Who are the purest Finno-Ugric people genetically?

[Joik]

Who are the purest Finno-Ugric people genetically?

[Leto]

Is there such a thing to begin with? Even their languages are extremely different from each other.

[EdwardS]

Udmurt!

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Probably Mari people.

[Stears]

Hungarians

:P

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Hungarians

:P

Hungarians are the least Finno-Ugric people, genetically speaking. They are the most western shifted and the least eastern shifted out of the Finno-Ugric populations samples.

[Finnish Swede]

Mordvins

http://toptours.info/w/u29/files/m21.jpg

[Jana]

Mordvins

http://toptours.info/w/u29/files/m21.jpg

They are genetically indistingushable from northern Russians :)

[LoLeL]

Mordvins

http://toptours.info/w/u29/files/m21.jpg

Their ethnonym tells another story.

[Finnish Swede]

They are genetically indistingushable from northern Russians :)

Voi voi!

[Finnish Swede]

Their ethnonym tells another story.

How?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Udmurts and Moksha!

[Pahli]

Finns and Estonians

[Harkonnen]

Finns and Estonians

This.

Rare allele sharing shows without doubt that purest Finno-Ugrians are found within the Baltic Finnic posse.



http://s019.radikal.ru/i609/1302/98/1cf99c4ddebd.png

https://s18.postimg.org/b3e036y95/estoniamordva.png


https://s18.postimg.org/njapwk1rd/ingrianmordva.png

[LoLeL]

How?

Maybe mixed with some Scythian tribes

[Stears]

The Finno-Ugric people in russia are heavily mixed with siberians and russians too

[Stears]

This.

Rare allele sharing shows without doubt that purest Finno-Ugrians are found within the Baltic Finnic posse.



http://s019.radikal.ru/i609/1302/98/1cf99c4ddebd.png

https://s18.postimg.org/b3e036y95/estoniamordva.png


https://s18.postimg.org/njapwk1rd/ingrianmordva.png

YOu have mixed with Skandinavians, so you are not ''the purest''

[Finnish Swede]

This.

Rare allele sharing shows without doubt that purest Finno-Ugrians are found within the Baltic Finnic posse.



http://s019.radikal.ru/i609/1302/98/1cf99c4ddebd.png

https://s18.postimg.org/b3e036y95/estoniamordva.png


https://s18.postimg.org/njapwk1rd/ingrianmordva.png

Some Russian Finno Ugric ethnics are missing or is it just my mobile (too small font)?

[Harkonnen]

The Finno-Ugric people in russia are heavily mixed with siberians and russians too

No they are not mixed with Siberians, they are mixed with Turks

https://s17.postimg.org/n6v05mkz3/altaiansaami.png
https://s18.postimg.org/5pf7vqvp5/saamibashkir.png

[Finnish Swede]

YOu have mixed with Skandinavians, so you are not ''the purest''

I think there are not absolutely pure ones anymore....just like with any
humans. Even ''the purest one'' is mixed someway.

[Harkonnen]

Some Russian Finno Ugric ethnics are missing or is it just my mobile (too small font)?

Font is not too small.

[Leto]

No they are not mixed with Siberians, they are mixed with Turks

Their East Eurasian component is overwhelmingly Siberian and their haplogroups are mostly Uralic as well.

[Mingle]

Probably Khanty-Mansis or Komis.

Least genetically Finno-Ugric people:

1. Hungarians
2. Baltic Finns

[Leto]

Probably Khanty-Mansis or Komis.

Least genetically Finno-Ugric people:

1. Hungarians
2. Baltic Finns
I think Khanty-Mansi absorbed a lot of non-Ugric Siberian blood. Nenets for example. However, Nenets/Samoyedic people are Uralic speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenets_languages) as well, I doubt they have any Turkic admixture. Original Turkic tribes were Mongolian-like by ancestry, which is South Siberian/Altaic.

Nenets #1

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 66.34
2 North_European 17.88
3 East_Asian 9.14
4 Gedrosia 5.45
5 South_Asian 0.98
6 Atlantic_Med 0.13

Nenets #2

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 67.02
2 North_European 18.48
3 East_Asian 8.38
4 Gedrosia 5.65
5 South_Asian 0.44

And now compare with Altais:

Altai #1

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 38.03
2 East_Asian 32.49
3 North_European 11.5
4 Gedrosia 8.59
5 Caucasus 3.72
6 Atlantic_Med 2.45
7 South_Asian 1.88
8 Southeast_Asian 1.2
9 East_African 0.14

Altai #2

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 37.35
2 Siberian 34.33
3 North_European 12.07
4 Gedrosia 8.08
5 Caucasus 3
6 Southeast_Asian 2
7 South_Asian 1.73
8 Atlantic_Med 1.44

As you can see, the East Asian (peaks in the Chinese) percentage is much higher in the Altai samples than in the Nenets ones. Southeast Asian (peaks in Vietnam and the neighboring countries) admixture is absent in the Nenets. Altai people are Turkic and they live in what is widely considered the proto-Turkic homeland.

[Mingle]

I think Khanty-Mansi absorbed a lot of non-Ugric Siberian blood. Nenets for example. However, Nenets/Samoyedic people are Uralic speakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenets_languages) as well, I doubt they have any Turkic admixture. Original Turkic tribes were Mongolian-like by ancestry, which is South Siberian/Altaic.

Nenets #1

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 66.34
2 North_European 17.88
3 East_Asian 9.14
4 Gedrosia 5.45
5 South_Asian 0.98
6 Atlantic_Med 0.13

Nenets #2

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 67.02
2 North_European 18.48
3 East_Asian 8.38
4 Gedrosia 5.65
5 South_Asian 0.44

And now compare with Altais:

Altai #1

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Siberian 38.03
2 East_Asian 32.49
3 North_European 11.5
4 Gedrosia 8.59
5 Caucasus 3.72
6 Atlantic_Med 2.45
7 South_Asian 1.88
8 Southeast_Asian 1.2
9 East_African 0.14

Altai #2

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 37.35
2 Siberian 34.33
3 North_European 12.07
4 Gedrosia 8.08
5 Caucasus 3
6 Southeast_Asian 2
7 South_Asian 1.73
8 Atlantic_Med 1.44

As you can see, the East Asian (peaks in the Chinese) percentage is much higher in the Altai samples than in the Nenets ones. Southeast Asian (peaks in Vietnam and the neighboring countries) admixture is absent in the Nenets. Altai people are Turkic and they live in what is widely considered the proto-Turkic homeland.

So who do you think are the purest Finno-Ugrics then?

[Leto]

So who do you think are the purest Finno-Ugrics then?
I don't know. Like I said, I'm not sure whether there are the purest ones to begin with. Even linguistically speaking the Finno-Ugric languages are a pretty damn loose category. I mean even Estonians cannot understand Finns well and the Volgaic and Permic languages are extremely different from the Baltic-Finnic ones.

The validity of Finno-Ugric as a genetic grouping is under challenge,[4] with some feeling that the Finno-Permic languages are as distinct from the Ugric languages as they are from the Samoyedic languages spoken in Siberia, or even that none of the Finno-Ugric, Finno-Permic, or Ugric branches has been established. Received opinion has been that the easternmost (and last-discovered) Samoyed had separated first and the branching into Ugric and Finno-Permic took place later, but this reconstruction does not have strong support in the linguistic data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages
They are more different from each other than Germanic, Romance and Slavic languages from each other.

[Peterski]

They are genetically indistingushable from northern Russians :)

Kargopol Russians are basically Slavicized Finno-Ugric people, as D-stats shows:

https://i.imgur.com/F3HXxIb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/F3HXxIb.jpg

[Rethel]

Yukagirs (if you put them in one group), Mansi, Kamasinians.

[Peterski]

Least genetically Finno-Ugric people:

1. Hungarians
2. Baltic Finns

Finns are very Finno-Ugric, but Estonians (like Hungarians) absorbed a lot of Indo-European ancestry. As for Finns, South-West Finns are mixed with Swedes, but other groups of Finns not so much.

[Leto]

This is presumably a Komi (not 100% sure but MDLP K16 identifies him as such):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_European 51.27
2 Siberian 16.08
3 Atlantic_Med 14
4 Caucasus 7.61
5 Gedrosia 7.48
6 East_Asian 2.33
7 Southeast_Asian 1.13
8 Southwest_Asian 0.11

And now compare with this quarter Kalmyk boy (his remaining ancestry is Russian and Ukrainian)

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_European 43.96
2 Atlantic_Med 20.05
3 East_Asian 10.91
4 Siberian 9.51
5 Caucasus 8.2
6 Gedrosia 4.12
7 Southwest_Asian 1.95
8 South_Asian 0.93
9 Southeast_Asian 0.38

[Peterski]

No they are not mixed with Siberians, they are mixed with Turks

Turks are partially Siberian themselves. :picard1:

[Porn Master]

Finno-Volgaic peoples, for example Mari

[Leto]

Kargopol Russians are basically Slavicized Finno-Ugric people, as D-stats shows:

My mom is fully Russian, both parents were Russian, but her first pop on various calculators is often Mordovians/Erzya. That was a big-ass surprise for me when I first run her on GEDmatch, lol.

[Peterski]

Finno-Volgaic peoples, for example Mari

I think that they have recent Mongoloid admixture, don't they? As do Khanty and Mansi.

[Peterski]

My mom is fully Russian, both parents were Russian, but her first pop on various calculators is often Mordovians/Erzya. That's a big-ass surprise for me when I first run her on GEDmatch, lol.

Which region of Russia?

BTW, you sent me that big package of Russian kit numbers long time ago. Did you manage to establish their regional origins? Russia is so big that there is no point in lumping all regions together.

[Leto]

I think that they have recent Mongoloid admixture, don't they? As do Khanty and Mansi.
How recent? Full-blooded Sami people are as much Mongoloid as Mari and Udmurts, if I'm not mistaken.

[Porn Master]

I think that they have recent Mongoloid admixture, don't they? As do Khanty and Mansi.



true Uralic people have Uralid phenotype, could be a branch of Mongoloid race but anyway this phenotype is pure among Uralics, the others have been assimilated with others non-Finno-Ugrics for centuries and they're less Finno-Ugric

[Peterski]

true Uralic people have Uralid phenotype, could be a branch of Mongoloid race but anyway this phenotype is pure among Uralics, the others have been assimilated with others non-Finno-Ugrics for centuries and they're less Finno-Ugric

I disagree I think that the original Finno-Ugric people were more like Mordvins.

But some groups like Khanty and Mansi later received extra Mongoloid admixture.

[Peterski]

How recent?

More recent than Finno-Ugric languages.

They mixed with some Mongoloid people who spoke different languages.

[Leto]

Which region of Russia?
Her parents were from Kirov oblast aka Vyatka.

BTW, you sent me that big package of Russian kit numbers long time ago. Did you manage to establish their regional origins? Russia is so big that there is no point in lumping all regions together.

I have a new list, now I tend to collect the kit numbers of people with identified geographic origins.

[Porn Master]

I disagree I think that the original Finno-Ugric people were more like Mordvins.

But some groups like Khanty and Mansi later received extra Mongoloid admixture.



xD

[Dragan Ciganovic]

Probably Polaks becsuse they have the most Mongoloid admixture. All Germans say "Polacks are mongoloids " , it's because many Polish women mated with Central Asian , Yakutian and Soviet Liberators after ww2.

Rethel and Peterski are good examples of mongoloid Polak toilet cleaners

[Harkonnen]

Their East Eurasian component is overwhelmingly Siberian and their haplogroups are mostly Uralic as well.

Russians have Central Asian Turkic admixture. This is a fact.

[Harkonnen]

Probably Khanty-Mansis or Komis.

Least genetically Finno-Ugric people:

1. Hungarians
2. Baltic Finns

Baltic Finns are most Finno-Ugric peoples. This is a fact.

[Harkonnen]

Finns are very Finno-Ugric, but Estonians (like Hungarians) absorbed a lot of Indo-European ancestry. As for Finns, South-West Finns are mixed with Swedes, but other groups of Finns not so much.

If you think Estonians have Indo-European blood, then how is it possible they share so little alleles with fex Lithuanians, Slavs and rest of North Europeans?

https://s18.postimg.org/b3e036y95/estoniamordva.png
https://s18.postimg.org/njapwk1rd/ingrianmordva.png

Pretty much all of North Europe shares more rare alleles with Mordva than Estonians do. This is because there is IE blood in Mordva but there is none in Estonians.

[Harkonnen]

No they are not mixed with Siberians, they are mixed with Turks

https://s17.postimg.org/n6v05mkz3/altaiansaami.png
https://s18.postimg.org/5pf7vqvp5/saamibashkir.png

If there is no Turkic admixture in Russia why do Ingrians share so little alleles with Altain Turkics and Bashkirs? Hell Ingrians are even less similar to Turkics than Estonians are!
And why do Estonians share more with Saami than Mordvins, Mari do?

The answer is really simple :)

[Demon Revival]

Pre-Proto-Uralic originated somewhere between Siberia and China. But the true diversification and current form began around the Volga and Urals (as can be attested by the highest variety of diversification, and numerical density of distinct families there). The pre-proto-Uralic were Manchurian-like people Eastern Non-Africans. Upon arriving in Urals and Volga these people interbred a lot with ANEs and other WHG-like components.


A genetic analysis of human bone remains dating back to 6500 to 2700 B.C. in the Liao area, Haplogroup N (Y-DNA) (frequently in Uralic peoples and Yakuts) was observed at 60-100% .[4] People of the Liao civilization possibly spoke Proto-Uralic language.

[Leto]

Russians have Central Asian Turkic admixture. This is a fact.
Very little, actually. Northern Russians have more mongoloid and in Vologda and Arkhangelsk there were no Tatars. But Volga Tatars are not very Turkic themselves to begin with. They are around 20% mongoloid on average and much of it is clearly Siberian, not East Asian.

[Harkonnen]

Pre-Proto-Uralic originated somewhere between Siberia and China. But the true diversification and current form began around the Volga and Urals (as can be attested by the highest variety of diversification, and numerical density of distinct families there). The pre-proto-Uralic were Manchurian-like people Eastern Non-Africans. Upon arriving in Urals and Volga these people interbred a lot with ANEs and other WHG-like components.

What the fuck is this pseudo-science? The Chinese N1c1 splitted from European N1c1 15 000 - 20 000 years ago, and it spread from west to east.

It looks that MRCA of an overwhelming majority of European N has lived at some time between 6,000 and 7,000 years ago.

Furthermore, according to YFull, N-M2028 and N-CTS3103/Z1954 share nine SNPs with each other that they do not share with N-Y9022, a more basal branch of N1c1. N-Y9022 has been found in at least one individual from Penza Oblast, Russia and another individual from the Komi Republic, Russia.

M2028 includes all Yakutian N1c1 and also the N1c1 found in Bhutan, but Y9022 means extant N1c1 with earliest divergence is from Eastern Europe and that clade places the MRCA of almost all European, Ob-Ugrian and Yakutian N to somewhat over 7000 years ago, location unknown, but most likely somewhere in the boarder regions East Europe and Central Asia.

[Harkonnen]

Very little, actually. Northern Russians have more mongoloid and in Vologda and Arkhangelsk there were no Tatars. But Volga Tatars are not very Turkic themselves to begin with. They are around 20% mongoloid on average and much of it is clearly Siberian, not East Asian.

You are wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say this to you before you get it. Russians have recent Turko-Mongolian admixture:

Among the northern Europeans, the Finnish (finni3) show evidence of an admixture event involving
a minority source most similar to contemporary North Siberians (469CE (213BCE-1011CE)). Finns are
thought to have originated from the northward migration, and subsequent contact, between Central Eu-
ropeans and indigenous Scandinavian hunter-gatherers closely related to the Saami [S?]. The Saami
are closely related to the individuals that make up the North Siberian world region, and whilst our con-
fidence in this admixture date is low because of the small size of the cluster, the event we see is likely
to represent this key period in Finnish history. Within our dataset, only the Finnish, Hungarians and
Mordovians speak Finno-Ugric languages, the latter of which we group into two clusters (mordo13: 792
(564-975CE); mordo2: 558 (179-843CE)) and, together with the Russians (russi25: 913(754-1007CE))
and Chuvash (chuva16: 829 (627-940CE)) populations, infer admixture at approximately the same time
(500-900CE) involving Mongolian, Central European, and Finnish donors. As such, the Asian admixture in
these groups is unlikely to be associated with the Mongolian expansion described above and may instead
be related to earlier Turkic movements, involving the Huns and Avars [S?], but separate to the event
inferred in the Finnish.

[Wrong]

Pre-Proto-Uralic originated somewhere between Siberia and China. But the true diversification and current form began around the Volga and Urals (as can be attested by the highest variety of diversification, and numerical density of distinct families there). The pre-proto-Uralic were Manchurian-like people Eastern Non-Africans. Upon arriving in Urals and Volga these people interbred a lot with ANEs and other WHG-like components.
This makes the most sense.

Thumbed up Albo brotha.

[Harkonnen]

You are wrong. I don't know how many times I have to say this to you before you get it. Russians have recent Turko-Mongolian admixture:

Among the northern Europeans, the Finnish (finni3) show evidence of an admixture event involving
a minority source most similar to contemporary North Siberians (469CE (213BCE-1011CE)). Finns are
thought to have originated from the northward migration, and subsequent contact, between Central Eu-
ropeans and indigenous Scandinavian hunter-gatherers closely related to the Saami [S?]. The Saami
are closely related to the individuals that make up the North Siberian world region, and whilst our con-
fidence in this admixture date is low because of the small size of the cluster, the event we see is likely
to represent this key period in Finnish history. Within our dataset, only the Finnish, Hungarians and
Mordovians speak Finno-Ugric languages, the latter of which we group into two clusters (mordo13: 792
(564-975CE); mordo2: 558 (179-843CE)) and, together with the Russians (russi25: 913(754-1007CE))
and Chuvash (chuva16: 829 (627-940CE)) populations, infer admixture at approximately the same time
(500-900CE) involving Mongolian, Central European, and Finnish donors. As such, the Asian admixture in
these groups is unlikely to be associated with the Mongolian expansion described above and may instead
be related to earlier Turkic movements, involving the Huns and Avars [S?], but separate to the event
inferred in the Finnish.

This picture shows the same thing

https://s18.postimg.org/5pf7vqvp5/saamibashkir.png

[Wrong]

What the fuck is this pseudo-science? The Chinese N1c1 splitted from European N1c1 15 000 - 20 000 years ago, and it spread from west to east.

It looks that MRCA of an overwhelming majority of European N has lived at some time between 6,000 and 7,000 years ago.

Furthermore, according to YFull, N-M2028 and N-CTS3103/Z1954 share nine SNPs with each other that they do not share with N-Y9022, a more basal branch of N1c1. N-Y9022 has been found in at least one individual from Penza Oblast, Russia and another individual from the Komi Republic, Russia.

M2028 includes all Yakutian N1c1 and also the N1c1 found in Bhutan, but Y9022 means extant N1c1 with earliest divergence is from Eastern Europe and that clade places the MRCA of almost all European, Ob-Ugrian and Yakutian N to somewhat over 7000 years ago, location unknown, but most likely somewhere in the boarder regions East Europe and Central Asia.
You're a snowmongol from the far east.

Better stop coping with psuedo-science that it came from the west. <- Big lol

[Voskos]

You're a snowmongol from the far east. Better stop coping with psuedo-science that it came from the west(LOL).

N1 is proto-Balkanigger Oase haplo.

[Wrong]

N1 is proto-Balkanigger Oase haplo.
:laugh:

[Leto]

As such, the Asian admixture in
these groups is unlikely to be associated with the Mongolian expansion described above and may instead
be related to earlier Turkic movements, involving the Huns and Avars [S?], but separate to the event
inferred in the Finnish.
Again, there were no Turkic people in the North and Northwest of Russia (Vologda, Komi republic, Arkhangelsk, Pskov, Novgorod, etc.).

Anyway, I understand where you're coming from. You just wanna disassociate your people from Russians. But that's beside the point in my opinion, 'cause I'm not trying to say Russians are Finns (as in Finland) or steal your heritage. In fact, I'd rather group you with Scandinavians than with us based on geography, culture and looks. However, that doesn't mean that Russia has no Uralic influence, which it certainly does and to a very significant extent. It's the dubious term 'Finnic/Finno-Ugric' that leads people to associate Russians and Finns too much.

[travv]

Khanty and Mansi without a doubt. They are the core of Uralic race in its pure form.

[Jana]

Perhaps Mari. They always have most distinctive results and least Balto-Slavic and Turkic influence from tests I ran.

[Jana]

Khanty and Mansi without a doubt. They are the core of Uralic race in its pure form.

They are too mixed with non FU Siberians and too Mongoloid. Russian expansion pushed them east and they mixed with Siberians.

[Token]

No one can really answer this question. Proto-Uralic speakers were a mixture of East Eurasians, EHG and WSHG, but we don't know the exact proportions. Surely not any of the Finno-Ugric speaking Europeans though.

[Harkonnen]

No one can really answer this question. Proto-Uralic speakers were a mixture of East Eurasians, EHG and WSHG, but we don't know the exact proportions. Surely not any of the Finno-Ugric speaking Europeans though.

The first N1c1 Tarandians in early Iron Age Estonia were genetically less East Asian/Siberian than modern Estonians. It had very large EHG/WSHG component. In this sense I'm not so sure. So basically people who brought Uralic to Baltia were genetically less East Asian than modern Finnics, in that sense you could make claim that Finnics are closest.

[Ülev]

Laagids

[Aren]

Davidski has intel on proto-Uralic genomes who should be published soon. They are apparently very Nganasan-like with no WSHG admixture.

[Harkonnen]

Davidski has intel on proto-Uralic genomes who should be published soon. They are apparently very Nganasan-like with no WSHG admixture.

I have heard that Davidski has made this sort of claim. However, Davidski is a conman with zero credibility, so lets wait and see what this paper is about; are we talking here about,Y9022 or Y24317? Where and when exactly? My sources tell me that this paper is not informative what comes to Proto-Uralic.

If I'm not mistaken he is talking about some sample found in Baikal or somewhere very North Siberia ("western shifted Nganasan") which he then ad hoc decided is "proto-Uralic" because it fits his narrative. Last N1c1 they found in Baikal didn't even belong to Uralic Y9022

[Token]

The first N1c1 Tarandians in early Iron Age Estonia were genetically less East Asian/Siberian than modern Estonians. It had very large EHG/WSHG component. In this sense I'm not so sure. So basically people who brought Uralic to Baltia were genetically less East Asian than modern Finnics, in that sense you could make claim that Finnics are closest.
Tarandians were clearly mostly native to the Baltic and i can prove that.

[Harkonnen]

Tarandians were clearly mostly native to the Baltic and i can prove that.

Genetically something like 80% Bronze Age Estonia (genetically extreme HG) and 20% Sintasha outlier. But according to isotopes of non local origin, and I think they also checked isotopes that it wasn't from Finland or Sweden either. This clearly proves in those times there existed genetic area from Baltia to much further to East which had nothing to do with either Corded Ware or Scythians.

[Harkonnen]

You're a snowmongol from the far east.

Better stop coping with psuedo-science that it came from the west. <- Big lol

I'm just going to quote myself from this other thread

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?306401-Haplogroup-C-M401-among-Mongols&p=6672098&highlight=#post6672098


Before you put origin of Uralic languages (and N1c1) in Manchuria, let's remember that Chinese clade of N1c1, N-F2905, has TMRCA of 16 000 years and split from Uralic N1c1, N-L729, 18 000 years ago. As far as I know those early N1c1 cultures in North East China fall under N-F2905. You can't find Chinese N1c1 among Uralics, and you can't find Uralic N1c1 among Chinese. Under this information, it would be quite strange to deduct origin of Uralic languages to those early Chinese cultures mentioned in this thread, especially when not a single linguist has ever done this. https://www.yfull.com/tree/N/

The subclade of N1c1 which was found in Avars is pretty much nonexistant in Uralics, so I very much doubt they were Uralics.

What comes to origin of N-M178 in Manchuria, I would not be so certain about that. I guess its still possibility, but if I would put it in China, I think Northwest China would be more plausible. Personally for a long time I've thought that Central Asia (or maybe Southern Siberia) looks much more plausible, if you've look how the different descendant lineages are spread out, it really is not that China centric. You already mentioned N1a2a-M128 of Botai culture from Kazakstan which today is found only as minor lineage in the Balkans. Also when you take into account that Chinese N1c1 is not ancestral, but rather brother lineage to Siberian and European lineages, I don't see what reason there is to put the origin categorically to Manchuria. The fact that early NO types have been found in Siberia and East Europe also speak little bit for this, though those men lived so long ago, that they don't necessarily have much to do with original dispersals of N-M178.


and here is what SUPERSMART CHINESE POSTER SAID ABOUT IT:


Other than that, regarding N-M128, I generally agree more with Harkonnen. N-F2905 aka N-F2930 split from Uralic N1c a very long time ago, and the Avars couldn't have been Uralic because their subclades of N as I quoted earlier belonged to that of the Yakuts and Buryats, not the Uralic peoples.

N-M178 on the other hand is largely centered around Kazakhstan.


SO THE SUPERSMART CHINESE GUY AGREES WITH HARKONNEN

FURTHERMORE, FROM https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31195-8


While we did not carefully model present-day Europeans in our main admixture graph, we did build an extended graph with French added (25 individuals). A good fit was obtained with four ancestry components, related to western (K14), northern (near the base of the MA1 lineage), and eastern (specified as the same source as for MA1) Eurasians, plus Basal Eurasian (specified without Neanderthal introgression; Lazaridis et al. 2016). The inferred proportions were 27.7%, 34.9%, 23.2%, and 14.2%, respectively, with essentially no change in the list of residuals. We note that these sources do not represent the proximal ancestral populations of present-day Europeans (Lazaridis et al. 2014; Haak et al. 2015), and this fit also may not be the optimal one, but it does provide a sense of the relationships of Europeans to the major lineages defined in our model.

Lastly, we also briefly studied two other ancient European lineages. First, we built a version of our model with WHG in place of MA1 and found that it fit in a similar fashion (majority component of WHG’s ancestry as a sister group to K14, plus eastern Eurasian gene flow). Second, we fit an expanded graph with MA1, K14, and the early modern human Oase 1 (Fu et al. 2015). Because of possible contamination, we used the published damage-restricted data, which reduced the set of SNPs with coverage in all populations to ∼28k. The inferred graph was similar overall, with modest changes due to the smaller set of SNPs. Oase 1 was inferred to diverge from the western Eurasian (K14) lineage, slightly later than Ust’-Ishim (shared drift 1.6), but still close to the split of the eastern and western clades. As shown in Fu et al. (2015), Oase 1 has a significant excess of Neanderthal ancestry, which we inferred at 8.3% in the extended model.

AND

https://i.imgur.com/dCvHLRh.png

I REST MY CASE. IN ALL POSSIBLE OUTCOMES I WIN.

[Chris596]

Well I think I'm one of the least Uralic Uralic speaker.

[Benyzero]

Well I think I'm one of the least Uralic Uralic speaker.

Türkmen Turkmanovic, uralic leader, affiliation : pontid

[Aren]

Tarandians were clearly mostly native to the Baltic and i can prove that.
The oldest N1c male was 5.6% Nganasan according to the qpAdm run from the original study. I think that's more than what modern day Estonians score.

I have heard that Davidski has made this sort of claim. However, Davidski is a conman with zero credibility, so lets wait and see what this paper is about; are we talking here about,Y9022 or Y24317? Where and when exactly? My sources tell me that this paper is not informative what comes to Proto-Uralic.

If I'm not mistaken he is talking about some sample found in Baikal or somewhere very North Siberia ("western shifted Nganasan") which he then ad hoc decided is "proto-Uralic" because it fits his narrative. Last N1c1 they found in Baikal didn't even belong to Uralic Y9022

I'm confident Davidski wouldn't make such a bold statement if he wasn't certain. Also If I'm not misstaken these so called proto-Uralic genomes aren't from lake Baikal but further NW in the forest zone. But yes I suspect this new paper won't be the end of the debate on proto-Uralic.

Anyone remember what happend to that paper on early medieval Hungarian royals? What subclade of N1c did they belong to and how much ENA did they carry?

[Token]

The oldes N1c male was 5.6% Nganasan according to the apAdm run from the original study. I think that's more than what modern day Estonians score.?
Modern Estonians score around 2% iirc.
I doubt Proto-Uralic speakers were even mostly Nganassan-like. It is definitely the tracer dye, the signal that stands out the most, but it doesn't tell us anything about how Proto-Uralics really looked like.

[Harkonnen]

The oldes N1c male was 5.6% Nganasan according to the apAdm run from the original study. I think that's more than what modern day Estonians score.

It is pretty obvious Iron Age samples had less Nganasan affinity than modern Estonians:

result: Yorubas Nganasans EstBA Latvians 0.000567 2.81 31833 31560 480932
result: Yorubas Nganasans EstIA EstBA -0.00067 -2.584 26508 26783 409486
Latvian and Tarandians have similar affinity to Nganasan

Also

result: Yorubas EstIA : Estonians Latvians 0.0043 3.674
So Tarandians are genetically closer to Latvians than to Estonians. This means Proto-Finnic Tarandians had equal level Siberian affinity with Latvians.

That 5.6% is likely some nonsense results like Haaks fittings giving Scottish people 4% Nganasan, just some artefact of ANE etc based components fitted there.

This looks much more sensible result:

Result of OLS10, Early Finnic from Estonia

Baltic_EST_IA_0LS10
Baltic_EST_BA 0.826±0.045
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1 0.174±0.045
chisq 12.527
tail prob 0.564048
Full output

So like said 80% BA, 20% Sintasha outlier.


I'm confident Davidski wouldn't make such a bold statement if he wasn't certain. Also If I'm not misstaken these so called proto-Uralic genomes aren't from lake Baikal but further NW in the forest zone. But yes I suspect this new paper won't be the end of the debate on proto-Uralic.




He might genuinely be certain but he's also pretty clueless. Anyway, there was indeed some N1c1 sample from West Siberia and it could be indeed that sample which the Pole is talking about. But in any case even if it is that, and it is what he says it is, it really has no much effect on my case.


Anyone remember what happend to that paper on early medieval Hungarian royals? What subclade of N1c did they belong to and how much ENA did they carry?


I'm not sure if we are talking about same paper, but on that paper which I took a look, all of the N guys were marked as fully European genetically, but that paper also looked very suspicious, and results not very trustworthy (what was the method?). I have also wondered why none of the samples have become public accesss.

[Harkonnen]

Modern Estonians score around 2% iirc.
I doubt Proto-Uralic speakers were even mostly Nganassan-like. It is definitely the tracer dye, the signal that stands out the most, but it doesn't tell us anything about how Proto-Uralics really looked like.

Quite seriously now, I think that the Sintasha outlier is the steak of the meal. Interestingly they also found Przewalski’s horse y-dna from the horses found in Tarand graves. Przewalski’s horse was of course also the horse of Botai culture, and it seems Botai is somehow linked with Sintasha outliers.

Finnhorse is also only domesticated horse to be genetically related to Przewalski’s horse


Interestingly, two of the haplotypes identified in the Finnhorses belong to haplogroup F, which is present in the Przewalski’s horse (Equus przewalskii). A Blast search against GenBank for these Finnhorse sequences also resulted in best matches with the Przewalski’s horse sequences (e: 0.0, identity: 626–627/630 bp).


Interestingly, haplogroup F, which so far was detected only in the Przewalski’s horse, was present in four of the Finnhorses analysed here, of which three were not included in any of the breeding sections and one was registered as a riding horse. To date, haplogroup F has not been found in any modern horse breed, which is unexpected since it was recently suggested that the Przewalski’s horse, the only extant wild horse species, is derived from the early domestic horses of the Botai culture. This result contradicted the findings of previous studies that have placed the Przewalski’s horse as a sister taxon of domestic horses, with some possible gene flow from the domestic horse to the Przewalski’s horse. The existence of the Przewalski haplogroup F in the Finnhorse, if verified by sequencing whole mitogenomes, may reveal surprising events in the domestication history of the horse.

[Aren]

I don't think it's pretty obvious at all that they have less ENA than modern Estonians.

Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
Distance: 3.5670% / 0.03567039
71.6 Baltic_EST_BA
15.6 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
8.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
4.0 Nganassan

Target: Estonian
Distance: 1.6381% / 0.01638149
59.4 Baltic_EST_BA
38.6 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
2.0 Nganassan


Davidski also mentioned that the lack of WSHG in Finns and Estonians is one crucial evidence to proto-Uralics not having much or any of it.

[Lemminkäinen]

The oldest N1c male was 5.6% Nganasan according to the qpAdm run from the original study. I think that's more than what modern day Estonians score.




This is not true, the oldest N1c was about 60% Siberian, if represented by Nganasans. Following ancient and present-day distributions we can say that N1c came from north around 4000-5000 years ago. The western part diverged into subclades, VL29 3500BP and Finnish clades 3700 BP

[Token]

I don't think it's pretty obvious at all that they have less ENA than modern Estonians.

Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
Distance: 3.5670% / 0.03567039
71.6 Baltic_EST_BA
15.6 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
8.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
4.0 Nganassan

Target: Estonian
Distance: 1.6381% / 0.01638149
59.4 Baltic_EST_BA
38.6 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
2.0 Nganassan


Davidski also mentioned that the lack of WSHG in Finns and Estonians is one crucial evidence to proto-Uralics not having much or any of it.

PU seems to have had a lot more EHG than WSHG but there is some WSHG-related ancestry in BOO, Levanluhta and Tarand. So Finns have it too since they can be modelled as part Levanluhta.

[Aren]

This is not true, the oldest N1c was about 60% Siberian, if represented by Nganasans. Following ancient and present-day distributions we can say that N1c came from north around 4000-5000 years ago. The western part diverged into subclades, VL29 3500BP and Finnish clades 3700 BP

Oldest male from the Tarand graves. We can't be sure that the Bolshoy genomes we're Uralic speakers.

[Harkonnen]

This is not true, the oldest N1c was about 60% Siberian, if represented by Nganasans. Following ancient and present-day distributions we can say that N1c came from north around 4000-5000 years ago. The western part diverged into subclades, VL29 3500BP and Finnish clades 3700 BP

You are a delusional fool. It is pretty obvious those horses and men with ancestry from Przewalski horse did not come from Kola.

[Harkonnen]

PU seems to have had a lot more EHG than WSHG but there is some WSHG-related ancestry in BOO, Levanluhta and Tarand. So Finns have it too since they can be modelled as part Levanluhta.

There is not much difference between EHG and WSHG so its not surprise these programs mix these concepts. Anyway Finns can be modelled with extra EHG I guess. Davidski is just desperate, does not matter what that dude says.

[Harkonnen]

This is not true, the oldest N1c was about 60% Siberian, if represented by Nganasans. Following ancient and present-day distributions we can say that N1c came from north around 4000-5000 years ago. The western part diverged into subclades, VL29 3500BP and Finnish clades 3700 BP

We all know you are butthurt about the well known alpha N1c1 domination in the north, that is why you are obsessed on that Kola, to try desperately prove Finnish language and culture did not originate with N1c1 men.

[Token]

It is pretty obvious Iron Age samples had less Nganasan affinity than modern Estonians:

result: Yorubas Nganasans EstBA Latvians 0.000567 2.81 31833 31560 480932
result: Yorubas Nganasans EstIA EstBA -0.00067 -2.584 26508 26783 409486
Latvian and Tarandians have similar affinity to Nganasan
Only one of the Iron Age samples show unambiguous eastern admixture. And the case for Nganasan admixture in this Latvian set isn't really strong based on this stat.

[Lemminkäinen]

Oldest male from the Tarand graves. We can't be sure that the Bolshoy genomes we're Uralic speakers.

But we can't be sure that original Uralic speakers belonged to N1c or even to N*, because no ancient N1c is found in the assumed urheimat areas of Uralic speakers. It is possible that people moving from the east with the Tat-mutation and spoke Altaic or Sino-Tibetan languages and changed to Uralic near the Volga river only around 3000 years ago.

[Lemminkäinen]

You are a delusional fool. It is pretty obvious those horses and men with ancestry from Przewalski horse did not come from Kola.

Hold your horses broadskull.

[Lemminkäinen]

We all know you are butthurt about the well known alpha N1c1 domination in the north, that is why you are obsessed on that Kola, to try desperately prove Finnish language and culture did not originate with N1c1 men.

The Finnish language belongs to the Baltic-Finnic languages, in the northern branch and originates from Estonia. It is only 1500 years old. You can read my approach in my answer to Aren.

[Lemminkäinen]

Quite seriously now, I think that the Sintasha outlier is the steak of the meal. Interestingly they also found Przewalski’s horse y-dna from the horses found in Tarand graves. Przewalski’s horse was of course also the horse of Botai culture, and it seems Botai is somehow linked with Sintasha outliers.

Finnhorse is also only domesticated horse to be genetically related to Przewalski’s horse

If I recall right Sintasha outliers belonged to HG Q.

[Harkonnen]

I don't think it's pretty obvious at all that they have less ENA than modern Estonians.

Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
Distance: 3.5670% / 0.03567039
71.6 Baltic_EST_BA
15.6 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
8.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1
4.0 Nganassan

Target: Estonian
Distance: 1.6381% / 0.01638149
59.4 Baltic_EST_BA
38.6 SWE_Ollsjo_BA
2.0 Nganassan


Davidski also mentioned that the lack of WSHG in Finns and Estonians is one crucial evidence to proto-Uralics not having much or any of it.

This all goes back to genetics being part astrology which was discussed earlier. Much depends on the method and used references. In the original paper nganasan ancestry was largely effect for Yamna being the only eastern most reference apart ngags (no EHG, WSHG etc).

Here is another fitting:
0.3563881 % Tajik_Yagnobi
0.28572705 % TKM_Geoksiur_Eneolithic
4.3541408 % RUS_West_Siberia_N
0.26709375 % Evenk
94.73665 % Baltic_EST_IA
/ 0.13571382 Baltic_EST_IA:0LS10_1 N1c-Z1926

[Harkonnen]

https://i.imgur.com/pE3a4QV.jpg

pronksiaeg = Bronze Age
rauaaeg = Iron Age
keskaeg = Middle Age
nöör-keraamika = Corder Ware

kivikirstkalmetest välja kaevatud pronksiaegsed indiviidid olid
kuttide-korilastega ja samuti tänapäeva eestlastega oluliseld
sarnasemad kui nöörkeraamika kultuuri esindajad.
Veelgi enam sarnanesid tänapäeva eestlastega aga tarandkalmetest
pärinevad rauaaegsed indiviidid. Seega vöime tänaste eestlaste
geneetilise pärandi puhul rääkida selgest järjepidevusest juba
vähemasti rauajast alates.


Bronze-aged individuals excavated were more
likely to be more similar to hunter-gathererss and contemporary Estonians
than to representatives of the Corded Ware culture.
Yet even more modern Estonians were similar to iron-age individuals
from Tarandian graves . Thus, in the case of the genetic heritage of
today's Estonians, we can speak of clear continuity from at least Iron
Age.

[Lemminkäinen]

https://i.imgur.com/pE3a4QV.jpg

pronksiaeg = Bronze Age
rauaaeg = Iron Age
keskaeg = Middle Age
nöör-keraamika = Corder Ware

kivikirstkalmetest välja kaevatud pronksiaegsed indiviidid olid
kuttide-korilastega ja samuti tänapäeva eestlastega oluliseld
sarnasemad kui nöörkeraamika kultuuri esindajad.
Veelgi enam sarnanesid tänapäeva eestlastega aga tarandkalmetest
pärinevad rauaaegsed indiviidid. Seega vöime tänaste eestlaste
geneetilise pärandi puhul rääkida selgest järjepidevusest juba
vähemasti rauajast alates.


Bronze-aged individuals excavated were more
likely to be more similar to hunter-gathererss and contemporary Estonians
than to representatives of the Corded Ware culture.
Yet even more modern Estonians were similar to iron-age individuals
from Tarandian graves . Thus, in the case of the genetic heritage of
today's Estonians, we can speak of clear continuity from at least Iron
Age.

BA Estonians belonged to R1a and most of them still during Iron Age (>80%?). Excluding IA outliers with higher Siberian all IA Estonians belonged to the same genetic cluster regardless of the haplogroup.

[Aren]

It's interesting that the Estonian_BA genomes have the extreme Balto-Slavic drift. I wouldn't expect a Balto-Slavic population in Estonia so early on.

[Token]

It's interesting that the Estonian_BA genomes have the extreme Balto-Slaivc drift. I wouldn't expect a Balto-Slavic population in Estonia so early on.
I can think of only two scenarios to explain this drift such a small period of time: high rates of consaguineous mating due to small effective population size, or Estonia BA came from somewhere else.

[Harkonnen]

The Finnish language belongs to the Baltic-Finnic languages, in the northern branch and originates from Estonia. It is only 1500 years old. You can read my approach in my answer to Aren.

You have to be biggest dumbass in the face of the planet. Baltic-Finnish language is the realm of N1c1, especially Northern Finnic, originating in South West Finland is the realm of N1c1. I know there was also R1a1 in Estonia, but it is pretty clear, that whatever reason, it seems to be mainly N1c1 men taking the boat ride across Baltic Sea. This can be seen in both modern Finnish y-dna, and from ancient dna yields from proto-Finnish sites in Western Finland, where in both excavated sites, Eura and Tolppolanmäki, only N1c1 has been found. Since I know you start know some esoteric rant how this N1c1 doesn't count as real N1c1 because it was Western Finnish N1c1 and not Eastern Finnish N1c1, I can tell you, that at least in Tavastia, the N1c1 was exactly Savokarelian N1c1, and if I remember correctly correctly also in Eura, but have to check.

Bottom line. Your ancestors whether they were Saami or something other (possibly Germanic?? Celtic?? I dunno) bowed to Harkonnens, and that is why you speak Finnish today.
Your ancestors KNELT to HARKONNENS, THIS IS THE SHAME YOU HAVE TO LIVE FOR THE REST OF YOUR MISERABLE LIFE

[Token]

The Proto-Uralic homeland is of utmost interest for me because Germanic is nothing more than the result of Balto-Finns trying to speak Indo-European, and Verner's law is a shameless copy of Finnic rhytmic gradation.

[Jana]

Harkonnen, are you sure you are N1c? Imagine you turn out I1, would you consider suicide? :P

[Jana]

Or even worse, R1/a/b xD

[Benyzero]

Harkonnen, are you sure you are N1c? Imagine you turn out I1, would you consider suicide? :P

Ev13 lol

[vbnetkhio]

It's interesting that the Estonian_BA genomes have the extreme Balto-Slavic drift. I wouldn't expect a Balto-Slavic population in Estonia so early on.

Estonia BA is just a mix of Corded Ware, GAC and Narva. they aren't drifted towards Balto-Slavs, Balto-Slavs formed at this same time as a mix of these same components.

[Aren]

Estonia BA is just a mix of Corded Ware, GAC and Narva. they aren't drifted towards Balto-Slavs, Balto-Slavs formed at this same time as a mix of these same components.

They are the most drifted Balto-Slavic population together with Latvia_BA. To be clear, Balto-Slavic drift is most extreme in modern day Latvians and Lithuanians and BA genomes from the Baltic countries were even more so drifted.

The Estonia BA samples also belonged to typically Balto-Slavic clades of M417 so they were in all likelihood proto Balto-Slavic speakers

[Lemminkäinen]

You have to be biggest dumbass in the face of the planet. Baltic-Finnish language is the realm of N1c1, especially Northern Finnic, originating in South West Finland is the realm of N1c1. I know there was also R1a1 in Estonia, but it is pretty clear, that whatever reason, it seems to be mainly N1c1 men taking the boat ride across Baltic Sea. This can be seen in both modern Finnish y-dna, and from ancient dna yields from proto-Finnish sites in Western Finland, where in both excavated sites, Eura and Tolppolanmäki, only N1c1 has been found. Since I know you start know some esoteric rant how this N1c1 doesn't count as real N1c1 because it was Western Finnish N1c1 and not Eastern Finnish N1c1, I can tell you, that at least in Tavastia, the N1c1 was exactly Savokarelian N1c1, and if I remember correctly correctly also in Eura, but have to check.

Bottom line. Your ancestors whether they were Saami or something other (possibly Germanic?? Celtic?? I dunno) bowed to Harkonnens, and that is why you speak Finnish today.
Your ancestors KNELT to HARKONNENS, THIS IS THE SHAME YOU HAVE TO LIVE FOR THE REST OF YOUR MISERABLE LIFE

Common N1c for Southwestern Finns and Estonians diverged from VL29 and they are VL29+ while Finnish N1c is VL29-. The bifurgation between common Estonian and common Finnish/Karelian clades occurred 4500 years ago and 3000 years before the Finnish language. I am quite sure that Finnish/Karelian clades adapted Saami before adapting Finnic.

[vbnetkhio]

They are the most drifted Balto-Slavic population together with Latvia_BA. To be clear, Balto-Slavic drift is most extreme in modern day Latvians and Lithuanians and BA genomes from the Baltic countries were even more so drifted.

The Estonia BA samples also belonged to typically Balto-Slavic clades of M417 so they were in all likelihood proto Balto-Slavic speakers

well yeah, they were the proto-Balto-Slavis, or something very closely related, not drifted towards Balto-Slavs.

[Harkonnen]

Bronze Age Estonians cluster outside modern populations on all pcas I've seen. Even on that pic I posted the Iron Age sample looked closer modern regular euro. From what I now BA Estonians had different burial practises to southern Baltic BAs, tho of course genetically similar. Even skull type was different.

[Harkonnen]

Common N1c for Southwestern Finns and Estonians diverged from VL29 and they are VL29+ while Finnish N1c is VL29-. The bifurgation between common Estonian and common Finnish/Karelian clades occurred 4500 years ago and 3000 years before the Finnish language. I am quite sure that Finnish/Karelian clades adapted Saami before adapting Finnic.

For the millionth time, the same esoteric ramble. Did you not read what I wrote, they literally found the East Finnish type from those West Finnish graves so how the hell can you still ramble against facts. Even the OLS10 from Estonia we have been talking about belonged to East Finnish clade.

In the only paper I've read that had Saami samples, the Saami N1c1 was deciphered under VL29+, so they have West Finnish clades också

https://i.imgur.com/K0Y8Ltw.png

Bottom line is this YOU ARE A DOG SPEAKING HARKONNEN LANGUAGE

[Finnish Swede]

Lemminkäinen & Harkonnen?

How about Finnish family names ending with -vuori? Are those also typical for East Finns?

At least motorcycle road racer Teuvo Länsivuori was from Iisalmi.

''Uncle Jammu'' ... family name Siltavuori was from Kuopio.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Jammu1MH_uu.jpg/250px-Jammu1MH_uu.jpg

[Harkonnen]

https://i.imgur.com/Y3lEnlr.jpg

Teuvo is East Finnish. Jammu has West Finnish origin.

[Lemminkäinen]

For the millionth time, the same esoteric ramble. Did you not read what I wrote, they literally found the East Finnish type from those West Finnish graves so how the hell can you still ramble against facts. Even the OLS10 from Estonia we have been talking about belonged to East Finnish clade.

In the only paper I've read that had Saami samples, the Saami N1c1 was deciphered under VL29+, so they have West Finnish clades också

https://i.imgur.com/K0Y8Ltw.png

Bottom line is this YOU ARE A DOG SPEAKING HARKONNEN LANGUAGE

Only one of those Saag et al. 2019 samples belonging to N was East Finnish snd it was the one with high Siberian (0LS10). As far as I know Finnish researchers have not revealed clades of Luistari samples. They only wrote that samples belonged to N-haplogroup. If you have more information, please quote the source with link.

[Lemminkäinen]

Lemminkäinen & Harkonnen?

How about Finnish family names ending with -vuori? Are those also typical for East Finns?

At least motorcycle road racer Teuvo Länsivuori was from Iisalmi.

''Uncle Jammu'' ... family name Siltavuori was from Kuopio.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Jammu1MH_uu.jpg/250px-Jammu1MH_uu.jpg

Environmental names, like *vuori*, are usually so called fennomanic names given around 100 years ago. We can't conclude the origin without genealogical data.

[Melki]

The Finns

Zey wuz khanz

https://zupimages.net/up/20/38/s1i0.png (https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=20/38/s1i0.png)

[Lemminkäinen]

Harkonnen, fyi:

Saami living area is western compared to East Finns, so it is understandable that they have more western haplogroups, like N-VL29 and I1. East Finns are a remnant of people who lived in northern Fennoscandinavian forests, diluted later with West Finnish and Baltic admixtures. East Finnish and Karelian lineages descend straight from ancient Kola people. Unfortunately this topic is ruined by some Finnish researchers who are stupid enough to head all their genetic projects by linguistic frameworks. They don't speak about Finnish genes, but Ugric genes (Sugrige project, even this spelled wrong, should Sugric, Fugric or Sugri*, anyway sheer idiocy ). Then their Finno-Ugric study covers samples from five Finnish places!

Btw, the Sugrige result about Luistari yDna is removed everywhere, I can't find it any more.

[Östsvensk]

Ingrians :p

Mongolian fold

% no fold at all

100

Source: Estonian anthropologist Karin Mark

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/statystyki-krajow-regionow-populacji/europa/ludy-ugrofinskie-antropologia-fizyczna#uwagi-do-danych-w-tabeli-2 (in Polish)

[Chris596]

~2% of me is purely Finno Ugric, this has been proven many times so far.

[Lemminkäinen]

Ingrians :p

Mongolian fold

% no fold at all

100

Source: Estonian anthropologist Karin Mark

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/statystyki-krajow-regionow-populacji/europa/ludy-ugrofinskie-antropologia-fizyczna#uwagi-do-danych-w-tabeli-2 (in Polish)

Hard to believe, although Ingrians are fully of East Finnish ancestry.

[Lemminkäinen]

~2% of me is purely Finno Ugric, this has been proven many times so far.

Do you have genealogical data or any explanation of the origin?

[Lemminkäinen]

The Finns

Zey wuz khanz

https://zupimages.net/up/20/38/s1i0.png (https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=20/38/s1i0.png)



https://images.almatalent.fi/cx53,cy0,cw893,ch669,570x/https://assets.almatalent.fi/image/d7b4f8bd-7614-5926-b6ce-860185826d62

[Chris596]

Do you have genealogical data or any explanation of the origin?

Well, nothing except the theory about the origin of the Hungarians. And the possible connection with Finno Ugric peoples through language mostly. Of course this is a very questionable theory until this day (if we exclude the language-theory).

This is, if I think about my mom. My father is a separate case because he considers himself the descendant of the Huns. Which can be true I think. (he is Szekely Hungarian) FTDNA gave me Northeast and Southeast Asia as a trace result.
Also many Admixture Softwares assign some Chinese/Mongolian or something similar to me. So I think the Hun origin of the Szekelys is true.

[Finnish Swede]

Environmental names, like *vuori*, are usually so called fennomanic names given around 100 years ago. We can't conclude the origin without genealogical data.


Are -la/lä ending Finns family names originally from west? Häkkinen opposite (who seemed to be here much more famous/important via his looks than his skills as F1 driver ... LOL) has typical East Finn family name (-nen)? Am I right?

[Lemminkäinen]

Are -la/lä ending Finns family names originally from west? Häkkinen opposite (who seemed to be here much more famous/important via his looks than his skills as F1 driver ... LOL) has typical East Finn family name (-nen)? Am I right?

Häkkinen is an East Finnish name. Their family lived in Martinlaakso, Vantaa, but obviously his parents or grandparents are from the east. Martinlaakso is a typical suburb where rural people moved during the 60s.

Names with la- lä-endings are typical West Finnish. In the west people had patronymes before the 20th century and when surnames became obligatory people started to use house names. House names were obligatory from the beginning of the Swedish era for taxation reasons.

[travv]

Perhaps Proto-Uralics were neither Europeoids nor Mongoloids but something undifferentiated type close to modern West Siberians.

[Finnish Swede]

https://images.almatalent.fi/cx53,cy0,cw893,ch669,570x/https://assets.almatalent.fi/image/d7b4f8bd-7614-5926-b6ce-860185826d62


Another ''Finn'' .... same ways double time World Champion (Ralley driver).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Marcus_Gr%C3%B6nholm.jpg/1200px-Marcus_Gr%C3%B6nholm.jpg


Now older days with her daughter:
https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/468/0587a77581364850afa10db8d787f143.jpg

https://images.fashionmodeldirectory.com/model/000000379981-johanna_gronholm-fit.jpg

Unlikely Häkkinen, ''Bosse'' and his family are Finnish Swedes.

[Finnish Swede]

Deleted ... double post.

[Harkonnen]

Mika Häkkinen suffers from facial paralysis. This is why he has that crooked mouth and permanent squint. It is pretty obvious this condition has changed his facial shape considerably as years have passed by



Mika Hakkinen
As he was heading into the Turn 8 flick at Adelaide during qualifying for the 1995 Australian Grand Prix, a deflating rear-left Goodyear caused Mika Hakkinen to lose control of his McLaren MP4/10. He hit the concrete wall, protected by just a single layer of tyres, hard, his head rag-dolling around in the cockpit, smacking the steering wheel and knocking Hakkinen out. With the Finn’s jaw locked shut and his face starting to turn the colour of the Finnish-blue siniristilippu stripes on his helmet, emergency workers performed a trackside tracheotomy that undoubtedly saved his life.

With a fractured skull and damage to his inner ear, the Finn then began an agonising winter break. Owing to nerve damage, his eyes had to be taped shut to allow him to sleep, while he later admitted that his only joy in the first few weeks of his recovery came from his nurses turning the valve that mainlined a fresh dose of painkillers into his battered system. By February of 1996, though, Hakkinen felt strong enough to drive, and McLaren arranged a private test of the new MP4/11 for him at Paul Ricard. Despite only being able to smile with half his mouth (again, the result of nerve damage), 87 days after his accident, Hakkinen managed 63 laps of the French circuit, his fastest over half a second quicker than Michael Schumacher had gone in his new Ferrari F310 the day before. The Finn was duly declared fully fit for the 1996 season – and having successfully avoided Martin Brundle’s first-lap horror smash in the Melbourne season-opener, he finished fifth on his return to F1 racing.

IN SHORT: The injuries above and below are all nasty, but the psychological hammering a fractured skull can impart is truly horrible. Hakkinen showed true grit to get himself through the winter of 1995-96 – and his pair of F1 titles two years later were his reward.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.10-of-the-best-injury-comebacks-in-f1-history.6bFQJxQ2QGMgWi6BMUMWDA.html

Here is discussion from 2001
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/22135-whats-the-deal-with-mikas-face/


QUESTION: What's the deal with Mika's face? Just curious, he seems to be only using half his face when smiling/talking/whatever. Even his left eye is out of line! Maybe a result of his near-death crash? I know people with half their face paralized due to injury. Also Hakkinen's case?

ANSWER: Mika`s left side of his face got complately paralyzed in his horrible crash in Adeleide 1995. In early part of 1996 one could clearly notice that his mouth`s left side was "hanging" and not working like rest of his mouth. He also lost almost all hearing from one of his ears so it was quite a big one...

ANSWER2: This is absolutely true. A part of Mika's facial nerves damaged in the Adelaide crash. You can easily see, how different the both sides of his face are. The area near his left eye is almost complitely paralyzed, so it has kind of a lizard look. That is also one reason, why he does not often make a big smile. It would be a onesided one. Mika's ability to measure distances was hurt for a few weeks after the crash. If it would not have recovered, Mika's career in F1 would have been over. Mika's left ear is almost complitely deaf. That is one reason, why he has difficulties to recognize speech, if there is a loud noise on the back. That has happened during some interviews and post-race conferences. MH has had some problems in the post-race conferences, and one reason to that is because his english is not very fluent and especially because of his intonation. He has a typical finnish intonation, where the tone is slightly up in the beginning of the sentence and then the tone goes down. However, english is not supposed to be spoken like that. It gives the impression, that the speaker does not really care if the others are listening or understanding anything. Obviously the speaker tells his story, because he is forced to do that, but he does not like the situation at all.




Pretty obvious the hearing problems was part reason why he was such weirdo in interviews. He often did that where he was quiet for long time after question was asked, and then went, "sorry?" It was literally because he was trying to figure out what he was asked because he couldn't hear.

Younger Mika:

https://i.imgur.com/11T5lmu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4meHTeu.jpg

[Lemminkäinen]

Well, nothing except the theory about the origin of the Hungarians. And the possible connection with Finno Ugric peoples through language mostly. Of course this is a very questionable theory until this day (if we exclude the language-theory).

This is, if I think about my mom. My father is a separate case because he considers himself the descendant of the Huns. Which can be true I think. (he is Szekely Hungarian) FTDNA gave me Northeast and Southeast Asia as a trace result.
Also many Admixture Softwares assign some Chinese/Mongolian or something similar to me. So I think the Hun origin of the Szekelys is true.

The Hungarian history is really fascinating. However, I don't understan the context between Hunnic and Finno-Ugric migrations.

[Chris596]

The Hungarian history is really fascinating. However, I don't understan the context between Hunnic and Finno-Ugric migrations.

That's great! :)


I don't understan the context between Hunnic and Finno-Ugric migrations No, I think there's a misunderstanding. My mom is ,,normal Hungarian'' from Hungary and my father is Szekely (a type of Hungarian) from Transylvania. Szekelys have had a separate history before coming into contact with ,,normal'' Hungarians (those who migrated from the Urals).

Szekelys say they are the remnants of the Huns mostly, who remained or stayed in Transylvania (not everyone but most of them). Genetically Szekelys are between regular Hungarians and Balkan people (my father is an exception he is basically a Balkan man with extra East Asian ancestry). Prince Csaba (according to the Hungarian mythology) was their King who was supposedly one of the sons of Attila.

So Szekely was a separate ethnic group who joined the ,,normal'' Hungarians.

This was my great grandma (paternal):

https://i.imgur.com/dRPO4Nn.jpg

[Lemminkäinen]

That's great! :)

No, I think there's a misunderstanding. My mom is ,,normal Hungarian'' from Hungary and my father is Szekely (a type of Hungarian) from Transylvania. Szekelys have had a separate history before coming into contact with ,,normal'' Hungarians (those who migrated from the Urals).

Szekelys say they are the remnants of the Huns mostly, who remained or stayed in Transylvania (not everyone but most of them). Genetically Szekelys are between regular Hungarians and Balkan people (my father is an exception he is basically a Balkan man with extra East Asian ancestry). Prince Csaba (according to the Hungarian mythology) was their King who was supposedly one of the sons of Attila.

So Szekely was a separate ethnic group who joined the ,,normal'' Hungarians.

This was my great grandma (paternal):

https://i.imgur.com/dRPO4Nn.jpg


I know that Hungarians are basically Central European and your parents too. But it is fascinating how the Hungarian language doesn't belong to the IE group and the country name is in English Hun-gary. You use name Magyarország, though.