DNA map of Ireland reveals the Irish have Viking and Norman ancestry and are far more genetically

[wvwvw]

DNA map of Ireland reveals the Irish have Viking and Norman ancestry and are far more genetically diverse than previously thought

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/25/17/489392AD00000578-5312697-image-a-26_1516900143250.jpg

Researchers at Trinity College Dublin have constructed a DNA map revealing the lasting genetic contributions from British, Scandinavian and French invasions. The findings are significant because they could be used in future studies to identify the genetics underlying various traits and diseases in specific regions. The figure on the right shows a DNA cluster map of Britain and Ireland.

The researchers started with rich genetic data for about 1,000 Irish and 2,000 British individuals, and subdivided it into groups. They found 50 distinct genetic clusters (classified into broader groups) in Ireland and Britain as shown by the key on the left. Each group contains a majority of individuals from a particular region. Each cross on the plotted graph at the bottom represents an individual whose genes were sequenced for the study, and they are colour coded according to which cluster they belong to.

They are positioned based on where in the UK they are from, with the grey lines showing latitude (PC1) and longitude (PC4). The map top right shows how the groups are split around Britain and Ireland. Pictured left is an artistic rendering of Vikings on a ship. The Vikings left their genetic footprint in Ireland when they invaded the island, launching their first attack in 795 AD by raiding an island monastery.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/26/10/4899160800000578-5312697-image-a-9_1516961455229.jpg
Researchers have found 50 distinct genetic clusters (classified into broader groups) in Ireland and Britain as shown by the key, shown top left. They are separated by colour based on region.

For instance the SEE cluster, labelled in red and in South East England, represents a genetic group with largely Anglo Saxon Ancestry.

Groups with largely Celtic ancestry include NLU (shown in yellow) NSC (green) and NWA (pink).

Top right: A map shows how the groups are split around Britain and Ireland. Bottom: Each cross on the plotted graph represents an individual whose genes were sequenced for the study, and they are colour coded according to which cluster they belong to. They are positioned based on where in the UK they are from, with the grey lines showing latitude (PC1) and longitude (PC4)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5312697/DNA-map-Britain-Ireland-reveals-Viking-genes.html#ixzz55M8lCub6

[Sikeliot]

Interesting that southern Scotland is more like Ireland, while northern Scotland is more like England. I would have expected the reverse to be true.

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting that southern Scotland is more like Ireland, while northern Scotland is more like England. I would have expected the reverse to be true.

That area comprises the largest amount of the Scottish population. Also alot the western part was the area of Dal Riata. Another factor is a lot of people from that area moved to Ulster with the Plantations in the 16/17th century and a lot of Irish immigrated in the 18th and 19th century to Scotland.

Also the Scottish sampling from the PoBI wasn't great and the IDA is particularly interested in the Hebrides.


The PoBI dataset’s restricted Scottish coverage, which is largely northern Aberdeenshire and the south of Scotland, means we can only describe Scotland with regards to those regions. It would be interesting, therefore, to expand the Scottish sample further to investigate genetic links between Ireland and the rest of Scotland, particularly the Hebrides.

http://www.maverfamily.com/data/uploads/images/history_pages/600ad_scotland_kingdoms.png

[JQP4545]

It is interesting to see how Northern Ireland has remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. It looks like the the British settlers mostly replaced the native Irish population in Northern Ireland.

[Peterski]

It is interesting to see how Northern Ireland has remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. It looks like the the British settlers mostly replaced the native Irish population in Northern Ireland.

Not really, the emergence of a new cluster doesn't require replacement, just some admixture and then intermarriages between Ulster Protestants (and lack of gene flow from Catholics):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229979-British-DNA-Anglo-Saxon-rule-facilitated-long-distance-mixing-(vs-endogamy-of-Celtic-kingdoms)

If for generations Protestants intermarried with Protestants & Catholics with Catholics, they diverged into distinct clusters, even if they have similar origins or % proportions of ancestries.

[Óttar]

My Irish I1 is from Vikings.

[Dick]

My Irish I1 is from Vikings.

or anglo-saxons

[Óttar]

or anglo-saxons

Some of the sub-markers were from English people too, yes.

[Dick]

Some of the sub-markers were from English people too, yes.

you did ftdna?

[Óttar]

you did ftdna?

I did my Y-DNA through Oxford ancestors. I looked up some of what I assume were sub-clades.

[Grace O'Malley]

It is interesting to see how Northern Ireland has remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. It looks like the the British settlers mostly replaced the native Irish population in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland hasn't remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. The most distinctive Irish region is actually South Munster. This is from the study.

To explore this, we estimated the extent of admixture per individual in the Irish dataset from Britain, using samples from the PoBI dataset as a reference [7], along with eighteen ancient British individuals from the Iron Age, Roman and Anglo-Saxon periods in northeast and southeast England [16,17]. Using an unsupervised ADMIXTURE analysis [18], we observed that one of the ADMIXTURE clusters (k=2) comprises the totality of ancestry of several Anglo-Saxon individuals and forms the largest proportion in British groups, with varying representation across Irish clusters (S8 Fig). For simplicity we will call this the British component, which was among the lowest for individuals falling in Irish west coast fineSTRUCTURE clusters, including the south Munster and Cork cluster groups (Fig 1D), supporting the interpretation that these regions differ in terms of restricted haplotypic contribution from Britain. Analysis of variance of the British admixture component in cluster groups showed a significant difference (p < 2×10-16), indicating a role for British Anglo-Saxon admixture in distinguishing clusters, and ChromoPainter PC2 was correlated with the British component (p < 2×10-16), explaining approximately 43% of the variance. PC2 therefore captures an east to west Anglo-Celtic cline in Irish ancestry. This may explain the relative eastern homogeneity observed in Ireland, which could be a result of the greater English influence in Leinster and the Pale during the period of British rule in Ireland following the Norman invasion, or simply geographic proximity of the Irish east coast to Britain. Notably, the Ulster cluster group harboured an exceptionally large proportion of the British component (Fig 1D and 1E), undoubtedly reflecting the strong influence of the Ulster Plantations in the 17th century and its residual effect on the ethnically British population that has remained.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d7/7f/9a/d77f9abf12d34dc2b936c637772470c6.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

Northern Ireland hasn't remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. The most distinctive Irish region is actually South Munster. This is from the study.

To explore this, we estimated the extent of admixture per individual in the Irish dataset from Britain, using samples from the PoBI dataset as a reference [7], along with eighteen ancient British individuals from the Iron Age, Roman and Anglo-Saxon periods in northeast and southeast England [16,17]. Using an unsupervised ADMIXTURE analysis [18], we observed that one of the ADMIXTURE clusters (k=2) comprises the totality of ancestry of several Anglo-Saxon individuals and forms the largest proportion in British groups, with varying representation across Irish clusters (S8 Fig). For simplicity we will call this the British component, which was among the lowest for individuals falling in Irish west coast fineSTRUCTURE clusters, including the south Munster and Cork cluster groups (Fig 1D), supporting the interpretation that these regions differ in terms of restricted haplotypic contribution from Britain. Analysis of variance of the British admixture component in cluster groups showed a significant difference (p < 2×10-16), indicating a role for British Anglo-Saxon admixture in distinguishing clusters, and ChromoPainter PC2 was correlated with the British component (p < 2×10-16), explaining approximately 43% of the variance. PC2 therefore captures an east to west Anglo-Celtic cline in Irish ancestry. This may explain the relative eastern homogeneity observed in Ireland, which could be a result of the greater English influence in Leinster and the Pale during the period of British rule in Ireland following the Norman invasion, or simply geographic proximity of the Irish east coast to Britain. Notably, the Ulster cluster group harboured an exceptionally large proportion of the British component (Fig 1D and 1E), undoubtedly reflecting the strong influence of the Ulster Plantations in the 17th century and its residual effect on the ethnically British population that has remained.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d7/7f/9a/d77f9abf12d34dc2b936c637772470c6.jpg

Actually I think these are the 7 Gaelic cluster groups.

I'll see if I can find more info later but here is the admixture graph from the other study which was the Irish DNA Atlas. Three Northern Irish groups are more similar to Britain.

https://d8v5jhqx5tv4l.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/european-ancestry-british-isles.jpg

[Graham]

Scots and Norn Irish are very similar, but that isnt a surprise. :)
Rangers FC fans and Orange marchers would love that graph, good thing is most dont know what a computer is. Dexterity with a flute not a keyboard.

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/27591242_10156132381115421_1592570963_n.png?oh=95d 2c38425fcfa99ed114e86357142d3&oe=5A740A3C

[Sikeliot]

Northern Ireland hasn't remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. The most distinctive Irish region is actually South Munster. This is from the study.

To explore this, we estimated the extent of admixture per individual in the Irish dataset from Britain, using samples from the PoBI dataset as a reference [7], along with eighteen ancient British individuals from the Iron Age, Roman and Anglo-Saxon periods in northeast and southeast England [16,17]. Using an unsupervised ADMIXTURE analysis [18], we observed that one of the ADMIXTURE clusters (k=2) comprises the totality of ancestry of several Anglo-Saxon individuals and forms the largest proportion in British groups, with varying representation across Irish clusters (S8 Fig). For simplicity we will call this the British component, which was among the lowest for individuals falling in Irish west coast fineSTRUCTURE clusters, including the south Munster and Cork cluster groups (Fig 1D), supporting the interpretation that these regions differ in terms of restricted haplotypic contribution from Britain. Analysis of variance of the British admixture component in cluster groups showed a significant difference (p < 2×10-16), indicating a role for British Anglo-Saxon admixture in distinguishing clusters, and ChromoPainter PC2 was correlated with the British component (p < 2×10-16), explaining approximately 43% of the variance. PC2 therefore captures an east to west Anglo-Celtic cline in Irish ancestry. This may explain the relative eastern homogeneity observed in Ireland, which could be a result of the greater English influence in Leinster and the Pale during the period of British rule in Ireland following the Norman invasion, or simply geographic proximity of the Irish east coast to Britain. Notably, the Ulster cluster group harboured an exceptionally large proportion of the British component (Fig 1D and 1E), undoubtedly reflecting the strong influence of the Ulster Plantations in the 17th century and its residual effect on the ethnically British population that has remained.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d7/7f/9a/d77f9abf12d34dc2b936c637772470c6.jpg


It seems like Wexford, Dublin, Leinster, and North Munster areas are where most of the English and secondhand AngloSaxon type ancestry is concentrated, based on their position on that plot and in the other ones I have seen. I still believe these results to show Connacht is not particularly distinct genetically unlike South Munster/Cork and Ulster natives.

[celticdragongod]

It is interesting to see how Northern Ireland has remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. It looks like the the British settlers mostly replaced the native Irish population in Northern Ireland.

Not really. There are many native Irish Catholics still living in the north of Ireland. Though the British colonists certainly tried to exterminate the native Irish population.

[Peterski]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/ni_protestants_1991.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Ireland_protestants_1861-1991.gif

[celticdragongod]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/ni_protestants_1991.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Ireland_protestants_1861-1991.gif

The gap between the proportion of Protestants and Catholics in the north of Ireland has narrowed, according to the most recent census figures. The percentage of Catholics in the population was up to 45% while Protestant representation has fallen to 48% from the 2001 census. The figures were detailed in the 2011 census, the results of which were published by the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency. In the 2001 census, 53% of the population was Protestant with 44% Catholic.

[TEUTORIGOS]

DNA map of Ireland reveals the Irish have Viking and Norman ancestry and are far more genetically diverse than previously thought

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/25/17/489392AD00000578-5312697-image-a-26_1516900143250.jpg

Researchers at Trinity College Dublin have constructed a DNA map revealing the lasting genetic contributions from British, Scandinavian and French invasions. The findings are significant because they could be used in future studies to identify the genetics underlying various traits and diseases in specific regions. The figure on the right shows a DNA cluster map of Britain and Ireland.

The researchers started with rich genetic data for about 1,000 Irish and 2,000 British individuals, and subdivided it into groups. They found 50 distinct genetic clusters (classified into broader groups) in Ireland and Britain as shown by the key on the left. Each group contains a majority of individuals from a particular region. Each cross on the plotted graph at the bottom represents an individual whose genes were sequenced for the study, and they are colour coded according to which cluster they belong to.

They are positioned based on where in the UK they are from, with the grey lines showing latitude (PC1) and longitude (PC4). The map top right shows how the groups are split around Britain and Ireland. Pictured left is an artistic rendering of Vikings on a ship. The Vikings left their genetic footprint in Ireland when they invaded the island, launching their first attack in 795 AD by raiding an island monastery.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/26/10/4899160800000578-5312697-image-a-9_1516961455229.jpg
Researchers have found 50 distinct genetic clusters (classified into broader groups) in Ireland and Britain as shown by the key, shown top left. They are separated by colour based on region.

For instance the SEE cluster, labelled in red and in South East England, represents a genetic group with largely Anglo Saxon Ancestry.

Groups with largely Celtic ancestry include NLU (shown in yellow) NSC (green) and NWA (pink).

Top right: A map shows how the groups are split around Britain and Ireland. Bottom: Each cross on the plotted graph represents an individual whose genes were sequenced for the study, and they are colour coded according to which cluster they belong to. They are positioned based on where in the UK they are from, with the grey lines showing latitude (PC1) and longitude (PC4)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5312697/DNA-map-Britain-Ireland-reveals-Viking-genes.html#ixzz55M8lCub6

Crappy article because it has a limited amount of math in it.

[TEUTORIGOS]

Northern Ireland hasn't remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. The most distinctive Irish region is actually South Munster. This is from the study.

To explore this, we estimated the extent of admixture per individual in the Irish dataset from Britain, using samples from the PoBI dataset as a reference [7], along with eighteen ancient British individuals from the Iron Age, Roman and Anglo-Saxon periods in northeast and southeast England [16,17]. Using an unsupervised ADMIXTURE analysis [18], we observed that one of the ADMIXTURE clusters (k=2) comprises the totality of ancestry of several Anglo-Saxon individuals and forms the largest proportion in British groups, with varying representation across Irish clusters (S8 Fig). For simplicity we will call this the British component, which was among the lowest for individuals falling in Irish west coast fineSTRUCTURE clusters, including the south Munster and Cork cluster groups (Fig 1D), supporting the interpretation that these regions differ in terms of restricted haplotypic contribution from Britain. Analysis of variance of the British admixture component in cluster groups showed a significant difference (p < 2×10-16), indicating a role for British Anglo-Saxon admixture in distinguishing clusters, and ChromoPainter PC2 was correlated with the British component (p < 2×10-16), explaining approximately 43% of the variance. PC2 therefore captures an east to west Anglo-Celtic cline in Irish ancestry. This may explain the relative eastern homogeneity observed in Ireland, which could be a result of the greater English influence in Leinster and the Pale during the period of British rule in Ireland following the Norman invasion, or simply geographic proximity of the Irish east coast to Britain. Notably, the Ulster cluster group harboured an exceptionally large proportion of the British component (Fig 1D and 1E), undoubtedly reflecting the strong influence of the Ulster Plantations in the 17th century and its residual effect on the ethnically British population that has remained.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d7/7f/9a/d77f9abf12d34dc2b936c637772470c6.jpg

Yeah, so what is the average British/Anglo-Saxon admixture for Ulster ? Mine is around 40% which is higher than both Scots and Northern Irish last time I checked .

[celticdragongod]

Yeah, so what is the average British/Anglo-Saxon admixture for Ulster ? Mine is around 40% which is higher than both Scots and Northern Irish last time I checked .

How do you know this? What test gave you this result?

[TEUTORIGOS]

How do you know this? What test gave you this result?

AncestryDNA said I was 37% Anglo-Saxon and MyHeritage said 40% which is pretty much the same result so it is probably not a coincidence since both are based on science. That is not even counting my viking admixture.

However, AncestryDNA says my genetic community is Ulster but fails to tell me what part of Ulster.

[celticdragongod]

AncestryDNA said I was 37% Anglo-Saxon and MyHeritage said 40% which is pretty much the same result so it is probably not a coincidence since both are based on science. That is not even counting my viking admixture.

However, AncestryDNA says my genetic community is Ulster but fails to tell me what part of Ulster.

If you are 37%-40% Anglo-Saxon then your background is probably Protestant/British colonist.

[Septentrion]

DNA map of Ireland reveals the Irish have Viking and Norman ancestry and are far more genetically diverse than previously thought

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/25/17/489392AD00000578-5312697-image-a-26_1516900143250.jpg

Researchers at Trinity College Dublin have constructed a DNA map revealing the lasting genetic contributions from British, Scandinavian and French invasions. The findings are significant because they could be used in future studies to identify the genetics underlying various traits and diseases in specific regions. The figure on the right shows a DNA cluster map of Britain and Ireland.

The researchers started with rich genetic data for about 1,000 Irish and 2,000 British individuals, and subdivided it into groups. They found 50 distinct genetic clusters (classified into broader groups) in Ireland and Britain as shown by the key on the left. Each group contains a majority of individuals from a particular region. Each cross on the plotted graph at the bottom represents an individual whose genes were sequenced for the study, and they are colour coded according to which cluster they belong to.

They are positioned based on where in the UK they are from, with the grey lines showing latitude (PC1) and longitude (PC4). The map top right shows how the groups are split around Britain and Ireland. Pictured left is an artistic rendering of Vikings on a ship. The Vikings left their genetic footprint in Ireland when they invaded the island, launching their first attack in 795 AD by raiding an island monastery.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/26/10/4899160800000578-5312697-image-a-9_1516961455229.jpg
Researchers have found 50 distinct genetic clusters (classified into broader groups) in Ireland and Britain as shown by the key, shown top left. They are separated by colour based on region.

For instance the SEE cluster, labelled in red and in South East England, represents a genetic group with largely Anglo Saxon Ancestry.

Groups with largely Celtic ancestry include NLU (shown in yellow) NSC (green) and NWA (pink).

Top right: A map shows how the groups are split around Britain and Ireland. Bottom: Each cross on the plotted graph represents an individual whose genes were sequenced for the study, and they are colour coded according to which cluster they belong to. They are positioned based on where in the UK they are from, with the grey lines showing latitude (PC1) and longitude (PC4)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5312697/DNA-map-Britain-Ireland-reveals-Viking-genes.html#ixzz55M8lCub6

Good job! Now it is time for those who were tagging Irish people as a mere bunch of Iberians to hush. Now we know the Irish as expected as a mainly a mixture of Celtic people with Norse admixture!!!!

[Coastal Elite]

Northern Ireland hasn't remained genetically segregated from the rest of Ireland. The most distinctive Irish region is actually South Munster.

This makes sense. According to Ancestry DNA, my Irish half is almost entirely from Cork. Maybe the South Munster population didn't intermingle much outside the region. I've seen this pattern as well with the DNA results of others with Munster heritage.

[Grace O'Malley]

This makes sense. According to Ancestry DNA, my Irish half is almost entirely from Cork. Maybe the South Munster population didn't intermingle much outside the region. I've seen this pattern as well with the DNA results of others with Munster heritage.

It's all very finescale anyway. South Munster still got settlement from English, Normans and Vikings.


Cork has it beginnings in monastic settlement, founded by St Finbar in the sixth century.[7] However the ancestor of the modern city was founded between 915 and 922,[8] when Viking settlers established a trading community.[9] The Viking leader Ottir Iarla is particularly associated with raiding and conquests in the province of Munster. The Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib connects this with the earliest Viking settlement of Cork.[10] The Norse phase of Cork's history left a legacy of family names, such as Cotter and Coppinger, peculiar to Cork which are claimed to have Norse origins.[11] In the twelfth century, this settlement was taken over by invading Anglo-Norman settlers. The Norsemen of Cork fought against the Norman incomers, mounting an expedition of 32 ships against them in 1173, which was defeated in a naval battle.[12] Cork's city charter was granted by Prince John in 1185.[13] Over the centuries, much of the city was rebuilt, time and again, after numerous fires. The city was at one time fully walled, and several sections and gates remain. The title of Mayor of Cork was established by royal charter in 1318, and the title was changed to Lord Mayor in 1900.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cork


South Munster (SMN) and Cork (CRK) clusters branch off first in the fineSTRUCTURE tree and show distinct separation from their neighbouring north Munster clusters (NMN), indicating that south Munster’s haplotypic makeup is more distinct from its neighbouring regions and the remaining regions than any other cluster. TVD analysis supports this observation (S1 Table and S3 Table), with the Cork cluster in particular showing strong differentiation from other clusters. This may reflect the persistent isolating effects of the mountain ranges surrounding the south Munster counties of Cork and Kerry, restricting gene flow with the rest of Ireland and preserving older structure.

[Coastal Elite]

It's all very finescale anyway. South Munster still got settlement from English, Normans and Vikings.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cork

South Munster (SMN) and Cork (CRK) clusters branch off first in the fineSTRUCTURE tree and show distinct separation from their neighbouring north Munster clusters (NMN), indicating that south Munster’s haplotypic makeup is more distinct from its neighbouring regions and the remaining regions than any other cluster. TVD analysis supports this observation (S1 Table and S3 Table), with the Cork cluster in particular showing strong differentiation from other clusters. This may reflect the persistent isolating effects of the mountain ranges surrounding the south Munster counties of Cork and Kerry, restricting gene flow with the rest of Ireland and preserving older structure

Yes, it's a pretty minor difference from the rest of Ireland. I think its really nothing more than a population being somewhat isolated because of a mountain range, bogs, or other topography.

Vikings played a big role in expanding Cork by adding a trading port. They also had relations with the local population. It's hard to escape those Vikings! Also, that photo of Kennedy greeting the crowd in Cork on the wiki link you sent is great.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes, it's a pretty minor difference from the rest of Ireland. I think its really nothing more than a population being somewhat isolated because of a mountain range, bogs, or other topography.

Vikings played a big role in expanding Cork by adding a trading port. They also had relations with the local population. It's hard to escape those Vikings! Also, that photo of Kennedy greeting the crowd in Cork on the wiki link you sent is great.

Yes the Vikings aspect is only something that I've looked at in recent years. The more I look into the topic the more I understand that those Vikings went everywhere in Ireland. Kennedy is very revered in Ireland. When I was a child I remember many of the people had pictures of Kennedy in their homes.

I love this photo of JFK having a cuppa in his ancestral home.

https://www.irishcentral.com/uploads/assets/resized_John_F_Kenndy_Kennedy_1947_Ireland.jpg

[Coastal Elite]

Yes the Vikings aspect is only something that I've looked at in recent years. The more I look into the topic the more I understand that those Vikings went everywhere in Ireland. Kennedy is very revered in Ireland. When I was a child I remember many of the people had pictures of Kennedy in their homes.

I love this photo of JFK having a cuppa in his ancestral home.

]https://www.irishcentral.com/uploads/assets/resized_John_F_Kenndy_Kennedy_1947_Ireland.jpg

Love that pic. His presidency meant a lot to Irish Catholic Americans like my mom's family because he was the first non-Protestant president of the US. He was also one of the last presidents that was beloved by a large portion of the American population.

[Grace O'Malley]

Love that pic. His presidency meant a lot to Irish Catholic Americans like my mom's family because he was the first non-Protestant president of the US. He was also one of the last presidents that was beloved by a large portion of the American population.

Yes he looks so relaxed. He definitely is one of the most interesting US Presidents in history. There will always be conspiracy theories about his death. It was only Oswald a lone crackpot that is to blame IMO.

[Dacul]

The study is very nice but the researchers have not taken into account the Picts.
The Picts should have been the ancient population of Ireland and Scotland before NW Kelts came there.

[Grace O'Malley]

The study is very nice but the researchers have not taken into account the Picts, which should have been the ancient population of Ireland and Scotland before NW Kelts came there.

Picts were just the same as the people that became Gaels. They even have L21 ydna. All those people are descended from Bell Beakers.

[Dacul]

Actually highland Scotts are looking quite distinct even in Britain.
If you take the Dutch people and the Highland Scotts, Highland Scotts are looking very different.
The Bell Beakers seems to have been the NW ProtoCelts being in about 2600 BC on Britain lands and so on.
Hallstat Celts appeared in 1200 BC.
However there is the R1B-S530 at 10% of the Scottish males which is supposed to be from the Picts.

[Grace O'Malley]

Actually highland Scotts are looking quite distinct even in Britain.
If you take the Dutch people and the Highland Scotts, Highland Scotts are looking very different.
The Bell Beakers seems to have been the NW Kelts, because in the same time existed the Hallstat Celts which were in current Austria lands and around there.

I don't think Highland Scots look distinct. When they had the Irish component in the People of the British Isles the Highlands ended up with over 63% Irish. They eventually removed the Irish because it was masking admixture in the British. Hallstatt Celts aren't particularly close to Irish anyway which is not surprising.

Here's a couple of shinty team from the Highlands.

https://www.obantimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/64/2018/05/NO-F21-Aitchison-Cup-01-1024x539.jpg

http://www.newtonmoreshinty.com/dwt/img/04.JPG

[Dacul]

There are more articles that are showing about R1B-S530 which is supposed to be Picts paternal line.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/genetic-ancestry/guff_documents/Picts.pdf

[Artek]

According to the YFull.com, S530 (L1335) is just 1850 years old with CI interval at 2400 - 1350 years (https://yfull.com/tree/R-L1335/). Knowing that YFull rather lowers TMRCA by 10-15% , S530 is about 2000 years old.

It is more or less as recent as supposedly Nialls' of the Nine branch of M222.

Was it Pictish? Maybe but there were many other branches too, I guess.

[Grace O'Malley]

I find this interesting. I've read this in numerous sources so I'm assuming it is historically correct.


The Vikings who first attacked Ireland were Norwegian while those in Britain were usually Danish.

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/pre_norman_history/vikings.html

[Token]

After discussing this paper with some knowledgeable guys and looking at it more carefully, i'm convinced that the Norse admixture is inflated in this study.

[Grace O'Malley]

After discussing this paper with some knowledgeable guys and looking at it more carefully, i'm convinced that the Norse admixture is inflated in this study.

Could you elaborate on what he said? Also would that mean that all the admixture breakdown is incorrect for both Ireland and Britain because the same method was used for all the clusters.

[Albannach]

The study is very nice but the researchers have not taken into account the Picts.
The Picts should have been the ancient population of Ireland and Scotland before NW Kelts came there.

Most Historians think that going by placenames and personal names it is likely that the Picts were Brythonic Celts similar to the Welsh.

Personally I think they were Brythonic Celts but with significant Irish influence in their language with possibly a non-IE element, it's interesting that if they were soley P-Celtic speaking people then why did they use the Gaelic term Mac instead of the Brythonic Map/ap.

One of the Pictish Kingdoms was called Ath-fhotla which means New Ireland.

Also the Chief of the Caledonian Picts was called Calgacus which comes from the gaelic name Calgach.

Many Pictish placenames seem to have a Brythonic prefix followed by Gaelic.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is the admixture graphs from the Irish DNA Atlas. It was the same method used in other dna studies including the People of the British Isles study and the Spanish study.

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-018-24846-6/MediaObjects/41598_2018_24846_Fig1_HTML.jpg

[Skjaldemjøden]

Some calculators place my Jutlandic grandfather in Orkney.

[Token]

Could you elaborate on what he said? Also would that mean that all the admixture breakdown is incorrect for both Ireland and Britain because the same method was used for all the clusters.

There are several problems with this study:

1. They use random, modern and admixed populations as proxies of supposedly ancient admixture.

2. They model Irish, a Northwestern European population, as partly French and Spanish and you might know what the algorithm does in such a situation: it tries to compensate the southern shift with a more northern shift, and this is why such high Scandinavian percentages pops out of nowhere. In a similar way i can model Spaniards as half Norwegian and half Sardinian, but that doesn't necessarily reflects a admixture event between these two populations.

The only way to quantify Norse admixture would be getting Norse samples, pre Norse Irish samples, and post Norse Irish samples, and look for excess rare allele sharing with the Norse Viking in post Norse Irish to the exclusion of pre Norse samples, like Reich's Anglo-Saxon paper did.

[Grace O'Malley]

There are several problems with this study:

1. They use random, modern and admixed populations as proxies of supposedly ancient admixture.

2. They model Irish, a Northwestern European population, as partly French and Spanish and you might know what the algorithm does in such a situation: it tries to compensate the southern shift with a more northern shift, and this is why such high Scandinavian percentages pops out of nowhere. In a similar way i can model Spaniards as half Norwegian and half Sardinian, but that doesn't necessarily reflects a admixture event between these two populations.

The only way to quantify Norse admixture would be getting Norse samples, pre Norse Irish samples, and post Norse Irish samples, and look for excess rare allele sharing with the Norse Viking in post Norse Irish to the exclusion of pre Norse samples, like Reich's Anglo-Saxon paper did.

That sounds reasonable to me.

The problem then would also be the same for all the clusters and also the People of the British Isles study. Basically this would be a problem for all the recent dna studies because they are all using the same methods.

I do agree with you though about the ancient genomes. I'm sure they will do this once they have the genetic breakdown of these samples. They already should have this data so I'm sure that will be looked at in the future.

If you look at the Irish sample on in the G25 and use any French sample there the Irish come out a lot higher Norwegian than this study though. The French sample in this study was majority Breton and they are not very southern shifted.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ni2nw4.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/ipwbvp.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/e6d6s9.jpg

Any study like this would have the same issues with using modern populations. There is a study being done by Copenhagen University with Viking samples and they are looking at populations where Vikings went to see if they can find out if they left genetic traces and also to see if the Vikings then are similar to present day Scandinavians.

[Token]

That sounds reasonable to me.
The problem then would also be the same for all the clusters and also the People of the British Isles study. Basically this would be a problem for all the recent dna studies because they are all using the same methods.
Only the Irish DNA Atlas and the recent Iberian paper uses modern references to try to quantify ancient admixture, and both of them have the same problems. In the Iberian paper, they model Spaniards with Southwestern French, Northwestern Africans, Italians and Irish, which makes zero sense to me and is obviously going to produce skewed results, and it did. At best we can conclude that some Irish regions were more affected by Norse incursion, shown by higher affinity with Norwegians in comparison to other regions.


If you look at the Irish sample on in the G25 and use any French sample there the Irish come out a lot higher Norwegian than this study though. The French sample in this study was majority Breton and they are not very southern shifted.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ni2nw4.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/ipwbvp.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/e6d6s9.jpg
That shows you how the algorithm can be misleading. The G25 French average lands in the Central French cluster, and to get to modern-day Irish you'd need a lot of additional Northern European admixture. Using Britanny, the algorithm needs less Northern European because Bretons are already quite northern shifted in comparison to most Frenchmen. Without context, admixture is useless.

[Grace O'Malley]

Only the Irish DNA Atlas and the recent Iberian paper uses modern references to try to quantify ancient admixture, and both of them have the same problems. In the Iberian paper, they model Spaniards with Southwestern French, Northwestern Africans and Irish, which makes zero sense to me and is obviously going to produce skewed results, and it did. At best we can conclude that some Irish regions were more affected by Norse incursions shown by higher affinity with Norwegians in comparison to other regions.


That shows you how the algorithm can be misleading. The G25 French average lands in the Central French cluster, and to get to modern-day Irish you'd need a lot of additional Northern European admixture. Using Britanny, the algorithm needs less Northern European because Bretons are already quite northern shifted in comparison to most Frenchmen. Without context, admixture is useless.

It wasn't just the IDA and the Spanish paper that used modern samples. The same was done with the People of the British Isles and also a Danish study done about 2 to 3 years ago. I'm sure there are others as well as I don't keep up with every genetic study. All the studies that use admixture are done with modern populations. So this means all these studies are using flawed mythology in regards to admixture. I wonder what the reasoning is with these geneticists using these methods? Surely they are aware of the issue? Also how do they work out when these admixtures occur? Are all the methods flawed?

It is obviously very difficult then to ascertain admixture in any population.

I do understand where you are coming from with this.

[Davystayn]

This study is really interesting in how regional it is tying with historical events. I always thought the Irish must have a good amount of norse dna so 20% isn't surprising.

I am English, Irish/Welsh parent wise and on trueancestry I got 96% match with Norwegian viking and 96% match with gaelic settler Iceland.

[Davystayn]

Scots and Norn Irish are very similar, but that isnt a surprise. :)
Rangers FC fans and Orange marchers would love that graph, good thing is most dont know what a computer is. Dexterity with a flute not a keyboard.

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/27591242_10156132381115421_1592570963_n.png?oh=95d 2c38425fcfa99ed114e86357142d3&oe=5A740A3C

Yes they would, they would say they knew it all along!

It would be interesting to compare Glasgow based rangers and celtic fans and compare with the nationalist & unionist communities in Northern lreland.