Longobard DNA study

[Peterski]

But you guys have been enslaved

"We" ???

LOL. Descendants of Slavic slaves now live in North Africa, Anatolia, Greece, Spain, etc.

In Poland live the ones who were not enslaved and not exported abroad.

If my ancestors were enslaved, I would be living in Morocco now:

https://www.slavorum.org/slavic-fortress-in-morocco-poles-in-search-of-the-ancient-african-secret/

Or in Spain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_Dénia

Or in Turkey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Slav

[Scar]

"We" ???

LOL. Descendants of Slavic slaves now live in North Africa, Anatolia, Greece, Spain, etc.

In Poland live the ones who were not enslaved and not exported abroad.

If my ancestors was enslaved, I would be living in Morocco now:

https://www.slavorum.org/slavic-fortress-in-morocco-poles-in-search-of-the-ancient-african-secret/

You could descend from local/internal slavery. As I said if we go back far enough in time no one escapes that fate.

[Peterski]

You could descend from local/internal slavery.

My mom is probably descended from Swedish slaves, judging by her DNA results. During the 1650s Swedes captured by Polish forces were forcibly settled as woodcutters and farmers in several settlements.

This article says about it: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.poloniainfo.se%2Fartykul.php%3 Fid%3D195

My mom gets 10% Scandinavian and 2% Finnish in FTDNA. And some of her ancestors are from a village which could be established for Swedish captives in the 1650s. But I'm not entirely sure about that.

The Swedish army was multi-ethnic. It had also Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Germans, etc.

[Scar]

My mom is probably descended from Swedish slaves, judging by her DNA results. During the 1650s Swedes captured by Polish forces were forcibly settled as woodcutters and farmers in several settlements.

This article says about it: https://www.poloniainfo.se/artykul.php?id=195

My mom gets 10% Scandinavian and 2% Finnish in FTDNA. And some of her ancestors are from a village which could be established for Swedish captives in the 1650s. But I'm not entirely sure about that.

The Swedish could just be shared ancestry between some Poles (likely of German descent) and Swedes.

[Smeagol]

Suck it, faggot. Romans were greasy haired-jet black haired Meds with olive skin and bushy beards.

Lol, just gonna leave this here:

Pigmentation of Roman and Byzantine Emperors

Julius Caesar
Eyes: black (nigra) (Suetonius. lul. 45)
Skin: pale white (leukos) (Plutarch. Caes. 17)

Augustus
Hair: almost blond (light brown?) (subflavum) (Suetonius. Aug. 79)
Eyes: grey (glauci) (Pliny. HN. xi)
Skin: between dark, and fair (Suetonius)

Tiberius
Eyes: grey (glauci) (Pliny. HN. xi. 37)
Skin: light (candido) (Suetonius. Tib. 68)

Caligula
Beard: golden (aurea) (Suetonius. Calig. 52)
Skin: white (Suetonius. Calig. 50)

Nero
Hair: almost blonde (light brown?) (subflavum) (Suetonius. Ner. 51)
Eyes: blue (caesis) (Suetonius. Ner. 51)
Skin: radiant (Sen. Y. Apocol)

Galba
Eyes: blue (caeruleis) (Suetonius. Galb. 21)

Vitellius
Hair: reddish (Malalas. Chronogr. 10. 259. 335)
Eyes: grey (Malalas. Chronogr. 10. 259. 335)
Skin: ruddy (Suetonius. Vit. 17)

Vespasian
Eyes: wine colored (Malalas. Chronogr. 10. 336)

Titus
Hair: blond (Cougny. Anthol. Palat. £131, p. 20)

Domitian
Hair: blond (xanthus) (Malalas)
Eyes: grey (glaukds) (Malalas)
Skin: pale (Pliny. Y. Panegyr. xlviii. 4)

Trajan
Hair: blond (Sieglin 1935. p. 109)

Hadrian
Hair: dark (kuanochaita) (Sibylline Oracle. v. 46b-50)
Eyes: grey (glaukdphthalmos) (Polem. 148. Malalas. Chronogr. 11. 277. 363; Scr. Phys. ii. 51-52)

Antoninus Pius
Eyes: wine colored (Malalas Chronogr 11. 280)

Lucius Verus
Hair: blond (Historia Augusta. Life of Verus. x. 7)

Marcus Aurelius
Skin: shining, and transparent (Julian. Caesars. 317c)

Commodus
Hair: blond (Herodian. i. 12. 5)
Eyes: grey (Malalas. Chronogr. 33)

Didius Julianus
Hair: blond (in a coin inscription he is described as looking like Commodus) (Coins of the Roman Empire, and the British museum. 5. ixix)

Elagabulus
Skin: fair, bright face (Bibliotheca Hagiographica Graeca)

Constantius Chlorus
Hair: fair (Zonaras. Epitome. Historiarum. 12. 31b)

Constantine I
Hair: black (John Mauropous)
Eyes: blue (Polemo of Laodicea. De Physiognomonica)
Skin: ruddy, fair (Euseb. Life of Const; Malalas. Chronogr. 13. 1)

Constantius II
Hair: blond (George Cedrenus. Compendium Historiarum. p. 521)

Jovian
Eyes: blue (Canter, 1928, p. 396)

Valentinian I
Eyes: blue (Amm. Marc. 30. 9. 6)

Theodosius I
Hair: blond (Cedrenus. Compendium Historiarum. p. 552; Aur. Vict. Caes. 48.8)

Arcadius
Skin: swarthy (subnigri) (Philostorgius. xii. 3)

Theodosius II
Hair: golden (Cedrenus. Compendium Historiarum. p. 587)

Anastasius I
Eyes: 1 blue eye, 1 brown eye (Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 69)

Justinian I
Skin: ruddy (Historia Arcana viii. 4ff)

Theodora
hair: black (John Mauropous. Johannis Euchaitarum Metropolitae quae supersunt in cod. Poems. 57, 75, 80, 87)

Heraclius
Eyes: blue (Leo Grammatikos, Hist. i. 47)
Skin: fair (Leo Grammatikos, Hist. i. 47)

Basil II
Eyes: blue (Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 35)

Zoe Porphyrogenita
Hair: golden ( Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 86)
Skin: white (Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 86)

[wvwvw]

Percentage of Non-Romans was increasing also in the army, which started to employ a lot of "barbarians". At the beginning ethnically Italic people were 4/5 of all soldiers, later % of foreigners in the army was increasing. In 212 AD all free inhabitants of the Empire regardless of their origin were granted Roman Citizenship. This is what I found on Roman Army Talk forum:

https://www.romanarmytalk.com

"Based on Epigraphics (Keppie 2000 / Birley 1979) concerning the early Imperial era from Augustus to Claudius (27BC-41AD) the Legion ratio was 2/3 - 4/5 Italian Legionaries; By Claudius/Nero (41AD-69AD) the ratio dropped to 1/2 of Italian Legionaries and in the era (69AD-117AD) Italian Legionaries were 1/5 in the West and 1/10 in the East (Alston 1995); Keeping in mind however that the "provincial" Legionaries were often of Italic stock (that is Veterans/Citizens), and Roman Italica (post 117AD) still provided the single largest contingent of any province in the Empire (Yann Le Bohec 1989), Centurions were still overwhelmingly Italic (Yann Le Bohec 1989) and the Praetorians were exclusively Italic (until Septimus Severus) and Mark Aurel even raised two complete/exclusive Italic Legions (Italica II/Italica III) for the Marcomannic-wars; In 212 AD Constitutio Antoniniana granted all peoples of the Roman world Citizenship (except slaves) and this century was marked by civil-wars, usurpators, secessionist empires and ended with the Tetrarchy and Rome no longer being the Capitol."

The people subjected to the rule of the Roman Empire were not called citizens. They were called subjects.

There were no Roman territories in Sub-Saharan Africa and there were no sub-Saharan Africans in the Roman legions.

The majority of the Romans armies were made up of the local populations.

The Romans legions in Greece for example were composed of local troops as were Roman Legions every where. The only time the Romans used "foreign" troops was when they were invading new territory or suppressing rebellions.

The (Romans) had a paid standing army. The army lived in camp. Roman armies were forbidden to enter Rome. The only military the citizens served in was the home guard when they did their national service not the legions.

[Peterski]

The ''Avar'' burials have been obviously biologically Slavic.

Or maybe Avars were Indo-European after all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#Language

"The ethnolinguistic affiliation of the Avars is uncertain.[4][6] Although there is sparse knowledge about the Avar language, scholars have suggested that the Avars could have spoken Iranian,[15] Mongolic,[6] Tungusic,[16][17][18] and Turkic.[20][41][42] A few historians influenced by panslavism suggest that over time Slavic became the lingua franca of the Avars.[21]"

[Scar]

Lol, just gonna leave this here:



Don't know where you got this information (and I'm not going to check anyway) but it would be curious if they were like this and the iconography overwhelmingly depicted dark people. Were they masochists or something? I trust in my eyes (and I have been to pompeii and many other ancient sites).

[Peterski]

The people subjected to the rule of the Roman Empire were not called citizens. They were called subjects.

Since 212 AD all inhabitants of the empire were granted citizenship.

[Scar]

The people subjected to the rule of the Roman Empire were not called citizens. They were called subjects.

Caracala granted citizenship to all at some point. But I don't know why you care, these nordicists are just trolling at this point. They derailed Token's thread.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Lol, just gonna leave this here:

Pigmentation of Roman and Byzantine Emperors

Julius Caesar
Eyes: black (nigra) (Suetonius. lul. 45)
Skin: pale white (leukos) (Plutarch. Caes. 17)

Augustus
Hair: almost blond (light brown?) (subflavum) (Suetonius. Aug. 79)
Eyes: grey (glauci) (Pliny. HN. xi)
Skin: between dark, and fair (Suetonius)

Tiberius
Eyes: grey (glauci) (Pliny. HN. xi. 37)
Skin: light (candido) (Suetonius. Tib. 68)

Caligula
Beard: golden (aurea) (Suetonius. Calig. 52)
Skin: white (Suetonius. Calig. 50)

Nero
Hair: almost blonde (light brown?) (subflavum) (Suetonius. Ner. 51)
Eyes: blue (caesis) (Suetonius. Ner. 51)
Skin: radiant (Sen. Y. Apocol)

Galba
Eyes: blue (caeruleis) (Suetonius. Galb. 21)

Vitellius
Hair: reddish (Malalas. Chronogr. 10. 259. 335)
Eyes: grey (Malalas. Chronogr. 10. 259. 335)
Skin: ruddy (Suetonius. Vit. 17)

Vespasian
Eyes: wine colored (Malalas. Chronogr. 10. 336)

Titus
Hair: blond (Cougny. Anthol. Palat. £131, p. 20)

Domitian
Hair: blond (xanthus) (Malalas)
Eyes: grey (glaukds) (Malalas)
Skin: pale (Pliny. Y. Panegyr. xlviii. 4)

Trajan
Hair: blond (Sieglin 1935. p. 109)

Hadrian
Hair: dark (kuanochaita) (Sibylline Oracle. v. 46b-50)
Eyes: grey (glaukdphthalmos) (Polem. 148. Malalas. Chronogr. 11. 277. 363; Scr. Phys. ii. 51-52)

Antoninus Pius
Eyes: wine colored (Malalas Chronogr 11. 280)

Lucius Verus
Hair: blond (Historia Augusta. Life of Verus. x. 7)

Marcus Aurelius
Skin: shining, and transparent (Julian. Caesars. 317c)

Commodus
Hair: blond (Herodian. i. 12. 5)
Eyes: grey (Malalas. Chronogr. 33)

Didius Julianus
Hair: blond (in a coin inscription he is described as looking like Commodus) (Coins of the Roman Empire, and the British museum. 5. ixix)

Elagabulus
Skin: fair, bright face (Bibliotheca Hagiographica Graeca)

Constantius Chlorus
Hair: fair (Zonaras. Epitome. Historiarum. 12. 31b)

Constantine I
Hair: black (John Mauropous)
Eyes: blue (Polemo of Laodicea. De Physiognomonica)
Skin: ruddy, fair (Euseb. Life of Const; Malalas. Chronogr. 13. 1)

Constantius II
Hair: blond (George Cedrenus. Compendium Historiarum. p. 521)

Jovian
Eyes: blue (Canter, 1928, p. 396)

Valentinian I
Eyes: blue (Amm. Marc. 30. 9. 6)

Theodosius I
Hair: blond (Cedrenus. Compendium Historiarum. p. 552; Aur. Vict. Caes. 48.8)

Arcadius
Skin: swarthy (subnigri) (Philostorgius. xii. 3)

Theodosius II
Hair: golden (Cedrenus. Compendium Historiarum. p. 587)

Anastasius I
Eyes: 1 blue eye, 1 brown eye (Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 69)

Justinian I
Skin: ruddy (Historia Arcana viii. 4ff)

Theodora
hair: black (John Mauropous. Johannis Euchaitarum Metropolitae quae supersunt in cod. Poems. 57, 75, 80, 87)

Heraclius
Eyes: blue (Leo Grammatikos, Hist. i. 47)
Skin: fair (Leo Grammatikos, Hist. i. 47)

Basil II
Eyes: blue (Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 35)

Zoe Porphyrogenita
Hair: golden ( Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 86)
Skin: white (Michael Psellos. Chronographia. 86)

John Malakas was a Syrian chronicler from the 6th century, he's not reliable at all. There are also some wrong interpreations.

[wvwvw]

you wuz not kangz n shiet, nordicist retard :)
It was normal back then when a people was conquered, its population was enslaved, in Italy most of them were Italians. Slaves were captured from all over the empire: Gaul, Hispania, North Africa, Syria, Germany, Britannia, the Balkans, Greece etc. in a society like that slaves didn't last for long.

Slave in the ancient world was a worker, not to be confused with the modern of slave which ancient Greeks called Andrapodon, ie. a sold captive.

Slaves were not sold captives or slaves in the modern sense. it's servitude. They were effectively the same as medieval serfs since serf derives from servus.

Is a professional footballer or basketball player a slave? Both are bought and sold from and to different owners. They were the subject of written legal contracts just like footballers today. What is written today about so-called 'slavery' in ancient times is almost all completely fictitious.

In fact Solon had outlawed slave bondage from 590 BC. From Solon's law it is clear that the common practice was that any Athenian weather citizen or not could sell themselves into service in return for a sum of money. This is equivalent to signing a contract with football player, actor, tv presenter, or writer by means of either themselves or an agent.

Here’s a source where 'slave' has been inserted inappropriately for completely unrelated terms to create a fallacy of slavery in ancient times.

Aeschines, Against Timarchus. 1.10. "paidagwgon" meaning child-trainers/rearers (employed and supervised by the school) falsely translated as "slave attendants of school-boys". No mention of the word slave or anything similar in the original text.

Slavery in the ancient world is a modern day fiction invented to excuse the Anglo-American slave trade. A negro slave was a captive sold and forced to work against his will. A serf or doulos agreed to work for an employer of their own free will. A serf or doulos was not kept in chains like a negro slave but was free to come and go as they pleased. Ancient serfdom was achieved though a mutually and legally agreed and binding contract between both parties the business and the ’client' where the client would work for the business at a set rate and fixed period of time and under strict conditions. This was no more slavery than a footballer playing for a football team or a musician signed up to a record company and paid an advance for a certain number of records which they would pay back out of royalties.

[Smeagol]

Don't know where you got this information (and I'm not going to check anyway)

All of the sources were given so that's your problem.


but it would be curious if they were like this and the iconography overwhelmingly depicted dark people. Were they masochists or something? I trust in my eyes (and I have been to pompeii and many other ancient sites).

Besides the fact that many of the pompeii paintings were copies of Hellenistic Greek ones, those people actually were South Italians. They were descendants of people conquered by Romans, plus probably a lot of foreigners since there are plenty of records detailing large amounts of Greek and Oriental slavery and settlement in Italy during Empire times.

[Smeagol]

John Malakas was a Syrian chronicler from the 6th century, he's not reliable at all. There are also some wrong interpreations.

John Malalas was a Greek from Antioch and certainly had access to sources we don't today. Even if you want to disregard him most of the descriptions still stand.

[wvwvw]

All of the sources were given so that's your problem.



Besides the fact that many of the pompeii paintings were copies of Hellenistic Greek ones, those people actually were South Italians. They were descendants of people conquered by Romans, plus probably a lot of foreigners since there are plenty of records detailing large amounts of Greek and Oriental slavery and settlement in Italy during Empire times.

The Romans were a brunette population with the occasional blonds like Italians today. Like in Ancient times, blonds aren’t uncommon in Southern Italy today even though the bulk of the population is brunette.

Here is a Sicilian who may become the first female president of Italy, Georgia Meloni

https://scn.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Giorgia_Meloni_2014.JPG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Giorgia_Meloni_2014.JPG/1920px-Giorgia_Meloni_2014.JPG

[Scar]

All of the sources were given so that's your problem.


I doubt you read all of them in Latin so you must have gathered the information somewhere.



Besides the fact that many of the pompeii paintings were copies of Hellenistic Greek ones, those people actually were South Italians. They were descendants of people conquered by Romans, plus probably a lot of foreigners since there are plenty of records detailing large amounts of Greek and Oriental slavery and settlement in Italy during Empire times.

Pompeii has been destroyed by the eruption in 79 though, much earlier than any possible foreign intrusion in Italian peninsula, plus people depicted were of Italic descent. And I was talking not only about Pompeii but also other sites.

Anyway this bullshit Romans were Nordics is starting to be debunked if you have read the study OP posted. If we consider that Ancient North Italians were like modern South Italians or South Tuscans and Lombards were Scandinavian-like modern North Italian makes much more sense (specially in the Tuscan case). So much for your bullshit, hehe.
Also, I've read Germania by Tacitus, I think you should read it too, quite revealing reading for a nordicist.

[Peterski]

I'm not a Nordicist. Claiming that the Romans were autosomally similar to Northern-Central Italians is not Nordicism, because modern Northern Italians are not autosomally Nordic. LOL.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

John Malalas was a Greek from Antioch and certainly had access to sources we don't today. Even if you want to disregard him most of the descriptions still stand.

No, because nordicists lacking ancient history, have to claim others'. Again, interpretations are wrong in that post.

[Smeagol]

The Romans were a brunette population with the occasional blonds like today. Like Italians are today. Like in Ancient times, blonds aren’t uncommon in Southern Italy today even though the bulk of the population is brunette.

Here is a Sicilian who may become the first female president of Italy, Georgia Meloni

https://scn.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Giorgia_Meloni_2014.JPG

Obviously they weren't predominantly blond, no population even in North Europe is. Actual Romans weren't swarthy dagos though either.

[Scar]

The Romans were a brunette population with the occasional blonds like Italians today. Like in Ancient times, blonds aren’t uncommon in Southern Italy today even though the bulk of the population is brunette.

No. Ancient Romans were almost fully brunette, quite different from modern day North Italians and even South Italians. As I explained previously the gap between North Europe and South Europe was much stronger in the past. Early Greeks and Romans belonged almost without exception to the mediterranean race.

[Smeagol]

No, because nordicists lacking ancient history, have to claim others'. Again, interpretations are wrong in that post.

How is this a response? If something's wrong then prove it.

[wvwvw]

Obviously they weren't predominantly blond, no population even in North Europe is. Actual Romans weren't swarthy dagoes though either.

Neither are modern Italians swarthy dagos.

[wvwvw]

John Malalas was a Greek from Antioch and certainly had access to sources we don't today. Even if you want to disregard him most of the descriptions still stand.

Just because he lived in Syria doesn’t mean he was Syrian of course. A significant number of ethnic Greeks lived in Syria and they lived their own quarters of the city. They were even called by their tribal names.

[Smeagol]

Pompeii has been destroyed by the eruption in 79 though, much earlier than any possible foreign intrusion in Italian peninsula

No, not at all, this was the basically height of the Empire


plus people depicted were of Italic descent. And I was talking not only about Pompeii but also other sites.

Many of those painting were copies of Hellenistic Greek works and pretty much all the sites you're talking about are South Italian which was conquered territory. And you don't know for sure who the people depicted are ethnically.


Anyway this bullshit Romans were Nordics is starting to be debunked if you have read the study OP posted.

Strawman, nobody is claiming they were Nordic.


If we consider that Ancient North Italians were like modern South Italians

And where does this come from? Clicking on Token's link I can only see the abstract which doesn't mention that, but a few samples of DNA from late Roman North Italy hardly proves anything one way or the other.

[Scar]

No, not at all, this was the basically height of the Empire


The Empire was still young at that time (it was founded by Octavian less than one century before), there was no available time to a massive change of population. Also, the local population was mostly Italic. If they were copying the Greeks is debatable, may be and may not be. But would be strange they depicting themselves as swarthy people if they were mostly light pigmented. Specially considering many people depicted belonged to the aristocracy.


And where does this come from? Clicking on Token's link I can only see the abstract which doesn't mention that, but a few samples of DNA from late Roman North Italy hardly proves anything one way or the other.


I'm not sure if the link is still working, but if you read the study you can see that ancient inhabitants of North Italy were betwenn South Italians and South Tuscans. They may be atypical individuals, we don't know. But the fact that also individuals who were Scandinavian-like were present (the Lombards) reinforces my argument of North Italians being Germanic admixed instead of South Italians being descendants of slaves. Btw, North Italians aren't even that light and South Italians not that dark either, so it doesn't matter who resembles most the Romans, they were overwhelmingly similar to modern Italians.

[ADonkeyBrain]

Based on Davidski's Global25, closest distances

https://pastebin.com/xKdr5pJb

Distances themselves don't tell you everything of course but even in some quick modelling I tried to do, ancient Balkan-like ancestry seems to go (Bergamo > Tuscany ~) Albania > Greece > Romania ~ Bulgaria ~ Macedonia ~ Serbia ~ Montenegro > South Italy ~ Sicily ~ Malta*** > Bosnia ~ Croatia. This is obviously subject to change with every single piece of data and better elaboration of the ancient population structure, though the overall levels seems sane to me, at least for the Balkans where the samples are actually from. We still need more samples, especially from Italy itself.

Basically the later Balkans seem to have experienced an increase in steppe and some separate Caucasus/Iran and a decrease in EEF(-WHG), with an overall north-south cline [the clinal exception being Albanians, who despite being more geographically northern, seem to have somewhat lower though clearly existent northeast input than even Greeks which makes sense if you understand they were a marginal(ized) half-Romanized population that underwent massive demographic expansion towards the later middle ages from north, where they're still less admixed, to south].

Modern Iberia itself if you check above actually seems slightly closer to Balkan_BA than Iberia_BA which seems to point towards the exact similar increase of steppe and separate Caucasus-Iran and a decrease in the local EEF-WHG since those Bronze Age Iberian samples. Italy needs some more sampling too since I have some suspicions there has been further near eastern and northern admixture there, as well, even in the north (though likely more limited there combined) somewhere along the line between the early IE Bronze Age input and the close of the middle ages (see the reply below too).

From what we have so far, imo, modern Southern Europe = ancient Southern Europe + extra northern + extra near eastern ancestry, in varying amounts and depending on the location. Ancient Southern Europe overall seems like EEF-heavy playground (so I agree with Scar's comment in a general sense) but we'll see in due time more clearly.

Similar changes seem to have happened in Northern Europe as well since the Late Bronze Age, with e.g. the post-Corded Ware resurgent WHG decreasing quite a bit since then and EEF increasing. You can see it in Welzin/Tollense, late Baltic_BA etc. During the general period of the study with the general upheavals and depopulations in Europe, some areas in Central-Northern Europe (like the later West Slavic speaking area, one wonders if we'll ever see those Wielbark and Przeworsk samples too) seem to have changed even more dramatically in population. I think people should generally come to terms with the fact that not a single area looks like it remained particularly static and every modern population is the result of admixture between usually relatively neighboring ones. Even the modern Balts have similar distances to Baltic_BA. Also this study doesn't exactly give you a panoramic view of North Italy at the time, let alone the whole period from the Bronze Age to the early middle ages. It's probably wise not to get into wild theories about what happened based or who is who on such sparse sampling in a study that was more about illuminating a specific historical event (and rightly not trying to work backwards from genetics to 'ethnicity', either) especially when the genomes haven't even been published.

Another thing worth nothing is that modern-day European neighbors are more closely related to each other than to Bronze-Iron Age ancient populations on average and all Europeans are generally closer to each other as a whole so keep things a bit in perspective.

***The distances in the South Italian-Sicilian area seem a bit misleading about 'actual' ancestry when it comes these samples. There seems to be potential about equal further near eastern and northwestern ancestry balancing things out, so to speak, but I'd really like to see samples from the specific locations because this is basically just guesswork at the end of the day.


We have Early Bronze Age Bell Beaker samples from North Italy. They were R1b and autosomally similar to modern North Italians.

The Beakers seem to be more EEF-WHG and less steppe/Iran-Caucasus overall. Depends on the region too I suppose. The Bergamo sample seems to have changed towards a Balkan direction, though the Beakers are still quite close, about the same distance as the southern Balkans have to the ancient BA-IA samples.

https://pastebin.com/8qZ3zhKb

First is Bergamo, second is NItaly Beaker.

I'll repeat that we need waaaaay more sampling though.

[Smeagol]

If they were copying the Greeks is debatable, may be and may not be. But would be strange they depicting themselves as swarthy people if they were mostly light pigmented.

I wasn't saying they were copying the Greeks in depicting their own people, but that many of the frescoes were literally just copies of original paintings done by Greeks. I read it in Will Durant's book The Life of Greece.

[Scar]

I wasn't saying they were copying the Greeks in depicting their own people, but that many of the frescoes were literally just copies of original paintings done by Greeks. I read it in Will Durant's book The Life of Greece.

That's possible. But Will Durant wasn't a professional Latinist or Hellenist and he is an outdated source.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

How is this a response? If something's wrong then prove it.

Words in Greek and Latin could have many different meanings and the ancients had a very different way to look at colors. For example there's no word for "blond" in ancient Greek, "xanthos" was used for colors from red to green or white to red, basically any hair lighter than black was xanthos, it was even used for horses, wine, roasted pigeons, fragrances, cities, rivers and horses. Leukos indicates the snow, the water, the sun, metal surfaces, as an adjective also has the meaning of shiny, gleaming, and clear. Glaukos as well could refer to gray, blue and sometimes yellow or brown, and was connected to an impression of brightness, it also describes the willow, the olive tree and the sedge (a herbaceous plant). Caeruleus is relevant to the sea, the sky, the rivers or the sea and the river gods, dark-colored, dark blue, dark green, cerulean blue, dark, black things.

[wvwvw]

Words in Greek and Latin could have many different meanings and the ancients had a very different way to look at colors. For example there's no word for "blond" in ancient Greek, "xanthos" was used for colors from red to green or white to red, basically any hair lighter than black was xanthos, it was even used for horses, wine, roasted pigeons, fragrances, cities, rivers and horses. Leukos indicates the snow, the water, the sun, metal surfaces, as an adjective also has the meaning of shiny, gleaming, and clear. Glaukos as well could refer to gray, blue and sometimes yellow or brown, and was connected to an impression of brightness, it also describes the willow, the olive tree and the sedge (a herbaceous plant). Caeruleus is relevant to the sea, the sky, the rivers or the sea and the river gods, dark-colored, dark blue, dark green, cerulean blue, dark, black things.

Where did you hear that? Xanthos meant golden haired in Ancient Greek, although it had other meanings as well depending on the context as xanthos was not only used to describe hair color. But as far as hair was concerned it meant golden haired.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/xantho-

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ξανθός

[Vid Flumina]

The position on a plot of two modern Western Piedmontese, they seem too western shifted to be a simple two-way mix of Scandinavians and Southern Italians. They cluster just east of Iberians, like the only Roman age sample from Collegno later excluded from the paper:

https://i.imgur.com/WUrVYlr.png

https://s18.postimg.org/z5h1muw47/Screen_Hunter_2075_Nov._22_09.56.jpg

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Where did you hear that? Xanthos meant golden haired in Ancient Greek, although it had other meanings as well depending on the context as xanthos was not only used to describe hair color. But as far as hair was concerned it meant golden haired.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/xantho-

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ξανθός

There was no fixed meaning of "golden-haired" for xanthos, like I said, used for hair it could mean brown, auburn, chestnut or basically any shade ligther than dark hair. Aristophanes (Acharnians, 1047) uses xanthizo which means "to turn brown" by means of roasting.

[wvwvw]

There was no fixed meaning of "golden-haired" for xanthos, like I said, used for hair it could mean brown, auburn, chestnut or basically any shade ligther than dark hair. Aristophanes (Acharnians, 1047) uses xanthizo which means "to turn brown" by means of roasting.

For auburn and red hair hair they said Pyrros, reddish-gold like the corn. Ancient Greeks often dyed their hair blond.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

For auburn and red hair hair they said Pyrros, reddish-gold like the corn. Ancient Greeks often dyed their hair blond.

They were synonyms, what I was trying to explain is that xanthos does not refer exclusively to blond hair but also to other darker shades like chestnut and brown.

[ADonkeyBrain]

The position on a plot of two modern Western Piedmontese, they seem too western shifted to be a simple two-way mix of Scandinavians and Southern Italians. They cluster just east of Iberians, like the only Roman age sample from Collegno later excluded from the paper:

Sorry, isn't that sample (labelled FN_2 in the early stuff your pic comes from) just the one labeled CL94 in the study? They seem to occupy the same position in the same PCA, at least. If it's actually that one and not a "Roman" one that just looks similar, it looks quasi-French or quasi-extreme northwest Italian in their transformed PCA (but you can barely tell with their labels) and according to their isotope analysis wasn't even local to Collegno itself, so who knows.

Litvin should probably recheck and tell us before throwing everything he can think of together. :p

[Token]

Do you reckon all these blue dots were "local North Italians" as well? (hint: they plot with modern scandos..)

https://i.imgur.com/KQC3I5z.png


You also have 2 iberian-like individuals and a central european within that range.

These samples were described in the paper as being from later generations of settlers, postdating by a large period of time the first Lombard settlement. Despite their local signatures, they had distinctive northern burials and were clearly of predominant foreign origin considering their huge deviation from the Italian cluster. The five southern samples, on the other hand, were assigned to Italy by PAA, PCA and strontium analysis. Also, they were buried separately and still showed a quite high genetic homogeneity, so unless you believe in miracles, that it just happens that we got Jewish samples for some unknown reason like Peterski suggests, they were obviously native North Italians. Going by haplogroup frequency and PCA relative distances, i estimate a 20-30% population turnover in Northern Italy with a west-east cline. I'm waiting for some globe25 nMonte models.

[Peterski]

Going by haplogroup frequency and PCA relative distances, i estimate a 20-30% population turnover in Northern Italy with a west-east cline.

There is less of Germanic Y-DNA in Italy (even if you include all of I-M223 as Germanic, as this map below does, but which is most likely a wrong approach - only some subclades of I-M223 are Germanic):

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=46478

https://s32.postimg.org/acvuzf9np/13709823_690252044462447_8329495196490145252_n.jpg

[Vid Flumina]

These samples were described in the paper as being from later generations of settlers, postdating by a large period of time the first Lombard settlement. Despite their local signatures, they had distinctive northern burials and were clearly of predominant foreign origin considering their huge deviation from the Italian cluster. The five southern samples, on the other hand, were assigned to Italy by PAA, PCA and strontium analysis. Also, they were buried separately and still showed a quite high genetic homogeneity, so unless you believe in miracles, that it just happens that we got Jewish samples for some unknown reason like Peterski suggests, they were obviously native North Italians. Going by haplogroup frequency and PCA relative distances, i estimate a 20-30% population turnover in Northern Italy with a west-east cline. I'm waiting for some globe25 nMonte models.

I can't find in the study where this is stated. Can you quote the passage?

Even in the earliest phase (1A: 570-610) all but one - namely CL93 - of the Nords come up as "local" as per their isotope ratios.

But talking about miracles: what do you make of those same Southcentral Italian types in Hungary, several hundreds km from Collegno, despite the two areas having vastly different history and background?

[Peterski]

But talking about miracles: what do you make of those same Southcentral Italian types in Hungary, several hundreds km from Collegno, despite the two areas having vastly different history and background?

Roman settlers?

[Vid Flumina]

Roman settlers?

So you are implying a large scale replacement of the local indigenous population in both Pannonia and Cisalpine Gaul at some point during the empire?

[Rethel]

What hgs they had?

[Peterski]

So you are implying a large scale replacement of the local indigenous population in both Pannonia and Cisalpine Gaul at some point during the empire?

Of course not. Which is why some of Pannonian samples from Szolad plot with Greeks (SZ19 and SZ40):

https://i.imgur.com/kA73p4K.png

[Berlko2]

The position on a plot of two modern Western Piedmontese, they seem too western shifted to be a simple two-way mix of Scandinavians and Southern Italians. They cluster just east of Iberians, like the only Roman age sample from Collegno later excluded from the paper:

https://i.imgur.com/WUrVYlr.png

https://s18.postimg.org/z5h1muw47/Screen_Hunter_2075_Nov._22_09.56.jpg

Are there any more Cuneo examples? My family comes from Western Cuneo. I thought they would plot with/near France and not just east of Iberia.

[Aren]

These samples were described in the paper as being from later generations of settlers, postdating by a large period of time the first Lombard settlement. Despite their local signatures, they had distinctive northern burials and were clearly of predominant foreign origin considering their huge deviation from the Italian cluster. The five southern samples, on the other hand, were assigned to Italy by PAA, PCA and strontium analysis. Also, they were buried separately and still showed a quite high genetic homogeneity, so unless you believe in miracles, that it just happens that we got Jewish samples for some unknown reason like Peterski suggests, they were obviously native North Italians. Going by haplogroup frequency and PCA relative distances, i estimate a 20-30% population turnover in Northern Italy with a west-east cline. I'm waiting for some globe25 nMonte models.

Better wait for Iron Age(La Tene) samples from northern Italy before making assumptions, but a lot points to cisalpine Gauls being more Tuscan-like considering the rather low Steppe input in the BB from northern Italy. The highest scoring Steppe individual plots with modern day north Italians but it's more likely that after mixing with Remedello-like farmers it got diluted to more like modern day Tuscans.

[Token]

Better wait for Iron Age(La Tene) samples from northern Italy before making assumptions, but a lot points to cisalpine Gauls being more Tuscan-like considering the rather low Steppe input in the BB from northern Italy. The highest scoring Steppe individual plots with modern day north Italians but it's more likely that after mixing with Remedello-like farmers it got diluted to more like modern day Tuscans.

Exactly, the BB sample from Northern Italy was the checkmate for me. It was dated to Copper-EB age, had a good amount of steppe, so he is presumably a good representantive of the population that first introduced steppe ancestry to Italy. Yet, it still had less Yamnaya than modern Northern Italians, even while possessing considerably less LBK-EN like ancestry which, combined with the dating, suggests that he wasn't considerably mixed, if at all, with the locals. It is quite clear that some shit happened after the Bronze Age, and the northeast to northwest steppe cline corresponds pretty well to the first movements of the Longobards in the peninsula. Lets wait for Iron Age samples though.

[Vid Flumina]

Are there any more Cuneo examples? My family comes from Western Cuneo. I thought they would plot with/near France and not just east of Iberia.

I'm not aware of any French-plotting Italian population, the closest would be Aostans I believe somewhat approaching Provençals/Southernmost French.

There might be areas of Western Piedmont (e.g. Canavese/Alta Valsusa) plotting closer to France than those two samples from Cuneo, but I highly doubt as much as Aostans.

[Aren]

I'm not aware of any French-plotting Italian population, the closest would be Aostans I believe somewhat approaching Provençals/Southernmost French.

There might be areas of Western Piedmont (e.g. Canavese/Alta Valsusa) plotting closer to France than those two samples from Cuneo, but I highly doubt as much as Aostans.

Well it's pretty expected no? I don't know much about the history of the Aosta valley but if the natives are(were?) French speakers then it makes sense. The Aosta sample I've seen on other forums is quite northern shifted but still somewhat distinct from the French.

[Berlko2]

I'm not aware of any French-plotting Italian population, the closest would be Aostans I believe somewhat approaching Provençals/Southernmost French.

There might be areas of Western Piedmont (e.g. Canavese/Alta Valsusa) plotting closer to France than those two samples from Cuneo, but I highly doubt as much as Aostans.

Yeah, unfortunaly there aren't many samples to compare.

My great-grandmother was from the area around Tortona, where I've read there was a Lombard settlement. She was very very nordic looking (blue eyes, blonde hair, her nose, etc.) and she had a surname of Lombard noblemen origin. I guess she must've been descended from Lombards, it makes a lot of sense.

[Vid Flumina]

Yeah, unfortunaly there aren't many samples to compare.

My great-grandmother was from the area around Tortona, where I've read there was a Lombard settlement. She was very very nordic looking (blue eyes, blonde hair, her nose, etc.) and she had a surname of Lombard noblemen origin. I guess she must've been descended from Lombards, it makes a lot of sense.

Don't know about your family but as a general rule from the results I've seen so far, the more you move toward the center of the Po Valley the more southern european the population will get.
I've got results from a half Cuneese half Pavese (from Pavia, which is near Tortona), he is significantly pulled south toward Lombardy and Liguria compared to the two Cuneese samples I have. Alessandria is probably the southernmost plotting province of Piedmont.

[Kelmendasi]

Interesting to see that 2 Longobard samples were E1b1b with one being E-V13 and the other being E-V22 which is really interesting. Are these samples actual Germanic Longobards or natives?

[Rethel]

Interesting to see that 2 Longobard samples were E1b1b with one being E-V13 and the other being E-V22 which is really interesting. Are these samples actual Germanic Longobards or natives?

Where are these results?

[Kelmendasi]

Where are these results?
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=37.17565136650036%2C16.75930023749993&z=5, the E-V13 sample is from Collegno in NW Italy and the E-V22 sample is from Szolad in Hungary

[Rethel]

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=37.17565136650036%2C16.75930023749993&z=5, the E-V13 sample is from Collegno in NW Italy and the E-V22 sample is from Szolad in Hungary

So I doubt if they are original scandian Longobards.
They had to be absorbed underway. Maybe former slaves or something.

[Kelmendasi]

So I doubt if they are original scandian Longobards.
They had to be absorbed underway. Maybe former slaves or something.
The V13 guy from Italy was probably a native of Italy whilst im not sure about the E-V22 guy from Hungary

[Rethel]

The V13 guy from Italy was probably a native of Italy whilst im not sure about the E-V22 guy from Hungary

Some probability of course there is, as E is also in Sciandia in small amounts.
But the probability, that just such person would be find, is small. Very small :)

[Kelmendasi]

Some probability of course there is, as E is also in Sciandia in small amounts.
But the probability, that just such person would be find, is small. Very small :)
I am assuming that the E-V13 guy is a native Italian as the people from Collengo were Tuscan like and not Germanic