Classify Kazan-Tatar man

[SCARtem]

https://st.tatarlove.ru/690x590xR/5a/60/a8/5a60a87fc4457b33a4e7786b.jpg
https://st.tatarlove.ru/690x590xR/5a/60/a8/5a60a87ec4457b33a4e77866.jpg
https://st.tatarlove.ru/690x590xR/5a/60/a8/5a60a879c4457b33a4e77856.jpg

[Veslan]

Predominantly East Nordic, but also quite mongolized, so technically Turanid.

[Odin]

East-Nordid + Turanid.

[Longobarda]

Sarmatian

[Ülev]

R1a M-458, ARh+

[Longobarda]

R1a M-458, ARh+

Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic. Corded Ware would be Z284, but Corded Ware and Scythian sharing a common origin (as evidenced by mtDNA H2a1)

[greasycaveman]

East Nordid + Turanid

[Columella]

Pred Nordic. Possible Noric/Turanid infl

[greasycaveman]

Pred Nordic. Possible Noric/Turanid infl

this guy isnt predominantly nordic
do you say this because of his light hair?
his face screams turanid. he is half nordic half turanid.

[Columella]

Pred Turanid means Brachycefaly and a degree of face flatness that this man doesn’t seem to have. He is leptodolicomorph with angular features and Ann overall Nordic appearance, likely intermediate in face structure with the “Turanic” emerging especially (and obviously) in eye region..

[Böri]

Woman looks abit Turanid, the man doesn't.

[Proto-Shaman]

Woman looks abit Turanid, the man doesn't.
Actually the man looks Nordic + Andronovo Turanid and the woman looks Aralo-Turanid (50/50).

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic. Corded Ware would be Z284, but Corded Ware and Scythian sharing a common origin (as evidenced by mtDNA H2a1)

What the hell Scythians have to do with Slavs?

What the hell Iranic group has to do with Slavic one?

---> btw. Sarmatism loanwords are extremly rare in Slavic language, so their influence is almost non-existant in Slavic ethnogenesis.

[Rethel]

What the hell Scythians have to do with Slavs?

What the hell Iranic group has to do with Slavic one?

This: 72124

[Vlatko Vukovic]

This: 72124

Yes, but what special saying this?

It says that Scandos R1a, Balto-Slavs and Iranians R1a are of the same origin. Perhaps of Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture. But what it changes? Those are 3 totally different ethnic groups. I noticed, whenever is the thread about ethnogenesis of Slavs; Scythians, Sarmatians and even Persians are included in that? Why so?

Z280 is non-existant among Iranic group, while Z93 is almost non-existan in Slavic group. Why people are making them very very relative while there is some good genetical distance between them.

[Rethel]

Yes, but what special saying this?

You asked what they have to do with each other. I answered :)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

You asked what they have to do with each other. I answered :)

Yes. Common R1a ancestors, but it's well-known.

But i am not sure what Longobarda mean with "Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic." ?!

[TheForeigner]

You guys are only saying Turanid because you know he is Tatar and know little about Tatars. They both just look European.

[Rethel]

Yes. Common R1a ancestors, but it's well-known.

But i am not sure what Longobarda mean with "Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic." ?!

They participated in Slavs anyway as in slavic lingo are some borrowings, even heavy.
Remember, that Serbs, Croats and probably Ants were sarmatian. And later even in the
very slavic era, Russians did assimilate many post-iranian remains in the forrest and steppe
zone - so similarly could be earlier. For example there are traces of Scythians in present day
Poland, so it could be also elsewhere as well. And there are ties between post-alanian remains
on Caucasus and M458 which is present in all slavic world (vide mine theory).

[Kivan]

East-Nordid + Volgid.

[greasycaveman]

You guys are only saying Turanid because you know he is Tatar and know little about Tatars. They both just look European.

are you blind? i have more european ancestors then tatars, and i am still pontid + turanid

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes. Common R1a ancestors, but it's well-known.

But i am not sure what Longobarda mean with "Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic." ?!
How can Scytho-Turkic R1a be considered as a connection between Slavs and Indo-Iranians xD

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They participated in Slavs anyway as in slavic lingo are some borrowings, even heavy.
Remember, that Serbs, Croats and probably Ants were sarmatian. And later even in the
very slavic era, Russians did assimilate many post-iranian remains in the forrest and steppe
zone - so similarly could be earlier. For example there are traces of Scythians in present day
Poland, so it could be also elsewhere as well. And there are ties between post-alanian remains
on Caucasus and M458 which is present in all slavic world (vide mine theory).

They participated, indeed, but loanwords of Iranic origin didn't heavy influenced the modern day Slavic. Still this idea is alive that: Balts + Sarmatians = Slavs. But it's more complicated that it seems on the first look.

One is surely truth; that Balto-Slavic Z280 is non-foundable among excavated Scythians and Sarmatians as well.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

How can Scytho-Turkic R1a be considered as a connection between Slavs and Indo-Iranians xD

Rethel posted above how.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

How can Scytho-Turkic R1a be considered as a connection between Slavs and Indo-Iranians xD

Yes, we have basical problem since you think that Scythians were at all Turkic people :D

[Ülev]

Turan strong in this thread I see

[Sacrificed Ram]

East-Nordid with some pamirid with almost lack of mongol features.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

And there are ties between post-alanian remains
on Caucasus and M458 which is present in all slavic world (vide mine theory).

And... yes.., I read on the some Serbian forum yesterday that the archeological data from the Sarmatians and Alans from the 1st century (our era) was given to test and they were exclusively R1a-Z94, one special subclade of J1 and G2a2. So this M458 on the Caucasus mostly probably should be the result of the settlement of the East Slavs on this territory, nothing about Sarmatians there. So, there are no indeed, relations between Sarmatian genetics even with their geographicly closer Z280, and especially with M458.

[Rethel]

And... yes.., I read on the some Serbian forum yesterday that the archeological data from the Sarmatians and Alans from the 1st century (our era) was given to test and they were exclusively R1a-Z94, one special subclade of J1 and G2a2. So this M458 on the Caucasus mostly probably should be the result of the settlement of the East Slavs on this territory, nothing about Sarmatians there. So, there are no indeed, relations between Sarmatian genetics even with their geographicly closer Z280, and especially with M458.

No ancient M458 was found yet, so making a conclusion as such
is too early and sensless, especially, that they were not exclusivly
Z94, J and G. More than that, at the time of sarmatian expantion
M458 couted couple of families spreaded across Europe.

[Pizdastratos]

You guys are only saying Turanid because you know he is Tatar and know little about Tatars. They both just look European.

Indubitably

[Vlatko Vukovic]

No ancient M458 was found yet, so making a concluion as such is
sensless, especially, that they were not exclusivly Z94, J and g.
More than that, at the time of sarmatian expantion M458 couted
couple of families spreaded across Europe.

Maybe it's early to conclude anything.. But also it cannot be said that M458 people from Pomeranian culture are descedants of Sarmatians... It sounds funny...

[Zroota]

Volgid + Turanid + Pamirid with strong influences of East Nordid....

World record for the most phenotypes listed in one post for me. Lol.

[Rethel]

Maybe it's early to conclude anything.. But also it cannot be said that M458 people from Pomeranian culture are descedants of Sarmatians... It sounds funny...

And how do you know, that pomeranian culture was M458? :shocked:

[Vlatko Vukovic]

And how do you know, that pomeranian culture was M458? :shocked:

I don't know indeed, but it evolved from the Lusatian culture. Since modern Poland is the core of M458, it's not hard to give a hypothesis about Pomeranian M458, or you think that Sarmatians settled in Poland and this M458 is all exactly from them?!

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes, we have basical problem since you think that Scythians were at all Turkic people :D
Not only this, but also the concentration of R1a in central asia is mostly to be found in the north. Btw I am L1b-M317 :clap:

[Decius]

East Nordid + Uralid badass turan-aryan combo, Turkic phenotype.

[Pahli]

Sarmatian

He is too Asian looking to look Sarmatian IMO, but he could be Scythian

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Not only this, but also the concentration of R1a in central asia is mostly to be found in the north.

Yes, so? I don't know what is your point.


Btw I am L1b-M317 :clap:

That's your new results? From which i remember you represented some other Y-DNA or am i wrong?

[Gangrel]

Not only this, but also the concentration of R1a in central asia is mostly to be found in the north. Btw I am L1b-M317 :clap:

yung pashtun

[Rethel]

I don't know indeed, but it evolved from the Lusatian culture. Since modern Poland is the core of M458, it's not hard to give a hypothesis about Pomeranian M458, or you think that Sarmatians settled in Poland and this M458 is all exactly from them?!

It is not known, but because of some factors which I have enumerated it could be probable.

But also is probable - what I also said - that M458 was spreaded by early Cordeds.

But even in this scenario sarmatian input would not be excluded, as such clades
like mine, are so widely spreaded, that could be of the corded and beaker origin.
Remeber also, that [the] slavic are only two, relatively young clades of M458.

Btw, when are you going to test yourself?

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes, so? I don't know what is your point.
My point is this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg


That's your new results? From which i remember you represented some other Y-DNA or am i wrong?
No. You are the first to know this.

[Proto-Shaman]

yung pashtun

Hun.

[jackrussell]

https://st.tatarlove.ru/690x590xR/5a/60/a8/5a60a87fc4457b33a4e7786b.jpg
https://st.tatarlove.ru/690x590xR/5a/60/a8/5a60a87ec4457b33a4e77866.jpg
https://st.tatarlove.ru/690x590xR/5a/60/a8/5a60a879c4457b33a4e77856.jpg

Turanoid couple .

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Btw, when are you going to test yourself?

I actually did autosomal test, from this i think i can draw Y-DNA?

Sadly is that i sent this to USA exactly before 1 month, and it never arrived yet......

[Longobarda]

What the hell Scythians have to do with Slavs?

What the hell Iranic group has to do with Slavic one?

---> btw. Sarmatism loanwords are extremly rare in Slavic language, so their influence is almost non-existant in Slavic ethnogenesis.

Rethel von Rethelsky has already answered to you.

[Pahli]

What the hell Scythians have to do with Slavs?

What the hell Iranic group has to do with Slavic one?

---> btw. Sarmatism loanwords are extremly rare in Slavic language, so their influence is almost non-existant in Slavic ethnogenesis.

Thats underrated, there is a cultural and linguistic influence on Slavs from Scytho-Sarmatians lol, I bet I can find ton of words we have in common.

[Rethel]

I actually did autosomal test,

Waiste of money.


from this i think i can draw Y-DNA?

Never sure, and general.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Thats underrated, there is a cultural and linguistic influence on Slavs from Scytho-Sarmatians lol, I bet I can find ton of words we have in common.

As i know about 30 words ?! Do you consider it as a lot? Germanic loanwords are more likely to found, than Sarmatians, but they still didn't participate in Slavic ethnogenesis. Bot of them (Germanic and Sarmatian people) influenced Slavs not from the inside ethnogenesis, but from the outside, as a neighbours...

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Waiste of money.



Never sure, and general.

I don't know, some members are saying that is it quite sure.

[Longobarda]

He is too Asian looking to look Sarmatian IMO, but he could be Scythian

I don't think that scythians were asian looking, at least not all. Maybe someone only. Have you ever seen what was their look? See the scythian Golden vases.

You have many here, they look europeans.

https://www.google.it/search?q=scythian+vases&newwindow=1&safe=active&dcr=0&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=VuYuS1-J2Yf_oM%253A%252CyHRXAD-aO22agM%252C_&usg=__TRT7qCg6w-dO50BiMMrYFItyMgk%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5sYOC9Y_ZAhUNkRQKHeD4D_8Q9QEIKzAA#imgr c=VuYuS1-J2Yf_oM:

[Pahli]

I don't think that scythians were asian looking, at least not all. Maybe someone only. Have you ever seen what was their look? See the scythian Golden vases.

You have many here, they look europeans.

https://www.google.it/search?q=scythian+vases&newwindow=1&safe=active&dcr=0&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=VuYuS1-J2Yf_oM%253A%252CyHRXAD-aO22agM%252C_&usg=__TRT7qCg6w-dO50BiMMrYFItyMgk%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5sYOC9Y_ZAhUNkRQKHeD4D_8Q9QEIKzAA#imgr c=VuYuS1-J2Yf_oM:

Sarmatians were even less Mongoloid than Scythians, he could look Scythian, but perhaps he is a bit too Mongoloid.

[Longobarda]

Sarmatians were even less Mongoloid than Scythians, he could look Scythian, but perhaps he is a bit too Mongoloid.

what do you think about this? In my opinion she does not look completely european. Maybe mixed with asians or completely asian?

http://www.lavanguardia.com/r/GODO/LV/p3/WebSite/Imagenes/2015/08/04/Recortada/LV_20150804_LV_FOTOS_D_54434753217-992x558@LaVanguardia-Web.jpg

[Longobarda]

Here another view:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ekY37ZoRX9s/VDqv5dqlu9I/AAAAAAAA4A0/MnfBDq3mBvM/s990/02-05-dama-de-elche-iberica-00.jpg

[jackrussell]

Here another view:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ekY37ZoRX9s/VDqv5dqlu9I/AAAAAAAA4A0/MnfBDq3mBvM/s990/02-05-dama-de-elche-iberica-00.jpg

http://www.videoindirme.net/video/fbookimage3/img-setenayguashekardesturkuler-185.jpg

[Yaglakar]

I don't think that scythians were asian looking, at least not all. Maybe someone only. Have you ever seen what was their look? See the scythian Golden vases.

You have many here, they look europeans.

https://www.google.it/search?q=scythian+vases&newwindow=1&safe=active&dcr=0&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=VuYuS1-J2Yf_oM%253A%252CyHRXAD-aO22agM%252C_&usg=__TRT7qCg6w-dO50BiMMrYFItyMgk%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5sYOC9Y_ZAhUNkRQKHeD4D_8Q9QEIKzAA#imgr c=VuYuS1-J2Yf_oM:


"As the Scythians came in contact with the Greeks at the Western end of their area, their artwork influenced Greek art, and was influenced by it; also many pieces were made by Greek craftsmen for Scythian customers. Although we know that goldsmith work was an important area of Ancient Greek art, very little has survived from the core of the Greek world, and finds from Scythian burials represent the largest group of pieces we now have. The mixture of the two cultures in terms of the background of the artists, the origin of the forms and styles, and the possible history of the objects, gives rise to complex questions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_art

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/0130_001detail.jpg
https://thegamacollective.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/artist-not-recorded-the-prophet-muhammad-in-a-mosque-16th-century.jpg

Utilizing your logic Muhammad was a "Mongoloid" and his disciples and followers were "Mongoloids" as well...

[Longobarda]

"As the Scythians came in contact with the Greeks at the Western end of their area, their artwork influenced Greek art, and was influenced by it; also many pieces were made by Greek craftsmen for Scythian customers. Although we know that goldsmith work was an important area of Ancient Greek art, very little has survived from the core of the Greek world, and finds from Scythian burials represent the largest group of pieces we now have. The mixture of the two cultures in terms of the background of the artists, the origin of the forms and styles, and the possible history of the objects, gives rise to complex questions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_art

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/0130_001detail.jpg
https://thegamacollective.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/artist-not-recorded-the-prophet-muhammad-in-a-mosque-16th-century.jpg

Utilizing your logic Muhammad was a "Mongoloid" and his disciples and followers were "Mongoloids" as well...

Sorry but it is just the way opposite. Wikipedia can tell whatever they want, but everybody recognizes that the art of forgery and cizeling was born at east and not in Europe. And Scythians were recognized as great cizelers in gold. Yoy may just Google "scythian gold" and see what THEY realized for them and for other cultures around the world. Their style is reconizable at legues distance.
Then, I know that many arabian painting have been reaklized in oriental style, sino-tibetan phenotypes everywhere, but this is known. Instead, the representation of scythians has been made BY THEMSELVES, except for greek vases or plates (also discovered in etruscan tombs, as in Vulci). So, please, study more the scythian civilization as they were not barbarian archers/riders only. And please read the Gimbutas books. Maybe you will understand more about them and what they did.

[Longobarda]

http://www.videoindirme.net/video/fbookimage3/img-setenayguashekardesturkuler-185.jpg

?

[jackrussell]

?

??

:D

[Proto-Shaman]

And please read the Gimbutas books. Maybe you will understand more about them and what they did.
Gimbutas was a Baltic nationalist, who searched for European identity in Turkish culture.

[Massagetae]

If I saw him, I would think Lithuanian or possibly Russian.

[decordoba]

Russian (European) and Siberian mix - any East Asian admixture

[Yaglakar]

Sorry but it is just the way opposite. Wikipedia can tell whatever they want, but everybody recognizes that the art of forgery and cizeling was born at east and not in Europe. And Scythians were recognized as great cizelers in gold. Yoy may just Google "scythian gold" and see what THEY realized for them and for other cultures around the world. Their style is reconizable at legues distance.
Then, I know that many arabian painting have been reaklized in oriental style, sino-tibetan phenotypes everywhere, but this is known. Instead, the representation of scythians has been made BY THEMSELVES, except for greek vases or plates (also discovered in etruscan tombs, as in Vulci). So, please, study more the scythian civilization as they were not barbarian archers/riders only. And please read the Gimbutas books. Maybe you will understand more about them and what they did.

“While such objects could conceivably be examined from the perspective of both their makers and their different consumers or audience groups, in classical archaeology the focus has in general been on the original creators-the itinerant workshops of architects and marble carvers building tombs for the dynasties in Asia Minor, the classical Greek sculptors and painters who had designed the famous prototypes of the copies or variations adorning Roman interiors and gardens, and, in the case of Greco-Scythian art, the Greek artisans hired by the nomadic chiefs of the Black Sea steppe to recreate indigenous types of drinking-vessel, jewelry, and weaponry according to superior representational possibilities of Greek art. The hypothetical constellation of Greek master jewelers plying their craft for tribal leaders is almost universally accepted in academic literature.” Caspar Meyer. 2013. Greco-Scythian Art and the Birth of Eurasia: From Classical Antiquity to Russian Modernity. Oxford University Press. p. 2-3

“While the artistic shaping of Scythian divinities was in most instances Greek, Iranian ideology is often discernible under the Greek appearance, in certain cases Iranian artistic tradition, too: Scythian art was also related to that of Luristan. It is noteworthy that the shapes of vessels of Greek manufacture, discovered in Scythian complexes, are typically Scythian; numerous objects were executed as decorations of Scythian dress and headgear (pendants, etc.) or horse harnesses. Thus, most of art were intentionally executed by Greek artisans according to Scythian preferences and probably in accordance with Scythian orders.” Yulia Ustinova. 1998. The Supreme Gods of the Bosporan Kingdom: Celestial Aphrodite and the Most High God. Brill Academic Pub. p. 22

The later Turkic Khazars had similar kind of relationship with Greek settlers around the black sea region.

Who said that Scythians were a bunch of horse nomads and horse archers? What I’m saying is that ‘appearance’ of Scythians as depicted in archaeological artefacts is dubious and doubtful because the great majority of art was crafted by Greek colonists. Finest objects found in Scythian burials were undoubtedly made by Greeks. This is supported by the bulk of academia. By the way, no nomadic empire or khaganate was a bunch of horse archers. Majority were skilled craftsmen, artisans, and blacksmiths but not at the level of Greek stylistic art, and were more focused on utility and execution.

Frescos and paintings of Muhammad and his followers as 'Asians' (aka Seljuk overlords and later Mongols) is good a example of how 'appearance' rarely mattered to portray the people or historical figures in question. What mattered are dominant socio-political trends and depicting Scythians as "Europeans" (aka Greeks) was considered as 'superior' by the Greek craftsmen. What does it have to do with forgery?...

[Rethel]

Gimbutas was a Baltic nationalist, who searched for European identity in Turkish culture.

She was from Poland.
She almost never lived on Lithuania.

[Pizdastratos]

She was from Poland.
She almost never lived on Lithuania.

I'm sure for Rzeczpospolitist there was even no such country as Lithuania :D

[Rethel]

I'm sure for Rzeczpospolitist there was even no such country as Lithuania :D

Of course there is - but at the time we talk about there was two states: Polish and
Lithuanian. She was from the polish one, and was born as Maria Olsejko (Olsejkówna/
/Olsejczanka) and after the husband she is Maria Gimbutowa. Period.

I even made a thread about it.

[Pizdastratos]

She was from the polish one, and was born as Maria Olsejko (Olsejkówna/
/Olsejczanka) and after the husband she is Maria Gimbutowa. Period.

I even made a thread about it.

Why is there no any information about it even in Polish Wikipedia? People must know.
Whole internet remains silent on the matter.

[Rethel]

Why is there no any information about it even in Polish Wikipedia? People must know.
Whole internet remains silent on the matter.

Maybe she is not so important.
But look at the date and place where she was born.

[Pizdastratos]

But look at the date and place where she was born.

Urodzona jako Marija Birutė Alseikaitė (not Olsejko/Olsejkówna/Olsejczanka)
ur. 23 stycznia 1921 w Wilnie (Lithuanian city)

[Rethel]

Urodzona jako Marija Birutė Alseikaitė (not Olsejko/Olsejkówna/Olsejczanka)
ur. 23 stycznia 1921 w Wilnie (Lithuanian city)

And where you did read about it? On wikipedia? :picard1:
Do you really think, that in Poland was used lithuanian? :picard2:

Here (http://pbc.biaman.pl/dlibra/plain-content?id=15962) you can find her father, a doctior, Daniel Olsejko.

Btw, even if she would be written in lithuanian, does
it proof, that she was from... the state of Lithuania? :picard2:

And btw, Olsejkos are old polish family, so... anyway...

[Longobarda]

Michael Ruark (https://michaelruark.wordpress.com/)

Ashkenaz, Celtic-Scythia, Khazaria, Europe, Israel

https://michaelruark.wordpress.com/2017/02/18/scythian-khazars/

[chyyris]

East-Nordid + Turanid.

+1

[Longobarda]

“While such objects could conceivably be examined from the perspective of both their makers and their different consumers or audience groups, in classical archaeology the focus has in general been on the original creators-the itinerant workshops of architects and marble carvers building tombs for the dynasties in Asia Minor, the classical Greek sculptors and painters who had designed the famous prototypes of the copies or variations adorning Roman interiors and gardens, and, in the case of Greco-Scythian art, the Greek artisans hired by the nomadic chiefs of the Black Sea steppe to recreate indigenous types of drinking-vessel, jewelry, and weaponry according to superior representational possibilities of Greek art. The hypothetical constellation of Greek master jewelers plying their craft for tribal leaders is almost universally accepted in academic literature.” Caspar Meyer. 2013. Greco-Scythian Art and the Birth of Eurasia: From Classical Antiquity to Russian Modernity. Oxford University Press. p. 2-3

“While the artistic shaping of Scythian divinities was in most instances Greek, Iranian ideology is often discernible under the Greek appearance, in certain cases Iranian artistic tradition, too: Scythian art was also related to that of Luristan. It is noteworthy that the shapes of vessels of Greek manufacture, discovered in Scythian complexes, are typically Scythian; numerous objects were executed as decorations of Scythian dress and headgear (pendants, etc.) or horse harnesses. Thus, most of art were intentionally executed by Greek artisans according to Scythian preferences and probably in accordance with Scythian orders.” Yulia Ustinova. 1998. The Supreme Gods of the Bosporan Kingdom: Celestial Aphrodite and the Most High God. Brill Academic Pub. p. 22

The later Turkic Khazars had similar kind of relationship with Greek settlers around the black sea region.

Who said that Scythians were a bunch of horse nomads and horse archers? What I’m saying is that ‘appearance’ of Scythians as depicted in archaeological artefacts is dubious and doubtful because the great majority of art was crafted by Greek colonists. Finest objects found in Scythian burials were undoubtedly made by Greeks. This is supported by the bulk of academia. By the way, no nomadic empire or khaganate was a bunch of horse archers. Majority were skilled craftsmen, artisans, and blacksmiths but not at the level of Greek stylistic art, and were more focused on utility and execution.

Frescos and paintings of Muhammad and his followers as 'Asians' (aka Seljuk overlords and later Mongols) is good a example of how 'appearance' rarely mattered to portray the people or historical figures in question. What mattered are dominant socio-political trends and depicting Scythians as "Europeans" (aka Greeks) was considered as 'superior' by the Greek craftsmen. What does it have to do with forgery?...

Skunkha, king of the Sakā tigraxaudā ("pointed-cap-wearing Sakae"). Detail of Behistun Inscription

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Behistun.Inscript.Skunkha.jpg/150px-Behistun.Inscript.Skunkha.jpg

Persepolis, Apadana

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Elam/persepolis_images/Saka.jpg

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Elam/persepolis_images/Skudrian.jpg


Scythian Death mask

http://drakenberg.weebly.com/uploads/6/7/4/7/6747442/9106132.jpg?279

Boardman, John (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boardman_(art_historian)) ed., The Oxford History of Classical Art, 1993, OUP, ISBN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0198143869 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0198143869)
Bunker, Emma C. (2002). Nomadic art of the eastern Eurasian steppes: the Eugene V. Thaw and other New York collections (fully available online)] (http://libmma.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15324coll10/id/96120/rec/302isbn=9780300096880). New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Jacobson, Esther, The Art of the Scythians, 1995, BRILL, ISBN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 9004098569 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9004098569), 9789004098565, google books (https://books.google.com/books?id=ciZquFt9IFIC&printsec=frontcover)
Piotrovsky, Boris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Piotrovsky), et al. "Excavations and Discoveries in Scythian Lands", in From the Lands of the Scythians: Ancient Treasures from the Museums of the U.S.S.R., 3000 B.C.–100 B.C. The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, v. 32, no. 5 (1974), available online as a series of PDFs (http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/24.97.50,51) (bottom of the page).
The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica. “Hermitage.” Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopædia Britannica, inc., 20 Sept. 2016, Link label (http://www.britannica.com/topic/Hermitage-museum-Saint-Petersburg-Russia)
Further reading[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scythian_art&action=edit&section=7)]

Borovka G. Scythian Art Paragon New York 1967
Charrière G. Scythian Art: Crafts of the Early Eurasian Nomads Alpine Fine Arts Collections Ltd, New York 1979.
Reeder E. D. (ed.) Scythian Gold: Treasures from Ancient Ukraine Abrams Inc, New York 1999
Piotrovsky, B. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_B._Piotrovsky), L. Galanina, and N. Grach Scythian Art Phaidon, Oxford, and Aurora, Leningrad 1987
Rice, T. T. The Scythians Frederick A. Praeger, Inc. New York 1957
Rolle R. Die Welt der Skythen Bucher, Luzern und Frankfurt, 1980
Sher, Yakov A.; "On the Sources of the Scythic Animal Style", Arctic Anthropology, Vol. 25, No. 2 (1988), pp. 47–60, University of Wisconsin Press, JSTOR (https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316167)
Stoddert, K. (ed.) From the Lands of the Scythians (http://libmma.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15324coll10/id/197328) The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York 1985
Williams, Dyfri; Ogden, Jack, Greek gold: jewellery of the classical world, Metropolitan Museum of Art/British Museum, 1994, ISBN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Book_Number) 0714122025 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0714122025), 9780714122021 (many pieces from Scythian tombs)

[Longobarda]

Gold technology of the ancient Scythians – gold from the kurgan Arzhan 2, Tuva



http://journals.openedition.org/archeosciences/2193

[Longobarda]

Zarzian, what's wrong with you thumbing me down each post I make? You thumbed me down even the one with the carvings and the Death mask of the scythians! If you have any existential problem with scythians or other matters, please refer to a psychiatric help.

[Proto-Shaman]

She was from Poland.
She almost never lived on Lithuania.

its like sayin she deceased in Los Angeles, so she was American. If she had deceased in Lebanon, she was Arab?

[Rethel]

its like sayin she deceased in Los Angeles, so she was American. If she had deceased in Lebanon, she was Arab?

Did I say somewhere, she was a Poless?
I said only, she was from Poland.
Born and raised here.

Btw, not only Olsejkos, but also a Gumbut kin
are quite well polonized family still living here.

[Yaglakar]

Michael Ruark (https://michaelruark.wordpress.com/)
Ashkenaz, Celtic-Scythia, Khazaria, Europe, Israel
https://michaelruark.wordpress.com/2017/02/18/scythian-khazars/

Not an academic publication. :) Scythians were Iranic speaking and Khazars were Turkic speaking.


Gold technology of the ancient Scythians – gold from the kurgan Arzhan 2, Tuva
http://journals.openedition.org/archeosciences/2193

How does that prove your point of them looking like "Europeans"? I never claimed Scythians were bad artisans and craftsmen. Plus Eastern Scythians were undoubtedly of mixed Eurasian descent.

"The earliest studies could only analyze segments of mtDNA, thus providing only broad correlations of affinity to modern 'West Eurasian' or 'East Eurasian' populations. For example, a 2002 study, the mitochondrial DNA of Saka period male and female skeletal remains from a double inhumation kurgan at the Beral site in Kazakhstan was analysed. The two individuals were found to be not closely related. The HV1 mitochondrial sequence of the male was similar to the Anderson sequence which is most frequent in European populations. On the other hand, the HV1 sequence of the female suggested a greater likelihood of Asian origins.

"More recent studies have been able to type for specific mtDNA lineages. For example, a 2004 study studied the HV1 sequence obtained from a male "Scytho-Siberian" at the Kizil site in the Altai Republic. It belonged to the N1a maternal lineage, a geographically "west Eurasian lineage." Another study by the same team, again from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic, were phenotypically males "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of "East Eurasian" populations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Y-DNA_and_mtDNA_studies

Most Scythian artefacts were found close to the black sea region - the areas where Greek colonists resided. Did you read the evidence I posted? :) Greeks crafting the majority of Scythian art available to us is universally accepted in academic literature, and they did it in Greek image with Greco-Scythian motives of natural world.

[Proto-Shaman]

Did I say somewhere, she was a Poless?
I said only, she was from Poland.
Born and raised here.

Btw, not only Olsejkos, but also a Gumbut kin
are quite well polonized family still living here.
Since when Vilnius is in Poland?
https://i.imgur.com/RXVE96o.png

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Gimbutas was a Baltic nationalist, who searched for European identity in Turkish culture.

She didn't. That is how Turks actually are experiencing her claims... Same as many Turkic sites claimed: "Klyosov adopt Indo-European Turkic heritage", but when you are asking him personally, it is another story...

[Rethel]

Since when Vilnius is in Poland?
https://i.imgur.com/RXVE96o.png

:picard2:

You are really so... special? :picard2:

When she was born and young it was in Poland.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Gimbutas was a Baltic nationalist, who searched for European identity in Turkish culture.

And...yes.. It is needed to be said that any European identity can not be related with Turkish culture, and especially language itself. Only some R1b languages could be connected with Turks. Basque for instance, since this language is agglutinative. Indo-European languages are not surely agglutinative as Turkic and Basque are.

[EdwardS]

Pontid+Volgid!

[Proto-Shaman]

:picard2:

You are really so... special? :picard2:

When she was born and young it was in Poland.
Cool, then Arabs and Balkanites are Turkic. Nice logic :rotfl:

[Proto-Shaman]

And...yes.. It is needed to be said that any European identity can not be related with Turkish culture, and especially language itself. Only some R1b languages could be connected with Turks. Basque for instance, since this language is agglutinative. Indo-European languages are not surely agglutinative as Turkic and Basque are.
You forgot Celto-Germanic tribes, they are the main R1b tribe and they are considered IE despite Celtic is agglutinative.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

You forgot Celto-Germanic tribes, they are the main R1b tribe and they are considered IE despite Celtic is agglutinative.

It's discussable how Celtic could be agglutinative.

[Pizdastratos]

And where you did read about it? On wikipedia? :picard1:
Do you really think, that in Poland was used lithuanian? :picard2:

Btw, even if she would be written in lithuanian, does
it proof, that she was from... the state of Lithuania? :picard2:

Well, in that case, your remark that she was from Poland looks just silly and doesn't make sense
Kipchak Håkan didn't mention she was from Lithuania. He called her Baltic, that's it.
It's like during the Polish literature discussion some Russian would storm into conversation with the statement "Adam Mickiewicz and Juliusz Słowacki were from Russia!"
Who cares

[Rethel]

Cool, then Arabs and Balkanites are Turkic. Nice logic :rotfl:

:bored:

:picard2:

[Rethel]

Well, in that case, your remark that she was from Poland looks just silly and doesn't make sense
Kipchak Håkan didn't mention she was from Lithuania. He called her Baltic, that's it.
It's like during the Polish literature discussion some Russian would storm into conversation with the statement "Adam Mickiewicz and Juliusz Słowacki were from Russia!"
Who cares

It is relevant, becasue she was not a representant of Lithuania,
and anyway, she came from quite polish family and later married
to probably polonized one. If she would participate in the Olympic
Games, she would be representing Poland, not Lithuania.

But I am not sure, what the side of her is more dominant: good one
or the bad one? For the case, better let she will be in Lithuanian team :laugh:

[Proto-Shaman]

:bored:

:picard2:
Do you have "everything is Polish" syndrome or are you just kidding?