Arpad dynasty DNA (kings of Hungary & Croatia)

[Peterski]

Béla III of the Arpad dynasty - king of Hungary and Croatia in 1172–1196:

Y-DNA haplogroup - R1a
mtDNA haplogroup - H1b

Source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

======

Edit:

In one of previous studies, there were Magyars with I2a and R1b:

http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/10604/1/Vegleges_cikk_u.pdf

As well as two Early Magyars with N1c (from yet another study):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

Gyöngyvér Tömöry analyzed 27 Early Medieval Magyar samples:

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

Check also Table 8. on p. 137 of Anna Szécsény-Nagy's dissertation.

Modern Szeklers have a non-negligible frequency of N1c - 6.52%.

======

See also: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

Magyars with R1b1b1a are from Karos-Eperjesszög, dated to ca. 900-950 AD.

One of them has Mongoloid mtDNA haplogroup B4d1. The other one has H6a1b.

[Jana]

:D

[Jana]

Béla III of the Arpad dynasty - king of Hungary and Croatia in 1172–1196:

Y-DNA haplogroup - R1a
mtDNA haplogroup - H1b

Source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

was he belong to Z280 subclade (or Z93) ? It is known ? This is big discovery!

[Rethel]

Y-DNA haplogroup - R1a

:laugh:


:D

Take precautions for Stears: close with nails all windows, put all
pills to the lavatory, throw away all ties, robes, belts and similar...

[Peterski]

Not N1c. :(

[Rethel]

Not N1c. :(

Say, I do not have an intuition...

=>> https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228252-The-Kingdom-of-Pannonia-was-actually-indoeuropean-until-1867&highlight=indoeuropean+kingdom

[RN97]

Anyone know more that want to explain? I'm not big on haplogroup knowledge. Where are these common today?

[Jana]

:laugh:



Take procotions for Stears: close with nails windows, put all
pills to the lavatory, throw away all ties, robes, belts and similar...

He is heartbroken, Bela III is his favorite King :(

But really, this only confirms what I suspected, and what Blogen wrote many times, that R1a was primarly haplogroup of conquering Magyars, not N1c.

[Jana]

If he belonged to Eurasian Z93 branch, it would confirm speculation that Arpads were actually Turks.

[Peterski]

According to "Gesta Hungarorum" Arpads were descended from Attila the Hun.

[Carpatz]

my ancestor

[Mingle]

Of course he was R1a. Did anyone seriously think an I-person could found such a significant dynasty? :lol:

[Rethel]

He is heartbroken, Bela III is his favorite King :(

Now it will be mine favorite king :)


But really, this only confirms what I suspected, and what Blogen wrote many times, that R1a was primarly haplogroup of conquering Magyars, not N1c.

Arpads claimed to be Scythians. Madziars were called Scythians and Turks. Turks
are partialy Scythian, and organized by Iranians. Maybe even name 'turk/turan' is
of scythian provenace. Btw, Magyar is also IE name, so nothing strange is this R1a.

p.s. I always liked Arpads - now I will like them more :p

[Rethel]

He is heartbroken, Bela III is his favorite King :(

Now he has to be called Adalbert or Белы :)

[Peterski]

Dragan Ciganovic, I'm R1b-DF27.

[blogen]

Béla III of the Arpad dynasty - king of Hungary and Croatia in 1172–1196:

Y-DNA haplogroup - R1a
mtDNA haplogroup - H1b

Source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

Presumably not Béla III, but Kálmán I (Koloman I) and his wife Felicia (Felicija). The identification of this burial was an old mistake. The paternal lineage:

Árpád (grandprince) R1a
- Zolta (grandprince)
--Taksony (grandprince)
--- Mihály (prince)
---- Vazul (prince)
----- Béla I (king)
------ Géza I (king)
------- Kálmán I (king)
------ Sofia of Looz (queen)
----- Luitgard of Namur
---- Adelheid of Lothringen
--- Adelheid de Ardenne
-- Matilda von Billung (princess)
- Hildegarde de Westerbourg
Swanhilde av Hamaland? H1b

or if the presumably mistake was not a mistake:

Árpád (grandprince) R1a
- Zolta (grandprince)
--Taksony (grandprince)
--- Mihály (prince)
---- Vazul (prince)
----- Béla I (king)
------ Géza I (king)
------- Álmos (prince)
-------- Béla II (king)
--------- Géza II (king)
---------- Béla III (king)
--------- Rurik Eufrozina (queen)
-------- Lyubawa Dmitrievna Zaviditsch H1b
------- ?

[Dragan Ciganovic]

my ancestor

...was a gypsy

[Jana]

...was a gypsy

Ciganović means little Gypsy's son, so you are of Gypsy ancestry aren't you ?

[Jana]

Of course he was R1a. Did anyone seriously think an I-person could found such a significant dynasty? :lol:

I think nobody expected Arpad dynasty to belong to I lineage (either I1 or I2). Question was always between N1c and R1a :)

Now I'm really curious, which subclade was it.

[Dragan Ciganovic]

Ciganović means little Gypsy's son, so you are of Gypsy ancestry aren't you ?

Yes I am , like most Serbs.

[blogen]

I think nobody expected Arpad dynasty to belong to I lineage (either I1 or I2). Question was always between N1c and R1a :)

Now I'm really curious, which subclade was it.

Presumably R1a1a1 (Z93) or R1a1a1g2 (Z280)

[Carpatz]

...was a gypsy

nope, I'm 100% daco-magyar

[Stears]

nope, I'm 100% daco-magyar

In the reality, the late-nomad Vlach shepherds of the Balkans (the ancestors of modern Romanians) migrated from Bulgaria and South-Eastern Serbia to the present-day territory of Romania in the 13th century. The irrational daco-romanian continuity myth is nothing more than a "NATIVIST" state-propaganda. This chauvinist propaganda was born & started with the teachings of the "Transylvanian School" (A politically very active "cultural" organization) in the era of national awakening & nationalism. The fantasies and myths of "Transylvanian School" served and followed strictly the romanian national & political interests since the very beginnings. It's the compulsory curriculum for children in romania since the communist Gheorghiu-Dej, and especially under Ceausescu's directives , this national belief/religion became the central core of modern Romanian identity. Fortunately it is not generally accepted by western academic scholars. That's why all major Western Encyclopedias (E.Encarta, E. Britannica, E.Americana, German Brockhaus, French Larousse etc...) mention the romanian state-supported daco-romanian myth, but they are also mention the reality: the Vlach nomad migration from the Balkans in the 13th century.
Vlach (name for medieval & early modern romanians in European chronicles) was the latest nation who introduced the literacy in Europe, and they were one of the latest shepherd nomadic people in Europe.


I. THE PROBLEMS WITH DACIANS AND the so-called "ROMANS"(???) in the theory:


I/1st: There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the late 12th century) proofs for the survival of Dacian ethnic group after Roman withdrawal.


I/2nd: Dacian vocabulary did not remain for the posterior, only same names of tribal leaders remained.




The neo-latin elements in Romanian language remain the best proof agaist daco-roman theory. Unlike in the case of other European neo-latin/romance languages, there are no proofs for development of dacian language into a neo-latin romance language.






I/3rd: The dacian conquest was the shortest lasting conquest of the Roman Empire in Europe, it lasted only 160years, the relations between the Roman legions and dacians remianed very hostile. This very short & hostile circumstance are not an ideal contingency for a real romanization process.


I/4th: The BARBARIZATION of the Roman Army: Despite that average Romanian people tend to believe that they are also descendants of the "Ancient Romans/Latins" it is very far from historical reality. The BARBARIZATION of the Roman army was very (shockingly) massive and rapid since the end of the first century: the 90% of the “Roman” army had not Roman/Latin or Italian ancestry since the end of the 1st century. The contemporary multi-ethnic legionaries were Roman citizens, but they were recruited from various primarily multinational, non-Latin provinces, so THEY WERE NOT ROMANS or LATINS.


II. MIGRATION PERIOD PROBLEMS of the THEORY


II/1st: The migration of series of BRUTAL BARBARIAN tribes: There are no CONTEMPORARY historic records for the survive of dacians after the Roman withdrawal, and later the territory was the FOCAL POINT of great migrations. The area saw serials of many strong powerful and brutal barbaric tribes and people such as Goths, Huns, Longobards, Gepids, Avars, Pechenegs and later Cumans. UNLIKE the Vlach ancestors of modern Romanians, all of these barbarian ethnic groups WERE HISTORICALLY RECORDED countless times in contemporary (4th - 9th century) written sources in the dark age & early medieval period. After the centuries barbarian invasions, the written records mentioned only Slavic speaking populations in the area under turkic- Cuman rule, but they didn't mention the existence of any neo-latino /romance speaking population. However there are tons of contemporary written documents (chronicles from early medieval to high medieval era , from 4th to 11th century) about the shepherd nomad Vlachs in the Balkan peninsula, but there are no material or written proofs for their existence in the present-day territory of Romania before the 1200s.


II/2nd: The complete LACK OF any LINGUISTIC INFLUENCES OF BARBARIANS of the area on Romanian language: There is also no trace of lingual influence from any of the other peoples who lived in Transylvania after the withdrawal of the Romans: The the Huns, Goths, Gepids Longobards, Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans. If these languages did not have any influence on the Rumanian language, we can be sure that this is proof that at that time there were no Wallachian settlers in Transylvania.


III. The Vlachs Neo-Latin (Romance speaking) peopulation, and the PROBLEM of the missing 800 years in contemporary chronicles.


III/1st: There are no material proofs (cemetries or vlach cultic places) which can support the Vlach (romance speaking population) existence in present-day territory of romania before the 1200s. There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the late 12th century) written documents about the existence Vlachs (neo-latino/romance speaking population) in the territory of later Vallachia, Moldavia, and especially in Transylvania before the 1200s. WERE WERE YOU HIDING FROM THE EYES OF CHRONICLERS for more than 800 years dear "daco"-"romans"?


III/2nd: The earliest romanian chronicle was Grigore Ureche's chronicle in the early 17th century(!!!), who wrote about the balkan migration of his Vlach people. There were no orthodox bishopry in medieval Vallachia & Moldavia, even most of the monks and priests had to be „imported” from Serbia. Due to the lack of medieval literacy and medieval literature and own romanian history writing/chronicles, the poor romanians had to built up a so-called "speculative history-writting" (or fabricated history), where speculations based on earlier speculations and fictions etc..







IV. LINGUISTIC PROBLEMS of the THEORY


IV/1st Only the BALKAN Valchs were recorded as neo-latin speakers in the Eastern European and South-Eastern European region in the contemporary Chronicles (4th-13th century). Which is not surprising, because the Roman rule lasted for 500+ years in many territories of Balkan peninsula (where vlach neo-latin speaker nomads were very often mentioned by many early medieval chronicles)


IV/2nd: The problem of HYDRONYMS and TOPONYMS: Other interesting fact, that Romanian language borrowed the already existing Slavic, Hungarian and Saxon origin toponyms and hydronyms of Transylvania. It is a very well known and clear practice of immigrant populations.


IV/3rd: The "great Latin" medieval Romanian vlachs always fiercely resisted against the Western Latin (Catholic) Church and its Latin liturgy, they chosed the Slavic Orthodox church which used church-slavonic language istead of Latin. (It was due to the fact that old romanian language contained more slavic words than latin, because the church-slavonic liturgy was more understandable for their people.


IV/4th: Huge LINGUISTIC REFORMS of the 19th century: During the creation of romanian literary language and language reforms in the 19th century, the high ratio of south-slavic, albanian and turkic words were purged from the vocabulary of the romanian language, and they were replaced by adopted modern French Italian and other modern-era neo-latin words, French and Italian neologisms and even full modern French expressions were adopted to replace the old ones. These new modern Western European (modern French & Italian) romance expressions and words simply did not exist in the era original ancient latin speaking populations or in the vulgar latin languages.


IV/5th: ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM in old romanian language: Let's don't forget, that the old Romanian language also contained serious ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM before the linguistic reforms. Moreover, the old Romanian language was the only language in Europe which contained Albanian substratum. This also supports the balkan migrations in the high medieval period.




The imagined "glorious past" and the opposing historical reality:
The territory of modern romania belonged to the Bulgaria first, later it came under Byzantine rule. From the late 11th century, the territory was occupied and ruled by the turkic Cuman tribes. After the brutal mongol invasions and attacks in 1240, nomadic Vlachs (romanians) started to migrate towards modern romania, and their (turkic) Cuman overlords (like the wallachian state-founder prince Basarab) established their first Vlach romanian principalities. Romanian lands became vassal state of the Hungarian kings and later they were vassals of Polish kings. In the 16th century, romania became an Ottoman province until the Congress of Berlin in 1878.
Since the 16th century the settled life slowly became dominant lifestyle among the formerly mostly nomadic-shepherd romanians. It doesn't sound a very civilized interesting and important history...

[Vlatko Vukovic]

If he belonged to Eurasian Z93 branch, it would confirm speculation that Arpads were actually Turks.

Blogen is genious! He has great knowledge.

[Böri]

Q/C/N would be prefered xD

[Carpatz]

In the reality, the late-nomad Vlach shepherds of the Balkans (the ancestors of modern Romanians) migrated from Bulgaria and South-Eastern Serbia to the present-day territory of Romania in the 13th century. The irrational daco-romanian continuity myth is nothing more than a "NATIVIST" state-propaganda. This chauvinist propaganda was born & started with the teachings of the "Transylvanian School" (A politically very active "cultural" organization) in the era of national awakening & nationalism. The fantasies and myths of "Transylvanian School" served and followed strictly the romanian national & political interests since the very beginnings. It's the compulsory curriculum for children in romania since the communist Gheorghiu-Dej, and especially under Ceausescu's directives , this national belief/religion became the central core of modern Romanian identity. Fortunately it is not generally accepted by western academic scholars. That's why all major Western Encyclopedias (E.Encarta, E. Britannica, E.Americana, German Brockhaus, French Larousse etc...) mention the romanian state-supported daco-romanian myth, but they are also mention the reality: the Vlach nomad migration from the Balkans in the 13th century.
Vlach (name for medieval & early modern romanians in European chronicles) was the latest nation who introduced the literacy in Europe, and they were one of the latest shepherd nomadic people in Europe.


I. THE PROBLEMS WITH DACIANS AND the so-called "ROMANS"(???) in the theory:


I/1st: There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the late 12th century) proofs for the survival of Dacian ethnic group after Roman withdrawal.


I/2nd: Dacian vocabulary did not remain for the posterior, only same names of tribal leaders remained.




The neo-latin elements in Romanian language remain the best proof agaist daco-roman theory. Unlike in the case of other European neo-latin/romance languages, there are no proofs for development of dacian language into a neo-latin romance language.






I/3rd: The dacian conquest was the shortest lasting conquest of the Roman Empire in Europe, it lasted only 160years, the relations between the Roman legions and dacians remianed very hostile. This very short & hostile circumstance are not an ideal contingency for a real romanization process.


I/4th: The BARBARIZATION of the Roman Army: Despite that average Romanian people tend to believe that they are also descendants of the "Ancient Romans/Latins" it is very far from historical reality. The BARBARIZATION of the Roman army was very (shockingly) massive and rapid since the end of the first century: the 90% of the “Roman” army had not Roman/Latin or Italian ancestry since the end of the 1st century. The contemporary multi-ethnic legionaries were Roman citizens, but they were recruited from various primarily multinational, non-Latin provinces, so THEY WERE NOT ROMANS or LATINS.


II. MIGRATION PERIOD PROBLEMS of the THEORY


II/1st: The migration of series of BRUTAL BARBARIAN tribes: There are no CONTEMPORARY historic records for the survive of dacians after the Roman withdrawal, and later the territory was the FOCAL POINT of great migrations. The area saw serials of many strong powerful and brutal barbaric tribes and people such as Goths, Huns, Longobards, Gepids, Avars, Pechenegs and later Cumans. UNLIKE the Vlach ancestors of modern Romanians, all of these barbarian ethnic groups WERE HISTORICALLY RECORDED countless times in contemporary (4th - 9th century) written sources in the dark age & early medieval period. After the centuries barbarian invasions, the written records mentioned only Slavic speaking populations in the area under turkic- Cuman rule, but they didn't mention the existence of any neo-latino /romance speaking population. However there are tons of contemporary written documents (chronicles from early medieval to high medieval era , from 4th to 11th century) about the shepherd nomad Vlachs in the Balkan peninsula, but there are no material or written proofs for their existence in the present-day territory of Romania before the 1200s.


II/2nd: The complete LACK OF any LINGUISTIC INFLUENCES OF BARBARIANS of the area on Romanian language: There is also no trace of lingual influence from any of the other peoples who lived in Transylvania after the withdrawal of the Romans: The the Huns, Goths, Gepids Longobards, Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans. If these languages did not have any influence on the Rumanian language, we can be sure that this is proof that at that time there were no Wallachian settlers in Transylvania.


III. The Vlachs Neo-Latin (Romance speaking) peopulation, and the PROBLEM of the missing 800 years in contemporary chronicles.


III/1st: There are no material proofs (cemetries or vlach cultic places) which can support the Vlach (romance speaking population) existence in present-day territory of romania before the 1200s. There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the late 12th century) written documents about the existence Vlachs (neo-latino/romance speaking population) in the territory of later Vallachia, Moldavia, and especially in Transylvania before the 1200s. WERE WERE YOU HIDING FROM THE EYES OF CHRONICLERS for more than 800 years dear "daco"-"romans"?


III/2nd: The earliest romanian chronicle was Grigore Ureche's chronicle in the early 17th century(!!!), who wrote about the balkan migration of his Vlach people. There were no orthodox bishopry in medieval Vallachia & Moldavia, even most of the monks and priests had to be „imported” from Serbia. Due to the lack of medieval literacy and medieval literature and own romanian history writing/chronicles, the poor romanians had to built up a so-called "speculative history-writting" (or fabricated history), where speculations based on earlier speculations and fictions etc..







IV. LINGUISTIC PROBLEMS of the THEORY


IV/1st Only the BALKAN Valchs were recorded as neo-latin speakers in the Eastern European and South-Eastern European region in the contemporary Chronicles (4th-13th century). Which is not surprising, because the Roman rule lasted for 500+ years in many territories of Balkan peninsula (where vlach neo-latin speaker nomads were very often mentioned by many early medieval chronicles)


IV/2nd: The problem of HYDRONYMS and TOPONYMS: Other interesting fact, that Romanian language borrowed the already existing Slavic, Hungarian and Saxon origin toponyms and hydronyms of Transylvania. It is a very well known and clear practice of immigrant populations.


IV/3rd: The "great Latin" medieval Romanian vlachs always fiercely resisted against the Western Latin (Catholic) Church and its Latin liturgy, they chosed the Slavic Orthodox church which used church-slavonic language istead of Latin. (It was due to the fact that old romanian language contained more slavic words than latin, because the church-slavonic liturgy was more understandable for their people.


IV/4th: Huge LINGUISTIC REFORMS of the 19th century: During the creation of romanian literary language and language reforms in the 19th century, the high ratio of south-slavic, albanian and turkic words were purged from the vocabulary of the romanian language, and they were replaced by adopted modern French Italian and other modern-era neo-latin words, French and Italian neologisms and even full modern French expressions were adopted to replace the old ones. These new modern Western European (modern French & Italian) romance expressions and words simply did not exist in the era original ancient latin speaking populations or in the vulgar latin languages.


IV/5th: ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM in old romanian language: Let's don't forget, that the old Romanian language also contained serious ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM before the linguistic reforms. Moreover, the old Romanian language was the only language in Europe which contained Albanian substratum. This also supports the balkan migrations in the high medieval period.




The imagined "glorious past" and the opposing historical reality:
The territory of modern romania belonged to the Bulgaria first, later it came under Byzantine rule. From the late 11th century, the territory was occupied and ruled by the turkic Cuman tribes. After the brutal mongol invasions and attacks in 1240, nomadic Vlachs (romanians) started to migrate towards modern romania, and their (turkic) Cuman overlords (like the wallachian state-founder prince Basarab) established their first Vlach romanian principalities. Romanian lands became vassal state of the Hungarian kings and later they were vassals of Polish kings. In the 16th century, romania became an Ottoman province until the Congress of Berlin in 1878.
Since the 16th century the settled life slowly became dominant lifestyle among the formerly mostly nomadic-shepherd romanians. It doesn't sound a very civilized interesting and important history...

Lol my ydna is more autochthonous and related to Arpad. Your ancestors came to Transylvania in late medieval times from Saxony.

[Dragan Ciganovic]

In the reality, the late-nomad Vlach shepherds of the Balkans (the ancestors of modern Romanians) migrated from Bulgaria and South-Eastern Serbia to the present-day territory of Romania in the 13th century. The irrational daco-romanian continuity myth is nothing more than a "NATIVIST" state-propaganda. This chauvinist propaganda was born & started with the teachings of the "Transylvanian School" (A politically very active "cultural" organization) in the era of national awakening & nationalism. The fantasies and myths of "Transylvanian School" served and followed strictly the romanian national & political interests since the very beginnings. It's the compulsory curriculum for children in romania since the communist Gheorghiu-Dej, and especially under Ceausescu's directives , this national belief/religion became the central core of modern Romanian identity. Fortunately it is not generally accepted by western academic scholars. That's why all major Western Encyclopedias (E.Encarta, E. Britannica, E.Americana, German Brockhaus, French Larousse etc...) mention the romanian state-supported daco-romanian myth, but they are also mention the reality: the Vlach nomad migration from the Balkans in the 13th century.
Vlach (name for medieval & early modern romanians in European chronicles) was the latest nation who introduced the literacy in Europe, and they were one of the latest shepherd nomadic people in Europe.


I. THE PROBLEMS WITH DACIANS AND the so-called "ROMANS"(???) in the theory:


I/1st: There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the late 12th century) proofs for the survival of Dacian ethnic group after Roman withdrawal.


I/2nd: Dacian vocabulary did not remain for the posterior, only same names of tribal leaders remained.




The neo-latin elements in Romanian language remain the best proof agaist daco-roman theory. Unlike in the case of other European neo-latin/romance languages, there are no proofs for development of dacian language into a neo-latin romance language.






I/3rd: The dacian conquest was the shortest lasting conquest of the Roman Empire in Europe, it lasted only 160years, the relations between the Roman legions and dacians remianed very hostile. This very short & hostile circumstance are not an ideal contingency for a real romanization process.


I/4th: The BARBARIZATION of the Roman Army: Despite that average Romanian people tend to believe that they are also descendants of the "Ancient Romans/Latins" it is very far from historical reality. The BARBARIZATION of the Roman army was very (shockingly) massive and rapid since the end of the first century: the 90% of the “Roman” army had not Roman/Latin or Italian ancestry since the end of the 1st century. The contemporary multi-ethnic legionaries were Roman citizens, but they were recruited from various primarily multinational, non-Latin provinces, so THEY WERE NOT ROMANS or LATINS.


II. MIGRATION PERIOD PROBLEMS of the THEORY


II/1st: The migration of series of BRUTAL BARBARIAN tribes: There are no CONTEMPORARY historic records for the survive of dacians after the Roman withdrawal, and later the territory was the FOCAL POINT of great migrations. The area saw serials of many strong powerful and brutal barbaric tribes and people such as Goths, Huns, Longobards, Gepids, Avars, Pechenegs and later Cumans. UNLIKE the Vlach ancestors of modern Romanians, all of these barbarian ethnic groups WERE HISTORICALLY RECORDED countless times in contemporary (4th - 9th century) written sources in the dark age & early medieval period. After the centuries barbarian invasions, the written records mentioned only Slavic speaking populations in the area under turkic- Cuman rule, but they didn't mention the existence of any neo-latino /romance speaking population. However there are tons of contemporary written documents (chronicles from early medieval to high medieval era , from 4th to 11th century) about the shepherd nomad Vlachs in the Balkan peninsula, but there are no material or written proofs for their existence in the present-day territory of Romania before the 1200s.


II/2nd: The complete LACK OF any LINGUISTIC INFLUENCES OF BARBARIANS of the area on Romanian language: There is also no trace of lingual influence from any of the other peoples who lived in Transylvania after the withdrawal of the Romans: The the Huns, Goths, Gepids Longobards, Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans. If these languages did not have any influence on the Rumanian language, we can be sure that this is proof that at that time there were no Wallachian settlers in Transylvania.


III. The Vlachs Neo-Latin (Romance speaking) peopulation, and the PROBLEM of the missing 800 years in contemporary chronicles.


III/1st: There are no material proofs (cemetries or vlach cultic places) which can support the Vlach (romance speaking population) existence in present-day territory of romania before the 1200s. There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the late 12th century) written documents about the existence Vlachs (neo-latino/romance speaking population) in the territory of later Vallachia, Moldavia, and especially in Transylvania before the 1200s. WERE WERE YOU HIDING FROM THE EYES OF CHRONICLERS for more than 800 years dear "daco"-"romans"?


III/2nd: The earliest romanian chronicle was Grigore Ureche's chronicle in the early 17th century(!!!), who wrote about the balkan migration of his Vlach people. There were no orthodox bishopry in medieval Vallachia & Moldavia, even most of the monks and priests had to be „imported” from Serbia. Due to the lack of medieval literacy and medieval literature and own romanian history writing/chronicles, the poor romanians had to built up a so-called "speculative history-writting" (or fabricated history), where speculations based on earlier speculations and fictions etc..







IV. LINGUISTIC PROBLEMS of the THEORY


IV/1st Only the BALKAN Valchs were recorded as neo-latin speakers in the Eastern European and South-Eastern European region in the contemporary Chronicles (4th-13th century). Which is not surprising, because the Roman rule lasted for 500+ years in many territories of Balkan peninsula (where vlach neo-latin speaker nomads were very often mentioned by many early medieval chronicles)


IV/2nd: The problem of HYDRONYMS and TOPONYMS: Other interesting fact, that Romanian language borrowed the already existing Slavic, Hungarian and Saxon origin toponyms and hydronyms of Transylvania. It is a very well known and clear practice of immigrant populations.


IV/3rd: The "great Latin" medieval Romanian vlachs always fiercely resisted against the Western Latin (Catholic) Church and its Latin liturgy, they chosed the Slavic Orthodox church which used church-slavonic language istead of Latin. (It was due to the fact that old romanian language contained more slavic words than latin, because the church-slavonic liturgy was more understandable for their people.


IV/4th: Huge LINGUISTIC REFORMS of the 19th century: During the creation of romanian literary language and language reforms in the 19th century, the high ratio of south-slavic, albanian and turkic words were purged from the vocabulary of the romanian language, and they were replaced by adopted modern French Italian and other modern-era neo-latin words, French and Italian neologisms and even full modern French expressions were adopted to replace the old ones. These new modern Western European (modern French & Italian) romance expressions and words simply did not exist in the era original ancient latin speaking populations or in the vulgar latin languages.


IV/5th: ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM in old romanian language: Let's don't forget, that the old Romanian language also contained serious ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM before the linguistic reforms. Moreover, the old Romanian language was the only language in Europe which contained Albanian substratum. This also supports the balkan migrations in the high medieval period.




The imagined "glorious past" and the opposing historical reality:
The territory of modern romania belonged to the Bulgaria first, later it came under Byzantine rule. From the late 11th century, the territory was occupied and ruled by the turkic Cuman tribes. After the brutal mongol invasions and attacks in 1240, nomadic Vlachs (romanians) started to migrate towards modern romania, and their (turkic) Cuman overlords (like the wallachian state-founder prince Basarab) established their first Vlach romanian principalities. Romanian lands became vassal state of the Hungarian kings and later they were vassals of Polish kings. In the 16th century, romania became an Ottoman province until the Congress of Berlin in 1878.
Since the 16th century the settled life slowly became dominant lifestyle among the formerly mostly nomadic-shepherd romanians. It doesn't sound a very civilized interesting and important history...

Very interesting

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Now he has to be called Adalbert or Белы :)

Or Beli Orao. xD

[Dick]

Of course he was R1a. Did anyone seriously think an I-person could found such a significant dynasty? :lol:


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25236-Haplogroups-of-European-kings-and-queens/page3

House of Bjälbo; Birger founded the capital stockholm.

Valdemar I of Sweden (1239–1302) => I1 (Y-DNA), Z1a (mtDNA)
Magnus III of Sweden (1240-1290) => I1 (Y-DNA), Z1a (mtDNA)
Birger I of Sweden (1280-1321) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Valdemar, Duke of Finland (1280s-1318) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Magnus IV of Sweden (1316-1374) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Eric XII of Sweden (1339-1359) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Haakon VI of Sweden & Norway (1340-1380) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Olaf II of Denmark & Norway (1370-1387) => I1 (Y-DNA)

Karadjordjevic Dynasty is also I2a. There may be more I-Dynasties.

[Carpatz]

Very interesting

sup stears

[Jana]

sup stears

It's not Stears :)

[Rethel]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25236-Haplogroups-of-European-kings-and-queens/page3

House of Bjälbo; Birger founded the capital stockholm.

Valdemar I of Sweden (1239–1302) => I1 (Y-DNA), Z1a (mtDNA)
Magnus III of Sweden (1240-1290) => I1 (Y-DNA), Z1a (mtDNA)
Birger I of Sweden (1280-1321) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Valdemar, Duke of Finland (1280s-1318) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Magnus IV of Sweden (1316-1374) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Eric XII of Sweden (1339-1359) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Haakon VI of Sweden & Norway (1340-1380) => I1 (Y-DNA)
Olaf II of Denmark & Norway (1370-1387) => I1 (Y-DNA)

Karadjordjevic Dynasty is also I2a. There may be more I-Dynasties.

Both not "natural" and short living... and quiate usurpic.

[Jana]

I would like to know Y of Croatian royal dynasty (house of Trpimirović), but, there are no known preserved remains of them :(

[magyar_lány]

It's not Stears :)

I hope bc this troll guy is very irritating.;)

[Dick]

Both not "natural" and short living... and quiate usurpic.

Shut up faggot.

[Jana]

I hope bc this troll guy is very irritating.;)

:P

[Dibran]

Say, I do not have an intuition...

=>> https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228252-The-Kingdom-of-Pannonia-was-actually-indoeuropean-until-1867&highlight=indoeuropean+kingdom


was he belong to Z280 subclade (or Z93) ? It is known ? This is big discovery!

It would be interesting if he came up M458.

[Jackson78]

So, Arapads were R1 horsefuckers.

[Dibran]

Beats being I2 goat fuckers.

[Dick]

Beats being I2 goat fuckers.

The muslim I2 guys are into that.

[EdwardS]

R1a - either from the Bashkirs or from the Iranians! Let's remind the Arpad came to Hungary from the east!

[Dibran]

The muslim I2 guys are into that.

Explains Bosniensis genetics lol.

[Dibran]

R1a - either from the Bashkirs or from the Iranians! Let's remind the Arpad came to Hungary from the east!

Most likely. It would definitely shake things up if he was Z280 or M458.

[Stears]

According to "Gesta Hungarorum" Arpads were descended from Attila the Hun.

More exactly Gesta considered Árpád as the great grandson of Attila, but Gesta did not care about the elimination of 300 years from the Human history. It is similar to the phantom time hypothesis is a historical conspiracy theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory) asserted by Heribert Illig.

[Stears]

Say, I do not have an intuition...

=>> https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228252-The-Kingdom-of-Pannonia-was-actually-indoeuropean-until-1867&highlight=indoeuropean+kingdom

Western Europeans are not descendants of proto IE people. Most of Hungary is not part of former Pannonian province of the Roman Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Basin

The name "Pannonian" comes from Pannonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia), a province of the Roman Empire. Only the western part of the territory (the so-called Transdanubia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transdanubia)) of modern Hungary formed part of the ancient Roman Province of Pannonia; this comprises less than 29% of modern Hungary, therefore Hungarian geographers avoid the terms "Pannonian Basin" and "Pannonian Plain".

[TheForeigner]

He is heartbroken, Bela III is his favorite King :(

But really, this only confirms what I suspected, and what Blogen wrote many times, that R1a was primarly haplogroup of conquering Magyars, not N1c.

Arpad kings probably intermarried with other European royalty by then already. Maybe someone knows something about this.

[Dunai]

Arpad kings probably intermarried with other European royalty by then already. Maybe someone knows something about this.

Indeed, the Árpád House was well mingled in and mixed with pan-European royalty, descending from all over Europe. Just another proof why Hungary is one of the essential states of Europe as we understand it today (post-Charles Martel). Based on a quick research, particularly Béla III from his mother's side he had Kievan Rus, Anglo Saxon, Byzantine and Varangian ancestry, while from his father's side he had Hungarian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Byzantine, Armenian, Kievan Rus, Varengian, Bohemian, Polish, Lotharingian, Lusatian, Polabian ancestry.

[TheForeigner]

Indeed, the Árpád House was well mingled in and mixed with pan-European royalty, descending from all over Europe. Just another proof why Hungary is one of the essential states of Europe as we understand it today (post-Charles Martel). Based on a quick research, particularly Béla III from his mother's side he had Kievan Rus, Anglo Saxon, Byzantine and Varangian ancestry, while from his father's side he had Hungarian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Byzantine, Armenian, Kievan Rus, Varengian, Bohemian, Polish, Lotharingian, Lusatian, Polabian ancestry.

So it's naive to try and figure out anything about Hungarian conqueror genetics, from this genetic study of Arpad dynasty king.

[Dunai]

So it's naive to try and figure out anything about Hungarian conqueror genetics, from this genetic study of Arpad dynasty king.

Of course that by late 13th century the Árpád Dynasty was already very involved in European affairs, also providing rulers to other states. The pure "Hungarianness" of the Árpád House ended with Béla I reign (who had a foreign wife) in mid 12th century, whose lineage gave the future kings of mixed ancestry of Hungary.

[Turul Karom]

R1 Turkic pride!

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/74/8c/06/748c0692fff3881b28c8b97f80ff736f.jpg

[Jackson78]

Both not "natural" and short living... and quiate usurpic.

Shut up horsefucker.

[Bosniensis]

Shut up horsefucker.

I kroati su svi R1 mađari kad uzeš u obzir da je dalmacija od neki dan u sastavu hrvatske.

[Jana]

I kroati su svi R1 mađari kad uzeš u obzir da je dalmacija od neki dan u sastavu hrvatske.

:lmao:

When will you realize man in your avatar is R1a ? The bitter irony...

[Turul Karom]

He is heartbroken, Bela III is his favorite King :(

But really, this only confirms what I suspected, and what Blogen wrote many times, that R1a was primarly haplogroup of conquering Magyars, not N1c.

There is no reason for him to be so forlorn. We are simply re-affirming our known truth about our ancestors. Even if Stears is not R1, he still has Turkic ancestry that appears in his various DNA results and in our founding Magyar culture.

[Bosniensis]

:lmao:

When will you realize man in your avatar is R1a ? The bitter irony...

Učitelju svijeta dr. jovanu deretiću je sve oprošteno pa i haplogrupa, odjebi :)

[Jana]

Učitelju svijeta dr. jovanu deretiću je sve oprošteno pa i haplogrupa, odjebi :)

Speak to your goat keeping mate like that, darling. And stop spamming this thread ...

[Bosniensis]

Speak to your goat keeping mate like that, darling. And stop spamming this thread ...

You replied to me, I haven't asked you for opinion about anything. Cheers.

[Jana]

You replied to me, I haven't asked you for opinion about anything. Cheers.

Don't mention Croats or Croatia again idiot. We have nothing to do with you. If you have no comment related to the topic, simply go elswhere.

[Jana]

There is no reason for him to be so forlorn. We are simply re-affirming our known truth about our ancestors. Even if Stears is not R1, he still has Turkic ancestry that appears in his various DNA results and in our founding Magyar culture.

If Arpad is truly Z93 branch of R1a, it should really mean he had Turkic roots. But if the was Z280 branch, it would mean something very different, as that is completely European subclade and most common among ordinary Hungarians today.

[Bosniensis]

Don't mention Croats or Croatia again idiot. We have nothing to do with you. If you have no comment related to the topic, simply go elswhere.

Ostavi me se ženska glavo.... maltretiraš me...nisam ti ništa rekao.. begaj

[Stears]

Ostavi me se ženska glavo.... maltretiraš me...nisam ti ništa rekao.. begaj

Primitive shepherd boy! Stop your third worlder gypsy speech.

[Stears]

There is no reason for him to be so forlorn. We are simply re-affirming our known truth about our ancestors. Even if Stears is not R1, he still has Turkic ancestry that appears in his various DNA results and in our founding Magyar culture.

No, I have not mongoloid, which is crucial to have Turkic ancestry.

[Bosniensis]

Primitive shepherd boy! Stop your third worlder gypsy speech.

;)

What do you want Stears...

[Turul Karom]

If Arpad is truly Z93 branch of R1a, it should really mean he had Turkic roots. But if the was Z280 branch, it would mean something very different, as that is completely European subclade and most common among ordinary Hungarians today.

Both can be arguably Turkic; it is the degree of Turkicness that is the debate. Not to mention, many Turkic peoples today have various different haplogroups including and outside of R1.

Regardless R1 is Eurasian in origin, and highlights the Asian origins ol that show prominently in our culture and history.

[Turul Karom]

No, I have not mongoloid, which is crucial to have Turkic ancestry.

Not necessarily at all. Many Turkic peoples can have very little "Mongoloid" DNA. Besides, you do have East Asian results and a notable Turkic calculator score. Don't fall for the idea that you must be purely "East Asian" to be Turkic; the early Magyars certainly were not this stereotype (they were blend of Ugric and Turkic peoples).

Don't be sad about this R1 result. It shows that we live in times of scentific study and great progress in sorting truth from fiction. As I have always said, as long as Magyars are free in our own country, we will always align with our family in the east.

This doesn't make you any less European or out of place in Europe. Our unique Turkic flavour is not Oghuz, Uyghur, or Pecheneg. We are Magyars, and we embrace our past with pride.

[Rethel]

:lmao:

When will you realize man in your avatar is R1a ? The bitter irony...

How?

[Rethel]

The pure "Hungarianness" of the Árpád House ended with Béla I reign (who had a foreign wife) in mid 12th century, whose lineage gave the future kings of mixed ancestry of Hungary.

https://static.techspot.com/images2/news/bigimage/2017/01/2017-01-18-image-3.jpg

[Bosniensis]

https://static.techspot.com/images2/news/bigimage/2017/01/2017-01-18-image-3.jpg

Wifes are not important as far as succession is concerned.

R1a son has legal claims to throne even if his father married Han woman.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

R1 Turkic pride!

Only in brain-dead countries.

[Rethel]

Arpad kings probably intermarried with other European royalty by then already. Maybe someone knows something about this.

And what it has to do with the topic?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

When will you realize man in your avatar is R1a ? The bitter irony...

Don't bark on R1ethel. He is in Eupedia described as proto-Slav (M458).

[Bosniensis]

Don't bark on R1ethel. He is in Eupedia described as proto-Slav (M458).

some say he is the first R1 ever appeared on Earth and that he survived to this day to defend his progeny (r1theloids)

[Jana]

How?

Dr. Jovan Deretić. Serbian pseudo historian who propagate autochtonous Balkan origin of all Slavic groups, came out as R1a Z280 in DNA testing. So not a native at all :picard1:

But this is completely unrelated to topic...

[Vlatko Vukovic]

some say he is the first R1 ever appeared on Earth and that he survived to this day to defend his progeny (r1theloids)

The movie should be created: "The last knight of the R1 race".

[blogen]

If Arpad is truly Z93 branch of R1a, it should really mean he had Turkic roots. But if the was Z280 branch, it would mean something very different, as that is completely European subclade and most common among ordinary Hungarians today.

Z93 = Aryans and Ugrics.

[Jana]

Both can be arguably Turkic; it is the degree of Turkicness that is the debate. Not to mention, many Turkic peoples today have various different haplogroups including and outside of R1.

Regardless R1 is Eurasian in origin, and highlights the Asian origins ol that show prominently in our culture and history.

But Z280 is common only in Europe, among Baltic, Slavic and Finno Ugric groups. They definitelly aren't turkic.

[Jana]

Z93 = Aryans and Ugrics.

So you think Z280 wasn't original Ugric marker ?

[Bosniensis]

I don't know why people dislike being Turks. I do attack modern Turks from Turkey because they are not real Turks but fake Turks.

Being Turk is awesome, great ancestry from Genghis Khan who butchered seas of people, scorched earth etc.. (I mean that's awesome reputation of Turkic Warlord)

But we have a problem of understanding Who is Turk and Who isn't.

There are many wannabe Turks.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Both can be arguably Turkic; it is the degree of Turkicness that is the debate. Not to mention, many Turkic peoples today have various different haplogroups including and outside of R1.

Regardless R1 is Eurasian in origin, and highlights the Asian origins ol that show prominently in our culture and history.

Z280 can't be Turkic in any case. Same as M458.

[Bosniensis]

Dr. Jovan Deretić. Serbian pseudo historian who propagate autochtonous Balkan origin of all Slavic groups, came out as R1a Z280 in DNA testing. So not a native at all :picard1:

But this is completely unrelated to topic...

This is Dzemal Bijedic in my Avatar... do not lie!

What Jovan Deretić? I've never heard for anyone named "Jovan Deretić".

Scram.

[Ülev]

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/4182/4018

THE STORY OF TWO NORTHWARD MIGRATIONS - ORIGINS OF FINNO - PERMIC AND BALTO - SLAVIC LANGUAGES IN NORTHEAST EUROPE, BASED ON HUMAN Y - CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUPS

in short R1a M558 carried Ugro-Permiac languages, R1a M458 with I2a was already "Slavic"


Карта генетических расстояний от популяции эрзя до популяций Евразии. Зеленым цветом обозначены зоны генетического сходства (О.П.Балановский) // Map of genetic distances from the Erzya population to the populations of Eurasia. Green areas denote zones of genetic similarity (OP Balanovskiy)
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/Ris.-5.28-494x5001-494x500.jpg

[Ülev]

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.5.jpg

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.4.jpg

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.3.jpg

maps source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

[Bosniensis]

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/4182/4018

THE STORY OF TWO NORTHWARD MIGRATIONS - ORIGINS OF FINNO - PERMIC AND BALTO - SLAVIC LANGUAGES IN NORTHEAST EUROPE, BASED ON HUMAN Y - CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUPS

in short R1a M558 carried Ugro-Permiac languages, R1a M458 with I2a was already "Slavic"


Карта генетических расстояний от популяции эрзя до популяций Евразии. Зеленым цветом обозначены зоны генетического сходства (О.П.Балановский) // Map of genetic distances from the Erzya population to the populations of Eurasia. Green areas denote zones of genetic similarity (OP Balanovskiy)
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/Ris.-5.28-494x5001-494x500.jpg

Oh my I love Russian Cyrillic it's like you almost can understand it, but you can't.

[blogen]

So you think Z280 wasn't original Ugric marker ?

Inner and Central Asia is an overlap zone for the R1a1-Z280 and R1a1-Z93 lineages [which] implies that an early differentiation zone of R1a1-M198 conceivably occurred somewhere within the Eurasian Steppes or the Middle East and Caucasus region as they lie between South Asia and Central- and Eastern Europe."
Pamjav, Horolma; Fehér, Tibor; Németh, Endre; Pádár, Zsolt (2012), "Brief communication: new Y-chromosome binary markers improve phylogenetic resolution within haplogroup R1a1", American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 149 (4): 611–615, doi:10.1002/ajpa.22167, PMID 23115110

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Oh my I love Russian Cyrillic it's like you almost can understand it, but you can't.

How you can't? I actually understood this sentence. :D

[Jana]

This is what they think on Hungarian FTDNA project

R1a-Z280: the North-EastEuropean subclade of R1a-M417, approximately 4700 years old. It is common from the Baltic to the Urals as well as the Carpathian Basin. Part of the Steppe Magyars likely belonged to this group, as the “Carpathian B type” typically appears in Russia and the Carpathian Basin. The “Carpathian D type” is typical for Slovenes and Hungarians. The Z92 subgroup is more typical for Northeast Europe (Balts, Russians and Volga Finns). The subgroups of M458 and Z280 might be linked to Bronze Age Central European Lusatian Culture (1300-500 BC) basedon their age and geographic spread.
R1a-Z93: the Asian subgroup of R1a-M417, approximately 4700 years old. It is common among Altaian Turks, Kyrghyz, Ashkenazi Jews, Indians and Eastern Iranians. Associated with the Central Asian Bronze Age Andronovo culture. In the Carpathian basin, it can be considered as Turkic admixture.


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/hungarian-magyar-y-dna-project/about/results

[Turul Karom]

But Z280 is common only in Europe, among Baltic, Slavic and Finno Ugric groups. They definitelly aren't turkic.


Z280 can't be Turkic in any case. Same as M458.

The proto - Magyars were a blend of Ugric and Turkic peoples, with a Turkic culture and a fusion of Uralic (Ugric branch) and Turkic words for the language. Therefore it does not surprise me if the R1 downstream is either.

[Jana]

Inner and Central Asia is an overlap zone for the R1a1-Z280 and R1a1-Z93 lineages [which] implies that an early differentiation zone of R1a1-M198 conceivably occurred somewhere within the Eurasian Steppes or the Middle East and Caucasus region as they lie between South Asia and Central- and Eastern Europe."
Pamjav, Horolma; Fehér, Tibor; Németh, Endre; Pádár, Zsolt (2012), "Brief communication: new Y-chromosome binary markers improve phylogenetic resolution within haplogroup R1a1", American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 149 (4): 611–615, doi:10.1002/ajpa.22167, PMID 23115110

:thumb001:

[Ülev]

Because of fact that Hungarians (whatever they were called back then) took Christianity and were baptized they rescued original R1a language of Ugro-Permic folk, conquerors (Rome Christianity) impose rules, religion and language. White Croats and Serbs went south (or already were there) imposed their language to other Sarmatians (like R1a M458 people)

easy as that

[Bosniensis]

I2a1 is Turkic

R1a is Indo-European Balkan Native & Slavic.

Avars came to Dalmatia as I2a1, conquered it, pillaged it and now we live here.

Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats who carry I2 are Avars Turks children of Bayan.

R1a are Slavic & Native survivors who fled to Hungary and North East.

[Jana]

The proto - Magyars were a blend of Ugric and Turkic peoples, with a Turkic culture and a fusion of Uralic (Ugric branch) and Turkic words for the language. Therefore it does not surprise me if the R1 downstream is either.

Problem is that Z280 is by far most common type of R1a is all southern slavic countries (except Bulgaria), and we don't have any known Turkic connections.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Because of fact that Hungarians (whatever they was called back then) took Christianity and were baptized they rescued original R1a language of Ugro-Permic folk, conquerors (Rome Christianity) impose rules, religion and language. White Croats and Serbs went south (or already were there) imposed their language to other Sarmatians (like R1a M458 people)

easy as that

So you think that White Croats and Serbs "slavicized" Rethelites? Then from where they picked up this language, since I2-Din didn't speak IE haha.

[blogen]

The proto - Magyars were a blend of Ugric and Turkic peoples, with a Turkic culture and a fusion of Uralic (Ugric branch) and Turkic words for the language. Therefore it does not surprise me if the R1 downstream is either.

The Turks where nowhere when the proto-Magyars existed in the Western Siberian steppe (Cherkaskul culture). They were Aryan-Ugric admixture between the frames of the post-Andronovan world. The early medieval Magyars admixed with Turks from the West Old Turkic speakers.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Problem is that Z280 is by far most common type of R1a is all southern slavic countries (except Bulgaria), and we don't have any known Turkic connections.

Not all Z280 are Balto-Slavic exclusively. There are some exceptions.

[Nanushka]

I do attack modern Turks from Turkey because they are not real Turks but fake Turks.

How do you mean, the ones mixed with persian origins and arabs in Turkey? Because thats what happened and still being happened today, their DNA is changing

[Jana]

Not all Z280 are Balto-Slavic exclusively. There are some exceptions.

Yes, it is common in Finno Ugric groups as well. But not among Turks. Only among Tatars and Chuvash, who are largerly turkicized Volga Finnic peoples.

Central Asian Turks are by far pred. Z93.

[Ülev]

So you think that White Croats and Serbs "slavicized" Rethelites? Then from where they picked up this language, since I2-Din didn't speak IE haha.

Svaanik Kumar explain South Slavic & Sanskrit similarities, and please also note that Old-Avestan is also closer to South Slavic than to R1ethelite languages


https://youtu.be/ptDVaVlw9m4

[Stears]

The proto - Magyars were a blend of Ugric and Turkic peoples, with a Turkic culture and a fusion of Uralic (Ugric branch) and Turkic words for the language. Therefore it does not surprise me if the R1 downstream is either.

Wrong again. Some loanwords doesn't make a language turkic. Before the language reforms of Kazinczy and his later followers, Hungarians have much more Latin and Germanic words in the vocabulary than Turkic. In the Old pre-19th century Hungarian vocabulary The most common was finno-ugric (and still the majority of the word are finno ugric origin,) It was followed by Slav Latin and Germanic origin words, than it was followed by Iranian and Turkic origin words.

Hungarians simply have the least eastern (mongoloid ) markers in the general population in the former communist Eastern Block countries.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I2a1 is Turkic

R1a is Indo-European Balkan Native & Slavic.

Avars came to Dalmatia as I2a1, conquered it, pillaged it and now we live here.

Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats who carry I2 are Avars Turks children of Bayan.

R1a are Slavic & Native survivors who fled to Hungary and North East.

I2a1 can't be turkic in any case. Even if Avars had this, those are some assimilated already IE-speaking folks.

[Bosniensis]

How do you mean, the ones mixed with persian origins and arabs in Turkey? Because thats what happened and still being happened today, their DNA is changing

Anatolia is mix of everything. To say they are all Turks is ridiculous.

Islamized Armenians, Serbs, Albanians, Syrian, Egyptians + then you have Turks, Mongols

Turkey is the most mixed country in Universe, just check the Haplogroups in Istanbul

[Ülev]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?235661-How-is-R-Z93-both-Aryan-and-Turkic

How is R-Z93 both Aryan and Turkic?

This Wikipedia map labels it as both Indo-Iranian and Central Asian Turkic. Can someone explain it?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups1.png

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Svaanik Kumar explain South Slavic & Sanskrit similarities, and please also note that Old-Avestan is also closer to South Slavic than to R1ethelite languages


https://youtu.be/ptDVaVlw9m4

Yes, bro. But it explains nothing. Lithuanian language is the closest to Sanskrit and they are R1a-Z280 + N. Nothing I2a about them.

[Jana]

In Hungary (and Croatia) group with most Z93 are local Gypsies. Yes, not trolling!

Hungarian and Croatian Gypsies are 30% R1a1- Z93! If Arpad is that, they are more related with them paternally than most of other people in Carpathian Basin.

[Jana]

R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93) (Asia)

R1a1b2a2* (R-M780) occurs at high frequency in South Asia: India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Himalayas. The group also occurs at >3% in some Iranian populations and is present at >30% in Roma from Croatia and Hungary.[57]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#R1a1a1b2_(R-Z93)_(Asia)

:P

[Turul Karom]

Problem is that Z280 is by far most common type of R1a is all southern slavic countries (except Bulgaria), and we don't have any known Turkic connections.

Many possibilities. Could be the founder effect. Could be a bottle neck. All of the Balkans post-Rome, from Attila, to Pechenegs, to Avars, to us, was full of Turkic and steppe nomadic peoples, with new Eurasian settlers coming in as well (Kabars, Cumans, etc). This is not a surprise.




The Turks where nowhere when the proto-Magyars existed in the Western Siberian steppe (Cherkaskul culture). They were Aryan-Ugric admixture between the frames of the post-Andronovan world. The early medieval Magyars admixed with Turks from the West Old Turkic speakers.

I quote the Encyclopedia Britannica on the ethnicities that would make our ancestral tribal confederations in Central Asia. That is all. Further Turkic infusion would happen for centuries after the founding of Hungary in Europe.

[Rethel]

In Hungary (and Croatia) group with most Z93 are local Gypsies. Yes, not trolling!

Hungarian and Croatian Gypsies are 30% R1a1- Z93! If Arpad is that, they are more related with them paternally than most of other people in Carpathian Basin.

It also depends how representative this group was.
And btw, more southern balkanian groups did not have R1
almost at all. Maybe 3% at best together a and b and 2.
And the testing groups was probably much more representative.

[Ülev]

Yes, bro. But it explains nothing. Lithuanian language is the closest to Sanskrit and they are R1a-Z280 + N. Nothing I2a about them.

it shows only that locals with R1a came to Europe following their ArI(a2)an teachers :rolleyes:

[Bosniensis]

R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93) (Asia)

R1a1b2a2* (R-M780) occurs at high frequency in South Asia: India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Himalayas. The group also occurs at >3% in some Iranian populations and is present at >30% in Roma from Croatia and Hungary.[57]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#R1a1a1b2_(R-Z93)_(Asia)

:P

:sick2::sick2::sick2::sick2:

:bullet puke:bullet puke:puke::puke::puke:puke

[Rethel]

Kazinczy

A Pole?


and his later followers, Hungarians have much more Latin and Germanic words in the vocabulary than Turkic. In the Old pre-19th century Hungarian vocabulary The most common was finno-ugric (and still the majority of the word are finno ugric origin,) It was followed by Slav Latin and Germanic origin words, than it was followed by Iranian and Turkic origin words.

How much of each?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

How do you mean, the ones mixed with persian origins and arabs in Turkey? Because thats what happened and still being happened today, their DNA is changing

With Arabs, Persians, Georgians, Armenians, Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Croatians, Kurds,...etc...etc

[Turul Karom]

Wrong again. Some loanwords doesn't make a language turkic. Before the language reforms of Kazinczy and his later followers, Hungarians have much more Latin and Germanic words in the vocabulary than Turkic. In the Old pre-19th century Hungarian vocabulary The most common was finno-ugric (and still the majority of the word are finno ugric origin,) It was followed by Slav Latin and Germanic origin words, than it was followed by Iranian and Turkic origin words.

Hungarians simply have the least eastern (mongoloid ) markers in the general population in the former communist Eastern Block countries.

We share the same core words for culture and lifestyle, like some foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives. We had the same religion. As Hungarians traveled west, we picked up more words from Slavic and Germanic peoples. No surprise. Our founder's names are all Turkic. Founding dynasty is R1. You quote the source that humorously states the the largest portion of Hungarian words are "unknown".

You did the results. You know you ancestry. You know it is intellectually dishonest to say Turkic people are "pure Mongoloid" in any sense of the word. More and more DNA research is being performed that further shows the Eurasian origins of us, and our Eurasian culture pre-Christianity is already a well known fact and is not debated.

Embrace both your European history and your Eurasian roots.

[Nanushka]

Anatolia is mix of everything. To say they are all Turks is ridiculous.

Islamized Armenians, Serbs, Albanians, Syrian, Egyptians + then you have Turks, Mongols

Turkey is the most mixed country in Universe, just check the Haplogroups in Istanbul

Its so normal when you live at the intersection of middle-east, balkans and caucasia, not to mention the migrations from Iraq and Syria

Mongol origin is very rare in Turkey, Turks are neither mongol origin nor middle-eastern

[Vlatko Vukovic]

The Turks where nowhere when the proto-Magyars existed in the Western Siberian steppe (Cherkaskul culture). They were Aryan-Ugric admixture between the frames of the post-Andronovan world. The early medieval Magyars admixed with Turks from the West Old Turkic speakers.

Blogen, what is the reason of the Magyar way of life such similar as Turkic? How it happened? I mean early medieval culture.

[Nanushka]

I2a1 is Turkic

Avars came to Dalmatia as I2a1, conquered it, pillaged it and now we live here.

Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats who carry I2 are Avars Turks children of Bayan.

Any DNA test results of Avars? I'd love to see the sources if you have

As far as I read Bosniaks are descendants of Pechenegs (Bachanak=Bosniak), I am not sure about the others

[Turul Karom]

Blogen, what is the reason of the Magyar way of life such similar as Turkic? How it happened?

Try to contain your shock, but it is because.... we are Turkic.

http://media.indiatimes.in/media/photogallery/2013/Aug/000_arp3615124_1376306505.jpg

[Vlatko Vukovic]

As far as I read Bosniaks are descendants of Pechenegs (Bachanak=Bosniak)

:bowlol: :bowlol: :bowlol: :bowlol:

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Try to contain your shock, but it is because.... we are Turkic.

http://media.indiatimes.in/media/photogallery/2013/Aug/000_arp3615124_1376306505.jpg

Then who imported to you Ugric language according to you?

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/E9JcPFn8j-c

[Turul Karom]

Then who imported to you Ugric language according to you?

Ugric people did, of course. During loose tribal confederation era in Central Asia, before the unity of the "Magyars" into one tribe identity and well before the blood oath at Etelköz, which solidified central organization further under the Árpád dynasty.

[Turul Karom]

https://youtu.be/E9JcPFn8j-c


https://youtu.be/Ko8B6KYJAo4

[Turul Karom]

(Double post by mistake)

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/11/f8/80/11f880c0903e62521d59dab7a31f2693--hungarian-heritage-fashion-history.jpg

[blogen]

Blogen, what is the reason of the Magyar way of life such similar as Turkic? How it happened? I mean early medieval culture.

The Turks rule the steppe, they were the mainstream in the culture. Nothing special, the Turkic culture was the "americanization" for the steppic peoples at this time.

[Bosniensis]

Any DNA test results of Avars? I'd love to see the sources if you have

As far as I read Bosniaks are descendants of Pechenegs (Bachanak=Bosniak), I am not sure about the others

Yeah we are Pechengs we just lost our identity through assimilation’s :/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nanushka]

:bowlol: :bowlol: :bowlol: :bowlol:

Apparently you Bosniaks are as confused as Turks in Turkey regarding your roots, perfectly normal

[Mingle]

Any DNA test results of Avars? I'd love to see the sources if you have

As far as I read Bosniaks are descendants of Pechenegs (Bachanak=Bosniak), I am not sure about the others

Bosniaks get their name from the Bosna River. The "-ak" in Bosniak is just a Slavic suffix, similar to the "-ak" in Polak. The Bosna River's name is believed to be of Illyrian etymology.

[Rethel]

It supposed to be about Arpads. It is about Balkans and Turks again. I am not surrprized.

[LoLeL]

It supposed to be about Arpads. It s about Balkans and Turks again. I am not surrprized.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/lol.gif

[Peterski]

What % of Hungarians have R1a? Because I've seen many conflicting figures.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Apparently you Bosniaks are as confused as Turks in Turkey regarding your roots, perfectly normal

Yes. I know. That is becouse the real Turks are rare in Turkey. That is the reason why you are confusing us with Turks.

[Jana]

What % of Hungarians have R1a? Because I've seen many conflicting figures.

Around 30% sound realistic.

[Dibran]

Z280 can't be Turkic in any case. Same as M458.

There is no aDNA for M458, so what it can or can't be, remains to be seen with sufficient aDNA evidence. Also, some basal M458 pops up in Caucasians, specifically Circassians like Adyghe and Shapsug, Karachay & Nogai. As I understand the major Russian invasion of their region wasn't until the 1800s. Karachay and Nogai are also heavily tribal and do not mix. Any number of possibilities exist at this point with no aDNA.

Central Europe was dominated by these steppe tribes. They also fucked like rabbits. I doubt any clade is exlusively anything until there is aDNA to show. If M458 pops up in Central Europe predating the migration event.

My personal opinion is that M458 is probably just Central Corded Ware and spread from around Poland/East Germany. I just find it very odd that we are supposed to believe M458 including its soon to develop clades were somehow locked behind some prison and randomly started only spreading out in the middle ages.

It occupied many areas in East Europe that could have easily been absorbed by any number of tribes occupying these geographical positions.

Some have said there is alot of R1a diversity around Romania, postulating it as a possible original point. But, I haven't seen any papers claiming such.

[TheForeigner]

And what it has to do with the topic?

Means his dna is of no use to find out more about conquering Hungarians genetics.

[Bosniensis]

I wish I was Mongol... it's so cool.

Being Serbian, Romanian is meh...

[Jana]

Some have said there is alot of R1a diversity around Romania, postulating it as a possible original point. But, I haven't seen any papers claiming such.

Interesting thing is that Eupedia mentions that some of highest R1a diversity overall is in south-eastern Europe, which I think sound suprising to many people.

[Dibran]

Because of fact that Hungarians (whatever they were called back then) took Christianity and were baptized they rescued original R1a language of Ugro-Permic folk, conquerors (Rome Christianity) impose rules, religion and language. White Croats and Serbs went south (or already were there) imposed their language to other Sarmatians (like R1a M458 people)

easy as that

You think M458 is Sarmatian? Some say its Central Corded Ware and was already in central europe prior to Sarmatians(this is my view). There doesnt seem to be any aDNA for M458. I do notice some basal M458 is popping up in Adyghe, Karachay, and Nogai(who are turkic unless I am mistaken).

[Vlatko Vukovic]

There is no aDNA for M458, so what it can or can't be, remains to be seen with sufficient aDNA evidence. Also, some basal M458 pops up in Caucasians, specifically Circassians like Adyghe and Shapsug, Karachay & Nogai. As I understand the major Russian invasion of their region wasn't until the 1800s. Karachay and Nogai are also heavily tribal and do not mix. Any number of possibilities exist at this point with no aDNA.

Central Europe was dominated by these steppe tribes. They also fucked like rabbits. I doubt any clade is exlusively anything until there is aDNA to show. If M458 pops up in Central Europe predating the migration event.

My personal opinion is that M458 is probably just Central Corded Ware and spread from around Poland/East Germany. I just find it very odd that we are supposed to believe M458 including its soon to develop clades were somehow locked behind some prison and randomly started only spreading out in the middle ages.

It occupied many areas in East Europe that could have easily been absorbed by any number of tribes occupying these geographical positions.

Some have said there is alot of R1a diversity around Romania, postulating it as a possible original point. But, I haven't seen any papers claiming such.

On Eupedia, they described them (M458) as proto-Slavs.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#subclades

[Vlatko Vukovic]

You think M458 is Sarmatian? Some say its Central Corded Ware and was already in central europe prior to Sarmatians(this is my view). There doesnt seem to be any aDNA for M458. I do notice some basal M458 is popping up in Adyghe, Karachay, and Nogai(who are turkic unless I am mistaken).

There is no proof about Sarmatian M458, just hypothesis.

[Dibran]

Interesting thing is that Eupedia mentions that some of highest R1a diversity overall is in south-eastern Europe, which I think sound suprising to many people.

Very interesting. Is this the case overall? or do other areas have more R1a diversity? Isn't the rule of thumb that regions of the most diversity are usually starting points? Maybe it spread with Sarmatians or Dacians around the Morava that were part of the ethnogenesis of the Slavs?

Without any aDNA though, I suppose its just a guessing game.

[Dibran]

There is no proof about Sarmatian M458, just hypothesis.

There is literally no aDNA for M458 to say what is or isn't hypothesis. And when you have basal M458 popping up in Adyghe Karachay and Nogai, I think that should not be ignored either. So much of the claims about the line is based purely on speculation due to modern distribution. If diversification of a line is anything to go by, Romania seems to have some high R1a diversification. Suggesting around the Morava as a point of spread. The steppe tribes were extremely fruitful and fucked like rabbits. I highly doubt they barely left a mark paternally. Now we have aDNA for Z280, so we can make some assumptions. Until aDNA is available for M458, then all talk is just speculation(some educated some not).

[Dibran]

Problem is that Z280 is by far most common type of R1a is all southern slavic countries (except Bulgaria), and we don't have any known Turkic connections.

I do notice too alot of R1a in South Slavs is mostly Z280. M458 seems more East Balkan, but with regards to the West Balkans its higher in Croats no?

[Dibran]

So you think that White Croats and Serbs "slavicized" Rethelites? Then from where they picked up this language, since I2-Din didn't speak IE haha.

I2 was so far long in Europe that I2 definitely participated in Indo European movements. Whether they originally descended from Mesolithic groups or not.

[Jana]

Very interesting. Is this the case overall? or do other areas have more R1a diversity? Isn't the rule of thumb that regions of the most diversity are usually starting points? Maybe it spread with Sarmatians or Dacians around the Morava that were part of the ethnogenesis of the Slavs?

Without any aDNA though, I suppose its just a guessing came.
Yes, might be just speculation. It doesn't make too much sense to me, I would expect more diversity in north-east of Europe and central Asia /Siberia. But south-east of Romania is already steppe zone, so who know...
Eupedia isn't academic site anyway.


I do notice too alot of R1a in South Slavs is mostly Z280. M458 seems more East Balkan, but with regards to the West Balkans its higher in Croats no?
Actually we are pred. Z280 (so called Carpathian-Dalmatian subclade) , there was one erraneous study with small smaple size that showed more M458, but several others refuted it.


I2 was so far long in Europe that I2 definitely participated in Indo European movements. Whether they originally descended from Mesolithic groups or not.
:thumb001:

[blogen]

What % of Hungarians have R1a? Because I've seen many conflicting figures.

Here are 488 random sample. (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project?iframe=yresults) This is an inappropriate statistics of course, because the sampling was not systematic from an area and totally subjective in space and time. Hovewer, 488 is much more than nothing.

The results: 118 persons, 24.1% R1a
- 4 persons, 0,8% R1a Z93
- 55 persons, 11,2% R1a Z280

So, almost half of the Hungarian R1a is potentially steppe related.

Other interesting results:
- 18 persons, 3,6% R1b M269 (proto-Aryan steppe R1b)
- 13 persons, 2,6% G2a (Caucasian subgrups)
- 10 persons, 2% Q
- 8 persons, 1,6% N (the non Balto-Slavic subgrups)
- 1 persons, 0,2% C

So at least 22% of the Y-DNA lineages are potentially conqueror Magyar origin types.

[Dibran]

Yes, might be just speculation. It doesn't make too much sense to me, I would expect more diversity in north-east of Europe and central Asia /Siberia. But south-east of Romania is already steppe zone, so who know...
Eupedia isn't academic site anyway.


Actually we are pred. Z280 (so called Carpathian-Dalmatian subclade) , there was one erraneous study with small smaple size that showed more M458, but several others refuted it.


:thumb001:

Good point. If the diversification is strongest in Romania for M458/Z280, then I would imagine some splintered Dacian clans, and or possibly Sarmatian groups like Roxolani could be responsible for the diversification around this area. As I understand, Dacians were around the Southern Baltics no? If so, Z280 is definitely possible, and maybe even M458.

People make it seem like Z280/M458 were walled up like the white walkers of game of thrones, and just started migrating in all directions in the middle ages. That literally makes no sense. If M458 for instance was already in Central Europe during Lusatians, then it definitely participated in both Slavic, and East Germanic tribes.

Even the trajectory of Bastarnae for instance, passed through Z280/M458 hotspots. So it escapes logic to assume some of it was not spreading with them. They were especially known to intermix with others.

Also What if Volga Bulgars spread M458? some branches of M458 typically seem more restricted to Bulgaria/Romania. Like YP263 under L1029 which is typically East Balkan(according to Michal).

I turned out to be L1029* basal and negative downstream. All my matches are 2000 plus years ago. I was suspected to possibly form my own cluster upstream YP263 but downstream L1029*. However, the clade is too unstable. I plan to test my father next to form and define the cluster between us. But it seems we are either basal L1029 or ancestral to YP263.

My close Y37 match won;t test further. He is Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia. So my fathers test should define a new subclade under L1029*. My closest STR match is the Beijing sample from China lolol. Only one match though. and under 100 SNP matches.

On 23andme, most my M417 paternal matches are Greek, Romanian, Albanian, and Bulgarian, and a couple Croatians. There is no telling what subclade they belong. I imagine being M417 and a paternal autsomal match is a hint that they could be M458.

Oh, I know M458 is less than Z280, but isn't Croatia the highest in M458 after East Balkans?

Dacians were still active in early AD around Romania, so the diversification may play a role. Especially with the oldest M417 popping up around Ukraine. Perhaps diversification happened around Romania. The Morava as I have heard.

Are there any scientifically published periodicals attesting to this? The lack of diversity in NE is odd, true. Especially all the aDNA in the area came up Z280 mostly. There is still no aDNA for M458. Unless I am missing something. Google search turns up nothing.

[Rethel]

Means his dna is of no use to find out more about conquering Hungarians genetics.

:picard2:

[Rethel]

There is literally no aDNA for M458

Why are you repeating this post after post?
It has no sense, as many will not understand
what you mean, or take it for auDNA (if you
did mot mean that, who knows).

[Dibran]

Why are you repeating this post after post?
It has no sense, as many will not understand
what you mean, or take it for auDNA (if you
did mot mean that, who knows).

If you bother reading you would see why. People keep saying as if its already been proven, where M458 came from. No aDNA has been discovered. Which means until it is, all else is speculation. Understand?

[Rethel]

I2 was so far long in Europe that I2 definitely participated in Indo European movements. Whether they originally descended from Mesolithic groups or not.

Every hg, which was under way did it, so, there is no point in it.

[Rethel]

If you bother reading you would see why. People keep saying as if its already been proven, where M458 came from. No aDNA has been discovered. Which means until it is, all else is speculation. Understand?

You mean ancient DNA?

[Dibran]

You mean ancient DNA?

Yea. Ancient DNA. I can't find any papers for M458. So, I assume there are no ancient DNA samples yet. I heard alot of Z280 was recently discovered in the Baltics. But no M458 among them.

[Rethel]

Yea. Ancient DNA. I can't find any papers for M458. So, I assume there are no ancient DNA samples yet. I heard alot of Z280 was recently discovered in the Baltics. But no M458 among them.

Then, yes, you are right. No claim has any sense.
It could be corded, it could be sarmatian, it could be both, or even none.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I think M458 in Karachay-Balkars is result of Rethelites-settling there. Don't forget that West Slavic tribes (such as Vyatichi) participated in East Slavic creation of Russia. They were mostly probably M458.

[Dibran]

Then, yes, you are right. No claim has a sense.
It could be corded, it could be sarmatian, it could be both, or even none.

True.

[Dibran]

I think M458 in Karachay-Balkars is result of Rethelites-settling there. Don't forget that West Slavic tribes (such as Vyatichi) participated in East Slavic creation of Russia. They were mostly probably M458.

Only Russias mass invasion occurred between 17-1800s, and Karachay-Balkars, Nogais, do not mix(very tribal). Their M458 is also alot different than that found in Russians. Their M458 is older/much more basal. And I think the Nogai speak turkic. It is also within Adyghe and Shapsug tribes within Circassians. The line had to have been absorbed much earlier than recently in their case. It is still most probably Balto-Slavic. But, we won't know until aDNA pops up. What if the Volga Bulgars and Avars spread some branched in the Balkans? Maybe it was Sarmatian and participated in the Slavic ethnogenesis. With L1029 YP515 and L260 descending from it and moving with Slavs. the diversification around Romania is a telling key. We just won't know until we have ancient samples. without it, no ones argument has any legs. Only educated speculation.

[Rethel]

I think M458 in Karachay-Balkars is result of Rethelites-settling there. Don't forget that West Slavic tribes (such as Vyatichi) participated in East Slavic creation of Russia. They were mostly probably M458.

But Rethelites pre-Scythian, Sarmatian whatever. It is doubtfull
if Russians would brought there exactly the basal clades, and
there is no known info about resent founder effect.

On the other hand IEs were there almost since ever, there was
a strong Alanian Kingdom, and Kimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians,
even some paraHindus did crossing, settling aso there to make the
possibilities more plenty. Also Goths could influenced that area and
it wouldnt be strage if they would spread it across Europe, no matter
they had it originally or did absorb underway.

We just do not know, and all what we can do is to speculate, which
can - and will obviously do - turn into rave, when one day, ancient
samples will emerged. BUT even then it can not to be clear, as the
ancient DNA do not has written what language spoke, and since the
IE commonwealth did broke, there can be no way to recreate all
wanderings and particular changing of subtribality by this clade and
it's subclades during so many millennias.

[Rethel]

It is still most probably Balto-Slavic.

Only two clades.
Rest I deeply doubt, as are spreaded across Europe.
Only types close to me alone, are too much spreded as for Slavic origin.
Rather it came with first IEs or with Sarmatians.
With Slavs could too, but it is hard to imagine, that single wanderings
or slave trade brought basal clades, but did not brought the main ones.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Only Russias mass invasion occurred between 17-1800s, and Karachay-Balkars, Nogais, do not mix(very tribal). Their M458 is also alot different than that found in Russians. Their M458 is older/much more basal. And I think the Nogai speak turkic. It is also within Adyghe and Shapsug tribes within Circassians. The line had to have been absorbed much earlier than recently in their case. It is still most probably Balto-Slavic. But, we won't know until aDNA pops up. What if the Volga Bulgars and Avars spread some branched in the Balkans? Maybe it was Sarmatian and participated in the Slavic ethnogenesis. With L1029 YP515 and L260 descending from it and moving with Slavs. the diversification around Romania is a telling key. We just won't know until we have ancient samples. without it, no ones argument has any legs. Only educated speculation.

Balts don't have it very common, i think.

[Stears]

Try to contain your shock, but it is because.... we are Turkic.

http://media.indiatimes.in/media/photogallery/2013/Aug/000_arp3615124_1376306505.jpg

Lunatic kurultáj (aka. Cuman-days) in Kunság (Cumania) minority area? How pathetic.

[Stears]

We share the same core words for culture and lifestyle, like some foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives. We had the same religion. As Hungarians traveled west, we picked up more words from Slavic and Germanic peoples. No surprise. Our founder's names are all Turkic. Founding dynasty is R1. You quote the source that humorously states the the largest portion of Hungarian words are "unknown".

You did the results. You know you ancestry. You know it is intellectually dishonest to say Turkic people are "pure Mongoloid" in any sense of the word. More and more DNA research is being performed that further shows the Eurasian origins of us, and our Eurasian culture pre-Christianity is already a well known fact and is not debated.

Embrace both your European history and your Eurasian roots.

"words for culture and lifestyle, like some foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives" these are some loanwords, but there were more loanwords ( foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives) from German and Latin languages before the language reforms. It doesn't make us German nor Latino.

Only the evil linguists and historians don't know about your fantasy. How sad.... And they globally conspired with their scholars from all around the world. Yes I know that such a conspiracy theories and fantasies exist among less educated proletarian people i Cumania like you and your ancestors. Do you really believe that all scholars conspired against your turanian tales?

[Dragan Ciganovic]

Lunatic kurultáj (aka. Cuman-days) in Kunság (Cumania) minority area? How pathetic.

By this same "logic", as TurulKarom, Hungarians are Buddhists from China!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pzvC7tKMHug/U5Nxk2LHOdI/AAAAAAAAfVA/N3-27z8vZas/s1600/bhuddist.jpeg

(Budhist center in Zalaszántó)

[Jana]

Turul Karom is very polite and respectful guy. I don't agree with insults toward him. That's why tumb down :)

[Stears]

(Double post by mistake)

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/11/f8/80/11f880c0903e62521d59dab7a31f2693--hungarian-heritage-fashion-history.jpg

And this is the best example: How illiterate you are.

Other problem: Hungarians were not equestrian people. Just because the elite warrior classes had equestrian army, the most Hungarians (the common people) did not know how to ride a horse in high and late medieval and early modern period until the 1880s - 1890s era. Horse riding did not belong to the common knowledge of average Hungarian commoners until the late 19th century.

[Rethel]

Turul Karom is very polite and respectful guy. I don't agree with insults toward him. That's why tumb down :)

He is IE, so... :)

[Rethel]

Balts don't have it very common, i think.

Lithuania: 224 985, Latvia: 91 845,

[Jana]

Good point. If the diversification is strongest in Romania for M458/Z280, then I would imagine some splintered Dacian clans, and or possibly Sarmatian groups like Roxolani could be responsible for the diversification around this area. As I understand, Dacians were around the Southern Baltics no? If so, Z280 is definitely possible, and maybe even M458.

People make it seem like Z280/M458 were walled up like the white walkers of game of thrones, and just started migrating in all directions in the middle ages. That literally makes no sense. If M458 for instance was already in Central Europe during Lusatians, then it definitely participated in both Slavic, and East Germanic tribes.

Even the trajectory of Bastarnae for instance, passed through Z280/M458 hotspots. So it escapes logic to assume some of it was not spreading with them. They were especially known to intermix with others.

Also What if Volga Bulgars spread M458? some branches of M458 typically seem more restricted to Bulgaria/Romania. Like YP263 under L1029 which is typically East Balkan(according to Michal).

I turned out to be L1029* basal and negative downstream. All my matches are 2000 plus years ago. I was suspected to possibly form my own cluster upstream YP263 but downstream L1029*. However, the clade is too unstable. I plan to test my father next to form and define the cluster between us. But it seems we are either basal L1029 or ancestral to YP263.

My close Y37 match won;t test further. He is Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia. So my fathers test should define a new subclade under L1029*. My closest STR match is the Beijing sample from China lolol. Only one match though. and under 100 SNP matches.

On 23andme, most my M417 paternal matches are Greek, Romanian, Albanian, and Bulgarian, and a couple Croatians. There is no telling what subclade they belong. I imagine being M417 and a paternal autsomal match is a hint that they could be M458.

Oh, I know M458 is less than Z280, but isn't Croatia the highest in M458 after East Balkans?

Dacians were still active in early AD around Romania, so the diversification may play a role. Especially with the oldest M417 popping up around Ukraine. Perhaps diversification happened around Romania. The Morava as I have heard.

Are there any scientifically published periodicals attesting to this? The lack of diversity in NE is odd, true. Especially all the aDNA in the area came up Z280 mostly. There is still no aDNA for M458. Unless I am missing something. Google search turns up nothing.

Very interesting reply. However I don't have answer to many of your questions. It is indeed strange how M458 didn't show up in ancient samples yet. And people always took it for granted it must be proto-Slavic (which I supect it is anyway, but it isn't proven yet)

We need to wait for more ancient studies :)

[Dragan Ciganovic]

Blogen, what is the reason of the Magyar way of life such similar as Turkic? How it happened? I mean early medieval culture.

Vlajo Vukovic, what is the reason of the Bosniak way of life such similar as Turkic? How it happened?

[Rethel]

Very interesting reply. However I don't have answer to many of your questions. It is indeed strange how M458 didn't show up in ancient samples yet. And people always took it for granted it must be proto-Slavic (which I supect it is anyway, but it isn't proven yet)

We need to wait for more ancient studies :)

2000 years ago it was probably a small family (among proto-Slavs)
and couple others spreaded across Europe. Maybe 100 people. Even
1000 or 10,000 wouldn't make difference in hardships of finding it.

[Jana]

He is IE, so... :)

From when, 3000 years ago ? Is that really relevant ? :)

[Dibran]

Very interesting reply. However I don't have answer to many of your questions. It is indeed strange how M458 didn't show up in ancient samples yet. And people always took it for granted it must be proto-Slavic (which I supect it is anyway, but it isn't proven yet)

We need to wait for more ancient studies :)

Yea, time will tell. I think(assuming the diversification is true) that it probably was disseminated around the Morava. Maybe thats why nothing is popping up elsewhere? Too early to tell. Can't wait to learn more.

I think if the oldest M417 sample is anything to go by, that it could have diversified around Ukraine and or Romania. Which would mean various clades that developed from this area would have been present in Sarmatians and or the fragmented Dacian Clan. Maybe even the Getae.

[Skjaldemjøden]

Arpad in Hebrew is a vampire (ערפד). :vampire:

[Dibran]

2000 it was probably a small family (among proto-Slavs) and couple
others spreaded across Europe. Maybe 100 people. Even 1000 or
10,000 wouldn't make difference in hardships of finding it.

Maybe M458 basal was provided by the Sarmatians, and then it could have been absorbed into and participated in Slavic ethnogenesis. Then later clades like L1029/YP515/L260 could have developed as a result from this ethnogenesis, explaining why there is alot of M458 in Central Europe and almost no aDNA thus far from the area is M458.

[Rethel]

From when, 3000 years ago ? Is that really relevant ? :)

Yes.
Time is relative.

Otherwise, you are right, that play with letters has no sense. I agree.

[Stears]

Do you know who were the true equestrian people of Europe? Those who had the most horses per capita. You won't believe it: England , the Netherlands and northern Italy, The knowledge of horse riding was wide spread and they had the most horses per capita.

[Turul Karom]

"words for culture and lifestyle, like some foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives" these are some loanwords, but there were more loanwords ( foods, family, personal identifiers and basic adjectives) from German and Latin languages before the language reforms. It doesn't make us German nor Latino.

You do not understand my point. These were words that found the core of our lifestyle, and who we were before the unity of the Magyar tribes. As we have been in Europe for so long, of course we would have more Latin, Germanic, etc words in our vocabulary. Look at all the Arabic words in the Anatolian Turkish vocabulary. Are they Arabic now? No, because these words came into being after they have been settled and converted to Islam and placed under an Arabic cultural sway.


Only the evil linguists and historians don't know about your fantasy. How sad.... And they globally conspired with their scholars from all around the world. Yes I know that such a conspiracy theories and fantasies exist among less educated proletarian people i Cumania like you and your ancestors. Do you really believe that all scholars conspired against your turanian tales?

lolol, this is maybe the third or fourth time you bring this up again. Must you learn the perspective again? Pretending we did not talk about this is not very honest, friend...

This is a duplicate question from the “Turanid Race” thread. My reply: No, I have never said that all Hungarian and foreign linguists are liars. I do not believe in a coordinated global conspiracy as you claim I do. It seems as though you are using hyperbole to make my statements more outrageous than what I am actually saying. It also seems like you do not believe that there are political interests at play in these discussions (though obviously on any side, there will be politics involved). It is clear that the people have changed as have the powers, which is why you are attempting to slander by saying that Hungarian Turanists are afraid of “dead Hapsburg monarchs”.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218598-Ugrofinian-lingua-franca/page7&highlight=lingua+franca

Oh well. The tragic irony is that it is you and the shrinking group around which you that rely on seeing Turkic oriented Hungarian existence as "conspiratorial". Without the neo-Cuman-Turkic-conspiracy ghost for you to chase, you couldn't easily dismiss the science. But alas, as we are free time and again, we discover the truth about ourselves. With modern technology, this will only expedite the process of Turkic awareness in the population and make DNA, linguistic, and archaeological research easier. To quote from the same thread once more:

You accuse me (and all Turanists at large) of requiring the notion of an anti-Hungarian conspiracy in order to even exist. In reality, it is you and your ilk that need to make it look like we are all kooky conspiracy theorists in order for your weak arguments to exist. To this end, you wish to rally in cloistered places, be it academia or not does not matter, and shriek like banshees at the sunlight that sterilizes.

Don't fear who you are.


Lunatic kurultáj (aka. Cuman-days) in Kunság (Cumania) minority area? How pathetic.

It grows larger every year. The folk art, the people, the Turkic international brotherhood... and this year, the government is supporting it with a large financial donation. If 250,000+ people each year is "pathetic", then I think you should re-evaluate your idea of cultural events. Maybe start your own event for "true" Hungarians and promote "real" Magyar culture? Oh wait, that would mean defining your terms, and as science progresses in favor of our Turkic past, that would only ostracize you...

Is this why you rage at the darkness rather than create the light? I suppose it is easier after all...

Don't feel too alone though. Your mantle is always waiting for you to take it up onto your shoulders once more. It was with you from birth and will be with you in your bones long after death.


By this same "logic", as TurulKarom, Hungarians are Buddhists from China!

Not my trail of logic. Not sure how you got that impression.



Other problem: Hungarians were not equestrian people.

The pinnacle of a troll post. Of course not every person owned a warhorse, but many people were skilled in horsemanship. It is well established. A very high % of Magyars in the past were skilled in horsemanship in relation to the non-nomadic West. The fact you would make the claim "Hungarians were not equestrian people" would make almost any modern scholar laugh. I think you're starting to make desperate claims to distance yourself from our Turkic-oriented past.

[blogen]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

[Turul Karom]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

....this study is such gold, haha. Hopefully it helps to bring continuing awareness of our origins.

"Thus, most of the population in the Carpathian Basin originated from the Hun-Turkic cultural community of the Eurasian Steppe and was accompanied by Slavonic and German-speaking groups."

[Peterski]

I edited the Opening Post, adding some links to other studies with ancient Hungarian DNA. Two other studies found N1c, I2a and R1b Y-DNA haplogroups in conquest-era Early Medieval Magyars.

It is obvious, that they were a genetic mish-mash, united by common identity and culture.

Two Early Medieval Magyars with N1c:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

Early Medieval Magyars with I2a and R1b:

http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/10604/1/Vegleges_cikk_u.pdf

Gyöngyvér Tömöry analyzed 27 Early Medieval Magyar samples:

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

Check also Table 8. on p. 137 of Anna Szécsény-Nagy's dissertation.

Modern Szeklers have a non-negligible frequency of N1c - 6.52%.

[Turul Karom]

I edited the Opening Post, adding some links to other studies with ancient Hungarian DNA. Two other studies found N1c, I2a and R1b Y-DNA haplogroups in conquest-era Early Medieval Magyars.

It is obvious, that they were a genetic mish-mash, united by common identity and culture.

Two Early Medieval Magyars with N1c:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

Early Medieval Magyars with I2a and R1b:

http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/10604/1/Vegleges_cikk_u.pdf

Gyöngyvér Tömöry analyzed 27 Early Medieval Magyar samples:

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

Check also Table 8. on p. 137 of Anna Szécsény-Nagy's dissertation.

Modern Szeklers have a non-negligible frequency of N1c - 6.52%.

Here are two samples from graves of known early Hungarian conquerors that were both R1b-U106.

Source is second link in supplementary material:

Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA haplotypes and Y-chromosome haplogroups in a small cemetery

https://link.springer.com/article/10...438-016-1267-z

438_2016_1267_MOESM2_ESM.xlsx (17 kb)
Online Resource 2 (ESM_2): Results of Y-chromosome SNP typing using the GenoY25 assay (XLSX 16 kb)

https://i.imgur.com/bHImJzd.png

[Peterski]

See also: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

Magyars with R1b1b1a are from Karos-Eperjesszög, dated to ca. 900-950 AD.

One of them has Mongoloid mtDNA haplogroup B4d1. The other one has H6a1b.

[Peterski]

two samples from graves of known early Hungarian conquerors that were both R1b-U106.

Yes, that is claimed to be Germanic U106. The oldest samples are from Germanic areas:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

http://i.imgur.com/pg2bEQX.png

RISE98 is not much younger than estimated age of U106 as a whole (according to YFull):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

^^^
Probably assimilated by Magyars in Ukraine, where East Germanic tribes were present.

[Peterski]

But you know what ??? That was probably not U106.

Because U106 = R1b1a1a2a1a1 (and not R1b1b1a).

Source: https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

So it seems that the authors made a mistake. It was R1b, but not U106.

============

But it depends, because these designations like a1b1b1a... change over time.

Only names of SNPs don't change. Did they actually test them for U106 SNP?

[Turul Karom]

Yes, that is claimed to be Germanic U106. The oldest samples are from Germanic areas:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

http://i.imgur.com/pg2bEQX.png

RISE98 is not much younger than estimated age of U106 as a whole (according to YFull):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

^^^
Probably assimilated by Magyars in Ukraine, where East Germanic tribes were present.

Perhaps, but not quite... this data is newer and has more research behind it:

Карта распространения гаплогруппы R1b в целом (R-L10, рис. 2.8.) ярко показывает, что это основной компонент, составляющий более половины Y-хромосомного генофонда Западной Европы. Лишь население южной части Аппенинского полуострова несет сниженные частоты этой гаплогруппы, поскольку у них преобладают средиземноморские гаплогруппы, да еще Скандинавия по географии гаплогрупп относится не к Западной Европе, а формирует самостоятельный северный домен, в котором преобладает иная гаплогруппа — I1.

Гаплогруппа R1b даже в большей степени свойственна Западной Европе, чем R1a свойственна Восточной, поскольку R1b во многих популяциях (Британские острова, баски и ряд других популяций Пиренейского полуострова) составляет даже не половину, а более двух третей генофонда. В целом, тренд гаплогруппы R1b — максимальные частоты у басков и постепенное снижение частоты к востоку от Пиренейского полуострова — очень напоминает географию классического маркера Rh-d (резус-фактор). Всплеск частоты на востоке Европы отражает повышенную частоту R1b у некоторых популяций башкир, известную из работы [Лобов, 2009]. Впрочем, нашим коллективом сейчас завершается подробное исследование разнообразия Y-хромосомы в популяциях башкир (более 1000 образцов). В этом исследовании выявлено, что частота R1b велика только в немногих родовых группах, тогда как для большинства родовых групп башкир характерны другие гаплогруппы, а частоты R1b у них невелики. Поэтому всплеск R1b на востоке Европы отражает не общеевропейскую закономерность, а лишь локальные закономерности происхождения отдельных родовых групп степных популяций Евразии.

"Haplogroup R1b is even more characteristic of Western Europe than R1a is characteristic of Eastern Europe, since R1b in many populations (British Isles, Basques and a number of other populations of the Iberian Peninsula) is not even half, but more than two thirds of the gene pool. In general, the trend of haplogroup R1b - the maximum frequencies in the Basques and the gradual decrease in frequency to the east of the Iberian Peninsula - is very similar to the geography of the classic marker Rh-d (Rh factor). The frequency surge in eastern Europe reflects an increased frequency of R1b in some Bashkir populations, known from [Lobov, 2009]. However, our team is now completing a detailed study of the diversity of the Y-chromosome in Bashkir populations (more than 1000 samples). In this study, it was found that the frequency of R1b is high only in a few generic groups, whereas for most generic Bashkir groups, other haplogroups are characteristic, and the R1b frequencies are low. Therefore, the outburst of R1b in the east of Europe reflects not a common European pattern, but only local regularities of the origin of individual generic groups of steppe populations of Eurasia."

Хотя R1b достигает высоких частот в основном в Западной Европе, карта (рис. 2.8.) показывает, что она (как и R1a) распространена повсеместно, занимая весь картографированный ареал и уходя далеко за его пределы по Евразии. Считается, что R1b имеет переднеазиатское происхождение, и разные ее ветви распространились по различным уголкам Старого Света, но особенно «повезло» лишь той ветви, которая распространилась в Европе и достигла в ней столь значительных частот.

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.8-500x494.jpg

На рисунке показаны только ветви, которые подробно рассматриваются с помощью геногеографических карт; структура схемы соответствует полному дереву гаплогруппы R1b-L10 по версии ISOGG на октябрь 2015 г.

"The figure shows only the branches, which are examined in detail with the help of the genogeographic maps; the structure of the scheme corresponds to the full tree of haplogroup R1b-L10 according to ISOGG version for October 2015."

Source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

------------------------------------

Regardless, I am sure there were plenty of assimilations along the way. It is to be expected with the nomadic way of life, and can be seen reflected in all Turkic peoples settled today.

[Peterski]

What is R1b-L10 ??? It is not the same as R1b-U106.

[Peterski]

First of all let's remember that we have two branches of R1b-M269 - Eastern and Western. And the most common Bashkir branch is a branch that split even before the emergence of M269:

https://i.imgur.com/IJiivt9.png

^^^ R1b-V88 is African (Chadic) branch, but it was also found in prehistoric Iberia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Sub-Saharan_Africa

[Peterski]

More about R1b-V88 can be found here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716304487

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5

IMO it came to Africa from Iberia or Italy.

[Nanushka]

Bosniaks get their name from the Bosna River. The "-ak" in Bosniak is just a Slavic suffix, similar to the "-ak" in Polak. The Bosna River's name is believed to be of Illyrian etymology.

Where does the name Bosna or Bosnia come from then?

We all know that Bosnians stayed under the rule and influence of Hungarians for a long time (before Ottomans) and they gave them the name Besenyo (Pecheneg) which in time turned into Bosniya. So Pecheneks=Badjanaks became Bosnyaks eventually. Latins also called them Bissenus

You can check this link as well if you are interested http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/70_Dateline/besenyo_dateline_En.htm

[Bosniensis]

Where does the name Bosna or Bosnia come from then?

We all know that Bosnians stayed under the rule and influence of Hungarians for a long time (before Ottomans) and they gave them the name Besenyo which in time turned into Bosniya. So Pecheneks=Badjanaks became Bosnyaks eventually. Latins also called them Bissenus

You can check this link as well if you are interested http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/70_Dateline/besenyo_dateline_En.htm

Oh please don't be ridiculous.

Bosniaks never existed, it's just religious ethnicity to divide muslim from orthodoxes nothing else.

[Nanushka]

Bosniaks never existed, it's just religious ethnicity to divide muslim from orthodoxes nothing else.

You are really confused, I am writing the historical facts, not making up. You even dont need to check out the link, this is written everywhere,
Pecheneg=Besenyo=Bosniya. You can research if you dont believe in me

How do you claim that your ethnicity didnt exist?

[Bosniensis]

You are really confused, I am writing the historical facts, not making up. You even dont need to check out the link, this is written everywhere,
Pecheneg=Besenyo=Bosniya. You can research if you dont believe in me

How do you claim that your ethnicity didnt exist?

Bosniaks = Islamized Serbs, Macedonians, Greeks, Italians, Anatolians, Bulgarians,

Muslims who did not move to Turkey stayed in Bosnia, while Orthodoxed expelled them from their original states.

For example Serbia removed all muslims from Serbia and they fled to Bosnia etc...

[Turul Karom]

What is R1b-L10 ??? It is not the same as R1b-U106.

See U106 in the east here as well

https://i.imgur.com/A4qUmjL.gif

[Nanushka]

Bosniaks = Islamized Serbs, Macedonians, Greeks, Italians, Anatolians, Bulgarians,

Pity..

Ok you can believe whatever you want Idc that much
Bye

[Jana]

Where does the name Bosna or Bosnia come from then?

We all know that Bosnians stayed under the rule and influence of Hungarians for a long time (before Ottomans) and they gave them the name Besenyo (Pecheneg) which in time turned into Bosniya. So Pecheneks=Badjanaks became Bosnyaks eventually. Latins also called them Bissenus

You can check this link as well if you are interested http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/70_Dateline/besenyo_dateline_En.htm

There was practicaly no Hungarian rule or impact in Bosnia, Bosnia was defacto indipendent and being remote and mountanious it is very much shielded from outsiders.

Bosniaks have nothing to do with Turks, they are genetically almost indistinguishable from Croats, followed by Serbs. Just to make it clear.

It isn't related to topic anyway.

[Jana]

I edited the Opening Post, adding some links to other studies with ancient Hungarian DNA. Two other studies found N1c, I2a and R1b Y-DNA haplogroups in conquest-era Early Medieval Magyars.

It is obvious, that they were a genetic mish-mash, united by common identity and culture.

Two Early Medieval Magyars with N1c:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/abstract

Early Medieval Magyars with I2a and R1b:

http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/10604/1/Vegleges_cikk_u.pdf

Gyöngyvér Tömöry analyzed 27 Early Medieval Magyar samples:

http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/3/Tömöry_tézisek-angol.pdf

Check also Table 8. on p. 137 of Anna Szécsény-Nagy's dissertation.

Modern Szeklers have a non-negligible frequency of N1c - 6.52%.

Their I2a was of dinaric variety, so it's obvious it was assimilated along the way. Nothing strange for the steppe peoples, they were open to intermarry and assimilate other tribes since dawn of time...

:)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

There was practicaly no Hungarian rule or impact in Bosnia, Bosnia was defacto indipendent and being remote and mountanious it is very much shielded from outsiders.

Bosniaks have nothing to do with Turks, they are genetically almost indistinguishable from Croats, followed by Serbs. Just to make it clear.

It isn't related to topic anyway.

She really believs in those bullshits, so let her. Turks always want to people make fun of them.

[Peterski]

Their I2a was of dinaric variety, so it's obvious it was assimilated along the way. Nothing strange for the steppe peoples, they were open to intermarry and assimilate other tribes since dawn of time...

:)

But Magyars were originally not steppe people but forest zone people - like all other Finno-Ugric groups. They later moved to the steppe. So maybe their I2a-Din came from the forest zone of Russia, Belarus and Northern Ukraine, just like Slavic I2a-Din most probably did.

Of course in the steppe Magyars interacted with Turkic and Iranic groups, as shown by loanwords in Hungarian language.

[blogen]

But Magyars were originally not steppe people but forest zone people - like all other Finno-Ugric groups. They later moved to the steppe. So maybe their I2a-Din came from the forest zone of Russia, Belarus and Northern Ukraine, just like Slavic I2a-Din most probably did.

Of course in the steppe Magyars interacted with Turkic and Iranic groups, as shown by loanwords in Hungarian language.


The Magyars were steppe peoples everytime.

proto-Magyars of cherkaskul culture: open steppe
ancient magyars of Sargat culture: forest steppe
early medieval magyars of Kusnarenkovo culture: forest steppe
medieval Magyars of Subbotci culture: open steppe

[Peterski]

The Magyars were steppe peoples everytime.

proto-Magyars of cherkaskul culture: open steppe
ancient magyars of Sargat culture: forest steppe
early medieval magyars of Kusnarenkovo culture: forest steppe
medieval Magyars of Subbotci culture: open steppe

Adrienne Kormendy in her 2014 article for Polish readers wrote that Magyars originated in non-steppe areas and later migrated south to the steppe.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Pity..

Ok you can believe whatever you want Idc that much
Bye

Everybody has Turkic origin, right? Maybe you will be satisfied then.

[Jana]

Adrienne Kormendy in her 2014 article for Polish readers wrote that Magyars originated in non-steppe areas and later migrated south to the steppe.

Yeah, I also read the same in book about Hungarian history written by Hungarian member of Academy. It states proto-Magyars originated in forest of Urals/western Siberia where they were finshemen and hunters, and moved to steppe later, where they fist interacted with Iranic groups in fact, and lastly with Turks.

[Jana]

From same book (translated to English) Stears already posted it in another thread.

Search for the oldest urheimat of the people who are ancestors of the Hungarians leads us on the border of Europe and Asia, so-called Uralic homeland. Based on the linguistic opinion, area of western Siberia and northern part of the Ural mountains. However, many archeologists believe that the real and original homeland of the Uralic people existed in Europe, streaching from the shores of Baltic sea to the Urals.
Uralic people spoke their common tongue until 4000 BC, when they started to split to smaller ethno-cultural and linguistic communities. As we can see on the rock paintings from the Urals, that time they were still paleolithic hunters and gatherers. Hungarian words for hunting and fishing belong to the oldest substrate of Uralic languages.

Around 3000 BC, Uralic languages split to two main branches: Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic. At that time, despite they were still hunters and gatherers, Finno-Ugric peoples (and the ancestors of Hungarians among them) were already using neolithic tools. Most important supstrate in modern Hungarian language is Finno-Ugric beyond any doubt: it contains only 1000 written words, but 60% (in written documents up to 80% percent) of complex words which are of Finno-Ugric origin. They describe family relations, seasons of the year and natural phenomenons (the sky, the snow, the clouds) as well as basic nouns (living, drinking, eating, standing, going, giving etc.)

Hungarian tribes were well prepared for transition to the nomadic way of life when they found themself in the steppe around 2000 BC. It was also time when the Ugric community split. To escape drought caused by high temperatures, Voguls and Ostyaks returned to forests up north and to the hunter gatherer lifestyle. At the same time proto-Hungarians remained in the steppe, adopting to new evironment. Finno-Ugric connection was now ended, but the linguistic link survived as well as certain elements of the comparative belief system-which is, considering the circumstances, quite miraculous.

Comparative ethnography has found several traditions among village communities inside of the Carpathian Basin which are identical or unusualy similar to the traditions we find among Finno-Ugric peoples: idea about the ''tree that reaches to heavens'' (which connects earthly world and the undergound with heavenly realm), the concept of ''double soul'' or the specific nature of shamanism.

Almost everything which will be spoken about the next millenium and history of Hungarian ancestors is in realm of guessing, and not confirmed facts.

After transition to nomadic way of life, perhaps of the area between Ural river and Aral sea, during first millenium BC, Hungarians were under strong influence of the neighbouring Iranic tribes, Schytians and Sarmatians. To them they probably owe use of iron, and the fact that Hungarian word for sword is of Iranic origin, is symbolic witness for nomadic warlike spirit. However, we cannot estimate the exact time when the Hungarian tribes have left south siberian vast lands and moved to their new European homeland, east from the big curve of the Volga river. This area, known as Baskiria, and the traveling monks from 13th century, like the Hungarian dominican Julian, called it Magna Hungaria.
Perhaps around 1000 BC, Hungarians wandered there togheder with Iranic tribes, but this movement could also happen between 350-400 AD, as a result of great chaos caused by Huns, or even later, around 550 AD, as result of the migrations of the Turkic tribes.

Even after that many well established facts need to be taken with reserve. There is no doubt that the dominant folk and culture of the steppe during these centuries was Turkic, and non-Turkic peoples like the Alans or the Magyars came under their strong influence (which was caused by long co-existance and mutual contacts). Economic and cultural changes which happened at that time can be proved by around 300 words of Turkic origin that made it to Hungarian vocabulary. Even the political institutions, like the dual administration, or spliting of power by spiritual and military leaders, if not exclusively Turkic, are typical for them. Organisation of tribes to the military units is also Turkic (Bulgar) influence that Hungarians received, just like the use of armor and stirrup.

This is the result of the several centuries of co-existance in steppe of the Hungarians and Turks.

[Marmara]

Bosniaks = Islamized Serbs, Macedonians, Greeks, Italians, Anatolians, Bulgarians,


:crazy: You really are ridicilous, and most Turks of Bosnia left for Turkey already. Remaining ones still speak Turkish. There is no Bosniak with assimilated Turkish background.

[Jana]

:crazy: You really are ridicilous, and most Turks of Bosnia left for Turkey already. Remaining ones still speak Turkish. There is no Bosniak with assimilated Turkish background.

There are no Bosniaks with Italian, Greek or Macedonian ancestry either. That guy isn't ancestraly Bosniak, he cluster with Romanians and he is just some muslim whose ancestors moved in Bosnia, but they don't originate from there.

[Marmara]

There are no Bosniaks with Italian, Greek or Macedonian ancestry either. That guy isn't acestrally Bosniak, he cluster with Romanians and he is just some muslim whose ancestrs moved in Bosnia, but they don't originate from there.

It all makes sense now.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

There are no Bosniaks with Italian, Greek or Macedonian ancestry either. That guy isn't ancestraly Bosniak, he cluster with Romanians and he is just some muslim whose ancestors moved in Bosnia, but they don't originate from there.

But most of modern-Bosnians doesn't originate from Bosnia too. :D
People were moved by Turks in Bosnia, and out of Bosnia. That's how Bosniensis Vlach ancestors came here, same as many others.

[Jana]

But most of modern-Bosnians doesn't originate from Bosnia too. :D
People were moved by Turks in Bosnia, and out of Bosnia. That's how Bosniensis Vlach ancestors came here, same as many others.

Sure, for example muslim Slavonians have been expelled to Bosnia, as were muslims from Serbia. But that is usual. These people have similar ancestry.
He claimed to be mixed with Albanians and Gorani (muslim slavs from Kosovo), wtf ? I have never heard for any Bosnian to have such ancestry.

And genetically he don't cluster with Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats or Bosnian Serbs. He is an outsider (in as sense he is non typical) that spread lunacy in here.

But we should stay on topic, and that is Arpads! I won't offtopic any longer, it disrespectuful towards the thread :)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Sure, for example muslim Slavonians have been expelled to Bosnia, as were muslims from Serbia. But that is usual. These people have similar ancestry.
He claimed to be mixed with Albanians and Gorani (muslim slavs from Kosovo), wtf ? I have never heard for any Bosnian to have such ancestry.

And genetically he don't cluster with Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats or Bosnian Serbs. He is an outsider (in as sense he is non typical) that spread lunacy in here.

But we should stay on topic, and that is Arpads! I won't offtopic any longer, it disrespectuful towards the thread :)

A lot of modern Bosniaks have actually roots in Montenegro somewhere on the border with Herzegowina, like myself mostly probably. If i turned out on predictions as I2a-Din, there would no be doubts about my Montenegrin paternal origin.

But yes. Arapads are the thread.

[Nanushka]

Everybody has Turkic origin, right? Maybe you will be satisfied then.

I am an Avar and Turkic but I have no intention of making everybody Turkic, its a privilege. I am always after the truth

I try to submit sources while you only talk and talk. So give me your own source about the etymology of 'Bosnia' pls (oh its off-topic right? you can pm me if you wish)

or else you can check these out http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/70_Dateline/besenyo_dateline_En.htm

even your lovely wiki talks about the Hungarian influence on Bosnia for some time ''..After Croatia entered personal union with Hungarian kingdom in 1102, most of Bosnia became vassal to Hungary as well''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_in_the_Middle_Ages

Honestly, so much about the off-topic =)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I am an Avar and Turkic but I have no intention of making everybody Turkic, its a privilege. I am always after the truth

I try to submit sources while you only talk and talk. So give me your own source about the etymology of 'Bosnia' pls (oh its off-topic right? you can pm me if you wish)

or else you can check these out http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/70_Dateline/besenyo_dateline_En.htm

even your lovely wiki talks about the Hungarian influence on Bosnia for some time ''..After Croatia entered personal union with Hungarian kingdom in 1102, most of Bosnia became vassal to Hungary as well''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_in_the_Middle_Ages

Honestly, so much about the off-topic =)

Word "Bosnia" originate or from Illyrians, or from Avars. But the present-day population of Bosnia have nothing to do with Turks. Also, Bosnian rulers used Avar titles as "ban" but they weren't of Avar origin. The reason is that Croats took it from Avars after Croats defeated them under the voivode Zvonimir lead them in Balkans.

[Dunai]

Adrienne Kormendy in her 2014 article for Polish readers wrote that Magyars originated in non-steppe areas and later migrated south to the steppe.

This is true to a certain degree. I say this because it depends what we consider to be Hungarian before they moved into the Carpathian Basin. Because in my opinion we cannot speak of Hungarians thousands of years ago. The Proto-Hungarian language originated among people living between the Ural Mountains and Western Siberia, thus a forest region, living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, however through some unexplainable way they gave this language to the much more warrior-like steppe nomads coming from Central Asia. In my opinion when this symbiosis happened, only then we can speak of the birth of Old Hungarians, the same ones who moved into the Carpathian Basin. For example Old Hungarians based on the newest genetic research have barely got any relatedness to other Uralic people, but seem to be a mix of Germanic North European and Central Asian people. This is indeed a very mysterious mixture, which cannot be explained too easily, but you cannot dismiss facts. This is also why so many Hungarian Turanists claim so much to Central Asian origins, and look at other Turkic people as long lost brethren. They base their ideas on who Old Hungarians actually were, as culturally and genetically it seems that they didn't had too many things in common with other Uralic people. But the language it is indeed Uralic, therefore this is why so many Hungarian historians have so much headache to give a coherent explanation what was the real origins and evolution of the people who became to be known as Magyars.

[blogen]

Yeah, I also read the same in book about Hungarian history written by Hungarian member of Academy. It states proto-Magyars originated in forest of Urals/western Siberia where they were finshemen and hunters, and moved to steppe later, where they fist interacted with Iranic groups in fact, and lastly with Turks.

Every Hungarian and Russian author write about the steppe. Fodor, Türk, Veres, etc. Even the Ugrics liven on the steppe since the disintegration of the Finno-ugric unity!

[Jana]

Every Hungarian and Russian author write about the steppe. Fodor, Türk, Veres, etc. Even the Ugrics liven on the steppe since the disintegration of the Finno-ugric unity!

But you stated yourself Hungarian origins western Siberia...how is that steppe ?
Do you mean they lived in southern parts of western Siberia, perhaps ?

[blogen]

But you stated yourself Hungarian origins western Siberia...how is that steppe ?
Do you mean they lived in southern parts of western Siberia, perhaps ?

Yes, of course. Even the Baraba steppe is Western Siberia!

[Proto-Shaman]

Arpads claimed to be Scythians. Madziars were called Scythians and Turks. Turks are partialy Scythian, and organized by Iranians.

partly organized by Iranians, yep

'The explanation of the Scythian words by the Iranian language is often full of
contradictions and is greatly exaggerated. However it is assumed that
there is an Altaic upper class, which gave orders to the Greek and
Iranian artists [...]'

(Karl Bouda, Contributions to the Caucasian and Siberian Linguistics, Volume 24, Kraus Reprint, 1966, p. 66)

"Thus Francis V. Schwarz is not succeeded in constructing a prehistoric
Aryan horseman nomadism, and the Turko-Tatar horseman nomadism of
Turkestan is probably as old as the nomadic use of the salt steppes itself."

(Peisker Johann, The older ties of the Slavs to Turko-Tatars and Germanic peoples and their socio-historical importance, W. Kohlhammer, 1905, p. 22)


Maybe even name 'turk/turan' is of scythian provenace.

yep

P.I.Karalkin also came to a conclusion that The Royal Scythians were the ancestors of the Turkic speaking peoples [Karalkin P.I., 1978, 39-40].


Btw, Magyar is also IE name, so nothing strange is this R1a.

Royal Magy (https://magyarmegmaradasert.hu/in-english/our-beliefs/1669-ancient-people-of-the-royal-magi-the-magyars) of pre-Iran (non-IE Sumerian > Turkic >armagan (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1791&root=config)< 'gift', >arbag (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1731&root=config)< 'magic', >bögü (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1048&root=config)< 'wizard, spell') + er (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2falt%2fturcet&text_number=1847&root=config) 'man, tribesman' (hence the word ARPAD (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d#Hungarian) and Turkic >arpa (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/arpa#Etymology_6)< 'barley', ancient Turkic loan in Iranian, because barley is the gift given by the "magicians" :))

Scytho-Turkic invasion of India is IE, yep

https://i.imgur.com/XogqjH2.jpg

[Stears]

You do not understand my point. These were words that found the core of our lifestyle, and who we were before the unity of the Magyar tribes. As we have been in Europe for so long, of course we would have more Latin, Germanic, etc words in our vocabulary. Look at all the Arabic words in the Anatolian Turkish vocabulary. Are they Arabic now? No, because these words came into being after they have been settled and converted to Islam and placed under an Arabic cultural sway.

"the core of our lifestyle" They were not so relevant dear wishful thinker neo-cuman.




lolol, this is maybe the third or fourth time you bring this up again. Must you learn the perspective again? Pretending we did not talk about this is not very honest, friend...

This is a duplicate question from the “Turanid Race” thread. My reply: No, I have never said that all Hungarian and foreign linguists are liars. I do not believe in a coordinated global conspiracy as you claim I do. It seems as though you are using hyperbole to make my statements more outrageous than what I am actually saying. It also seems like you do not believe that there are political interests at play in these discussions (though obviously on any side, there will be politics involved). It is clear that the people have changed as have the powers, which is why you are attempting to slander by saying that Hungarian Turanists are afraid of “dead Hapsburg monarchs”.


You must believe in conspiracy theories, because it is the basic core and the only survival tactics of all kind pseudo science. You must explain somehow (for yourself or for other people) that why historians linguists did not support your politically motivated theories. "Solution A" The scholars are stupid. Nobody will believe it, it simply doesn't work. "Solution B": The scholars are evil and conspired against "THE TRUTH", it works much better for poorly educated classes (proletarians), who have a traditional and general tendency of mistrust against the intellectuals and against the higher educated classes. The most 4 common and most popular conspiracy theories among Turanian screwballs: 1. The Habsburg conspiracy, 2. The conspiracy of the linguists and historians of the MTA (Hungarian Academy of Sciences) 3. the communist conspiracy (despite that Soviet Union and Communism collapsed long time ago.) 4. The Jews conspired against Turanism. (Despite the fact, that Jewish orientalist played the key role in Hungarian Turanism)




Oh well. The tragic irony is that it is you and the shrinking group around which you that rely on seeing Turkic oriented Hungarian existence as "conspiratorial". Without the neo-Cuman-Turkic-conspiracy ghost for you to chase, you couldn't easily dismiss the science. But alas, as we are free time and again, we discover the truth about ourselves. With modern technology, this will only expedite the process of Turkic awareness in the population and make DNA, linguistic, and archaeological research easier. To quote from the same thread once more:


There are no neo-Cuman conspiracy, there is only ignorance, as I said many times. Turanists did not conspire against anything, because they create and feed conspiracy theories about other groups. Conspiring against something or somebody is not equal to believe in conspiracy theories.


Neo Cumans and neo-cuman identity exist in Cumania Kunság region, despite the real cumans were exterminated during the long Turkish war. Why do you try to deny it? Of course it is natural in this subculture, that the fake "turkic ancestry" became very strong, The newcomer mixature migrants (from all around the Carpathian basin and beyond that) claimed the ancient right of the Cuman Reserve Area for economic and political interests. Their late descendants even believed the lies whioch were created for political economic purposes. The neo-cuman fake identity is not a conspiracy, but the simple result of ignorance in local history. Weird and strange things can happen in a subculture, the turkic and central asian terms became positive meaning, despite that turkic central asian are pejorative in the eyes of average Hungarian population (just like the Gypsy).



You accuse me (and all Turanists at large) of requiring the notion of an anti-Hungarian conspiracy in order to even exist.
Again this fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Belief systems which were raised from ignorance in history and linguistics are not conspiracies.

However you can see on all internationalEnglish language forums video portals, that anti-Hungarian Serbians Romanians Slovaks always support the turanist lunatic believers. Because they know its magic to discredit Hungarians in Europe (Like in the era of Trianon, when Benes and the little-Entente used it successfully against Hungarians.



In reality, it is you and your ilk that need to make it look like we are all kooky conspiracy theorists in order for your weak arguments to exist. To this end, you wish to rally in cloistered places, be it academia or not does not matter, and shriek like banshees at the sunlight that sterilizes.

Don't fear who you are.


I fear only from the human stupidity and ignorance, which creates conspiracy theories and try to falsify history culture linguistics to satisfy their wishful thinking.



It grows larger every year. The folk art, the people, the Turkic international brotherhood... and this year, the government is supporting it with a large financial donation. If 250,000+ people each year is "pathetic", then I think you should re-evaluate your idea of cultural events. Maybe start your own event for "true" Hungarians and promote "real" Magyar culture? Oh wait, that would mean defining your terms, and as science progresses in favor of our Turkic past, that would only ostracize you...


"It grows larger every year"
It is not a reasoning, but a fallacy again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

And how much people have university degree in the cumanian turan days? 1%? 0.5%? :)))) Typical.


"The folk art, the people, the Turkic international brotherhood... "
Which folk arts? Do you know that European commoners had no folk costumes and special embroidery Patterns before the 16th century?
This international turkic brotherhood of Gábor Vona reminds me the Jobbik's version of internationalism. Turanism: They way from proletarian internationalism to turkic internationalism.
Ironically, it was said by a man from Cumania, where the traditional material culture and way of life were always very very different (eastern European) from Central European Hungarian standard culture. The language was the only weak link with other Hungarians. http://tet.rkk.hu/index.php/TeT/article/view/98/195



Is this why you rage at the darkness rather than create the light? I suppose it is easier after all...

Don't feel too alone though. Your mantle is always waiting for you to take it up onto your shoulders once more. It was with you from birth and will be with you in your bones long after death.



Not my trail of logic. Not sure how you got that impression.




The pinnacle of a troll post. Of course not every person owned a warhorse, but many people were skilled in horsemanship. It is well established. A very high % of Magyars in the past were skilled in horsemanship in relation to the non-nomadic West. The fact you would make the claim "Hungarians were not equestrian people" would make almost any modern scholar laugh. I think you're starting to make desperate claims to distance yourself from our Turkic-oriented past.

I speak about horses in general. 90% of peasants did not have Horses in Hungary,because horses were expensive that's why peasants used oxen to plow before the early 20th century.

[Turul Karom]

the core of our lifestyle" They were not so relevant dear wishful thinker neo-cuman.

I love this level of denial, in the fact that it is so simple to dispute. Allow me to yet again remind you about all of our similarities:

All of the names of our leaders were Turkic before we became Catholic. We followed Tengrism while on the steppes together. Our alphabet is directly derived from Old Turkic as a child system. We have many Turkic words that are as old as the language and our ancient lifestyle itself. We lived in yurts and fought on horseback with the same tactics. Our government structure directly followed the Turkic model. We lived together in Central Asia for hundreds of years. Fellow Turkic peoples like the Avars, Cumans, Pechenegs, etc, settled in Hungary. We celebrate our common culture and brotherhood today, with Kurultaj.

Oh, and incase you did not read about the study in this thread...

"Thus, most of the population in the Carpathian Basin originated from the Hun-Turkic cultural community of the Eurasian Steppe and was accompanied by Slavonic and German-speaking groups."

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

You see, the more science freely researches, the more evidence it gives to our Turkic past, which is not even disputed, but rather how much % of it is Turkic. Even you, who would once feverishly deny any Turkic relations, now say "it was not as much as you think", because even you cannot logically deny the overwhelming evidence. You are too smart to ignore how silly it makes you look to deny it all outright, so you try to obscure it and minimize it, and maybe try some insults if things do not go well. That is OK; it is how most humans debate when they begin to run into a wall or their ideology begins to fail. You will become more comfortable with your own Turkicness over time.


You must believe in conspiracy theories, because it is the basic core and the only survival tactics of all kind pseudo science. You must explain somehow (for yourself or for other people) that why historians linguists did not support your politically motivated theories. "Solution A" The scholars are stupid. Nobody will believe it, it simply doesn't work. "Solution B": The scholars are evil and conspired against "THE TRUTH", it works much better for poorly educated classes (proletarians), who have a traditional and general tendency of mistrust against the intellectuals and against the higher educated classes. The most 4 common and most popular conspiracy theories among Turanian screwballs: 1. The Habsburg conspiracy, 2. The conspiracy of the linguists and historians of the MTA (Hungarian Academy of Sciences) 3. the communist conspiracy (despite that Soviet Union and Communism collapsed long time ago.) 4. The Jews conspired against Turanism. (Despite the fact, that Jewish orientalist played the key role in Hungarian Turanism)

Not all scholars are stupid, not all scholars are smart. Also they all have bias in some way; it is why outside researchers take part in order to minimize this bias for or against. But note how when foreign academics state positive findings about our Turkic past, your aggression shows and you dismiss it because they are not Hungarians or are "uneducated". I also love how you accuse me of stating a "straw man" when you list four of them yourself, even blaming "the Jews" for Hungarian Turanism lolol. If many Jewish scholars supported your evermore restrictive identity of "Hungarian-ness", I believe you would change your song.

Ironically, those in the West further poison their historical criticism about Turanism with the idea that it is an almost far-right or proto-fascist ideal (lololol) on places such as the Wikipedia dumpster or in an occasional not-sourced and obscure opinion article, but then there are those like yourself who claim that it is a Jewish ploy and that it originates in the left-wing historical circles of the nation. You cannot make this insane bias on each side up if you tried, haha! Well, I guess you can, if you are trying to discredit an identity and are speaking to an uninformed public.


There are no neo-Cuman conspiracy, there is only ignorance, as I said many times. Turanists did not conspire against anything, because they create and feed conspiracy theories about other groups. Conspiring against something or somebody is not equal to believe in conspiracy theories.

So, "neo-Cuman days" as you call it, with the idea of Turkifying Hungary from the inside, that is not a conspiracy, but discussing various bias in academia or in history is a conspiracy? Do you understand how that sounds?


Neo Cumans and neo-cuman identity exist in Cumania Kunság region, despite the real cumans were exterminated during the long Turkish war. Why do you try to deny it?

We have talked about this already. I disagree with you, that all of the Cumans were killed to the very last man, woman and child. Also, allow me to entertain you. Really. Let us pretend that every Cuman was exterminated from the planet during this time. It does not change anything about our own Turkic past before our settlement. It also does not change the genetic imprint they had on various areas of Hungary. Or do you think that Cumans and Hungarians never shared the same tent on some occasions? lol

Regardless, your statements about Cumans (inaccurate) are just a distraction tactic. At Kurultaj, there are no "Cuman" flags, but only fellow Turkic and Magyar flags from the past and present day. Or maybe they are trying to supplant us? But wait, they are not even "Cumans", but a mix of confused/ignorant/conspiring Hungarians/Romanians or whatever else you feel like including in their genetics at the time. Honestly, you can rage against "Cumans" all you'd like, it doesn't change our own Turkic past.


However you can see on all internationalEnglish language forums video portals, that anti-Hungarian Serbians Romanians Slovaks always support the turanist lunatic believers. Because they know its magic to discredit Hungarians in Europe (Like in the era of Trianon, when Benes and the little-Entente used it successfully against Hungarians.

This is the actual dangerous idea. Nobody takes those comments seriously, but your idea of discarding the truth about our origins is what gives us zero credibility to the land we have in Europe. To you, we are all basically Germans speaking a non-Germanic language. Remember when I asked you "what is a Hungarian?" and your answer excluded about 90% of the country? What do you think will happen to all those non-Transdubanian Magyars and their territory? But maybe you do not care, as they are not "real Hungarians".

It is sad, as you are Székely as well so you claim. This embodies even more Turkic tradition in both fact and myth, and you discard it to bend and scrape for the safety of the West that doesn't even give a shit about you. Hungarians are a wall against invaders for centuries, we are the bastion that takes every sling and arrow and we have nothing. No country has tried to be more "European" than us, with so little to show for it. You are not stupid, you know how we are portrayed in the west today, and it has nothing to do with "Turanism" but rather our lack of "European values". When will you stop kissing the hand that smacks your face? We don't live in the time of Adolf Hitler where being the "whitest" person means something like the difference between going to a gas chamber or not. Our unique culture and origin, which only offers us a precious place of refuge and spirit, is somehow bad? These stupid semantics about Orthodox or "balloon heads" is cute and fun until the EU comes knocking on our door for the kilo of flesh it demands from the "big bad Hungarians" who are so "backward" in every century.

Nobody is saying to hate the last 1000 years; we rise up time and time again and refuse to be "taken" quietly into the darkness. Take your honor being descended of the border guards, and how we stood alone and still stand alone today in the face of EU disdain. Your unhealthy sprint towards westernization would make us the losers in this game of EU assimilation, just like it would have during the Hapsburg monarchy. Does Trianon hurt? Of course it hurts. But it is just soil, and the nation is the people who are Hungarians, and I do not believe in magical soil. Just like the times of old, the Hungarian nation is wherever our tents find a place to be set on this green earth. Such a unique history we have in this world. For the love of everything Hungarian, stand up for it with pride.



"It grows larger every year"

When I make an argument about the number of people who show up, it is not to prove "it is right", it is to counter your claims that it is "small and not significant". You are again, ascribing a point that I am not making.


And how much people have university degree in the cumanian turan days? 1%? 0.5%? :)))) Typical.

...and here I thought that you were learning your logical fallacies? Here, a wikipedia link (that people seem to love to source from so much lol) about the fallacy you just committed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

But yes, as usual, I will entertain this from you as well. When you begin your own event "Stears True Magyar Days", you can admit only those who have multiple degrees, so you can brag to me that 100% of those who attend have academic credits. What will you all do there? Make online accounts and post about how much you don't like craftsmen? lol, very productive for our culture. Kurultaj is a growing experience in all facets: athletics, academics, spirituality and culture. But most importantly, with our international Turkic family to strengthen awareness of our roots.

Which brings me to this statement from you...


This international turkic brotherhood of Gábor Vona reminds me the Jobbik's version of internationalism. Turanism: They way from proletarian internationalism to turkic internationalism.

Turkic internationalism has nothing to do about communist economics, but economic improvement in general. Even historically and to this very day, the Hungarian Turanism Organization was only focused on the following:

"Turáni Társaság célja az egész turánság, vagyis a magyar nemzet és a velünk rokon többi európai és ázsiai népek kulturális és gazdasági előrehaladása, tömörülése, erősödése, úgymint az ázsiai kontinens földrajzi, néprajzi, gazdasági stb. kutatása múltban és jelenben. Politikai és felekezeti kérdések kizártak. Céljait a nem turáni népekkel egyetértve óhajtja elérni."

"The goal of Turanian Society is the cultural and economic progress, confederation, flourishment of all Turanians, i.e. the Hungarian nation and all kindred European and Asian nations, furthermore the geographical, ethnographical, economical etc. research of the Asian continent, past and present. Political and religious issues are excluded. It wishes to accomplish its objectives in agreement with non-Turanian nations."

You do not represent or refute these statements in good faith, because you do not wish to be associated with these peoples. To an extent, that's fine. Nobody will chain you to a horse and take you to Kurultaj to have fun enjoying the day. You should be free to associate and disassociate as you please. But you're misrepresenting the entire idea, and that is the issue. It is also very noticeable and only hurts your "argument", though it changes frequently.


I speak about horses in general. 90% of peasants did not have Horses in Hungary,because horses were expensive that's why peasants used oxen to plow before the early 20th century.

You are again, cleverly attempting to blur the topic. Horses are valuable for transportation and combat. You do not see our ancestors riding oxen into battle or for transportation. Oxen do not need training and are stocky and strong, so they are much better plowing than horses, usually. The larger horses would come in time to be used in combat as our tactics became western. Your own lack of Hungarian equestrianism knowledge might be showing, because you would know that there are different horses for different roles in combat and field work. We used lighter, more agile horses in order to skirmish and for horse archery, while the west used a larger, muscular horse, the "destrier", for their military tactics because their offensive charge was based on the knight and heavy cavalry. It was not until we became more westernized that we adopted this style of combat with heavy destrier horses as well, which was of course reserved for the knightly elite. Before this, we fought in loose lines without solid divisions to be commanded and that required a smaller, more agile horse to accomplish.

By the way, Stearsolina has added me as a friend, how about you as well so I can accept together? Then you can keep up with the posts so that we do not always speak in circles. Well, unless we "forget"... haha

[blogen]

All of the names of our leaders were Turkic before we became Catholic.

None of them had Turkic name! Some of them had Turkic origin Hungarian (magyarized) name.

Some examples from the Árpád-house:
Levedi (father of Álmos, grandfather of Árpád): from the Slavonic lev (lion) with Magyar diminutive: "i"
Álmos (father of Árpád): from the Finno-ugric origin Magyar álom (dream) word with Magyar suffix: "s" (álmos is an adjective)
Árpád: from the Turkic árpa (barley) with Magyar diminutive: "d"
Liüntika (son of Árpád): from the Slavonic louanta (hunter) with Magyar diminutive: "a"
or
Gyeücsa (Géza): from the Turkic yaβγu title with an Magyar diminutive: "csa"
etc.

All of these names were clear Hungarian names. Sometimes from not Hungarian origin words or titles, but Hungarian native speakers created, with Magyar grammar rules. These natives were the members of the Árpád-house. Fathers, mothers from this family.

sources:
Zimonyi István: A magyarság korai történetének sarokpontjai - Szeged, 2012 (http://real-d.mtak.hu/597/7/dc_500_12_doktori_mu.pdf)
Berta Árpád: Keszi és társai - Nyelvtudományi Közlemények 101., 2004 (http://www.nytud.hu/nyk/101/bertakeszi.pdf)

[Rethel]

Levedi (father of Álmos, grandfather of Árpád): from the Slavonic lev (lion) with Magyar diminutive: "i"

So his result makes a lot of sense.
Also if it would turn to be Z280 would make also.

[Turul Karom]

None of them had Turkic name! Some of them had Turkic origin Hungarian (magyarized) name.


You understand exactly what I meant. You are also leaving out the fact that Vajk, Géza, Sarolt, Emese, etc, are also all Turkic and not substantially changed in any way, if at all. Our alphabet is a child system of Old Turkic. You even illustrate how Turkic the given names above already are. Do not just select slightly Magyarized versions of Turkic names and ignore the fully Turkic ones as well, then say "none of them had a Turkic name". That makes no sense and you know it. That, or you need to explain your point far, far better than you have.

[Rethel]

Liüntika (son of Árpád): from the Slavonic louanta (hunter) with Magyar diminutive: "a"

I don;t reconzied it. How it is slavic?

[Rethel]

But you stated yourself Hungarian origins western Siberia...how is that steppe ?
Do you mean they lived in southern parts of western Siberia, perhaps ?

Origin was in Manchuria anyway (or in Yunnan according to "science"),
so there is no point in arguing where did they come from in mentioned
area. It was just a bus-stop for them in long jouney, where they could
absorbed some foreign element, like for example Arpads. (They, I mean
speakers and N people, becasue what should be consider Hungarians
when you reject this, I clearly don;'t know, because there is coming
out over and over again an Indoeuropean element. Majority one, which
did play a main role through 90% of written history of that country).

[Rethel]

Lets add, what the Adalbert III (Bela III) had to say in this matter,
under who's protection the history of the family was written:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cgyek

In the year of Our Lord's incarnation 819, Ügek, the noblest chieftain
of Scythia descending from the great house of Magog, took to wife in
Dentumoger the daughter of Prince Eunedubelian, called Emese, from whom he begot a son,
who was named Álmos. But he is called Álmos from a divine event, because when she was
pregnant a divine vision appeared to his mother in a dream in the form of a falcon that seemed
to come to her and impregnate her and made known to her that from her womb a torrent would
come forth and from her loins glorious kings be generated, but that they would not multiply in
their own land. Because a dream is called álom in the Hungarian language and his birth was
predicted in a dream, so he was called Álmos. Or he was called Álmos, that is holy, because
holy kings and dukes were born of his line.

He himself claimed to be an Indoeuropean, Scythian, descendat of Japheth.
So his result to be R1, is perfectly fine and agreeable with his own claimed history.

In addition it is worthy to add, that according to the same medieval
legends, Hungarians as a folk were descendants of Ham and Nemrod.
So, if they knew the difference, then we shouldn;t be surrprized also.

[blogen]

So his result makes a lot of sense.
Also if it would turn to be Z280 would make also.

?


Ügek

He was a mythical ancestor only.

Ügyek: From the Finno-Ugric origin Hungarian word: üd/üg (holy) with the Magyar diminutive: "k" or from the Turkic üge/öge (prudent) with the Magyar diminutive: "k". The Turkic origin loanword is the less probable, but grammarly proper. The Finno-Ugric origin world is presumably version, because the mythical role of this person: the holy ancestor.

[Rethel]

?

If guy was bearing slavic name, and he would have slavic
haplotype it would be self explainable, wouldn;t it?

[Turul Karom]

Lets add, what the Adalbert III (Bela III) had to say in this matter,
under who's protection the history of the family was written:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cgyek

In the year of Our Lord's incarnation 819, Ügek, the noblest chieftain
of Scythia descending from the great house of Magog, took to wife in
Dentumoger the daughter of Prince Eunedubelian, called Emese, from whom he begot a son,
who was named Álmos. But he is called Álmos from a divine event, because when she was
pregnant a divine vision appeared to his mother in a dream in the form of a falcon that seemed
to come to her and impregnate her and made known to her that from her womb a torrent would
come forth and from her loins glorious kings be generated, but that they would not multiply in
their own land. Because a dream is called álom in the Hungarian language and his birth was
predicted in a dream, so he was called Álmos. Or he was called Álmos, that is holy, because
holy kings and dukes were born of his line.

He himself claimed to be an Indoeuropean, Scythian, descendat of Japheth.
So his result to be R1, is perfectly fine and agreeable with his own claimed history.

In addition it is worthy to add, that according to the same medieval
legends, Hungarians as a folk were descendants of Ham and Nemrod.
So, if they knew the difference, then we shouldn;t be surrprized also.

.... did you read the rest of your link? There is no Slavic name origin here either.

"It is said, speculated or at least possible that the earlier Grand Princes of the Hungarians were also descendants of the Hun Khans, as well as other Turkic peoples, and through them from some daughters of Emperors of China. Simon of Kéza's Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum narrated that royal lineage that makes Hunnic ruler Attila the sixth-generation ancestor of Árpád, conqueror of the Pannonian Basin, through Attila's son Csaba, his son Ed, his son Ügyek, his son Előd, his son Álmos. Álmos was ruler of the Magyars and the father of Árpád."

The naming origin from your own wiki source says it's either a uniquely Magyar name, or Turkic/Uyghur:

1) Öge/Üge - Turk dignitary name, according to historian György Györffy. The meaning of it is "wise" and "sage", also "councillor". The word is also used by the uyghurs.

2) Üge - The last ruler of the Uyghur Empire, also a contemporary to Ügyek. He was murdered in 846 in the Altai Mountains.[5] It is speculated, that when the Empire fell apart, some Uyghur fragments could have escaped westward.

[blogen]

If guy was bearing slavic name

Wrong, clear Hungarian name with meaning between the Hungarians only.

[blogen]

I don;t reconzied it. How it is slavic?

Łowęta name from 1136 From the old Slavonic lovъ (hunting) +ęta.

source: Old Polish Personal Name Dictionary, SłSNO. 3: 336

[Bobby Martnen]

R1ETHELITES WUZ KANGZ N SHEEEIT!!!!!!

[Rethel]

He was a mythical ancestor only.

Doesn't matter, he was or not.
The matter is that the story fits
and that their awereness was correct.

[Rethel]

.... did you read the rest of your link? There is no Slavic name origin here either.

:confused:



R1ETHELITES WUZ KANGZ N SHEEEIT!!!!!!

:picard2:

[Rethel]

Wrong, clear Hungarian name with meaning between the Hungarians only.

You said is of slavic provenance...


Łowęta name from 1136 From the old Slavonic lovъ (hunting) +ęta.

source: Old Polish Personal Name Dictionary, SłSNO. 3: 336

Then ok.
Hard to get from louanta.

[Bobby Martnen]

:picard2:

PICAR1D2 EMOJI!

[Turul Karom]

:confused:

Your wikipedia link had much more to say about the name origins and highly favored Turkic-Magyar roots in both evidence and number of examples.

[blogen]

Doesn't matter, he was or not.
The matter is that the story fits
and that their awereness was correct.

What story? Scythian = steppic in the medieval terminology and not an ethnicity, etc.


You said is of slavic provenance...

Where? The name is Hungarian origin. The word was Slavonic origin, not the name!


Then ok.
Hard to get from louanta.

The HUN Levente came from a SLV Louanta form, like the HUN köszméte from the SLV kosmata and lot of other loanwords.

[Jana]

Origin was in Manchuria anyway (or in Yunnan according to "science"),
so there is no point in arguing where did they come from in mentioned
area. It was just a bus-stop for them in long jouney, where they could
absorbed some foreign element, like for example Arpads. (They, I mean
speakers and N people, becasue what should be consider Hungarians
when you reject this, I clearly don;'t know, because there is coming
out over and over again an Indoeuropean element. Majority one, which
did play a main role through 90% of written history of that country).

:picard2:

[Bobby Martnen]

AR1PADS WUZ R1ETHELITES N SHEEEIT

[Turul Karom]

Where? The name is Hungarian origin. The word was Slavonic origin, not the name!

He is not understanding because he is seeing if he can link the name origins (not the word) to Slavic ones.

[Rethel]

Your wikipedia link had much more to say about the name origins and highly favored Turkic-Magyar roots in both evidence and number of examples.

But I was talking about different thing and subject.

[Rethel]

What story? Scythian = steppic in the medieval terminology and not an ethnicity, etc.

Scythia means Scythia in the first order and he was from there, no matter what tribe he belong to
Secodnly, 1/3 of Turks has IE (mostly Scythian) origin. The same with "steppians" what is not a real thing.
Thirdly, the source saied, that he was an IE as well, no matter scythian or other provenance.
Thats all.


Where? The name is Hungarian origin. The word was Slavonic origin, not the name!

Aha. But the name could be implemented as well, as originaly slavic, transmutating later.



The HUN Levente came from a SLV Louanta form, like the HUN köszméte from the SLV kosmata and lot of other loanwords.

Ok.

[Rethel]

He is not understanding because he is seeing if he can link the name origins (not the word) to Slavic ones.

If someone has the name of foreign etymology, then it is probable, that he is of that origin too.
If you would find a person in Poland in Xth century who was named Otto or Henry, the he would
be on 99% a German. High probability was also in next centuries, and with some names is still
today. If you would find for example someone who is named Mściwoj in Hungary, he would be
in 99% a Pole, not Hungarian. The same was in other folks, the oldest the more.

[blogen]

Scythia means Scythia in the first order and he was from there, no matter what tribe he belong to
Secodnly, 1/3 of Turks has IE (mostly Scythian) origin. The same with "steppians" what is not a real thing.
Thirdly, the source saied, that he was an IE as well, no matter scythian or other provenance.
Thats all.

:picard2:

Nobody know nothing about the Scythians ethnicity in the medieval times. This was a meaningless name, but a clear marker for a lifestyle.


Aha. But the name could be implemented as well, as originaly slavic, transmutating later.

Levente's name was never Slavonic. His name is a Hungarian name. The Hungarian name is Slavonic origin, but Levente was not Louanta.

[Turul Karom]

If someone has the name of foreign etymology, then it is probable, that he is of that origin too.
If you would find a person in Poland in Xth century who was named Otto or Henry, the he would
be on 99% a German. High probability was also in next centuries, and with some names is still
today. If you would find for example someone who is named Mściwoj in Hungary, he would be
in 99% a Pole, not Hungarian. The same was in other folks, the oldest the more.

Alright, we will follow this logic. What about the names Vajk, Géza, Sarolt, Emese, Csaba, Koppány, Bendegúz, etc?

[Rethel]

Nobody know nothing about the Scythians ethnicity in the medieval times. This was a meaningless name, but a clear marker for a lifestyle.

Do you think they all were wiped out? :picard1:

Btw, man, you didn;t understand.
I didn;t say he was a Scyth - the more true one - can you get it?

Now you are turning this, where were Scythians in the
Middle Ages. For what? To make a artificial problem?


Levente's name was never Slavonic. His name is a Hungarian name. The Hungarian name is Slavonic origin, but Levente was not Louanta.

You do not know, as he supposedly lived in pre-historic times, when
Hugarians were somewhere on the East, and possible mixed some Slavs.


Alright, we will follow this logic. What about the names Vajk, Géza, Sarolt, Emese, Csaba, Koppány, Bendegúz, etc?

It depends what role they play and in which times they appieard.
I did not say that foreing forname means always a foreign people.
So there is no sense to showing this list, the more, that some seems
to be a surnames and cognomic names.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

If someone has the name of foreign etymology, then it is probable, that he is of that origin too.

Not necessary... really.

[Jana]

By the way, Stearsolina has added me as a friend, how about you as well so I can accept together? Then you can keep up with the posts so that we do not always speak in circles. Well, unless we "forget"... haha

:(

[Rethel]

Not necessary... really.

Read the context. :bored:

[Turul Karom]

:(

Why the sad face?

[Jana]

Why the sad face?

He won't change his opinion.

[Turul Karom]

He won't change his opinion.

Because? It is not an issue regardless. It's just entertaining; he could use some support with his comfort levels regarding his own background. I'm sure you are keeping up with our dialogue.

[Jana]

Because? It is not an issue regardless. It's just entertaining; he could use some support with his comfort levels regarding his own background. I'm sure you are keeping up with our dialogue.

Yes it interesting to read :P

[Turul Karom]

Yes it interesting to read :P

Your interpretation of the Árpád dna results? Thoughts on the downstream possibilities?