What's wrong in Lithuania and the Baltic states? Lithuania named EU's murder capital

[Agrippa]

Vilnius: You are more likely to be murdered in the Baltic state of Lithuania than anywhere else in the European Union, according to figures released on Tuesday by the EU's official statistics agency, Eurostat.

In a report on crime trends over recent years, Lithuania saw an average 8.76 murders per 100,000 heads of population every year during the period 2002-8, Eurostat said, making Lithuania the EU's murder capital by some margin.

Another Baltic state, Estonia, recorded the second-highest level with 6.6 murders per 100,000 residents. Complete data was not available for the third Baltic state, Latvia, but incomplete figures suggested a similar rate to that of Estonia.

'The figures suggest that Lithuania and Estonia have by far the highest incidence of homicides ... The only other countries reporting more than two cases a year per hundred thousand population were Finland, Bulgaria, Scotland, Romania, the Czech Republic and Ireland,' Eurostat reported.


The lowest murder rates were observed in Austria, Slovenia and Germany, all of which had less than one homicide per 100,000 of population.

Lithuania's capital Vilnius ranked first in terms of homicide statistics among EU capital cities with 8.28 murders per 100,000 residents, followed by Tallinn in Estonia with 6.04 and Luxembourg with 3.98.

On a more positive note, Lithuania was also amongst the EU states that saw one of the largest drops in levels of violent crime during the same period.

http://www.sify.com/news/lithuania-named-eu-s-murder-capital-news-international-kmbaaygfdbh.html

If the statistics are true and Lithuania has such a dramatically higher homicide rate, what are the reasons?

I mean even Romania has a MUCH, MUCH smaller rate for murder and that with an economy not much better off and a huge number of Gypsies, making up a large portion of the criminal activities for example.

So my question, especially to "the regionals", what are the reasons, in your opinion, for the extremely high homicide rates? Or do you even doubt the numbers? Faked statistics?

Is it about locals or immigrants?

Drugs and alcohol?

The lack of a social system and security? Because in the Western countries, those with the most inequal social and economic systems, lack of social security and massive foreign, non-integrable immigration, are those with relatively higher crime and homicide rates - though none of them comes even close to the homicide-rates in the Baltic states it seems.

What are the reasons in your opinion and what's to do to change that?

[Talvi]

The answer is Russians. :P

[EWtt]

Another Baltic state, Estonia, recorded the second-highest level with 6.6 murders per 100,000 residents.

In case of Estonia it's quite clear which nationality is mostly behind violent crimes and makes up the majority of the population in our prisons. I guess when these researches are made, it's too politically incorrect to mention it.

I presume the reasons are similar in Latvia, but I don't have a clue about Lithuania. I suppose they don't have such a large immigrant population earning them "high places" in such statistics?

[Heretik]

Oh, Karl's gonna love this one. :D

[The Ripper]

The answer is Russians. :P

Lithuania has relatively few Russians, though.

[Talvi]

Lithuania has relatively few Russians, though.

Oh.. lucky Lithuanians. In that case, I dont know whats up with them.

Not that Estonians arent mean murderers and all but I swear almost half of the reports you hear here about Estonians doing evil mischief (especially overseas) are by individuals with Slavic names.

[Heretik]

Always those subhuman Slavs! Always!

[Talvi]

Im sorry. Russians have made me bitter. I dont really mean Slavic. I mean Russian.

[Radola]

Always those subhuman Slavs! Always!

Ofc, I shouldn´t post my surname anywhere on the Apricity, otherwise I would be considered a murderer!!:D

[Heretik]

Let's all make a "Hide your Slavic heritage" month here at the Apricity. :thumbs up

[Guapo]

Chechen terrorists? Nah...

[Eldritch]

The vodka belt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_belts_of_Europe#Vodka_belt) (except for Scandinavia) is more violent generally. No idea why Lithuania is exceptionally violent even in this league. :confused:

[Talvi]

:/ dont you try to make me feel guilty for saying Russians!! I think we can all bring enough examples of how in most countries minorities tend to have more problems with life quality.

Although, scary now, in a hundred years, on a tour to Vilnius you are being told how it used to be the Murder Capital of EU... sounds much cooler that way.

But being more serious I am actually surprised Estonia is there. I dont feel particularly unsafe, nor do I hear about people getting killed all the time, so I for one had no ideas.

Girls however tend to be told to avoid the more Russian parts or the poorer areas of Tallinn at night. (Lasnamäe, Kopli...)

[Eldritch]

Girls however tend to be told to avoid the more Russian parts or the poorer areas of Tallinn at night. (Lasnamäe, Kopli...)

I'm a guy and there's no way I'd go there, even in daytime.

[Heretik]

http://www.talkbx.com/forum/gallery/images/38/large/1_Bronx07.jpg

Looks dangerous.

[Radola]

seems like a typical Slavic dwelling...Nice one bro.:D

[Heretik]

Missing a Stalin statue though. :tsk: :tsk:

[Vasconcelos]

"Broken Promises", "Decay"...highly motivating! :thumb001:

[Radola]

Missing a Stalin statue though. :tsk: :tsk:

They were probably short of money, so they had to sell the statue as an old scrap iron...;)

[Heretik]

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/staljin.jpg

There, looks more Slavic already. :hail:

[Radola]

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/staljin.jpg

There, looks more Slavic already. :hail:

I see a problem, there´s written: SZTÁLIN, it seems to be Hungarian!:eek::D

[Heretik]

Ah, Slavs... Illiterate as always. :tsk:

[Guapo]

Bring back the "S" in Tallinn!

[Heretik]

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/stalliinn.png

[Radola]

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/stalliinn.png

Have you hacked "da google map"?:D How irresponsible and vandalizing, typical slawische behavior...:mmmm: Beware of a cruel estonian revenge!

[Heretik]

Estonian revenge will be swift and merciless. I'll get at least a 1000 negative reps from Karl. Oh... My... :eek: :cry

[The Ripper]

Let's all make a "Hide your Slavic heritage" month here at the Apricity. :thumbs up

Why? We already have "Balkan Slavs at each others throat month," followed by "United Slav Front at Karl's Throat month". :D

[Breedingvariety]

What can I say- Lithuanians are angry lot.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Russians make up around 15% of Vilnius population. That's too much if you ask me.

[Talvi]

and Russians make up about 50% of Tallinns population. What a culture shock it was to move there from a town with around maybe 5% or Russians.

[Heretik]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Homicide-world.png

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/murd.gif

Dangerous lands these Baltic states. Must be because of all the Russians there. :tsk:

[Radola]

MRgFtRa964A

Yea, Russians seem to be pretty evil, at least according to this song :sad:

[Äike]

So my question, especially to "the regionals", what are the reasons, in your opinion, for the extremely high homicide rates? Or do you even doubt the numbers? Faked statistics?

Is it about locals or immigrants?

Drugs and alcohol?

Russians combined with extremely large amounts of alcohol and drugs...

It's not rare when you can read news like this, "Dmitri stabbed Vladimir in drunken rage, Vladimir bled to death."

The majority of the Estonian prison population is Russian, although they are a minority. The majority of Estonia's crime is centered in Tallinn(50% are immigrants) and Ida-Virumaa(mostly Russian county in Eastern-Estonia, it includes the 3rd largest city in Estonia, which is over 90% Russian).

"Ironically", the smallest amount of crime is in Saaremaa and Hiiumaa. Hiiumaa is by percentage the most Estonian part of Estonia, Saaremaa comes second.

If you want to become a police officer in Estonia and do not speak a single word of Russian, then the interviewers during the job conversation would be laughing in tears.

[The Ripper]

Finns combined with extremely large amounts of alcohol and pills...

It's not rare when you can read news like this, "Arska stabbed Reiska in drunken rage, Reiska bled to death."

This is violent crime in Finland. ;)

[Äike]

This is violent crime in Finland. ;)

This topic isn't about Finland. But I have to say that Finland is very lucky by having an extremely small immigrant population. Finland is 99% Finnish/Finn-Swedish.

[The Ripper]

This topic isn't about Finland. But I have to say that Finland is very lucky by having an extremely small immigrant population. Finland is 99% Finnish/Finn-Swedish.

Statistically speaking, Finland is in the same "range" with these Baltic countries.

We are still a relatively violent country. Violence in our region is not entirely dependent on Russian presence.

[Äike]

Statistically speaking, Finland is in the same "range" with these Baltic countries.

We are still a relatively violent country. Violence in our region is not entirely dependent on Russian presence.

Oh yes, I do know about that. Knives and Finns go hand in hand in Sweden, like knives and Russians go hand in hand in Estonia. Right? :D

[The Ripper]

Oh yes, I do know about that. Knives and Finns go hand in hand in Sweden, like knives and Russians go hand in hand in Estonia. Right? :D

Perhaps we are to Swedes what Russians are to you? If you look at Heretik's map, Russia is most violent and Scandinavia least violent with a transitional zone along the Baltic countries, including Finland. ;)

[Breedingvariety]

Drugs and alcohol?
I see drugs and alcohol abuse to be a symptom of bad morality, not a cause of immoral actions.

[Äike]

Perhaps we are to Swedes what Russians are to you? If you look at Heretik's map, Russia is most violent and Scandinavia least violent with a transitional zone along the Baltic countries, including Finland. ;)

Just the small difference is that the violent crimes in Finland are made by the (natives) Finns, while the violent crimes in Estonia are made by the (immigrants) Russians.

[The Ripper]

Just the small difference is that the violent crimes in Finland are made by the (natives) Finns, while the violent crimes in Estonia are made by the (immigrants) Russians.

Estonians are the only ethnic group in the world who don't commit crimes? What is the crime rate of Estonians, do you have any stats, or are you talking out of your ass? I doubt they would significantly deviate from e.g. Finns.

[Äike]

Estonians are the only ethnic group in the world who don't commit crimes? What is the crime rate of Estonians, do you have any stats, or are you talking out of your ass? I doubt they would significantly deviate from e.g. Finns.

Estonians do crimes, of course, but I already proved my point when I said that the majority of the prisoners in Estonia are of Russian heritage.

Estonians also lack the Finnish "violent gene" (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=319143&postcount=1).

[The Ripper]

Estonians do crimes, of course, but I already proved my point when I said that the majority of the prisoners in Estonia are of Russian heritage.

Prove your point by giving me the murder rate of Estonians.


Estonians also lack the Finnish "violent gene" (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=319143&postcount=1).

So? Russians lack it too, yet they manage without quite well. ;)

[Äike]

Prove your point by giving me the murder rate of Estonians.

I do not have such data, nor am I willing to browse around in stat.ee

If you're saying that Estonians murder more people in Estonia every year, than the immigrants/Russians do, then I would say that you should prove your claims.

You said that you sometimes read Estonian news, I'm certain that a few "Dmitri stabbed Vladimir" news should have passed your eyes.

Russians making 3/4 of the prison population of Estonia should be proof enough.


So? Russians lack it too, yet they manage without quite well. ;)

Their Mongol heritage makes up for it. ;)

[The Ripper]

I do not have such data, nor am I willing to browse around in stat.ee

If you're saying that Estonians murder more people in Estonia every year, than the immigrants/Russians do, then I would say that you should prove your claims.

First you have to prove I've made such claims! :D

It is you who implied that Estonians are less violently criminal than Finns. ("In Estonia Russians commit crimes, in Finland Finns") Well, not in Finland at least. But it would be interesting to know how their crime rate compares, when the they are seen seperately from the Russian minority.


You said that you sometimes read Estonian news, I'm certain that a few "Dmitri stabbed Vladimir" news should have passed your eyes.

Russians making 3/4 of the prison population of Estonia should be proof enough.
This only proves that Russians in Estonia are more violently criminal than Estonians. It doesn't prove that Estonians have a lower rate than Finns, as you insinuated. So stop beating about the bush and come out with something that can be construed as evidence in one direction or other.

[Guapo]

Russians combined with extremely large amounts of alcohol and drugs...

It's not rare when you can read news like this, "Dmitri stabbed Vladimir in drunken rage, Vladimir bled to death."

The majority of the Estonian prison population is Russian, although they are a minority. The majority of Estonia's crime is centered in Tallinn(50% are immigrants) and Ida-Virumaa(mostly Russian county in Eastern-Estonia, it includes the 3rd largest city in Estonia, which is over 90% Russian).

"Ironically", the smallest amount of crime is in Saaremaa and Hiiumaa. Hiiumaa is by percentage the most Estonian part of Estonia, Saaremaa comes second.

If you want to become a police officer in Estonia and do not speak a single word of Russian, then the interviewers during the job conversation would be laughing in tears.

Do you actually live under a rock? Have you ever left your basement is what I am asking.

[The Ripper]

Do you actually live under a rock? Have you ever left your basement is what I am asking.

With all due respect, its you who don't have a clue about the Russian minority in Estonia.

[Äike]

First you have to prove I've made such claims! :D

It is you who implied that Estonians are less violently criminal than Finns. ("In Estonia Russians commit crimes, in Finland Finns") Well, not in Finland at least. But it would be interesting to know how their crime rate compares, when the they are seen seperately from the Russian minority.


This only proves that Russians in Estonia are more violently criminal than Estonians. It doesn't prove that Estonians have a lower rate than Finns, as you insinuated. So stop beating about the bush and come out with something that can be construed as evidence in one direction or other.

You misinterpreted my post at first. I was just claiming that the crime in Estonia is caused by Russians, while the crime in Finland is caused by the Finns(as Finland is 99% native). None of those factors could be read as "Finns are more violent than the Estonians".

I do not know who is more violent, the Estonians or the Finns, nor do I care that much. :)


Do you actually live under a rock? Have you ever left your basement is what I am asking.

Nah, I live in Tallinn.

[The Ripper]

You misinterpreted my post at first. I was just claiming that the crime in Estonia is caused by Russians, while the crime in Finland is caused by the Finns(as Finland is 99% native). None of those factors could be read as "Finns are more violent than the Estonians".

Well when I said that most of Finnish violent crime is very similar to that category of "Vladimir stabs Igor with vodka bottle", you said that in Estonia only Russians do that, while in Finland it is Finns. May be you should learn to be balanced in your opinions instead of trying to fit everything into that Nordic paradigm of yours. I would guess Estonians are significantly more violent than Scandinavians on average, just like Finns.

[Äike]

Well when I said that most of Finnish violent crime is very similar to that category of "Vladimir stabs Igor with vodka bottle", you said that in Estonia only Russians do that, while in Finland it is Finns. May be you should learn to be balanced in your opinions instead of trying to fit everything into that Nordic paradigm of yours. I would guess Estonians are significantly more violent than Scandinavians on average, just like Finns.

If I could post in Estonian, then there would be less misunderstandings.

My point was, if Finland is 99% native, then it's logical that most of the crime is done by the people who belong into that 99% group.

While in the case of Estonia, Estonians make 70% of the total population, but most of the criminals aren't part of the 70%, they are a part of the 30% minority, which is a majority in the prisons.


I just do no understand how anyone could get offended if I say "the ethnic group which composes 99% of your country's population is responsible for most of the crimes in your country".

In any normal country, where the natives are an absolute majority, most of the crime is caused by them. Estonia is an exception, of course, because the immigrant population is quite large and the immigrant population itself is very inclined for doing crime from the start.

[The Ripper]

If I could post in Estonian, then there would be less misunderstandings.

I doubt it, my Estonian is not that good.

Its very convenient to blame Russians for everything. I think it would be more interesting to discuss this violent behaviour of Balts, Estonians and Finns, because they clearly are more violent than Scandinavians.

[Äike]

I doubt it, my Estonian is not that good.

Again a small misinterpretation. I meant that if I could post in my native language and the lingua franca would be Estonian, then my posts would be more understandable in the same sense as the posts of Anglo-sphere people are more understandable. Thus my last post isn't related to your Estonian language skill in any way.

[Äike]

Its very convenient to blame Russians for everything.

Not blaming the Russians would be going around in circles, as they responsible for most bad things here, be it crime or HIV.

Example of Russian immigrants being solely responsible for the HIV epidemic in Estonia:

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1117/russiansinestoniahiv.jpg


I think it would be more interesting to discuss this violent behaviour of Balts, Estonians and Finns, because they clearly are more violent than Scandinavians.

I have no idea about the Balts, but I seriously doubt that the Estonians would be more violent than the Finns(who have an unique "Finnish" violent gene). It's also my personal observation that Estonians aren't violent, I also haven't noticed that the Finns would be violent. Both groups are just stoic, cold and reserved.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Stabbing + other violent acts under the influence of alcohol is quite an international phenomena, and happens everywhere. Even Göran does this to Börje.
Violence has historically been a larger problem in Finland than in the Scandinavian countries. This has been explained by a troubled history with a lot of wars (thank you, Russia) and a more chauvinistic society.
In Finland drunken violent behaviour today seems to be significantly more common in rural areas where unemployment is high. According to a professor of some sort, with these areas excluded from the statistics, the Finnish figures are western European median (If I remember the radio interview right. I was drunk driving at the time, speeding away from the Poliisi after stabbing my buddy Rami...).
If I may add to Karl's and Riippus conversation, one intresting thing is that Estonians make up the largest group of foreigners in Finnish prisons. I dont know how many Sergeis there are in that group.
Anyway, there are too many Russians in the Baltic states as it seeems that the Balts have enoguh balls to stabb each other without the help of the Russians. Maybe it's the Finno-Ugrian genetic legacy after all;)

[Innar]

Where I live the rate is 60 murders per 100,000 residents, I blame the russians too.

[The Ripper]

Not blaming the Russians would be going around in circles, as they responsible for most bad things here, be it crime or HIV.

Is it impossible to talk about Estonian behaviour without talking about Russian behaviour? :confused:


I have no idea about the Balts, but I seriously doubt that the Estonians would be more violent than the Finns(who have an unique "Finnish" violent gene). It's also my personal observation that Estonians aren't violent, I also haven't noticed that the Finns would be violent. Both groups are just stoic, cold and reserved.

Finns are significantly more violent that Scandinavians. Estonians we don't know about, because Estonians don't know, it seems, about their own people.

[Äike]

Finns are significantly more violent that Scandinavians. Estonians we don't know about, because Estonians don't know, it seems, about their own people.

I have never been in a serious fight with another Estonian, but I have been attacked by Russians a couple of times. I am personally not violent at all, even when I am extremely drunk, nor have I noticed any Estonians being very violent when they're drunk.

But information should be gathered from larger scale statistics.

[Äike]

We are advising you to stop blame Russians for all the shit you´ve there in Estonia.

blaming? It's called stating the facts.

Karl: "Russians are solely responsible for the HIV epidemic in Estonia."

Ignorant person who doesn't a thing about Estonia: "Stop blaming the Russians!!! You're a chauvinistic xenophobe! What do you have against Slavs!?!"

Karl: *posts image (http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1117/russiansinestoniahiv.jpg) showing that Russians are responsible for the HIV epidemic in Estonia*

Ignorant person: "...You're still a chauvinistic xenophobe."


...

Is stating the facts, blaming? Sometimes I am so fed up with this crap. Some of the people on this forum view Russians like some kind of example for what we all should strive for. "If our countries fail, then we will all migrate to Russia, as it is the white paradise!" ...Idiots

[Simonsson]

Truth be told, more often than not local Russians are the root of quite a few problems and the greatest contributors to all sorts of different negative statistics and crimes. I daresay as we live here and actually see what's going on here, as opposed to making a bold assumption from a different country, we've a more in-depth understanding as to what goes on here. It's not uncommon upon glancing at an individual of the aforementioned ancestry/background either in a dark street or in public transport one immediately becomes suspicious courtesy of their mimics first and foremost, quite a few times you can genuinely think "am I going to get stabbed just now?", I've had that feeling when one's tried to mug me (but I didn't have anything of value, thankfully) and also when they try to plead you to give them either small change or cigarettes (the small change pleading is also related to a trick which theoretically should result in you pulling out your wallet to take them pennies out, and them snatching that wallet off you with all its contents).

[Agrippa]

Could some people try to answer the original question in a more serious manner, so far my original assumptions were rather verified, but I still don't get it the drastic degree of differences, since they are really among the top ranks for murder in the world it seems and that with at least less non-Europeans among them, which make up a huge portion of crimes in the West.

Is the social situation for Russians in the Baltic states so desperate?

What's their perspective?

[Äike]

Could some people try to answer the original question in a more serious manner, so far my original assumptions were rather verified, but I still don't get it the drastic degree of differences, since they are really among the top ranks for murder in the world it seems and that with at least less non-Europeans among them, which make up a huge portion of crimes in the West.

Is the social situation for Russians in the Baltic states so desperate?

What's their perspective?

I doubt that the situation of the Russians in Estonia should be worse than in Russia. Even our president, Toomas-Hendrik Ilves has said, "the best place in the world for a Russian to live is in Estonia." Because they have their own separate education system, schools, teachers etc. I doubt that any immigrant groups in the west have their own education system. Also, most Russians can have a normal life without speaking a word of Estonian in Estonia. I recently stumbled upon a Russian like that on Sunday. Long story short, I needed to have a dialogue with him, but the didn't speak a word of Russian and when I tried to continue speaking in Estonian, I was told to "fuck off" in Russian + other vulgar terms.

I think that one the factors in the current situation is that the Russian population was in a very preferred state during Soviet times. There was also a term in Russian(which I do not remember), but in English it sounds like this, "speak the language of the humans". That term was used when Estonians wanted to speak Estonian to a Russian. Although the term was used only by a minority of very chauvinistic Russians.

In the 21th century, the Russian population still has a preferred position in the society, but it isn't comparable to the situation during Soviet times.

My theory is that the Russian population is bound to act like this in any country where it is the main immigrant group. It is is coded in them with their ethnocultural heritage. I have also met Russians who have grew up in a completely Estonian environment and speak Estonian without even a slight accent, but they acted like stereotypical Russians and were very hotblooded, when compared to us, cold northerners.

To sum it up, the social situation in Estonia isn't to blame, as it is still gives Russians special privileges(but steps are taken to treat them like the Estonians, without any special treatment). The Russians themselves are to blame. Example: Russia is the biggest heroine consumer in the world. At the same time, Russians are an absolute majority among the drug abusers in Estonia, this goes hand-in-hand with the Russian population being solely responsible for the HIV epidemic. Russians are the same(or similar) in most of Europe. Considering the already natural Russian chauvinistic/imperialistic/nostalgic Soviet mentality, then being a sizable minority probably magnifies their stereotypical negative traits.

[The Ripper]

Seriously speaking, I would suppose that (based on Finland) it is about the behavioural patterns of a marginalized segment of society. Alcohol is a main culprit. And while the Russians of Estonia and Latvia are over represented in statistics, I think that the same segment, if smaller, exists also among Latvians and Estonians. It is interesting to look at other statistics from the area:

Suicides per 100,000 people per year

1. Belarus
2. Lithuania
5. Russia
...
11. Latvia
14. Finland
17. Estonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Self-inflicted_injuries_world_map_-_Death_-_WHO2004.svg

Alcohol consumption:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG

[Agrippa]

Seriously speaking, I would suppose that (based on Finland) it is about the behavioural patterns of a marginalized segment of society. Alcohol is a main culprit. And while the Russians of Estonia and Latvia are over represented in statistics, I think that the same segment, if smaller, exists also among Latvians and Estonians. It is interesting to look at other statistics from the area:

Suicides per 100,000 people per year

1. Belarus
2. Lithuania
5. Russia
...
11. Latvia
14. Finland
17. Estonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Self-inflicted_injuries_world_map_-_Death_-_WHO2004.svg

Alcohol consumption:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG

The idea of alcohol and other drugs being a trigger seems to be right, yet other countries with (usually considered) worse minority groups than Russians (like Gypsies) and more alcohol-drug consumption have still a lower homicide rate.

So probbably the drugs and prostitution - criminal ways of life so to say, are one important factor, alcohol, depression and anger another in a situation of perceived "discrimination", "lack of perspective" - and a culturally (?), natural (?) tendency towards solving conflicts with violence and rather stupid "macho-behaviour"? Ending up bloody if alcohol plays in?
But still I don't get it, going after that, many Russian settlements must be as dangerous as the violent hotspots of Latin America or the worst immigrant ghettos in all of Europe...

[The Ripper]

Well at least in Finland the acts [murders] are often random and if I recall it was something like 80% done under the influence of alcohol. Like I said, it is part of an marginalized "underworld". I don't find the idea that there is a certain genetic tendency towards alcoholism and violence at all impossible, in fact I expect it to be further strengthened as our knowledge of these things increases. I suppose there is a cultural factor as well, alcoholism has always been a curse for Finns, but its difficult for me to compare to other parts of the world.

[Äike]

But still I don't get it, going after that, many Russian settlements must be as dangerous as the violent hotspots of Latin America or the worst immigrant ghettos in all of Europe...

I have a friend who was an exchange student in Brazil and I doubt that the situation is like that here. She was driven to school and back to home every day, as walking was too dangerous.

But you do have a point, Russian immigrants are no better than the "worst immigrants" of Europe. That's why one of my opinions is that Germany and the UK are "paradises" from a demographic viewpoint, as the situations in those countries aren't even comparable to the massive immigrants population here and all the problems they cause.

The population of Estonia before WW2 and in the 21th century hasn't changed much. The only difference is that 1/3 of the native population was exterminated and replaced by foreign immigrants/colonists with a sole purpose to fully wipe out the Estonian ethnicity from the face of the earth. The Soviet Union might not exist anymore, but its policies are still successfully fulfilling their goal.

[Agrippa]

But you do have a point, Russian immigrants are no better than the "worst immigrants" of Europe. That's why one of my opinions is that Germany and the UK are "paradises" from a demographic viewpoint, as the situations in those countries aren't even comparable to the massive immigrants population here and all the problems they cause.


Well, at least those Russians are close enough to be kin and might integrate sooner or latter - or stick to their own ethnicity in a divided country.

Anyway, by mixing with Russians Estonians definitely don't lose their genetic identity and profile to the same degree as a French-Negroid mixture, that is for sure.

And in this case, I'm pretty sure, socio-cultural factors are decisive, which means after a phase of cultural change, things could settle down - the same can't be said in the West, with a population being changed so dramatically.

So in a way, individually your situation might be worse now, collectively less so...

[Äike]

Well, at least those Russians are close enough to be kin and might integrate sooner or latter - or stick to their own ethnicity in a divided country.

A foreign immigrant is a foreign immigrant, it doesn't matter if it is African or Russian.


Anyway, by mixing with Russians Estonians definitely don't lose their genetic identity and profile to the same degree as a French-Negroid mixture, that is for sure.

Estonian genetic identity and profile will be lost. Russians look quite visibly among us, Northern-Europeans.

In a way, Russians are more dangerous to the ethnic Estonian population because they aren't African/Negroid. They assimilate more easily.

What is worse from the viewpoint of preserving the unique(genetical/anthropological, however you call it) heritage of a certain population. The assimilation of 150 Russians or 1 African? The 150 Russians will change that unique heritage more than 1 African.


And in this case, I'm pretty sure, socio-cultural factors are decisive, which means after a phase of cultural change, things could settle down - the same can't be said in the West, with a population being changed so dramatically.

So in a way, individually your situation might be worse now, collectively less so...

The situation is so fucked up, that the Estonians are lucky if they aren't a mixed Finno-Slavic population by 2080.

[Agrippa]

A foreign immigrant is a foreign immigrant, it doesn't matter if it is African or Russian.

It does matter, because distance matters. Is a Finn a problem to you too?


Estonian genetic identity and profile will be lost. Russians look quite visibly among us, Northern-Europeans.

Well, I'm sure the differences are significant, but they aren't huge, nothing in comparison to what Westerners experiencing. From a racial standpoint I would be happy and excited being in your still save situation.


In a way, Russians are more dangerous to the ethnic Estonian population because they aren't African/Negroid. They assimilate more easily.

At least they can, now think about foreigners which are non-integrable but threaten to replace you as a people completely, that's what f.e. the English and French are facing in many regions if nothing else happens in the next hundred years...


What is worse from the viewpoint of preserving the unique(genetical/anthropological, however you call it) heritage of a certain population. The assimilation of 150 Russians or 1 African? The 150 Russians will change that unique heritage more than 1 African.

The 150 Russians won't introduce something new to your population, they will only cause a shift inside your spectrum.

The African on the other hand will cause a shift completely foreign to your spectrum.

Also, as if it would be about such numbers, fact is, Paris has more non-Europeans than Estonia and most Estonian cities Russians...


The situation is so fucked up, that the Estonians are lucky if they aren't a mixed Finno-Slavic population by 2080.

If the situation won't change, you will be something like a Finno-Slavic-Negro-Arab-South East Asian population in 2150 and being just slaves of the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

Well that's a threat!


Look at some EU-members like Spain, how much of a completely foreign and non-integrable immigration they got in some decades and the same might happen in Estonia. You think it is bad now? Expect worse!

Also, I can't tell you be glad with the Russians, as many of them pose a real threat and problem to Estonia right now, but never say any Western country is better off, that's like a bad joke! Probably if it is about wealth and social security, but not if it is about the future of our people!

I would change with you Estonians every day if it is about the foreigners, just a healthy authoritarian rule for the Russians, and we make good Germans out of them in 2 generations, something you won't be able to do with all the elements we receive from out of Europe and the Gypsies and Jews.

And you take those?
We have a problem with those foreigners anyway, because many states don't want their scum back!

You give us the Russians, we give you the non-Europeans. Deal after the revolution?
;)

[Radola]

It does matter, because distance matters. Is a Finn a problem to you too?



Well, I'm sure the differences are significant, but they aren't huge, nothing in comparison to what Westerners experiencing. From a racial standpoint I woulkd be happy and excited being in your still save situation.



At least they can, now think about foreigners which are non-integrable but threaten to replace you as a people completely, that's what f.e. the English and French are facing in many regions if nothing else happens in the next hundred years...



The 150 Russians won't introduce something new to your population, they will only cause a shift inside your spectrum.

The African on the other hand will cause a shift completely foreign to your spectrum.

Also, as if it would be about such numbers, fact is, Paris has more non-Europeans than Estonia and most Estonian cities Russians...



If the situation won't change, you will be something like Finno-Slavic-Negro-Arab-South East Asian population in 2150 and being just slaves of the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

Well that's a threat!


Look at some EU-members like Spain, how much of a real foreign and non-integrable immigration they got in some decades and the same might happen in Estonia. You think it is bad now? Expect worse!

Also, I can't tell you be glad with the Russians, as many of them pose a real threat and problem to Estonia right now, but never say any Western country is better off, that's like a bad joke! Probably if it is about wealth and social security, but not if it is about the future of our people!

I would change with you Estonians every day if it is about the foreigners, just a healthy authoritarian rule for the Russians, and we make good Germans out of them in 2 generations, something you won't be able to do with all the elements we receive from out of Europe and the Gypsies and Jews.

And you take those?
We have a problem with those foreigners anyway, because many states don't want their scum back!

You give us the Russians, we give you the non-Europeans. Deal after the revolution?
;)


Finally someone, who´s able to use his brain to think about the problem:clap2: .
We´ve got some gypsies over here and I bet that Karl would be surprised how kind Russians are.

[Matritensis]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG

I don't believe,not even for a milisecond,that the consumption per capita of alcohol is lower in Scandinavia and Finland than in Spain or Portugal.I suspect that,good Lutherans as they are up there,they are way too ashamed to confess the truth...:D

[Eldritch]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG

I don't believe,not even for a milisecond,that the consumption per capita of alcohol is lower in Scandinavia and Finland than in Spain or Portugal.I suspect that,good Lutherans as they are up there,they are way too ashamed to confess the truth...:D

The alcohol consumption in the former areas is less evenly distributed over time.

Finns get shitfaced once per week, Spaniards have a mild buzz going on all day, every day, by knocking back glasses of wine here and there. ;)

You also have to remember that the higher north you go, the more teetotalers you'll find.

[Matritensis]

Even so,I find it impossible to believe,sorry.I know well the alcohol protocol in both Spain and Finland,and my consumption here has increased twofold.No alcohol,no social life:it's that simple.I'm not criticizing(I get my share of it!:D),in my opinion it is just a fact.

[Matritensis]

Or maybe my perception could be due to the fact that in Spain public intoxication is very rare and frowned upon.Rowdy drunks get their asses kicked mercilessly and without hesitation,because it is not the alcohol's fault that you are drunk,it is your fault if you drink so much or so fast that you cannot control yourself in public.

[esaima]

The lack of a social system?

Yes, it may be one of the important reasons.Not the only reason, but one and quite an important one.For instance crime rate was even higher in early 1990ies then Estonia started it´s shock-therapy reforms in economics, social system was neglected and people had to manage themselves in that new situation.

[Eldritch]

Well this article is a couple of years old, but it contains some useful data:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/07/alcohol-drinking-countries-forbeslife-drink08-cx_vr_0807europe.html

[Heretik]

Well this article is a couple of years old, but it contains some useful data:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/07/alcohol-drinking-countries-forbeslife-drink08-cx_vr_0807europe.html

Croatia + Czech Republic + Hungary = Drunkards paradise. :hail: :D

[Matritensis]

Haha,now that I look at the map again,even Russia drinks less than Spain! That I believe much less still.Nah,that map is made up or they used really flawed data.

[Heretik]

Don't feel bad, you can hang out with us too. :D

[Simonsson]

That's a real cuntish signature you've got there.

[Imperivm]

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-10-058/EN/KS-SF-10-058-EN.PDF

Page 6

previous years:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/product_results/search_results?mo=containsall&ms=violent+crime&saa=&p_action=SUBMIT&l=us&co=equal&ci=,&po=equal&pi=,

[Radola]

In terms of per-capita alcohol consumption alone, the Czech Republic came in first.


I just love this part of the article:D...

[Heretik]

Croatia :love: Czech Republic :kiss: :D

[Radola]

Croatia :love: Czech Republic :kiss: :D

Yeah, our consumption of alchohol seems to be pretty alarming, thanks god!:D:D

[Heretik]

I am drinking enough for a smaller islamic country. :laugh:

[Radola]

I am drinking enough for a smaller islamic country. :laugh:

I guess those numbers clearly show why I was drunken even on Monday :rolleyes:

[Guapo]

I am drinking enough for a smaller islamic country. :laugh:

Kosovo?

[Heretik]

I guess those numbers clearly show why I was drunken even on Monday :rolleyes:

:hail: :hail: Singlehandedly improving the statistics. :laugh:


Kosovo?

BiH. :D

[Äike]

One example about the subhuman immigrants we have in Tallinn:

The media just published that two murder suspects have been caught by the police. A man(Russian of course) was murdered with a bat in Lasnamäe(the core Russian area in Tallinn), the suspects are 26-year old Aleksei and 25-year old Deniss.

As I said before, the high statistics are explained by the Mongol offspring stabbing each other in drunken rage, or just beating each other to death because of some kind of disputes.

http://www.tallinnapostimees.ee/?id=381678

[Peerkons]

We are just angry people.

MAD LATVIANS
http://diena.lv/upload/article/0077/762616/3361783_BIG_1294424614.jpg

[Heretik]

One example about the subhuman immigrants we have in Tallinn:

The media just published that two murder suspects have been caught by the police. A man(Russian of course) was murdered with a bat in Lasnamäe(the core Russian area in Tallinn), the suspects are 26-year old Aleksei and 25-year old Deniss.

As I said before, the high statistics are explained by the Mongol offspring stabbing each other in drunken rage, or just beating each other to death because of some kind of disputes.

http://www.tallinnapostimees.ee/?id=381678

You are a fucking imbecile.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

You give us the Russians, we give you the non-Europeans. Deal after the revolution?
;)

We don't want your idea of revolution.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

From a racial standpoint I would be happy and excited being in your still save situation.

Feel free to have your children turn Slavic anyday, Agrippa. Slavism is not our cup of tea.


now think about foreigners which are non-integrable but threaten to replace you as a people completely,
I think ... Hmmm . Russians come to mind. :lightbul:


The 150 Russians won't introduce something new to your population, they will only cause a shift inside your spectrum.

The African on the other hand will cause a shift completely foreign to your spectrum. Yeah, right. One Negroe is worse than 150 Russians with?


Finno-Slavic-Negro-Arab-South East Asian population in 2150 Isn't hat already the genetic composition of almost any given central European?


Also, I can't tell you be glad with the Russians, as many of them pose a real threat and problem to Estonia right now, but never say any Western country is better off, that's like a bad joke! Probably if it is about wealth and social security, but not if it is about the future of our people!Norway, Finland and Iceland are all better off.


I would change with you Estonians every day if it is about the foreigners, just a healthy authoritarian rule for the Russians, and we make good Germans out of them in 2 generations, something you won't be able to do with all the elements we receive from out of Europe and the Gypsies and Jews.
Yeah right. Let's see what happens if you get similar proportions; 50 million Russians and 50 years of Sovietunion.
Then you'd stop longing for them.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Or maybe my perception could be due to the fact that in Spain public intoxication is very rare and frowned upon.Rowdy drunks get their asses kicked mercilessly and without hesitation,because it is not the alcohol's fault that you are drunk,it is your fault if you drink so much or so fast that you cannot control yourself in public.

We could implement that here.

[Äike]

You are a fucking imbecile.

Nah, I just hate subhuman immigrants, who aren't capable of acting like Europeans, with passion.

[Talvi]

I recently read on the news that last year about 84 people were murdered.
The year before that it was 95.. Is that really that much???

http://www.postimees.ee/?id=381491

[Don Brick]

Alcohol consumption:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG

Looks like there´s a fantastic party going on in Uganda, in the heart of Africa. Europeans are still the alkies of the world though.

[Agrippa]

Looks like there´s a fantastic party going on in Uganda, in the heart of Africa. Europeans are still the alkies of the world though.

Did they include the illegal stuff? Guess not, because how to count it...

[Praamžius]

Huh....that's surprising i live in Vilnius my whole life and often go out at nights and was attacked only ~7 times in my entire life.That's definitely not Russians causing main problem.Problem is caused by a few reasons first being alcohol and the fact that most Lithuanians are very short-tempered , tough it may not looks so from outside another thing is drugs , junkies don't kill much , but they rob a lot.

Another thing that is contributing is pretty retarded , but back in 90's there ware plenty of big clashes between metalheads and chavs.At the time of a day it's p.safe ,but at night if you are not formal looking so to speak and you walk on some deserted alleyways there is 50% chances that you will be attacked for "fun".

And cause of all these troubles are waves of people from small towns and villages coming into Vilnius and ridiculously small jail sentences for homicide.But it's getting better most of those bastards immigrate to UK or Ireland.

For murderer most people spend only about 3-10 years in prison.

[Raikaswinþs]

the text of the link is in an unknown language

[Äike]

Huh....that's surprising i live in Vilnius my whole life and often go out at nights and was attacked only ~7 times in my entire life.That's definitely not Russians causing main problem.Problem is caused by a few reasons first being alcohol and the fact that most Lithuanians are very short-tempered , tough it may not looks so from outside another thing is drugs , junkies don't kill much , but they rob a lot.

Another thing that is contributing is pretty retarded , but back in 90's there ware plenty of big clashes between metalheads and chavs.At the time of a day it's p.safe ,but at night if you are not formal looking so to speak and you walk on some deserted alleyways there is 50% chances that you will be attacked for "fun".

And cause of all these troubles are waves of people from small towns and villages coming into Vilnius and ridiculously small jail sentences for homicide.But it's getting better most of those bastards immigrate to UK or Ireland.

For murderer most people spend only about 3-10 years in prison.

Your post shows pretty well that it is extremely dumb to look at this geopolitical "region" as something identical. These 3 countries are small, but the differences(cultural, historical, mentality, factors causing crime etc) between them can be huge.

[Talvi]

the text of the link is in an unknown language

You talking about the link I posted?
Its not an unknown language :P its pretty known to be Estonian.
I posted it to show that Im not taking the number from thin air.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Huh....that's surprising i live in Vilnius my whole life and often go out at nights and was attacked only ~7 times in my entire life.That's definitely not Russians causing main problem.Problem is caused by a few reasons first being alcohol and the fact that most Lithuanians are very short-tempered , tough it may not looks so from outside another thing is drugs , junkies don't kill much , but they rob a lot.

:eek:
You write only seven times? Maybe we have different standards but in a normal town of that size that's extremely much...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Your post shows pretty well that it is extremely dumb to look at this geopolitical "region" as something identical. These 3 countries are small, but the differences(cultural, historical, mentality, factors causing crime etc) between them can be huge.

That's true. Estonians resemble Finns, while Lithuanians resemble Poles. Poles and Finns are very different already.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

Nah, I just hate subhuman immigrants, who aren't capable of acting like Europeans, with passion.


http://s011.radikal.ru/i315/1102/07/4285b442b921.jpg

[Lurker]

I have a friend who was an exchange student in Brazil and I doubt that the situation is like that here. She was driven to school and back to home every day, as walking was too dangerous.



Which city did she go to? And did the school pay for her personal driver or did she pay it herself?

[Lurker]

:eek:
You write only seven times? Maybe we have different standards but in a normal town of that size that's extremely much...

That's the same number of times I was robbed in my life. And I used to walk alone at night (2:00 AM, 3:00 Am) when I was younger (not wise, but I was younger), not to mention I live in a big Brazilian metropolis. It's interesting (and sad) to know that some places in Europe are as bad as here.

[Falkata]

Or maybe my perception could be due to the fact that in Spain public intoxication is very rare and frowned upon.Rowdy drunks get their asses kicked mercilessly and without hesitation,because it is not the alcohol's fault that you are drunk,it is your fault if you drink so much or so fast that you cannot control yourself in public.

I think in general (my personal opinion based on my own experience) young spaniards drink as much or even more than northerns. However there´s a big difference with adult people over their 30´s. It´s very rare to see drunk people in their 50´s around here unless they´re social scum. But for example when i made a trip (viking line powah!) Stockholm-Helsinki there were manyy of them completely drunk sleeping in the stairs! Even the mother of my ex-irish flatmate got wasted with us when she came to Madrid to visit her! That would be totally unbelievable for a spanish mother

[Gamera]

Alcohol consumption:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG

Off topic, but I can't help to ask. What's up with Uganda and alcohol in Africa? :D

[Gamera]

:eek:
You write only seven times? Maybe we have different standards but in a normal town of that size that's extremely much...

Yeah, I think that's a lot even for the average Peruvian. :confused: Damn.

[Eldritch]

Off topic, but I can't help to ask. What's up with Uganda and alcohol in Africa? :D

Could be anything really. I have a feeling that the methods they use to compile statistics in Africa aren't the most reliable ones.

[Äike]

That's the same number of times I was robbed in my life. And I used to walk alone at night (2:00 AM, 3:00 Am) when I was younger (not wise, but I was younger), not to mention I live in a big Brazilian metropolis. It's interesting (and sad) to know that some places in Europe are as bad as here.

I do not know what places in Europe you are talking about, but Estonia isn't one of them.

Even Russia isn't so "fucked up" as Brazil, when we are talking about crime.

[Norbert]

That is interesting. Is it native Lithuanians who are committing the crimes, or are they immigrants or immigrant mafia-type organizations? I hear a lot of countries in northeastern Europe have problems with Turkish and Albanian mafias.

[Matuo]

Huh....that's surprising i live in Vilnius my whole life and often go out at nights and was attacked only ~7 times in my entire life.That's definitely not Russians causing main problem.Problem is caused by a few reasons first being alcohol and the fact that most Lithuanians are very short-tempered , tough it may not looks so from outside another thing is drugs , junkies don't kill much , but they rob a lot.

I have been attacked and robbed once in Riga, where I have lived almost all of my life, and where I often went out in nights.

Interesting comparision.

It looks like crime level in Lithuania is higher than in Latvia (even with all Russian immigrants included), at least if compare capitals.

I once met a Lithuanian, whose face's skin was visibly burned, yet recovered. He was from Kaunas. He told me that he was involved in crime, and some disagreements arose with other criminals. One night some criminals took him in the car, took to some empty field, and throw him down to land. He was poured over with oil and lighted with fire. So he was burning, he was running away and tried to extinguish fire. He was lucky to survive. Terrible story...


I have read in Latvian news about reprisal between Lithuanians, made in Latvia. For example, some man was found in forest dead, tied to tree with ropes, and burned down. Latvian police found out that the man was Lithuanian, and he was burned down very likely also by Lithuanians. The Lithuanians seemingly thought that they wouldn't be suspected, catched and get punishment, if they did terrible crime in neighbour country.

Well, Lithuanians have been doing also other crimes in Latvia, like robbed cars etc.

Latvians have short-tempered "brothers" indeed.

[Matuo]

That is interesting. Is it native Lithuanians who are committing the crimes, or are they immigrants or immigrant mafia-type organizations? I hear a lot of countries in northeastern Europe have problems with Turkish and Albanian mafias.
It's Lithuanians mostly, who make crimes in Lithuania. I have even myself met them, and they have told me that yes, they are criminals.

How did I meet them, you might wonder? I was once hitchhiking in Lithuania. And I was lifted up by some cars drivers, who didn't even hide from me, who they were - criminals. They told truth about their occupation. But they were nice to me, didn't do anything bad. I heard some interesting stories from them and had interesting conversations.

I have travelled with hitchiking across all Baltic countries. Well, I was really crazy then. Now I realise that. But nothing bad happened. Nobody touched me.

Ironically, I get most scared in Estonia from an Estonian car driver, not from Lithuanians, whatever criminals they might be. One Estonian car driver started to talk about "what's the point to live, I want to die", and asked me "do you want to die?". I was scared like shit, I thought he will with purpose go off road and hit a tree, causing an accident, where we would die. But luckily he didn't do so. Maybe because my answer was "no".

[Äike]

Ironically, I get most scared in Estonia from an Estonian car driver, not from Lithuanians, whatever criminals they might be. One Estonian car driver started to talk about "what's the point to live, I want to die", and asked me "do you want to die?". I was scared like shit, I thought he will with purpose go off road and hit a tree, causing an accident, where we would die. But luckily he didn't do so. Maybe because my answer was "no".

philosophical, suicidal Finnic people, you better avoid them. :D

Asking, "What's the point to live?" is actually philosophical in a way, it's the same as asking what's the purpose of life. But combined with "I want to die" it's also suicidal. Or he was just trying to play a joke on you and creep you out. Estonians can have quite "black humor".



But the impression I get from this thread is that the crime in Estonia is caused by Eastern-Europeans, Russians to be precise, while the crime in Lithuania is caused by Lithuanians who act like Eastern-Europeans(thus are Eastern-Europeans).

One more interesting fact, the Balts(especially Lithuanians) have a reputation of stealing cars from Estonia. As far as the majority of car thefts in Estonia are done by the Lithuanians and it's organized by Lithuanian mafia.

Lithuanians are indeed foreign people from an Estonian point of view, I have no idea how Latvians, their Baltic brethren, view them. Lithuanians are from one point of view, Central-Europeans, but from another point of view, Eastern-Europeans.

[Eldritch]

More worldwide alcohol stats. Recent study, but data from 2005.

http://kuvat.uusisuomi.fi/sites/default/files/imagecache/suurennettu/kuvat/Näyttökuva%202011-02-18%20kohteessa%2019.11.37.png

http://kuvat.uusisuomi.fi/sites/default/files/imagecache/suurennettu/kuvat/Näyttökuva%202011-02-18%20kohteessa%2019.14.04.png

WHO Global Status on Alcohol and Health (http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/msbgsruprofiles.pdf).

[Peerkons]

philosophical, suicidal Finnic people, you better avoid them. :D

Asking, "What's the point to live?" is actually philosophical in a way, it's the same as asking what's the purpose of life. But combined with "I want to die" it's also suicidal. Or he was just trying to play a joke on you and creep you out. Estonians can have quite "black humor".



But the impression I get from this thread is that the crime in Estonia is caused by Eastern-Europeans, Russians to be precise, while the crime in Lithuania is caused by Lithuanians who act like Eastern-Europeans(thus are Eastern-Europeans).

One more interesting fact, the Balts(especially Lithuanians) have a reputation of stealing cars from Estonia. As far as the majority of car thefts in Estonia are done by the Lithuanians and it's organized by Lithuanian mafia.

Lithuanians are indeed foreign people from an Estonian point of view, I have no idea how Latvians, their Baltic brethren, view them. Lithuanians are from one point of view, Central-Europeans, but from another point of view, Eastern-Europeans.

Lithuanians have low culture of behavior.
Many view them as "assholes".

[Lurker]

I do not know what places in Europe you are talking about, but Estonia isn't one of them.

Even Russia isn't so "fucked up" as Brazil, when we are talking about crime.

I was talking about Vilnius, Lithuania, due to the testimony of the user Praamžius.

[Heretik]

Yeah, Vilnius is as just as dangerous as Rio or Sao Paolo. :laugh:

[Falkata]

So now the bad guys are the lithuanians. Until a lithuanian member appeared saying that the criminals in Vilnius are the ukranians and we can continue with this snowball :D

[Guapo]

Yeah, Vilnius is as just as dangerous as Rio or Sao Paolo. :laugh:

Or Stallinn

[Lurker]

Yeah, Vilnius is as just as dangerous as Rio or Sao Paolo. :laugh:

Well, not as dangerous as Rio or Sao Paulo, cities that have two or three times the population of Lithuania itself and immigrant problems that dwarf anything in Europe, but it does seem to have the same crime rates as Sorocaba, for example, a city of comparable size (Sorocaba has 600,000 people living there and a murder rate of 8/100,000).

[Falkata]

Well, not as dangerous as Rio or Sao Paulo, cities that have two or three times the population of Lithuania itself and immigrant problems that dwarf anything in Europe, but it does seem to have the same crime rates as Sorocaba, for example, a city of comparable size (Sorocaba has 600,000 people living there and a murder rate of 8/100,000).

Rio de Janeiro had a murder rate of 46,4/100,000 in 2006.

[Don]

More worldwide alcohol stats. Recent study, but data from 2005.

http://kuvat.uusisuomi.fi/sites/default/files/imagecache/suurennettu/kuvat/Näyttökuva%202011-02-18%20kohteessa%2019.11.37.png

http://kuvat.uusisuomi.fi/sites/default/files/imagecache/suurennettu/kuvat/Näyttökuva%202011-02-18%20kohteessa%2019.14.04.png

WHO Global Status on Alcohol and Health (http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/msbgsruprofiles.pdf).


Mhhh very interseting maps, in particular the relation between both.

Some conclusions:

- The sudaca inmigrants, as you know, various millions came to Spain in the last 10 years, are related usually with beer. It is normal to see them with beers in the hands in the streets and behaving disturbingly.
But they drink much less than native spaniards. They have the same beer in the hand for hours. Only two or three are required to turn them idiots (more than normal). The same to moors and negros and asians and others.Transaminases, genetic, racial involvement.

- The behaviour of drinking. We call it Buen Beber/Mal beber. It is interesting the second map for that. The less risky patterns are europeans, in particular western, southern and central. I dare to say that the most "healthy" ones are the culturas del vino (wine cultures), I mean Spain, France and Italy mainly. It is a different way to drink related to the previous racial or genetic component that allow them (us) and interacts with these to keep a equilibrated and intelligent drinking behaviour related to social events and ancient traditions. So, a cultural trait.

[Eldritch]

Mhhh very interseting maps, in particular the relation between both.

Some conclusions:

- The sudaca inmigrants, as you know, various millions came to Spain in the last 10 years, are related usually with beer. It is normal to see them with beers in the hands in the streets and behaving disturbingly.
But they drink much less than native spaniards. They have the same beer in the hand for hours. Only two or three are required to turn them idiots (more than normal). The same to moors and negros and asians and others.Transaminases, genetic, racial involvement.

I have a feeling that these people use even slight, minor inebriation as an excuse to behave like idiots.


- The behaviour of drinking. We call it Buen Beber/Mal beber. It is interesting the second map for that. The less risky patterns are europeans, in particular western, southern and central. I dare to say that the most "healthy" ones are the culturas del vino (wine cultures), I mean Spain, France and Italy mainly. It is a different way to drink related to the previous racial or genetic component that allow them (us) and interacts with these to keep a equilibrated and intelligent drinking behaviour related to social events and ancient traditions. So, a cultural trait.

I think the preferred drink itself (wine vs. beer or vodka) is incidental. Many northern countries had their drinking cultures destroyed by prohibition laws in the early 20th Century. I know this certainly happened in mine, and to this day there remains all too much of the mal beber, as you aptly out it, a form of drinking that has intoxication itself as the goal, here.

[Albion]

The only other countries reporting more than two cases a year per hundred thousand population were Finland, Bulgaria, Scotland, Romania, the Czech Republic and Ireland,' Eurostat reported.

Scotland?, Ireland??? Finland??

[Don]

I have a feeling that these people use even slight, minor inebriation as an excuse to behave like idiots.



I think the preferred drink itself (wine vs. beer or vodka) is incidental. Many northern countries had their drinking cultures destroyed by prohibition laws in the early 20th Century. I know this certainly happened in mine, and to this day there remains all too much of the mal beber, as you aptly out it, a form of drinking that has intoxication itself as the goal, here.

We do it here when we are teenagers, I mean drink to get drunk and all the traits derived from it, in some kind of competition, but after the 20s (depends on the person maturity), our relation with alcohol is much more selective and controlled. "Más señoritos."
We enjoy the environment and situation where we drink (birra y tapas, o vinitos) than the result of drinking.

[Lenny]

Lithuania saw an average 8.76 murders per 100,000
Estonia recorded 6.6 murders per 100,000
Some perspective:

Murders Per 100,000 Population
<1.0: Austria, Slovenia and Germany
6.6 : Estonia [via Russian-speakers]
8.8 : Lithuania

5.4 : USA , 2008
21.2 : USA-Blacks

USA By State
0.5 : North Dakota
1.0 : New Hampshire
1.4 : Utah
1.9 : Wyoming
1.9 : Hawaii
2.4 : Maine
...
5.4 : USA
...
20.4 : Puerto Rico
31.4 : District of Columbia, 2008
80.6 : District of Columbia in 1991 (rising to well over 100 for DC-Blacks)


"Ironically", the smallest amount of [Estonia's] crime is in Saaremaa and Hiiumaa. Hiiumaa is by percentage the most Estonian part of Estonia, Saaremaa comes second.
I know we will also all be shocked to see that the USA's list of lowest murder-states is nearly identical to a "whitest states" list. (Except Hawaii which is mostly Oriental.)

[Data is for 2008, and from the FBI.
1. For USA (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_03.html) where killer's race is known
2. Overall murder rates by state (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_05.html),
3. Washington DC historical (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/dccrime.htm) rates].

[sarinana]

Lithuania has relatively few Russians, though.

True. But we also have relatively high number of poles.

I remember in a neighborhood where I grew up there were several playgrounds where kids used to play. One of them was mainly used by russian and polish kids who would aggressively chase the lithuanian kids away if you stepped there unless there was some adult to discipline them. Generally we lithuanian children wouldn't even go close to that playground to not get into trouble and only hoped they wouldn't come to use the other playground which was just next to my house. But of course them russian kids thought they owned everything without any respect to anyone. The war that lasted till my family moved to a new place begun. Dont wanna go into details but that's when I first realized how aggressive are the russians.

Second time I had to deal with the russians was when I was 16 and got my first job as a leaflet distributor. Once I had to distribute the leaflets in this town 20mins away on the train from Vilnius. As soon as me and my friend stepped out of the train we realized something was very wrong with that place. Alcohol bottles everywhere. Several drunken tramp faces... We went to a local shop to buy some water just to be spoken in russian by the cash girl and then realized that everyone else around us speaks in russian. That was not a problem as we could understand bits and pieces of russian it was just slightly weird.
Anyway as soon as we got deeper into the area to distribute leaflets what we saw was shocking. Dirty children running everywhere, from as young as 2 years old without any adults looking after them. The only adults we've seen were enjoying alcohol rather than looking after the kids. They all looked liked tramps.
Later we got chased by some gang of 6 to 10 years old. Another 8 year old dude asked us for some cash and fags. And some teenage prick tried to scare drive on us. Indeed visiting that place was one of the scariest experiences of my life and we couldn't wait to leave.
When I got back home Ive tried to research the area and found out that 97% of the population there are russians and decided to never step in there again.

[Dandelion]

Still pales in comparison with the New World. I actually dare going to Vilnius feeling perfectly safe. I cannot say this for Ciudad Juárez or even downtown Detroit.

[RussiaPrussia]

The answer is Russians. :P

funny this is homicede rate is in the baltics the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_rate

Lithuania 6.6 5% russian

Estonia 5.2 30% Russian

Latvia 3.1 30% Russian, also more freedom for russians like voting unlike in estonia.

Belarus 4.9 10% Russian and completely russified country

So basically its obvious Lithuania has the least russians and the highest homicide rate among the former european post soviet states after russia. There is no connection between russian youre just another racist. Its simple the connection to soviet culture or better said what replaced it after the collapse.

[RussiaPrussia]

blaming? It's called stating the facts.

Karl: "Russians are solely responsible for the HIV epidemic in Estonia."

Ignorant person who doesn't a thing about Estonia: "Stop blaming the Russians!!! You're a chauvinistic xenophobe! What do you have against Slavs!?!"

Karl: *posts image (http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1117/russiansinestoniahiv.jpg) showing that Russians are responsible for the HIV epidemic in Estonia*

Ignorant person: "...You're still a chauvinistic xenophobe."


...

Is stating the facts, blaming? Sometimes I am so fed up with this crap. Some of the people on this forum view Russians like some kind of example for what we all should strive for. "If our countries fail, then we will all migrate to Russia, as it is the white paradise!" ...Idiots

then explain how latvia has less homicide rate despite having the exact same situation?? In fact russians have more rights in latvia than in estonia yet the homicide rate is much much smaller than estonia. Just shows what disgusting place estonia is to live in where the people are so divided and dont trust each other. Estonia is truly a failed state.

[Tanel]

Just shows what disgusting place estonia is to live in where the people are so divided and dont trust each other. Estonia is truly a failed state.
Oh the agony, the shame. We are a failure. :cry2
If only there'd be a country to save us from this heartbreaking situation. Someone big, kind and well off. Someone who wants to take all the little nations under her protective arm and tuck them into their coffin... I mean blanket. Perhaps, if we plead enough, Russia will embrace us back to her arms, just like she did back in 1940. She could maybe turn our failure into a success story. I mean why couldn't she, she has done such a wonderful job for herself.
---Irony off. :tongue

[The Ripper]

Oh the agony, the shame. We are a failure. :cry2
If only there'd be a country to save us from this heartbreaking situation. Someone big, kind and well off. Someone who wants to take all the little nations under her protective arm and tuck them into their coffin... I mean blanket. Perhaps, if we plead enough, Russia will embrace us back to her arms, just like she did back in 1940. She could maybe turn our failure into a success story. I mean why couldn't she, she has done such a wonderful job for herself.
---Ironi off. :tongue

Its too late, you've been too mean! Russia doesn't even want you anymore. You're too failed to be part of the Russian success story.

[RussiaPrussia]

I mean why couldn't she, she has done such a wonderful job for herself.
---Irony off. :tongue
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD/countries/EE-RU?display=graph

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD/countries/DE-RU-PL-NL-EE?display=graph


russia is a success story

[Petersburg]

Poor Baltic countries :cry2

[Pure ja]

funny this is homicede rate is in the baltics the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_rate

Lithuania 6.6 5% russian

Estonia 5.2 30% Russian

Latvia 3.1 30% Russian, also more freedom for russians like voting unlike in estonia.


Actually, Estonia's voting laws are more laxed than that in Latvia.
And on the other side, there are proportionately less russians in Estonia than in Latvia.



Belarus 4.9 10% Russian and completely russified country

So basically its obvious Lithuania has the least russians and the highest homicide rate among the former european post soviet states after russia. There is no connection between russian youre just another racist. Its simple the connection to soviet culture or better said what replaced it after the collapse.

I have a different theory.
Both Russia and Lithuania (and Poland) think of their past as glorious continental empires. And they somewhat act like it still matters to them to continue to represent their (former) glory with their behavior. Estonians and latvians don't.

And as to the difference between Estonia and Latvia, who knows.
Maybe the Latvian criminal underworld has a more structured leadership, thus less infighting. Or maybe the Latvian criminal underworld has legalized themselves better and become legit (bankers and politicians).
If Latvia has sustained lower homicide rate for a longer time, then it is worth investigating.

[Pure ja]

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD/countries/EE-RU?display=graph

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD/countries/DE-RU-PL-NL-EE?display=graph

russia is a success story

Not quite.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS/countries/DE-RU-PL-NL-EE?display=graph

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BG.GSR.NFSV.GD.ZS/countries/DE-RU-PL-NL-EE?display=graph

[Pure ja]

Or Stallinn

Is that some sort of an inside joke :confused:
You could drop one of the n-s at the end, Stallin would be almost as Stalin.

Btw, we can bring back -s- in other ways as well :)
One of the old names of Tallinn was Lindanise = Lidnanase

[lI]

And as to the difference between Estonia and Latvia, who knows.
Maybe the Latvian criminal underworld has a more structured leadership, thus less infighting.
Maybe that's also true for the difference in Lithuania. Just a thought.
I checked the stats and in Lithuania the most likely victims of homicides are precisely the young men involved in organized crimes rather than innocent civilians. Reports about gang fights do often make the news.

Estonia & Latvia culturally & economically are very centralized countries while Lithuania isn't AT ALL. Maybe that's also true for the criminal element?

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, maps of population density:

In Latvia everything revolves around Riga
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5216/5457015575_6ff53ed5d1_b.jpg

In Estonia, it's Tallinn
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Estonia_population_density.png

No such single centre in LT
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Population_density_in_municipalities_of_Lithuania_ (blank).png

[bella1407]

ahhaah Typical Balts.

[Qemist]

I think in general (my personal opinion based on my own experience) young spaniards drink as much or even more than northerns. However there´s a big difference with adult people over their 30´s. It´s very rare to see drunk people in their 50´s around here unless they´re social scum. But for example when i made a trip (viking line powah!) Stockholm-Helsinki there were manyy of them completely drunk sleeping in the stairs! Even the mother of my ex-irish flatmate got wasted with us when she came to Madrid to visit her! That would be totally unbelievable for a spanish mother

That may be true but a confounding factor is context. It is common for people who a straitlaced at home to "let their hair down" when they are holidaying in another country. It is also possible that some of the people sleeping on the ferry were just tired.


Seriously speaking, I would suppose that (based on Finland) it is about the behavioural patterns of a marginalized segment of society. Alcohol is a main culprit. And while the Russians of Estonia and Latvia are over represented in statistics, I think that the same segment, if smaller, exists also among Latvians and Estonians. It is interesting to look at other statistics from the area:

Suicides per 100,000 people per year

1. Belarus
2. Lithuania
5. Russia
...
11. Latvia
14. Finland
17. Estonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Self-inflicted_injuries_world_map_-_Death_-_WHO2004.svg

Alcohol consumption:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG

Nice maps. Both are correlated with wealth, so it may not be so simple as you assume.

[Minde]

ahhaah Typical Balts.

Russian homocide is even higher... Typical Ruskies :)

[inactive_member]

Nice maps. Both are correlated with wealth, so it may not be so simple as you assume.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Except that it's inaccurate as per source quoted .

Suicide rate per 100K

1. Greenland
2. South Korea
3. Lithuania
4. Guyana
5. Kazakhstan
6. Belarus
7. China
8. Slovenia
9. Hungary
10. Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

As you can see the suicide rate is not related to socio-economic stability in the country. It is clearly does not correlate with wealth as there are many poor countries around the world. One would expect Japan being on the other side of the table if there was any correlation.

In some countries young people value their life less in difficult times. Psychologists may have a better answer to explain why some societies value life less than other.

[Kelta]

1. Heavy alcohol abuse/alcoholism drives high number of suicides and murders.
2. About half Russians now after WW2 --the genocide once waged against the Lith. Catholics there.
3. High unemployment probably leading to inflated crime waves.
4. Cold, dark and long brutal winter months.
5. Viking blood --LOL

[Mans not hot]

:picard2:

[inactive_member]

:picard2:

Exactly.

[Not a Cop]

I will not disagree with statement about russians being more criminal on average, but i also had to mention, that russians mostly live in highly urbanaised areas, in wich crime rate is basicly higher than in rural, there lives mostly native population.

[Äike]

Recent news from the Estonian media:

1. A Russian married couple was staying in a summerhouse, their friend came to visit. The friend tried to rape the woman, the man tried to stop him thus the rapist killed the man and then raped the woman. 1 day later he returned to the summerhouse and raped the woman again. http://www.postimees.ee/1176888/morvar-ja-vagistaja-moisteti-14-aastaks-vangi/


2. An Estonian girl (15 years old) with a bad social background met a Russian boy on the internet, who lived in another part of Estonia. She went to meet him during spring school break. The Russian boy and his older sister, beat her, shaved her head and then decapitated her with a knife. http://www.virumaateataja.ee/1180556/tamsalu-sundmused-paadisid-voika-hukkamisega

These aren't the most usual news, the average news story is like this: "Dmitri stabbed Vladimir and Igor while drinking with them in Kopli (Russian ghetto), Tallinn. Vladimir and Igor died. This is the most typical type of murder in Estonia, Russians killing Russians while drinking alcohol.

One thing is certain, Russians are in no way part of Europe, be it culturally or by mentality. For American posters: the Russian immigrants in Estonia are practically the same as the black population in the US. One American Apricity member who has visited Estonia (he wrote about it) once made an in depth post about this parallel.

Everything I posted is correct and I won't bother to reply to anyone who disagrees.

[Mans not hot]

Those evil Russians need to be taught a lesson.

[Minde]

These aren't the most usual news, the average news story is like this: "Dmitri stabbed Vladimir and Igor while drinking with them in Kopli (Russian ghetto), Tallinn. Vladimir and Igor died. This is the most typical type of murder in Estonia, Russians killing Russians while drinking alcohol.

My slow friend if you don't like them, Ruskie killing another one means its one less. Which is good isn't it?

[tiger]

My slow friend if you don't like them, Ruskie killing another one means its one less. Which is good isn't it?

and another one goes to prison. Which is even better :)

[Ants]

These aren't the most usual news, the average news story is like this: "Dmitri stabbed Vladimir and Igor while drinking with them in Kopli (Russian ghetto), Tallinn. Vladimir and Igor died. This is the most typical type of murder in Estonia, Russians killing Russians while drinking alcohol.

Today's news: 34 year-old Aleksei shot 20 year-old Deniss and 19 year-old Anton. While Anton survived, Deniss died in the hospital.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=et&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=et&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postimees.ee%2F1210324%2Fnarvas-toimus-tulistamine-uks-hukkus-kaks-said-viga&act=url

[Mary]

The explanation is that Balts are Mongs and Mongs tend to flip out from time to time.

[Mans not hot]

lol