats only 200 somewhat years ago. There is no guarantee their modern haplogroups distribution is reflective of Proto-Balts 2k+ years ago.

Peterski

01-10-2018, 11:25 PM

Languages in the late 1500s (with Prussian-speaking Sambia - "obszary z przewagą języka pruskiego"):

http://www.mokrzyccy.pl/mapy/mapa18.jpg

http://www.mokrzyccy.pl/mapy/mapa18.jpg

Similar map still showing Prussian language area in Sambia:

http://oi52.tinypic.com/sgpr4g.jpg

Peterski

01-10-2018, 11:28 PM

They even published Martin Luther's catechism in Old Prussian language.

Kelmendasi

01-11-2018, 05:26 PM

Very interesting that this clade is isolated from the main "Slavic" clades of R1a
It seems to have come with them into the Balkans but then developed in isolation from the other clades

Rethel

01-11-2018, 06:14 PM

I do recall Gimbutas is of the view that M458 is Baltic originally, and was absorbed by Slavs and Germanics.

What has Gimbutowa to do with haplogroups at all? :shocked:

Dibran

01-11-2018, 06:44 PM

What has Gimbutowa to do with haplogroups at all? :shocked:

Well, A good part of Belarus, Poland, and Russia(near Urals) is considered a hotspot of Proto-Baltic settlement.

Dibran

01-11-2018, 06:59 PM

It seems to have come with them into the Balkans but then developed in isolation from the other clades

Likely, but uncertain. Time will tell. If NGS really becomes 100 dollars, that will make some huge strides. I know I would start testing more family lol.

Assuming it came with Avaro-Slavs invading Byzantium, the likely tribes were the Baiounitai and or the Dragouvitai. The Baiounitai settled in Epirus around Janina up to Central Albania(they would be the likeliest) and the Dragouvitai in Macedonia, NE Greece. Interestingly the Koci clan was supposedly from Janina or around there, before moving to West Macedonia(where it probably spilled over into Diber, Albania).

Rethel

01-11-2018, 07:27 PM

Well, A good part of Belarus, Poland, and Russia(near Urals) is considered a hotspot of Proto-Baltic settlement.

Yes, but it doesn;t mean, that she knew about haplogroups as you sugessted :p

Kelmendasi

01-11-2018, 07:29 PM

Likely, but uncertain. Time will tell. If NGS really becomes 100 dollars, that will make some huge strides. I know I would start testing more family lol.

Assuming it came with Avaro-Slavs invading Byzantium, the likely tribes were the Baiounitai and or the Dragouvitai. The Baiounitai settled in Epirus around Janina up to Central Albania(they would be the likeliest) and the Dragouvitai in Macedonia, NE Greece. Interestingly the Koci clan was supposedly from Janina or around there, before moving to West Macedonia(where it probably spilled over into Diber, Albania).
What about the Pershpalaj, are you gonna test them? And do you still think that the Koçi in Dibra descend from them?

CabOOM

01-11-2018, 07:48 PM

What about the Pershpalaj, are you gonna test them? And do you still think that the Koçi in Dibra descend from them?

My opinion is that Koci are too spread out to have come from somewhere. Not to say that it isn't true. Just that its more probable that they didn't come from somewhere, then having come from somewhere. At least not in the past 500 years. There is also the possibility that not all Koci are related, as Dibran explained once. This was apparently a title. Although this is definitely also a probability, I think it is unlikely as well.

Kelmendasi

01-11-2018, 07:59 PM

My opinion is that Koci are too spread out to have come from somewhere. Not to say that it isn't true. Just that its more probable that they didn't come from somewhere, then having come from somewhere. At least not in the past 500 years. There is also the possibility that not all Koci are related, as Dibran explained once. This was apparently a title. Although this is definitely also a probability, I think it is unlikely as well.
Yh, Koci is just a military title used by the Ottomans iirc. I was referring to the oral story that Dibran's family have which states that they come from the Pershpalaj of Mirdita

Dibran

01-11-2018, 08:18 PM

What about the Pershpalaj, are you gonna test them? And do you still think that the Koçi in Dibra descend from them?

Supposedly(per Trojet if I recall), someone claiming to belong to the fis Pershpalaj tested R1b. If this is in fact true, then it had to be a woman who married in. The other possibility(if we do come from them) is that it had to be a type of adopting. I remember reading it was common place in Mirdit for surviving members of allied houses that were wiped out(due to blood feuds) were adopted into an ally house. This is another scenario but I think less likely. We are most likely connected to the Koci of Epirus that moved to west Macedonia, and then into Diber. Because, todays Macedonian Koci are part of our Fis(though most of them are in Diber Vogel and Tirana).

Dibran

01-11-2018, 08:21 PM

My opinion is that Koci are too spread out to have come from somewhere. Not to say that it isn't true. Just that its more probable that they didn't come from somewhere, then having come from somewhere. At least not in the past 500 years. There is also the possibility that not all Koci are related, as Dibran explained once. This was apparently a title. Although this is definitely also a probability, I think it is unlikely as well.

Well, Koci in West Macedonia(where the Koci Epirus settled), and Koci in Albania(Diber Vogel and Central Albania), including some of our line that went to Arbanas in Bulgaria, and Istanbul in Turkey(17-1800s) are all part of our Fis. Koci outside of the aforementioned locations may or may not have anything to do with us.

CabOOM

01-11-2018, 08:33 PM

Well, Koci in West Macedonia(where the Koci Epirus settled), and Koci in Albania(Diber Vogel and Central Albania), including some of our line that went to Arbanas in Bulgaria, and Istanbul in Turkey(17-1800s) are all part of our Fis. Koci outside of the aforementioned locations may or may not have anything to do with us.

I agree with you about Koci in Diber Vogel and Macedonia. I'm not entirely confident of Epirus. Although I know it is a possibility. Another fis in our area, the Cami fis(just as big as Koci)also have some distant theories of having come from Epirus. Cameria to be exact. If it is true, I imagine their first line would have come as soldiers for Skenderbeu. This is all undocumented though. Just a wild theory. Now that I think about it, there is also a large fis, Duka. Duka exists in Laberia and not so much in Diber.
From our area they went to Arbanas and also Ukraine. They formed the Arberesh communities there, along with communities from Korca, Ohri, and Carmenika.

Kelmendasi

01-11-2018, 08:39 PM

Dibran

01-11-2018, 08:45 PM

I agree with you about Koci in Diber Vogel and Macedonia. I'm not entirely confident of Epirus. Although I know it is a possibility. Another fis in our area, the Cami fis(just as big as Koci)also have some distant theories of having come from Epirus. Cameria to be exact. If it is true, I imagine their first line would have come as soldiers for Skenderbeu. This is all undocumented though. Just a wild theory. Now that I think about it, there is also a large fis, Duka. Duka exists in Laberia and not so much in Diber.
From our area they went to Arbanas and also Ukraine. They formed the Arberesh communities there, along with communities from Korca, Ohri, and Carmenika.

There are no Koci left in Epirus. They went to Western Macedonia, per records. Also L1029 is more common in Epirus and northern Greek R1a where Baiounitai settled. Around Janina specifically(oddly enough this is where they were from too). As for the Duka, we are intermarried with some. There was also a Doukas that ruled in Moldova, after Vasil Kocis son lost power. Doukas married Vasil Lupu Koci's daughter. The same Doukas was supposedly from either Epirus or Macedonia. Maybe thats a connection for Duka?

CabOOM

01-11-2018, 08:59 PM

3 of my cousins are Cami from their mothers side

Very big and patriotic family from our area. There needs to be more recognition for them

CabOOM

01-11-2018, 09:03 PM

There are no Koci left in Epirus. They went to Western Macedonia, per records. Also L1029 is more common in Epirus and northern Greek R1a where Baiounitai settled. Around Janina specifically(oddly enough this is where they were from too). As for the Duka, we are intermarried with some. There was also a Doukas that ruled in Moldova, after Vasil Kocis son lost power. Doukas married Vasil Lupu Koci's daughter. The same Doukas was supposedly from either Epirus or Macedonia. Maybe thats a connection for Duka?

That is a really interesting story. I would really like to read more about it.

Duka I think is also a title. As in Duke. I know however that there is a region of Dukati in Laberia. Some people from this area have surnames Duka. However, this can easily be random convergence. The region of Dukati simply means, Land of Dukes, in a way.

Kelmendasi

01-11-2018, 09:59 PM

CabOOM

01-11-2018, 10:21 PM

The surname Duka comes from the title Duke in most cases, for example the surname Dukagjini means Duke Jean in English

Definitely! Completely forgot about Dukagjini. People form Dukagjini don't keep Duka last names, as far as I know. They do have Duka surnames in the south.

Good news is with genetics we will know with relative certainty in the near future.

Dibran

01-11-2018, 10:31 PM

Definitely! Completely forgot about Dukagjini. People form Dukagjini don't keep Duka last names, as far as I know. They do have Duka surnames in the south.

Good news is with genetics we will know with relative certainty in the near future.

Assuming world powers don't nuke each other in the near future lol. We can only hope.

Dibran

01-11-2018, 10:33 PM

That is a really interesting story. I would really like to read more about it.

Duka I think is also a title. As in Duke. I know however that there is a region of Dukati in Laberia. Some people from this area have surnames Duka. However, this can easily be random convergence. The region of Dukati simply means, Land of Dukes, in a way.

I have to look for the sources and I will post here. I actually have 2 DNA relatives from Moldova who supposedly claim descent to Doukas line. They are surnamed Polocoser. I half wonder if our autosomal connection is through Vasil Lupu Koci's daughter that married Doukas(their supposed ancestor). It seems like a number of scenarios could exist. Interesting nonetheless.

CabOOM

01-11-2018, 10:56 PM

I have to look for the sources and I will post here. I actually have 2 DNA relatives from Moldova who supposedly claim descent to Doukas line. They are surnamed Polocoser. I half wonder if our autosomal connection is through Vasil Lupu Koci's daughter that married Doukas(their supposed ancestor). It seems like a number of scenarios could exist. Interesting nonetheless.

Of-course post man. This is like historical gold. I have some Duka in my line.

Laberia

01-12-2018, 10:00 AM

3 of my cousins are Cami from their mothers side

Excuse me, you are talking here about the surname Cami or Çami?

Trojet

01-12-2018, 11:34 AM

I agree with you about Koci in Diber Vogel and Macedonia. I'm not entirely confident of Epirus. Although I know it is a possibility. Another fis in our area, the Cami fis(just as big as Koci)also have some distant theories of having come from Epirus. Cameria to be exact. If it is true, I imagine their first line would have come as soldiers for Skenderbeu. This is all undocumented though. Just a wild theory. Now that I think about it, there is also a large fis, Duka. Duka exists in Laberia and not so much in Diber.
From our area they went to Arbanas and also Ukraine. They formed the Arberesh communities there, along with communities from Korca, Ohri, and Carmenika.

3 of my cousins are Cami from their mothers side

I'm matching a Cami at 23andMe who is tested J2b2, who by all accounts should indeed be from the Dibra area. I have suggested he tests at FTDNA, but as usual, no response.

So if someone can find a Cami to test, I'm willing to pay for their FTDNA/YSEQ test ;)

Rethel

01-12-2018, 12:29 PM

I have some Duka in my line.

:picard2:

Dibran

01-12-2018, 12:44 PM

:picard2:

??? Duka is a surname of an Albanian family. What seems to be the problem?

Dibran

01-12-2018, 12:59 PM

Of-course post man. This is like historical gold. I have some Duka in my line.

I need to find the Duka information. A woman sent it to me when she found my matches with the Polocoser. Got to check my FB messages when I get home. It was over a year ago.

http://www.ocnal.com/2016/09/vasil-kocilupu-albanian-wolf-who-ruled.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Lupu

I wonder if Lupus line has any living descendants. Any Moldovans can chime in? If there are any living descendant of Lupu, I would very much like to test them to confirm if we are one and the same Koci.

The Illyrian Warrior

01-12-2018, 02:07 PM

Likely, but uncertain. Time will tell. If NGS really becomes 100 dollars, that will make some huge strides. I know I would start testing more family lol.

How much does it cost to do the full dna sequence bro?

Dibran

01-12-2018, 02:15 PM

How much does it cost to do the full dna sequence bro?

I did fullgenomes which was 700(divided into 3 payments). It is definitely way too pricey. At the time I got my tax returns so I said fuck it lol. But, if it really gets as cheap as 100, that would be amazing.

Kelmendasi

01-12-2018, 03:03 PM

Excuse me, you are talking here about the surname Cami or Çami?
The ones who have intermarried with my mothers family actually spell it as Cani, they are from Borove

Kelmendasi

01-12-2018, 03:05 PM

I'm matching a Cami at 23andMe who is tested J2b2, who by all accounts should indeed be from the Dibra area. I have suggested he tests at FTDNA, but as usual, no response.

So if someone can find a Cami to test, I'm willing to pay for their FTDNA/YSEQ test ;)
I will try and ask my uncles wife about it but that would be when I go to Albania, and I think she doesn't have any brothers but her father is still alive so I will try and persuade

Kelmendasi

01-12-2018, 03:06 PM

Definitely! Completely forgot about Dukagjini. People form Dukagjini don't keep Duka last names, as far as I know. They do have Duka surnames in the south.

Good news is with genetics we will know with relative certainty in the near future.
The Dukagjini family themselves do have Dukagjini as a surname, the tribes of Dukagjin though don't

Trojet

01-12-2018, 03:26 PM

I will try and ask my uncles wife about it but that would be when I go to Albania, and I think she doesn't have any brothers but her father is still alive so I will try and persuade

In that case you should probably get a few sample kits from YSEQ: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=225

And if you manage to get such a sample, I will pay for his actual test ;)

Laberia

01-12-2018, 05:52 PM

There are no Koci left in Epirus. They went to Western Macedonia, per records. Also L1029 is more common in Epirus and northern Greek R1a where Baiounitai settled. Around Janina specifically(oddly enough this is where they were from too). As for the Duka, we are intermarried with some. There was also a Doukas that ruled in Moldova, after Vasil Kocis son lost power. Doukas married Vasil Lupu Koci's daughter. The same Doukas was supposedly from either Epirus or Macedonia. Maybe thats a connection for Duka?
The surname Koçi you can find in whole Albania. For example there is one from Fier from the villages of Libofsha Ervin Koçi (https://www.scan-tv.com/kush-eshte-ervin-koci-kandidati-per-kryetar-te-amf-se/). He is Orthodox, myzeqar. But you can find Koçi in Shkodra, the two sisters Greta and Eni Koçi. In Vlora there is the Pass of Koçiut (https://mapcarta.com/18716014), etc.

Rethel

01-12-2018, 05:53 PM

??? Duka is a surname of an Albanian family. What seems to be the problem?

That he has some kind of Duka wannabeism.

Either somebody is Duka, or is not.

Laberia

01-12-2018, 06:01 PM

That is a really interesting story. I would really like to read more about it.

Duka I think is also a title. As in Duke. I know however that there is a region of Dukati in Laberia. Some people from this area have surnames Duka. However, this can easily be random convergence. The region of Dukati simply means, Land of Dukes, in a way.
Even with Duka is the same. There is the village of Dukat in Vlora, Dukas in Patos, Fier, etc. As a surname you can find again in all Albania. You can find in South, in Labëria but also in Central Albania and in North, Armando Duka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Duka), Agron Duka (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agron_Duka), from Shijak, etc.

Laberia

01-12-2018, 06:13 PM

The ones who have intermarried with my mothers family actually spell it as Cani, they are from Borove
In Peshkopi(Dibër) there are people with Cami and Cani surname, Tefta Cami (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefta_Cami), Shkëlqim Cani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shk%C3%ABlqim_Cani). Meanwhile the surname Çami i think is related to Çamëria Region, but not only. For example, Foto Çami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foto_%C3%87ami). I don`t know about Çami in North.
I think that from the Northern tribes, it is said that Kabashi are originary from Çamëria Region.

Trojet

01-12-2018, 06:30 PM

Even with Duka is the same. There is the village of Dukat in Vlora, Dukas in Patos, Fier, etc. As a surname you can find again in all Albania. You can find in South, in Labëria but also in Central Albania and in North, Armando Duka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Duka), Agron Duka (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agron_Duka), from Shijak, etc.

In a study of Aromanians, Dukas in Patos, Fier, has recorded the highest J2b2 percentage, at ~48%. All the haplotypes seemed to be related though, but with somewhat distinct markers such as DYS388=17 instead of the modal 15. I would be very interested to test one of them deeper at FTDNA or YSEQ.

The Illyrian Warrior

01-12-2018, 07:10 PM

In a study of Aromanians, Dukas in Patos, Fier, has recorded the highest J2b2 percentage, at ~48%. All the haplotypes seemed to be related though, but with somewhat distinct markers such as DYS388=17 instead of the modal 15. I would be very interested to test one of them deeper at FTDNA or YSEQ.

They are Gheg paternally conditionally say, I thought they have more diverse hgs and greater amount of exotic/non Albanian markers like I2a-Din and R1a.

Trojet

01-12-2018, 07:30 PM

They are Gheg paternally conditionally say, I thought they have more diverse hgs and greater amount of exotic/non Albanian markers like I2a-Din and R1a.

Possibly. Their J2b2 doesn't seem to be close to any Ghegs we have so far though. Their STRs suggest they could be under J-Y20899,PH2967, which is the most common J2b2 subclade under Ghegs, these SNPs start forming 4300 ybp though, and that's why deeper testing would be very useful: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

This is only for Aromanians from Dukas, Fier. As you can see on the following under Genetics section, their J is 48.7%. Per STR analysis all of it is J2b2, and they seem to be close to each other: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians

They obviously have some E1b1b, R1a, and a considerable amount of "I". Haven't looked into how much of it is I2a-Din though.

Kelmendasi

01-12-2018, 09:29 PM

PostOak1

01-12-2018, 10:21 PM

I’m a L1029. Aren’t most of the R1A’s in Bulgaria and Macedonia L1029? If so, that would explain a lot.

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Dick

01-13-2018, 02:26 AM

I’m a L1029. Aren’t most of the R1A’s in Bulgaria and Macedonia L1029? If so, that would explain a lot.

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You are paternally Bulgarian?

PostOak1

01-13-2018, 02:28 AM

You are paternally Bulgarian?

My furthest back L1029 patrilineal ancestor was from the German/Czech border

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Dick

01-13-2018, 02:29 AM

My furthest back L1029 patrilineal ancestor was from the German/Czech border

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He was from no man's land?

PostOak1

01-13-2018, 02:31 AM

He was from no man's land?

On the German side in Schneeberg

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Dick

01-13-2018, 02:42 AM

On the German side in Schneeberg

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Then I don't get your question. Why did you ask if most of the R1A’s in Bulgaria and Macedonia are L1029?

PostOak1

01-13-2018, 10:24 AM

Then I don't get your question. Why did you ask if most of the R1A’s in Bulgaria and Macedonia are L1029?

I had read somewhere that most of the r1a’s in Bulgaria and Macedonia were L1029. The OP is an Albanian L1029 and Albania is right next door to Macedonia.

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CabOOM

01-13-2018, 10:55 AM

I'm matching a Cami at 23andMe who is tested J2b2, who by all accounts should indeed be from the Dibra area. I have suggested he tests at FTDNA, but as usual, no response.

So if someone can find a Cami to test, I'm willing to pay for their FTDNA/YSEQ test ;)

I know they had a Facebook page, but I can't seem to find it. I will look for it tomorrow.

CabOOM

01-13-2018, 11:04 AM

The ones who have intermarried with my mothers family actually spell it as Cani, they are from Borove

Cani and Cami are two different families, I believe.

DIBRA LUFTON
(Shtator 1913)

Lufton Dani, Prenga, Ademi*
Për Shqipninë jetën e kemi
Nga e gjithë Lura vjen urdia
Në Viçisht u mblodh ushtria
Katolikë e myslimanë
Të bashkuar për vatanë
Dani e Prenga dhanë
kushtrimin
Prini trima për shqiptari
Flet Ademi nga Stebleva
Latif Musta nga Borova
Vjen Toptani me luftue
Vjen Zogolli me e ndihmue
Flakë merr Struga dhe
Gostivari
Ndër trimat Xhema i pari
Luftojnë Camajt për Shqipni
Bini burra shkjaut të zi

Ky Nezir e Zeqir Bojaxhi’
Dhanë jetën për liri
Për flamur dhe për atdhe
Edhe Camajt janë me ne.
Nga Stebleva në Viçisht
Që nga Lura në Selishtë
Luftojnë trimat dibranë
Nuk dihet se sa janë
Ndalu serb, ktu asht Shqipni
Asnji krajl s’ka mund me hy
Selam Labi thrret nga Vlora
Hej Dibër, ja bane fora.

*Dan Cami, Preng Doçi,
Adem Bojaxhiu

Adelina Gruda

In Peshkopi(Dibër) there are people with Cami and Cani surname, Tefta Cami (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefta_Cami), Shkëlqim Cani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shk%C3%ABlqim_Cani). Meanwhile the surname Çami i think is related to Çamëria Region, but not only. For example, Foto Çami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foto_%C3%87ami). I don`t know about Çami in North.
I think that from the Northern tribes, it is said that Kabashi are originary from Çamëria Region.

Cami have a large presence in Vicisht, Terbac, Gjorice. They are spread out in the whole area however, into Trebisht, Ostren, Stebleve, etc. It is difficult to go into these villages and not have at least one Koci and one Cami.

Even with Duka is the same. There is the village of Dukat in Vlora, Dukas in Patos, Fier, etc. As a surname you can find again in all Albania. You can find in South, in Labëria but also in Central Albania and in North, Armando Duka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armand_Duka), Agron Duka (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agron_Duka), from Shijak, etc.

I know Agron Duka is from the south, but I don't know where Armando Duka is from. He may be from the north.

CabOOM

01-13-2018, 11:12 AM

Then I don't get your question. Why did you ask if most of the R1A’s in Bulgaria and Macedonia are L1029?
fL1029 ormed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2000 ybp

The OP has a rare clade which is more than 2300 years TMRCA with this group.

Dibran

01-13-2018, 02:56 PM

fL1029 ormed 3200 ybp, TMRCA 2000 ybp

The OP has a rare clade which is more than 2300 years TMRCA with this group.

I had read somewhere that most of the r1a’s in Bulgaria and Macedonia were L1029. The OP is an Albanian L1029 and Albania is right next door to Macedonia.

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It would still most likely have arrived with early Sklavenoi like the Baiounitai, or East Germanics like the Ostrogoths during the Migration period. Definitely not later Slavs nation states. Most M458 in Albania and Greece seems to be from the migration. Not later.

I don;t know how old this maps data is, but it was posted 2 years ago or so on Eupedia. Perhaps the data is around the same time or older. This is supposed to be region by region(not country average).

https://s14.postimg.org/5u909rp8h/IMG_4445.jpg

Dibran

02-05-2018, 11:48 PM

H..........................

..........................................

W.......................

Finally got my Yfull matches. I blacked out the names, but it seems(despite them all being distant), I share the most SNPs with the sample from Italy, and then further down further distance.

https://s14.postimg.org/nrjt5hxg1/yfullmatches1.jpg

https://s14.postimg.org/rb5qvc2qp/yfullmatches2.jpg

Peterski

02-05-2018, 11:54 PM

Which region of Italy? Friuli-Veneto area or something else?

And which regions of Germany are these 2 top German matches?

Dick

02-06-2018, 12:00 AM

Finally got my Yfull matches. I blacked out the names, but it seems(despite them all being distant), I share the most SNPs with the sample from Italy, and then further down further distance.

What about your STR matches on yfull.

Dibran

02-06-2018, 12:02 AM

Which region of Italy? Friuli-Veneto area or something else?

And which regions of Germany are these 2 top German matches?

Cursor doesnt say. It just says Italy. If its the L1029 Italian, on yfull it says Cagliari. The German samples, one is from Mecklenburg the other doesnt list a location.

Dibran

02-06-2018, 12:04 AM

What about your STR matches on yfull.

Idk if its still in calculation(I assume it would say so), but currently have 0 close/distant STR matches.

Dick

02-06-2018, 12:13 AM

Idk if its still in calculation(I assume it would say so), but currently have 0 close/distant STR matches.

You should have at least distant matches. Have you tried ysearch? You can upload your markers there as well.

Dibran

02-06-2018, 12:15 AM

You should have at least distant matches. Have you tried ysearch? You can upload your markers there as well.

I can't even view my STR values. Says "While your sample is being processed...". I thought results are all available after payment? or does STR take longer? Maybe thats why I am not showing any matches,.

Dick

02-06-2018, 12:17 AM

I can't even view my STR values. Says "While your sample is being processed...". I thought results are all available after payment? or does STR take longer? Maybe thats why I am not showing any matches,.

You have to wait a bit for that.

Peterski

02-06-2018, 12:47 AM

The German samples, one is from Mecklenburg

Yeah I think it says Demmin (which is in Mecklenburg).

Dibran

02-06-2018, 12:15 PM

You have to wait a bit for that.

Yeah I think it says Demmin (which is in Mecklenburg).

Ok, so they finally posted my STR matches. so I only have 12 close matches. Though, I am not sure how close. If any of you can determine that based on the data in the chart that would be great. Otherwise I can always email the data. I also have 500 distant STR matches. If you guys think its relevant to post I can do so. Blotting out the names will take time though. My closest matches are Finland oddly enough lol. Then again Idk how far back the TMRCA is between us.

https://s10.postimg.org/ic1s3n7d5/strmatchesclose.jpg

The Illyrian Warrior

02-06-2018, 01:07 PM

Ok, so they finally posted my STR matches. so I only have 12 close matches. Though, I am not sure how close. If any of you can determine that based on the data in the chart that would be great. Otherwise I can always email the data. I also have 500 distant STR matches. If you guys think its relevant to post I can do so. Blotting out the names will take time though. My closest matches are Finland oddly enough lol. Then again Idk how far back the TMRCA is between us.

https://s10.postimg.org/ic1s3n7d5/strmatchesclose.jpg

I see a chinamen there :D, why it doesn't show TMRCA between you and listed people, with years not with meaningless numbers.

Dibran

02-06-2018, 01:46 PM

I see a chinamen there :D, why it doesn't show TMRCA between you and listed people, with years not with meaningless numbers.

Lolol. Disgrace my famaree! lol. Yea, idk why. The SNP matches list TMRCA. I wonder if anyone is able to determine the TMRCA by this chart.

Dibran

02-06-2018, 04:09 PM

You have to wait a bit for that.

Yeah I think it says Demmin (which is in Mecklenburg).

I see a chinamen there :D, why it doesn't show TMRCA between you and listed people, with years not with meaningless numbers.

Of course. All my Close matches are now gone. Now Yfull says I have only one close match(the China sample). Any reason why that is? How do I go from 12 to 1 lol.

Rethel

02-06-2018, 06:04 PM

You should have at least distant matches. Have you tried ysearch? You can upload your markers there as well.

Come on!
I waited almost 10 years for some real match.
I got him after many SNPs.
He is in similar situation, so he can not have so obvious one.