Are Sicilians closer genetically to Lebanese or North Italians?

[MercifulServant]

Which group are they closer to genetically speaking, discuss

[Myanthropologies]

Genetically equidistant from both on avarage, though there are some outliers (some being closer to North Italians, others closer to Levantines). Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into a flame war.

[MercifulServant]

Genetically equidistant from both. Hopefully this thread doesn't turn into a flame war.

I'm not trying to start a fight here it just seems that they are in between these two groups genetically

[Sp_loa]

Actually, they are in the middle.
It is very common to see a Sicilian moduled as 50% Lebanese Christian + 50% Tuscan on Gedmatch.

[MercifulServant]

Actually, they are in the middle.
It is very common to see a Sicilian moduled as 50% Lebanese Christian + 50% Tuscan on Gedmatch.

Tuscans plot south of other north Italians I'm pretty sure so are you saying that sicilians are closer to Lebanese then north Italians?

[Myanthropologies]

I'm not trying to start a fight here it just seems that they are in between these two groups genetically

That's is understandable. I am not accusing you specifically of instigating a flame war, but other threads of this nature have always turned into one. It is a very controversial topic here.

[Sp_loa]

Tuscans plot south of north Italians so are you saying that they are closer to Lebanese then north Italians?

The thing is this module isn't a 0.0 distance and Sicilians are a group made of different individuals. Some will be closer to Lebanese some will be closer to North Italians.
As a group- you can see them fairly in the middle.

[MercifulServant]

The thing is this module isn't a 0.0 distance and Sicilians are a group made of different individuals. Some will be closer to Lebanese some will be closer to North Italians.
As a group- you can see them fairly in the middle.

If you had to choose which group they are closer to even by an inch which group would they be closer too

[Sp_loa]

If you had to choose which group they are closer to even by an inch which group would they be closer too

North Italians.

[Myanthropologies]

The thing is this module isn't a 0.0 distance and Sicilians are a group made of different individuals. Some will be closer to Lebanese some will be closer to North Italians.
As a group- you can see them fairly in the middle.

I believe the Eastern part (Catania, Syracuse, and Ragusa) of Sicily has less Middle Eastern influence than the rest

[Myanthropologies]

If you had to choose which group they are closer to even by an inch which group would they be closer too

Neither.

[Cristiano viejo]

North Italians clearly

https://evolutionistx.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/genetic_map_of_europe.png?w=700&h=560

[Kelmendasi]

Slightly closer to North Italians on PCA, although they are pretty close to both groups.

[Token]

It varies, but generally equidistant from both.

[Myanthropologies]

Slightly closer to North Italians on PCA, although they are pretty close to both groups.

They are actually pretty different from both groups.

[Kelmendasi]

They are actually pretty different from both groups.
I meant in terms of PCA distances

[Sp_loa]

North Italians clearly

https://evolutionistx.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/genetic_map_of_europe.png?w=700&h=560

I wonder why Sardinians are so off than other types of Europeans.....
The Sardinians I saw look completely like other Europeans, some even blonde and many with blue eyes.

[Myanthropologies]

I meant in terms of PCA distances

Yeah, they have a decent distant from both on them.

[Myanthropologies]

I wonder why Sardinians are so off than other types of Europeans.....
The Sardinians I saw look completely like other Europeans, some even blonde and many with blue eyes.

It has nothing to do with Sardinians not being European, they are just almost purely one of the ancient groups of Europeans (European Farmers). They are still closer to Europeans than to anyone else.

[Token]

I wonder why Sardinians are so off than other types of Europeans.....
The Sardinians I saw look completely like other Europeans, some even blonde and many with blue eyes.

It is mostly because they lack (significant) steppe admixture.

[Cristiano viejo]

I wonder why Sardinians are so off than other types of Europeans.....
The Sardinians I saw look completely like other Europeans, some even blonde and many with blue eyes.

It is because they are purely of Neolithic stock.

[MysteriousWays]

Not really like either and about equidistant from both. Probably a smidge closer to N. Italians.

[Myanthropologies]

It is mostly because they lack (significant) steppe admixture.

Yes. Other Europeans are a mix of Steepe + Farmers + Hunter Gatherers, and Sardinians are almost purely descended from European farmers. They are also an island population, and island populations tend to be isolated genetically.

[Kelmendasi]

Yeah, they have a decent distant from both on them.
Cuz, I worded it wrong. Was supposed to say that the distance between N Italians and Sicilians with the distance between Sicilians and Lebanese is similar

[Myanthropologies]

Cuz, I worded it wrong. Was supposed to say that the distance between N Italians and Sicilians with the distance between Sicilians and Lebanese is similar

Ahhhh, I gotchu bro.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians are equidistant between the two groups, with some closer to North Italian and others to Lebanese. If I had to pick, probably slightly closer to North Italians who, believe it or not, plot south of Iberians.

Now if the question was if Sicilians are closer to Iberia or to Lebanon, the vast majority are closer to Lebanese than to Iberians.

[Percivalle]

North Italians who, believe it or not, plot south of Iberians

In a world weighted PCA Iberians can be more western/north-western but not more northern than North Italians.

https://i.imgur.com/fntaOcc.jpg

[chyyris]

North Italians

[kleenex]

I believe the Eastern part (Catania, Syracuse, and Ragusa) of Sicily has less Middle Eastern influence than the rest

Yes you're right.

[Sikeliot]

I believe the Eastern part (Catania, Syracuse, and Ragusa) of Sicily has less Middle Eastern influence than the rest

The way I think of Sicily is this-- there should really be a Venn diagram to describe this because it is difficult otherwise.

1) Enna, Syracuse, Ragusa, and the southern inland part of Catania have slightly higher Balto-Slavic ancestry and lower affinity to the Near East than the rest of the island. Think of these people as somewhere between regular Sicilians, and Peloponnesian Greeks from whom they descend. There was also a much smaller historical impact from Near Eastern and North African populations, as well as what is likely a higher retention of pre-Greek Italic ancestry.

2) The northern part of Catania, Messina (especially the north coast and inland towns), Palermo (especially the rural towns), and the inland center of Caltanissetta have elevated West and Southwest Asian ancestry, which shifts them toward the Levant, Mizrahi Jews, North African Jews significantly. These regions have VERY LOW Steppe ancestry, and are not typically the Sicilian reference populations on PCA plots or in studies.

3) The rest of the south coast -- coastal Caltanissetta, Agrigento, and southern Trapani -- has elevated affinity toward North Africa compared to the rest. There is also a small area on the northern coast, the area between the city of Palermo and the town of Castellammare in Trapani, where North African is also elevated.

4) The rest of Trapani is also significantly differentiated, and reflects repopulation from the Italian mainland. North African is higher, Caucasian is lower than the rest of Sicily at the same time.

[Tooting Carmen]

LOL the anthrotardism is off the charts here! Both myanthropologies and Sikeliot think that most Europeans look largely identical from Lulea to Marseille, yet at the same time think that a Mediterranean island can be easily divided by region and phenotype.

[Sikeliot]

LOL the anthrotardism is off the charts here! Both myanthropologies and Sikeliot think that most Europeans look largely identical from Lulea to Marseille, yet at the same time think that a Mediterranean island can be easily divided by region and phenotype.

Where did you see me mention anything about phenotype in that comment? That was entirely about genetic clusters.

[Tooting Carmen]

Where did you see me mention anything about phenotype in that comment? That was entirely about genetic clusters.

Well that too. When it comes to both genetics AND phenotype, you minimise the differences between all sorts of European groups, yet subdivide Sicily and South Italy into minute categories.

[kleenex]

Well that too. When it comes to both genetics AND phenotype, you minimise the differences between all sorts of European groups, yet subdivide Sicily and South Italy into minute categories.

@ Sikeliot: You're excellent (and pretty thorough) at breaking down the genetic differences between Sicilians, Mainland Greeks, Greek Islanders, etc. but when it comes to general Euro phenotypes I think you're far less critical and evaluative.

[Sikeliot]

@ Sikeliot: You're excellent (and pretty thorough) at breaking down the genetic differences between Sicilians, Mainland Greeks, Greek Islanders, etc. but when it comes to general Euro phenotypes I think you're far less critical and evaluative.

I don't know much about Europe outside of the part of it I have chosen to study in depth, this is why.

[Tooting Carmen]

I don't know much about Europe outside of the part of it I have chosen to study in depth, this is why.

But it is surely basic common sense and knowledge that the difference between Sweden and England is rather greater than the difference between Catania and Palermo. You even still think that even the Southern French look closer to Anglos and Germanics than to far Southern Europeans, no matter how many photos I've shown you to convince you otherwise.

[Leto]

Sicilians are equidistant between the two groups, with some closer to North Italian and others to Lebanese. If I had to pick, probably slightly closer to North Italians who, believe it or not, plot south of Iberians.

Now if the question was if Sicilians are closer to Iberia or to Lebanon, the vast majority are closer to Lebanese than to Iberians.
Have you seen these results?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225660-American-of-Lebanese-Italian-and-Germanic-origin-GEDmatch&highlight=Portuguese
There are also numbers of her parents and relatives, some could be half Lebanese, half European.

[Cristiano viejo]

Sicilians are equidistant between the two groups, with some closer to North Italian and others to Lebanese. If I had to pick, probably slightly closer to North Italians who, believe it or not, plot south of Iberians.
What is there to believe? North Italians are South Europeans too, that you have said it as if they were Scandinavians or something :rolleyes:


Now if the question was if Sicilians are closer to Iberia or to Lebanon, the vast majority are closer to Lebanese than to Iberians.Not sure about this.

[Joliemome]

LOL the anthrotardism is off the charts here! Both myanthropologies and Sikeliot think that most Europeans look largely identical from Lulea to Marseille, yet at the same time think that a Mediterranean island can be easily divided by region and phenotype.


But it is surely basic common sense and knowledge that the difference between Sweden and England is rather greater than the difference between Catania and Palermo.

The real truth.

[Tauromachos]

Well that too. When it comes to both genetics AND phenotype, you minimise the differences between all sorts of European groups, yet subdivide Sicily and South Italy into minute categories.

He mercilessly subdivides Greece and Italy and minimizes the differences for all the rest of Europe