Arpad dynasty DNA (kings of Hungary & Croatia)

[Rethel]

Your interpretation of the Árpád dna results? Thoughts on the downstream possibilities?

Do you want to provoke great fights between her and Stears for years? :laugh:

[Turul Karom]

Do you want to provoke great fights between her and Stears for years? :laugh:

I provoke nothing lol. It's a question everyone is asking to one another. Whatever she and Stears do or talk about is none of my concern or even my business.

[Jana]

Your interpretation of the Árpád dna results? Thoughts on the downstream possibilities?

Possible Turkic ancestry, if Z93. If Z280, than more Finno-Ugric.
Slavic ? No

[Jana]

Do you want to provoke great fights between her and Stears for years? :laugh:

He isn't so close minded as you imagine at all :)

[Turul Karom]

Possible Turkic ancestry, if Z93. If Z280, than more Finno-Ugric.
Slavic ? No

I know it is a guess, but do you think they will ever bother releasing the information about the downstream?

How about your thoughts on the origins of the names on the previous pages?


He isn't so close minded as you imagine at all :)

I assume you are talking about Stears; he's fine. He just speaks from a new position as his DNA tests arrive and he uses more autosomal calculators and more Magyar DNA is researched in general. As the science progresses so will his views on his heritage. He will have you to help him with this as well.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I know it is a guess, but do you think they will ever bother releasing the information about the downstream?

How about your thoughts on the origins of the names on the previous pages?



I assume you are talking about Stears; he's fine. He just speaks from a new position as his DNA tests arrive and he uses more autosomal calculators and more Magyar DNA is researched in general. As the science progresses so will his views on his heritage. He will have you to help him with this as well.

Is that true that Szekelys are the purest Hungarians, and their results are the closest to Steppes ?

[blogen]

You do not know, as he supposedly lived in pre-historic times, when
Hugarians were somewhere on the East, and possible mixed some Slavs.

Everybody know this, because the vovels in the Levente are all high, while the in the Slavonic form are low or mixed. :D

The vovelharmony in the Hungarian language created the Hungarian Λεβεδίαρ name.

[blogen]

Possible Turkic ancestry, if Z93. If Z280, than more Finno-Ugric.
Slavic ? No

Possible Magyar ancestry in this context. These were Ugric or Iranic markers at this time. Turkic markers today only, after the great scale Turkification of the steppe!

[blogen]

Is that true that Szekelys are the purest Hungarians, and their results are the closest to Steppes ?

No. Székelys are average Hungarians. They were the descendants of the pagan free warrior caste (várjobbágy in the early christian state).

[ButlerKing]

R1 Turkic pride!

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/74/8c/06/748c0692fff3881b28c8b97f80ff736f.jpg

You should becareful with claiming it as Turkic

Just like you can't claim a Negro with R1b as West European pride

http://legacy.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p10166.jpg


Pazyryk culture ( R1a, N1b )

" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "


Anayino culture

Sculptural reconstruction of men Lugovskyi burial
Ananyino culture. Gypsum. MMGerasimov work.


" Reconstruction of the mounds number 5, 6 show burial Stone Barn in racial make women Ural type men - striking features of Central Asian Mongoloid."



MALE : R1a
FEMALE: H1a

http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641901/tyurk1.jpg

http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641909/f-u1.jpg[

[ButlerKing]

If he belonged to Eurasian Z93 branch, it would confirm speculation that Arpads were actually Turks.

Who cares what branch of Eurasian Z93 he belonged to. Only thing most important to me is how they really looked like.

It's not like if a Indian man's R1a Eurasian Z93 who mated Black women mtDNA L producing sons and grandsons looking like typical negroes means there is great deal of racial pride Eurasian Z93 branch.

[Turul Karom]

Is that true that Szekelys are the purest Hungarians, and their results are the closest to Steppes ?

First of all the concept of "pure Hungarian" genetically is challenging to define at all because of the mixing even the conquering Magyars did with Ugrics, Slavs, Germanics, and other Turkic peoples during their movement west. The only argument I think can be "general phenotypes" that they had. There were no dark African Magyars or 100% east Asian Magyars during the entry into Europe, so the Turanid phenotypes were the most common ones, West Eurasian.

Second, there is great debate on the origins of the Székely people. The common consensus is that they are Turkic peoples (even the Wikipedia link Stears likes to quote states this), but when they arrived is the issue. Some say they are the remnants of Huns in the Carpathian that joined the Magyars during the conquest. Some say they are a Magyarized Turkic tribe that the Magyars placed to guard the border.

See post number 7 in this thread for my highlights from the source:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228635-Sz%E9kelys-The-last-Turkic-Warriors-in-Europe

You can also see some of Stears' incomplete opinion above and more Turkic evidence posted below.

[Rethel]

Just like you can't claim a Negro with R1b as West European pride

Original West European. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234861-Cheddar-Man-Reconstruction)

p.s.
I see, that with every appearance you are coming with more
weird theses. It is sad, as you started some time ago well...

[Turul Karom]

You should becareful with claiming it as Turkic



R1a and R1b are Eurasian in origin. I have no idea why you bring up phenotypes and Y DNA in this scenario. I am not a "white supremacist" and don't care about these African examples you are showing when their Y DNA is from Africa downstream but had Eurasian roots, perhaps before Africanization of the migrants thousands and thousands of years ago. Each African people have their own ethnogenesis and it is up to them to decide who contributed significantly enough to be included in their ethnic identity.


Who cares what branch of Eurasian Z93 he belonged to. Only thing most important to me is how they really looked like.

It's not like if a Indian man's R1a Eurasian Z93 who mated Black women mtDNA L producing sons and grandsons looking like typical negroes means there is great deal of racial pride Eurasian Z93 branch.

Again this has nothing to do with the topic. We weren't even considered defacto "white" until the early middle of the 20th century. Hell, the Meyers ethnographic chart has the Ottomans as more "Caucasian" than us. But now that we're this great "bastion of Europe" in the eyes of some once more, I'm supposed to care about being white or something? Where was that European care during Trianon? Where was that thanks for those years during the Ottoman invasion or during our revolutions for freedom from Hapsburg oppression or communist hell?

[ButlerKing]

Original West European. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?234861-Cheddar-Man-Reconstruction)

p.s.
I see, that with every appearance you are coming with more
weird theses. It is sad, as you started some time ago well...

He looks like a typical South Indian Veddoid :D

http://worlddocumentaryphotographer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/All-Veddas-together.jpg

[blogen]

The common consensus is that they are Turkic peoples

Between whom? Beceause the scientific community of the Hungarian historians not supported the foreign origin Székely-theory. They were average Magyars, their social status was the source of their Székely identity. Because there is not any evidence their different ethnical origin. Every early Székely related evidence is connected to the Magyar language and the Magyar society.

Pre-resettlement age Székely related toponyms:
https://i.img.ie/3q2.jpg
toponym from the székely name, toponym from the lövő name, place with writtend evidence of the Székely population.

[Turul Karom]

Between whom? Beceause the scientific community of the Hungarian historians not supported the foreign origin Székely-theory. They were average Magyars, their social status was the source of their Székely identity.

See the links posted in the thread I linked to and I will also post more sources for you later. I am not saying they are not Magyars; they are and they are proud. They have mixed with us through the ages as well, so we are truly one. The debate is how separate they were in fact during the land taking and how they have gotten their unique origins as Magyars.

[ButlerKing]

R1a and R1b are Eurasian in origin. I have no idea why you bring up phenotypes and Y DNA in this scenario. I am not a "white supremacist" and don't care about these African examples you are showing when their Y DNA is from Africa downstream but had Eurasian roots, perhaps before Africanization of the migrants thousands and thousands of years ago. Each African people have their own ethnogenesis and it is up to them to decide who contributed significantly enough to be included in their ethnic identity.



Again this has nothing to do with the topic. We weren't even considered defacto "white" until the early middle of the 20th century. Hell, the Meyers ethnographic chart has the Ottomans as more "Caucasian" than us. But now that we're this great "bastion of Europe" in the eyes of some once more, I'm supposed to care about being white or something? Where was that European care during Trianon? Where was that thanks for those years during the Ottoman invasion or during our revolutions for freedom from Hapsburg oppression or communist hell?


Because they came from Central Asia not from Europe, North Africa, Middle east BUT CENTRAL ASIANS. If it's from Central Asia that means there's always a huge risk of any Central origin haplogroup being heavily hybrisized with Mongoloid. I find it stupid when people get excited of the fact he is R1a or R1b, if he was from England with no central Asian connection than no one should give a crap but since Hungarians claim close relations with central asians, it's a totally different story.

Cambodians also have western eurasian haplogroups such mtDNA U, H and Y-DNA R1a but all of these are absolutely related with South Asian or Indian population. There were not European or middle eastern looking people that spread these to Cambodia.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ze9Lg_t4lb0/TWKjmBjTJ3I/AAAAAAAAAw0/OlgerR5NTvc/s1600/W020060928427043356490.jpg

[Rethel]

Cambodians also have western eurasian haplogroups such mtDNA U, H and Y-DNA R1a but all of these are absolutely related with South Asian or Indian population.

How much?

[ButlerKing]

How much?

Not a lot but it's ussually mainly from Southern Cambodia.

2.5% West Eurasian haplogroup with 4.5% South Asian mtDNA like mtDNA M2
R1a is 7.5%

South Asian mtDNA map
http://i60.tinypic.com/r0o2v6.png

[blogen]

See the links posted in the thread I linked to and I will also post more sources for you later. I am not saying they are not Magyars; they are and they are proud. They have mixed with us through the ages as well, so we are truly one. The debate is how separate they were in fact during the land taking and how they have gotten their unique origins as Magyars.

What is their unique origin?

[Turul Karom]

Because they came from Central Asia not from Europe, North Africa, Middle east BUT CENTRAL ASIANS. If it's from Central Asia that means there's always a huge risk of any Central origin haplogroup being heavily hybrisized with Mongoloid. I find it stupid when people get excited of the fact he is R1a or R1b, if he was from England with no central Asian connection than no one should give a crap but since Hungarians claim close relations with central asians, it's a totally different story.


Cambodians also have western eurasian haplogroups such mtDNA U, H and Y-DNA R1a but all of these are absolutely related with South Asian or Indian population. There were not European or middle eastern looking people that spread these to Cambodia.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ze9Lg_t4lb0/TWKjmBjTJ3I/AAAAAAAAAw0/OlgerR5NTvc/s1600/W020060928427043356490.jpg

Then I have no idea the point you are trying to make and you need to clarify. This idea of "Asian" meaning 100% East Asian is poisoning your brain like most in the Anglosphere when the term is far larger and contains dozens and dozens of phenotypes. This "Mongoloid fear" is rediculous.

[Rethel]

2.5% West Eurasian haplogroup

Mt?


R1a is 7.5%

Quite much. And how much R1b and R2?

[Turul Karom]

What is their unique origin?

That is the debate. Just like the Kabars joined us and of course are now Magyars, the question is if the Székely people were a fellow Turkic tribe as well or (and this seems more legend) if they were the settled Huns who joined us during the conquest. I have heard some theories about them being Avar remnants or Avar mixed as well. As I've said my friend, I will gain more links for you that are not only wikipedia parroting garbage, haha.

[ButlerKing]

Then I have no idea the point you are trying to make and you need to clarify. This idea of "Asian" meaning 100% East Asian is poisoning your brain like most in the Anglosphere when the term is far larger and contains dozens and dozens of phenotypes. This "Mongoloid fear" is rediculous.

It means that the Hungarian male Arpad founder with R1a could also just be Mongoloid, doesn't matter how east Asian he is genetically.

African Americans are not 100% negroid either, and they many western eurasian haplogroups and they speak indo-european language but it doesn't mean the same crap as the caucasoids from europe, middle east, south asia.

[Turul Karom]

It means that the Hungarian male Arpad founder with R1a could also just be Mongoloid, doesn't matter how east Asian he is genetically.

African Americans are not 100% negroid either, and they many western eurasian haplogroups and they speak indo-european language but it doesn't mean the same crap as the caucasoids from europe, middle east, south asia.

Have you ever read the anthropology results from the conquering Magyar graves? The shift is "Europoid" with occasional "Mongoloid influence" which can be interpreted in different ways. Even the mtDNA of the Cumans was predominantly West Eurasian. I feel like it is very safe to say that the Árpád line has the West Turanid/Alföld look.

Again though I don't care about these African examples. The African Americans don't even look very African; I see Nigerian tourists in Budapest and they are much darker. The African Americans in general seem to have lighter skin, some far lighter, and can have wavy hair and more rarely, colorful eyes that are not dark brown. Most of them seem to have a West African face and head shape though.

[ButlerKing]

Have you ever read the anthropology results from the conquering Magyar graves? The shift is "Europoid" with occasional "Mongoloid influence" which can be interpreted in different ways. Even the mtDNA of the Cumans was predominantly West Eurasian. I feel like it is very safe to say that the Árpád line has the West Turanid/Alföld look.

Again though I don't care about these African examples. The African Americans don't even look very African; I see Nigerian tourists in Budapest and they are much darker. The African Americans in general seem to have lighter skin, some far lighter, and can have wavy hair and more rarely, colorful eyes that are not dark brown. Most of them seem to have a West African face and head shape though.

Using your own Hungarian data.

Google translation Hungarian to English

Magyar történelem anekdötákban
Dante Könyvkiadó, 1943 - Hungary - 351 pages
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=L7t6AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE70_ahBnLe_ie1ujnf6b1uyfKgeGFXUPfPzhXjd0 pj6ZnH_l71huLPDWUfyTlPeShVdfiIQ8NBOlqS1IgmbXLNyO5w q8doxGxUecE6WqRMmtQid1VI8

Ez volt utolsó kalandozó hadjáratuk. Az anekdota kétségtelenül a zömöktermetű magyart, vagyis a magyar mongoloid kiskőzéptermetűségét kívánja glo- tifikálni íigy, mint ezt a Szent István Királyúr kistermelüségé- ről szóló anekdotákban látjuk. A kistermetű magyarról és a nagytermetű idegenről szóló, számos korai magyar középkori adoma kétségtelenül annak az emléke, hogy a 13 — 14. században még igen feltűnd lehetett a mongoloid kistermetűség és az északi szláv és germán

" This was their last adventurous campaign. The anecdote undoubtedly wants to gloat the small-scale Hungarian, that is, the Hungarian mongoloid's small-scale commodity, as we see in the anecdotes about the smallness of St. Stephen's Little Ones. The many Hungarian medieval adventures of the small Hungarian and the great alien are undoubtedly the remembrance of the fact that in the 13th and 14th centuries the Mongolian minorities and Northern Slavic and Germanic "



http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/hungarians.html

" B. Csányi, E. Bogácsi-Szabó, Gy. Tömöry, Á. Czibula, K. Priskin, A. Csősz, B. Mende, P. Langó, K. Csete, A. Zsolnai, E. K. Conant, C. S. Downes, and I. Raskó. "Y-Chromosome Analysis of Ancient Hungarian and Two Modern Hungarian-Speaking Populations from the Carpathian Basin." Annals of Human Genetics 72:4 (July 2008): pages 519-534. 100 Hungarian people from Hungary and 97 Hungarian-speaking Szekler people from Transylvania in present-day Romania were genetically tested. DNA was also successfully sampled from the skeletons of 4 Hungarians who lived in the 10th century. Two of the skeletons that were anthropologically Caucasoid-Mongoloid hybrids carried the Y-DNA haplogroup N3 (later ramed N1c) while one of them carried the Caucasoid mtDNA haplogroup H. This, along with the evidence from modern-day Hungarians, shows that the Magyar invaders had intermarried with local European tribes, greatly watering down Mongoloid genetic and physical traits among those who continued to speak the Hungarian language. "

[ButlerKing]

Mt?

Yes mtDNA U



Quite much. And how much R1b and R2?

R2 sometimes appears 0% sometimes 2%. No Cambodians have R1b.

[Rethel]

R2 sometimes appears 0% sometimes 2%. No Cambodians have R1b.

So up to 10%.

Idk where did you get this, but if it would be
true, such information would be easly to find,
crying from the google to be find. It doesn't.

Years ago, I found information,
that all R is 5% at best in Cambodia.

[Turul Karom]

Using your own Hungarian data.

Google translation Hungarian to English

Magyar történelem anekdötákban
Dante Könyvkiadó, 1943 - Hungary - 351 pages
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=L7t6AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE70_ahBnLe_ie1ujnf6b1uyfKgeGFXUPfPzhXjd0 pj6ZnH_l71huLPDWUfyTlPeShVdfiIQ8NBOlqS1IgmbXLNyO5w q8doxGxUecE6WqRMmtQid1VI8

Ez volt utolsó kalandozó hadjáratuk. Az anekdota kétségtelenül a zömöktermetű magyart, vagyis a magyar mongoloid kiskőzéptermetűségét kívánja glo- tifikálni íigy, mint ezt a Szent István Királyúr kistermelüségé- ről szóló anekdotákban látjuk. A kistermetű magyarról és a nagytermetű idegenről szóló, számos korai magyar középkori adoma kétségtelenül annak az emléke, hogy a 13 — 14. században még igen feltűnd lehetett a mongoloid kistermetűség és az északi szláv és germán

" This was their last adventurous campaign. The anecdote undoubtedly wants to gloat the small-scale Hungarian, that is, the Hungarian mongoloid's small-scale commodity, as we see in the anecdotes about the smallness of St. Stephen's Little Ones. The many Hungarian medieval adventures of the small Hungarian and the great alien are undoubtedly the remembrance of the fact that in the 13th and 14th centuries the Mongolian minorities and Northern Slavic and Germanic "



http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/hungarians.html

" B. Csányi, E. Bogácsi-Szabó, Gy. Tömöry, Á. Czibula, K. Priskin, A. Csősz, B. Mende, P. Langó, K. Csete, A. Zsolnai, E. K. Conant, C. S. Downes, and I. Raskó. "Y-Chromosome Analysis of Ancient Hungarian and Two Modern Hungarian-Speaking Populations from the Carpathian Basin." Annals of Human Genetics 72:4 (July 2008): pages 519-534. 100 Hungarian people from Hungary and 97 Hungarian-speaking Szekler people from Transylvania in present-day Romania were genetically tested. DNA was also successfully sampled from the skeletons of 4 Hungarians who lived in the 10th century. Two of the skeletons that were anthropologically Caucasoid-Mongoloid hybrids carried the Y-DNA haplogroup N3 (later ramed N1c) while one of them carried the Caucasoid mtDNA haplogroup H. This, along with the evidence from modern-day Hungarians, shows that the Magyar invaders had intermarried with local European tribes, greatly watering down Mongoloid genetic and physical traits among those who continued to speak the Hungarian language. "

You are taking things far out of context. The adventures of the early Magyars are surrounded with both fact and legend. You are also quoting out of data sources that are no longer the standard for judging Hungarian composition. It would be OK if you quoted old data that was still supported by more modern science, but did you read the links I have posted far earlier in the thread? Firstly, the small Magyars were not all small but symbolic, and the most accurate way I can explain the actual "small" Magyars is to compare it with the sort of "David and Goliath" or "underdog" lore the West is so fond of... see here and watch closely...


https://youtu.be/1evLPnc8oC0

Second, read the various earlier links where far more samples than four were taken and how they define their terms far better than just "Mongoloid". Each year more and more Magyar conquest era graves are studied and we learn more about our Turkic past.

[ButlerKing]

You are taking things far out of context. The adventures of the early Magyars are surrounded with both fact and legend. You are also quoting out of data sources that are no longer the standard for judging Hungarian composition. It would be OK if you quoted old data that was still supported by more modern science, but did you read the links I have posted far earlier in the thread? Firstly, the small Magyars were not all small but symbolic, and the most accurate way I can explain the actual "small" Magyars is to compare it with the sort of "David and Goliath" or "underdog" lore the West is so fond of... see here and watch closely...


https://youtu.be/1evLPnc8oC0

Second, read the various earlier links where far more samples than four were taken and how they define their terms far better than just "Mongoloid". Each year more and more Magyar conquest era graves are studied and we learn more about our Turkic past.

You're telling me to watch cartoon network ?

I've read the links and found no data on their anthropological type

" In summary, we successfully defined a Y-chromosomal profile of King Béla III, which can serve as a reference for the identification of further remains and disputed living descendants of the Árpád Dynasty. [um]Among the examined skeletons, we discovered an Árpád member, whose exact affiliation, however, has not yet been established [u]. "


We all know don't know what type of R1a they have.

" There were three R1a and two R1b statistically predicted Y haplogroups among the male skeletons (Table 3). These are the most frequent and second most frequent haplogroups (25.6 and 18.1% respectively) in the present Hungarian population (Völgyi et al. 2009). King Béla III was inferred to belong to haplogroup R1a. The R1a Y haplogroup relates paternally to more than 10% of men in a wide geographic area from South Asia to Central Eastern Europe and South Siberia (Underhill et al. 2010). It is the most frequent haplogroup in various populations speaking Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Dravidian, Turkic and Finno-Ugric languages (Underhill et al. 2010). "

[Turul Karom]

You're telling me to watch cartoon network ?

Oh? Cannot spend 10 minutes watching something that gives context to the out of context source you quoted from 1943? Are you an expert on our adventures pre-settlement? Something tells me no, which is why you will enjoy the history and story.


I've read the links and found no data on their anthropological type

" In summary, we successfully defined a Y-chromosomal profile of King Béla III, which can serve as a reference for the identification of further remains and disputed living descendants of the Árpád Dynasty. [um]Among the examined skeletons, we discovered an Árpád member, whose exact affiliation, however, has not yet been established [u]. "


We all know don't know what type of R1a they have.

" There were three R1a and two R1b statistically predicted Y haplogroups among the male skeletons (Table 3). These are the most frequent and second most frequent haplogroups (25.6 and 18.1% respectively) in the present Hungarian population (Völgyi et al. 2009). King Béla III was inferred to belong to haplogroup R1a. The R1a Y haplogroup relates paternally to more than 10% of men in a wide geographic area from South Asia to Central Eastern Europe and South Siberia (Underhill et al. 2010). It is the most frequent haplogroup in various populations speaking Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Dravidian, Turkic and Finno-Ugric languages (Underhill et al. 2010). "

I've read it, yes. We are all waiting for the downstream. The fact it is R1 is intriguing in and of itself. The R1b branches will be nice to learn too.

Now enjoy your Hungarian lesson. You will better appreciate your context when watching it.

[blogen]

That is the debate. Just like the Kabars joined us and of course are now Magyars, the question is if the Székely people were a fellow Turkic tribe as well or (and this seems more legend) if they were the settled Huns who joined us during the conquest. I have heard some theories about them being Avar remnants or Avar mixed as well. As I've said my friend, I will gain more links for you that are not only wikipedia parroting garbage, haha.

Where is the debate? Only the origin of their name and status debated scientifically today. From a Turkic tribal name (skl or eszkil, for example Róna-Tas) or from the Hungarian administrative organization (szék). From a subjugated border guard elements or they were free warriors (várjobbágy) in the 10-11th century. Their ethnicization or the ethnicization of their absolute majority is not a debate anymor: they were ethnic magyars since the beginnings (Hungarian conquest), beacause there are evidences onto this only.

[Turul Karom]

Where is the debate? Only the origin of their name and status debated scientifically today. From a Turkic tribal name (skl or eszkil, for example Róna-Tas) or from the Hungarian administrative organization (szék). From a subjugated border guard elements or they were free warriors (várjobbágy) in the 10-11th century. Their ethnicization or the ethnicization of their absolute majority is not a debate anymor: they were ethnic magyars since the beginnings (Hungarian conquest), beacause there are evidences onto this only.

You stated it already: if they were subjugated border guard elements what were they subjugated from? I never said once they are not Magyars. My mother's family is of this ancestry. The Turkic tribal name is important to our own Turkic identity and components as Magyars as a whole.

[ButlerKing]

Oh? Cannot spend 10 minutes watching something that gives context to the out of context source you quoted from 1943? Are you an expert on our adventures pre-settlement? Something tells me no, which is why you will enjoy the history and story.



I've read it, yes. We are all waiting for the downstream. The fact it is R1 is intriguing in and of itself. The R1b branches will be nice to learn too.

Now enjoy your Hungarian lesson. You will better appreciate your context when watching it.


Why would I want to watch a cartoon show with a Hungarian language ? I've watched 55 secs of that video and do not find anything interesting.

[Turul Karom]

Why would I want to watch a cartoon show with a Hungarian language ? I've watched 55 secs of that video and do not find anything interesting.

Haha, now I am tempted to say you are being a troll. The video displays just what you were so mistaken about. Ironically it does so using medieval miniatures. Here I thought you'd appreciate that given your out of context quote.

At 5:00 specifically is your explanation of the "small Hungarians" in the David and Goliath sense, while throughout the video you see the "smallness" of the way they are treated and seen. It is visual. You will understand your poor context then.

If you can't give it a few minutes of your time then how can we have a discussion on it?

[blogen]

You stated it already: if they were subjugated border guard elements what were they subjugated from?

From the free status! There were dozens of various tribal origin groups on this task, maybe a social origin caste was one of them. The székely name is similar origin than the tolmács word (from the Pecheneg talmács/tulmátzoi tribal name) in this case.

But the social origin caste in the service of the royal administration is the probable option in this case.


I never said once they are not Magyars. My mother's family is of this ancestry. The Turkic tribal name is important to our own Turkic identity and components as Magyars as a whole.

The Turkic tribal name is only baseless speculation based on the similarity between the two names. Grammatically works (Róna-Tas), but the Hungarian administrative division name: szék was much more better option.

[ButlerKing]

Haha, now I am tempted to say you are being a troll. The video displays just what you were so mistaken about. Ironically it does so using medieval miniatures. Here I thought you'd appreciate that given your out of context quote.

At 5:00 specifically is your explanation of the "small Hungarians" in the David and Goliath sense, while throughout the video you see the "smallness" of the way they are treated and seen. It is visual. You will understand your poor context then.

If you can't give it a few minutes of your time then how can we have a discussion on it?

I couldn't bear to watch all of it so I skipped a minute or two everytime I allowed myself to watch it for 2-3 seconds, it's horrible.. How can annoying watch some paper cartoon for the entire 9 minutes. I don't understand any part of the video.

[Turul Karom]

I couldn't bear to watch all of it so I skipped a minute or two everytime I allowed myself to watch it for 2-3 seconds, it's horrible.. How can annoying watch some paper cartoon for the entire 9 minutes. I don't understand any part of the video.

I literally laughed.

[Marmara]

In Hungary (and Croatia) group with most Z93 are local Gypsies. Yes, not trolling!

Hungarian and Croatian Gypsies are 30% R1a1- Z93! If Arpad is that, they are more related with them paternally than most of other people in Carpathian Basin.

That's completely normal. R1a-Z93 is Aryan, brought to İndia by Aryan conquerors, same as R1b brought to Americas by Whites. Turkic R1a-Z93 is the result of fusing with Scythians (like happened in Hungarian confederation, Ugrics and Turkics fused).

[Harkonnen]

He is heartbroken, Bela III is his favorite King :(

But really, this only confirms what I suspected, and what Blogen wrote many times, that R1a was primarly haplogroup of conquering Magyars, not N1c.

Nonsense, most of the conquering Magyar warrior graves were N1c1, with some R1s

[Rethel]

most

2.

[Harkonnen]

2.

More than half were N1c1. The R1a1 men have always been and will always be a race of slaves. Just deal with it.

[blogen]

Sargat culture mtDNA:

C: 26%
G: 10%
A: 10%
T: 43%
Z: 7%
Y: 4%
forrás: Casey C. Bennett, Frederika A. Kaestle: Investigation of Ancient DNA from Western Siberia and the Sargat Culture

[Peterski]

More than half were N1c1.

How do you count it? Only 2 were N1c, and we have several (more than four).

[Jana]

I know it is a guess, but do you think they will ever bother releasing the information about the downstream?
How about your thoughts on the origins of the names on the previous pages?
I hope they will :) I have read the thread about the names and their origins, and I find it very interesting, but this topic is unknown to me, so I just read it without comment .


I assume you are talking about Stears; he's fine. He just speaks from a new position as his DNA tests arrive and he uses more autosomal calculators and more Magyar DNA is researched in general. As the science progresses so will his views on his heritage. He will have you to help him with this as well.
Sure :)
For example he score some eskimo/inuit like DNA on tests, which I sure is from oldest layer of Ugric peoples. and other things too, as you know.

Good night!

[Proto-Shaman]

Lets add, what the Adalbert III (Bela III) had to say in this matter,
under who's protection the history of the family was written:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cgyek

In the year of Our Lord's incarnation 819, Ügek, the noblest chieftain
of Scythia descending from the great house of Magog, took to wife in
Dentumoger the daughter of Prince Eunedubelian, called Emese, from whom he begot a son,
who was named Álmos. But he is called Álmos from a divine event, because when she was
pregnant a divine vision appeared to his mother in a dream in the form of a falcon that seemed
to come to her and impregnate her and made known to her that from her womb a torrent would
come forth and from her loins glorious kings be generated, but that they would not multiply in
their own land. Because a dream is called álom in the Hungarian language and his birth was
predicted in a dream, so he was called Álmos. Or he was called Álmos, that is holy, because
holy kings and dukes were born of his line.

He himself claimed to be an Indoeuropean, Scythian, descendat of Japheth.
So his result to be R1, is perfectly fine and agreeable with his own claimed history.

In addition it is worthy to add, that according to the same medieval
legends, Hungarians as a folk were descendants of Ham and Nemrod.
So, if they knew the difference, then we shouldn;t be surrprized also.
Turkic language family is not Indo-European, just saying.

[Proto-Shaman]

Possible Magyar ancestry in this context. These were Ugric or Iranic markers at this time. Turkic markers today only, after the great scale Turkification of the steppe!

https://i.imgur.com/fL2QdI2.gif

[Proto-Shaman]

From the free status! There were dozens of various tribal origin groups on this task, maybe a social origin caste was one of them. The székely name is similar origin than the tolmács word (from the Pecheneg talmács/tulmátzoi tribal name) in this case.

But the social origin caste in the service of the royal administration is the probable option in this case.

The Turkic tribal name is only baseless speculation based on the similarity between the two names. Grammatically works (Róna-Tas), but the Hungarian administrative division name: szék was much more better option.
Its the same AS/AZ Saka tribe.

[Proto-Shaman]

R2b brought to Americas by Whites. Turkic R2-Z93...

Sooooo, did I get you right? Whites and Turks came from India?
https://i.imgur.com/2OH441R.jpg

[Marmara]

Sooooo, did I get you right? Whites and Turks came from India?
https://i.imgur.com/2OH441R.jpg

No, read again.

[Harkonnen]

How do you count it? Only 2 were N1c, and we have several (more than four).

2 out of 4 elite warrior graves were N1c1.

[Turul Karom]

2 out of 4 elite warrior graves were N1c1.

...only in what you are quoting. We have many more graves studied now, including "elite warrior" burials. As stated there are many more haplogroups than N1 now. What is the confusion?

[ButlerKing]

That's completely normal. R1a-Z93 is Aryan, brought to İndia by Aryan conquerors, same as R2b brought to Americas by Whites. Turkic R2-Z93 is the result of fusing with Scythians (like happened in Hungarian confederation, Ugrics and Turkics fused).

There's no proof of any Aryan invasion of India and even if there was they were already heavily mixed with South Asian DNA. Do no forget to get to India they must first go through Afghanistan who are a West Asian population with some ASI admixture.

Many R1a-z93 Indians in return spread their DNA to Europe and middle east.

[blogen]

Nonsense, most of the conquering Magyar warrior graves were N1c1, with some R1s

Not true!

YDNA / mtDNA from Hungarian conqueror aristocratic graves of Karos-Eperjesszög:
R1b1b1a / B4d1
R1b1b1a / H6a1b
I2a / A12
I2a / H6a1a

YDNA from elite grave of Szabadkigyos-Palliget:
N1c

YDNA / mtDNA from elite grave of Örménykút:
N1c / H

So: 33% R1b (the aristocracy), 33% I2a (presumably their guards, because we find these two group in the Karos cemetery) and 33% N1c (rich leaders/warriors).

[Marmara]

There's no proof of any Aryan invasion of India and even if there was they were already heavily mixed with South Asian DNA. Do no forget to get to India they must first go through Afghanistan who are a West Asian population with some ASI admixture.

Many R1a-z93 Indians in return spread their DNA to Europe and middle east.

Avesta and Vegas tell the story of Aryans. In İndia it lost its original meaning though. Aryan was the self designation of pure Indo-İranians who traced their ancestry to Central Asia (Androvono) R haplogroup is not İndian, it's Central Asian.

[Harkonnen]

Not true!

YDNA / mtDNA from Hungarian conqueror aristocratic graves of Karos-Eperjesszög:
R1b1b1a / B4d1
R1b1b1a / H6a1b
I2a / A12
I2a / H6a1a

YDNA from elite grave of Szabadkigyos-Palliget:
N1c

YDNA / mtDNA from elite grave of Örménykút:
N1c / H

So: 33% R1b (the aristocracy), 33% I2a (presumably their guards, because we find these two group in the Karos cemetery) and 33% N1c (rich leaders/warriors).

Ok, whatever.

[Rethel]

There's no proof of any Aryan invasion of India

:picard2:

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Not true!

YDNA / mtDNA from Hungarian conqueror aristocratic graves of Karos-Eperjesszög:
R1b1b1a / B4d1
R1b1b1a / H6a1b
I2a / A12
I2a / H6a1a

YDNA from elite grave of Szabadkigyos-Palliget:
N1c

YDNA / mtDNA from elite grave of Örménykút:
N1c / H

So: 33% R1b (the aristocracy), 33% I2a (presumably their guards, because we find these two group in the Karos cemetery) and 33% N1c (rich leaders/warriors).

Why "N" is dead among modern-day Hungarians? I think it's literally 0% right?

[blogen]

R1b1b1a Hungarian aristocrats from the early 10th century Karos-Eperjesszög cemetery:

Rich burial with partial horse burials (Andronovo origin tratition between the Ugrics):
http://cdn3.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/252javitott04kicsi-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30.jpg?itok=3IYrjqTo

Rich Magyar horsemen:
http://cdn2.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/ferfitexturashq001-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30.png?itok=NnOuZqe_

Some facial reconstruction:
http://cdn1.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/img7154-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30-sep-2014.jpg?itok=F45W0_ru

Their costume and arms:
http://cdn2.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/img7248-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30-sep-2014.jpg?itok=1jAEiuTY
http://cdn1.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/img73082-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30-sep-2014.jpg?itok=BXruMHsn
http://cdn2.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/img73162-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30-sep-2014.jpg?itok=pzr0RQnr
http://cdn3.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/img72892-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30-sep-2014.jpg?itok=h_Xnp0en
http://cdn3.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/img7277-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30-sep-2014.jpg?itok=PJS2tjNE

A burial mask (Finno-Ugric tradition in Europe):
https://i.img.ie/3qs.jpg

The burial mask tradition in Eurasia:
https://www.nyest.hu/media/a-kiallitason-bemutatott-maszkok-harom-csoportja.png?large

[Vlatko Vukovic]

There's no proof of any Aryan invasion of India

No, nothing... except R1a in India.

[Peterski]

Ok, whatever.

Most importantly, royalty was R1a.

[blogen]

Why "N" is dead among modern-day Hungarians? I think it's literally 0% right?

Around 1% is more punctual. The spread of the N between the conquest age Magyars were also not neccesary significant! Some rich burial is not a statistically relevant population sample! Especially, since the noblemes were much more metised between the Magyars! And the Magyar conquerors were a very mixed population from the steppe, look at the I2a guardsmens besides the presumably Sargat origin R1b aristocrats! Who were these guys?

Anyway, proto-Magyars from the Cherkaskul/Mezhovka culture:
YDNA: 50/50% R1a1a1(Z283)/R1b1a2
mtDNA: 33/33/33% I5/J2/M1
source: Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14507.html)

[Jana]

Around 1% is more punctual. The spread of the N between the conquest age Magyars were also not neccesary significant! Some rich burial is not a statistically relevant population sample! Especially, since the noblemes were much more metised between the Magyars! And the Magyar conquerors were a very mixed population from the steppe, look at the I2a guardsmens besides the presumably Sargat origin R1b aristocrats! Who were these guys?
Slavs! They were dinaric I2a types (one south, one north) :)


Anyway, proto-Magyars from the Cherkaskul/Mezhovka culture:
YDNA: 50/50% R1a1a1(Z283)/R1b1a2
mtDNA: 33/33/33% I5/J2/M1
source: Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia (www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14507.html)

Interesting

[blogen]

Slavs! They were dinaric I2a types (one south, one north) :)

Slavic warriors (sic!) in the elite horse guards of the Hungarian grand princes/princes? Not so likely explanation!

Anyway, all of the burials were culturally Magyars in Karos-Eperjesszög. But maybe some of them had different origin with some generation before!

[Jana]

Slavic warriors (sic!) in the elite horse guards of the Hungarian grand princes/princes? Not so likely explanation!

Anyway, all of the burials were culturally Magyars in Karos-Eperjesszög.

Why not ? some people think I2-dinaric east germanic marker, but....(I not think so)

PS Horthy Miklos was I2a dinaric -north :P

[ButlerKing]

Most importantly, royalty was R1a.

R1a being royalty is not important what's important is the racial type they belong to.

[Peterski]

R1a being royalty is not important what's important is the racial type they belong to.

No that's not important. For example a lot of African-Americans are R1, but their R1 is not from Africa.

[Peterski]

There are even Australoids with R1b and with I1:

http://i.imgur.com/vOYzhJl.png

[Jana]

There are even Australoids with R1b and with I1:

http://i.imgur.com/vOYzhJl.png

how that possible ? :eek:

[ButlerKing]

No that's not important. For example a lot of African-Americans are R1, but their R1 is not from Africa.

If they are Black people with R1a than they are still Blacks with R1a. There are many Indians who married black women , do you think their half black children with R1a should marry Indian women? that's nonsense.

I made a thread about R1a Arpad dynasty Mongoloid kings
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235896-Arpad-dynasty-Mongoloid-kings-R1a-DNA-is-irrelevant-without-anthropological-data

[Peterski]

how that possible ? :eek:

They have some European admixture.

But I'm sure most of them still look very Australoid, even if they are ca. 20-30% European.

[ButlerKing]

There are even Australoids with R1b and with I1:

http://i.imgur.com/vOYzhJl.png

No surprise there is haplogroup O3, O1a, O2a1 and Australian aborigines considering there's many articles on southern Chinese men marrying Australian aborigine women. Someone posted this before and since European colonized Australian aborigines there's nothing strange.

[Jana]

They have some European admixture.

But I'm sure most of them still look very Australoid, even if they are ca. 20-30% European.

Aha, you mean modern -day Australoids :) ofcourse they do...

[Peterski]

Not all of them but some do.

[blogen]

Why not?

Because they were not elite warriors! :D

Early varangian guard? It's too early to a full scale Magyarization, but some Varangian maybe joined to the Magyars in Etelköz and their descendants...

Later, the kings of the Árpád-house had Varagian guard and troops. Placenames in Hungary from the Árpád-age with the Varangians ethnonym (varég, kölpény, orosz in the 10-13th century):
https://i.img.ie/3q0.jpg

[Jana]

Because they were not elite warriors! :D

Early varangian guard? It's too early to a full scale Magyarization, but some Varangian maybe joined to the Magyars in Etelköz and their descendants...

Later, the kings of the Árpád-house had Varagian guard and troops. Placenames in Hungary from the Árpád-age with the Varangians ethnonym (varég, kölpény, orosz in the 10-13th century):
https://i.img.ie/3q0.jpg

They could have been White Croats. :thumb001:

[Harkonnen]

There are even Australoids with R1b and with I1:

http://i.imgur.com/vOYzhJl.png

What are those K2bs? Some basal R types?

[Rethel]

Why "N" is dead among modern-day Hungarians? I think it's literally 0% right?

0.47%

[Rethel]

how that possible ? :eek:

Becasue of TAtardism.

[Harkonnen]

0.47%

It looks like ancestral Rs are found in Australia :D

Check this out:

http://i.imgur.com/vOYzhJl.png

The original R man:

https://images.robertharding.com/preview/RM/RH/HORIZONTAL/1194-2216.jpg

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Not only Slavs were in history I2a. What about Bastarns?

[Rethel]

Not only Slavs were in history I2a. What about Bastarns?

If you put the things that way, then every group was
and is I2, becasue it is a type presented everywhere.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

If you put the things that way, then every group was
and is I2, becasue it is a type presented everywhere.

I know. But i am trying to find someone near Carpathian basin.

[blogen]

I know. But i am trying to find someone near Carpathian basin.

The two Karos sample is I2a2! I fund this map:
https://i.img.ie/3q3.gif

The I2a2 representation at the Volga valley is the same area, where the early medieval Magyars lived after they left the former Sargat territory. This was the Kushnarenkovo culture, Magna Hungaria in the chronicles. So, the ancestors of the I2a2 guys maybe came from Volga-Ural region with us!

[Jana]

I2a2 ? sure...:picard1:

[Jana]

I know. But i am trying to find someone near Carpathian basin.

I'll help you
http://www.biega.com/pics/eastslavmap.jpg

[blogen]

I2a2 ? sure...:picard1:

I-CTS10228

[Jana]

I-CTS10228

Yes, that I2a1b now! They change naming often :)
It most common marker in south slavic lands! but common in other slavic countries, romania/moldova, hungary, greece too...

The Magyars pass trough Transcarpathia before enter Carpathian Basin! and there lived suposedly white croats. since one of these I2 warriors has Siberian mtdna, it means he was already assimilted with magyars and had hungarian mother

and this interesting part of De Administrando Imperio:

The rest of the Croats stayed over against Francia, and are now called Belocroats, that is, White Croats, and have their own prince; they are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia, or Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks.

Turks how Emperor called Hungarians in his sources! so it can be from any other slavs, or something else, but my theory hold water as good as these.

[blogen]

Yes, that I2a1b now! They change naming often :)
It most common marker in south slavic lands! but common in other slavic countries, romania/moldova, hungary, greece too...

The Magyars pass trough Transcarpathia before enter Carpathian Basin! and there lived suposedly white croats. since one of these I2 warriors has Siberian mtdna, it means he was already assimilted with magyars and had hungarian mother

Maybe. This is an explanation.

[chyyris]

Not only Slavs were in history I2a. What about Bastarns?

I think that Bastarn or Gothic origin of I2-CTS10228 is nor real.
That is a propaganda which spread some pseuodo-geneticists.

[Proto-Shaman]

No, read again.
R2 still in India.

[Proto-Shaman]

There's no proof of any Aryan invasion of India and even if there was they were already heavily mixed with South Asian DNA. Do no forget to get to India they must first go through Afghanistan who are a West Asian population with some ASI admixture.

Many R1a-z93 Indians in return spread their DNA to Europe and middle east.
Don't forget that Aryan R1a = Turkic (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89241-Aryan-R1a-Turkic)

[chyyris]

Don't forget that Aryan R1a = Turkic (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89241-Aryan-R1a-Turkic)

Z93 is turkified, it's Indo-Iranian marker originally.

[Proto-Shaman]

R1b1b1a Hungarian aristocrats from the early 10th century Karos-Eperjesszög cemetery:

Rich burial with partial horse burials (Andronovo origin tratition between the Ugrics):
http://cdn3.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/252javitott04kicsi-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30.jpg?itok=3IYrjqTo

Rich Magyar horsemen:
http://cdn2.iranytv.hu/sites/iranytv.hu/files/styles/article_700/public/cikk-kepek/20140930/ferfitexturashq001-eli-alakulat-egyedulallo-honfoglalas-kori-kiallitas-miskolcon-sok-keppel-tue-30.png?itok=NnOuZqe_
These are Turkic faces you delusional thickhead. I am sure they had U152 and L23 SNP's!

[Proto-Shaman]

A burial mask (Finno-Ugric tradition in Europe):
https://i.img.ie/3qs.jpg

The burial mask tradition in Eurasia:
https://www.nyest.hu/media/a-kiallitason-bemutatott-maszkok-harom-csoportja.png?large
Holy shit are you actually fucking serious?

Kyrgyz Turkic:
https://bigenc.ru/media/2016/10/27/1235193103/16409.jpg

Hun Turkic, East Turkestan:
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/a7/7d/90/a77d9000c3f59e2feef905b19d7ece14.jpg

Ancient Mycenaen & Greek:
https://i1.wp.com/jauntingjen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/agamamnons-mask.jpg
http://c7.alamy.com/comp/HXXNA4/gold-death-mask-from-grave-iv-grave-circle-a-mycenae-16th-century-HXXNA4.jpg
http://greeklandscapes.com/images/ancient_mycenae/DSC00757.jpg
https://www.andantetravels.com/images/products/large/1383237094athens.jpg

"The great walls of Mycenae, however, were traditionally said to have been built by a "round-faced" people from Lycia, and the art of the treasures there found is similar to that of the Turanians of Asia Minor, [...]." (Claude Reignier Conder, The rise of man, E. P. Dutton, 1908, p.103)

"[...] that in Greece also there was an original substratum of Turanian (Pelasgian) races, which erected the megalithic polygonal masonry of the walls of the ancient cities, and the so-called tombs, or treasuries, of Mycene and Orchomenus.” (Jared Sparks, Making of America Project, Edward Everett, James Russell Lowell, Henry Cabot Lodge, The North American review, University of Northern Iowa, 1870, p.90)

"The archeological findings represent proofs that the Etruscans, Mycenaean and Scythian influences were almost equally strong. These three (supposedly all) Ural Altaic ethno-lingual waves were quite similar in characteristics, [...]. The newest archeological findings seem to prove that the Etruscans were non- Indo-European, but Turanian, or Ural-Altaic peoples." (Endre Haraszti, The ethnic history of Transylvania, Danubian Press, 1971, p.8)

“The Pelasgians, the inhabitants of Greece from neolithic times, developed the Minoan and Mycenaean culture.” (A Companion to Greek Studies, Cambridge University Press Archive, 1931, p.25)

"Nachdem das griechische Festland bis etwa 2200 v. Chr. noch von nicht-griechischen, ja nicht-indoeuropäischen Elementen besiedelt war, also auch Früh-Hell. I und II einen nicht-griechischen Charakter trug, drangen in Früh-Hell. III und Mittel-Hell. I 2200/1900 v. Chr. Einwanderer in Hellas ein, die wir sprachlich als die Vorfahren der mykenischen Griechen und damit der "Achäer" ... ansehen dürfen. Sie vermischten sich mit den bodenständigen vorgriechischen Elementen und nahmen qualifizierten Ackerbau wie das Wohnen in Kleinstädten an." (Prof. Fritz Schachermeyr, in: Lexikon der Antike, Vol. 3, München 1979, p1506)

Don't try to portray your OGHUR TURK ancestors as Finnish :picard2::picard2::picard2:

[Proto-Shaman]

Z93 is turkified, it's Indo-Iranian marker originally.
Where did it get turkified, on Mars? I am sure.

[Stears]

I love this level of denial, in the fact that it is so simple to dispute. Allow me to yet again remind you about all of our similarities:


All of the names of our leaders were Turkic before we became Catholic. We followed Tengrism while on the steppes together. Our alphabet is directly derived from Old Turkic as a child system. We have many Turkic words that are as old as the language and our ancient lifestyle itself. We lived in yurts and fought on horseback with the same tactics. Our government structure directly followed the Turkic model. We lived together in Central Asia for hundreds of years. Fellow Turkic peoples like the Avars, Cumans, Pechenegs, etc, settled in Hungary. We celebrate our common culture and brotherhood today, with Kurultaj.


Wrong. As Blogen pointed out it is not true, that they had turkic name.


Catholic is a religion and not an ethnoliguistic category like Turkic. Hungarians had many religions, not only your cumanian tengrist fantasy. There was no goverment structure, but power structure that time. Japan adopted anglo-saxon type of goverment after the revolution of the Emperor, it did noit make them Anglo-Saxons. Byzantine Empire adopted Persian public administration, but it did not make them Persians. Horse archery (a very timid and feminin way of fighting) is not turkic invention, turkic people adopted the horse and horse archery from non-turkic white steppe cultures. Adopting a military strategy and weapons did not change your ethnicity. Just because Arabs and Russians adopted the tanks (an anglo-saxon invention) and airplanes (american invention) so they became anglo-saxons according to your logic. Pechenegs and Cumans were and remained mortal enemies, they were not welcommed in Hungary, they lived in reserve areas, and the conflicts between Hungarians and these immigrants were very hostile. Cuman migrants regressed drastically the economic and societal development of the area where they settled. Fortunatelly, they were exterminated during the great Turkish wars.






Oh, and incase you did not read about the study in this thread...


"Thus, most of the population in the Carpathian Basin originated from the Hun-Turkic cultural community of the Eurasian Steppe and was accompanied by Slavonic and German-speaking groups."


https://link.springer.com/article/10...520-018-0609-7


These physicians had not clue about history, which is not wonder, because they are not historians. The most laughable thing: they still believe in funny Hunnic origin theories :))))




Bálint Csanád, the most important archeologist and historian took these Hun-believer physicians into thewir place, and he pointed out their ridiculous Hunnic fantasies.
Read about it:
http://hvg.hu/tudomany/20170928_balint_csanad_szurrealizmus_genetika_a_ho nfoglalok_osei_hunok_voltak_reagalas




You see, the more science freely researches, the more evidence it gives to our Turkic past, which is not even disputed, but rather how much % of it is Turkic. Even you, who would once feverishly deny any Turkic relations, now say "it was not as much as you think", because even you cannot logically deny the overwhelming evidence. You are too smart to ignore how silly it makes you look to deny it all outright, so you try to obscure it and minimize it, and maybe try some insults if things do not go well. That is OK; it is how most humans debate when they begin to run into a wall or their ideology begins to fail. You will become more comfortable with your own Turkicness over time.


The biggest problem of your turkic fantasy, that Eastern Slavs like Russians, the Serbians Romanians Ukrainians still have more genetic relationship with oriental people than Hungarians. According to your logic, they are Turanian übermensch because of their DNA......
Despite Slavic ethnic groups come from the steppe, they don't claim other former ethnic groups herritage, like Huns Scythians , and they don't believe in turkic origin theories, despite some of them have steppe markers, unlike the Hungarian population.




Not all scholars are stupid, not all scholars are smart. Also they all have bias in some way; it is why outside researchers take part in order to minimize this bias for or against. But note how when foreign academics state positive findings about our Turkic past, your aggression shows and you dismiss it because they are not Hungarians or are "uneducated". I also love how you accuse me of stating a "straw man" when you list four of them yourself, even blaming "the Jews" for Hungarian Turanism lolol. If many Jewish scholars supported your evermore restrictive identity of "Hungarian-ness", I believe you would change your song.


„you dismiss it because they are not Hungarians or are "uneducated".
It doesn't matter in scientific and scholarly questions, that somebody has Hungarian ethnic origin or not, however the level of personal education, and especially special knowledge on the field of the debate is determinant, it is everything.


You are wrong. Jewish orientalists had not minor, but major role in Hungarian turanism. Most orientalist were de-facto Jews in Hungary before the WW1. There are no academic historian or linguist who see any relationship in the origin of Hungarian language and culture anymore.
There were a strong political interest in Hungarian-Jewish Turanism during the era of dualism.




Ironically, those in the West further poison their historical criticism about Turanism with the idea that it is an almost far-right or proto-fascist ideal (lololol) on places such as the Wikipedia dumpster or in an occasional not-sourced and obscure opinion article, but then there are those like yourself who claim that it is a Jewish ploy and that it originates in the left-wing historical circles of the nation. You cannot make this insane bias on each side up if you tried, haha! Well, I guess you can, if you are trying to discredit an identity and are speaking to an uninformed public.


Wrong. Turanism as a political ideology had many stages.
1st stage : Until the first half of the 19th century Hungarian orientalists believed that the Persian language and Iranian people are the closest relatives of Hungarian language and Hungarian people, while the Turkic relationship was not really tolerated and accepted by them. (The early Hungarian Turanism considered the Iranic languages as part of the Turanian languages.) This attitude changed only after the fall of Hungarian revolution and War of Independence (1848-1849), because the Ottoman government gave asylum for many of the leaders of the Hungarian revolution, this diplomatic act gave a rocketing popularity for Turkey and Turkish people in Hungary. [15]


2. stage Post 1849 era : Turks and turkic people became acceptable „relatives” its era finished with the ugric-turkic war of linguists.
3. Stage Freom the Ugric-turkic linguistic war to the WW1. It ended the Finno-ugric victory in international and national level. Almost all turanist accepted that Hungarian is a finno-ugric language and Hungarians came from the Urals. Turkic theory (and other fantasy grous like the „altaic people” were accepted only as a very very distant relative under the umbrella of Ural-altaic theory. If there are ural-altaic people, than there must be an ural-altaic race too. The ural-altaic theory was manifested in the creation of Turanid race.
4. The Traumatic Turanism after Treaty of Trianon.
The west „betrayed us”
It had only political results, but nothing changed about the theories of origin of Hungarians since the third stage.
5th Post WW2 era, the turkicization of Hungarian past has begun by amateurs. Amateur uneducated self-appointed shaman scholars started to invent the Sumerian Parthian theories and mixed with the older Hunnic and Turkic theories. From the 1960s the Ural-Altaic theory was not accepted anymore, even the existence altaic group was questioned by scholars.
6th phase from 1970: The anti-finno-ugrian turanism was born. You belong to this modern stage of turanism. This was the first time when finno-ugric relationhip was questioned by turanists.






So, "neo-Cuman days" as you call it, with the idea of Turkifying Hungary from the inside, that is not a conspiracy, but discussing various bias in academia or in history is a conspiracy? Do you understand how that sounds?
Neo Cumans and neo-cuman identity exist in Cumania Kunság region, despite the real cumans were exterminated during the long Turkish war. Why do you try to deny it?
We have talked about this already. I disagree with you, that all of the Cumans were killed to the very last man, woman and child. Also, allow me to entertain you. Really. Let us pretend that every Cuman was exterminated from the planet during this time. It does not change anything about our own Turkic past before our settlement. It also does not change the genetic imprint they had on various areas of Hungary. Or do you think that Cumans and Hungarians never shared the same tent on some occasions? lol


Huge controversy: „Let us pretend that every Cuman was exterminated from the planet” „our own Turkic past before our settlement. „
Yes it changes, because you neo-cumanians live in an ideological ghetto, in a bubble of sub-culture, a small parallel universe, where the word „turkic” has positive meaning, until the general Hungarian population, the average Hungarians don't really make difference between gysies and Central Asians.
It Change because many of you try to project this local feeling and parallel universe to a whole country and a whole nation. It is not conspiracy, but ignoracy in history.






Regardless, your statements about Cumans (inaccurate) are just a distraction tactic. At Kurultaj, there are no "Cuman" flags, but only fellow Turkic and Magyar flags from the past and present day. Or maybe they are trying to supplant us? But wait, they are not even "Cumans", but a mix of confused/ignorant/conspiring Hungarians/Romanians or whatever else you feel like including in their genetics at the time. Honestly, you can rage against "Cumans" all you'd like, it doesn't change our own Turkic past.


There are no cuman flags in Hungary, and you forget that your traditional eastern european neo-cuman culture had no ties with the Central European Hungarians, you are just Hungarian speaker balkanites, a slided out and protruded Balkan on the body of Hungary and Hungarian culture.




However you can see on all internationalEnglish language forums video portals, that anti-Hungarian Serbians Romanians Slovaks always support the turanist lunatic believers. Because they know its magic to discredit Hungarians in Europe (Like in the era of Trianon, when Benes and the little-Entente used it successfully against Hungarians.
This is the actual dangerous idea. Nobody takes those comments seriously, but your idea of discarding the truth about our origins is what gives us zero credibility to the land we have in Europe.


Nobody takes it seriously? Why? Because your speudo-scientific turan fantasy proved to be very dangerous and effective tool in the hands of little Entente leaders?


To you, we are all basically Germans speaking a non-Germanic language. Remember when I asked you "what is a Hungarian?" and your answer excluded about 90% of the country? What do you think will happen to all those non-Transdubanian Magyars and their territory? But maybe you do not care, as they are not "real Hungarians".
Fortunatelly you are wrong, Neo-Cumans are small minority of the country, even with the mixed dowtown areas of Budapest you are very far from the majority.




It is sad, as you are Székely as well so you claim. This embodies even more Turkic tradition in both fact and myth, and you discard it to bend and scrape for the safety of the West that doesn't even give a shit about you. Hungarians are a wall against invaders for centuries, we are the bastion that takes every sling and arrow and we have nothing. No country has tried to be more "European" than us, with so little to show for it. You are not stupid, you know how we are portrayed in the west today, and it has nothing to do with "Turanism" but rather our lack of "European values". When will you stop kissing the hand that smacks your face? We don't live in the time of Adolf Hitler where being the "whitest" person means something like the difference between going to a gas chamber or not. Our unique culture and origin, which only offers us a precious place of refuge and spirit, is somehow bad? These stupid semantics about Orthodox or "balloon heads" is cute and fun until the EU comes knocking on our door for the kilo of flesh it demands from the "big bad Hungarians" who are so "backward" in every century.


Wrong again. As Blogen pointed out there is no proof for Turkic origin of Székelys, their dialects have Western Hungarian origin fro Transdanubia, and they had the smallest ammount of turkic substratum.
The racial superiority and cultural superiority of white people over non-white (negroid mongoloid etc...) was not born in the days of Adolf Hitler, it was born in the 15th century in the era of great dicoveries. It based on MERIT SYSTEM, where nations races were compared in contribution in innovations and inventions, scientific, economic, cultral development, infrastructure and level of civiliazation. And be sure that your Central Asian Turkic people were on black African (negro) level in this MERIT SYSTEM. You can't even name a single relevant turkic invention, which was not adopted but invented by Turkic people.




Nobody is saying to hate the last 1000 years; we rise up time and time again and refuse to be "taken" quietly into the darkness. Take your honor being descended of the border guards, and how we stood alone and still stand alone today in the face of EU disdain. Your unhealthy sprint towards westernization would make us the losers in this game of EU assimilation, just like it would have during the Hapsburg monarchy. Does Trianon hurt? Of course it hurts. But it is just soil, and the nation is the people who are Hungarians, and I do not believe in magical soil. Just like the times of old, the Hungarian nation is wherever our tents find a place to be set on this green earth. Such a unique history we have in this world. For the love of everything Hungarian, stand up for it with pride.







Why do you try to mix 21th century EU politics with the genetic or linguistic origin of Hungarians?


I will answer to you offtopic comment too.
"No nation has friends only interests”
This saying remained an eternal truth in all periods of history.


The „Eastern Turn” of Jobbik and Fidesz was an economic disaster, nobody can form any profitable working political economic alliance with backward landlocked Central Asian countries or Eastern Asia thousands and thousands of miles away from Central Europe. The Eastern turn was a disaster for Hungarian economic diplomacy, because Western economic powers already had very strong ties with Eastern countries since they made their „Eastern turn” economic policy many decades before Hungary. And we couldn't compete with industry and economics of big western countries on this markets. There are no friendship in business, it is also an eternal truth.




"It grows larger every year"
When I make an argument about the number of people who show up, it is not to prove "it is right", it is to counter your claims that it is "small and not significant". You are again, ascribing a point that I am not making.
And how much people have university degree in the cumanian turan days? 1%? 0.5%? ))) Typical.
...and here I thought that you were learning your logical fallacies? Here, a wikipedia link (that people seem to love to source from so much lol) about the fallacy you just committed:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

You must also read the Argument from Authroity, here: https://a.te.ervelesi.hibad.hu/tekintelyre-hivatkozas
because it is about the opinion of non-expert not scientist authority. For example: a famous monarch's or religious leaders quotes and opinion in scientific debate. Or a famous physicist opinion on literature.
tekintélyre hivatkozás
Mit tettél?
Azt mondtad, hogy egy állítás igaz/hamis, mert egy vagy több elismert vagy magas rangú személy vagy társaság ezt mondta.
Miért hibás az érvelésed?
Egy elismert tekintély véleménye önmagában nem bizonyíték egy állítás helyessége vagy helytelensége mellett, nem utolsó sorban azért, mert az elismert személy vagy szervezet is tévedhet: alakíthat ki álláspontot téves vagy hiányos adatok alapján ill. helytelen következtetések mentén. Ugyanakkor érdemes megjegyezni, hogy ez az érvelés nem fordítható a visszájára, azaz például egy szaktekintély állítása egy laikuséval szemben nem vonható kétségbe pusztán azon az alapon, hogy a szaktekintély is tévedhet.






But yes, as usual, I will entertain this from you as well. When you begin your own event "Stears True Magyar Days", you can admit only those who have multiple degrees, so you can brag to me that 100% of those who attend have academic credits. What will you all do there? Make online accounts and post about how much you don't like craftsmen? lol, very productive for our culture. Kurultaj is a growing experience in all facets: athletics, academics, spirituality and culture. But most importantly, with our international Turkic family to strengthen awareness of our roots.


Which brings me to this statement from you...
This international turkic brotherhood of Gábor Vona reminds me the Jobbik's version of internationalism. Turanism: They way from proletarian internationalism to turkic internationalism.
Turkic internationalism has nothing to do about communist economics, but economic improvement in general. Even historically and to this very day, the Hungarian Turanism Organization was only focused on the following:


"Turáni Társaság célja az egész turánság, vagyis a magyar nemzet és a velünk rokon többi európai és ázsiai népek kulturális és gazdasági előrehaladása, tömörülése, erősödése, úgymint az ázsiai kontinens földrajzi, néprajzi, gazdasági stb. kutatása múltban és jelenben. Politikai és felekezeti kérdések kizártak. Céljait a nem turáni népekkel egyetértve óhajtja elérni."


"The goal of Turanian Society is the cultural and economic progress, confederation, flourishment of all Turanians, i.e. the Hungarian nation and all kindred European and Asian nations, furthermore the geographical, ethnographical, economical etc. research of the Asian continent, past and present. Political and religious issues are excluded. It wishes to accomplish its objectives in agreement with non-Turanian nations."


But even your traditional turanists considered the turkic people very very distant relatives, and their main concern was the finno-ugric theory.




You do not represent or refute these statements in good faith, because you do not wish to be associated with these peoples. To an extent, that's fine. Nobody will chain you to a horse and take you to Kurultaj to have fun enjoying the day. You should be free to associate and disassociate as you please. But you're misrepresenting the entire idea, and that is the issue. It is also very noticeable and only hurts your "argument", though it changes frequently.

I already refuted them in the previous comments ( ecoonomically politically and scientifically.)






I speak about horses in general. 90% of peasants did not have Horses in Hungary,because horses were expensive that's why peasants used oxen to plow before the early 20th century.
You are again, cleverly attempting to blur the topic. Horses are valuable for transportation and combat. You do not see our ancestors riding oxen into battle or for transportation. Oxen do not need training and are stocky and strong, so they are much better plowing than horses, usually. The larger horses would come in time to be used in combat as our tactics became western. Your own lack of Hungarian equestrianism knowledge might be showing, because you would know that there are different horses for different roles in combat and field work. We used lighter, more agile horses in order to skirmish and for horse archery, while the west used a larger, muscular horse, the "destrier", for their military tactics because their offensive charge was based on the knight and heavy cavalry. It was not until we became more westernized that we adopted this style of combat with heavy destrier horses as well, which was of course reserved for the knightly elite. Before this, we fought in loose lines without solid divisions to be commanded and that required a smaller, more agile horse to accomplish.



Hungarian commoners had not horses in medieval early modern Hungary. Only the very rich, the warrior class the nobles had horses that time.
Your ancestors were peasants or shepherds (in cumania shepherds were the majority until the 19th century, and shepherds were literally goat fuckers from Western Europe to china)


Unlike you dear shepherd or villain descendent boy, I have noble origin, who rode on horseback.
Isn't it funny that you try to come up with horse riding????


Again, your ancesators were servants without horses.... Deal with it dear goat fucker shepherd descendant neo-cuman.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Hungarian commoners had not horses in medieval early modern Hungary.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Stears]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Illiterate Gypsy monkey, your opinion has no importance.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Stears: "Hungarian commoners had not horses in medieval early modern Hungary."

Reallity:

http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/26/25006/0001.1.jpg

[Stears]

Stears: "Hungarian commoners had not horses in medieval early modern Hungary."

Reallity:



What is that stupid photo from the 11th century?

Only balkanites and turks had such primitive armours in early modern period.

Commoners were not warriors in Hungary

Franks became equestrian military power, they were the first in Europe who used heavy cavalry (the knights) close to exclusively , which helped them to conquer much of their bulk empire. Do you think that the successor states Germans and French commoner peasants became horse riding people because of their Frankish noble overlords?


So according to Vlatko Vukovic's retarded logic, German and French medieval peasants were horse riding people.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

So according to Vlatko Vukovic's retarded logic, German and French medieval peasants were horse riding people.

No. They were far different from the Hungarian army and military traditions. Why you are ashamed of your Eurasian traditions? Why you are ashamed of Magyar Steppe horse-riders? Why you are ashamed of ancient Magyar religion - TENGRISM ? You just have tendencies to represent Hungary such it is France and Germany, which can not be truth. I can't believe that there is someone who believes that people who came from Eurasia were clearly white Caucasoid Europeans.

[Stears]

No. They were far different from the Hungarian army and military traditions. Why you are ashamed of your Eurasian traditions? Why you are ashamed of Magyar Steppe horse-riders? Why you are ashamed of ancient Magyar religion - TENGRISM ? You just have tendencies to represent Hungary such it is France and Germany, which can not be truth. I can't believe that there is someone who believes that people who came from Eurasia were clearly white Caucasoid Europeans.

Do not lie! Frankish armies based on cavalry.
Read:
https://books.google.com/books?id=lvWNAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT317&dq=Frankish+army+%22heavy+cavalry%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9pJ-ZwrXZAhUrKsAKHVqZBp8Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Frankish%20army%20%22heavy%20cavalry%22&f=false

I do not belive that most people of your country (except the Croatian origin people) belong to the true white people. Because your majority simply do not look white, but a mix.

[chyyris]

Do not lie! Frankish armies based on cavalry.
Read:
https://books.google.com/books?id=lvWNAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT317&dq=Frankish+army+%22heavy+cavalry%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9pJ-ZwrXZAhUrKsAKHVqZBp8Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Frankish%20army%20%22heavy%20cavalry%22&f=false

I do not belive that most people of your country (except the Croatian origin people) belong to the true white people. Because your majority simply do not look white, but a mix.

Bosniaks are lighter on average than Bosnian and Herzegovinian Croats.

[blogen]

No. They were far different from the Hungarian army and military traditions. Why you are ashamed of your Eurasian traditions? Why you are ashamed of Magyar Steppe horse-riders? Why you are ashamed of ancient Magyar religion - TENGRISM ? You just have tendencies to represent Hungary such it is France and Germany, which can not be truth. I can't believe that there is someone who believes that people who came from Eurasia were clearly white Caucasoid Europeans.

Because he is not Hungarian. Even his Hungarian lingual skills are unperfect! He is a mentally challenged troll, who speaks Hungarian only. Maybe a Slovak, or Romanian from Hungarian speaking environment.

[Jana]

Because he is not Hungarian. Even his Hungarian lingual skills are unperfect! He is a mentally challenged troll, who speaks Hungarian only. Maybe a Slovak, or Romanian from Hungarian speaking environment.

Lies! He is Hungarian, but he half Szekely (they are Hungarians too)

I don't agree with what he writes, but he is still Hungarian! Hungarians are know for being highly individualistic.

[Jana]

Bosniaks are lighter on average than Bosnian and Herzegovinian Croats.

They aren't, BiH Croats are not only Herzegovians (and Bosniaks are Herzegovians too). Charlestoon Coon:

''The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavic and a pre-Turkish racial configuration more completely than do the partisans of Orthodoxy or Islam.''

[Stears]

Because he is not Hungarian. Even his Hungarian lingual skills are unperfect! He is a mentally challenged troll, who speaks Hungarian only. Maybe a Slovak, or Romanian from Hungarian speaking environment.

You speak Slovakian infected Imperfect dialect of Hungarian. It is very strange for Hungarians who grew up in Hungary. Nagyon magyartalanul fogalmazol, dehát mégis mire számíthatnánk egy olyan embertől, aki szlovákok között nőtt fel szórvány kisebbségiként mint te ?(talán félig - meddig szlovák is vagy valójában)

[blogen]

Lies! He is Hungarian, but he half Szekely (they are Hungarians too)

I don't agree with what he writes, but he is still Hungarian! Hungarians are know for being highly individualistic.

Really?

[Stears]

Turulkám, sikerült már megemésztened, hogy a kunsági materiális kultúrátok és társadalomfejlődésetek merőben (azaz elég durván) idegen a közép-európai magyar kultúrához képest? Művelődj! http://tet.rkk.hu/index.php/TeT/article/view/98/195
Érdekes erre sosem tudsz mit írni.... Erről nálad mindig nagy a csend...

[Stears]

Really?

We Hungarians are not collectivist Slovaks like you....

[Rethel]

We Hungarians are not collectivist Slovaks like you....

So why are you building your identity on the base of the collective? :picard1:



It was rethorical.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I do not belive that most people of your country (except the Croatian origin people) belong to the true white people. Because your majority simply do not look white, but a mix.

Hahahhah, only uneducated psycho can say that Bosnian Croats are lighter than Bosniaks. Almost all of them are dark-haired AND dark-eyed Dinarids while Bosniaks are used to be THE LIGHTEST balkan people (if we don't include Slavonian Croats).

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They aren't, BiH Croats are not only Herzegovians (and Bosniaks are Herzegovians too). Charlestoon Coon:

''The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavic and a pre-Turkish racial configuration more completely than do the partisans of Orthodoxy or Islam.''

Croats who live in Herzegowina are maybe the darkest ones. By the way great majority of Croats live in Herzegowina.

[Jana]

Croats who live in Herzegowina are maybe the darkest ones. By the way great majority of Croats live in Herzegowina.

They are not any darker than Herzegovina Serbs or Herzegovina Bosniaks, and they are def. lighter than Sandzak Bosniaks.
Significant amount of Herzegovina Croats are Posavina and central Bosnian Croats who have been exiled during war.

[Jana]

Hahahhah, only uneducated psycho can say that Bosnian Croats are lighter than Bosniaks. Almost all of them are dark-haired AND dark-eyed Dinarids while Bosniaks are used to be THE LIGHTEST balkan people (if we don't include Slavonian Croats).

That's not true.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They are not any darker than Herzegovina Serbs or Herzegovina Bosniaks, and they are def. lighter than Sandzak Bosniaks.
Significant amount of Herzegovina Croats are Posavina and central Bosnian Croats who have been exiled during war.

Problem is that majority of Bosiaks live in triangle Sarajevo-Tuzla-Zenica (include Bihać, Cazin). Be just real, are they lighter than Herzegowinian people?

[Jana]

Really?

Yes, I swear!

He is maybe bit nazi (but he don't want admit that) He don't like darker Hungarians with eurasian features and he somewhow feel that it would make him less European if Hungarians aren't exactly Germans.

In the summer I show him Vojvodina Hungarians who my family friends, they pure Magyars but they really have eurasian looks, he said they are Bulgarians or Romanians !

:(

[Jana]

Problem is that majority of Bosiaks live in triangle Sarajevo-Tuzla-Zenica (include Bihać, Cazin). Be just real, are they lighter than Herzegowinian people?

They are for sure. I know Boniaks have lot of light haired people!

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They are for sure. I know Boniaks have lot of light haired people!

And that's what i said. Stears wrote that Bosnian Croats are lighter and "true white people" in comparison to others which is incorrect.

[Stears]

Yes, I swear!

He is maybe bit nazi (but he don't want admit that) He don't like darker Hungarians with eurasian features and he somewhow feel that it would make him less European if Hungarians aren't exactly Germans.

In the summer I show him Vojvodina Hungarians who my family friends, they pure Magyars but they really have eurasian looks, he said they are Bulgarians or Romanians !

:(


In Hungary Eurasian features often means recent migrants, like gypsies. The very best example of Turanian look is the picture of the communist Béla Kun Government of 1919, mostly they were Jewish , but semitic features are relatively rare among Hungarian Jews, they are mostly turanid.:

http://hunhir.info/hir_kepek/kommun-terroristai-.jpg

http://www.delmagyar.hu/133_napon_at_tarto_kulonos_alom/cikk/210/2092123/4.jpg

[Stears]

Yes, I swear!

He is maybe bit nazi (but he don't want admit that) He don't like darker Hungarians with eurasian features and he somewhow feel that it would make him less European if Hungarians aren't exactly Germans.

In the summer I show him Vojvodina Hungarians who my family friends, they pure Magyars but they really have eurasian looks, he said they are Bulgarians or Romanians !

:(

Pure magyars in Voivodine? Are you kidding my darling?

[Jana]

Pure magyars in Voivodine? Are you kidding my darling?

You know them, I showed you them!

Remember ?

:)

[Jana]

And that's what i said. Stears wrote that Bosnian Croats are lighter and "true white people" in comparison to others which is incorrect.

I know :)

[Bosniensis]

So finally we have came to conclusion that Hungarians are Turks.

What are we gonna do about those barbarians?

[Jana]

So finally we have came to conclusion that Hungarians are Turks.

What are we gonna do about those barbarians?

They are not Turks and Bosnian culture much closer to Turkish, than Hungarian is.

how about that ?

[Stears]

You know them, I showed you them!

Remember ?

:)

They were weird if you compare them with Hungarians from Hungary.

[Jana]

They were weird if you compare them with Hungarians from Hungary.

Hungary not only Transdanubia.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They are not Turks and Bosnian culture much closer to Turkish, than Hungarian is.

Bosnian culture is much closer to Turkish (Anatolian), yes. But Hungarian is much closer to Turkic (Steppe horse riders). User Blogen explained it and the most important thing is that he is not ashamed of his roots. He has enough knowledge about Hungarian history to proclaim something.


So finally we have came to conclusion that Hungarians are Turks.

They are Ugric people, under hard Turkic influence in early medieval period.

[Stears]

So finally we have came to conclusion that Hungarians are Turks.

What are we gonna do about those barbarians?

There are no genetic or linguistic proof for that. Since Hungarians have the lowest ratio of eastern Mongoloid markers among former eastern block communist countries. Deal with it.

[Stears]

Bosnian culture is much closer to Turkish (Anatolian), yes. But Hungarian is much closer to Turkic (Steppe horse riders). User Blogen explained it and the most important thing is that he is not ashamed of his roots.



They are Ugric people, under hard Turkic influence in early medieval period.

You can read in many encyclopedias that Hungarian culture is closest to Austrian or Bavarian, so according to your weird logic, they are steppe cultures too...

[CommonSense]

The only real Hungarians in Hungary are Stears and Barbara Palvin. The rest are just gypsy Cumans ;)

[Jana]

Bosnian culture is much closer to Turkish (Anatolian), yes. But Hungarian is much closer to Turkic (Steppe horse riders). User Blogen explained it and the most important thing is that he is not ashamed of his roots. He has enough knowledge about Hungarian history to proclaim something
It's just folklore, but everyday culture far from that.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

You can read in many encyclopedias that Hungarian culture is closest to Austrian or Bavarian, so according to your weird logic, they are steppe cultures too...

I said early medieval culture. Magyars invade Europe as Steppe horse riders. That's the fact what everyone knows. Modern Hungary and old Magyars are different things.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

It's just folklore, but everyday culture far from that.

More than that. Turkic linguistical influence is very common in Hungarian language. (Don't say Bosniaks have it, most of "Turkic" loanwords in our language are of Persian origin, such as Saraj-evo itself)

[Ülev]

evo je Saraj, but what does "Saraj" means in Persian?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

evo je Saraj, but what does "Saraj" means in Persian?

Grad, miasto :D

[Stears]

The only real Hungarians in Hungary are Stears and Barbara Palvin. The rest are just gypsy Cumans ;)

Average Serbians don't really look European if we compare them with Hungarians... It is no wonder, your genetics is also less European.

[Jana]

More than that. Turkic linguistical influence is very common in Hungarian language. (Don't say Bosniaks have it, most of "Turkic" loanwords in our language are of Persian origin, such as Saraj-evo itself)

I think most of Magyars proud of their eastern roots :)

But for culture I really can't say that. Hungary feels very ''European''

[CommonSense]

Average Serbians don't really look European if we compare them with Hungarians... It is no wonder, your genetics is also less European.

You're lighter than us, we are not ashamed to admit that. If you thought that remark would make me angry or annoyed, you were mistaken. Keep on thinking that every citizen of your country or Hungarians from Serbia and Romania who don't meet your standards are not ethnically Hungarian, it's funny as fuck.

[Mingle]

I said early medieval culture. Magyars invade Europe as Steppe horse riders. That's the fact what everyone knows. Modern Hungary and old Magyars are different things.The Old Hungarians were half-Mongoloid Steppe people. Modern day ones don't share any similarity with them except in their language.

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[Bosniensis]

There are no genetic or linguistic proof for that. Since Hungarians have the lowest ratio of eastern Mongoloid markers among former eastern block communist countries. Deal with it.

R1a steppe horsefuckers xD

Admixture doesn’t matter mang

Get out of Europe NOW! OUT!


J/k


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[Bosniensis]

I think most of Magyars proud of their eastern roots :)

But for culture I really can't say that. Hungary feels very ''European''

They stole European culture they are horsefuckers from steppe


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[Vlatko Vukovic]

R1a steppe horsefuckers xD

Admixture doesn’t matter mang

Get out of Europe NOW! OUT!


J/k


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R1a doesn't mean horse rider. A lot number of Scandinavians are R1a.

[Bosniensis]

R1a doesn't mean horse rider. A lot number of Scandinavians are R1a.

They settled down from horse.

Abandoned nomadic life and became Scandinavians.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

They settled down from horse.

Abandoned nomadic life and became Scandinavians.

That's the same with all Europeans. Latin language is Indo-European language. These "Horsefuckers" brought it to your Roman Empire.

[Bosniensis]

That's the same with all Europeans. Latin language is Indo-European language. These "Horsefuckers" brought it to your Roman Empire.

Hahahhahaahahahhsha

IJ haplogroup and E haplogroups are not IE

THEY invented almost all European languages not R people


Rofl

Germanic and Turkic people standardized their languages in 12 th century ad before that. They could not speak or barely


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[Vlatko Vukovic]

Hahahhahaahahahhsha

IJ haplogroup and E haplogroups are not IE

THEY invented almost all European languages not R people


Rofl

Germanic and Turkic people standardized their languages in 12 th century ad before that. They could not speak or barely


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The fact is: Latin language, which was spoken in Rome belongs to Indo-European language family. Every nation in Europe is speaking the language of those "horse fuckers" except Basques, Magyars and Finns.


THEY invented almost all European languages not R people

They invented yes, but they adopt R1 language (Latin) hehehehehehehehehehehe

[Bosniensis]

They invented yes, but they adopt R1 language (Latin) hehehehehehehehehehehe

Erm... NO.

That's what they wrote.

Latin language is Eboean Greek language, feel free to watch this video multiple times before you figure that out yourself:

Take note: You might not accept that imidietlly.. but eventually you will...

You are just not aware of the fact that Franks, Vikings, Lombards live in Italy today not Romans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a0ODTqPXkk

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Erm... NO.

That's what they wrote.

Latin language is Eboean Greek language, feel free to watch this video multiple times before you figure that out yourself:

Take note: You might not accept that imidietlly.. but eventually you will...

You are just not aware of the fact that Franks, Vikings, Lombards live in Italy today not Romans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a0ODTqPXkk

Your pseudo-science wouldn't lead you nowhere. Greek is Indo-European language, Latin is Indo-European language. Just admit it, they were stronger in that time than I people and forced them their language. Why is that so hard to admit? When some I men calls them "horsefuckers" and make fun of them i consider is as BUTTHURT. Maybe i am I2a too, but even if i am i don't have anything against Indo-European people. That's a part of my history, my country, my language came from them and we spend many time together with them. Everything other is butthurt.

[Jana]

That's the same with all Europeans. Latin language is Indo-European language. These "Horsefuckers" brought it to your Roman Empire.

proto-Latin came with R1b U152 for sure :)

[Bosniensis]

Your pseudo-science wouldn't lead you nowhere. Greek is Indo-European language, Latin is Indo-European language. Just admit it, they were stronger in that time than I people and forced them their language. Why is that so hard to admit? When some I men calls them "horsefuckers" and make fun of them i consider is as BUTTHURT. Maybe i am I2a too, but even if i am i don't have anything against Indo-European people. That's a part of my history, my country, my language came from them and we spend many time together with them. Everything other is butthurt.

I have spent 7 years learning history, reading abandoned almost scrapped books....

I am not butthurt, if you think I am wrong just take notice of everything I told you and you will see one day that I am 100% right.

"Indo-European".. LOL

Europeans were butchered by Franks, Vandals and other Non-European people.

[Sekkmer]

The only real Hungarians in Hungary are Stears and Barbara Palvin. The rest are just gypsy Cumans ;)

Danke

[Stears]

The Old Hungarians were half-Mongoloid Steppe people. Modern day ones don't share any similarity with them except in their language.

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It is only your pseudo-scientific fantasy, said by a clearly non-white man who belong to the weird looking brown-race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_(racial_classification)

[blogen]

The Old Hungarians were half-Mongoloid Steppe people. Modern day ones don't share any similarity with them except in their language.

Ok, the reality was totally different. The old Hungarians were mostly clear Europids, with an Europo-Mongoloid admixture elite, while at least 50% of the contemporary Hungarians are Europo-Mongoloid admixture. Yes, they are an dominantly Europid admixture, but a metised population, what metisation happened in here, in the last 1100 years. Racially there is a huge overlap between these two stage of the Magyars.

Anything other is baseless legends, mostly from the 19th century.

[Mingle]

Ok, the reality was totally different. The old Hungarians were mostly clear Europids, with an Europo-Mongoloid admixture elite, while at least 50% of the contemporary Hungarians are Europo-Mongoloid admixture. Yes, they are an dominantly Europid admixture, but a metised population, what metisation happened in here, in the last 1100 years. Racially there is a huge overlap between these two stage of the Magyars.

Anything other is baseless legends, mostly from the 19th century.

But the vast majority of Hungarians are genetically very close to Slovaks and Croats with maybe 5% (or 10% at most) DNA from the original Hungarians.

[blogen]

I think most of Magyars proud of their eastern roots :)
But for culture I really can't say that. Hungary feels very ''European''

The Eurasian cultural traditions are basically extint from the Hungarian common culture since the urbanization eradicted the folklore in the second half of the 20th century. The renaissance of the cultural eurasianism between the Magyars (Kurultáj for example) are a new identity search between the frames of the urbanized culture.

[blogen]

But the vast majority of Hungarians are genetically very close to Slovaks and Croats with maybe 5% (or 10% at most) DNA from the original Hungarians.

Not. At least 20-25% of the contemporary Hungarians are genetically close to the steppic populations from the last 2-3000 years. Hovewer, these populations were dominantly Eastern Europeans genetically, since they were Europids racially before the Mongoloid Turks arrived to the steppe!

[Mingle]

Not. At least 20-25% of the contemporary Hungarians are genetically close to the steppic populations from the last 2-3000 years. Hovewer, these populations were dominantly Eastern Europeans genetically, since they were Europids racially before the Mongoloid Turks arrived to the steppe!

I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you get the 20-25% number from? Are there any GEDmatch results of Old Hungarians? Would they have been closest to Mansis genetically?

[Stears]

Ok, the reality was totally different. The old Hungarians were mostly clear Europids, with an Europo-Mongoloid admixture elite, while at least 50% of the contemporary Hungarians are Europo-Mongoloid admixture. Yes, they are an dominantly Europid admixture, but a metised population, what metisation happened in here, in the last 1100 years. Racially there is a huge overlap between these two stage of the Magyars.

Anything other is baseless legends, mostly from the 19th century.

Hello slovak turan monkey! Szlovák szórvány rusnya kevercse...

This is not supported by any automomal genetic researches or anthropological evidence. The hope dies last.... Doesn't it? Maybe the evil geneticist scientists conspired globally against your turan fantasy.....

[Stears]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you get the 20-25% number from? Are there any GEDmatch results of Old Hungarians? Would they have been closest to Mansis genetically?

Pasthun people look like gypsies, so it is no wonder that you belong to the brown race.

[Mingle]

Pasthun people look like gypsies, so it is no wonder that you belong to the brown race.

You are genetically almost identical to Slovaks, deal with it.

Gypsies are very far from us and any resemblances are superficial. Yes, we belong to the brown race and you guys belong to the Eastern European (Slavo-Balkan) race :)

[Rethel]

Grad, miasto :D

When I learned foreign languages, they taught me, that saraj looks like that: :laugh:


https://samostroy74.ru/images/Images/Architektura/Sarai/Sarai_1.jpg

[blogen]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you get the 20-25% number from? Are there any GEDmatch results of Old Hungarians?

The YDNA haplotypes for example:

Here are 488 random sample. (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project?iframe=yresults) This is an inappropriate statistics of course, because the sampling was not systematic from an area and totally subjective in space and time. Hovewer, 488 is much more than nothing.

The results: 118 persons, 24.1% R1a
- 4 persons, 0,8% R1a Z93
- 55 persons, 11,2% R1a Z280

So, almost half of the Hungarian R1a is potentially steppe related.

Other interesting results:
- 18 persons, 3,6% R1b M269 (proto-Aryan steppe R1b)
- 13 persons, 2,6% G2a (Caucasian subgrups)
- 10 persons, 2% Q
- 8 persons, 1,6% N (the non Balto-Slavic subgrups)
- 1 persons, 0,2% C

So at least 22% of the Y-DNA lineages are potentially conqueror Magyar origin types.

The situation is similar at the mtDNA samples!

Hungarian conqueror common peoples:
http://s27.postimg.org/delv3vndv/a_honfoglalas_kori_es_a_ma_elo_mgyar_populaciok_mt dns_haplocsoportjai.jpg

Hungarian conqueror elite:
https://s23.postimg.org/amxwic62z/rasko04.jpg

Or an another study with different samples:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/MtDNA_haplogroup_frequencies_of_Hungarians_and_oth ers.png/800px-MtDNA_haplogroup_frequencies_of_Hungarians_and_oth ers.png


Would they have been closest to Mansis genetically?

The Ob-Ugric peoples are much more distant from their ancient ancestors, than us!

[Proto-Shaman]

(Don't say Bosniaks have it, most of "Turkic" loanwords in our language are of Persian origin, such as Saraj-evo itself)
Many Persian "loans" into Turkic are envolved backformations from Proto-Turkic presence in the near east.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Many Persian "loans" into Turkic are envolved backformations from Proto-Turkic presence in the near east.

Anyways, I don't think it's the case with our Persian loanwords.

[Proto-Shaman]

proto-Latin came with R1b U152 for sure :)
So why don't Bashkirs speak Latin then?

[Proto-Shaman]

Hovewer, these populations were dominantly Eastern Europeans genetically, since they were Europids racially before the Mongoloid Turks arrived to the steppe!
This is your own fantasy.

[Proto-Shaman]

The YDNA haplotypes for example:

The situation is similar at the mtDNA samples!

Hungarian conqueror common peoples:
http://s27.postimg.org/delv3vndv/a_honfoglalas_kori_es_a_ma_elo_mgyar_populaciok_mt dns_haplocsoportjai.jpg

Hungarian conqueror elite:
https://s23.postimg.org/amxwic62z/rasko04.jpg

Or an another study with different samples:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/MtDNA_haplogroup_frequencies_of_Hungarians_and_oth ers.png/800px-MtDNA_haplogroup_frequencies_of_Hungarians_and_oth ers.png

The Ob-Ugric peoples are much more distant from their ancient ancestors, than us!
Don't forget the 10th century autosomal Hungarian mtDNA Turko-Subartu results :)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

So why don't Bashkirs speak Latin then?

R1b is a mixture of many kind people. They brought IE languages to Europe, but also those like Basque, while R1a brought only IE languages.

[Proto-Shaman]

R1b is a mixture of many kind people. They brought IE languages to Europe, but also those like Basque, while R1a brought only IE languages.
Wrong, R1b brought non-IE AGGLUTINATIVE languages into Europe, Basque and Bashkirs are the last remnants. Celtic is agglutinative, too, a totally non-IE feature. R1a in India is Scytho-Turkic not IE. The same can be said about R1a M458 in Eastern Europe and Finno-Ugric Z280!

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Wrong, R1b brought non-IE AGGLUTINATIVE languages into Europe, Basque and Bashkirs are the last remnants. Celtic is agglutinative, too, a totally non-IE feature. R1a in India is Scytho-Turkic not IE. The same can be said about R1a M458 in Eastern Europe and Finno-Ugric Z280!

Z280 isn't just finno-ugric but also Balto-Slavic.

Z280 and M458 could be considered as "Turkic" only in brain-dead countries.

[Bobby Martnen]

:picard2:

R1ETHELITES WUZ KANGZ N SHEEEEEEIT

[Jana]

So why don't Bashkirs speak Latin then?

U152 isn't in important percentage among Baskhirs to my knowledge

[Bobby Martnen]

There are even Australoids with R1b and with I1:


Almost certainly, their direct paternal line traces back to a man from the British Isles within the last 2 centuries.

[Bosniensis]

R1b is a mixture of many kind people. They brought IE languages to Europe, but also those like Basque, while R1a brought only IE languages.

Both R1a and R1b are steppe people who settled in Celtic Europe (by conquering it) post 4th century A.D

They conquered.

1. Germania
2. Gaul (then named it France9
3. Italy (then named it Lombardy then Italy again)
4. Britain (also killed Celts)

etc...

Latin language was invented by Pre-Lombard, Frankish, Norman Italians. Those people are minority in Italy nowdays.

Europe was I1, I2, J2, E1, G2 = R isn't European.

[Bobby Martnen]

Becasue of TAtardism.

:picard2:

[Bobby Martnen]

Illiterate Gypsy monkey, your opinion has no importance.

:taliban:

[Jana]

Both R1a and R1b are steppe people who settled in Celtic Europe (by conquering it) post 4th century A.D

R1 came to Europe several tousand years before Christ, and Celtic languages spread from them.

Modern English have more Celtic than Germanic ancestry, not to mention other Brits.

You're stupid as *** :picard2:

[Bosniensis]

R1 came to Europe several tousand years before Christ, and Celtic languages spread from them.

Modern English have more Celtic than Germanic ancestry, not to mention other Brits.

You're stupid as *** :picard2:

which R1 is germanic and which one isn't?

[Jana]

which R1 is germanic and which one isn't?

R1b U106 (S21) is Germanic.

R1b U152 (S23) is Celto-Italic and Gaulish.

R1b L21 is insular Celtic (Brittonic)

R1b DF27 is Celtiberian.

[Turul Karom]

R1b U106 (S21) is Germanic.

R1b U152 (S23) is Celto-Italic and Gaulish.

R1b L21 is insular Celtic (Brittonic)

R1b DF27 is Celtiberian.

My map from earlier shows U106 in Kazakhstan, and the separate Russian link from earlier talking about L10's founder effect spread into the west.

Thoughts?

[Jana]

My map from earlier shows U106 in Kazakhstan, and the separate Russian link from earlier talking about L10's founder effect spread into the west.

Thoughts?

Ofcourse, all R1b /R1a ultimately come from the east/steppe.

Did you read new paper about Langobards in Panonnia and Italy ? They had lot of R1b U106.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Both R1a and R1b are steppe people who settled in Celtic Europe (by conquering it) post 4th century A.D

They conquered.

1. Germania
2. Gaul (then named it France9
3. Italy (then named it Lombardy then Italy again)
4. Britain (also killed Celts)

etc...

Latin language was invented by Pre-Lombard, Frankish, Norman Italians. Those people are minority in Italy nowdays.

Europe was I1, I2, J2, E1, G2 = R isn't European.

Latin language come from the same language as Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Iranic, Indic and other IE languages. Latin language has the same roots as those languages, and anyone who deny it is butthurt.

Latin language = Indo European

Celtic language = Indo European

[Bosniensis]

Latin language come from the same language as Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Iranic, Indic and other IE languages. Latin language has the same roots as those languages, and anyone who deny it is butthurt.

Latin language = Indo European

Celtic language = Indo European

lol

[Vlatko Vukovic]

R1b U106 (S21) is Germanic.

R1b U152 (S23) is Celto-Italic and Gaulish.

R1b L21 is insular Celtic (Brittonic)

R1b DF27 is Celtiberian.

You forgot Scandinavian R1a. They participated in Germanic ethnognesis.

[Jana]

You forgot Scandinavian R1a. They participated in Germanic ethnognesis.

I2a2 did too (+I1 ofc), they found a lot of it among medieval Langobards. R1a in Scandinavia is unique, because other Germanics lack it. So it is more north Germanic than pan-Germanic, I think.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

lol

That's truth, that's proven by every single linguist in worlda and you know it as well, that Latin language cognate with all other IE languages, just don't want to admire that Romans spoke the language of (how you call them) "horse fuckers", like whole Europe do (except Magyars, Finns and Basques).

[Bosniensis]

That's truth, that's proven by every single linguist in worlda and you know it as well, that Latin language cognate with all other IE languages, just don't want to admire that Romans spoke the language of (how you call them) "horse fuckers", like whole Europe do (except Magyars, Finns and Basques).

Every single R1 linguist


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[Vlatko Vukovic]

Every single R1 linguist


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Linguistics was stuided a long before genetic-haplogroup-trace existed. So they didn't know surely who is R1 and who is not when they PROVED that Latin is Indo-European language. Just admit this fact. No one can't deny it. You want to make linguistical distance between Roman Empire and Germanic barbarians, but you can't. Their languages has same roots.

[Bosniensis]

Linguistics was stuided a long before genetic-haplogroup-trace existed. So they didn't know surely who is R1 and who is not when they PROVED that Latin is Indo-European language. Just admit this fact. No one can't deny it. You want to make linguistical distance between Roman Empire and Germanic barbarians, but you can't. Their languages has same roots.

Well I can confirm that after Lombards (North Germanic tribe) conquered Italy they have started embracing Latin words into their Germanic language, also Franks (who were Germanic conquerors of Gaul) also started mixing Latin words with their Germanic language (cause Franks are West Germanic Tribe).

I don't know How could they invent Latin when they spoke Germanic languages, and even modern French and Italian are Germanic derivatives... they call them "Romance" cause they are "Latin influenced"

Latin language is dead language, and if they were Romans they would have been speaking Greek not Germanic Romance Languages.

[Bosniensis]

Linguistics was stuided a long before genetic-haplogroup-trace existed. So they didn't know surely who is R1 and who is not when they PROVED that Latin is Indo-European language. Just admit this fact. No one can't deny it. You want to make linguistical distance between Roman Empire and Germanic barbarians, but you can't. Their languages has same roots.

Well I can confirm that after Lombards (North Germanic tribe) conquered Italy they have started embracing Latin words into their Germanic language, also Franks (who were Germanic conquerors of Gaul) also started mixing Latin words with their Germanic language (cause Franks are West Germanic Tribe).

I don't know How could they invent Latin when they spoke Germanic languages, and even modern French and Italian are Germanic derivatives... they call them "Romance" cause they are "Latin influenced"

Latin language is dead language, and if they were Romans they would have been speaking Greek not Germanic Romance Languages.

The closest language to Latin is Romanian, very good Latin grammar.

[Bosniensis]

Roman Opinion of Modern Italians:

https://i.imgur.com/191R7bV.png

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Well I can confirm that after Lombards (North Germanic tribe) conquered Italy they have started embracing Latin words into their Germanic language, also Franks (who were Germanic conquerors of Gaul) also started mixing Latin words with their Germanic language (cause Franks are West Germanic Tribe).

I don't know How could they invent Latin when they spoke Germanic languages, and even modern French and Italian are Germanic derivatives... they call them "Romance" cause they are "Latin influenced"

Latin language is dead language, and if they were Romans they would have been speaking Greek not Germanic Romance Languages.

The closest language to Latin is Romanian, very good Latin grammar.

Bos. "moje", Lat. "mea", German. "mein", English "mine", Irish "mo", Lithuanian "mano", Russian "мой"

You can see that word is of same origin in every of those languages. Then compare it to, for example Turkish: "benim" and you will see that's obviously different branch.

You can see reconstructions of proto-Italic, proto-Celtic, proto-Germani, proto-Balto-Slavic and compare it each other, you will see, that they are indeed of same linguistical branch.

[ButlerKing]

Wrong, R1b brought non-IE AGGLUTINATIVE languages into Europe, Basque and Bashkirs are the last remnants. Celtic is agglutinative, too, a totally non-IE feature. R1a in India is Scytho-Turkic not IE. The same can be said about R1a M458 in Eastern Europe and Finno-Ugric Z280!



ahahahahaha...... how stupid and low intelligence. So you're still on about R1a being Turkic origin after all these years. You're a foolish person. R1a in India predates any Aryan invasion especially long before your fake Scythian-Turkic with R1a.

All modern day Turkish people have haplogroup R1a as a result of predominate Mongoloid males who look like Kyrgyz carrying R1a and interbreeding with the local Anatolian Europoid females.

[Turul Karom]

Ofcourse, all R1b /R1a ultimately come from the east/steppe.

Did you read new paper about Langobards in Panonnia and Italy ? They had lot of R1b U106.

It's refreshing to hear the accurate statements about R1b and R1a. I cannot say I study all of R1 haplogroups, but all paperwork I find of R1b U106 shows it in Kazakhstan as stated and spreading westward. I'm not certain why they need to call it "Germanic" despite that it is found in the areas today of Germany and Netherlands the most. Oh well, hopefully these terms will be reevaluated as more people realize different ethnic groups had different haplogroups. Turkic people alone have a large diversity of them, and I'm talking about pre-settlement, not just today.

I have only briefly looked those studies. I will dive deeper now. What are your thoughts on the Langobards and R1b U106?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

R1a in India predates any Aryan invasion

Why Indians are trying to prove that Aryan invasion never happened? Why is that fact problem for India?

[ButlerKing]

Why Indians are trying to prove that Aryan invasion never happened? Why is that fact problem for India?

Firstable some Europeans geneticist believe " out of India " theory also the world highest R1a can be found only in India reaching 82% and Indians made a better effort spread R1a. Turks on the other hand heavy Mongoloid admixture and their are many burials of Mongoloid males and Europoid females in Central Asia and Siberia but guess what ? those males carried R1a from their Scythian ancestors and all of this predates the existence of Turkish Turks by a 1000+ years when they are already part Mongoloid. Even if a Aryan invasion existed it would have happened 8000 years ago and were all heavily admixed with South Asian DNA meaning North Indians have been North Indians in the past decades of millenniums on the other hand Turkish Turkish received R1a during the Oghuz invasion of of Turkey.


All western Eurasian haplogroup in Cambodians came from Indians and the proof is in the fact they also have typical south Asian admixture

South Asian mtDNA map so any Indian R1a in Southeast Asia came from North Indians.
http://i60.tinypic.com/r0o2v6.png

[Jana]

It's refreshing to hear the accurate statements about R1b and R1a. I cannot say I study all of R1 haplogroups, but all paperwork I find of R1b U106 shows it in Kazakhstan as stated and spreading westward. I'm not certain why they need to call it "Germanic" despite that it is found in the areas today of Germany and Netherlands the most. Oh well, hopefully these terms will be reevaluated as more people realize different ethnic groups had different haplogroups. Turkic people alone have a large diversity of them, and I'm talking about pre-settlement, not just today.

I have only briefly looked those studies. I will dive deeper now. What are your thoughts on the Langobards and R1b U106?

It's possible that basal U106 was found in Kazakhstan, but are you sure it isn't from Volga Germans that were deported to Kazakhstan by Soviets ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_of_Kazakhstan

Most of them are the offspring of Volga Germans, who were deported to the then Soviet republic of Kazakhstan from the Volga German Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic soon after the Nazi German Invasion during World War II. Large portions of the community were imprisoned in the Soviet labor camp system.

I think R1b U106 among Langobards not suprise :)

[Jana]

Why Indians are trying to prove that Aryan invasion never happened? Why is that fact problem for India?

wishful thinking....

[ButlerKing]

There is no Mongoloid admixture in North Indians this proves R1a in India didn't come from Scythian-Turkic

Any R1a in Southeast Asia is certainly from Indian and the prove is that they have south Asian mtDNA to go with it.

Just like Turkish people have Asian admixture, their R1a would have come with East Asian mtDNA.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Wrong, R1b brought non-IE AGGLUTINATIVE languages into Europe, Basque and Bashkirs are the last remnants. Celtic is agglutinative, too, a totally non-IE feature. R1a in India is Scytho-Turkic not IE. The same can be said about R1a M458 in Eastern Europe and Finno-Ugric Z280!

I forgot to say, that even your dear scientist Klyosov would laughing for such claim that Z280 (which include Balto-Slavic) is Turkic. He considers R1a Z280 as the purest IE :)

[ButlerKing]

wishful thinking....

Say that to Dr. David Frawley


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qych3WYNViA

[Jana]

Say that to Dr. David Frawley


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qych3WYNViA

R1 come from Altai, and R1a Z93 from Andronovo culture, which wasn't in India.

[ButlerKing]

R1 come from Altai, and R1a Z93 from Andronovo culture, which wasn't in India.


" More recent studies have been able to type for specific mtDNA lineages. For example, a 2004 study studied the HV1 sequence obtained from a male "Scytho-Siberian" at the Kizil site in the Altai Republic. It belonged to the N1a maternal lineage, a geographically "west Eurasian lineage."[130] Another study by the same team, again from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic, were phenotypically males "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of "East Eurasian" populations.[131] "


Pazyryk culture ( R1a, N1b )

" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "


Anayino culture

Sculptural reconstruction of men Lugovskyi burial
Ananyino culture. Gypsum. MMGerasimov work.


" Reconstruction of the mounds number 5, 6 show burial Stone Barn in racial make women Ural type men - striking features of Central Asian Mongoloid."



MALE : R1a Central Asian Mongoloid
FEMALE: H1a Caucasian female

http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641901/tyurk1.jpg

http://www.imageup.ru/img195/1641909/f-u1.jpg

[Turul Karom]

It's possible that basal U106 was found in Kazakhstan, but are you sure it isn't from Volga Germans that were deported to Kazakhstan by Soviets ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_of_Kazakhstan


I think R1b U106 among Langobards not suprise :)

That is a fair point about the relocation and I have heard it before. But allow me to elaborate further as to why this U106 is not from them....at least not all of it. Stears attempted the same argument in the Ugric-finno Lingua Franca thread after he was caught trimming his map.

Firstly, this assumes all Germans deported to this area were U106. There is no way that this is possible or even probable that they were all vastly U106.

Second, U106 is over 10% of the dna in the area of Kazakhstan and surrounding, diminishing in the West direction heading into Europe until it explodes again. That is a lot of the DNA, far more people than were transplanted there by the Soviets.

Finally, as we know the origins of R1b as steppe in nature, downstream such as L10 show us the power of the "founder effect" in that of course we would find less DNA in the area or origin (especially if the mutation formed in nomadic peoples) and more in the areas they have settled or after an explosive population growth due to a bottle neck.

These points all must be addressed and surplanted by the transplanted Germans theory, which it cannot do as the facts do not follow. Germans were also transplanted to other areas after World War 2, but we don't see nearly as large of a concentration of U106 in these areas. Did the Germans just randomly lack the U106 mutation? I think the answer is obvious.

I look forward to your reply.

[Jana]

That is a fair point about the relocation and I have heard it before. But allow me to elaborate further as to why this U106 is not from them....at least not all of it. Stears attempted the same argument in the Ugric-finno Lingua Franca thread after he was caught trimming his map.

Firstly, this assumes all Germans deported to this area were U106. There is no way that this is possible or even probable that they were all vastly U106.

Second, U106 is over 10% of the dna in the area of Kazakhstan and surrounding, diminishing in the West direction heading into Europe until it explodes again. That is a lot of the DNA, far more people than were transplanted there by the Soviets.

Finally, as we know the origins of R1b as steppe in nature, downstream such as L10 show us the power of the "founder effect" in that of course we would find less DNA in the area or origin (especially if the mutation formed in nomadic peoples) and more in the areas they have settled or after an explosive population growth due to a bottle neck.

These points all must be addressed and surplanted by the transplanted Germans theory, which it cannot do as the facts do not follow. Germans were also transplanted to other areas after World War 2, but we don't see nearly as large of a concentration of U106 in these areas. Did the Germans just randomly lack the U106 mutation? I think the answer is obvious.

I look forward to your reply.

Good arguments, I nothing to add, your assumption not impossible

:thumb001:

[ButlerKing]

That is a fair point about the relocation and I have heard it before. But allow me to elaborate further as to why this U106 is not from them....at least not all of it. Stears attempted the same argument in the Ugric-finno Lingua Franca thread after he was caught trimming his map.

Firstly, this assumes all Germans deported to this area were U106. There is no way that this is possible or even probable that they were all vastly U106.

Second, U106 is over 10% of the dna in the area of Kazakhstan and surrounding, diminishing in the West direction heading into Europe until it explodes again. That is a lot of the DNA, far more people than were transplanted there by the Soviets.

Finally, as we know the origins of R1b as steppe in nature, downstream such as L10 show us the power of the "founder effect" in that of course we would find less DNA in the area or origin (especially if the mutation formed in nomadic peoples) and more in the areas they have settled or after an explosive population growth due to a bottle neck.

These points all must be addressed and surplanted by the transplanted Germans theory, which it cannot do as the facts do not follow. Germans were also transplanted to other areas after World War 2, but we don't see nearly as large of a concentration of U106 in these areas. Did the Germans just randomly lack the U106 mutation? I think the answer is obvious.

I look forward to your reply.


Wrong assumptions. European DNA from Russians and Germans already existed long before the Soviets. An estimated 100,000-200,000 Russians and Germans enslaved to Kazakhstan.

Kazakh Khanate slave trade on Russian settlement

During the 18th century, raids by Kazakhs on Russia's territory of Orenburg were common; the Kazakhs captured many Russians and sold them as slaves in the Central Asian market. The Volga Germans were also victims of Kazakh raids; they were ethnic Germans living along the River Volga in the region of southeastern European Russia around Saratov.

In 1717, 3,000 Russian slaves, men, women, and children, were sold in Khiva by Kazakh and Kyrgyz tribesmen.[15]

In 1722, they stole cattle, robbed from Russian villages and people trapped in captivity and sold in the slave markets of Central Asia (in 1722 in Bukhara were over 5,000 Russian prisoners). In the middle of the 17th century, 500 Russians were annually sold to Khiva by Kazakhs.

In 1730, the Kazakhs' frequent raids into Russian lands were a constant irritant and resulted in the enslavement of many of the Tsar's subjects, who were sold on the Kazakh steppe.[16]

In 1736, urged on by Kirilov, the Kazakhs of the Lesser and Middle Hordes launched raids into Bashkir lands, killing or capturing many Bashkirs in the Siberian and Nogay districts.[17]

In 1743, an order was given by the senate in response to the failure to defend against the Kazakh attack on a Russian settlement, which resulted in 14 Russians killed, 24 wounded. In addition 96 Cossacks were captured by Kazakhs.[18]

In 1755 Nepliev tried to enlist Kazakh support by ending the reprisal raids and promising that the Kazakhs could keep the Bashkir women and children,[19] and organized the massacre of 10,000 Bashkirs by the Kazakhs during the Bashkir rising.[20]

In the period between 1764 and 1803, according to data collected by the Orenburg Commission, twenty Russian caravans were attacked and plundered. Kazakh raiders attacked even big caravans which were accompanied by numerous guards.[21]

In spring 1774, the Russians demanded the Khan return 256 Russians captured by a recent Kazakh raid.[22]

In summer 1774, when Russian troops in the Kazan region were suppressing the rebellion led by the Cossack leader Pugachev, the Kazakhs launched more than 240 raids and captured many Russians and herds along the border of Orenburg.[22]

Darrel P. Kaiser wrote, "Kazakh-Kirghiz tribesmen kidnapped 1573 German settlers in Russia. In 1774 alone and only half were successfully ransomed. The rest were killed or enslaved. "[23]

Caesarfeld, founded in 1774, was attacked by Kazakh or Kirghiz tribesmen and destroyed. The Catholic village of Chaisol was destroyed in 1774. The second attack on the Karaman in the colony of Mariental took place in August 1774. All the livestock and the people and property were stolen and carried across the Ural River into the Russian steppe. The total number of captives taken away from Mariental was about 300, of whom very few came back. Those captives that survived (mostly women and children) were eventually sold by the Kirghiz into the harems of wealthy Muslims in areas under the control of Turkey.[24]

In October 24, 1774, the Kazakh or Kirghiz attacked the colonies of Seelmann, Leitsinger, Keller, and Holzel, and carried away 317 persons into slavery.[24]

In 1776, the colony of the Mariental was attacked and its inhabitants were enslaved. One story tells that someone (probably Pastor Werboner) had his tongue cut out and that hundreds of people were beheaded.[24]

In August 16, 1785 was the last attack on the colonies by the Kazakh-Kyrgyz; a woman, a child and four elders were killed and 130 people taken as prisoners during the attack. Government forces quickly caught the attackers while the latter were moving the prisoners. In the battle, 70 Kazakhs and Kyrgyz were killed and all the prisoners were freed.[24]

In 1799, the biggest Russian caravan which was plundered at that time lost goods worth 295,000 rubles.[24]

By 1830, the Russian government estimated that two hundred Russians were kidnapped and sold into slavery in Khiva every year.[25]


Abolition of slavery

" The Russian administration liberated the slaves of the Kazakhs in 1859.[27] However, isolated abductions of Russians or Ukrainians by Kazakhs for the slave markets of Central Asia continued until the Tsars' conquest of Khiva and Bukhara in the 1860s.[28] At major markets in Bukhara, Samarkand, Karakul, Karshi and Charju, slaves consisted mainly of Iranians and Russians, and some Kalmuks; they were brought there by Turkmen, Kazakh and Kyrgyz.[29] A notorious slave market for captured Russian and Persian slaves was centered in the Khanate of Khiva from the 17th to the 19th century.[30] During the first half of the 19th century alone, some one million Persians, as well as an unknown number of Russians, were enslaved and transported to Central Asian khanates.[31][32] When Russian troops took Khiva in 1873 there were 29,300 Persian slaves, captured by Turkoman raiders.[citation needed] According of Josef Wolff (Report of 1843–1845) the population of the Khanate of Bukhara was 1,200,000, of whom 200,000 were Persian slaves.[33] "

[ButlerKing]

Good arguments, I nothing to add, your assumption not impossible

:thumb001:

Not exatly. This is the problem when people don't read history.

Of course I don't know if U106 in Kazakhstan came from Germans but it's most likely from the Baskhirs who have R1b, since there was 30,000 of them enslaved to Kazakhstan. Point is there was over 100,000-200,000+ Europeans already existed in Central Asia and Kazakhstan long before Soviet control of central Asia. There is also European mtDNA in a portion of Kazakhs western Eurasian mtDNA.

[ButlerKing]

Of course I don't know if U106 in Kazakhstan came from Germans most likely from the Baskhirs who have R1b, since there was 30,000 of them enslaved to Kazakhstan. Point was there over 100,000-200,000+ Europeans already existed in Central Asia and Kazakhstan long before Soviet control of central Asia.


A portion of Kazakhs western eurasian mtDNA seem to be related with European mtDNA but I wouldn't know if it's ancient or recent.

[Turul Karom]

Not exatly. This is the problem when people don't read history.

Of course I don't know if U106 in Kazakhstan came from Germans but it's most likely from the Baskhirs who have R1b, since there was 30,000 of them enslaved to Kazakhstan. Point is there was over 100,000-200,000+ Europeans already existed in Central Asia and Kazakhstan long before Soviet control of central Asia. There is also European mtDNA in a portion of Kazakhs western Eurasian mtDNA.

...and as we know, it is Turkic as our culture, religion pre-settlement, etc. R1b U106 is found in Central Asia thanks to the spread of Turkic peoples and was in the graves of Hungarian conquerors as well. Not all Germanic people have R1b U106 yet you fail to give other Germanic haplogroups credit, like I1. Yet when the Germans are settled in other regions by Soviets we find no such clusters of U106.

If find it ironic that you speak of not reading history; did the Legend of Botond not sit with you well?

[blogen]

If find it ironic that you speak of not reading history; did the Legend of Botond not sit with you well?

The Botond legend connected to the Varangians (Kylfingar=Kölpény, Rusz/Orosz, or Væringjar=Várang) between the Magyars presumably! The Botond-myth is a typical Viking story. Presumably the Varangians arrived into Hungary in the 10th century at the pagan times and they served the grandprinces before the christian kings.

Botond at the gate:
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/8e/b9/6e/8eb96e1b336512f50a76f7c5b5b28d35.jpg


Later, the kings of the Árpád-house had Varagian guard and troops. Placenames in Hungary from the Árpád-age with the Varangians ethnonym (varég, kölpény, orosz in the 10-13th century):
https://i.img.ie/3q0.jpg

[Yaglakar]

This just might as well conclude this thread: :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsQQxSKFa44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svPY_I2_EBI

[Proto-Shaman]

U152 isn't in important percentage among Baskhirs to my knowledge
The main sublineage among Bashkirs is R1b-U152. Other Bashkirs are M73 and L23.

U152 map:
http://gentis.ru/img/y/U152.gif

Generally speaking, Bashkirs, Basques and Celto-Germanics (and maybe even Native North-Americans) have the same ancestor.

[Proto-Shaman]

ahahahahaha...... how stupid and low intelligence. So you're still on about R1a being Turkic origin after all these years. You're a foolish person. R1a in India predates any Aryan invasion especially long before your fake Scythian-Turkic with R1a.

All modern day Turkish people have haplogroup R1a as a result of predominate Mongoloid males who look like Kyrgyz carrying R1a and interbreeding with the local Anatolian Europoid females.
R1a in India can be divided into Aryan-Turkic (4.000 years ago) and pre-Neolithic (12.000 years ago). low intelligence? LOOOL

[Proto-Shaman]

I forgot to say, that even your dear scientist Klyosov would laughing for such claim that Z280 (which include Balto-Slavic) is Turkic. He considers R1a Z280 as the purest IE :)
He didn't, because I never made such a claim.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

He didn't, because I never made such a claim.

But you made for M458.

[Jana]

The main sublineage among Bashkirs is R1b-U152. Other Bashkirs are M73 and L23.

U152 map:
http://gentis.ru/img/y/U152.gif

Generally speaking, Bashkirs, Basques and Celto-Germanics (and maybe even Native North-Americans) have the same ancestor.

:thumb001: didn't know that, interesting.

[Artek]

R1b U106 (S21) is Germanic.

R1b U152 (S23) is Celto-Italic and Gaulish.

R1b L21 is insular Celtic (Brittonic)

R1b DF27 is Celtiberian.

It's certainly all Bell Beaker but there a fact ends. There are subclades of U152, U106, DF27 and L21 who have nothing to do with Celts and Germanics. There is a coorelation for sure but please remember that such clades were already found in Bell Beaker context when it is too early to speak of aforementioned linguistic groups.

As a result, for example, random U152 Pole may not be a descendant of Celt but of easternmost Bell Beaker Group. DF27 German isn't born from a Spanish soldier who took part in 30 years war (or a Roman legionary from Iberia) but survived as a part of older Bell Beaker layer. U106 Englishman may not have been of Anglo-Saxon background but a grand-grand-grand-grand....-son of Urnfield culture migrant who spoke non-Germanic dialect.

Now their descendants may test themselves and they read an oversimplified version of a story. It's not fair. It has always been more complex than that.





Second, U106 is over 10% of the dna in the area of Kazakhstan and surrounding, diminishing in the West direction heading into Europe until it explodes again. That is a lot of the DNA, far more people than were transplanted there by the Soviets.
Can you provide me with the data proving this information?

Anyway, if such study was performed correctly, no descendant of Volga German should have been included in a study, because they are still aware of their origins. However, a descendant of medieval East Slav with distant Gothic background could have been included. As well as various Poles and Germans caught throughout XII-XVII century by Tatars or Mongols. Their descendants had plenty of time to assimilate and lose awareness of their foreign origins to be just Kazakhs.

[Jana]

It's certainly all Bell Beaker but there a fact ends. There are subclades of U152, U106, DF27 and L21 who have nothing to do with Celts and Germanics. There is a coorelation for sure but please remember that such clades were already found in Bell Beaker context when it is too early to speak of aforementioned linguistic groups.

As a result, for example, random U152 Pole may not be a descendant of Celt but of easternmost Bell Beaker Group. DF27 German isn't born from a Spanish soldier who took part in 30 years war (or a Roman legionary from Iberia) but survived as a part of older Bell Beaker layer. U106 Englishman may not have been of Anglo-Saxon background but a grand-grand-grand-grand....-son of Urnfield culture migrant who spoke non-Germanic dialect.

Now their descendants may test themselves and they read an oversimplified version of a story. It's not fair. It has always been more complex than that.

I know that. :)

[Proto-Shaman]

But you made for M458.
He said it himself in one of his papers. Polish researchers even argue M458 is Scytho-Sarmatian. So what?

The proto-Slavic warrior in Europe:
the Scythians, Sarmatians and Lekhs (http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Ido_Movement_for_Culture_journal_of_martial_arts_a nthropology_theory_of_culture_psychophysical_cultu re_cultural_tourism_anthropology_of_martial_arts_c ombat_sports/Ido_Movement_for_Culture_journal_of_martial_arts_a nthropology_theory_of_culture_psychophysical_cultu re_cultural_tourism_anthropology_of_martial_arts_c ombat_sports-r2016-t16-n3/Ido_Movement_for_Culture_journal_of_martial_arts_a nthropology_theory_of_culture_psychophysical_cultu re_cultural_tourism_anthropology_of_martial_arts_c ombat_sports-r2016-t16-n3-s1-14/Ido_Movement_for_Culture_journal_of_martial_arts_a nthropology_theory_of_culture_psychophysical_cultu re_cultural_tourism_anthropology_of_martial_arts_c ombat_sports-r2016-t16-n3-s1-14.pdf)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

He said it himself in one of his papers. Polish researchers even argue M458 is Scytho-Sarmatian. So what?

Where he said that M458 is Scytho Sarmatian? Polish researchers argue about it, but NO ONE have proofs for it, since we don't have ancient sample of M458. Eupedia said it's proto-Slavic, and Z280 is not, so what? Could you consider it as proven?

[Dibran]

Where he said that M458 is Scytho Sarmatian? Polish researchers argue about it, but NO ONE have proofs for it, since we don't have ancient sample of M458. Eupedia said it's proto-Slavic, and Z280 is not, so what? Could you consider it as proven?

The fact there is no aDNA in presumably proto-slavic urheimat for M458 makes a stronger case against it. Of course we still need aDNA. I however hypothesize that it is L1029/L260/YP515 that are linked to the Proto-Slavic development that led to the migration. Their earliest ancestor M458 could have theoretically been Scytho-Sarmatian. Then upon participating in the Slavic ethnogenesis, later lines such as L1029/L260/YP515 would have branched off it. Also YP263, a sublcade of L1029, is believed to have spread from around the Morava and Ukraine. Assuming M458 was already incubating there earlier before the development of later clades, then its very plausible that Scytho-Sarmatians there could have carried M458. It has already not turned up in aDNA that is abundant in Z280(Balts & Slavs), and not turned up yet in Poland either. So how many other areas could it possibly be? It didn;t drop down with Aliens. Theres also later splintered branches of Dacii or Getae that fall within the horizon of the Slavic Urheimat. So, theoretically basal M458 could turn up to. But, given its coming up in some turkic groups like nogai and northern Kavkaz like Circassians(20 percent), or the Shapsug(22 percent). I am willing to bet due to the frequency of basal M458 among them, that for all we know Volga Bulgars, and or Pannonian Avars could have carried it. Which would make more sense of the historical narrative. I mean these steppe tribes bred like rabbits. The Shapsug for instance are mostly now in the southern Kavkaz and mostly in Turkey these days. Russian occupation/invasion didnt occur until the 1800s, and they are also extremely vehement towards Russians, so the line had to enter much earlier in history. If M458 specifically is Proto-Slavic(a term invented in the 1700s) basal quantities should be more prevalent in Slavs. But, as I understand the Kavkaz groups mentioned has mostly Basal M458, with a couple of M458 cases of "West Slavic" L260. M458 is also 3400 minimum TMRCA. Roughly 1400BC. If the Proto-Slavic urheimat is within the cultural horizon of what was Getae/Dacii, then you're telling me M458 was in Getae and Dacians? Otherwise, I think its more probable M458 is either from Volga Bulgars/Avars or Scytho-Sarmatians. With L1029/L260/YP515 being the Slavic branches that developed from it. Considering the Volga Bulgars fall within Russia, a historically R1a zone since antiquity, that seems pretty possible. Of course we have to wait for ancient samples.

[Stears]

R1 Turkic pride!

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/74/8c/06/748c0692fff3881b28c8b97f80ff736f.jpg

Only for people who live in a sub-culture in Cumania.

[Dick]

R1b U106 (S21) is Germanic.

R1b U152 (S23) is Celto-Italic and Gaulish.

R1b L21 is insular Celtic (Brittonic)

R1b DF27 is Celtiberian.

Here are some ancient samples from Britain. 2 examples of R1b U106(M405) from Roman Era Britain.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uuWEsp0LNmU/Vp63QyalGzI/AAAAAAAAD6U/Bnd5tJRmTXQ/s1164/Martiniano_etal_Table_1.png



http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2016/01/ancient-genomes-from-iron-age-roman-and.html?m=1

[Massagetae]

P---> Q ---> R == Turkic.

Deal with it inferior little bitches.

[Massagetae]

Then we added some J2, N and C to the team and conquered all you mother f*ckers.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

The fact there is no aDNA in presumably proto-slavic urheimat for M458 makes a stronger case against it. Of course we still need aDNA. I however hypothesize that it is L1029/L260/YP515 that are linked to the Proto-Slavic development that led to the migration. Their earliest ancestor M458 could have theoretically been Scytho-Sarmatian. Then upon participating in the Slavic ethnogenesis, later lines such as L1029/L260/YP515 would have branched off it. Also YP263, a sublcade of L1029, is believed to have spread from around the Morava and Ukraine. Assuming M458 was already incubating there earlier before the development of later clades, then its very plausible that Scytho-Sarmatians there could have carried M458. It has already not turned up in aDNA that is abundant in Z280(Balts & Slavs), and not turned up yet in Poland either. So how many other areas could it possibly be? It didn;t drop down with Aliens. Theres also later splintered branches of Dacii or Getae that fall within the horizon of the Slavic Urheimat. So, theoretically basal M458 could turn up to. But, given its coming up in some turkic groups like nogai and northern Kavkaz like Circassians(20 percent), or the Shapsug(22 percent). I am willing to bet due to the frequency of basal M458 among them, that for all we know Volga Bulgars, and or Pannonian Avars could have carried it. Which would make more sense of the historical narrative. I mean these steppe tribes bred like rabbits. The Shapsug for instance are mostly now in the southern Kavkaz and mostly in Turkey these days. Russian occupation/invasion didnt occur until the 1800s, and they are also extremely vehement towards Russians, so the line had to enter much earlier in history. If M458 specifically is Proto-Slavic(a term invented in the 1700s) basal quantities should be more prevalent in Slavs. But, as I understand the Kavkaz groups mentioned has mostly Basal M458, with a couple of M458 cases of "West Slavic" L260. M458 is also 3400 minimum TMRCA. Roughly 1400BC. If the Proto-Slavic urheimat is within the cultural horizon of what was Getae/Dacii, then you're telling me M458 was in Getae and Dacians? Otherwise, I think its more probable M458 is either from Volga Bulgars/Avars or Scytho-Sarmatians. With L1029/L260/YP515 being the Slavic branches that developed from it. Considering the Volga Bulgars fall within Russia, a historically R1a zone since antiquity, that seems pretty possible. Of course we have to wait for ancient samples.

Yes, it's all correct, but without ancient data, it's hard to tell anything definitly. And it's not me really who said that "as fact", but Eupedia. I don't know reasons for it.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Then we added some J2, N and C to the team and conquered all you mother f*ckers.

Yes, Turko-Mongol alliance against the time. I must dissapoint you, it's not still 11th century.

[Jana]

Here are some ancient samples from Britain. 2 examples of R1b U106(M405) from Roman Era Britain.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uuWEsp0LNmU/Vp63QyalGzI/AAAAAAAAD6U/Bnd5tJRmTXQ/s1164/Martiniano_etal_Table_1.png



http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2016/01/ancient-genomes-from-iron-age-roman-and.html?m=1

I remember, and sole Anglo-Saxon sample was I1.

Don't show it to Rethel :thumb001:

[Proto-Shaman]

Only for people who live in a sub-culture in Cumania.
neo-Cuman-Turkic conspiracy? :rolleyes:

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes, Turko-Mongol alliance against the time. I must dissapoint you, it's not still 11th century.

:picard1:

[Dick]

I remember, and sole Anglo-Saxon sample was I1.




https://youtu.be/LJZIBx1fpUU

[Proto-Shaman]

Where he said that M458 is Scytho Sarmatian?
Not Scytho-Sarmatian, just Turkic. The Polish researchers claimed Scytho-Sarmatian Slavic connection.

[Turul Karom]

Only for people who live in a sub-culture in Cumania.

Plenty of Hungarians come from all over Europe and abroad to Kurultaj. It is is anything but a "Cuman" event. It is hosted by Hungarians, for Hungarians, and our eastern family. Not accepting these basic facts about the Kurultaj and our culture only hurts yourself in the form of desperate denialism. Your own GEDmatch results show how Turkic shifted you are, which makes more sense as well given your claimed family background. Therefore, the irony is you throw away a longstanding and noble culture for a Western ideal that you will never match unless you abandon your Magyar heritage with it. Unless you wish to identify as a sort of "foreign noble" ruling over the Magyar masses (which of course you're not), then it makes no sense to worship at their feet. Nobody is calling you less European for it that isn't a troll.

[Stears]

ngar
Plenty of Hungarians come from all over Europe and abroad to Kurultaj. It is is anything but a "Cuman" event. It is hosted by Hungarians, for Hungarians, and our eastern family. Not accepting these basic facts about the Kurultaj and our culture only hurts yourself in the form of desperate denialism. Your own GEDmatch results show how Turkic shifted you are, which makes more sense as well given your claimed family background. Therefore, the irony is you throw away a longstanding and noble culture for a Western ideal that you will never match unless you abandon your Magyar heritage with it. Unless you wish to identify as a sort of "foreign noble" ruling over the Magyar masses (which of course you're not), then it makes no sense to worship at their feet. Nobody is calling you less European for it that isn't a troll.


No, it started as neo-cuman-days, and transformed into a fake Hungarian event, because it is a biggest business than your sub-culture. Do not forget, that your material culture is not similar to the standard Hungarian Central-European culture, but eastern-european balkanite culture. This scientific work always gives you a check-mate: http://tet.rkk.hu/index.php/TeT/article/view/98/195

IGEN , enyhén fogalmazva ELTÉRŐ KULTÚRA VAGYTOK!!!!

The only relationship of cumania with Hungarian culture, that your mixed serbian-romanian-hungarian-albanian folk learned the Hungarian language as lingua franca!!!!! IT is close to zero....

[Turul Karom]

No, it started as neo-cuman-days, and transformed into a fake Hungarian event, because it is a biggest business than your sub-culture. Do not forget, that your material culture is not similar to the standard Hungarian Central-European culture, but eastern-european balkanite culture. This scientific work always gives you a check-mate: http://tet.rkk.hu/index.php/TeT/article/view/98/195

IGEN , enyhén fogalmazva ELTÉRŐ KULTÚRA VAGYTOK!!!!

The only relationship of cumania with Hungarian culture, that your mixed serbian-romanian-hungarian-albanian folk learned the Hungarian language as lingua franca!!!!! IT is close to zero....

I am sure that they are doing it for business and not for enjoyment. Not a single competitive archer, or Nomad Games participant does it for a love of our culture and heritage.

Look at all those CUMAN flags they fly to represent us! I am sure you will see them when you look hard enough for them!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfbSdPwG41M

You claim how isolated the countryside is in this thinking, then as it grows, you ignore it. You ignore contemporary studies, even the ones in this thread, and just post the same tired article full of terms to make the countryside and folk artistry look petty. Adopting this "aristocratic air" is nice but you should be aware that you are a Hungarian, and there is no reason to hate the foundation of your culture. Sadly, and this is honestly a sad moment, you dislike your own calculator and K11 Turkic results. I think you have more interest in being somebody regal than your founding heritage... and that's ok. But you need to appreciate your ancestry. Even your fiancée seems to appreciate it and acknowledges it publicly. I remember you saying you were proud of sharing genetics with the Magyar founding peoples...

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Not Scytho-Sarmatian, just Turkic. The Polish researchers claimed Scytho-Sarmatian Slavic connection.

Both is incorrect, since 0 Scythians who are tested were M458. So based on what they are Scythians? About Turkic, there is only in Karachay-Balkars, and nowhere else in whole Turkic world. Klyosov claims that Z280 and M458 formed the proto-Slavs. But for such general statement, we have to wait for ancient DNA sample.

[Arthur9]

The scytho-sarmats have very few things in common with Turks genetically,they did invade them just as they invaded Europe but they got quickly assimilated unlike in Europe who is half their ydna, and turks have been invaded by dozens of foreigners since then who turned them into mongrels.

[Dibran]

Both is incorrect, since 0 Scythians who are tested were M458. So based on what they are Scythians? About Turkic, there is only in Karachay-Balkars, and nowhere else in whole Turkic world. Klyosov claims that Z280 and M458 formed the proto-Slavs. But for such general statement, we have to wait for ancient DNA sample.

I already mentioned the Nogai to you. The Bashkirs also have some negligible amounts. Theres also been no proto-slavic graves remains with M458 either. Only Z280 has been found. So your claim is just as flimsy without aDNA.

[Jana]

I already mentioned the Nogai to you. The Bashkirs also have some negligible amounts. Theres also been no proto-slavic graves remains with M458 either. Only Z280 has been found. So your claim us just as flimsy without aDNA.

Z280 was found among proto-Slavs ? I didn't know any proto Slavic graves were sampled!

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I already mentioned the Nogai to you. The Bashkirs also have some negligible amounts. Theres also been no proto-slavic graves remains with M458 either. Only Z280 has been found. So your claim is just as flimsy without aDNA.

As i said, man, KLYOSOV is claiming that, not me. And the Kipchak Hakan supports Klyosov.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Z280 was found among proto-Slavs ? I didn't know any proto Slavic graves were sampled!

And how they could be if proto-Slavic urhemeit was never marked? Some people say it's Zarubintsy culture, some say it's Chernyakov culture, some say it's Przeworsk, and also some say (as Klyosov) that even Fatyanovo culture is proto-Slavic. So the question for Dibran would be: from which culture is founded Z280 about he speaks ?

[Dibran]

Z280 was found among proto-Slavs ? I didn't know any proto Slavic graves were sampled!

I meant Balto-Slavic.

[Dibran]

And how they could be if proto-Slavic urhemeit was never marked? Some people say it's Zarubintsy culture, some say it's Chernyakov culture, some say it's Przeworsk, and also some say (as Klyosov) that even Fatyanovo culture is proto-Slavic. So the question for Dibran would be: from which culture is founded Z280 about he speaks ?

See Above. Anyway we are not specifically speaking about Proto-Slavs. But, about M458 aDNA which there is none. Yet, you speak as if M458 is already known. Modern distributions are not representations of aDNA.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

"The origins of the Slavs go back to circa 3500 BCE with the northern Yamna culture and its expansion across Central and Northeast Europe with the Corded Ware culture. The M458 and Z280 lineages spread around Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and western Russia, and would form the core of the Proto-Balto-Slavic culture. The high prevalence of R1a in Baltic and Slavic countries nowadays is not only due to the Corded Ware expansion, but also to a long succession of later migrations from Russia, the last of which took place from the 5th to the 10th century CE. The Slavic branch differentiated itself when the Corded Ware culture absorbed the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture (5200-2600 BCE) of western Ukraine and north-eastern Romania, which appears to have been composed primarily of G2a-U1 et I2a1b-M423 lineages descended directly from Paleolithic Europeans, with some other Near-Eastern farmer lineages (notably E-V13, J2a and T1a). It is surely during this period that I2a2, E-V13 and T spread (along with R1a) around Poland, Belarus and western Russia, explaining why eastern and northern Slavs (and Lithuanians) have between 10 and 20% of I2a1b lineages and about 10% of Middle Eastern lineages (18% for Ukrainians).

The Corded Ware period was followed in the steppes by the Srubna culture (1800-1200 BCE), and around Poland by the Trzciniec culture (1700-1200 BCE).

The last important Slavic migration is thought to have happened in the 6th century CE, from Ukraine to Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia, filling the vacuum left by eastern Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Both the M458 and the Z280 branches are associated with this late Slavic migration, but more particularly Z280."

[Arthur9]

I am happy i am not R1A/R1B , what a clusterfuck. :laugh::laugh:

[Dibran]

"The origins of the Slavs go back to circa 3500 BCE with the northern Yamna culture and its expansion across Central and Northeast Europe with the Corded Ware culture. The M458 and Z280 lineages spread around Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and western Russia, and would form the core of the Proto-Balto-Slavic culture. The high prevalence of R1a in Baltic and Slavic countries nowadays is not only due to the Corded Ware expansion, but also to a long succession of later migrations from Russia, the last of which took place from the 5th to the 10th century CE. The Slavic branch differentiated itself when the Corded Ware culture absorbed the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture (5200-2600 BCE) of western Ukraine and north-eastern Romania, which appears to have been composed primarily of G2a-U1 et I2a1b-M423 lineages descended directly from Paleolithic Europeans, with some other Near-Eastern farmer lineages (notably E-V13, J2a and T1a). It is surely during this period that I2a2, E-V13 and T spread (along with R1a) around Poland, Belarus and western Russia, explaining why eastern and northern Slavs (and Lithuanians) have between 10 and 20% of I2a1b lineages and about 10% of Middle Eastern lineages (18% for Ukrainians).

The Corded Ware period was followed in the steppes by the Srubna culture (1800-1200 BCE), and around Poland by the Trzciniec culture (1700-1200 BCE).

The last important Slavic migration is thought to have happened in the 6th century CE, from Ukraine to Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia, filling the vacuum left by eastern Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Both the M458 and the Z280 branches are associated with this late Slavic migration, but more particularly Z280."

Wheres the aDNA? Oh we don't have any yet? Then one theory is as good as the next, until some actual aDNA surfaces.

[Rethel]

Władke,
Dibran is here absoluty right.