R1a-CTS1211 (M558) in Bronze Age Lithuania & Latvia

[Peterski]

R1a-CTS1211 is ca. 37% to 38,5% of all Polish R1a, and R1a is ca. half of all Polish Y-DNA.

Five ancient samples of CTS1211 have just been published, and they are from Baltic states:

Lithuania, Spiginas2, 2130-1750 BC, Baltic_EBA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211+

Lithuania, Spiginas25, 800–545 BC, Baltic_BA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211+

Latvia, Kivutkalns222, 805–515 BC, Baltic_BA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467+

Latvia, Kivutkalns19, 730-400 BC, Baltic_LBA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467+

Latvia, Kivutkalns209, 405-230 BC, Baltic_IA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467+

Could ancestors of ca. 1/5 of Polish men originate from Bronze Age Latvia and Lithuania?

[Peterski]

Two different estimates of percentages of R1a subgroups in Poland (CTS1211 is over 1/3 of Polish R1a):

1. My estimate (I calculated it from FTDNA Projects):

R1a-M459 - 100,00% (sample size 1208), including:

---- M459* - 0,17% (2)
---- M198 - 99,83% (1206)
-------- M198* - 0,17% (2)
-------- L664 - 0,33% (4)

-------- Z645 - 99,34% (1200)
------------ Z93 - 2,73% (33)
------------ Z283 - 96,61% (1167)
---------------- Z283* - 0,91% (11)
---------------- Z284 - 0,41% (5)

---------------- M458 - 46,03% (556), including:
-------------------- L260 - 24,83% (300)
-------------------- CTS11962 - 20,45% (247)
-------------------- other M458 - 0,75% (9)

---------------- Z280 - 49,25% (595), including:
-------------------- CTS1211 - 38,49% (465)
------------------------ CTS3402 - 30,05% (363)
------------------------ other CTS1211 - 8,44% (102)
-------------------- Z92 - 9,85% (119)
-------------------- other Z280 - 0,91% (11)

2. Estimates of Peter Gwozdz from his website:

(but this includes Polish Jews with R1a-Y2619)

http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

R1a-M459 - 100,00% of Polish R1a, including:

Z93 - 5,25%
--- Y2619 - 3,03% - typical for Ashkenazi Jews CTS6>Y2619 - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6/
--- other Z93 - 2,22%

M458 - 46,87% of Polish R1a, including:
---- L260 - 29,70%
-------- YP254 - 19,60%
------------ Y4135 - 3,43%
------------ YP414 - 8,48%
---------------- YP610 - 5,66%
---------------- YP589 - 2,83%
------------ Y2905 - 7,07%
---------------- YP1364 - 3,43%
---------------- other Y2905 - 3,64%
------------ other YP254 - 0,62%
-------- YP654 - 4,85%
-------- other L260 - 5,25%
---- CTS11962 - 16,57%
-------- L1029 - 12,53%
------------ YP593 - 3,84%
------------ YP444 - 2,42%
------------ other L1029 - 6,27%
-------- YP515 - 4,04%
---- other M458 - 0,60%

Z280 - 46,87% of Polish R1a, including:
---- CTS1211 - 37,37%
-------- CTS3402 - 32,12%
------------ Y33 - 14,34%
---------------- Y2902 - 6,67%
---------------- S18681 - 5,05%
---------------- L1280 - 2,22%
---------------- other Y33 - 0,40%
------------ YP237 - 13,54%
---------------- YP389 - 4,44%
---------------- YP977 - 3,84%
---------------- L269 - 2,02%
---------------- other YP237 - 3,24%
------------ Y2613 - 4,04%
---------------- Y2608 - 3,64%
---------------- other Y2613 - 0,40%
------------ other CTS3402 - 0,20%
-------- YP343 - 4,04%
------------ YP371 - 2,83%
------------ other YP343 - 1,21%
---- Z92 - 8,48%
-------- Z685 - 5,66%
------------ CTS4648 - 2,83%
------------ YP351 - 2,83%
-------- Z92 type E - 2,42%
-------- other Z92 - 0,40%

All other R1a - 1,01%

[Peterski]

YFull estimates the age of R1a-CTS1211 to be ~4600 years, and TMRCA ~4400 years ago:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1211/

If these estimates are correct, Spiginas2 is not much younger than TMRCA of this subclade.

[Peterski]

Bump.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

There are some hypothesis that this was the Y-DNA of the first proto-Slavic speakers. But... just hypothesis.

[Peterski]

There are some hypothesis that this was the Y-DNA of the first proto-Slavic speakers.

I guess it was part of the Proto-Balto-Slavic community.

[Peterski]

Please note that Kivutkalns 19 (730-400 BC, Baltic_LBA) belongs to a Baltic-specific subclade of CTS1211, YP1034>Y13467+.

So Kivutkalns 19 was not ancestral to Slavic branches. But Spiginas 2 could be ancestral to both Slavic and Baltic CTS1211.

=======================

We don't know, what Y-DNA was typical for West Balts (such as Old Prussians). East Prussia, the homeland of West Balts, was conquered by Teutonic Knights and then colonized by German, Polish, Lithuanian, Belarusian and Russian settlers, who mixed with Old Prussians and assimilated them. We can only look at Y-DNA of East Prussians, their surnames, and try to establish which Y-DNA is from original West Balts.

Samples of R1a-CTS1211 of East Prussian origin (from FTDNA Projects):

1. Typically present-day East Baltic (Lithuanian & Latvian) branches:

kit 71994 (Franz Pallaschke, born in 1883 in Buddern) - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258

kit 85285 (Friedrich Lichtenstein born in 1870 in Königsberg) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>YP5223
kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619

kit 426239 (Kalinowski born in 1878 in Riesenwalde) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335

2. Typically East Slavic (Belarusian, Russian, Ukrainian) branches:

kit 175710 (Georg Glass born in 1810 in Babanten) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915

3. Typically West Slavic (Lechitic, Czecho-Slovak, Sorbian) branches:

kit 200664 (Simon Netke, born in 1686 in Königsberg) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314

4. Typically West Slavic Lechitic, and specifically Pomeranian-Kashubian:

kit 165792 (J. M. Sommerfeld, born in 1750 in Tiegenort) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP389>YP4669
kit E9666 (J. Pawellek born in 1853 in Ortelsburg) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243>YP269>Y6956>L670
kit N7393 (Reimer born in 1720 in Hoppenau) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>Y P243

5. Other typically Slavic ("Pan-Slavic" distribution today) subclades:

kit N18451 (Frank J. Zalewski, born in 1858 in Gotschalki) - CTS1211>YP343>YP340
kit 153224 (Leopold Lau, born in 1867 in Kompehnen) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
kit 275076 (Georg Gottlieb Gutt, born in 1729 in Brodnica) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
kit 330940 (Friedrich Malesha, born in 1800 in Soldahnen) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1 448
kit E4464 (Karl Labinsky born in 1840 in Trempen) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1 448>FGC19273
kit 2546 (Johann Piasetzki, born in 1860 in Sensburg) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463>YP1428*
kit 131361 (Jan Jablonowski, born b4 WW2 in Prioma) - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

[Peterski]

Map of East Prussian samples of R1a, N1 and I2a:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?232019-R1a-M458-L1029*&p=4898786#post4898786

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?232019-R1a-M458-L1029*&p=4898830&viewfull=1#post4898830

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?206149-Central-Europe-ethnic-map-from-1880-shows-Dutch-as-quot-low-Germans-quot&p=4307048&viewfull=1#post4307048

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=4459328&viewfull=1#post4459328

Map: https://s31.postimg.org/mfwjkq5or/Old_Prussian_R1a_surnames.png

https://s31.postimg.org/mfwjkq5or/Old_Prussian_R1a_surnames.png

[Bobby Martnen]

Two different estimates of percentages of R1a subgroups in Poland (CTS1211 is over 1/3 of Polish R1a):


What subgroup of R1a does R1ethel have?

[Peterski]

What subgroup of R1a does R1ethel have?

Not this, a different one.

================

West Balts (Prusai, Nadruviai, Skalviai and Jotvingiai) in 12th-13th centuries:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a6/6b/54/a66b54c3e4caf23b3de74e138f6dfcf2.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a6/6b/54/a66b54c3e4caf23b3de74e138f6dfcf2.jpg

[Peterski]

R1a-CTS1211 is not only about 1/5 of Polish men, but also for example about 1/4 of Belarusian and Russian men.

It was also about 1/5 of all Y-DNA in pre-war East Prussia (sample size = 84, including 38 R1a, including 33 R1a in which case subclade could be determined - of which 16 CTS1211 - so CTS1211 was 48.5% of all R1a, and around 1/5 of all Y-DNA in East Prussia).

It seems that West Balts such as Old Prussians had a lot of CTS1211 (perhaps more than present-day East Balts).

Surnames of East Prussians with CTS1211:

kit E10339 - surname of the oldest known ancestor not given
kit 85285 - Friedrich Lichtenstein b. in 1870 in Königsberg
kit 175710 - Georg Glass b. in 1810 in Babanten
kit 200664 - Simon Netke, b. in 1686 in Königsberg
kit 165792 - J. M. Sommerfeld, b. in 1750 in Tiegenort
kit N7393 - Reimer b. in 1720 in Hoppenau
kit 153224 - Leopold Lau, b. in 1867 in Kompehnen
kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, b. in 1729 in Brodnica
kit 71994 - Franz Pallaschke, b. in 1883 in Buddern
kit 330940 - Friedrich Malesha, b. in 1800 in Soldahnen
kit 2546 - Johann Piasetzki, b. in 1860 in Sensburg
kit E4464 - Karl Labinsky b. in 1840 in Trempen
kit E9666 - J. Pawellek b. in 1853 in Ortelsburg
kit 426239 - Kalinowski b. in 1878 in Riesenwalde
kit 131361 - J. Jablonowski, born near Soldau
kit N18451 - Frank J. Zalewski, b. in 1858 in Gotschalki

[Jana]

CTS1211 is most common type of R1a subclade among southern Slavs (except Bulgarians). So I don't think it has baltic roots :)

[Peterski]

CTS1211 is most common type of R1a subclade among southern Slavs (except Bulgarians). So I don't think it has baltic roots :)

Proto-Balto-Slavic roots apparently.

Read my posts above, I proved that it is just as common among Balts as it is among East Slavs.

[Hevo]

Wait, is Kivutkalns 153 R1a>Z284> YP1370? Very interesting, R1a-Z284 is barely in the Baltic States anymore.

[Peterski]

Wait, is Kivutkalns 153 R1a>Z284> YP1370? Very interesting, R1a-Z284 is barely in the Baltic States anymore.

What is its age ???

[Hevo]

What is its age ???

800–545 BC, I am not sure if Genetiker is 100% reliable though.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/

[Peterski]

So I don't think it has baltic roots

Balts are an artificial group considering that West Balts are no more closely related to East Balts than they are to Slavs.

In other words, Balto-Slavs cannot be divided into just 2 groups - Balts and Slavs.

They have be divided into 3 equidistant groups - West Balts, Slavs, and East Balts.

It seems that CTS1211 was more common among West Balts (Old Prussians) than it is among present-day East Balts.

[Jana]

It is obviously both baltic and slavic marker from beginning, not exclusively slavic. I always suspected that because it's logical.

[Peterski]

The biggest mystery is still the origin of R1a-M458. Still absent from ancient DNA.

[Peterski]

Turlojiske3, Lithuania, Bronze Age, 1010–800 BC, R1a1a1b1a2a-YP617 (Genetiker's calls).

This is a subclade of Z92>Y4459:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4459/

Basal R-Y4459* has been found in North-Eastern Poland - id:YF10363POL [PL-Podlaskie].

All of Z92 is about 8.5% to 10% of Polish R1a (and divide in half for % of Polish Y-DNA).

[Peterski]

Wait, is Kivutkalns 153 R1a>Z284> YP1370? Very interesting

Yes!

Kivutkalns153, Latvia, Bronze Age, 800–545 BC, R1a1a1b1a3-YP1370 (a subclade of R1a-Z284).

I guess this Latvian Z284 proves that some R1a came to Scandinavia from the East Baltic area:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?219415-Finnish-Y&p=4877206&viewfull=1#post4877206

First R1a came to Scandinavia already with Corded Ware culture, while N1c came probably much later.

These are the oldest R1a samples from Scandinavia:

Sweden RISE94, Viby, Götaland, 2621-2472 BC
Denmark RISE61, Kyndeløse, Zealand, 2650-2300 BC
Sweden LNBA, Ölsund, Hälsingland, 2573-2140 BC
Denmark RISE42, Marbjerg, Zealand, 2191-1972 BC

As you can see 3 of them are from Southern Scandinavia, but one (Olsund) is from Northern Sweden.

Olsund individual is discussed in this paper:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/03/03/113241.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/03/03/113241.DC1/113241-1.pdf

About the origins of Corded Ware culture:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/12/corded-ware-as-offshoot-of-hungarian.html

For comparison the oldest known sample of N1c from Europe is also from 2500 BC, but found near Smolensk in Russia. There was no any N1c in Scandinavia at that time, but there was already some in western Russia.

R1a migrated to Scandinavia either from Latvia-Lithuania-Poland by boats across the Baltic Sea, or from Germany (both routes are possible). N1c migrated to Scandinavia much later and probably from Finland-Estonia.

===============

Possible routes of R1a migration to Scandinavia with Corded Ware culture (red arrows):

https://i.imgur.com/GfE3Abm.png

https://i.imgur.com/GfE3Abm.png


Why do you exclude migration via Finland, as there were Cordeds also

Because this paper claims that Olsund sample was most autosomally similar to Baltic Bronze Age samples:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/03/03/113241.full.pdf

CTRL + F type Olsund and find this info.

Also rock art of native Scandinavian I-men depicts the arrival of some R1-men by boats:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?199974-Arrival-of-Indo-Europeans-to-Scandinavia-in-rock-art

This is consistent with Oslund man being descended from immigrants from Baltic States.

[Peterski]

Balts are an artificial group considering that West Balts are no more closely related to East Balts than they are to Slavs.

In other words, Balto-Slavs cannot be divided into just 2 groups - Balts and Slavs.

They have be divided into 3 equidistant groups - West Balts, Slavs, and East Balts.

It seems that CTS1211 was more common among West Balts (Old Prussians) than it is among present-day East Balts.

^^^
Here is what I meant:

Most linguists don't put West Baltic and East Baltic in the same category to the exclusion of Slavic anymore. They put West Baltic, Slavic and East Baltic in the same category - Balto-Slavic - which then splits into three equal branches (West Baltic, East Baltic and Slavic). That's the point.

So West Baltic and East Baltic are more or less like Italic and Celtic (Italo-Celtic).

Not like 2 different branches of Celtic or 2 different branches of Italic.

[Rethel]

Could ancestors of ca. 1/5 of Polish men originate from Bronze Age Latvia and Lithuania?

Why not, but: if Z280 is Baltic, M458 local, sarmatian or ancient corded, then: who is slavic? :laugh:

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Why not, but: if Z280 is Baltic, M458 local, sarmatian or ancient corded, then: who is slavic? [emoji23]That's actually the question on what we do not have an answer...

Btw its just wrong to say "Baltic", since term "Balts" are invented in 18th century to describe Letto-Lithuanians.

[Dibran]

What subgroup of R1a does R1ethel have?

I think he’s M458*

[Dibran]

The biggest mystery is still the origin of R1a-M458. Still absent from ancient DNA.

Isn’t M458* found in homogenous Turkic speaking fol in northern Caucasus? If basal M458 is popping up around Steppe and kavkaz maybe it’s Alamo-Sarmatian. It may have then incubated in Central Europe forming L260 and L1029 which participated in great migration of Slavic tribes and possibly Ostrogoths?

[Rethel]

Letto-Lithuanians.

And where did you loose Prusians, Galindians, Yotvingians and Kuronians?

[Rethel]

Isn’t M458* found in homogenous Turkic speaking fol in northern Caucasus? If basal M458 is popping up around Steppe and kavkaz maybe it’s Alamo-Sarmatian. It may have then incubated in Central Europe forming L260 and L1029 which participated in great migration of Slavic tribes and possibly Ostrogoths?

This is exactly what my theory says: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?222158-Rethel-s-DNA-actually-I-have-pan-european-results-if-not-pan-Indoeuropean&p=4708525&viewfull=1#post4708525

[Vlatko Vukovic]

And where did you loose Prusians, Galindians, Yotvingians and Kuronians?Becouse term "Balts" are invented in 18th century.. and they didn't exist in this time. Just Letto-Lithuanians.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Isn’t M458* found in homogenous Turkic speaking fol in northern Caucasus? If basal M458 is popping up around Steppe and kavkaz maybe it’s Alamo-Sarmatian. It may have then incubated in Central Europe forming L260 and L1029 which participated in great migration of Slavic tribes and possibly Ostrogoths?So you think, in Poland is Alano-Sarmatian M458 ?

[Rethel]

Becouse term "Balts" are invented in 18th century.. and they didn't exist in this time. Just Letto-Lithuanians.

So, who are Prussians, Yovingians, Galindians-Gołędians, Kuronians and others?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

So, who are Prussians, Yovingians, Galindians-Gołędians, Kuronians and others?

Assimilated. Prussians by Germans and maybe Poles (you know it better), while Galindians are Baltic tribe which was assimilated by Slavs.

[Rethel]

Assimilated. Prussians by Germans and maybe Poles (you know it better), while Galindians are Baltic tribe which was assimilated by Slavs.

This is not what I asked about.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

This is not what I asked about.

Then you asked who were they ethno-linguisticaly in early medieval period? They were that what we are now calling Balts. But every Slavic haplogroup is foundable in high percentage among Baltic population becouse, as you know, they surely was 1 Balto-Slavic community 5-6th century BC. For example, Milograd culture is not attributed neither to Balts nor Slavs... it's simply called in science as Balto-Slavic, since it's very hard to divide Balts and Slavs in the period of medieval times, and before it.

[Rethel]

Then you asked who were they ethno-linguisticaly in early medieval period? They were that what we are now calling Balts. But every Slavic haplogroup is foundable in high percentage among Baltic population becouse, as you know, they surely was 1 Balto-Slavic community 5-6th century BC. For example, Milograd culture is not attributed neither to Balts nor Slavs... it's simply called in science as Balto-Slavic, since it's very hard to divide Balts and Slavs in the period of medieval times, and before it.

But later was a difference, and baltic languages were clearly different than slavic, so people also were divided.
Btw, Indoeuropeans, as they seem partialy to wander in family groups (for example L23 or Z93) then still other
families did such wandering together with them. Some did not multiplyed so much as others, some died out, so
today we have sometimes some dominant clade, but always with minority of others. So it seems to be obvious
that dialectical divisions of Indoeuropeans does not fit to singular families, and they have to be seen just as the
geographical linguistic difference which can determined only the oldest known ancestor - if it is relevant at all...

About Slavs vs. Balts we are aware of since Xth century. So, since then they are separated. What was earlier,
it is not known, and haplotypes will not help here too much either. Some clades maybe, but not majority, not all.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

But later was a difference, and baltic languages were clearly different than slavic, so people also were divided.
Btw, Indoeuropeans, as they seem partialy to wander in family groups (for example L23 or Z93) then still other
families did such wandering together with them. Some did not multiplyed so much as others, some dyied out, so
today we have sometimes some dominant clade, but always with minority of others. So it seems to be obvious
that dialectical divisions of Indoeuropeans does not fit to singular families, and they have to be seen just as the
geographical linguistic difference which can determined only the oldest known ancestor - if it is relevant at all...

About Slavs vs. Balts we are aware of since Xth century. So, since then they are separated. What was earlier,
it is not known, and haplotypes will not help here too much either. some clades maybe, but not majority, not all.

Yes, the languages are divided becouse the Slavic languages are the result of the some influence on the Balto-Slavic language. We don't know who influenced this, but it simply happened. Also, there is need to be said that Slavic languages also has some Iranic loanwords, while it's not a case in Baltic languages. That's what linguistis are claiming.

But you asked about M558 as "Baltic", It's simply Balto-Slavic, since this ancient things (like Y-DNA) can't be divided between Slavs and Balts. They're one family in the Y-DNA sense.

[Rethel]

They're one family in the Y-DNA sense.

Is here some turbolithuanian? :laugh:

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Is here some turbolithuanian? :laugh:

They are not pleasured that they are sharing the same Y-DNA with Russians... but what can i do about this :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Art23]

Well, according to Russians, R1a is the one and only Russian haplogroup.

[Rethel]

Well, according to Russians, R1a is the one and only Russian haplogroup.

And they are almost right.

[Ülev]

Well, according to Russians, R1a is the one and only Russian haplogroup.


And they are almost right.

privet rebyata, kak dela? / привет ребята, как дела?

[Rethel]

Charaszo, a kak tam dieła w Kitaj-gorodie?

[Ülev]

Китай убер аллес

[Art23]

And they are almost right.

Right in what ? Monopolising the haplogroup ? Poles are Russians according to that "logic".

[Rethel]

Right in what ? Monopolising the haplogroup ? Poles are Russians according to that "logic".

:picard2:

You did not even understand what you said yourself...?

True Russians as Slavs as IEs are R1.
It doesn't mean, that all R1 are Russians. :picard2:

[Art23]

I understand way too well what you are saying. You are spreading Polish nationalist propaganda. And I am against both Polish and Russian nationalist propaganda portraying Poles and Russians as the true and only R1a.

[Rethel]

I understand way too well what you are saying.

If you would, you wouldn;t write such nonsense:


You are spreading Polish nationalist propaganda.

:picard2:

If you do not understand english better say it.
Otherwise, stop imputting your delusions to others.

[Peterski]

Y-SNP calls from ancient Baltic states:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/01/31/y-snp-calls-from-ancient-northern-europe/

Pigmentation of ancient Baltic samples:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/04/pigmentation-of-ancient-northern-europeans/