How Armenia was brutalized by the barbaric Black Sheep

[StonyArabia]

Armenia fell under the control of the Kara Koyunlu in 1410. The principal Armenian sources available in this period come from the historian Tovma Metsopetsi and several colophons to contemporary manuscripts.[8] According to Tovma, although the Kara Koyunlu levied heavy taxes against the Armenians, the early years of their rule were relatively peaceful and some reconstruction of towns took place. This peaceful period was, however, shattered with the rise of Qara Iskander, who reportedly made Armenia a "desert" and subjected it to "devastation and plunder, to slaughter, and captivity."[9] Iskander's wars with and eventual defeat by the Timurids invited further destruction in Armenia, as many Armenians were taken captive and sold into slavery and the land was subjected to outright pillaging, forcing many of them to leave the region.[10] Iskander did attempt to reconcile with the Armenians by appointing an Armenian from a noble family, Rustum, as one of his advisers.

[StonyArabia]

Turko-Persian civilization ? more like barbarism

[Bobby Martnen]

Turko-Persian civilization ? more like barbarism

Inb4 jackrussell posts nonsense in this thread.

[StonyArabia]

Inb4 jackrussell posts nonsense in this thread.

The Black Sheep, The White Sheep, the Safavid and Afsharids were all Turko-Persian in fact they were more Persian than Turk by culture, but their savagery and barbarism is well noted. The same guy Qara Iksander would also plunder Muslim Baghdad, and the same would repeat itself by the Safavids and Afsharids. Armenia however suffered heavily under the Black sheep regime.

[Armenian Bishop]

Armenia fell under the control of the Kara Koyunlu in 1410. The principal Armenian sources available in this period come from the historian Tovma Metsopetsi and several colophons to contemporary manuscripts.[8] According to Tovma, although the Kara Koyunlu levied heavy taxes against the Armenians, the early years of their rule were relatively peaceful and some reconstruction of towns took place. This peaceful period was, however, shattered with the rise of Qara Iskander, who reportedly made Armenia a "desert" and subjected it to "devastation and plunder, to slaughter, and captivity."[9] Iskander's wars with and eventual defeat by the Timurids invited further destruction in Armenia, as many Armenians were taken captive and sold into slavery and the land was subjected to outright pillaging, forcing many of them to leave the region.[10] Iskander did attempt to reconcile with the Armenians by appointing an Armenian from a noble family, Rustum, as one of his advisers.

This is genuine curiosity, and I'm serious: What's the source for that quote? Based upon the footnote numbers it looks like a Wikipedia Article. Which one?

[StonyArabia]

This is genuine curiosity, and I'm serious: What's the source for that quote? Based upon the footnote numbers it looks like a Wikipedia Article. Which one?

It is from wikipedia about these barbarians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Koyunlu

This is the source:

Kouymjian. "Armenia", p. 4.

Kouymjian, Dickran (1997), "Armenia from the Fall of the Cilician Kingdom (1375) to the Forced Migration under Shah Abbas (1604)" in The Armenian People From Ancient to Modern Times, Volume II: Foreign Dominion to Statehood: The Fifteenth Century to the Twentieth Century, ed. Richard G. Hovannisian, New York: St. Martin's Press, p. 4. ISBN 1-4039-6422-X.
Jump up ^

[Armenian Bishop]

It is from wikipedia about these barbarians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Koyunlu

This is the source:

Kouymjian. "Armenia", p. 4.

Kouymjian, Dickran (1997), "Armenia from the Fall of the Cilician Kingdom (1375) to the Forced Migration under Shah Abbas (1604)" in The Armenian People From Ancient to Modern Times, Volume II: Foreign Dominion to Statehood: The Fifteenth Century to the Twentieth Century, ed. Richard G. Hovannisian, New York: St. Martin's Press, p. 4. ISBN 1-4039-6422-X.
Jump up ^

Thank You ...

[StonyArabia]

Thank You ...

You welcome it seems Armenia always felt the Turko-Persian savagery sadly. It's really amazing that Armenia still exists as a proud nation.

[Yaglakar]

Any other source instead of an Armenian one Dickran Kouymjian. :rolleyes:

[Bobby Martnen]

Any other source instead of an Armenian one Dickran Kouymjian. :rolleyes:

:picard2:

[StonyArabia]

Any other source instead of an Armenian one Dickran Kouymjian. :rolleyes:

Even the Arab historians have recorded the barbarism of the Turko-Persian dynasties. Qara Iksander is well known to have burned Mosul to the ground and made Baghdad into a blood bath. This would re-appear again with the rise of the Safavids that saw Baghdad and Basra drenched with blood but it's maniac leader Shah Ismail. Btw these groups were only Turkic by name, in reality they were more Persian than anything especially culturally, and this is especially true of the Safavid barbarians.

Arab historians also note of the plunder of Armenia by these groups, the sources are in Arabic though

[Bobby Martnen]

Even the Arab historians have recorded the barbarism of the Turko-Persian dynasties. Qara Iksander is well known to have burned Mosul to the ground and made Baghdad into a blood bath. This would re-appear again with the rise of the Safavids that saw Baghdad and Basra drenched with blood but it's maniac leader Shah Ismail. Btw these groups were only Turkic by name, in reality they were more Persian than anything especially culturally, and this is especially true of the Safavid barbarians.

Arab historians also note of the plunder of Armenia by these groups, the sources are in Arabic though

Yaglakar is a troll. Ignore him.

[Mingle]

You welcome it seems Armenia always felt the Turko-Persian savagery sadly. It's really amazing that Armenia still exists as a proud nation.

Persian? Why are you bringing Persians into this? The thing is about Armens being killed by Turks, so Persians are irrelevant here and saying 'Turko-Persian' makes just as much sense as 'Turko-Arab'. Also, the Iranic people that ruled Armenia for several centuries were Parthians not Persians (though Persians ruled them too).

[StonyArabia]

Persian? Why are you bringing Persians into this? The thing is about Armens being killed by Turks, so Persians are irrelevant here and saying 'Turko-Persian' makes just as much sense as 'Turko-Arab'. Also, the Iranic people that ruled Armenia for several centuries were Parthians not Persians (though Persians ruled them too).

I am referring to the Persianate Turkics. They have become more Persian than Turk at the end, this culminated in the rise of the barbaric Safavid dynasty. I do realize that. There is no Turko-Arab culture, but there is certainly a Turko-Persian culture that both Turks and Persians share. A lot of these Turko-Persians saw themselves as the continuation of the Sassanids especially the Safavids and Afsharids, the latter is also known for it's wanton cruelty and barbarism.

At least in this event, it was the Turko-Persian or Persianate Turkic what ever term once wishes to call it.

That's recent, and it has more complicated history. Well yes I know that, the Parthians were the ones who ruled Armenia, but the Persian/Persianate also ruled it for a very long time

[Mingle]

I am referring to the Persianate Turkics. They have become more Persian than Turk at the end, this culminated in the rise of the barbaric Safavid dynasty. I do realize that. There is no Turko-Arab culture, but there is certainly a Turko-Persian culture that both Turks and Persians share. A lot of these Turko-Persians saw themselves as the continuation of the Sassanids especially the Safavids and Afsharids, the latter is also known for it's wanton cruelty and barbarism.

At least in this event, it was the Turko-Persian or Persianate Turkic what ever term once wishes to call it.

That's recent, and it has more complicated history. Well yes I know that, the Parthians were the ones who ruled Armenia, but the Persian/Persianate also ruled it for a very long time

Okay, yes they were Persianized but it was a misleading word.

[wvwvw]

Armenians claim 7 Turkish provinces that were seized illegally by Turkey, provinces that used to have purely an Armenian population.

https://www.crashonline.gr/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/%CE%91%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%C E%BF-%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C-Toyrkiko-dimosievma.jpg

[Yaglakar]

Even the Arab historians have recorded the barbarism of the Turko-Persian dynasties. Qara Iksander is well known to have burned Mosul to the ground and made Baghdad into a blood bath. This would re-appear again with the rise of the Safavids that saw Baghdad and Basra drenched with blood but it's maniac leader Shah Ismail. Btw these groups were only Turkic by name, in reality they were more Persian than anything especially culturally, and this is especially true of the Safavid barbarians.

Arab historians also note of the plunder of Armenia by these groups, the sources are in Arabic though

“When other Christians heard of their prosperity, they sought to move under Seljuk administration, and thus escape from Byzantine oppression. Christian authors who had described the Turks during the years of the first conquest as terrifying plunderers, subsequently began to sing the praises of the Seljuk sultans to a remarkable degree; this was a natural consequence of their just and efficient administration, as well as their compassionate protection of their Christian subjects. The great religious tolerance of the Seljuks, and the freedom enjoyed by the Christians, made the latter more loyal to the Seljuks, and increased their hatred for Byzantium.” Ann K. S. Lambton et all. 1977. The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. 1A: The Central Islamic Lands from Pre-Islamic Times to the First World War. Cambridge University Press

About Seljuqs: “Commerce, agriculture, and art thrived in the kingdom, where a tolerance of races and religions contributed to order and stability.” Encyclopedia Britannica

“Claude Cahen repeatedly emphasized the religious tolerance of the Anatolian Seljuks, exceptional for the Muslim world.” A.C.S. Peacock. 2015. The Seljuks of Anatolia: Court and Society in the Medieval Middle East. I.B.Tauris

“In the first century of Safavid rule, she argues, sovereignty was vested in the entire ruling clan, which included its female members, thus enabling Pari Khan Khanum to advance herself as a legitimate candidate for the throne. Babayan calls sixteenth-century Iran in general a ‘spirited age’ marked by an ‘eclectic and tolerant darvish culture’ that had allowed for weddings enlivened by music and dance, that had tolerated mixed gatherings, and that permitted women to go out alone and stroll in gardens and bazaars without their male relatives.” Colin P. Mitchell. 2011. New Perspectives on Safavid Iran: Empire and Society. Routledge

Safavid Iran was initially Turkic in character and that ‘spirited age’ came along with Turkic elements. Oghuz Turks forged Seljuk Empire widely regarded for its religious and ethnic tolerance. All you do here is pick some isolated events to prove your weak arguments. You can do this with practically any empire or state formation in antique and medieval worlds.

[Yaglakar]

Yaglakar is a troll. Ignore him.

Seriously Bobby, you should be last person on this forum given your post history to call me a troll :)

[meisje]

Armenians claim 7 Turkish provinces that were seized illegally by Turkey, provinces that used to have purely an Armenian population.

https://www.crashonline.gr/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/%CE%91%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%C E%BF-%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C-Toyrkiko-dimosievma.jpg

Kars-Van-Erzurum-Mush..None of them were pure Armenian,Van was 50%Armenian in 1914 at most btw.places where Armenians live

[Yaglakar]

Reality check for Armenians and Arabs:

“When other Christians heard of their prosperity, they sought to move under Seljuk administration, and thus escape from Byzantine oppression. Christian authors who had described the Turks during the years of the first conquest as terrifying plunderers, subsequently began to sing the praises of the Seljuk sultans to a remarkable degree; this was a natural consequence of their just and efficient administration, as well as their compassionate protection of their Christian subjects. The great religious tolerance of the Seljuks, and the freedom enjoyed by the Christians, made the latter more loyal to the Seljuks, and increased their hatred for Byzantium.” Ann K. S. Lambton et all. 1977. The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. 1A: The Central Islamic Lands from Pre-Islamic Times to the First World War. Cambridge University Press

“Claude Cahen repeatedly emphasized the religious tolerance of the Anatolian Seljuks, exceptional for the Muslim world.” A.C.S. Peacock. 2015. The Seljuks of Anatolia: Court and Society in the Medieval Middle East. I.B.Tauris

[Yaglakar]

The spread of ethnic, linguistic and religious tolerance brought by the Seljuks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUEqSQA5E5c

[StonyArabia]

The spread of ethnic, linguistic and religious tolerance brought by the Seljuks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUEqSQA5E5c

The Seljuks might have been tolerant but certainly not the White Sheep and Black sheep, nor were the Safavids who were the most barbaric, then followed by the Afsharids. The Safavid barbarism is well noted both on Muslim and non-Muslim subjects. For example the Safavids would often burn Tilbisi in Georgia to the ground, and the same happened in Basra and Baghdad.

[Armenian Bishop]

The Seljuks might have been tolerant but certainly not the White Sheep and Black sheep, nor were the Safavids who were the most barbaric, then followed by the Afsharids. The Safavid barbarism is well noted both on Muslim and non-Muslim subjects. For example the Safavids would often burn Tilbisi in Georgia to the ground, and the same happened in Basra and Baghdad.

The Seljuk Turks were tolerant towards the the peace and quiet of the unmarked graves they trampled over.

Ani, the 11th Century Armenian Capitol was rich with silk road wealth. Also known as the City of 1,001 Churches, with a population of more than 100,000, Ani never recovered from the slaughter and looting of the Turks. In 1064, The Arab Historian Sibt ibn al-Jawzi witnessed the destruction of Ani: "The dead bodies were so many that they blocked the streets; one could not go anywhere without stepping over them. And the number of prisoners was not less than 50,000 souls. I was determined to enter city and see the destruction with my own eyes. I tried to find a street in which I would not have to walk over the corpses; but that was impossible."

[Bobby Martnen]

Armenians claim 7 Turkish provinces that were seized illegally by Turkey, provinces that used to have purely an Armenian population.


Good. Armenia should get them back.