Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda
02-17-2018, 10:41 AM
Hello everybody,
I'm a Moroccan Berber from the Atlas mountains.
I'm G-CTS342+ which left Anatolia toward Europe about 10.000 years ago. A sister clade got to the Middle East.
All the clades under G-CTS342 are fully Europeans : G-Z724 > G-Z1903 > G-Z3428 > G-Z26414 > G-Z6523 > G-Z27232.
G-Z1903 has been found in Bulgarian and Hungarian Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic. G-Z3428 and G-Z26414 are present in the whole Europe (Denmark, Germany, England, Italy, Switzerland and Austria, Spain).
I'm G-Z6523+ (and very likely G-Z27232+) and my closest matches are Spaniards, especially from Northwestern Spain, which is an isolated area.
All the Jews G-Z6523+ are Europeans, whether Ashkenazim or Sephardi. None of them is Mizrahi.
All the clades below G-Z724 are too deeply rooted throughout Europe (and almost absent from the Near East).
My clade arrived to North Africa through Iberia (like the T carrier found in Late Moroccan G- Neolithic came from Iberia, like mtDNA haplogroups K1, T2 and X2). The only doubt is the exact date. It could be around 1400 -1500 BCE.
Under G-Z27232 (TMRCA: 3400 ybp), there are two subclades :
- G-Z6028 (a Druze, European Jews and a Mende from Sierra Leone). TMRCA : 3000 YBP
- G-Y21161 (Sardinians). TMRCA : 3000 YBP
The TMRCA between the Druze, the European Jews and the Mende, is about 3000 years. Where were their ancestors ?
The Mende is totally lacking of European admixture (for at least 500 years). He can't therefore be of Iberian origins, and G-Z6028 is (until now) totally absent in the Peninsula.
What could be the bridge between the Sardinians, the Druze, the Sephardi/Ashkenazim, the Mende, the Berbers?
Ted Kandell (President of Open-Genomes) theorizes it that way :
- The Carthaginians who had Berber admixture colonized Sardinia : they even brought N-A slaves and workers to the island
- The Druze can be a Carthaginian refugee / merchant in Phoenicia
- Berbers had massive conversions to Judaism, as we can show it from E-M81's and E-M33's Jews. Several Andalusi Jews had North African origins, and its known that Sephardi emigrated toward Eastern European : the evidences lies in the fact that some Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Polish and Belorussians Jews are E-M81 and U6a7a1b (mtDNA). Note also that France could have been a bridge between Sephardi and Ashkenazim "worlds".
- The Mende may have a Berber Y-ancestry : the Ghana Empire was populated by Soninke clans of Mande-speaking, and its territory included current Mauritania which has been Berberized about the IIIth century CE
I'm G-Z6028-.
72577
There are two other North Africans from Berber areas that are very probably (the evidence lies on their markers) G-Z27232+ as well : one's ethnic group is Jbala (Arabized Berbers from Northern Morocco) and the other one is Berber-speaking from Jerba.
A study (Cruciani & al, 2007) indicates that G is found among Berbers from the Middle Atlas (4,3%) and Northeastern Morocco (6%) without specifying their clades. It's certain that - a least a part of them - is G-Z7232+.
Last but not least : on the basis of 37 markers, a Moroccan Sephardi Jew matches more closely the Jebli than he does with the Druze.
It refutes the claim of Levantine origins (Phoenicians + Jews) and strengthens the idea of Berbers/Iberians conversions to Judaism.
We shouldn't forget that before E-M81's founder effects (around 300 BCE), others haplogroups should have been more widespread in N-W Africa:
- E-V65 as it has been found among Basques, Sardinians and Guanches mummies! All Berber-groups have important amounts of E-V65 (Cruciani & al, 2007)
- E-M2 as proves it the last study https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5 / there is a Moroccan Berber who carries that haplogroup and his markers are totally distinct from the Western-Africans ones, which confirms its subclade has ancient presence in N-W Africa. Two clades of E-M2 appears to be exclusively North Africans : E-V5001 and E-V4990. The TMRCA is about 4500 ybp
- R-V88 and more precisely its clade R-V4759 (TMRCA : 4700 ybp).
- E-M33 as it has been found among Guanches mummies as well, and in Sardinia (the only link possible is N-W Africa)
- T since it has been discovered in the Late Moroccan Neolithic
In the case of E-M33 and R-V88, North Africa has been the link between Africa and Europe. The same thing could maybe be said about G-Z7232...
It's impossible for a whole population to carry the same haplogroup.
What do you think about it?
I think that the old of G in North Africa is often underestimated
I'm a Moroccan Berber from the Atlas mountains.
I'm G-CTS342+ which left Anatolia toward Europe about 10.000 years ago. A sister clade got to the Middle East.
All the clades under G-CTS342 are fully Europeans : G-Z724 > G-Z1903 > G-Z3428 > G-Z26414 > G-Z6523 > G-Z27232.
G-Z1903 has been found in Bulgarian and Hungarian Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic. G-Z3428 and G-Z26414 are present in the whole Europe (Denmark, Germany, England, Italy, Switzerland and Austria, Spain).
I'm G-Z6523+ (and very likely G-Z27232+) and my closest matches are Spaniards, especially from Northwestern Spain, which is an isolated area.
All the Jews G-Z6523+ are Europeans, whether Ashkenazim or Sephardi. None of them is Mizrahi.
All the clades below G-Z724 are too deeply rooted throughout Europe (and almost absent from the Near East).
My clade arrived to North Africa through Iberia (like the T carrier found in Late Moroccan G- Neolithic came from Iberia, like mtDNA haplogroups K1, T2 and X2). The only doubt is the exact date. It could be around 1400 -1500 BCE.
Under G-Z27232 (TMRCA: 3400 ybp), there are two subclades :
- G-Z6028 (a Druze, European Jews and a Mende from Sierra Leone). TMRCA : 3000 YBP
- G-Y21161 (Sardinians). TMRCA : 3000 YBP
The TMRCA between the Druze, the European Jews and the Mende, is about 3000 years. Where were their ancestors ?
The Mende is totally lacking of European admixture (for at least 500 years). He can't therefore be of Iberian origins, and G-Z6028 is (until now) totally absent in the Peninsula.
What could be the bridge between the Sardinians, the Druze, the Sephardi/Ashkenazim, the Mende, the Berbers?
Ted Kandell (President of Open-Genomes) theorizes it that way :
- The Carthaginians who had Berber admixture colonized Sardinia : they even brought N-A slaves and workers to the island
- The Druze can be a Carthaginian refugee / merchant in Phoenicia
- Berbers had massive conversions to Judaism, as we can show it from E-M81's and E-M33's Jews. Several Andalusi Jews had North African origins, and its known that Sephardi emigrated toward Eastern European : the evidences lies in the fact that some Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Polish and Belorussians Jews are E-M81 and U6a7a1b (mtDNA). Note also that France could have been a bridge between Sephardi and Ashkenazim "worlds".
- The Mende may have a Berber Y-ancestry : the Ghana Empire was populated by Soninke clans of Mande-speaking, and its territory included current Mauritania which has been Berberized about the IIIth century CE
I'm G-Z6028-.
72577
There are two other North Africans from Berber areas that are very probably (the evidence lies on their markers) G-Z27232+ as well : one's ethnic group is Jbala (Arabized Berbers from Northern Morocco) and the other one is Berber-speaking from Jerba.
A study (Cruciani & al, 2007) indicates that G is found among Berbers from the Middle Atlas (4,3%) and Northeastern Morocco (6%) without specifying their clades. It's certain that - a least a part of them - is G-Z7232+.
Last but not least : on the basis of 37 markers, a Moroccan Sephardi Jew matches more closely the Jebli than he does with the Druze.
It refutes the claim of Levantine origins (Phoenicians + Jews) and strengthens the idea of Berbers/Iberians conversions to Judaism.
We shouldn't forget that before E-M81's founder effects (around 300 BCE), others haplogroups should have been more widespread in N-W Africa:
- E-V65 as it has been found among Basques, Sardinians and Guanches mummies! All Berber-groups have important amounts of E-V65 (Cruciani & al, 2007)
- E-M2 as proves it the last study https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5 / there is a Moroccan Berber who carries that haplogroup and his markers are totally distinct from the Western-Africans ones, which confirms its subclade has ancient presence in N-W Africa. Two clades of E-M2 appears to be exclusively North Africans : E-V5001 and E-V4990. The TMRCA is about 4500 ybp
- R-V88 and more precisely its clade R-V4759 (TMRCA : 4700 ybp).
- E-M33 as it has been found among Guanches mummies as well, and in Sardinia (the only link possible is N-W Africa)
- T since it has been discovered in the Late Moroccan Neolithic
In the case of E-M33 and R-V88, North Africa has been the link between Africa and Europe. The same thing could maybe be said about G-Z7232...
It's impossible for a whole population to carry the same haplogroup.
What do you think about it?
I think that the old of G in North Africa is often underestimated