Pazyryk Scythian aDNA results (mtDNA) [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Proto-Shaman

01-13-2018, 05:13 AM

Germany so much Scythian girls?
https://i.imgur.com/8Hk5Ybx.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFil374YFKA

Pazyryk I0562 (Gedmatch M525514)
don't know which calc, just found in another forum.

0.00% Nilotic-Omotic
0.77% Ancestral-South-Ind.
17.32% North-European-Balt.
10.19% Uralic
0.88% Australo-Melanesian
26.93% East-Siberian
3.32% Ancestral-Yayoi
1.58% Caucasian-Near-East.
15.09% Tibeto-Burman
0.00% Austronesian
0.00% Central-African-Pygm
0.00% Central-African-HG
0.00% Nilo-Saharian
0.00% North-African
6.19% Gedrosia-Caucasian
0.00% Cushitic
0.00% Congo-Pygmean
0.00% Bushmen
2.67% South-Meso-Amerind.
1.05% South-West-European
2.33% North-Amerindian
0.00% Arabic
2.83% North-Circumpolar
3.48% Kalash
0.95% Papuan-Australian
4.41% Baltic-Finnic
0.00% Bantu

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tatar_Siberian @ 11,493219
2 Bashkir_East @ 13,875919
3 Altaian @ 15,544963
4 Kazakh @ 16,288718
5 Selkup_South @ 19,448022
6 Kalmyk @ 19,755137
7 Bashkir_West @ 21,548674
8 Buryat @ 24,515704
9 Khanty @ 25,967111
10 Mansi @ 26,604361
11 Tatar_Ural @ 26,67861
12 Chuvash_Viryal @ 27,817445
13 Tatar_Lithuanian @ 28,187209
14 Ket @ 28,803435
15 Mari @ 29,838714
16 Tatar_Kazan_Zelenodolskiy @ 30,055235
17 Tatar_Kazan_Apastovskiy @ 30,184787
18 Tatar_Kazan_Kaybitskiy @ 30,581006
19 Chuvash_Anatri @ 30,753692
20 Tatar_Kazan_Tarhanovskiy @ 31,849024
21 Tatar_Mishar_Bashkiria @ 32,032571
22 Tatar_Mishar_South_West @ 33,03821
23 Tatar_Mishar_Nizhniy @ 33,225047
24 Nogay @ 33,752482
25 Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 34,240884
26 Nenets_Forest @ 34,522503
27 Selkup_North @ 34,726857
28 Nenets_Tundra @ 35,385068
29 Udmurt @ 35,446287
30 Komi_Zyryan_SW @ 35,52655
31 Komi_Izhma @ 37,716944
32 Saami @ 38,245207
33 Russian_Vyatka_NE @ 38,351792
34 Russian_Baykal @ 38,563139
35 Russian_Ural_West @ 40,398133
36 Yakut @ 41,41742
37 Russian_Ural_East @ 41,694186
38 Moksha @ 42,144569
39 Russian_Mezen_Pinega @ 42,339541
40 Russian_Siberia @ 42,690694
41 Russian_North_Dvina @ 42,974154
42 Russian_Vyatka @ 42,977369
43 Erzya @ 43,276125
44 Russian_Solvychegodsk @ 43,458051
45 Russian_Tatarstan_Arsk @ 43,894158
46 Moldavian @ 44,019796
47 Russian_Kargopol_HGDP @ 45,170379
48 Romanian @ 45,312703
49 Kumyk @ 45,377123
50 Russian_Unzha @ 45,440283
126 iterations.

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calculations with...

Eurogenes K36:

https://www.gedmatch.com/gifs/M525514_20DBFB.gif
https://i.imgur.com/9ctkUiT.png

Mapping with Eurogenes K15:

https://i.imgur.com/ZF7UWvy.png

Similarity rate with Eurogenes K36:

https://i.imgur.com/e4INuhQ.png

Eurogenes K13:

https://i.imgur.com/pWBZSQf.png
https://i.imgur.com/4fvbWnw.png

puntDNAL K12 ancient:

https://i.imgur.com/KQwnxJs.png
https://i.imgur.com/XV3q1MY.png

puntDNAL K13:

https://i.imgur.com/ltGfOjU.png
https://i.imgur.com/mU3C18i.png

puntDNAL K15:

https://i.imgur.com/ZzT18K4.png
https://i.imgur.com/Fz7I0qQ.png

Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

https://i.imgur.com/wcWKx0j.png
https://i.imgur.com/wEHjXD9.png

Gedrosia K12:

https://i.imgur.com/SeZCns3.png
https://i.imgur.com/iYtth9Y.png

Proto-Shaman

01-13-2018, 05:14 AM

MDLP K11 Modern:

https://i.imgur.com/wc73Oam.png
https://i.imgur.com/7yKyQiN.png

MDLP K16 Modern:

https://i.imgur.com/wUEoule.png
https://i.imgur.com/s2YkPXe.png

MDLP K23b:

https://i.imgur.com/yaMiI1t.png
https://i.imgur.com/yON7sYO.png

MDLP World:

https://i.imgur.com/OdxDgJI.png
https://i.imgur.com/CzdUpZt.png

MDLP World 22:

https://i.imgur.com/8y7ZWOi.png
https://i.imgur.com/LOmbqiM.png

Leto

01-13-2018, 02:52 PM

Dodecad K12b

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 33.33
2 North_European 26.98
3 East_Asian 21.95
4 Gedrosia 7.56
5 South_Asian 3.37
6 Atlantic_Med 3.35
7 Caucasus 2.57
8 Southeast_Asian 0.7
9 Sub_Saharan 0.12
10 Southwest_Asian 0.07

62.6% Altai (Rasmussen) + 37.4% Chuvashs (Behar) @ 3.5

Basically they were very mongoloid long before the Mongol invasion. But the percentage of Aryan DNA is still very significant. Over 1/4 Northern European.

Leto

01-13-2018, 02:56 PM

Compare with these two Altai samples:

Kit Z682529

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 38.03
2 East_Asian 32.49
3 North_European 11.5
4 Gedrosia 8.59
5 Caucasus 3.72
6 Atlantic_Med 2.45
7 South_Asian 1.88
8 Southeast_Asian 1.2
9 East_African 0.14

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Altai (Rasmussen) 4.37

Kit Z656809

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 37.35
2 Siberian 34.33
3 North_European 12.07
4 Gedrosia 8.08
5 Caucasus 3
6 Southeast_Asian 2
7 South_Asian 1.73
8 Atlantic_Med 1.44

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Altai (Rasmussen) 9.17

They wuz Scythians.

Proto-Shaman

01-13-2018, 03:34 PM

Basically they were very mongoloid long before the Mongol invasion. But the percentage of Aryan DNA is still very significant. Over 1/4 Northern European.
Interestingly the most nearest ancient samples are Mal'ta1, Kostenki, Ust-Ishim and Andronovo at puntDNAL K12 ancient. Okunevo and Karasuk are also very near at MDLP K11 Modern. Looks like an Amerind-Siberian continuity.

Leto

01-13-2018, 03:38 PM

Interestingly the most nearest ancient samples are Mal'ta1, Kostenki, Ust-Ishim and Andronovo at puntDNAL K12 ancient. Okunevo and Karasuk are also very near at MDLP K11 Modern. Looks like an Amerind-Siberian continuity.
Weren't the Andronovo almost entirely Caucasoid?

Peterski

01-13-2018, 03:46 PM

Similarity rate with Eurogenes K36:

https://i.imgur.com/e4INuhQ.png

Hahaha more similar to East Slavs than to Turks from Anatolia. :rotfl:

Pennywise

01-13-2018, 03:51 PM

%40-50 East Eurasian.

Scythians wuz Indo-Yuropeen n shieet.

Böri

01-13-2018, 03:54 PM

Genetics and scientific modern anthropology eased things so much, to the point it couldn't be imagined only 10 years ago.

Gangrel

01-13-2018, 03:57 PM

thank

Sora

01-13-2018, 03:59 PM

Hint-Avrupacılar, her boku kendilerine bağlayanlar K U D U R U N!

Austrvegr

01-13-2018, 04:01 PM

%40-50 East Eurasian.

So much more East Eurasian than Anatolia's Turkified Kurdo-Armenians.

Leto

01-13-2018, 04:02 PM

%40-50 East Eurasian.

Scythians wuz Indo-Yuropeen n shieet.
The Pazyryk were obviously mixed. Western Scythians were much less East Eurasian.

Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 32.02
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.13
East_Asian 12.73
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 29.80
Natufian 25.33
Sub_Saharan -

Leto

01-13-2018, 04:05 PM

So much more East Eurasian than Anatolia's Turkified Kurdo-Armenians.
Bro, no Turkic nation is 100% mongoloid, maybe only some Yakuts are. I bet Cumans, Khazars and Huns were not even 50% East Eurasian. I used to think like yourself until I saw some actual Turkish samples. They are clearly a mix of Anatolian peoples and Turkmen-like and/or Nogai-like tribes.

Peterski

01-13-2018, 04:06 PM

%40-50 East Eurasian.

Scythians wuz Indo-Yuropeen n shieet.

Mexicans speak Spanish, an Indo-European language? Yes they do. But they are only 40-50% Spanish.

Pennywise

01-13-2018, 04:08 PM

So much more East Eurasian than Anatolia's Turkified Kurdo-Armenians.

Exactly you gopnik Slav subhuman. Because they are not like any modern populations genetically. The fact that Scythians had nothing to do with your swamp nigger ancestors is inflicting so much pain in your ass that you screech like a whore.

Besides, check out the Y-Search site and look at the matches of Pazyryk sample. Probably half of them are Anatolian Turks. :laugh: Even 2 Turkish members on this forum are matching with the Pazyryk sample. The results are becoming too thick even for your ruined Slavic ass hole, I must say.

Leto

01-13-2018, 04:14 PM

Sora

01-13-2018, 04:14 PM

So much more East Eurasian than Anatolia's Turkified Kurdo-Armenians.

Bro, you didn't wise up? Or you still insist? Didn't you see my post to you on this thread?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?232524-Classify-Kazakh-band&p=4901702&viewfull=1#post4901702

I'm leaving this here, If you still didn't wise up
http://i45.tinypic.com/112c4go.png

Also this
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2myu6u0.jpg

Pennywise

01-13-2018, 04:17 PM

The Pazyryk were obviously mixed. Western Scythians were much less East Eurasian.

Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 32.02
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.13
East_Asian 12.73
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 29.80
Natufian 25.33
Sub_Saharan -

I'm aware of that, the thing I am againt is that people use "Scythian" word as an umbrella term to lumb all the semi-nomadic steppe people from Eastern Europe to Siberia together and identify them as "Indo-European" by ignoring all the differences.

Böri

01-13-2018, 04:18 PM

http://oi60.tinypic.com/2myu6u0.jpg

:)

Who made this?
And that's based on what data?
Since when Armenians are 100% European?
They are closest to Assyrians, even more than they are to the West Asiatic Georgians.

Armenians are less than 10% European/North Euro genetically.
Turks are more than them for example.

Pennywise

01-13-2018, 04:20 PM

Mexicans speak Spanish, an Indo-European language? Yes they do. But they are only 40-50% Spanish.

Can you prove that Pazyryk people spoken an Indo-European language?

Leto

01-13-2018, 04:22 PM

I'm aware of that, the thing I am againt is that people use "Scythian" word as an umbrella term to lumb all the semi-nomadic steppe people from Eastern Europe to Siberia together and identify them as "Indo-European" by ignoring all the differences.
Well, the Scythian language and lifestyle/culture might have been adopted by mixed-race people of Eurasia, why not.

Leto

01-13-2018, 04:23 PM

Peterski

01-13-2018, 04:25 PM

https://s2.postimg.org/b1mkzjzh5/k36-scytosamrat.jpg

https://s2.postimg.org/b1mkzjzh5/k36-scytosamrat.jpg

And:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6nu45UX-Ny4/WLoqF71A80I/AAAAAAAAFYU/WSCdsWH6zvQHfZhBxtyD0OY6JMn5uVvmwCLcB/s1600/Iron_Age_nomads_Fig_7.png

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6nu45UX-Ny4/WLoqF71A80I/AAAAAAAAFYU/WSCdsWH6zvQHfZhBxtyD0OY6JMn5uVvmwCLcB/s1600/Iron_Age_nomads_Fig_7.png

Pennywise

01-13-2018, 04:29 PM

@Litvin, for the love of God, Allah, Tengri and your wooden-made swamp gods Perun and Veles, spare us from that retarded K36 calc. made by a Polak. That calc. is an absolute trash.

Peterski

01-13-2018, 04:31 PM

So use other calcs if you want. GEDmatch kit numbers are listed there. Sample Is2 is almost fully Caucasoid.

Peterski

01-13-2018, 04:34 PM

Can you prove that Pazyryk people spoken an Indo-European language?

I don't know. But remember that Pazyryk people were never actually called "Scythians".

The name Scythians was applied by Ancient Greeks to those living near the Black Sea.

Archaeologists started calling everything between Altai and the Black Sea "Scythians".

Leto

01-13-2018, 04:35 PM

So use other calcs if you want. GEDmatch kit numbers are listed there. Sample Is2 is almost fully Caucasoid.
They are deleted. I've tried 3 of them now.

Pennywise

01-13-2018, 04:36 PM

So use other calcs if you want. GEDmatch kit numbers are listed there. Sample Is2 is almost fully Caucasoid.

Somehow Pazyryk sample is removed from Gedmatch. Just tried that ID too, it says Kit number not found. In the OP, all the calc. results are listed anyway. I'm talking about the "Scythians" from Altai region, not the ones in Eastern Europe.

Peterski

01-13-2018, 04:40 PM

Those from the Altai region could be already Turkic-speaking if they had so much of Mongoloid admixture.

But we don't know for sure. It is possible that they preserved Iranic language despite mixing with Proto-Turks.

Böri

01-13-2018, 04:40 PM

Somehow Pazyryk sample is removed from Gedmatch.

Online coup. Literally.
Indo-Germen chauvinism.
Hell.

Leto

01-13-2018, 04:41 PM

Proto-Shaman

01-13-2018, 11:43 PM

Hahaha more similar to East Slavs than to Turks from Anatolia. :rotfl:
Calm down frustrated clown :rolleyes:

Similarity rates for other parts of the world with Eurogenes K36
https://i.imgur.com/OnfCamh.png
https://i.imgur.com/YmJoHGG.png

Pahli

01-13-2018, 11:57 PM

Eastern Scythians were Mongoloid mixed no shit, but we know shit about their language, so automatically assuming they are Turkic or Iranic without proof is retarded.

Scythians and Sarmatians were described as Caucasoid anyway, at least those that were living in Central Asia, Russia and Europe.

RN97

01-14-2018, 12:02 AM

%40-50 East Eurasian.

Scythians wuz Indo-Yuropeen n shieet.

They spoke a Indo-European language. From genetic data of Indo-Europeans, we know that they are more similar to Europeans than most modern people. Indo-Europeans would often conquer/ settle in a area, mix with the natives and create a civilization. This happened in India, Iran, Armenia and all throughout Europe among other places. It means that Schytians were to old (likely paternal) origin related to modern Europeans as Iranians among others are for example. It doesn't mean they were European racially. Likely a lot of the western Schytians were more like Europeans than the eastern ones. How much like us? IDK. I don't really care personally. However it's safe to say that the ones they got a large part of their culture from and their language were indeed indo-Europeans.

Pahli

01-14-2018, 12:12 AM

...

Lol, some of them were more North European than half of Europe lmfao

RN97

01-14-2018, 12:19 AM

Lol, some of them were more North European than half of Europe lmfao

Maybe that's the case. I think it's more correct to say "indo-European" rather than "north European". Welsh-like n. Euro is very different from Lithuanian like for example. On some genetic studies like the ones Litivn showed, some do have a lot of Yamnaya-like ancestry with quite little mongoloid.

Pennywise

01-14-2018, 07:00 AM

They spoke a Indo-European language. From genetic data of Indo-Europeans, we know that they are more similar to Europeans than most modern people. Indo-Europeans would often conquer/ settle in a area, mix with the natives and create a civilization. This happened in India, Iran, Armenia and all throughout Europe among other places. It means that Schytians were to old (likely paternal) origin related to modern Europeans as Iranians among others are for example. It doesn't mean they were European racially. Likely a lot of the western Schytians were more like Europeans than the eastern ones. How much like us? IDK. I don't really care personally. However it's safe to say that the ones they got a large part of their culture from and their language were indeed indo-Europeans.

The original Scythians spoke an Indo-European language, that is true. The ones in Altai region (Pazyryk people), not certain. Should they be called "Scythian" to begin with? That's an another question. But based on their genetic data, they seem to heavily mixed with Siberian/East Asian (most likely Turkic) populations and it is possible that they might have spoken Turkic. Or at least, we may assume they were bilinguals.

Pahli

01-14-2018, 07:43 AM

The original Scythians spoke an Indo-European language, that is true. The ones in Altai region (Pazyryk people), not certain. Should they be called "Scythian" to begin with? That's an another question. But based on their genetic data, they seem to heavily mixed with Siberian/East Asian (most likely Turkic) populations and it is possible that they might have spoken Turkic. Or at least, we may assume they were bilinguals.

I opt for this theory too.

blogen

01-14-2018, 07:56 AM

Calm down, guys. So much hatred about nothing. The Scythians were neither Slavic, nor Turkic. However, the actual Scythians might have looked like what we now call 'white'. No surprise, given that the Sintashta were definitely white (see the chart posted above by Litvin).
http://i46.tinypic.com/33nj58k.jpg

Pamiroid Hungarian girl:
https://i.img.ie/3Zm.jpg

Definitely not white, hovewer, looks swarthy caucasoid for the superficial observer (the white peoples are blonde haired, light eyed and skinned peoples, the dark hair is not white)!

blogen

01-14-2018, 08:02 AM

but we know shit about their language

What is not real, since we have lot of Greek and Roman sources about this language. Names (http://yarntheory.net/ursulageorges/names/iranianroots.html) or words (https://www.azargoshnasp.net/history/Scythians/indoiranianscythianelements.pdf) for example! Lot of words (http://www.jolr.ru/files/(140)jlr2014-11(81-90).pdf) and these language remains are clearly Indo-Iranians. So the Altay Scythians who were the direct ancestors of the European Scythian were Indo-Iranian speakers, no doubt.

Pahli

01-14-2018, 08:29 AM

What is not real, since we have lot of Greek and Roman sources about this language. Names (http://yarntheory.net/ursulageorges/names/iranianroots.html) or words (https://www.azargoshnasp.net/history/Scythians/indoiranianscythianelements.pdf) for example! Lot of words (http://www.jolr.ru/files/(140)jlr2014-11(81-90).pdf) and these language remains are clearly Indo-Iranians. So the Altay Scythians who were the direct ancestors of the European Scythian were Indo-Iranian speakers, no doubt.

Some of those names sound Hellenized, would be nice to know the original Indo-Iranian name

Böri

01-14-2018, 08:38 AM

Greek Byzantine chronicler princess Anna Comnena (11th century AD) describes both Pechenegs and Cumans, indicates close linguistic affinities and calls them Scythians.
There is no IE reference.

Rules and Violence / Regeln und Gewalt: On the Cultural History of Collective violence
edited by Cora Dietl, Titus Knäpper
page 92
https://i.hizliresim.com/rOm80V.jpg

I quote just to show Greek sources were always contradicting each other.

Now if we look from objective viewpoint, Scythians were diverse already by 6th century BC. There were different ethnos.
Scythians became synonym for steppe herding nomads; that means not an ethnic reference but a reference to people having a certain form of lifestyle.

Now but who were first Scyths: Turkic, Indo-European or Uralic? That can be discussed.

Pazyryk samples (2) with N y-dna and strongly Siberian autosomal strengthens the Turkic theory.

Beside let's not forget that Scythian religion and burial rites were Turkic-like. Like burrying horses with dead humans, you don't see that in Iranic paganism.

blogen

01-14-2018, 09:20 AM

Pahli

01-14-2018, 09:22 AM

Scythians were referred to as "Saka" in Iranian sources, the Turks were not, for a good reason.

Böri

01-14-2018, 09:35 AM

Pahli

01-14-2018, 09:41 AM

Scythians had certainly some Iranic elements.
But were they all Iranic? Were they mainly Iranic?
Doubtful.

If it was such, there wouldn't be Iran-Scythian wars like that famous with Massagatea (Cyrhus).
Scythians and Iranians were enemies. To the level 2 related nations couldn't be. Scythian religion was different from the Indo-Iranian Zoroastrianism or Mithraism. That's also a strong point for difference.

Iranians (Medes and Acheamenid later) were given civilization by Semitic Assyrians.
The source of the Iranian Aryan civilization of Medes and Acheamenid is Semitic agriculturalism.
Not steppe pastoralism like were Scythians.

You cannot use this as an argument, even Turkic tribes fought each other lol, does that mean they weren't Turkic? Ethnicity and linguistics doesn't mean you won't fight each other. The Scythians were still employed as mercenaries by Persians and they were even allied with the Medes to take down the Assyrians. Scythian paganism is strongly connected to Iranic paganism with some differences, they are not the same but similar, obviously since they are nomads they tend to have some cultural differences. It still doesn't make them Turkic like you try to argue for here.

Also neither the Medes or Achaemenids were "Semitic" agriculture empires, are you high or what? xD

Böri

01-14-2018, 09:49 AM

The first recorded Iranic proto-level state was Media/Meds.
They started as vassals of Assyrians, later became independent. And later, they were replaced by Acheamenids.

This is why the Iranian civilzation borrowed from Semites.
It's not self-developed civilization.

It was built on Semitic agriculturalism, the legacy of neolithic farmers.

Scythian religion showed similarity with Tengrism more than with Mithraism or Zoroastrianism.

Although Scythian religious beliefs do not specifically express the values of a nomadic people, such values are manifested distinctly in the forms of Scythian cultic life. For example, according to Herodotus—and this has been confirmed archaeologically—the Scythians had neither temples nor monumental images of their gods, a fact connected, apparently, with the mobility of their way of life.

Greeks and Persians had temples and images/icons of their gods. Fire, sun worship etc.
Elements not existing among Scythians.
That makes them closer to Turkic (and also to Uralics).

Pahli

01-14-2018, 09:53 AM

The first recorded Iranic proto-level state was Media/Meds.
They started as vassals of Assyrians, later became independent. And later, they were replaced by Acheamenids.

This is why the Iranian civilzation borrowed from Semites.
It's not self-developed civilization.

It was built on Semitic agriculturalism, the legacy of neolithic farmers.

Scythian religion showed similarity with Tengrism more than with Mithraism or Zoroastrianism.

Greeks and Persians had temples and images/icons of their gods. Fire, sun worship etc.
Elements not existing among Scythians.
That makes them closer to Turkic (and also to Uralics).

Your opinion doesn't matter for the experts, they are not closer to Turkic or Uralic people but the modern Eastern Iranian peoples of Central Asia.

blogen

01-14-2018, 09:54 AM

Scythians had certainly some Iranic elements.
But were they all Iranic? Were they mainly Iranic?

Yes, clearly Iranic, without any other ethnic elements. The different substrate is missing from their language residues. Iranic names, iranic words.

For example the Finno-Ugric and Turkic language elements are in the sources of the Hungarian language. Because the Magyars were Finno-Ugric speaker, heavily Turkic influenced peoples at this time.

So this defiency of the non-Iranian elements in the sources about the European Scythians language is not a random thing.

If it was such, there wouldn't be Iran-Scythian wars like that famous with Massagatea (Cyrhus).
Scythians and Iranians were enemies.

And?

To the level 2 related nations couldn't be. Scythian religion was different from the Indo-Iranian Zoroastrianism or Mithraism. That's also a strong point for difference.

So, the Chuvash or the Yakut peoples are not Turks!

Iranians (Medes and Acheamenid later) were given civilization by Semitic Assyrians.
The source of the Iranian Aryan civilization of Medes and Acheamenid is Semitic agriculturalism.
Not steppe pastoralism like were Scythians.

Their common ancestors were those steppic peoples, whom lived in the Andronovo cultural complex. Anywas, the Turks in the modern Turkey are not Turks, because they are not nomads anymore as some Kyrgyz until today!

Pahli

01-14-2018, 09:55 AM

Yes, clearly Iranic, without any other ethnic elements.

And?

So, the Chuvash or the Yakut peoples are not Turks!

Their common ancestors were those steppic peoples, whom lived in the Andronovo cultural complex. Anywas, the Turks in the modern Turkey are not Turks, because they are not nomads anymore as some Kyrgyz until today!

He is contradicting himself, so by his logic he isn't Turkish xD

Böri

01-14-2018, 10:10 AM

There is no sample of the 'Scythian' language btw. There are just hypothesis from 1920s and attempts to reconstruct. That's based on Greek records, Hellenized writings. It's names with -os endings etc like Greek names.
That's not enough of proof.

The reconstruction was attempted by Abaev who took for granted that Scythian language was related with Avestan and old Persian.
And Abaev was... Ossetian himself.

There was Stalinist involvement in that theory. It was the years when Soviet Union was denying that old Rus' was Viking :)

So guys
No. It's not for granted Steppic people as you say, were Iranians. There is no proof for that.

Scythians became Iranic during Stalin era in Russia, the same time Rus' were officially declared non-Varangian LOL

Pahli

01-14-2018, 10:14 AM

There is no sample of the 'Scythian' language btw. There are just hypothesis from 1920s and attempts to reconstruct. That's based on Greek records, Hellenized writings. It's names with -os endings etc like Greek names.
That's not enough of proof.

The reconstruction was attempted by Abaev who took for granted that Scythian language was related with Avestan and old Persian.
And Abaev was... Ossetian himself.

There was Stalinist involvement in that theory. It was the years when Soviet Union was denying that old Rus' was Viking :)

So guys
No. It's not for granted Steppic people as you say, were Iranians. There is no proof for that.

Scythians became Iranic during Stalin era in Russia, like Rus' were officially declared non-Varangian LOL

The proof for them being Iranian is much bigger than your flawed Turkic theory, why do you keep trying? xD

It probably hurts your Turanistic ideology of everything being Turkic :(

Böri

01-14-2018, 10:18 AM

Ossetian chauvinistic Abaev prepared the 'Iranian Scythian' hypothesis during Stalin era, when same people declared Varangian Rus' weren't Varangian. Not to mention Joseph Stalin was half Ossetian too, from his mom side.

Enough said.

I respect construction attempts but everybody must confess the reality that there is no sample of the Scythian language at all.

Pahli

01-14-2018, 10:21 AM

Ossetian chauvinistic Abaev prepared the 'Iranian Scythian' hypothesis during Stalin era, when same people declared Varangian Rus' weren't Varangian.
Enough said.

I respect construction attempts but everybody must confess the reality that there is no sample of the Scythian language at all.

There is but not a lot. although it points towards an East Iranian dialect of Iranian languages. I've seen how Turks tried to hijack that 1000 times and failed, even got destroyed by one of their own countrymen, not all Turks are blinded by dumb ideologies.

Böri

01-14-2018, 10:26 AM

There is no sample of the Scythian language.
Toharians were IE (not Iranic) yeah. We know it. They were agriculturalist from Tarim Bassin who left written samples of their language behind them.

For Scythians, we don't know.

Sorry. We can't accept the Abaev-Stalin, Ossetian centric, Iranian Scythians hypothesis for granted.
If we believe in that, we must also accept that Rus' weren't Vikings, because same people pretended that too back then.

Pahli

01-14-2018, 10:29 AM

There is no sample of the Scythian language.
Toharians were IE (not Iranic) yeah. We know it. They were agriculturalist from Tarim Bassin who left written samples of their language behind them.

For Scythians, we don't know.

Sorry. We can't accept the Abaev-Stalin, Ossetian centric, Iranian Scythians theory.
If we believe in that, we must also accept that Rus' weren't Vikings, because same people pretended that too back then.

You can't deny a theory just because of Vasily Abaev, then thousands of other linguists are wrong too.

Leto

01-14-2018, 02:07 PM

Pamiroid Hungarian girl:
https://i.img.ie/3Zm.jpg

Definitely not white, hovewer, looks swarthy caucasoid for the superficial observer (the white peoples are blonde haired, light eyed and skinned peoples, the dark hair is not white)!
Blogen, Hungarians are a white Central European nation. Less mongoloid than me.

blogen

01-14-2018, 02:26 PM

Blogen, Hungarians are a white Central European nation. Less mongoloid than me.

Hair color of the Hungarians (on Fischer–Saller), Mens/Womans:
brown-black (P-Y): 97,7%/96,9%
transitional: (M-O): 1,2%/1,8%
blond: (A-L): 0,8%/1%
red: (I-IV): 0,3%/0,3%

~4% Whites (only the natural light hair + light eye + and light skin!)
~28% swarthy Caucasoids
~67% swarthy not clear Caucasoids (few Mongoloid contribution, mosty only morphologically)
~1% swarthy not clear Mongoloids (few Caucasoid contribution, but visible not clear Mongoloid)

source (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?134315-ROMANIAN-UNIVERSITY-STUDENTS-Why-are-average-romanians-so-swarthy&p=2839243&viewfull=1#post2839243)

Again: white = light hair, eyes and skin.

Brown hair = swarthy, dark eyes = swarthy, dark skin = swarthy.

Leto

01-14-2018, 02:38 PM

Hair color of the Hungarians (on Fischer–Saller), Mens/Womans:
brown-black (P-Y): 97,7%/96,9%
transitional: (M-O): 1,2%/1,8%
blond: (A-L): 0,8%/1%
red: (I-IV): 0,3%/0,3%

~4% Whites (only the natural light hair + light eye + and light skin!)
~28% swarthy Caucasoids
~67% swarthy not clear Caucasoids (few Mongoloid contribution, mosty only morphologically)
~1% swarthy not clear Mongoloids (few Caucasoid contribution, but visible not clear Mongoloid)

source (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?134315-ROMANIAN-UNIVERSITY-STUDENTS-Why-are-average-romanians-so-swarthy&p=2839243&viewfull=1#post2839243)

Again: white = light hair, eyes and skin.

Brown hair = swarthy, dark eyes = swarthy, dark skin = swarthy.
Southern Europeans are not white? Other Europeans with dark hair and brown eyes are not white? White has never meant blonde. The Spanish and Portuguese are rarely blonde, but they called themselves white back in the Colombus era. White = European.

blogen

01-14-2018, 03:38 PM

Southern Europeans are not white? Other Europeans with dark hair and brown eyes are not white? White has never meant blonde. The Spanish and Portuguese are rarely blonde, but they called themselves white back in the Colombus era. White = European.

Of course not! They are Caucasoids only, but not whites!

https://i.img.ie/3ZN.md.jpg (https://img.ie/image/3ZN)
(click!)

Rethel

01-14-2018, 03:59 PM

Another turkish OR1D thread... :bored:

Proto-Shaman

01-14-2018, 04:01 PM

Ossetian chauvinistic Abaev prepared the 'Iranian Scythian' hypothesis during Stalin era, when same people declared Varangian Rus' weren't Varangian. Not to mention Joseph Stalin was half Ossetian too, from his mom side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkology#Persecution_in_Soviet_Russia

https://i.imgur.com/VTY9g3P.png
https://i.imgur.com/hDsnVeZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/odRjrr6.png
https://i.imgur.com/zc99Rht.png
https://i.imgur.com/xTzzhD2.png
https://i.imgur.com/PdouDSk.png
https://i.imgur.com/fmXRJUW.png
https://i.imgur.com/xwa4c14.png

Just sheer coincidence! ... has absolutely nothing to do with the Scytho-Osseto-Iranian theory (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/Scytho-IranianTheoryWikipedia08032006.htm) :rolleyes:

Ooops! Conspiracy alarm! :eek:

The USSR Academy of Sciences' publication by V.I. Abaev, which declared Ossetian language to be a Northern branch of the Persian language, came at the crest of the Stalinist campaign against “ancientization” of the Türkic history, decreed in the 1944, at the time when the USSR Academy of Sciences was a subservient department of an autocratic state apparatus.

... wait a second.. am I blinded by dumb ideologies now? :eek:

Proto-Shaman

01-14-2018, 04:05 PM

You can't deny a theory just because of Vasily Abaev, then thousands of other linguists are wrong too.

One lie always gives birth to another lie. ;)

Proto-Shaman

01-14-2018, 04:08 PM

turkish OR1D thread... :bored:
another expression for Turan Observation for IE lies thread given by IE supremacists :bored:

Rethel

01-14-2018, 04:39 PM

another expression for Turan Observation for IE lies thread given by IE supremacists :bored:

What lies?
did we ever claim, that IEs did never ever marry mongoloidic women? :picard2:

We have 100mln +/- 20mln people in east and south east Asia.
Are they all Turks, becasue they are mongoloidic? :picard2:

Böri

01-14-2018, 05:51 PM

What lies?
did we ever claim, that IEs did never ever marry mongoloidic women? :picard2:

We have 100mln +/- 20mln people in east and south east Asia.
Are they all Turks, becasue they are mongoloidic? :picard2:

Keep defending Stalinistic Ossetian propaganda you subhuman.
Scythians were declared Iranic solely to feed Stalin's ego, who was (at least partly) Ossetian.
There is no scientifically any proof or evidence for Scythian Iranicness.

Turkic word Temur or Tumir is taken by Greeks, who have bad habit to add their suffixes -is or -os and then it became Queen Tomyris.
That's how it happened.

Kelmendasi

01-14-2018, 06:18 PM

Keep defending Stalinistic Ossetian propaganda you subhuman.
Scythians were declared Iranic solely to feed Stalin's ego, who was (at least partly) Ossetian.
There is no scientifically any proof or evidence for Scythian Iranicness.

Turkic word Temur or Tumir is taken by Greeks, who have bad habit to add their suffixes -is or -os and then it became Queen Tomyris.
That's how it happened.
There is evidence for it, you just don’t want to accept it

MercifulServant

01-14-2018, 06:34 PM

Keep defending Stalinistic Ossetian propaganda you subhuman.
Scythians were declared Iranic solely to feed Stalin's ego, who was (at least partly) Ossetian.
There is no scientifically any proof or evidence for Scythian Iranicness.

Turkic word Temur or Tumir is taken by Greeks, who have bad habit to add their suffixes -is or -os and then it became Queen Tomyris.
That's how it happened.

The only subhuman is you, you and youre nation are pathetic wannabe mongoloids with almost no mong dna youre all just a bunch of turkified caucasians

Proto-Shaman

01-14-2018, 07:25 PM

Proto-Shaman

01-14-2018, 07:27 PM

There is evidence for it, you just don’t want to accept it
Only in your wet dreams maybe.

Böri

01-14-2018, 07:33 PM

Kelmendasi

01-14-2018, 07:35 PM

Only in your wet dreams maybe.
Lol, I don’t care about Scythians being IE or anything being IE in general, what matters to me is facts and the fact is that the actual Scythians were IE although some eastern ones would’ve had some Turkic influences. And there are Saka inscriptions which confirm it as being Iranic

Böri

01-14-2018, 07:37 PM

Lol, I don’t care about Scythians being IE or anything being IE in general, what matters to me is facts and the fact is that the actual Scythians were IE although some eastern ones would’ve had some Turkic influences. And there are Saka inscriptions which confirm it as being Iranic

Those inscriptions were written by agriculturalist, farming, non-nomad East Iranians of Khoten... with Semitic-origin alphabet...
Already talked about that.

Proto-Shaman

01-14-2018, 07:38 PM

Kelmendasi

01-14-2018, 07:40 PM

Those inscriptions were written by agriculturalist, farming, non-nomad East Iranians of Khoten... with Semitic-origin alphabet...
Already talked about that.
They were still Saka and that’s undisputable, also I already established how scripts can’t be linked to language families so calling it “Semitic” is really innacurate and the Turkic alphabet also developed from these so called “Semitic” scripts

Kelmendasi

01-14-2018, 07:41 PM

Good point: facts. You don't know them.
Oh yeah I forgot, everything under the sun is Turkic

Böri

01-14-2018, 07:42 PM

They were still Saka and that’s undisputable, also I already established how scripts can’t be linked to language families so calling it “Semitic” is really innacurate and the Turkic alphabet also developed from these so called “Semitic” scripts

Khotan Empire was East Iranian. Stretching from Transoxiana up until modern Tarim basin which now lies in west China.
They were Buddhist agriculturalists.
They had villages, they were settled, they were farming. They weren't nomads.

They are proto-Tajiks and proto-Sogdians.
That has nothing to do with the nomads of the steppes.

Their script was Aramaic which was a Semitic alphabet. Turkic runes was self-developed (Thomsen said Turks might some cheating on Chinese but runic and letter style making unique).

Kelmendasi

01-14-2018, 07:44 PM

Khotan Empire was East Iranian. Stretching from Transoxiana up until modern Tarim basin which now lies in west China.
They were Buddhist agriculturalists.

They are proto-Tajiks and proto-Sogdians.
That has nothing to do with the nomads of the steppes.
The inscriptions were proven to be from the Saka though, so the history of Khotan is irrelevant to what I am saying. So for something to be Scythian or Turkic they have to be nomads?

Böri

01-14-2018, 07:59 PM

So for something to be Scythian or Turkic they have to be nomads?
Originally, yes.
Herodotus referred to nomads living all way from Crimea to Siberia with the word Scythian.
Farmers, villager agriculturalists weren't Scythian.

Kelmendasi

01-14-2018, 08:10 PM

Originally, yes.
Herodotus referred to nomads living all way from Crimea to Siberia with the word Scythian.
Farmers, villager agriculturalists weren't Scythian.
Going by this Turks aren’t Turkic. Anyways, the Scythians in West Eurasia were Iranic although the “Scythian” towards the east probably were assimilated Turkics or just bilingual Turkic peoples

Böri

01-14-2018, 08:21 PM

Going by this Turks aren’t Turkic. Anyways, the Scythians in West Eurasia were Iranic although the “Scythian” towards the east probably were assimilated Turkics or just bilingual Turkic peoples

Khotanese Saka people (the inscription you talk about) were farmer agriculturalists who were genetically like 15-20% South Asian.

West Scythians (pastoralist nomads) were overwhelmingly Europid with minor Siberid.
The language they talked was not for sure.
In fact we dont know even if it was only one language.

Proto-Shaman

01-15-2018, 03:23 AM

Oh yeah I forgot, everything under the sun is Turkic
nope. only Euro-Mongoloid skulls.

Proto-Shaman

01-15-2018, 03:25 AM

Weren't the Andronovo almost entirely Caucasoid?
90% Caucasoid and 10% Mongoloid on average.

Proto-Shaman

01-15-2018, 03:28 AM

Basically they were very mongoloid long before the Mongol invasion. But the percentage of Aryan DNA is still very significant. Over 1/4 Northern European.
Actually you should say "Aryan DNA is already very significant", since the evidence of the deer-stones undoubtedly strengthens the position of those who argue for the eastern, Central Asian origin of the animal style and of the entire Scythian culture. Btw oldest Scythian graves were found in Tuva, and they were 35-55% Mongoloid. Their aDNA is entirely Turkic. This fits actually to Herodots claim that Scythians originated beyond the Jaxartes.

Grab the Gauge

01-15-2018, 03:46 AM

Proto-Shaman

01-15-2018, 04:21 AM

ButlerKing

01-15-2018, 12:21 PM

Karakalpak GEDmatch kit numbers. They are only 50-55% mongoloid.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?222682-Karakalpaks-on-GEDmatch&highlight=karakalpak

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 27.53
2 Siberian 25.2
3 North_European 16.83
4 Caucasus 11.08
5 Gedrosia 8.33
6 Atlantic_Med 5.32
7 Southeast_Asian 3.25
8 South_Asian 2.09
9 Southwest_Asian 0.35

~55% Mongoloid.

27.53 + 25.2 + 3.25 = 55.98% ( actually 56% )

And what do you mean only 50-55% Mongoloid only ? That's like trying to tell me a half Black person wouldn't identify himself as Black when like 99.99999% of them always do let alone the ones who are above 50%.

This is only one GEDmatch kit numbers. I'm sure they will vary.

ButlerKing

01-15-2018, 12:30 PM

:)

Who made this?
And that's based on what data?
Since when Armenians are 100% European?
They are closest to Assyrians, even more than they are to the West Asiatic Georgians.

Armenians are less than 10% European/North Euro genetically.
Turks are more than them for example.

I knew I was smarter than most members in this forum.

European A.K.A West Eurasian , it includes all admixtures that are Caucasoid by race such as West Asian, Mediterranean, Southwest Asian, North European, Caucasus, Gedrosia.

East Asian A.K.A East Eurasian, it includes all admixtures that are Mongoloid by race such as East Asian, Southeast Asian, Siberian

Seriously it's such a easy logic even I figured it out in a short time.

ButlerKing

01-15-2018, 12:41 PM

Bro, you didn't wise up? Or you still insist? Didn't you see my post to you on this thread?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?232524-Classify-Kazakh-band&p=4901702&viewfull=1#post4901702

I'm leaving this here, If you still didn't wise up
http://i45.tinypic.com/112c4go.png

Also this
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2myu6u0.jpg

I agree there is some problem with both charts.

For exampled the Tajiks East Asian admixture is very low in one end and very high in the other end. Low east Asian admixture could be from Pamiri Tajiks, this study properly includes them

The Uyghurs show 35-40% East Asian and 60-65% European which is wrong. This admixture is only based on Uyghurs from Southern Xinjiang and that's misleading. Northern Uyghurs have only 30-47% European admixture which they didn't include ( btw European in this study means west Eurasians from west asian, european, southwest asian, caucasus ect )

Uyghur genetics

KK (2009). "Genetic Landscape of Eurasia and "Admixture" in Uyghurs". American Journal of Human Genetics. 8

" various scientific studies differ on the size of each component.[129] One study, using samples from Hetian (Hotan) only, found that Uyghurs have 60% European ancestry and 40% East Asian ancestry.[130] A further study showed slightly greater European component (52% European) in the Uyghur population in southern Xinjiang, but slightly greater East Asian component (47% European) in the northern Uyghur population.[131] Another study used a larger sample of individuals from a wider area, and found only about 30% European component to the admixture.[132] "

TURKMEN DNA GENETIC VARIATION IS A LOT MORE LARGER THAN THAT GRAPH HAD SHOWN. Mongoloid DNA can be over 50% in some Turkmen aswell. You can see some Turkmen tribe look very Mongoloid like the Tekke Turkmen and other Turkmen tribes while the Turkmen living in a historically Iranian city in Turkmenistan have a much lower Mongoloid although some look like they have high aswell.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2nsqvbt.png

ButlerKing

01-15-2018, 01:12 PM

For the last time, Pazyryk aren't Scythians. They were a far out people who had been culturally Scythicized. The original Scythians are the True Scyths, aka Royal Scyths. Many different groups were recognized as having adopted Scythian culture, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanchlaeni

Scythians were absolutely not Turkic, linguistically, genetically, culturally, racially. None of these things even existed when Scythians first appeared. We also have no idea whether or not this DNA is Mongoloid, just because it is concentrated in Mongoloids today doesn't make it Mongoloid.

SCYTHIAN DNA

" Ancient genome-wide analysis on samples from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva, shows that Iron Age Scythians were a mix of Yamnaya people from the Russian Steppe and East Asian populations, similar to the Han and the Nganasan (Samoyedic people from northern Siberia). The East Asian admixture is pervasive across diverse present-day people from Siberia and Central Asia. "

Han aka Han Chinese
Nganasan a Siberian people

Obviously Mongoloid unless you're telling me the Chinese and Ngannasans don't have Mongoloid DNA.

You even said Central Asians Mongoloid admixture is not not because of the Mongol invasion. You're only partially correct, Central Asians already had Mongoloid during the Scythian times to the Turkic invasion however. Central Asia before Mongol invasion in 13th century were still primary physically Caucasoid and predominately Caucasoid. There were Mongoloid-Europoid people they were a minority until the Mongol-Turkic invasion. Central Asia used to be inhabited by Iranian Caucasoid like Scythians, Sogdians, Pamirs, Bactrians, Andronovo people until the massive genocide and rape of Iranian women by Mongolians army. Now everyone of these groups are extinct except for the Pamiris and Tajik people while the rest of Central Asians can look like straight up East Asian to half Chinese, Japanese, Korean.

Original people of Kazakhstan, Indo-European speaker. These were all racially people of Caucasoid and predominant Caucasoid.

http://i43.tinypic.com/sltx8l.jpg

Now Kazakhs today are predominant Mongoloid

http://www.eaglefalconer.com/images/PG_MO_G_Soltakhan-father-son.jpg
http://kazakhnomad.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/academic-listening-class.jpg

Original Kyrgyz from Siberia, union of only Turkic, Uralic, Indo-European.
ancient inhabitants of people from Kyrgyzstan were Caucasoid and half caucasoid

http://www.centralasia-biz.com/cabiz/kirgizstan/turizm/hystory/ancientman_5.jpg
http://www.centralasia-biz.com/cabiz/kirgizstan/turizm/hystory/ancientman_1.jpg

Now Kyrgyz today all predominant Mongoloid

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/12/8/1228738719993/Gallery-Eid-al-Adha-Kyrgy-005.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/23/world/24kyrgyz2_600.jpg

Original Kypchaks were Caucasoid with substantial Mongoloid

http://s2.forumimage.ru/uploads/20091029/125682172870747162.jpg

However the Kypchaks known as Nogais are mixture of Kypchak and Mongol

They live in Russia North Caucasus and always claim to be descendants of Golden Horde. They are all predominant Mongoloid.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/dw3rit.jpg

The original people of Northern and Central Afghanistan were like Kushans a Indo-European people.

http://www.grifterrec.com/coins/kushan/i_kushan3.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li0vcb8Lz61qdvvdxo1_500.jpg

The Hazara are descendants of Mongol armies and Tajik or Balochi women
They claim to be descendants of Mongol and Genghis Khan although some Hazara prefer to call themsels the original inhabitants known as Kushans

http://sadani.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/hazara2.jpg
http://www.fekrat.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/hazara-children-in-behsud.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvn4egi1by1qlsr3bo1_1280.jpg

Original people of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan

http://i45.tinypic.com/331j794.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/el9ybs.jpg

Many of the Uzbeks and Turkmen retained features of original Central Asians

Uzbeks were effected by both Turkic and Mongol

http://www3.utsidan.se/corax-e/Jeff's%20Photos/uzbekschoolchildren.jpg

But Turkmen were already effected by original gokturks who were mixed Mongoloid. DNA does not shows Turkmen they were effected by Mongolians at all but by Siberian DNA. Even Turk have some Siberian DNA today.

http://i48.tinypic.com/kbpuf5.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2cz4nwz.jpg[/QUOTE]

Nanushka

01-16-2018, 06:24 AM

There is no scientific evidence about Scythians and Sarmatians being IE, all the above posts are personal interpretations of rumours depending on the outworn works of soviet and british from 1940s

So, from the early writers: Anna Comnena says Turks are Scythians in her Alexiad (1148) likewise Michael Attaleiates in The History (1079) clearly express that Schythians are Pechenegs, he was present in Manzikert

71661

Also, as I have written proeviously, Greek writer Priscus wrote Atilla's Huns spoke scythian and they are from the same origin with Scyhtians (448). I read the book myself

No need to write about the research of the many Turkic academics today like İlhami Durmus, O.Karatay, Laipanov etc:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/27_Scythians/LaipanovMizievOriginOfTurkicPeoplesEn.htm

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/30_Writing/IssykInscription/AliliE2012IssykInscriptionEn.htm

There are abundance of such findings I can give more if you wish but I cant see any proof on Iranian-theory other than 'mighty' wiki

Grab the Gauge

01-16-2018, 11:54 AM

SCYTHIAN DNA
[/QUOTE]

HA HA HAAAAA typical ButlerKing post, lots of pictures of shitty second world reconstructions, no factual data.

Fact: Yamnaya weren't Mongoloid or East Asian genetically.

Fact: Central Asian males are majority R1 just as they have been since the Bronze Age, no Mongoloid replacement by Turks or Mongols:

Kyrgyz 61% R1a:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_Nort h_Asia

Scythians R1a:

Ancient Y-DNA data was finally provided by Keyser et al in 2009. They studied the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia dated from between the middle of the 2nd millennium BC and the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R-M17. The authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue- (or green-) eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people who might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilisation. Moreover, this study found that they were genetically more closely related to modern populations of eastern Europe than those of central and southern Asia.[134] The ubiquity and utter dominance of R1a Y-DNA lineage contrasts markedly with the diversity seen in the mtDNA profiles.

-----

Tocharians R1a mixing with Mongoloids over 2,000 years ago:

Genetic analyses of the mummies showed that the Xiaohe people were an admixture from populations originating from both the West and the East. The maternal lineages of the Xiaohe people originated from both East Asia and West Eurasia, whereas the paternal lineages all originated from West Eurasia.[11]

Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that maternal lineages carried by the people at Xiaohe included mtDNA haplogroups H, K, U5, U7, U2e, T and R*, which are now most common in West Eurasia. Also found were haplogroups common in modern populations from East Asia: B5, D and G2a. Haplogroups now common in Central Asian or Siberian populations included: C4 and C5. Haplogroups later regarded as typically South Asian includedM5 and M*.[12]

The paternal lines of male remains surveyed nearly all – 11 out of 12, or around 92% – belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup R1a1, which are now most common in West Eurasia; the other belonged to the exceptionally rare paragroup K* (M9).[13]

Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women. By the time of the Mongol invasions of central Asia, most people were already partially Mongoloid. Even Genghis Khan himself was a byproduct of this mixture. He was not fully East Eurasian.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0161622

Temujin (AD 1167-1227), better known by his title Genghis Khan (Universal Ruler), was a man of strongly Nordish racial ancestry. According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men). [Günther (1934) 185; Lamb (1928) 22.] The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan. [Günther (1934) 184.] Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard. [Günther (1934) 185.] We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan: "He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back." [Lamb (1928) 23.] Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesugai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.] Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed". [Lamb (1928) 23.] As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.

Pahli

01-16-2018, 12:12 PM

All the returds are spawning again, how delightful

Proto-Shaman

01-16-2018, 03:16 PM

SCYTHIAN DNA
Han aka Han Chinese
Nganasan a Siberian people

Obviously Mongoloid

massive genocide and rape

Indo-European speaker.

like Kushans a Indo-European people.[/B] :picard2:

Even Turk have some Siberian DNA today.

Fact: Yamnaya weren't Mongoloid or East Asian genetically.

Tocharians R1a mixing with Mongoloids over 2,000 years ago:

Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

ButlerKing

01-16-2018, 03:53 PM

HA HA HAAAAA typical ButlerKing post, lots of pictures of shitty second world reconstructions, no factual data.

Fact: Yamnaya weren't Mongoloid or East Asian genetically.

Fact: Central Asian males are majority R1 just as they have been since the Bronze Age, no Mongoloid replacement by Turks or Mongols:

Kyrgyz 61% R1a:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Central_and_Nort h_Asia

Scythians R1a:

-----

Tocharians R1a mixing with Mongoloids over 2,000 years ago:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0161622

Don't confuse yourself so badly. You are correct and wrong. Early Mongoloid admixture in Central Asian started out mostly with Mongoloid females and Europoid BUT AFTER THAT it was Mongoloid males and Mongoloid-Europoid males Europoid females. Kyrgyz and other central Asians are partially Mongoloid because of Scythian and Tocharian men mating with Mongoloid women and later Mongol-Turkic men mating with Europoid female. Have you forgotten Central Asians also have 40-90% European mtDNA ??? Kazakhs have 40-50% European women mtDNA with predominately East Asian male ancestry 70-90% (in many studies), Kyrgyz have mostly European Y-DNA 60-70% but how do you explain the fact they have 27-42.6% European women mtDNA ? Where do you find a pure Europoid Kyrgyz ???? THERE IS NONE AND THE ANSWER IS HERE.

Fact no.1
There is more Mongolian Y-DNA than mtDNA in Central Asia but more Siberian mtDNA than Y-DNA. And if you include the R1a Mongoloid males ( who have Europoid paternal ancestry but look as Mongoloid as any Chinese ) than it's actually more higher than we all think.

Fact no.2
R1a is in Central Asia is partially descended from partially/or heck properly even predominately Mongoloid males R1a.

Did you really think that the Mongoloid invaders of Central Asia were only strictly haplogroup C, O, Q, N, D ???? because Genghis Khan invasion of Central Asia included both Mongol and Turkic tribes. And if we are talking Turkic tribes it's likely they were already predominant Mongoloid males with R1a

The proof is right here

Pazyryk culture

" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "

Anayino culture

Sculptural reconstruction of men Lugovskyi burial
Ananyino culture. Gypsum. MMGerasimov work.

" Reconstruction of the mounds number 5, 6 show burial Stone Barn in racial make women Ural mixed type men - striking features of Central Asian Mongoloid."

http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641901/tyurk1.jpg

http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641909/f-u1.jpg

Kyrgyz may have 40-70% R1a ( depending on the Kyrgyz tribes, some Kyrgyz actually have very low R1a despite several studies show them with high )

West Eurasian mtDNA lineages ranging from 27% on the low end to 42.6% on the high end [37] with Haplogroup mtDNA H being the most predominant marker at 21.3% among the Kyrgyz.[37]

Do you understand what this means ?

It means Europoid mated with Mongoloid females and later Mongoloid males and predominant Mongoloid males mated with Europoid females in different periods of time and history.

http://i65.tinypic.com/8yvrx5.gif
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/WorldHaplogroupsMaps/KyrgyzMT_DNA.gif

Here is Kyrgyz west Eurasian mtDNA

Kyrgyz populations have frequencies of West Eurasian mtDNA lineages ranging from 27% on the low end to 42.6% on the high end.

Do you understand what this means ? It means in 1 in 4 (27%) or almost 1 in 2 ( 42.6% ) of the 5.5 million Kyrgyz population are also descended from Caucasian Europoid females. Or better said roughly a quarter to half of them are descended from Caucasoid females.

Look at these Kyrgyz, not one of them look even the slight Europoid.
http://static.ca-news.org/upload/ennews/8/568928.1448341546.m.jpg

The fact that every modern genetic study shows Kyrgyz being super heavily Mongoloid MEANS all ancient Europoid females from Kyrgyzstan also had to mixed with Mongoloid males with C, O, Q, N and Predominately Mongoloid males with R1a

You won't find one single modern Kyrgyz who's a pure Europoid genetically with a pure R1a and Caucasian mtDNA H

Temujin (AD 1167-1227), better known by his title Genghis Khan (Universal Ruler), was a man of strongly Nordish racial ancestry. According to the Persian historian Ab ul Ghasi, the tribal clan to which Temujin belonged, were known as the Bourchikoun (Grey-Eyed Men). [Günther (1934) 185; Lamb (1928) 22.] The ancestral mother and founder of this clan was known as Alan goa (beautiful Alan). According to the Mongol and Chinese legends on the subject, she was said to have been visited in her tent by a divine being, who possessed golden hair, a fair complexion and grey eyes. Shortly after this visitation, she gave birth to the first member of the Bourchikoun clan. [Günther (1934) 184.] Temujin himself was noted in Chinese descriptions of him, for his tall stature and heavy beard. [Günther (1934) 185.] We should also note the following depiction of Temujin's appearance, as given by Harold Lamb, in his biography of the great Khan: "He must have been tall, with high shoulders, his skin a whitish tan. His eyes, set far apart under a sloping forehead, did not slant. And his eyes were green, or blue-grey in the iris, with black pupils. Long reddish-brown hair fell in braids to his back." [Lamb (1928) 23.] Ab ul Ghasi also observed that the family of Yesugai, the father of Temujin, were known for the fact that their children often had fair complexions, and blue or grey eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.] Temujin's wife, Bourtai, bore a name which means "Grey-Eyed". [Lamb (1928) 23.] As both Günther (1934) and Lamb (1928) note, Temujin's relatives and descendants also possessed fair features: Temujin's son and successor Ogadei (1229-41), had gray eyes and red hair; Temujin's grandson Mangu (1251-9), had reddish eyebrows and a red-brown beard; Subatei, who conquered China, had a long, reddish beard. Indeed, it was said that people were surprised Kubilai Khan had dark hair and eyes, because most of Genghis Khan's descendants had reddish hair and blue eyes. [Günther (1934) 185.

Nice source from Euro-centrist website, only thing Chinese never described these colored hair/eyes Mongols as western barbarian like they did with Uyghurs and Tocharian but instead they compared than them with a Mongoloid Tibetan male who had only one blue eye or with Heterochromia disease.

Here is your blue eye, red hair Odegei Khan looks 100% Mongoloid facially and genetically properly 95% Mongoloid.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/YuanEmperorAlbumOgedeiPortrait.jpg

Physical appearance of Genghis Khan by his grandson Kublai Khan

" The closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan, which was drawn under the supervision of his grandson Khubilai during the Mongol Yuan dynasty and depicts Genghis Khan with typical Mongol features.[73] "

This is the closest depictions of Genghis Khan, the original was in black and white ink, not the 14th century coloured album

http://i61.tinypic.com/abcw1.jpg

Here is what Genghis Khan would have 100% looked like. Green/blue eye Mongol with hair, although extremely rare it occurs occasionally.

http://i61.tinypic.com/9910lc.jpg
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Duo9t6jJkAE/mqdefault.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2nbvsc3.jpg

And for your info there are 100% pure East Eurasian with those red hair/blonde hair blue eyes such as the Hmong

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s283/shortypai/paisdigital043.jpg

Half Asians with blue eyes and red hair

http://i60.tinypic.com/27wxbwk.jpg

Typical Euro-centrist. Who give a crap if he is not pure East Eurasian when he is still around 98% East Eurasian or 90-95%. Do you see Muhammad Ali giving a crap that he is 1/4 White ? First try to show me a half Black even identify himself as some half white boy before you try that on a figure not even 5-10% white.

Hadouken

01-16-2018, 04:00 PM

wir waren skythen und so'n scheiß

ButlerKing

01-16-2018, 04:16 PM

Why do people keep thinking Kyrgyz = Europoid males and Mongoloid females. From a genetic point you can only say most of them are Europoid male descendants and Mongoloid female but there is still large number of them descendant from Mongoloid males, Europoid females. We are talking about 27 - 42.6% West Eurasian mtDNA not 1-4% ( And never mind South Asian mtDNA which is 3-9% although most of them properly existed in pre-central Asians and looked a typical ancient Central Asian). Now thanks to anthropology of ancient people we shouldn't think about only haplogroup C, O, Q, N people invaded there was also Mongoloid faces males but with R1a inherited through their Scythian fathers.

Kyrgyz population 5.5 million/or 5,500,000

27% Caucasian mtDNA out of 5,500,000 = 1,485,000 Kyrgyz have Caucasian maternal ancestry

42.6% of Caucasian mtDNA out of 5,500,000 = 2,257,800 Kyrgyz have Caucasian maternal ancestry

Assuming those Caucasoid mtDNA wasn't raped or mated with than where the heck is one genetic data with Kyrgyz showing pure Europoid DNA or where is the crowed picture of them that don't look super Mongoloid ( I'm talking about crowed picture not cherrypicked indidividuals )

It means not just Mongoloid mtDNA got f*cked the same goes for Caucasoid mtDNA historically.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2010/06/12/world/KYRGYZ2/KYRGYZ2-popup.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Kyrgyz_people.png
http://www.reckontalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Kyrgyzstan-4.jpg

As for Uyghurs

They are descended from Tocharian, now assuming in ancient times half of them were pure Europoid and half were Mongoloid-Europoid (don't know what degree though ) One can assume have the Uyghur invasion of Tarim Basin, that almost all the intermixture were Mongoloid males and Europoid females and Mongoloid-Europoid females with both Caucasian mtDNA and Mongoloid mtDNA because ancient Tocharian were already this admixture but they heavily Europoid unlike today ancient Tocharians properly like ancient Scythians with 80-85% Europoid, 15-20% Mongoloid not like modern Uyghurs ( descendant of Tocharian ) who are 50% Mongoloid and only 50% Europoid.

" A study on mitochondrial DNA (therefore the matrilineal genetic contribution) found the frequency of western Eurasian-specific haplogroup in Uyghurs to be 42.6%, and East Asian haplogroup to be 57.4%[133] A further study shows that the western-Eurasian patrilineal Y-DNA haplogroup in Uyghurs is around 65% to 70%, and east-Asian Y-DNA haplogroup around 30% to 35%.[134] ( from 0% to 30-35% but mtDNA west Eurasian were properly the same )

According to the paper by Li et al.:

... the western East Asians are more closely related to Uyghurs than the eastern East Asians. ... STRUCTURE cannot distinguish recent admixture from a cline of other origin, and these analyses cannot prove admixture in the Uyghurs; however, historical records indicate that the present Uyghurs were formed by admixture between Tocharians from the west and Orkhon Uyghurs (Wugusi-Huihu, according to present Chinese pronunciation) from the east in the 8th century AD. The Uyghur Empire was originally located in Mongolia and conquered the Tocharian tribes in Xinjiang. Tocharians such as Kroran have been shown by archaeological findings to appear phenotypically similar to northern and central Europeans, whereas the Orkhon Uyghur people were clearly Mongolians. The two groups of people subsequently mixed in Xinjiang to become one population, the present Uyghurs. We do not know the genetic constitution of the Tocharians, but if they were similar to western Siberians, such as the Khanty, admixture would already be biased toward similarity with East Asian populations.

Hadouken

01-16-2018, 04:17 PM

wir alle sind skythen und so'n scheiß

Userius

01-16-2018, 04:45 PM

Böri

01-16-2018, 04:47 PM

There also wasn't any grand "Scythian" empire like some people believe, just loose coalitions of tribes that moved in fluid borders with few areas ever having an actual, stable population.

Yup there was not a Scythian state. There was also not a Scythian ethnicity.
And that's also true they weren't (at least not all) Iranians as the Stalinist falsified, fabricated, Pro-Ossetic hypothesis claimed.

Userius

01-16-2018, 05:05 PM

Yup there was not a Scythian state. There was also not a Scythian ethnicity.
And that's also true they weren't (at least not all) Iranians as the Stalinist falsified, fabricated, Pro-Ossetic hypothesis claimed.

The Ossetic thing is one of the biggest failures. Genetically, they're basically just Georgians/Kartveli or whatever you want to call them. The language also isn't as pure Iranic as it looks on first inspection.

In reality, regardless of ethnic composition, one could easily say that the Turkic kingdoms were far beyond anything "Scythians" accomplished other than the Kushan and Indo-Saka empires. Yet for some reason, people want to talk about some big loss that central Asia went through and act like their should be some kind of uprising.

ButlerKing

01-16-2018, 05:15 PM

Tocharians were probably among the more clearly Caucasoid groups. They had DNA more resembling mainland Europeans and spoke a language similar to the Celtic branch. "Scythians" as a whole were not a singular people and as such each had varying degrees of being Caucasoid or Mongoloid. That is the nature of the steppes. Ethnicity was ALWAYS very fluid among the nomadic steppe tribes, and race didn't hold the same meaning.

There also wasn't any grand "Scythian" empire like some people believe, just loose coalitions of tribes that moved in fluid borders with few areas ever having an actual, stable population.

Although it's proven they had Mongoloid admixture they were roughly on average 80% Europoid and 20% Mongoloid. They wold have still look Europoid with little to no Mongoloid features. We can see North Africans are 22-24% Sub-Saharan African but when you look at them the vast majority look like a straight hair Caucasoid males, some look Caucasoid with curly hair but very few look like a Ethiopian /Somalian type ( don't confuse the Black North African who are descendants of African slave trade or the Black/African north African 7-9th generation descendants, they make up a substantial of North Africa's population today but but are not proper north Africans) so the same would apply to Scythians and Tocharians.

Proto-Shaman

01-17-2018, 12:07 AM

Tocharians were probably among the more clearly Caucasoid groups.
What you call "Tocharian" has nothing to do with the IE language found in the Tarim basin. Tochar is a well-known misnomer and is included within Turkic tribal groups by Mahmud al-Kashgari.

Proto-Shaman

01-17-2018, 12:10 AM

Although it's proven they had Mongoloid admixture they were roughly on average 80% Europoid and 20% Mongoloid. They wold have still look Europoid with little to no Mongoloid features. We can see North Africans are 22-24% Sub-Saharan African but when you look at them the vast majority look like a straight hair Caucasoid males, some look Caucasoid with curly hair but very few look like a Ethiopian /Somalian type ( don't confuse the Black North African who are descendants of African slave trade or the Black/African north African 7-9th generation descendants, they make up a substantial of North Africa's population today but but are not proper north Africans) so the same would apply to Scythians and Tocharians.
The more west, the more mixed, buddy.

Userius

01-17-2018, 02:40 AM

What you call "Tocharian" has nothing to do with the IE language found in the Tarim basin. Tochar is a well-known misnomer and is included within Turkic tribal groups by Mahmud al-Kashgari.
I've heard this before, but I'm not sure what people mean by it. Maybe the name means something else, but it does still refer to the same people that it always referred to. The only thing questionable is whether they were the same as the Yuezhi, who pushed out the Saka and became known as the Kushan, due to the former speaking a branch more akin to Anatolian and Celtic, and the latter speaking Bactrian.

Userius

01-17-2018, 03:19 AM

Let's just put this to rest though. Regardless of what the old Scythians were "more like", there's no real claim to them by anyone. Tomyris wasn't some Uzbek woman. Massagetae were bearded and hairy. Most Turkic national origin tales (AFAIK) speak of ancestral movement from further north in Siberia. There is ethnic and religious confusion through and through. The runes they used most clearly resemble the Turkic ones. Some religious aspects are more Zoroastrian especially in the case of fire rituals performed by Sarmatian tribes and references to an "Urmaysde" among the Saka, other things are more "nomadic" in origin, although not quite close to Turkic either. I'm not sure if any people from the area still divines events by throwing reeds or worships deities like Api or Tabiti.

Here's something I have to ask while hopefully not being offensive by doing so: Was there ever any real "Tengri" religion. The name is attested on some inscriptions, but was it ever really some supreme deity/ancestor that all Turkic people acknowledged to the same degree and that had specific rituals attached to it? It seems like the Tengriism mentioned today is the result of a lot of romanticism like many other such nostalgic revivals.

Mingle

01-17-2018, 03:23 AM

Yup there was not a Scythian state. There was also not a Scythian ethnicity.
And that's also true they weren't (at least not all) Iranians as the Stalinist falsified, fabricated, Pro-Ossetic hypothesis claimed.

Scythian was the generic term for East Iranics. They were called 'Saka' in Indo-Iranic languages.

Just because some non-Iranics were called Scythians centuries later doesn't mean that Scythians didn't exist. That was just an example of an inconsistency/mistake.

Ossetian people were descended from Sarmates, who are an Iranic people that were called Scythians in the past.

Mingle

01-17-2018, 03:27 AM

What you call "Tocharian" has nothing to do with the IE language found in the Tarim basin. Tochar is a well-known misnomer and is included within Turkic tribal groups by Mahmud al-Kashgari.

I'm glad someone else knows this. It's a huge misnomer that causes a lot of confusion. Tocharian languages should be renamed 'Tarimian languages'.

Tokharistan was used to refer to Bactria when it was Iranic speaking in the first millennium AD and the name far predates any Turkic expansion into Middle Asia, so I disagree with the latter part of your comment.

Leto

01-17-2018, 04:20 PM

Scythian was the generic term for East Iranics. They were called 'Saka' in Indo-Iranic languages.

Just because some non-Iranics were called Scythians centuries later doesn't mean that Scythians didn't exist. That was just an example of an inconsistency/mistake.

Ossetian people were descended from Sarmates, who are an Iranic people that were called Scythians in the past.
Excuse me, have you taken a test? You must have some real Aryan DNA from the Andronovo. :) However, if you are not from Afghanistan, you must also be more South Asian-shifted than Afghans.

Mingle

01-17-2018, 04:33 PM

Excuse me, have you taken a test? You must have some real Aryan DNA from the Andronovo. :) However, if you are not from Afghanistan, you must also be more South Asian-shifted than Afghans.I did but haven't gotten my results yet. On 23andMe, the DNA extraction phase just finished this morning and they are on the DNA analysis phase now. Results might be in in a month from now I'm guessing. I'm from Northwest Pakistan.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

Leto

01-17-2018, 04:35 PM

I did but haven't gotten my results yet. On 23andMe, the DNA extraction phase just finished this morning and they are on the DNA analysis phase now. Results might be in in a month from now I'm guessing. I'm from Northwest Pakistan.
Alright. Let's wait for 'em. By the way, are you dark like stereotypical Pakistanis?

Mingle

01-17-2018, 04:42 PM

Alright. Let's wait for 'em. By the way, are you dark like stereotypical Pakistanis?No. I'll show you my pic later when I get home.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

Vlatko Vukovic

01-17-2018, 11:25 PM

Stalin replaced God for the baboon masses in the USSR once upon a time. Entire cities, factories, car brands were named after Father Stalin.
Soviet historiography gifted Scythians for Thou Father Stalin. Just to appear kind.
The same Stalinist school to this day still pretends Viking Rus' clan wasn't Viking (Germanic) but Balto-Slav!

It's funny how the civilized world kept on that Stalinist history revisionism and falsifications. They still insist all the pastoralist nomads between South Siberia and Crimea were all 'Iranic' ... In fact that's just crazy.

Viking Rus wasn't Slavic, but Germanic for sure, but for sure they were the large minority among Slavs.
Also, monk Nestor in the "Primary Chronicles" is saying to us that Slavic and Finnic tribes first expelled Vikings when they tried to invade modern day West Russia, and then after they (Rus' tribe) lost, they were invited by Slavic and Finnic tribes to rule among them, becouse they were in many conflicts before it.

Gangrel

01-17-2018, 11:27 PM

Alright. Let's wait for 'em. By the way, are you dark like stereotypical Pakistanis?

He looks Azerbaijani tbh

Proto-Shaman

01-18-2018, 10:16 AM

Tokharistan was used to refer to Bactria when it was Iranic speaking in the first millennium AD and the name far predates any Turkic expansion into Middle Asia, so I disagree with the latter part of your comment.
The difference is that Tokharistan was just a region, not an ethnic name, its basically a Turkic word: Tokh "mountain" + ar "people", its the people of Togarmah, son of Gomer, one of the 24 Oghuz clans. Armenians, Georgians and Turks descended from this ancient guy.

https://i.imgur.com/4jUP6Sm.png

And how can Turks have migrated into Middle Asia in the late 1st millennium AD, when there were already Turks in Europe in the early 1st millenium AD? :confused::confused::confused:

Proto-Shaman

01-22-2018, 04:29 PM

Gedrosia K3

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hazara @ 1.092248
2 Irula @ 4.759782
3 Kattunayakkan @ 5.122586
4 Nihali @ 6.114567
5 Madiga @ 8.526909
6 Chenchu @ 8.873101
7 Hallkipiki @ 9.133532
8 Mala @ 9.250433
9 Gond @ 10.722106
10 Kamsali @ 11.002162
11 Paniyas @ 11.521728
12 Bengali @ 11.555750
13 UP_Chamar @ 11.572104
14 Bhil @ 13.876436
15 Kallar @ 14.021095
16 Tharu @ 14.205913
17 Piramalai @ 14.480849
18 Kyrgyz @ 16.874592
19 Bhumij @ 17.202101
20 Kurumba @ 17.260006

Using 2 populations approximation:
..1 50% Nganasan +50% Tajik_Pomiri @ 0.000000
..6 50% Turkmen +50% Yukagir @ 0.425719
..8 50% Kyrgyz +50% Uzbek @ 0.431844
..9 50% Changapa +50% Kalash @ 0.485189
10 50% Changapa +50% Pashtun_Afghan @ 0.618841
12 50% UP_Brahmin +50% Yukagir @ 0.745615
14 50% Burusho +50% Yukagir @ 0.784907
16 50% Kyrgyz +50% UP_Caste @ 0.788417
17 50% GujaratiB +50% Yukagir @ 0.811810

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Altaian +25% Altaian +25% Chechen @ 0.000000 <---- !

Yaglakar

01-22-2018, 06:16 PM

Here's something I have to ask while hopefully not being offensive by doing so: Was there ever any real "Tengri" religion. The name is attested on some inscriptions, but was it ever really some supreme deity/ancestor that all Turkic people acknowledged to the same degree and that had specific rituals attached to it? It seems like the Tengriism mentioned today is the result of a lot of romanticism like many other such nostalgic revivals.

Currently no evidence exists that Tengri (Täŋri) was some kind of a deity, let alone ‘religion’. It is not even clear if such notorious figures as Genghis khan believed in Tengri. ‘By the power of Eternal Heaven’ (Tengri) was used by the old Turks and later Mongols as an ultimatum, a statement indicating inevitability of fate, or coercing to acknowledge the inevitable. Tengri was a call to the heavens/sky. In medieval old Uighur documents, literary/religious works Tengri simply meant sky/heavens. Considering all of the above we can firmly attest that Christianity is in fact a religion of Tengri (our Father, who art in heaven). (NOT) Even cro-magnons had some kind of belief systems with an afterlife and likely called onto heavens. But to call their beliefs and practices as ‘religion’ would be farfetched.

Böri

01-22-2018, 06:47 PM

Currently no evidence exists that Tengri (Täŋri) was some kind of a deity, let alone ‘religion’. It is not even clear if such notorious figures as Genghis khan believed in Tengri. ‘By the power of Eternal Heaven’ (Tengri) was used by the old Turks and later Mongols as an ultimatum, a statement indicating inevitability of fate, or coercing to acknowledge the inevitable. Tengri was a call to the heavens/sky. In medieval old Uighur documents, literary/religious works Tengri simply meant sky/heavens. Considering all of the above we can firmly attest that Christianity is in fact a religion of Tengri (our Father, who art in heaven). (NOT) Even cro-magnons had some kind of belief systems with an afterlife and likely called onto heavens. But to call their beliefs and practices as ‘religion’ would be farfetched.

Sky God (Gök Tengri) was referred to as one God.
If it was simply nature or universe, that wouldn't be something countable.

Ibn Fadlan reports during his journey to Bulgar, while travelling lands of Oğuz Turks somewhere around north-east of Caspian.

Ibn Fadlān and the Land of Darkness
Arab Travellers in the Far North
chapter about Oghuz Turks

https://i.hizliresim.com/JQ4k0Y.jpg
...
https://i.hizliresim.com/76bMEY.jpg

That's around 920 or 921 when the Oghuz weren't Muslims.

Yaglakar

01-22-2018, 07:05 PM

Sky God (Gök Tengri) was referred to as one God.
If it was simply nature or universe, that wouldn't be something countable.

Ibn Fadlan reports during his journey to Bulgar, while travelling lands of Oğuz Turks somewhere around north-east of Caspian.

Ibn Fadlān and the Land of Darkness
Arab Travellers in the Far North
chapter about Oghuz Turks

https://i.hizliresim.com/JQ4k0Y.jpg
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https://i.hizliresim.com/76bMEY.jpg

In 920's the Oghuz weren't Muslims.

'One' god is even more far fetched than considering Tengri a deity (among others) which in itself is far fetched. There is no 'reliable' evidence from the Turkic runes or Uighur documents or even with later Mongol conquests that 'Tengri' was some kind of a 'deity'. They did not have to be Muslims, they could have adopted notions and understanding from neighboring 'monotheistic' populations. 10th century is pretty late and these tribes were out of the 'core land'.

Böri

01-22-2018, 07:14 PM

'One' god is even more far fetched than considering Tengri a deity (among others) which in itself is far fetched. There is no 'reliable' evidence from the Turkic runes or Uighur documents or even with later Mongol conquests that 'Tengri' was some kind of a 'deity'. They did not have to be Muslims, they could have adopted notions and understanding from neighboring 'monotheistic' populations. 10th century is pretty late and these tribes were out of the 'core land'.

It was not like God in Semitic religions but it was definitely a deity unlike you pretend. You have many hints for that even in the old inscriptions.

Just as when Bilge Khagan refers to the role of Sky – Tengri in the inscriptions: ‘All human sons are born to die in time, as determined by Tengri’.

Or from Kul-Tegin monumental complex, when it says: ‘As Tengri (Sky) gave them strength, the army of Khagan my father was like a wolf, and his enemies like sheep’.

Tengri is a deity here.
Tengri is here a countable, one, metaphysical power who interferes in worldly affairs.

Yaglakar

01-22-2018, 09:02 PM

It was not like God in Semitic religions but it was definitely a deity unlike you pretend. You have many hints for that even in the old inscriptions.

Just as when Bilge Khagan refers to the role of Sky – Tengri in the inscriptions: ‘All human sons are born to die in time, as determined by Tengri’.

Or from Kul-Tegin monumental complex, when it says: ‘As Tengri (Sky) gave them strength, the army of Khagan my father was like a wolf, and his enemies like sheep’.

Tengri is a deity here.
Tengri is here a countable, one, metaphysical power who interferes in worldly affairs.

Tariat inscriptions (Mongolia):

teηride bolmyš el etmiš bilge qaγan el bilge qatun qaγan ataγ qatun ataγ atanyp ötüken kedin učynta tez bašynta örgin…
I heavenly/sky born El Etmish Bilge Qaghan along with heavenly/sky born El Bilge Khatun accepted titles Kaghan and Khatun…

kök teηri jarlyqaduq üčün asra jaγyz jer igit(t)ük üčün elimim törümin etinti…
As the blue sky above condescended and the brown earth below nurtured me, my people and my laws were created…

teηride bolmyš el etmiš bilge qanym ičreki boduny alytmyš…
My heavenly/sky born El Etmish Bilge Qaghan went to subjugate all the tribes….

Later Uighur Buddhist sutra from Qocho:

Yır Täŋri törümishtä bärü bay ymä bar, yog chiğay ymä bar
Since the creation of earth and sky, the rich and the poor exist

Notice how Tengri (sky) and yır/yär (earth) are often used in context, simultaneously both in the steppe runes and urban texts, so according to your argumentation, the brown earth below is also a deity?

In regards to Kultigin translation “‘All human sons are born to die in time, as determined by Tengri’.” and “As Tengri (Sky) gave them strength, the army of Khagan my father was like a wolf, and his enemies like sheep”. They again prove my points I made earlier. Tengri in this context is used as ‘fate determined by sky’, as an ‘object’ from which power, strength is obtained and as an inevitability of events that are to come. Also we need to look at the translation from an academic publication as words might be placed in certain order to indicate something which is absent in the original.

Of course Tengri/sky/heaven is one, when you go outside do you see some kind of a crack or splitting of the sky? You are trying to find meaning where there is none. Mongols after conversion to Buddhism had 1000 Tengries flying in the sky, does it mean there were 1000 Tengries originally?

Descriptions of the Arab traveler about ‘bir tengri’ of the Oghuz Turks are to be evaluated cautiously. Arab/Persian sources about Turkic peoples are of little real academic value. For example Muslim sources dubbed Qocho Uighurs, Karakhanids, and many other differing Turkic tribes from Mongolia as far as Caspian Sea having Toquz Oghuz origin. Similar to terms Saracens and Franks during the Crusades. The absurdity went even further when medieval Muslim sources started calling everyone remotely resembling a man on horseback as ‘Türk’ including Mongols and many other unrelated peoples.

onetwopunch

01-22-2018, 10:21 PM

Scythians were basically Turkic / Turk.

Vlatko Vukovic

01-22-2018, 10:25 PM

Scythians were basically Turkic / Turk.

"Scythians" were broad term for people of various origin under this name.

Proto-Shaman

01-22-2018, 10:31 PM

Scythians were basically Turkic / Turk.

Join Date: Oct 2012
Total posts: 13

Who are you?

onetwopunch

01-22-2018, 10:49 PM

Join Date: Oct 2012
Total posts: 13

Who are you?

I use talpatalk. Why?

Böri

01-23-2018, 05:17 PM

Tariat inscriptions (Mongolia):

teηride bolmyš el etmiš bilge qaγan el bilge qatun qaγan ataγ qatun ataγ atanyp ötüken kedin učynta tez bašynta örgin…
I heavenly/sky born El Etmish Bilge Qaghan along with heavenly/sky born El Bilge Khatun accepted titles Kaghan and Khatun…

kök teηri jarlyqaduq üčün asra jaγyz jer igit(t)ük üčün elimim törümin etinti…
As the blue sky above condescended and the brown earth below nurtured me, my people and my laws were created…

teηride bolmyš el etmiš bilge qanym ičreki boduny alytmyš…
My heavenly/sky born El Etmish Bilge Qaghan went to subjugate all the tribes….

Later Uighur Buddhist sutra from Qocho:

Yır Täŋri törümishtä bärü bay ymä bar, yog chiğay ymä bar
Since the creation of earth and sky, the rich and the poor exist

Notice how Tengri (sky) and yır/yär (earth) are often used in context, simultaneously both in the steppe runes and urban texts, so according to your argumentation, the brown earth below is also a deity?

In regards to Kultigin translation “‘All human sons are born to die in time, as determined by Tengri’.” and “As Tengri (Sky) gave them strength, the army of Khagan my father was like a wolf, and his enemies like sheep”. They again prove my points I made earlier. Tengri in this context is used as ‘fate determined by sky’, as an ‘object’ from which power, strength is obtained and as an inevitability of events that are to come. Also we need to look at the translation from an academic publication as words might be placed in certain order to indicate something which is absent in the original.

Of course Tengri/sky/heaven is one, when you go outside do you see some kind of a crack or splitting of the sky? You are trying to find meaning where there is none. Mongols after conversion to Buddhism had 1000 Tengries flying in the sky, does it mean there were 1000 Tengries originally?

Descriptions of the Arab traveler about ‘bir tengri’ of the Oghuz Turks are to be evaluated cautiously. Arab/Persian sources about Turkic peoples are of little real academic value. For example Muslim sources dubbed Qocho Uighurs, Karakhanids, and many other differing Turkic tribes from Mongolia as far as Caspian Sea having Toquz Oghuz origin. Similar to terms Saracens and Franks during the Crusades. The absurdity went even further when medieval Muslim sources started calling everyone remotely resembling a man on horseback as ‘Türk’ including Mongols and many other unrelated peoples.

It doesn't matter, it doesn't need Tengri has the same attributes of Testament's God or Kuran's Allah to be a deity

The evolution through time of the Tengri's attributes, what they became and so don't really matter here.

The thing is Tengri is absolutely a deity.
It's an entity, separate from humans who creates, makes choice, prefers some humans over others, he is countable.

Ibn Fadlan's report on Oghuz Turks (who weren't Muslim yet) about 'Bir Tengre' is important.
Western academics and historiography consider his writings as highly reliable since Fadlan gave objective information about Rus (Vikings with cremation ceremony description), Oghuz, Bulgars and anyone he met.
He talks bad about Oghuz Turks, he explains their habits which he finds weird and explains that bir tengri story.

So, that Fadlan isn't reliable source isn't correct.

Yaglakar

01-24-2018, 04:39 PM

It doesn't matter, it doesn't need Tengri has the same attributes of Testament's God or Kuran's Allah to be a deity

The evolution through time of the Tengri's attributes, what they became and so don't really matter here.

The thing is Tengri is absolutely a deity.
It's an entity, separate from humans who creates, makes choice, prefers some humans over others, he is countable.

Ibn Fadlan's report on Oghuz Turks (who weren't Muslim yet) about 'Bir Tengre' is important.
Western academics and historiography consider his writings as highly reliable since Fadlan gave objective information about Rus (Vikings with cremation ceremony description), Oghuz, Bulgars and anyone he met.
He talks bad about Oghuz Turks, he explains their habits which he finds weird and explains that bir tengri story.

So, that Fadlan isn't reliable source isn't correct.

I conducted a little research and apparently you are taking Fadlan’s remark of ‘bir tengrich’ out of context.

“Nevertheless, when they have agreed on something and have decided to do it, the basest and most wretched of them can come and break the agreement. I have heard them say: ‘There is no god but God; Muhammad is the Messenger of God’ to make a good impression on the Muslims who stay with them, but they do not believe in this firmly. If one of them suffers an injustice, or something bad happens to him, he lifts his head to heaven and says ‘bir tengri’, which means ‘by the one God’ in the language of the Turks, for bir in Turkish means one and tengri is God.” Ibn Fadlan, Ibn Fadlan and the Land of Darkness: Arab Travellers in the Far North (Penguin Classics, 2012), p. 49

“Even more disturbing for Ibn Fadlan is that instead of turning to God, the poor Oghuz chose to lead a life divorced from religion and reason. In his own harsh words, the Oghuz are like al-hamir al-dhalla, that is, strayed asses. Given that they lack a monotheistic din (religion) and are uncaring about ʿaql (reason), it is no wonder that the Oghuz count their chieftains as gods. After Ibn Fadlan fails to convince one of the powerful Oghuz chieftains to convert to Islam, he denies them any positive attributes in religious affairs. Perhaps the result of this failure pushed him to accuse all Oghuz of religious ignorance. Doubting possible future conversions to Islam, Ibn Fadlan warns his readers that the Oghuz care more about filling their own purses than enlightening their souls and minds. Every time an Oghuz man, he tells us, wants to gain money or gifts from Muslim merchants, he pretends to be Muslim by saying bir tengrich, meaning there is only one God.” Nizar F. Hermes, The [European] Other in Medieval Arabic Literature and Culture: Ninth-Twelfth Century AD (Palgrave Macmillan, 2012), p. 84

Tengri cannot be countable because in the eyes of old Turks sky was infinite stretching endlessly in all directions, the way sky visually appears to a clueless steppe onlooker. This is all comparable to early Islamic cosmology where Quran describes the moon following the sun, and the stars falling (meteors, comets in reality) because they are located in ‘nearest’ heaven (closer than both the moon and the sun). As I previously stated, Tengri was used to refer to all kinds of things, the sky/heavens themselves, a supernatural force, in Irk Bitig (9th century) there is reference to ‘yol täƞri’ (Tengri of roads). Various interpretations and meanings related to Tengri started appearing only after the influx of Iranian and Sogdian refugees (Nestorians, Manicheans) into the Eastern Steppes following Arab Muslim onslaught of Transoxiana. There are no common rituals, beliefs, practices or burial rites connected to Tengri. It is not even clear if the old Turks worshipped Tengri/Sky/Heavens.