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StonyArabia
02-24-2018, 12:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH9UhfRKAOc

Most of the Turkic tribes would have been Sinized, if it was not for the Arab defeat of the Chinese which Islamized Central Asia since then. So Most Turks would have become part of Chinese civilization. If the Arabs lost, most Central Asia would have become part of the Sinic civilization. It would have been interesting. Interesting also the Turks backstap the Chinese.

Joso
02-24-2018, 12:45 AM
Interesting.

Egyptian
02-24-2018, 01:05 AM
That's one useful video, didn't know about the clash between 2 empires.. I guess the chinese has the edge until the turks betrayed them while Arabs had the balls to go deeper in central asia :lol:

I guess Levantine and Egypt keept watching :lol:

Marmara
02-24-2018, 01:12 AM
Karluks later converted to Islam, founded first ever Muslim Turkic khaganate (Karakhanids).

StonyArabia
02-24-2018, 03:59 AM
That's one useful video, didn't know about the clash between 2 empires.. I guess the chinese has the edge until the turks betrayed them while Arabs had the balls to go deeper in central asia :lol:

I guess Levantine and Egypt keept watching :lol:

The Arabians were like wild fire, nothing was going to stop them this why they created a two very large empires the Ummyads and later the Abbassids. What is interesting many of the Arabian troops would often come from Iraq. However during the conquest of Spain, there was a large amount of Egyptians who also joined in, although they were lead by Yemenites. However the battle of Talas is important in Central Asia because if the Arabs had won, central Asia would have all become Sinized. It would be interesting what the Turks had they not been Islamized could have become of them.

Egyptian
02-24-2018, 10:01 AM
The Arabians were like wild fire, nothing was going to stop them this why they created a two very large empires the Ummyads and later the Abbassids. What is interesting many of the Arabian troops would often come from Iraq. However during the conquest of Spain, there was a large amount of Egyptians who also joined in, although they were lead by Yemenites. However the battle of Talas is important in Central Asia because if the Arabs had won, central Asia would have all become Sinized. It would be interesting what the Turks had they not been Islamized could have become of them.

Don't think Egyptian joined the conquest of Iberia.. however I guess Alexandria had received many of Muslims refugees and jews also after spainards took over Andalus.

Arabs are Tough warriors to be honest.

Robocop
02-24-2018, 10:04 AM
The only ones who stopped spreading of Arabic virus (from 622 AD forward) were Byzantine Empire and Chinese.

Salute both to Byzantines and Chinese.

P.S. No offence to any Arab here when I wrote "Arabic virus", I'm not sayin this to ppl, but how else to call that spreading of Arabs from 622 AD till today, someone had to stop them, and someone did.

Pahli
02-24-2018, 10:13 AM
If the Chinese would have won, Central Asia would have been a much better place, they were much more tolerant both religiously but also cultural in comparison to the Arabs back then

Robocop
02-24-2018, 10:24 AM
If the Chinese would have won, Central Asia would have been a much better place, they were much more tolerant both religiously but also cultural in comparison to the Arabs back then

But at least Chinese stopped Arabs in their attempt to ever step foot on Chinese soil. Overall Chinese did stop Arab advance.

Bobby Martnen
02-24-2018, 10:31 AM
Interesting.

Pahli
02-24-2018, 10:33 AM
But at least Chinese stopped Arabs in their attempt to ever step foot on Chinese soil. Overall Chinese did stop Arab advance.

Well, they would have succeeded if the Turks didn't betray them lol

Bobby Martnen
02-24-2018, 10:34 AM
Well, they would have succeeded if the Turks didn't betray them lol

Truth.

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 10:44 AM
That's one useful video, didn't know about the clash between 2 empires.. I guess the chinese has the edge until the turks betrayed them while Arabs had the balls to go deeper in central asia :lol:

I guess Levantine and Egypt keept watching :lol:

Turks never betrayed anyone, we were already enemies with them because they were trying to be power in Central Asia and controle us, we never allowed it. Betraying is smth idiosyncrasy between Araps.

Gediminas
02-24-2018, 10:56 AM
The Tang were in decline around this time, even if they would have won at Talas, they wouldnt have held onto Central Asia for very long. After that, that area was certain to either fall to the Arabs, or worse, to the Tibetans, who at this point were basically horse barbarians.

Egyptian
02-24-2018, 11:10 AM
Turks never betrayed anyone, we were already enemies with them because they were trying to be power in Central Asia and controle us, we never allowed it. Betraying is smth idiosyncrasy between Araps.

The video says the opposite :lol:

and plus, Turks in Egypt used to kill each others to get in power, mamluks,ottomans etc.:confused:

Yaglakar
02-24-2018, 11:14 AM
This thread is such gross misrepresentation of historical events. If Tang dynasty won, nothing would have significantly changed. It is a battle for the control of trade routes. Plus nothing at that point would have been sinified - everything beyond the great wall and Gansu corridor were protectorates - they spoke Mongolic, Tibetan, Tocharian or Saka languages. A few years after the battle, there was the An Lushan Rebellion in which the rising Uighur Khaganate got involved assisting Tang China. Thereafter Tang Dynasty started paying tribute to the Khaganate, as did other dynasties to earlier Turkic Khaganates. In 751 (Battle of Talas) nearly all Turkic tribes were located north of the conflict.

Map of Eastern Hemisphere 700 AD

http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_700ad.jpg

Map of Eastern Hemisphere 800 AD

http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_800ad.jpg

Dandelion
02-24-2018, 11:19 AM
Zhaoyun versus Nabatea, titan clashes.

Yaglakar
02-24-2018, 11:23 AM
The only ones who stopped spreading of Arabic virus (from 622 AD forward) were Byzantine Empire and Chinese.

Salute both to Byzantines and Chinese.

P.S. No offence to any Arab here when I wrote "Arabic virus", I'm not sayin this to ppl, but how else to call that spreading of Arabs from 622 AD till today, someone had to stop them, and someone did.

Hey dimwit! Have you heard of Turkic Khazars and Turkic Türgesh who saved your "Christendom" by repelling Umayyad and Abbasid onslaught?

Böri
02-24-2018, 11:29 AM
It was a border clash without major change. It was like a prestige war between the two major world powers of their time. Arab victory didn't bring them more lands, and Chinese defeat didn't bring end of Tang. Turks have been victorious since influence on Iranic native elements were seized by Turks in south Central Asia. Arabs consolidated their position in eastern Iranic holdings. Chinese were expelled from the region.
Karluks were the ancestors of Uzbeks and Uighurs btw. The Oğuz were living modern southwest Kazakhstan back then. Free from Chinese or Arabic/Iranian domination. They left Western Mongolian steppes and Altay region after 1st Turkic khaganate was brought down by Tang, and immigration to west. That happened some 80 years before Talas Battle.
Karluks werent in the Chinese army, second story is right. They showed up later and attacked Tang army from the flank. The Korean marshall of Chinese army must have been shocked.

Yaglakar
02-24-2018, 11:48 AM
It was a border clash without major change. It was like a prestige war between the two major world powers of their time. Arab victory didn't bring them more lands, and Chinese defeat didn't bring end of Tang. Turks have been victorious since influence on Iranic native elements were seized by Turks in south Central Asia. Arabs consolidated their position in eastern Iranic holdings. Chinese were expelled from the region.
Karluks were the ancestors of Uzbeks and Uighurs btw. The Oğuz were living modern southwest Kazakhstan back then. Free from Chinese or Arabic/Iranian domination.
Karluks werent in the Chinese army, second story is right. They showed up later and attacked Tang army from the flank. The Korean marshall of Chinese army must have been shocked.

Karluks are only partial ancestors of Uyghurs and Uzbeks.

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 11:50 AM
The video says the opposite :lol:

and plus, Turks in Egypt used to kill each others to get in power, mamluks,ottomans etc.:confused:

i don’t care what the video says, i look at history and see that we never became friends with Chinese people so we never betrayed them. Also if someone do smth wrong or less, you have to make them stop even if they have same ancestors with you. It is not betraying as well

Böri
02-24-2018, 11:52 AM
Karluks are only partial ancestors of Uyghurs and Uzbeks.

Southeastern Turkic people and languages are Karluk. That covers Uighurs and Uzbeks. Karluks were among first Turkic people to interact with Iranians and Arabs. In history, the very first Turkic converts to Islam might been Karluk individuals. That's my guess.


Karluks later converted to Islam, founded first ever Muslim Turkic khaganate (Karakhanids).

First officially were Idel Bulgars (922 AD), ancestors of Tatarstan which is now in middle of Russia. that was some decades before Karakhanids.

Egyptian
02-24-2018, 12:00 PM
i don’t care what the video says, i look at history and see that we never became friends with Chinese people so we never betrayed them. Also if someone do smth wrong or less, you have to make them stop even if they have same ancestors with you. It is not betraying as well

Friends or no that doesn't change the fact that both agreed not to attack eachothers, but turks troops attacked them.

It's something like WWII between Russians and Germans, Germans betrayed the deal and attacked the russkies.

Böri
02-24-2018, 12:03 PM
It's something like WWII between Russians and Germans, Germans betrayed the deal and attacked the russkies.

Betrayal story is bs. Karluks were a separate, third army who watchfully waited, later probably Arabs saw that Tang army was strong with good weapons and made deal with Karluks. After first charge, Chinese army was already routed. Your example is not well placed since Germans ultimately lost where as Karluks not only won the battle but through centuries they assimilated Transoxiania which became Uzbekistan.

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 12:04 PM
Friends or no that doesn't change the fact that both agreed not to attack eachothers, but turks troops attacked them.

It's something like WWII between Russians and Germans, Germans betrayed the deal and attacked the russkies.

eem, when we had such a deal with them? also even if we had, they attacked us all the time without any doubt so we needed to sit and watch their victory hm really wisely lol

Yaglakar
02-24-2018, 12:11 PM
Southeastern Turkic people and languages are Karluk. That covers Uighurs and Uzbeks. Karluks were among first Turkic people to interact with Iranians and Arabs. In history, the very first Turkic converts to Islam might been Karluk individuals. That's my guess.



First officially were Idel Bulgars (922 AD), ancestors of Tatarstan which is now in middle of Russia. that was some decades before Karakhanids.

Then you should have specified that you are talking about the Türki language and not ancestors. Because among Karluks, there were Chigils and Yaghma (Toquz Oghuz) who joined them after the collapse of Uighur Kaghanate. These three founded the Karakhanid state. Uighurs/Toquz Oghuz also migrated to Xinjiang and mixed with Tocharians. Karluks also mixed with Sogdians in Sogdiana in what is today Uzbekistan.

Pahli
02-24-2018, 12:16 PM
Lol at the logic behind the betrayal of the Chinese army, Turks were constantly raiding them, then the Chinese conquer the Gökturks and people whine over it, wtf xD

Böri
02-24-2018, 12:20 PM
The position of Oghuz Turks during that era (ancestors of people who founded Turkey, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan):
Migration from east to west:

https://i.hizliresim.com/qGdOm5.png

I wish they had gone more west to Pontic-Caspian steppe and they wanted to but Khazar Khagans didn't allow. They told Oghuz you stay there. And maybe the result was better this way xD Later the Seljuk empire was founded there, around Aral and Caspian too in 1040s. And Oghuz migrated south, then westwards through Iran. It was not immigration but military social expansion.

Robocop
02-24-2018, 12:29 PM
Turks never betrayed anyone, we were already enemies with them because they were trying to be power in Central Asia and controle us, we never allowed it. Betraying is smth idiosyncrasy between Araps.

Please dont take this in wrong way but you turkic ppl betrayed yourself when you adopted Islam.

It is true Chinese wanted to dominate central Asia, but al least they never betrayed who they are and managed to defend China AND THEIR CULTURE from Islam, or else they would have Mosques all over Chinese wall.

Robocop
02-24-2018, 12:37 PM
Hey dimwit! Have you heard of Turkic Khazars and Turkic Türgesh who saved your "Christendom" by repelling Umayyad and Abbasid onslaught?

Yes I did but even without your help Arabs couldnt go against Greek fire whenever they would attack Byzantines/Constantinople.

You didnt save anythin, Byzantine Enmpire was shield of Europe for 1000 years.

And most advanced human society for 1000 years.

Until you destroyed it and invade Europe, that is the only thing you did and we dont forget, and we will never forget Christian HOLY CITY Constantinople.

Cheers :)

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 12:39 PM
Please dont take this in wrong way but you turkic ppl betrayed yourself when you adopted Islam.

It is true Chinese wanted to dominate central Asia, but al least they never betrayed who they are and managed to defend China AND THEIR CULTURE from Islam, or else they would have Mosques all over Chinese wall.

We didn’t lose anything. We still have our Töre and culture and they are active in our lifes. with this way, Europeans betrayed themselves as well when they decided to convert Christianity

Robocop
02-24-2018, 12:43 PM
We didn’t lose anything. We still have our Töre and culture and they are active in our lifes. with this way, Europeans betrayed themselves as well when they decided to convert Christianity

Not true. Christianity from start became european religion, nevermind it started in Judea.

The main characters of Christianity (to even survive) were europeans, and the one who made everything possible was Constantine in 313 AD.

So you cannot make analogy about this.

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 12:54 PM
Not true. Christianity from start became european religion, nevermind it started in Judea.

The main characters of Christianity (to even survive) were europeans, and the one who made everything possible was Constantine in 313 AD.

So you cannot make analogy about this.

but this is your opinion, not a fact. For example i don’t agree with you cause European history doesn’t have any connection with Christianity in the beginning. Turks don’t have with Islam as well but Tengrism didn’t have anything against what we believe today, there is only one god, people who sent by God, the power of God, believe to other side (Hell and Heaven) etc we always had that beliefs before Islam so it didn’t change us more than how Christianity changed Europeans

Kelmendasi
02-24-2018, 12:56 PM
but this is your opinion, not a fact. For example i don’t agree with you cause European history doesn’t have any connection with Christianity in the beginning. Turks don’t have with Islam as well but Tengrism didn’t have anything against what we believe today, there is only one god, people who sent by God, the power of God, believe to other side (Hell and Heaven) etc we always had that beliefs before Islam so it didn’t change us more than how Christianity changed Europeans
But Europeans had their own pagan beliefs as well

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 12:58 PM
But Europeans had their own pagan beliefs as well

I didn’t say that they didn’t have :d?

Kelmendasi
02-24-2018, 01:01 PM
I didn’t say that they didn’t have :d?
What did you mean by this then "we always had that beliefs before Islam so it didn’t change us more than how Christianity changed Europeans"?

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 01:05 PM
What did you mean by this then "we always had that beliefs before Islam so it didn’t change us more than how Christianity changed Europeans"?

Tengrism was similar what we believe today, we had same beliefs in Tengrism as well

Kelmendasi
02-24-2018, 01:07 PM
Tengrism was similar what we believe today, we had same beliefs in Tengrism as well
How? You believe in Islam which is an Abrahamic religion unlike Tengrism

Yaglakar
02-24-2018, 01:09 PM
Yes I did but even without your help Arabs couldnt go against Greek fire whenever they would attack Byzantines/Constantinople.

You didnt save anythin, Byzantine Enmpire was shield of Europe for 1000 years.

And most advanced human society for 1000 years.

Until you destroyed it and invade Europe, that is the only thing you did and we dont forget, and we will never forget Christian HOLY CITY Constantinople.

Cheers :)

What you fail tounderstand is that without Khazars and other Turkic tribes in inner Asia, declining Byzantines would have to face powerful Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates in a single front war. Constatinople would have fallen much earlier than 1453. And who knows Croatia would have been Muslim today. What is certain though is that Muslims would crossed the Caucasus and carved their pass towards Eastern Europe. Your Eastern Slavic brothers who were at very early stages of state development would be undoubtedly engulfed by this expansion, and a large portion of Eastern Slavs would have been Muslim today. :) Also don't forget that Oghuz Turks brought with them reformed Islam (Turko-Persian Tradition).

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 01:11 PM
How? You believe in Islam which is an Abrahamic religion unlike Tengrism

Their mentalities are almost same even if they have different origins

Egyptian
02-24-2018, 01:13 PM
Robocop
there is connection between Islam and what turkic people have achieved today, before Islam they were just tribes with kinda no civilization anyhow, after Islam they built great empire which conquered europe after that.

now tell me more about the dark age of europe which the church controlled over everything, and tell me why secular states in europe are the most advanced than orthodox or catholic states?

Egyptian
02-24-2018, 01:15 PM
t Oghuz Turks brought with them reformed Islam (Turko-Persian Tradition).

:lol:
suffism you mean

Böri
02-24-2018, 01:16 PM
Yes I did but even without your help Arabs couldnt go against Greek fire whenever they would attack Byzantines/Constantinople.

You didnt save anythin, Byzantine Enmpire was shield of Europe for 1000 years.

And most advanced human society for 1000 years.

Until you destroyed it and invade Europe, that is the only thing you did and we dont forget, and we will never forget Christian HOLY CITY Constantinople.

Cheers :)

You joking right? xD
Turks took a small useless city in 1453.
Constantinople and Byzantium were destroyed, looted of all her wealth and gang raped in 1204 by Western Catholic Europeans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NIM8dqXA-s

All the wealth of Venice had and still has just thievings from Istanbul. Turks were second conquerors. Byzantium was already killed in 1204

Yaglakar
02-24-2018, 01:35 PM
Robocop
there is connection between Islam and what turkic people have achieved today, before Islam they were just tribes with kinda no civilization anyhow, after Islam they built great empire which conquered europe after that.

now tell me more about the dark age of europe which the church controlled over everything, and tell me why secular states in europe are the most advanced than orthodox or catholic states?

What are you talking about? :) Turkic people had multiple writing systems before their conversation to Islam. Military organization, state-building, proper allocation of resources and meritocracy are some of principles which governed early Turkic states. Early Turks were excellent artisans and blacksmiths. A bunch of nomads would take down nothing. They build cities and settlements all across Eurasia. Many Chinese and Sogdians were involved. I don't deny that. :)

whydelilah
02-24-2018, 08:00 PM
Tengrism was similar what we believe today, we had same beliefs in Tengrism as well

But it looks pagan.



Umay (The Turkic root umāy originally meant 'placenta, afterbirth') is the goddess of fertility and virginity. Umay resembles earth-mother goddesses found in various other world religions and is the daughter of Tengri.

Öd Tengri Is the god of time being not well-known, as it states in the orhun stones, "Öd tengri is the ruler of time" and son of Kök Tengri.

Boz Tengri Like Öd Tengri, he is not known much. He is seen as the god of the grounds and steppes and is a son of Kök Tengri.

Kayra is the Spirit of God. Primordial god of highest sky, upper air, space, atmosphere, light, life and son of Kök Tengri.

Ülgen is the son of Kayra and Umay is the god of goodness. The Aruğ (Arı) denotes to "good spirits" in Turkic and Altaic mythology. They are under the order of Ülgen and doing good things on earth.

Erlik is the god of death and the underworld.

Ay Dede is the moon god.

Gün Ana is the sun goddess.

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 08:09 PM
But it looks pagan. I think its about transformation of religions, like moon god of arabs



Umay (The Turkic root umāy originally meant 'placenta, afterbirth') is the goddess of fertility and virginity. Umay resembles earth-mother goddesses found in various other world religions and is the daughter of Tengri.

Öd Tengri Is the god of time being not well-known, as it states in the orhun stones, "Öd tengri is the ruler of time" and son of Kök Tengri.

Boz Tengri Like Öd Tengri, he is not known much. He is seen as the god of the grounds and steppes and is a son of Kök Tengri.

Kayra is the Spirit of God. Primordial god of highest sky, upper air, space, atmosphere, light, life and son of Kök Tengri.

Ülgen is the son of Kayra and Umay is the god of goodness. The Aruğ (Arı) denotes to "good spirits" in Turkic and Altaic mythology. They are under the order of Ülgen and doing good things on earth.

Erlik is the god of death and the underworld.

Ay Dede is the moon god.

Gün Ana is the sun goddess.

boi, they were symbolic and holy (kutsal) stuffs, they were not our Gods. Tengrism was monotheism

whydelilah
02-24-2018, 08:35 PM
boi, they were symbolic and holy (kutsal) stuffs, they were not our Gods. Tengrism was monotheism

could you tell me what symbolic and holy stuffs are?


and is this drawing bullshit?



http://i63.tinypic.com/67jmee.jpg

Böri
02-24-2018, 08:48 PM
Tengri was only major deity. Others were sort of spirits, not equal with Gök Tengri. Umay, Ülgen, Erlig were sorts of Tengri's angels, doing smaller scale jobs. Ay dede etc weren't Tengri's equal.

itilvolga
02-24-2018, 08:54 PM
could you tell me what symbolic and holy stuffs are?


and is this drawing bullshit?



http://i63.tinypic.com/67jmee.jpg

another Turk explained.

Luca
02-24-2018, 10:03 PM
before Islam they were just tribes with kinda no civilization anyhow
Just because their culture does not conform your views doesnt mean that they had no civilization bro.
What exactly makes you think they had no civilization, may I ask?

Óttar
02-24-2018, 10:08 PM
could you tell me what symbolic and holy stuffs are?
and is this drawing bullshit?
Sounds like Hindu reformists who try to claim that Hinduism is monotheistic because the belief that all gods are aspects of one Absolute Brahman is merely one of several different theological perspectives which Hindus can take.

This type of belief system is known as monism and was typical of Hellenistic antiquity, but it is NOT truly monotheistic.

This is merely a weak attempt to appease the sensibilities of Muslims and Christians. It's quite cowardly and intellectually dishonest if you ask me.

Mingle
02-25-2018, 12:30 AM
Then you should have specified that you are talking about the Türki language and not ancestors. Because among Karluks, there were Chigils and Yaghma (Toquz Oghuz) who joined them after the collapse of Uighur Kaghanate. These three founded the Karakhanid state. Uighurs/Toquz Oghuz also migrated to Xinjiang and mixed with Tocharians. Karluks also mixed with Sogdians in Sogdiana in what is today Uzbekistan.

Do you consider Uyghurs and Uzbeks the same people? Shouldn't Uyghurs be renamed Altishahris since calling them Uyghur is a recent 20th century political strategy and hijacking the identity of the original Uyghurs/Yugurs (Siberian Turkic speakers)?

Which specific people are the Hazaras descended from? I think they're mostly C which is a Kipchak haplogroup but their autosomal genetics are very similar to Uyghurs and Uzbeks.

Robocop
02-25-2018, 01:50 AM
Robocop
there is connection between Islam and what turkic people have achieved today, before Islam they were just tribes with kinda no civilization anyhow, after Islam they built great empire which conquered europe after that.

now tell me more about the dark age of europe which the church controlled over everything, and tell me why secular states in europe are the most advanced than orthodox or catholic states?

You are a victim of political correctness history my friend.

Sure there was a Dark age in Europe durin Medievals but not in entire Europe, only Western Europe..., on the other hand Byzantine Empire was the shining beacon of Roman-Greek civilization (troughout Medievals) of Europe and entire planet considering civilization (along with Chinese on the other side of the Globe).

Somehow ppl always forget about Byzantine Empire when talking about Medievals in Europe, Byzantines were not in any kind of "dark age", far from it, Byzantine monetary system was the primary monetary system of entire westen world and mediterranean. Dont forget that your country was Byzantine Empire province and that your ppl were loyal citizens of Byzantine Romano-Greek Empire, dont forget Alexander library, the most precious human library ever (which you Muslims burned to the ground lol, when Islam came to Egypt).

LANGUAGE OF COMMUNICATION WAS GREEK (and Latin), between Europe and Asia and Africa was Greek & Latin durin Byzantine Empire, used by Arabs also to communicate with other ppl, same as English language is today.

P.S. But I do agree with you about Turkic ppl, without Islam they were truly nothin considering any kind of civilization, you Arabs on the other hand, I can respect you considering you civilizational legacy, but Turkic ppl... cammon lol...Without Islam they were like savages.

:) So yes, I agree with you about them.

Yaglakar
02-25-2018, 09:13 AM
Do you consider Uyghurs and Uzbeks the same people? Shouldn't Uyghurs be renamed Altishahris since calling them Uyghur is a recent 20th century political strategy and hijacking the identity of the original Uyghurs/Yugurs (Siberian Turkic speakers)?

Which specific people are the Hazaras descended from? I think they're mostly C which is a Kipchak haplogroup but their autosomal genetics are very similar to Uyghurs and Uzbeks.

Identity has been quite fluid among all Turkic peoples throughout history due to high mobility and absorption of Turkic clans/tribes by other Turks. Plus all the intermixing that took place along the way. If one judges identity and continuation on the basis of language than certainly Uyghurs are not Uighurs. Altïshähär is just a brief period of region's history. It is known that after the collapse of Uighur Khaganate, Uighurs/Toquz Oghuz migrated primarily to Northern Xinjiang and Gansu. Kingdom of Qocho (Idiqut state of Uighur-Tochar origin) and kingdom of Gansu(later Yugurs) were heirs of the Khaganate. Kingdom of Qocho eventually controlled roughly the entire territory of northern Xinjiang when they seized Kucha (a brief Uighur-Tochar city-state). It is also worth to note that Northern Xinjiang and Gansu were part of the Uighur Khaganate, so it was more of an internal relocation to their southern border territories.

Now with Karakhanids who also controlled southern Xinjiang apart from other territories in Central Asia, the story is more blurry. The founders are considered Karluks, Chigils and Yaghma, but it is not clear which clan in fact laid out the foundation. Bartold and some other scholars viewed the Yaghma which is Toquz Oghuz/Uighur branch as the founders of Karakahnid state. What is clear though is that Yaghma controlled and settled in southern Xinjiang - Ordukänd (Kashgar) and Artush as described in 10th century Persian geography book Hudud al-'Alam. The only town which has very little or no connection to Uighurs/Toquz Oghuz is Hotan which was a settled Saka city-state at that point in time.

Some Uyghurs and Uzbeks consider themselves as part of same "nation" but this viewpoint is marginal and mostly due to modern popular culture. Ethnic consciousness and ethnic nationalism is very high in Central Asia. Majority of Turkics don't see themselves as part of the same "family" even to the extent they do in Turkey. The histories of Uzbekistan and Xinjiang are quite different as well as ethnic compositions prior to the arrival of Turkic speaking peoples. Uyghur history is much more Eastern/Chinese shifted for obvious millennium old historical processes.

In regards to Hazaras, as far as I know, their origins are uncertain but probably come from different waves of Turkic as well as Mongolic migrations. I am not sure about those autosomal tests as well. You have to take samples from each and every town in Xinjiang and Uzbekistan because every town was inhabited by different Indo-European peoples. I am not sure about C being Kipchak. Kazakhs got that C from Mongols who initially ravaged Kipchak lands with the support of kingdom of Qocho and Altaics. That is where Kazakhs get their Mongol clans/houses from which leads many Kazakhs to come to a false conclusion that Genghis Khan was in fact a Kazakh.

Yaglakar
02-25-2018, 11:01 AM
About the Tengri thing. There is no evidence of Tengri being some kind of a supreme deity and certainly not a religion. There are no common rituals, beliefs, practices or burial rites connected to Tengri. Tengri was used in loose context to refer to sky/heavens or some kind of an inevitable fate. It was certainly not perceived by old Turks as some sort of 'God', more of a sky/heavens acting as a supernatural force driving the course of events. I and Bori argued about it in this thread: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?232592-Pazyryk-Scythian-aDNA-results-(mtDNA)/page12

adsız
02-25-2018, 11:34 AM
You are a victim of political correctness history my friend.

Sure there was a Dark age in Europe durin Medievals but not in entire Europe, only Western Europe..., on the other hand Byzantine Empire was the shining beacon of Roman-Greek civilization (troughout Medievals) of Europe and entire planet considering civilization (along with Chinese on the other side of the Globe).

Somehow ppl always forget about Byzantine Empire when talking about Medievals in Europe, Byzantines were not in any kind of "dark age", far from it, Byzantine monetary system was the primary monetary system of entire westen world and mediterranean. Dont forget that your country was Byzantine Empire province and that your ppl were loyal citizens of Byzantine Romano-Greek Empire, dont forget Alexander library, the most precious human library ever (which you Muslims burned to the ground lol, when Islam came to Egypt).

LANGUAGE OF COMMUNICATION WAS GREEK (and Latin), between Europe and Asia and Africa was Greek & Latin durin Byzantine Empire, used by Arabs also to communicate with other ppl, same as English language is today.

P.S. But I do agree with you about Turkic ppl, without Islam they were truly nothin considering any kind of civilization, you Arabs on the other hand, I can respect you considering you civilizational legacy, but Turkic ppl... cammon lol...Without Islam they were like savages.

:) So yes, I agree with you about them.


Robocop
there is connection between Islam and what turkic people have achieved today, before Islam they were just tribes with kinda no civilization anyhow, after Islam they built great empire which conquered europe after that.

now tell me more about the dark age of europe which the church controlled over everything, and tell me why secular states in europe are the most advanced than orthodox or catholic states?
Turkic Empires
In 451 AD.
https://www.rasitgokhansucu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Turk_Tarihi_451-720x313.jpg

In 700 A.D
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/T%C3%BCrk_Tarihi_700.jpg/640px-T%C3%BCrk_Tarihi_700.jpg

Böri
02-25-2018, 01:19 PM
About the Tengri thing. There is no evidence of Tengri being some kind of a supreme deity and certainly not a religion. There are no common rituals, beliefs, practices or burial rites connected to Tengri. Tengri was used in loose context to refer to sky/heavens or some kind of an inevitable fate. It was certainly not perceived by old Turks as some sort of 'God', more of a sky/heavens acting as a supernatural force driving the course of events. I and Bori argued about it in this thread: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?232592-Pazyryk-Scythian-aDNA-results-(mtDNA)/page12

You are stubborn Sino-Irano-Mongol.
Tengri a deity, there is no discussion about that. You are militant god-hater obviously, that twists your view. Sure that Tengri isnt same as God of testament or the Allah of Quran since there is difference in attributes. However, Tengri is a supreme deity who has power to grant victory, which lives time, which can strike etc. Tengri is referred to an entity and a being.
That means its a deity.
And there is also a Tengrist religion, with Shamans as ecclesiastical class. That's not a religion in the sense of Judaism or so which organizes life with strict rules. However, it has belief systems affecting worldly life. Such as the belief the Khagan is chosen by Tengri to rule over human masses.

Tengri is a deity and a religion called Tengrism exists. Now you will cut your bs you dimwit. Who are you to argue with me? Shut the fuck up, and go prepare some noodles for me.

Yaglakar
02-25-2018, 03:31 PM
You are stubborn Sino-Irano-Mongol.

Any evidence for this claim?


Tengri a deity, there is no discussion about that. You are militant god-hater obviously, that twists your view. Sure that Tengri isnt same as God of testament or the Allah of Quran since there is difference in attributes. However, Tengri is a supreme deity who has power to grant victory, which lives time, which can strike etc. Tengri is referred to an entity and a being. That means its a deity. And there is also a Tengrist religion, with Shamans as ecclesiastical class. That's not a religion in the sense of Judaism or so which organizes life with strict rules. However, it has belief systems affecting worldly life. Such as the belief the Khagan is chosen by Tengri to rule over human masses. Tengri is a deity and a religion called Tengrism exists. Now you will cut your bs you dimwit. Who are you to argue with me? Shut the fuck up, and go prepare some noodles for me.

Tengrism is neologism from second half of 20th century not supported by any sort of doctrine. Tengrism like Shamanism is a generalized term for various differing and numerous practices represented by the belief in spirits, demons, motherly deities of birth and nurturing, Tengris of road and travel, goddesses of fire, numerous spirits of forests and fields, patrons of horses, cults of mountains and so on. And more importantly the "balance" which sky/heavens/Tengri determines. There are no common set of beliefs or practices connected to it. If Turks or Mongols had any kind of “religion”, they would advocate and spread it. In ancient China and Japan emperors were seen as sons of heaven/sky receiving mandate of heaven to perform their acts. In Turkic mythology sky/heavens were seen in similar manner. Bring proof from old Turkic runes that Tengri is a single supreme deity and evidence of Tengrism.

Böri
02-25-2018, 03:46 PM
Any evidence for this claim?

So you mean you troll in your profile info, just as you troll in your posts?
Ancestry: Old Uyghurs/Türükler, Tocharians, Sogdians, Mongols, Han Chinese, Tibetans

Sino-Irano-Mongol describes you.


Tengrism is neologism from second half of 20th century not supported by any sort of doctrine. Tengrism like Shamanism is a generalized term for various differing and numerous practices represented by the belief in spirits, demons, motherly deities of birth and nurturing, Tengris of road and travel, goddesses of fire, numerous spirits of forests and fields, patrons of horses, cults of mountains and so on. And more importantly the "balance" which sky/heavens/Tengri determines. There are no common set of beliefs or practices connected to it. If Turks or Mongols had any kind of “religion”, they would advocate and spread it. In ancient China and Japan emperors were seen as sons of heaven/sky receiving mandate of heaven to perform their acts. In Turkic mythology sky/heavens were seen in similar manner. Bring proof from old Turkic runes that Tengri is a single supreme deity and evidence of Tengrism.

Your post doesn't make sense. What you do is like telling old testament isn't monotheistic because it says 'You shall not have any God before me' (other gods? of roads and lakes?). Sky Tengri was supreme deity, it was a deity. Bilge Khagan imagines Tengri in the heavens with a power to strike down. Beside, there is also Irk Bitig where Turks are said to have their own Tengri.
Tengrism had various elements. Some monotheistic aspects, some polytheistics. There was also animist and totemist influence but nothing of that changes that Tengri is a deity.
Deity: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship.
Tengri fits the description of deity.
When deities and some practices, processions exist, there is religion. That's a belief system with traditions etc like Göktürk khagans and their processions at the wooden mountain of Ötüken. Thus, Tengrism (religion) also exists.

Arthur9
02-25-2018, 03:49 PM
Fascinating.

Pahli
02-25-2018, 04:03 PM
Turkic Empires
In 451 AD.
https://www.rasitgokhansucu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Turk_Tarihi_451-720x313.jpg

In 700 A.D
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/T%C3%BCrk_Tarihi_700.jpg/640px-T%C3%BCrk_Tarihi_700.jpg

Nice bullshit map, the Huns never reached Northern Europe or Northern parts of modern Russia and the Hephthalites were mixed Iranic and Turkic tribes under one confederation.

Yaglakar
02-25-2018, 04:40 PM
So you mean you troll in your profile info, just as you troll in your posts?
Ancestry: Old Uyghurs/Türükler, Tocharians, Sogdians, Mongols, Han Chinese, Tibetans
Sino-Irano-Mongol describes you.

Are you telling me you have no Anatolian ancestry? :) All the people highlighted in bold used to live in the region (although there were few of them) and they contributed to the ethnogenesis. In which posts did I claim I was Sino-tibetan or Iranic?


Your post doesn't make sense. What you do is like telling old testament isn't monotheistic because it says 'You shall not have any God before me' (other gods? of roads and lakes?). Sky Tengri was supreme deity, it was a deity. Bilge Khagan imagines Tengri in the heavens with a power to strike down. Beside, there is also Irk Bitig where Turks are said to have their own Tengri.
Tengrism had various elements. Some monotheistic aspects, some polytheistics. There was also animist and totemist influence but nothing of that changes that Tengri is a deity.
Deity: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship.
Tengri fits the description of deity.
When deities and some practices, processions exist, there is religion. That's a belief system with traditions etc like Göktürk khagans and their processions at the wooden mountain of Ötüken. Thus, Tengrism (religion) also exists.

The problem with Tengri is that it was used to refer to many different deities like sky/heavens, roads and travel. Not even talking about abstract contexts of 'fate', certain 'ultimatum' and 'balance'. I mentioned it before - Tengri was used to refer to sky/heavens literally as well. We can't talk about Tengrism as a religion because there are no common set of beliefs and practices. I don't understand how can something be monotheistic and polytheistic at the same time. It's an oxymoron.

zhaoyun
02-25-2018, 04:47 PM
Meh. Tang armies were too far from home, shit happens.

Pahli
02-25-2018, 05:39 PM
Meh. Tang armies were too far from home, shit happens.

And betrayed as well, otherwise they could have succeeded and gotten support from the local inhabitants of Central Asia. They still managed to stop the Arabs, destroy the Gökturks and make them flee Westward.

Böri
02-25-2018, 06:13 PM
Are you telling me you have no Anatolian ancestry? :) All the people highlighted in bold used to live in the region (although there were few of them) and they contributed to the ethnogenesis. In which posts did I claim I was Sino-tibetan or Iranic?

Only Toharians contributed to Uighur's Karluk ethnogenesis. Han Chinese, Tibetans, Mongols, Sogdians or any other Iranians didnt.
That said you Uighurness can be questioned, in the other thread you were using Turkish very good.



The problem with Tengri is that it was used to refer to many different deities like sky/heavens, roads and travel. Not even talking about abstract contexts of 'fate', certain 'ultimatum' and 'balance'. I mentioned it before - Tengri was used to refer to sky/heavens literally as well. We can't talk about Tengrism as a religion because there are no common set of beliefs and practices. I don't understand how can something be monotheistic and polytheistic at the same time. It's an oxymoron.

To this day, Heaven is used for both meaning in many Western languages too. So was in old Turkic.
Tengri word most likely evolved from balance word, dengelemek in modern turkish. You are the only person ever likely to pretend that it's not a deity. It was used by all Turkic people incl. westernmost Bulgars (Tangra). Tengrism was practiced by different races, some had more polytheistic practices and others more monotheistic.

A good description is like this.

Kazakhstan - Culture Smart!: The Essential Guide to Customs & Culture
By Dina Zhansagimova
https://i.hizliresim.com/2JOjbq.jpg

Böri
02-25-2018, 06:25 PM
And betrayed as well, otherwise they could have succeeded and gotten support from the local inhabitants of Central Asia. They still managed to stop the Arabs, destroy the Gökturks and make them flee Westward.

By causing all this, Chinese also caused the butthurt in you autistic frustrated ape. After Turks, lastly you were begging Georgians too so to identify the way you want. Have they done? xD user- and nosferatu rejected.

Pahli
02-25-2018, 06:28 PM
By causing all this, Chinese also caused the butthurt in you autistic frustrated ape. After Turks, lastly you were begging Georgians too so to identify the way you want. Have they done? xD user- and nosferatu rejected. You be hatin them too?

Lol triggered because the Tangs made your people flee? Fucking autistic retard never stops xD

Stop bringing Georgians into this, you have issues with yourself, go fix them instead of letting them out here on the forums, you're not helping yourself xD

Böri
02-25-2018, 06:32 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/ABoaCMjkoqmIg/giphy.gif

Kamal900
02-25-2018, 06:55 PM
Yes I did but even without your help Arabs couldnt go against Greek fire whenever they would attack Byzantines/Constantinople.

You didnt save anythin, Byzantine Enmpire was shield of Europe for 1000 years.

And most advanced human society for 1000 years.

Until you destroyed it and invade Europe, that is the only thing you did and we dont forget, and we will never forget Christian HOLY CITY Constantinople.

Cheers :)

Well, I don't mind Constantinople to go back to it's original roots really. During the Abbasid period, we did have a good relations with the Byzantine empire in the middle ages.

Kamal900
02-25-2018, 06:56 PM
Lol triggered because the Tangs made your people flee? Fucking autistic retard never stops xD

Stop bringing Georgians into this, you have issues with yourself, go fix them instead of letting them out here on the forums, you're not helping yourself xD

Is it really true that Erdogan is Georgian? I've heard that the claim is unfounded by some historians. Erdogan most likely said that to please the people of Georgia when he was there.

Böri
02-25-2018, 06:57 PM
Pahli while spreading West Asian ultranationalism xD And reaction of TA Georgians

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0GqxQvQNMMN6A3QY/giphy.gif

Mingle
02-25-2018, 06:59 PM
Is it really true that Erdogan is Georgian? I've heard that the claim is unfounded by some historians. Erdogan most likely said that to please the people of Georgia when he was there.

Only his grandfather is I think.

Kamal900
02-25-2018, 07:00 PM
Pahli while spreading West Asian ultranationalism xD And reaction of TA Georgians

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0GqxQvQNMMN6A3QY/giphy.gif

Aren't Turks west Asians too? I mean, you people do cluster with them.

Böri
02-25-2018, 07:02 PM
Aren't Turks west Asians too? I mean, you people do cluster with them.

Nah. Anyway that's not the point. Point is the autistic Iranian Kurdish retard who is frustrated when people don't wanna identify with him. xD That's funny but sad and pathetic in the same time. Actual Turks on TA never beg anyone to identify with.

Mingle
02-25-2018, 07:06 PM
Nah. Anyway that's not the point. Point is the autistic Iranian Kurdish retard who is frustrated when people don't wanna identify with him. xD That's funny but sad and pathetic in the same time. Actual Turks on TA never beg anyone to identify with.

Saying that Georgians are West Asians doesn't mean he wants to identify with them, it's just stating a fact.

Pahli
02-25-2018, 07:08 PM
Pahli while spreading West Asian ultranationalism xD And reaction of TA Georgians

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0GqxQvQNMMN6A3QY/giphy.gif

Lul, 70% West Asian autosomal DNA and still rejecting it, so Turks according to you must be either European or Asian, stop being autistic and deny that you are similar to your neighbours, your fascistic ideologies make you even more retarded than you are and my signature is proof of that.


Nah. Anyway that's not the point. Point is the autistic Iranian Kurdish retard who is frustrated when people don't wanna identify with him. xD That's funny but sad and pathetic in the same time. Actual Turks on TA never beg anyone to identify with.

I didn't beg, it was a fact that butthurts you to the maximum so you start crying about Turks not being West Asian even though the majority of them are, stop whining about it you autistic retard, you seem pissed about it xD

Kamal900
02-25-2018, 07:11 PM
Nah. Anyway that's not the point. Point is the autistic Iranian Kurdish retard who is frustrated when people don't wanna identify with him. xD That's funny but sad and pathetic in the same time. Actual Turks on TA never beg anyone to identify with.

Well, what he was saying is reality. He was never asking Turks to identify themselves with Kurds or whatever. He's just saying that Turks are genetically predominately west Asians with significant Turkic admixture in them. There's nothing wrong with that statement honestly.

Böri
02-25-2018, 07:12 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/jLKvwWHIXUS4/giphy.gif

Pahli
02-25-2018, 07:20 PM
Well, what he was saying is reality. He was never asking Turks to identify themselves with Kurds or whatever. He's just saying that Turks are genetically predominately west Asians with significant Turkic admixture in them. There's nothing wrong with that statement honestly.

He suffers from mental illness and tries to diverge anything to some kind of personal insult because I destroyed his retarded flawed logic and arguments in numerous threads, let him cry as much as he wants, people know the truth xD

Mingle
02-25-2018, 07:22 PM
Lul, 70% West Asian autosomal DNA and still rejecting it, so Turks according to you must be either European or Asian, stop being autistic and deny that you are similar to your neighbours, your fascistic ideologies make you even more retarded than you are and my signature is proof of that.



I didn't beg, it was a fact that butthurts you to the maximum so you start crying about Turks not being West Asian even though the majority of them are, stop whining about it you autistic retard, you seem pissed about it xD

Turks are not West Asians. They are closest to Finno-Ugrics IMO.

Pahli
02-25-2018, 07:26 PM
Turks are not West Asians. They are closest to Finno-Ugrics IMO.

Nice meme xD

Yaglakar
02-25-2018, 07:50 PM
Only Toharians contributed to Uighur's Karluk ethnogenesis. Han Chinese, Tibetans, Mongols, Sogdians or any other Iranians didnt.
That said you Uighurness can be questioned, in the other thread you were using Turkish very good.

Would you be kind, drop the Karluk thingy and read my post to Mingle. :) There were thousands of Han Chinese households in Gaochang (Turfan) at the time of Rouran Khaganate. Hotan was a saka city-state, not Tocharian. Mahmud Kashgari mentions it in 11th century (after Karakhanid conquest) that the inhabitants don't speak Turkic well. The only people one can almost entirely drop out are Tibetans. Sure all these people were not numerous but they were there. Since when is Turkicness deternmined by the knowledge of the Turkish language? :)


To this day, Heaven is used for both meaning in many Western languages too. So was in old Turkic.
Tengri word most likely evolved from balance word, dengelemek in modern turkish. You are the only person ever likely to pretend that it's not a deity. It was used by all Turkic people incl. westernmost Bulgars (Tangra). Tengrism was practiced by different races, some had more polytheistic practices and others more monotheistic.

A good description is like this.

Kazakhstan - Culture Smart!: The Essential Guide to Customs & Culture
By Dina Zhansagimova
https://i.hizliresim.com/2JOjbq.jpg

Common Böri, you can't use a travel guide titled "Culture Smart!" as an argument. :) Yes Tengri is a deity. But Tengri was used to refer to various deities not only sky/heavens, as you pointed out in Irk Bitig there are Tengries of roads and travel. Old Turks did not have an understanding of a single supreme deity. You seem to not really like Islam, accused me of being a communist, so I guess you are a Tengrici? But let's leave it here. I don't want to get into a serious brawl here with a fellow Turk given the manner you structured your replies. :)

Robocop
02-25-2018, 08:05 PM
Turkic Empires
In 451 AD.
https://www.rasitgokhansucu.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Turk_Tarihi_451-720x313.jpg

In 700 A.D
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/T%C3%BCrk_Tarihi_700.jpg/640px-T%C3%BCrk_Tarihi_700.jpg

In a second map I thought for a second it says; "Islam Devil Empire" hahaha.

Yaglakar
02-25-2018, 08:12 PM
In a second map I thought for a second it says; "Islam Devil Empire" hahaha.

Robocop, sweetheart - why don't you go to other threads and squeal how you hate the term Balkans and screech about sportiness of Croatians? :)

Robocop
02-25-2018, 08:14 PM
Robocop, sweetheart - why don't you go to other threads and squeal how you hate the term Balkans and screech about sportiness of Croatians? :)

Lol.

Well dear, it's just the fact that Croats are THE most talented (along with Serbs) ppl for sports on this planet, having in mind the number of our population, just a fact, we are wonder. lol :cool:

Böri
02-25-2018, 08:19 PM
Would you be kind, drop the Karluk thingy and read my post to Mingle. :) There were thousands of Han Chinese households in Gaochang (Turfan) at the time of Rouran Khaganate. Hotan was a saka city-state, not Tocharian. Mahmud Kashgari mentions it in 11th century (after Karakhanid conquest) that the inhabitants don't speak Turkic well. The only people one can almost entirely drop out are Tibetans. Sure all these people were not numerous but they were there. Since when is Turkicness deternmined by the knowledge of the Turkish language? :)

Uighurs aren't part Chinese in their ethnogenesis you noodle puller.
They are Karluk + some Toharian effects and that's all.




Common Böri, you can't use a travel guide titled "Culture Smart!" as an argument. :) Yes Tengri is a deity. But Tengri was used to refer to various deities not only sky/heavens, as you pointed out in Irk Bitig there are Tengries of roads and travel. Old Turks did not have an understanding of a single supreme deity. You seem to not really like Islam, accused me of being a communist, so I guess you are a Tengrici? But let's leave it here. I don't want to get into a serious brawl here with a fellow Turk given the manner you structured your replies. :)

Dimwit, if to end with a statement like this why you kept arguing that long. The quote was just an accurate definition, how it would be.
Here from Tonyukuk stele:

https://i.hizliresim.com/dOLGGr.jpg

https://i.hizliresim.com/rO02Jz.jpg[/url]

https://i.hizliresim.com/6JDXaN.jpg

Tengri chooses, Tengri speaks, Tengri bestows, Tengri is living supreme body. Thus a God. End of discussion.

Yaglakar
02-25-2018, 08:28 PM
Uighurs aren't part Chinese in their ethnogenesis you noodle puller.
They are Karluk + some Toharian effects and that's all.




Dimwit, if to end with a statement like this why you kept arguing that long. The quote was just an accurate definition, how it would be.
Here from Tonyukuk stele:

https://i.hizliresim.com/dOLGGr.jpg

https://i.hizliresim.com/rO02Jz.jpg[/url]

https://i.hizliresim.com/6JDXaN.jpg

Tengri chooses, Tengri speaks, Tengri bestows, Tengri is living supreme body. Thus a God. End of discussion.

You know that Uyghurs make hand pulled noodles, right? :rolleyes: It is one of the most popular dishes. :)

Uyghur ancestry comes from Yaghma, old Uighurs/Toquz Oghuz and Tocharians. Karluks by language. :thumb001:

Armenian Bishop
02-25-2018, 09:01 PM
The only ones who stopped spreading of Arabic virus (from 622 AD forward) were Byzantine Empire and Chinese.

Salute both to Byzantines and Chinese.

P.S. No offence to any Arab here when I wrote "Arabic virus", I'm not sayin this to ppl, but how else to call that spreading of Arabs from 622 AD till today, someone had to stop them, and someone did.

11th Century Armenia was a buffer zone and shield against Turkic invasions from the East; unfortunately, Byzantine expansionism became too ambitious and reckless (by that time), and the Byzantines blundered badly with it. Instead of reinforcing and strengthening 11th Century Armenia, the Byzantines sought to absorb it into their empire, at first by military methods, and having failed at that they exploited Armenia's political weaknesses which allowed them to worm their way into Armenia.

Ani was the Capitol of Bagratid Armenia (885-1045), and was also known as the City of 1,001 Churches. It's wealth was enriched by the Silk Road Trade Routes. Its location is near the border of present day Armenia, in present day Northeast Turkey.

In the 11th Century, the Byzantines began to exploit Armenia's political weaknesses, and even invaded Armenia with their armies. Armenia militarily defeated both the Byzantines and the Turks, and expelled the invaders (on all fronts). Having failed to achieve a military victory, the Byzantines used political pressure, and compelled the king to cede Armenia to the Byzantines, in 1045. Just 19 years later, the Byzantines caved into pressure from the Turks, and blundered away Ani.

Earlier in the 11th Century, Armenia had proven that it was capable of withstanding Turkish invasions. The Byzantine Empire invaded Armenia from the West, while at the same time, the Seljuk Turks attacked Armenia from the East -- both invasions forces were repeatedly defeated, with heavy casualties. A noteworthy battle was fought at Ani (in 1042), where some 50,000 Armenians defeated and routed a Byzantine army (twice its size), and inflicted some 20,000 Byzantine casualties. After Armenia's King was deposed, it didn't take long for the Turks to penetrate deep into Armenia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ani

Kamal900
02-26-2018, 12:31 AM
Turks are not West Asians. They are closest to Finno-Ugrics IMO.

The signature with Bori is uber, lol.

Kamal900
02-26-2018, 12:32 AM
Lol.

Well dear, it's just the fact that Croats are THE most talented (along with Serbs) ppl for sports on this planet, having in mind the number of our population, just a fact, we are wonder. lol :cool:

I'd like to visit Croatia one day :D

Kamal900
02-26-2018, 12:33 AM
Nice meme xD

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/914/491/193.png

Kamal900
02-26-2018, 12:35 AM
Nice meme xD

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/5e/5e0a37bae639a87133e8c57b41de93724b8bd770f2f084ea67 412532bb704f2e.jpg

Böri
02-26-2018, 05:17 PM
[img]http://i0.kym-cdn.com/phoimg]

https://media.giphy.com/media/XangEYFeTChFe/giphy.gif

Kamal900
02-26-2018, 05:52 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/XangEYFeTChFe/giphy.gif

https://orig00.deviantart.net/7a13/f/2012/007/d/a/fairy_tail__lucy_color_by_misssinclair-d4ln54o.jpg

StonyArabia
03-02-2018, 11:45 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/XangEYFeTChFe/giphy.gif

Turk remember we liberated you from the Chinese lol

Robocop
03-03-2018, 12:17 AM
I'd like to visit Croatia one day :D

You're always welcome.

http://i.imgur.com/b9PiWTH.jpg

Böri
03-03-2018, 07:38 AM
Turk remember we liberated you from the Chinese lol

Turks already liberated themselves from Chinese as 2nd Turkic khaganate was built in 682. You liberated your far east Iranic, south central Asian subjects from Tang domination with help of Karluk Turks. Most Turkic tribes were in Kazakhstan and Pontic-Caspian steppes incl. my ancestors and they were free by time of Talas battle. Uighurs and Kirghiz of Yenisei were free in east; Khazars, Cumans, Bulgars were free in west. Oghuz were free in central steppe.

Yaglakar
03-04-2018, 11:25 AM
11th Century Armenia was a buffer zone and shield against Turkic invasions from the East

Reality check for Armenian:

https://i.imgur.com/ImUYlWR.png

Ann K. S. Lambton et all. 1977. The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. 1A: The Central Islamic Lands from Pre-Islamic Times to the First World War. Cambridge University Press

https://i.imgur.com/8Rk3j7k.png
https://i.imgur.com/eMmQueV.png

Claude Cahen. 2008. Pre-Ottoman Turkey: A General Survey of the Material and Spiritual Culture and History c.1071-1330. ACLS Humanities


Turk remember we liberated you from the Chinese lol

Reality check for dromedary rider:

https://i.imgur.com/AzeuOgM.png
https://i.imgur.com/NT3kXvg.png
Claude Cahen. 2008. Pre-Ottoman Turkey: A General Survey of the Material and Spiritual Culture and History c.1071-1330. ACLS Humanities

Clown, Arab caliphate did not liberate anyone. There were no Turks in south Central Asia at that point in time. Sogdians started flooding northern Turkic lands afterwards, because Arabs were persecuting them. It is Turks who liberated Persians from the clutches of your savagery.

Böri
03-04-2018, 11:47 AM
Reality check for Armenian:

https://i.imgur.com/ImUYlWR.png

Ann K. S. Lambton et all. 1977. The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. 1A: The Central Islamic Lands from Pre-Islamic Times to the First World War. Cambridge University Press

https://i.imgur.com/8Rk3j7k.png
https://i.imgur.com/eMmQueV.png

Claude Cahen. 2008. Pre-Ottoman Turkey: A General Survey of the Material and Spiritual Culture and History c.1071-1330. ACLS Humanities



Reality check for dromedary rider:

https://i.imgur.com/AzeuOgM.png
https://i.imgur.com/NT3kXvg.png
Claude Cahen. 2008. Pre-Ottoman Turkey: A General Survey of the Material and Spiritual Culture and History c.1071-1330. ACLS Humanities

Clown, Arab caliphate did not liberate anyone. There were no Turks in south Central Asia at that point in time. Sogdians started flooding northern Turkic lands afterwards, because Arabs were persecuting them. It is Turks who liberated Persians from the clutches of your savagery.

Sogdians and Khwarezmians weren't Persian though Iranic. Also they didn't move to Turkic lands. They stayed where they are. Later they converted. In 13th century, After Jalaladdin (Turkic shah of Khwarezm) lost against Mongols, Turkic nomads moved away from the path of the genocidal Mongol armies. Mongols slaughtered Iranic settled population of south central Asia, later when Turks returned as Mongol terror was smoothing, they saw that all Iranians were killed. That's how Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan came to be later as Turkic countries.