If the Balkans never came under Ottoman rule

[poiuytrewq0987]

I like to guess how things might have turned out if the Balkans never came under Ottoman rule. So, here I go.

The three core Balkan powers (Serbian, Bulgarian and Byzantine Empires) would have probably stayed powerful up to this day. The rise of the Austrian Empire would have probably never happened too since a lot of it was dependent on taking large portions of Balkan territories and Hungary. The Magyars would've probably ended up taking all of Austria and Magyarizing the area.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5604/balkans.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

A lot of cultural development of the Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians and many others under the Ottoman Empire were stifled. So with the Ottomans not there would mean a richer and more in-depth culture for all Balkan ethnic groups.

Not to mention the fact we would have probably saw a greater continuity between Byzantine Greeks and modern Greeks through the strength of the Byzantine Empire to the transformation of the empire into a modern Hellenic state.

[Vasconcelos]

Poor Austrians.

[Aramis]

http://www.torontorealtyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/hindsight.JPG

[Guapo]

I like to guess how things might have turned out if the Balkans never came under Ottoman rule. So, here I go.

But then the renaissance wouldn't have happened(Greek and non-Greek intellectuals that fueled it fled Constantinople to Italy) Columbus would never have set sail to find an alternate route to India etc. but yeah, poor Austrians. Fuck them anyway.

[Vasconcelos]

Portuguese sailors were exploring a way to India before Constantinople fell, it was the main reason we explored the (West) African coast, despite western maps saying the Indian Ocean was a closed sea. ;)

[mymy]

It happened what happened and we are where we are... unfortunately... and we can't change history, we should think about future. But anyway, i think we lost much because of Ottomans...

[Guapo]

Portuguese sailors were exploring a way to India before Constantinople fell, it was the main reason we explored the (West) African coast, despite western maps saying the Indian Ocean was a closed sea. ;)

And I guess you guys were keeping this a secrect too then eh?

[Vasconcelos]

And I guess you guys were keeping this a secrect too then eh?

Of course, we wanted the spicy food only for ourselves.

[Guapo]

Of course, we wanted the spicy food only for ourselves.

Hmm, what if the Portuguese found the Americas before that Wop and his Moorish sailors did? Now that's a whole new thread.

[Vasconcelos]

Some say the reason Portugal wanted to push the Tordesillas meridian further West was because sailors already had sighted South America. Anyway, it wouldn't change anything because we were only focused on India, South America was only important (for us) in the early years because of wood, sugar and jewgold came later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spain_and_Portugal.png



Anyway, sorry for the off-topic!

[Murphy]

[. . .]

I only disagree with you about Byzantium. It was going to collapse with or without Turkish expansion. The Norman presence in Sicily ensured that the Greeks would never gain southern Italy again. Strong Serbian and Bulgarian empires to the north would also have ensured that the Greek Corpse would continue to rot.

What would be very interesting to ponder on is in which direction would this Serbian Empire expand in? North and East or North and West?

[poiuytrewq0987]

I only disagree with you about Byzantium. It was going to collapse with or without Turkish expansion. The Norman presence in Sicily ensured that the Greeks would never gain southern Italy again. Strong Serbian and Bulgarian empires to the north would also have ensured that the Greek Corpse would continue to rot.

What would be very interesting to ponder on is in which direction would this Serbian Empire expand in? North and East or North and West?

LOL, what's with the anti-Hellenism I'm sensing?

[Guapo]

LOL, what's with the anti-Orthodoxy I'm sensing?

Fixed.

[Guapo]

What would be very interesting to ponder on is in which direction would this Serbian Empire expand in? North and East or North and West?

West. Bulgarians were much stronger than Serbia's western neighbors but then again the neighboring monarchies all fucked and married each other anyway. Paternal Grandma of Tvrtko of Bosnia was Serb for example. Hard to say. Probably a Yugoslavia would have emerged earlier.

[Murphy]

It's not anti-anythingism. It's just a simple fact. The Eastern Roman Empire was a shell of its former self. Technologically it was in a decline as the rest of the world advanced. It was being torn a part by infighting nobles politicked amongst themselves.

It's just the way the world works. Empires, nations.. they come and they go. Byzantium was on its way out. It wouldn't have still been around today.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think Turks are hot.

http://www.ozsohbet.net/guzeller/yelda_basaran.jpg

[Geto-Thracian]

Like the heartland of Romanians (Wallachia) would have ever been held by Bulgarians. Considering the capability for war we displayed against the Turks, Wallachia would be part of the free republic of eastern latins for sure!

Remember now, much of Bulgaria's military power came from their often allies--us Vlachs.

[Vasconcelos]

The Byzantine Empire started to crumble during the Byzantine-Sassanid war, it lasted from 502 to 628 CE, just a few years before the Arabs pushed in and took most of their lands in the East and North Africa. If they had no go to war with the Persians, there'd be a pretty good chance they'd be able to withstand the Moslem advance, and Islam could have remained a minor religion in the World for centuries more, perhaps even to today.

One has to ask, what if the Turks were never islamified, would they try to capture the Christian lands to the West? I suppose the religion factor wouldn't nearly as important, and even after losing the "holy land" and North Africa, they'd be able to keep Anatolia, which was very important because of the horses it provided for the Byzantines. They relied more on horses than the (West) Romans, who were better known for infantry tactics. In fact, Byzantine cataphracts (heavy cavalry) were so important they gave birth to the Western version of Chevaliers - knights.



Byzantines had outdated equipment in their later ages, not when the Turks attacked first. This was simply because they did not have the money after losing lands and wealth after their advance, for example they could not afford western cuirasses and had to rely on the lighter mail and chain armor, but this wasn't until the XIV century, by then they Byzantine was already doomed if the West wouldn't help them (which they didn't).

[Monolith]

Byzantium and Croatia-Hungary would have probably fought for domination over the Balkans for some time, like they did before the Ottomans destroyed Byzantium. With Byzantium gone the Ottoman Empire pretty much resumed its role as a major power seeking to dominate the Balkans, while the AH monarchy replaced Croatia-Hungary.

[Aramis]

Be afraid from the terror of the east, you south-eastern worms.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2357/2445774236_4966703545.jpg?v=0

Or like any balkanic state could had stood a chance against The Holy Empire from the west.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Quaterionenadler_David_de_Negker.svg

Any nation clinched between Germans and Turks is predestined for doom, sooner or later, one way or another.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I still feel this huge gaping hole resulting from the 500 years of Ottoman occupation of the Balkans. I still struggle with the fact the Turks successfully obliterated our nation who then proceeded with the occupation that lasted for 500 years. We survived the occupation but with heavy, irreparable wounds.

Every time I think about it, I feel this resentment, this rage, over the occupation, over the fact that we were deprived of many things. Our country went into decline, a civilization-destroying decline. We would have probably been larger population-wise, stronger, and a more unified mentality would have existed among the Balkan peoples compared to the great division that exists today resulting from 500 years of Islamic occupation.

We were deprived of normal civilization development because the Ottomans defeated the Byzantine Empire, the last guardian of Europe. With the guardian defeated they were free to ravage us, our people and it's that moment, I consider to be the beginning of a great fall that quickly paved way for a complete civilization decline of our people.

I can only imagine how different things could have been if the Ottomans never occupied us; but I can only use my imagination to see what could have been, not with actual events because we were denied of that. We could have become a great power in the Balkans, a stable country with good economy, prosperity commonplace and war over petty conflicts non-existent and identity crisis nations like FYROM would have never came to be.

[Geto-Thracian]

I still feel this huge gaping hole resulting from the 500 years of Ottoman occupation of the Balkans. I still struggle with the fact the Turks successfully obliterated our nation who then proceeded with the occupation that lasted for 500 years. We survived the occupation but with heavy, irreparable wounds.

Every time I think about it, I feel this resentment, this rage, over the occupation, over the fact that we were deprived of many things. Our country went into decline, a civilization-destroying decline. We would have probably been larger population-wise, stronger, and a more unified mentality would have existed among the Balkan peoples compared to the great division that exists today resulting from 500 years of Islamic occupation.

We were deprived of normal civilization development because the Ottomans defeated the Byzantine Empire, the last guardian of Europe. With the guardian defeated they were free to ravage us, our people and it's that moment, I consider to be the beginning of a great fall that quickly paved way for a complete civilization decline of our people.

I can only imagine how different things could have been if the Ottomans never occupied us; but I can only use my imagination to see what could have been, not with actual events because we were denied of that. We could have become a great power in the Balkans, a stable country with good economy, prosperity commonplace and war over petty conflicts non-existent and identity crisis nations like FYROM would have never came to be.

Umm...and this balkan nation is??:confused:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Umm...and this balkan nation is??:confused:

I was talking about the Serbian nation but I appreciate your oh so insightful input.

[Geto-Thracian]

I was talking about the Serbian nation but I appreciate your oh so insightful input.


Some of us backward newbies have yet to get wind of your global influence and forum-fame. Sometimes we require actually reminding us of your nationality as you are not yet a house-hold name that needs no introduction!

Everything you said could apply to a handful of balkan nations, your holiness--please forgive my intransigence....and please don't hit me!

(meekly prostrates himself and comes near losing control of his bowels in terror at having slighted his superior royal Serbian highness)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Some of us backward newbies have yet to get wind of your global influence and forum-fame. Sometimes we require actually reminding us of your nationality as you are not yet a house-hold name that needs no introduction!

Everything you said could apply to a handful of balkan nations, your holiness--please forgive my intransigence....and please don't hit me!

(meekly prostrates himself and comes near losing control of his bowels in terror at having slighted his superior royal Serbian highness)

Fuck you.

[Geto-Thracian]

Fuck you.

Right back at you, your snottiness.....mine was a simple request of clarification--quite simple!

See you sunday in church!

[Gaztelu]

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5604/balkans.jpg

Where are the Albanians?

[Vasconcelos]

Where are the Albanians?

The who?




sorry

[The Journeyman]

The Bulgars would be speaking Serbian today.

[Gaztelu]

The who?




sorry

Without them, there wouldn't be any kick-ass picnics like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23817).

[ppprat]

The Bulgars would be speaking Serbian today.

Haha. Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder.

And I can't help but laugh at the OP's map. The Serbian bias in it is painfully obvious.

The thing is, if the Ottoman empire never existed, the Byzantine empire wouldn't have ceased to exist, and the Balkan culture would have had a lot more cultural influence from the Latins and the Greeks.
Supposing that the region was to be independant, I think the slavs would have united. We're close culturally, and for some reason, the idea of a democratic and civilized Southern Slavic federation pleases me. If south slaves unite, they can achieve so much, yet the Yugoslavs decided that they should put everyone against each other and see what happens. Now, instead of helping each other out, people are still stuck in the past and have redicilous territorial demands from their neighbours (the OP is case in point - ballooned serbian territory, gave Wallachia to Bulgaria, took away Macedonia and Thrace from Bulgaria, and the list goes on). And then there are the made up nations, like FYROM, who are stealing Greek/Bulgarian history and Serbian/Bulgarian language.

I'm all for white nationalism, and I encourage patrotism, but racism and xenophobia between Balkan states is a crime of the highest caliber for me. We've been fighting the turks for 500 years together solidarily, and nowadays some people are just ruining everything. A couple of bad politicians in the 1885-1920 timespan on both the Bulgarian and Serbian side was enough to ruin a lifetime of brotherhood.

This is why we can't have nice things.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/picard_facepalm.jpg

[Stears]

Without ottomans, the balkan became a Hungarian province. Because the extremly rare population density of balkan countries, the late nomadic lifestyle of the vast majority of the orthodox balkan slavic people, and signifficantly lower technological social level and development of the region.

[Szegedist]

Without ottomans, the balkan became a Hungarian province. Because the extremly rare population density of balkan countries, the late nomadic lifestyle of the vast majority of the orthodox balkan slavic people, and signifficantly lower technological social level and development of the region.

I think you are right. If the Ottomans never arrived, Hungary would have expanded it's influenced over the Balkan more and more.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

One word: Timur

He was already succesful in conquering Anatolia and after Ankara war Ottomans position became shaky but thanks to your ancestors ,Ottomans gain weight in Anatolia once more ,because they were strong in Balkans.

I would prefer Timur.Ottomans have too much soft spot for foreign people .

[morski]

The Renaissance begins in the Balkans instead of Italy.

[Lorik]

Everything would be better. :(
I prefer any other European power to dominate balkans over asiatic invaders.

[Onur]

One word: Timur

He was already succesful in conquering Anatolia and after Ankara war Ottomans position became shaky but thanks to your ancestors ,Ottomans gain weight in Anatolia once more ,because they were strong in Balkans.

I would prefer Timur.Ottomans have too much soft spot for foreign people .
Yes, after Ottoman empire lost the battle vs Timur, Serbian king Lazarevic saved the Ottoman monarchy by escaping with Bayazit`s sons to Belgrad :)

Btw, if Timur would wipe out Ottoman dynasty back in 1403 AD, then i am sure about one thing; There wouldn't be any christian element in Anatolia and Balkans in a decade at most. He would wipe out all the christians in few years for sure.

[Vasconcelos]

You guys are improving your necromancy skills, I'm starting to be afraid.

[Szegedist]

Yes, after Ottoman empire lost the battle vs Timur, Serbian king Lazarevic saved the Ottoman monarchy by escaping with Bayazit`s sons to Belgrad :)

Btw, if Timur would wipe out Ottoman dynasty back in 1403 AD, then i am sure about one thing; There wouldn't be any christian element in Anatolia and Balkans in a decade at most. He would wipe out all the christians in few years for sure.

This goes to show what I always thought. Only Turanic people can kick the ass of other Turanic people.
In the middle ages Hungary was a very strong state, we repelled many attacks by the Holy Roman Empire, and the non Germanic neigbours did not even dare to attack us because they know what would have happened. Then came the Mongols and that proved a real challenge. Then the Turks, them too were a tough opponent.
Same thing goes for Turks, the Timurids gave you one hell of a run.

This is why, despite the Ottomans practically destroying our Kingdom, i have more respect for them than some sneaky Serb or Wallachian which sucked the Entente to give them Hungarian land.

[Peikko]

The Balkans haven't been under Ottoman rule for how long now? Over a hundred years?

And it's still not working. They should stop blaming the Turks and each other and focus on building their societies.

[Szegedist]

The Balkans haven't been under Ottoman rule for how long now? Over a hundred years?

And it's still not working. They should stop blaming the Turks and each other and focus on building their societies.

I don't want to make excuses for them, but Communism did not give them a chance to recover fully, this goes for the non-Yugo nations.
Yugoslavia has life standards comparable to Western Europe, but this went up in flames during the war.

[Insuperable]

Ottomans and Balkans, its becoming f*cking boring

[Magnus Maximus]

The Slavs in the Balkans were always weak-this is plain silly. The Austrians unchecked by the Turks would have taken what they wanted in the area. As you recall at one time the Franks under Charlemagne spread all the way to Croatia (Remember the tributary Slavic states of the East March).

At one time the Venetian empire included the parts of the Dalmatian coast, parts of Greece and Crete
As for the Serbs-have they ever won a war????? They were pretty much subjugated by everyone at one time.

In the future you would have the Hapburgs bordering the Byzantines, had the Turks never invaded. The Balkan states could not defeat the Turks, the Germanic states in the Northern Slavic states could, and did. That should be proof enough.

[Peikko]

I don't want to make excuses for them, but Communism did not give them a chance to recover fully, this goes for the non-Yugo nations.
Yugoslavia has life standards comparable to Western Europe, but this went up in flames during the war.

Yeah, I agree. Yugos were very advanced and the people I've met from ex-Yugo-countries usually think, that the break up was just politics. The ones I've met have always been ok with the other Balkan nationalities, so for me it's kinda surprising to see so much hate between them here at TA. I've met people from Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia.

[Peikko]

Ottomans and Balkans, its becoming f*cking boring

It's been boring for quite awhile.

[Szegedist]

The Slavs in the Balkans were always weak-this is plain silly. The Austrians unchecked by the Turks would have taken what they wanted in the area. As you recall at one time the Franks under Charlemagne spread all the way to Croatia (Remember the tributary Slavic states of the East March).

At one time the Venetian empire included the parts of the Dalmatian coast, parts of Greece and Crete
As for the Serbs-have they ever won a war????? They were pretty much subjugated by everyone at one time.

In the future you would have the Hapburgs bordering the Byzantines, had the Turks never invaded. The Balkan states could not defeat the Turks, the Germanic states in the Northern Slavic states could, and did. That should be proof enough.

Conclusion: Ones that lived further away from the Ottomans had it easier than the ones that lived right next to them. Thank you.

What next, Iceland is the strongest because no single Ottoman managed to cross their borders?

[Dengizik]

Conclusion: Ones that lived further away from the Ottomans had it easier than the ones that lived right next to them. Thank you.

What next, Iceland is the strongest because no single Ottoman managed to cross their borders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimaey :p

[Szegedist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimaey :p

I learn something new every day :D

[Magnus Maximus]

Well I believe it was 1529 when the Turks outnumbered the hre 7 to 1 and lost. The Turks were defeated at the gates of v. I have a theory had the true Turk armies attacked it would have been harder for the Germans to beat them but once they filled up with jannisaries from the Balkans their army went to crap

[Magnus Maximus]

Also wasn't Austria on the border of the Ottoman Empire?

[Szegedist]

Also wasn't Austria on the border of the Ottoman Empire?

Austria was involved only since 1526 onwards. I wonder how they would have fared if Austria was in the Balkan a lot closer to the action.
Plus without Polish aid they would have lost.


Croat weakness
Siege of Kőszeg
Croatian Captain Nikola Jurišić (Hungarian: Miklós Jurisics), defended the small border fort of Kőszeg with only 700-800 Croatian soldiers, with no cannons and few guns.[1] The defenders prevented the advance of the Ottoman army of 120,000-200,000 toward Vienna, under the leadership of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (Ottoman Turkish: سليمان Süleymān) and Pargalı Ibrahim Pasha

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_G%C3%BCns

[Magnus Maximus]

First off byz fell in 1453 so 1526 not that far off. Second the poles helped in the1600's the hre was fighting the Turks 100 yrs before the poles helped

As for the Croats A great people I think highly of the Croats but they aren't really Slavs are they they were goths and franks and other Germanic tribes.

Of the time I spent in the Balkans I enjoyed the Croats they are good folk

[Magnus Maximus]

Austria was in the action the Turks were always stopped there

[Magnus Maximus]

Further Croatia was part of the Hapsburg empire at the time

[Szegedist]

First off byz fell in 1453 so 1526 not that far off. Second the poles helped in the1600's the hre was fighting the Turks 100 yrs before the poles helped

As for the Croats A great people I think highly of the Croats but they aren't really Slavs are they they were goths and franks and other Germanic tribes.

Of the time I spent in the Balkans I enjoyed the Croats they are good folk
Croats are not Germanics, that is something Pavelic said to make Nazis support them more.


Austria was in the action the Turks were always stopped there
The Austrians are one of the reasons why the Ottomans got as far as they did in the first place. Where were they before 1526? Sitting on their ass?

[Permafrost]

A modern day estimation of how would the Balkans looked like in 2013, were it not for Ottoman yoke -

http://foftw.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/future-city-5-web.jpg

[morski]

The Slavs in the Balkans were always weak-this is plain silly. The Austrians unchecked by the Turks would have taken what they wanted in the area. As you recall at one time the Franks under Charlemagne spread all the way to Croatia (Remember the tributary Slavic states of the East March).

At one time the Venetian empire included the parts of the Dalmatian coast, parts of Greece and Crete
As for the Serbs-have they ever won a war????? They were pretty much subjugated by everyone at one time.

In the future you would have the Hapburgs bordering the Byzantines, had the Turks never invaded. The Balkan states could not defeat the Turks, the Germanic states in the Northern Slavic states could, and did. That should be proof enough.

In Croatia the Franks were met and beaten by the FBE.

[Magnus Maximus]

Croats are not Germanics, that is something Pavelic said to make Nazis support them more.


The Austrians are one of the reasons why the Ottomans got as far as they did in the first place. Where were they before 1526? Sitting on their ass?

Well where did the Goths go? Did they disappear? The Croatians definitely have Germanic Blood-First from the Goths, then from the Franks, later from the Austrians. Even the proponents of a Slav History say the Croats came from Silesia-which is really in the Celto-Germanic-Slavic (parts of Germany, Czech R and Poland) contact area.

De Administrando Imperio also mentions they defeated the Avars and settled on their own accord after migrating from an area near today's Silesia. This record is supported by the writings of one Thomas the archdeacon, Historia Salonitana from the 13th century.

They are definitely not the same people as the Serbs- From the time I spent in the area you could definitely tell a Serb from a Croat-first in the way they spoke. The Serbs got the typical eastern Slav "stone faced" expressionless mask when they talked. The Croats had emotion in their face like the Austrians’ and southern Germanics. The Croats had lighter skin and eyes. Both my Croat interpreters were blond haired and blue eyed. The Croats had a sense of humor, the Serbs were dour. The Croats stayed Roman Catholic, the Serbs EO. The Croats are really typical Western Europeans (maybe that’s why Croatia recovered so fast from the Balkan wars) and the Serbs are eastern Europeans.

Further the Croats always looked West-not east-They chose to join the Hapsburgs:

[I]The Croatian historical narrative insists that the decision to join the Habsburg Empire was the result of a free choice made by the Sabor.[21] Austrian historians never claimed they conquered Croatia by force and there appears to be little reason to doubt Croatian claims about the events of 1526

Bottom Line- Croatia was pretty much all Goth until around 620 when the Croatians came from an area that was really Celto-Germanic, much like the Czechs and Boi, but were influenced by Slavic neighbors in Poland. Conquered and mixed with the Goths, later were absorbed into and mixed with the Franks later to break away, and then unite with the Hapsburgs. The Croatian may have some Slav but they are more Germanic/Celto Germanic than Slav-- All around a great people

Which is once again why I think they recovered from the Balkan wars quickly.

[Magnus Maximus]

In Croatia the Franks were met and beaten by the FBE.

Most maps I have seen state the Franks held the Dalmation Coast, expaned to the Sava River The Croats joined with the Franks and fromed the Duchy (later the Kingdom) of Croats. The FBE never beat the Franks past the Sava

[morski]

Most maps I have seen state the Franks held the Dalmation Coast, expaned to the Sava River The Croats joined with the Franks and fromed the Duchy (later the Kingdom) of Croats. The FBE never beat the Franks past the Sava

There were some border clashes along the Drava in 827, in which the Bulgarians prevailed.

[Magnus Maximus]

There were some border clashes along the Drava in 827, in which the Bulgarians prevailed.

I am sure they were, and I am sure the Franks won sometimes and the Bulgars won sometimes it is the way of war

[Szegedist]

Well where did the Goths go? Did they disappear? The Croatians definitely have Germanic Blood-First from the Goths, then from the Franks, later from the Austrians. Even the proponents of a Slav History say the Croats came from Silesia-which is really in the Celto-Germanic-Slavic (parts of Germany, Czech R and Poland) contact area.

De Administrando Imperio also mentions they defeated the Avars and settled on their own accord after migrating from an area near today's Silesia. This record is supported by the writings of one Thomas the archdeacon, Historia Salonitana from the 13th century.

They are definitely not the same people as the Serbs- From the time I spent in the area you could definitely tell a Serb from a Croat-first in the way they spoke. The Serbs got the typical eastern Slav "stone faced" expressionless mask when they talked. The Croats had emotion in their face like the Austrians’ and southern Germanics. The Croats had lighter skin and eyes. Both my Croat interpreters were blond haired and blue eyed. The Croats had a sense of humor, the Serbs were dour. The Croats stayed Roman Catholic, the Serbs EO. The Croats are really typical Western Europeans (maybe that’s why Croatia recovered so fast from the Balkan wars) and the Serbs are eastern Europeans.

Further the Croats always looked West-not east-They chose to join the Hapsburgs:

[I]The Croatian historical narrative insists that the decision to join the Habsburg Empire was the result of a free choice made by the Sabor.[21] Austrian historians never claimed they conquered Croatia by force and there appears to be little reason to doubt Croatian claims about the events of 1526

Bottom Line- Croatia was pretty much all Goth until around 620 when the Croatians came from an area that was really Celto-Germanic, much like the Czechs and Boi, but were influenced by Slavic neighbors in Poland. Conquered and mixed with the Goths, later were absorbed into and mixed with the Franks later to break away, and then unite with the Hapsburgs. The Croatian may have some Slav but they are more Germanic/Celto Germanic than Slav-- All around a great people

Which is once again why I think they recovered from the Balkan wars quickly.


Croatia became part of the Habsburg empire through Pacta conventa, which meant that King of Hungary = King of Croatia.
Since the Habsburg inherited the Hungarian throne, Habsburgs became Kings of Hungary, thus by extension Kings of Croatia too.

The reasons they supported the Habsburgs later on was due to religion. Much of Hungary became Protestant, so they had warmer feelings about Catholic Austria, and supported them. Nothing about them being "Germanics in denial".

Sure they were influenced by Germanics, and there was Germanic input into their blood, but that does not mean they are Germanics, because neither genetically, culturally, linguistically are they Germanic.

As for South Germanics, especially the Austrians were influenced by Slavs. Historically the two groups mutually influenced each other, leading to many similarities today.

[Stears]

I don't want to make excuses for them, but Communism did not give them a chance to recover fully, this goes for the non-Yugo nations.
Yugoslavia has life standards comparable to Western Europe, but this went up in flames during the war.

The west (USA UK France( supported yugo by large and cheap loans, due to yugo were politically unfriendly with soviets for a long time.

[Szegedist]

The west (USA UK France( supported yugo by large and cheap loans, due to yugo were politically unfriendly with soviets for a long time.

Yes I know... Kádár sadly also took out lots of loans, to make this socialism "work".

[Magnus Maximus]

Croatia became part of the Habsburg empire through Pacta conventa, which meant that King of Hungary = King of Croatia.
Since the Habsburg inherited the Hungarian throne, Habsburgs became Kings of Hungary, thus by extension Kings of Croatia too.

The reasons they supported the Habsburgs later on was due to religion. Much of Hungary became Protestant, so they had warmer feelings about Catholic Austria, and supported them. Nothing about them being "Germanics in denial".

Sure they were influenced by Germanics, and there was Germanic input into their blood, but that does not mean they are Germanics, because neither genetically, culturally, linguistically are they Germanic.

As for South Germanics, especially the Austrians were influenced by Slavs. Historically the two groups mutually influenced each other, leading to many similarities today.

Two things in you statement I disagree with first off Hungary was majority Catholic you said much of Hungary was protestant.

Which is right and wrong. At first the Protestants made large gains in Hungary, but by the mid to late 16th century Hungary was majority Catholic again. Mostly thanks to the Jesuits and the counter reformation. Wjich leads to Hungary having 5.5M Catholics and 1.9m Pros. or 54% Catholic 19.5% Pro

Second Croatia had already split with Hungary before they joined the Hapsburgs. After Louis 2 died in mOhacs Hungarian rule in Croatia ended. Croatia declared that Fedinand of Austriawas King.

Finally on the ethnic make up of the Croats-They are more German than Slav- First of the Goths were there.

The Croats came from the same are as the Boii A Celto germanic Tribe- That were from the celtic Hallstatt area.

If you want my opinion the orginal Croats were already Germano Celtic (but spoke slavic becuase their Neighbors did) Mixed with the Germanic Goths, later Mixed with franks and Austrians.

Further: Large area of Croatia were settled by Knight Hospitaler and Knights Templar to help keep the turks out, they brought realtives and large households with them.

Last but not least of you look at genetic typing the Croats are closer related to Swedes than Angles, Juts or Saxons-The Goths came from Sweeden

The Croats are more germanic and Celtic than Slav

[Szegedist]

Two things in you statement I disagree with first off Hungary was majority Catholic you said much of Hungary was protestant.

Which is right and wrong. At first the Protestants made large gains in Hungary, but by the mid to late 16th century Hungary was majority Catholic again. Mostly thanks to the Jesuits and the counter reformation. Wjich leads to Hungary having 5.5M Catholics and 1.9m Pros. or 54% Catholic 19.5%

Protestant reformation began after 1526. They are thought to have formed the majority of the country by the end of the 16th century. Counter Reformation began only in the 17th century, but there was a significant Protestant population afterwards.




Finally on the ethnic make up of the Croats-They are more German than Slav- First of the Goths were there.

The Croats came from the same are as the Boii A Celto germanic Tribe- That were from the celtic Hallstatt area.

If you want my opinion the orginal Croats were already Germano Celtic (but spoke slavic becuase their Neighbors did) Mixed with the Germanic Goths, later Mixed with franks and Austrians.

Further: Large area of Croatia were settled by Knight Hospitaler and Knights Templar to help keep the turks out, they brought realtives and large households with them.

Last but not least of you look at genetic typing the Croats are closer related to Swedes than Angles, Juts or Saxons-The Goths came from Sweeden

The Croats are more germanic and Celtic than Slav
Do you have genetic backup to prove this? Or is it just speculation?

[Magnus Maximus]

Counter reformation began in 1548


As for the Gentic make up of Croats If you like at the Y dist they are closey releated to interior swedes

[Szegedist]

Counter reformation began in 1548
In Hungary it was in the 17th century.



As for the Gentic make up of Croats If you like at the Y dist they are closey releated to interior swedes
I1 is not the same as I2.

[Queen B]

If the Balkans never came under Ottoman rule.....

.... They would have progressed instead of looking as backward as they are today

[Dacul]

If the Balkans never came under Ottoman rule.....

.... They would have progressed instead of looking as backward as they are today

Well guess from where Ottoman turks inherited the bribery system.
Let me see with whom they entered into contact and what they were:
So they were east asians and entered into contact first with Caucasians and after with people from Byzantine Empire.
Now east asians,not using bribes,neither Caucasians.
People from Byzantine Empire were roughly composed of thracians,old greeks and people and colonists brought from Roman Empire.
Is is written anywhere at old greeks about bribery?
No.
At thracians ?
No.

So is kind of clear from where Ottoman Empire took the bribery thingy,from Roman Empire also this bribery system remained in Greece,Bulgaria,Romania since in Italy&Spain they got Gothic leading class and these people were very correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Roman_Empire#Dynasty_of_the_Angeloi
It is known that one of the most important causes of the decline of Roman Empire was widespread corruption.Which transmitted to Byzantine Empire.
(you can see here that in Byzantine Empire,before the Turks conquered them hat the custom to sell offices.Which was inherited from Roman Empire)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Roman_Empire#364.E2.80.93392:_Valen tinian_dynasty
Here you can see how a Roman Emperor bribed 2 legions managing to conquer like this Constantinopole.

[Queen B]

Dacul, so much irrelevant shit , so much :picard2:

[Dacul]

Dacul, so much irrelevant shit , so much :picard2:

Oh really,when I come and show with facts that corruption was widespread in Ottoman Empire,before the Turks conquered them is "irrelevant shit"?
It is actually Byzantine Empire from which Turks got this system with bribery and not reversed.
Which corruption have got into Byzantine Empire from Roman Empire,since Byzantine Empire was the continuation of Roman Empire.
But Italy and Spain and Portugal had the good fact they were conquered by Goths and got Gothic leading class.

[Queen B]

Oh really,when I come and show with facts that corruption was widespread in Ottoman Empire,before the Turks conquered them is "irrelevant shit"?
It is actually Byzantine Empire from which Turks got this system with bribery and not reversed.

Of course its irrelevant.:picard2: You think its bribery what makes Balkans being backward? You think there is no corruption in other countries, and this is the problem?

Balkans did NOT advance under Ottomans. What about Arts? Painters, Poetry, Sculpture, texts, music?
What about trade and economy? What about culture?
Nothing .

[Twistedmind]

Oh really,when I come and show with facts that corruption was widespread in Ottoman Empire,before the Turks conquered them is "irrelevant shit"?
It is actually Byzantine Empire from which Turks got this system with bribery and not reversed.
Which corruption have got into Byzantine Empire from Roman Empire,since Byzantine Empire was the continuation of Roman Empire.
But Italy and Spain and Portugal had the good fact they were conquered by Goths and got Gothic leading class.
Byzantine Empire was hundred thousand light years above Gothic Kingdoms. Acctually, Goths, altough not worst, ruined a lot.

Anyway, just one example, before Ottoman arrived, Serbia has richest city in Europe, Novo Brdo with rich silver mines. It was giving profit to Serbian despote in ammount of 200,000 Venetian golden ducats annualy (just for comparsion Entire Dalmatia, with few verr prosperous cities and of big strategic significance was sold for 100,000 ducats, you realise that 200,000 a year is astronomic ammount for 15 century). In few decades, Ottomans downgraded city wich had 40,000 population to small and insignificant fortress.
Wonder what Onur has to say :laugh:

[Dacul]

Byzantine Empire was hundred thousand light years above Gothic Kingdoms. Acctually, Goths, altough not worst, ruined a lot.

Anyway, just one example, before Ottoman arrived, Serbia has richest city in Europe, Novo Brdo with rich silver mines. It was giving profit to Serbian despote in ammount of 200,000 Venetian golden ducats annualy (just for comparsion Entire Dalmatia, with few verr prosperous cities and of big strategic significance was sold for 100,000 ducats, you realise that 200,000 a year is astronomic ammount for 15 century). In few decades, Ottomans downgraded city wich had 40,000 population to small and insignificant fortress.
Wonder what Onur has to say :laugh:

I think that happened because the silver from there just went very few.
I mean,is logical a mine is not lasting forever.

[Dacul]

Of course its irrelevant.:picard2: You think its bribery what makes Balkans being backward? You think there is no corruption in other countries, and this is the problem?

Balkans did NOT advance under Ottomans. What about Arts? Painters, Poetry, Sculpture, texts, music?
What about trade and economy? What about culture?
Nothing .
Corruption is what makes Greece to be backwards.Considering how smart at learning is average greek,it could be equal to Scandinavia,as living level.
I know that average greek is very educated,he knows to speak english fluent,is smart etc.
As for ex-Yugo&Albania,is their fanatism which makes them backwards.
Bulgaria,lack of good education.
I have talked to Greeks which emigrated to Scandinavia,very smart people,complaining that in their country could not find jobs,because how much everything is on relations,while in Scandinavia they got very good jobs.

[Twistedmind]

But silver coul still be found arround there. :D Anyway, Ottomans were using mines up till 17.th century when Serbs and Austrians destryoed mines, but rich and powerfull city was ruined before 50 years of Ottoman rule.

[Dacul]

Well Romania was never under the rule of Ottoman Empire,do you see Romania as very advanced compared to Bulgaria?
:laugh:
In fact Greece is still most advanced country from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

[Magnus Maximus]

In Hungary it was in the 17th century.



I1 is not the same as I2.

In Hungary it streched from 1550 completing in the late 1600's so both the 16th and 17th century-- The Roman Catholic Church considered Hungary a missonary area until the 17th century not becuase of protestantism becuase of the influx of Islam

Here is a book on it

The Early Counter Reformation in Hungary: Jesuits,Papal Nuncios and the Hungarian Lands,1550-1606

Andrea Pontecorvo Martonffy

Seesm to me I have seen a lot of Maps with I2 also being in Northern German and in Sweeden also along with I1

But I think a lot of the genectics stuff is a bit new agey anyway, so I am no expert

[Szegedist]

In Hungary it streched from 1550 completing in the late 1600's so both the 16th and 17th century-- The Roman Catholic Church considered Hungary a missonary area until the 17th century not becuase of protestantism becuase of the influx of Islam

Here is a book on it

The Early Counter Reformation in Hungary: Jesuits,Papal Nuncios and the Hungarian Lands,1550-1606

Andrea Pontecorvo Martonffy
The Counter Reformation lasted much longer than 1606.
This is partly what the Kuruc uprisings were about. The first one was in 1672, and last one ended in 1711. Hungary did not have a Catholic majority in the mid 16th century. Only around 17th century and later.


Seesm to me I have seen a lot of Maps with I2 also being in Northern German and in Sweeden also along with I1

I2:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

I1
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

[legolasbozo]

The most important thing is industrial revolution, and many balkan countris just gain their independence right after industrial revolution. So i m really wondering what you guys did since then? İ think you just wanted to find a skapegoat for your lazyness, your failure. You were lapdog of ottoman empire before and now European Union. Sorry but this is your nature, ruled by somebodyelse and serving them. There were janissary system in ottoman times and today i see immigrants from balkans to western europe, i don't see much difference, do you?

[Dacul]

Szegedist, people from Oltenia county,from Romania have 10% I1-M253 on paternal lines.
That map is not good.
People from Eastern Europe do not want to accept it,but we all have at least some Scando ancestry.
Other people are very proud of it,but here is not like that.

[Szegedist]

Szegedist, people from Oltenia county,from Romania have 10% I1-M253 on paternal lines.
That map is not good.
People from Eastern Europe do not want to accept it,but we all have at least some Scando ancestry.
Other people are very proud of it,but here is not like that.

And your sources are?

[Dacul]

And your sources are?

There is a genetic study made in July 2012,I will search and give the link.
And for your info,most of Hungary genetics is coming from goths,ostrogoths,visigoths&gepids.
(they were not bearing only I1-M253 but R1B branches also and who knows what other Y DNA ).
I am pretty sure there are places in Hungary where I1-M253 reaches even 15%.

[Szegedist]

Well Romania was never under the rule of Ottoman Empire,do you see Romania as very advanced compared to Bulgaria?
:laugh:
In fact Greece is still most advanced country from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

Romania is a historically backward country, but remember that Greeks did not have Ceaucescu. This helped them a bit.

If Greece was part of the Eastern Block, it would be poorer than it is now, and that is a fact.

[Szegedist]

The most important thing is industrial revolution, and many balkan countris just gain their independence right after industrial revolution. So i m really wondering what you guys did since then? İ think you just wanted to find a skapegoat for your lazyness, your failure. You were lapdog of ottoman empire before and now European Union. Sorry but this is your nature, ruled by somebodyelse and serving them. There were janissary system in ottoman times and today i see immigrants from balkans to western europe, i don't see much difference, do you?

I don't want to make excuses for them, because much of the Balkan(not all) was backward compared to the Catholic world. However after the first Balkan War you had the second Balkan War, then soon after you had WW1, then WW2, and then came commies. The combination of massive human casualties, material losses, money spent rebuilding infrastructure, over and over again, something Scandinavia for example did not have to do, set the region back.


There was not much breathing space for them. The opportunity came after the fall of the Iron Curtain, but the entire Eastern Block screwed this up by liberalizing too quickly, and rushing to attempt to build fragile democracies without knowing how to.

I would say its partly their fault, and part external fault.

[dado]

balkanians are bunch of ingrates...we did so many good things for them

1.we learn them to take bath more than once a year
2.we in reached their cuisine
3.we spared them from wars in period of 400 years
4.we brought them true religion etc
5.with our arrival balkan people came out of dark ages
6.our medicine was on much higher level...so we build countless of hastahanas all over balkan........ etc

[kabeiros]

If Greece was part of the Eastern Block, it would be poorer than it is now, and that is a fact. Hmm, wannabe Turk butthurt because Hungary is lower than Greece. Typical.

[o__o]

balkanians are bunch of ingrates...we did so many good things for them

1.we learn them to take bath more than once a year
2.we in reached their cuisine
3.we spared them from wars in period of 400 years
4.we brought them true religion etc
5.with our arrival balkan people came out of dark ages
6.our medicine was on much higher level...so we build countless of hastahanas all over balkan........ etc

You're a Turk?

[dado]

You're a Turk?

well if it is easie for u to understand,u can call me turk...but i like to claim ottoman ancestry

[Szegedist]

Hmm, wannabe Turk butthurt because Hungary is lower than Greece. Typical.

Not butthurt (I dont take it up the ass like Greeks), just saying reality. Compare North Korea to South Korea. Same race, same genes, culture, etc, just separated by two different regimes, and huge differences in life quality and economy.

[o__o]

well if it is easie for u to understand,u can call me turk...but i like to claim ottoman ancestry

I read Bosniac on your profile so i wondered.

[dado]

bosniacs are ottomans...hope everything clear now

[legolasbozo]

I don't want to make excuses for them, because much of the Balkan(not all) was backward compared to the Catholic world. However after the first Balkan War you had the second Balkan War, then soon after you had WW1, then WW2, and then came commies. The combination of massive human casualties, material losses, money spent rebuilding infrastructure, over and over again, something Scandinavia for example did not have to do, set the region back.


There was not much breathing space for them. The opportunity came after the fall of the Iron Curtain, but the entire Eastern Block screwed this up by liberalizing too quickly, and rushing to attempt to build fragile democracies without knowing how to.

I would say its partly their fault, and part external fault.

İ guess you know what did germany after WW2? No need to go far, just look at South korea? Even Turkey made a lot of progress for 10 years. There were 3 theme park construction in Turkey right now, one is opening at 29 may, with 7th fastest roller coaster of europe. İ didn't count "hollywood on bosphorus" project by universal studios, because it is just a project for now. İ m sure they still have an excuses, population maybe. Just look at this form, balkan members mindset. Everybody against each other, there is no need to find an enemy or excuse, they should look at the mirror.

[Szegedist]

İ guess you know what did germany after WW2? No need to go far, just look at South korea? Even Turkey made a lot of progress for 10 years. There were 3 theme park construction in Turkey right now, one is opening at 29 may, with 7th fastest roller coaster of europe. İ didn't count "hollywood on bosphorus" project by universal studios, because it is just a project for now. İ m sure they still have an excuses, population maybe. Just look at this form, balkan members mindset. Everybody against each other, there is no need to find an enemy or excuse, they should look at the mirror.

I know what West Germany did after WW2, while East Germany is something else. Why do you think many tried to escape across the Berlin wall? Former East Germany is still much poorer than West Germany.

As far as South Korea goes, what about North Korea? Exactly the same people, different politics. If North Korea became capitalist now, it would still be much poorer than its Southern counterpart.

[Dacul]

South Korea is one of the most developed countries in the world,while North Korea barely have what to eat.
:laugh:
Exactly same people.

[Twistedmind]

Discussion here turned to comedy. Lol

[Dacul]

No it does not,you are loving communists and you do not like that Szegedist proved very well how bad communism did to Balkan countries.
I think communist regime did a lot more harm to Romania,than Ottoman Empire did.
Same about Serbia.
(communist regime did a lot more harm to Serbia,that Ottoman Empire did).

[Magnus Maximus]

The Counter Reformation lasted much longer than 1606.
This is partly what the Kuruc uprisings were about. The first one was in 1672, and last one ended in 1711. Hungary did not have a Catholic majority in the mid 16th century. Only around 17th century and later.

]

Well that flies in the face of every book I have read. There may have been uprsings but they were by minority protestants. I hate to argue with you about tyour own countries history but the counter reformation ended at the conclusion of the 30yrs war. I didn't say ut ended in 1606 that is just when it was going on in Hungary--Technnically the CR ended in 1648

The Counter-Reformation (also the Catholic Revival[1] or Catholic Reformation) was the period of Catholic revival beginning with the Council of Trent (1545–1563) and ending at the close of the Thirty Years' War (1648),

I have seen maps showing I2 in Northern Europe, I will have to find them again.

[Stears]

In Hungary it streched from 1550 completing in the late 1600's so both the 16th and 17th century-- The Roman Catholic Church considered Hungary a missonary area until the 17th century not becuase of protestantism becuase of the influx of Islam

Here is a book on it

The Early Counter Reformation in Hungary: Jesuits,Papal Nuncios and the Hungarian Lands,1550-1606

Andrea Pontecorvo Martonffy

Seesm to me I have seen a lot of Maps with I2 also being in Northern German and in Sweeden also along with I1

But I think a lot of the genectics stuff is a bit new agey anyway, so I am no expert

You forgot the fact that there were no Hungarian majority in the Ottoman occupied Hungarian zones, due to the Ottoman conquest: 90% of the Hungarian population fled to Northern and Western Habsburg-ruled regions and others migrated to partium between 1541-1590 period

[Stears]

Hahahaha :) Until the late 15th century the vast majority of the population slavic balkan orthodox countries lived shepherd nomadic lifestyle when Western European powers discovered America....



Byzantine Empire was hundred thousand light years above Gothic Kingdoms. Acctually, Goths, altough not worst, ruined a lot.

Anyway, just one example, before Ottoman arrived, Serbia has richest city in Europe, Novo Brdo with rich silver mines. It was giving profit to Serbian despote in ammount of 200,000 Venetian golden ducats annualy (just for comparsion Entire Dalmatia, with few verr prosperous cities and of big strategic significance was sold for 100,000 ducats, you realise that 200,000 a year is astronomic ammount for 15 century). In few decades, Ottomans downgraded city wich had 40,000 population to small and insignificant fortress.
Wonder what Onur has to say :laugh:

[el22]

I like to guess how things might have turned out if the Balkans never came under Ottoman rule. So, here I go.

The three core Balkan powers (Serbian, Bulgarian and Byzantine Empires) would have probably stayed powerful up to this day.

:rotfl:

[Hoca]

A homeless person also blames to whole world for his misfortunes, instead of getting his ass up and getting to work to improve his life... nuff said.

[Stears]

You are wrong. Habsburgs treated Croatia as part of Hungary (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lands_of_the_Crown_of_Saint_Stephen) after Mohács.

King Louis II died at Mohács, and in 1527, and the Hungarian parliament elected János Szapolyai as the new king of Hungary. Another Hungarian parliament elected Ferdinand Habsburg as King of Hungary.

Habsburg Monarchy/Habsburg Empire , there were no such a state or entity, the contemporary people simply did not understand this term. The Habsburg monarchs became King of Croatia automatically after the coronation with the Holy Crown of Saint Stephen.

WHY?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg_monarchy

"Habsburg Empire/Monarchy is an unofficial appellation amongst historians for the countries and provinces which were ruled by the junior Austrian branch of the House of Habsburg (1278–1780), and then by the successor House of Habsburg-Lorraine (from 1780), between 1526 and 1804. The "Habsburg Monarchy / Habsburg Empire" term was born only posteriorly in the early 19th century, which referred to the Habsburg dominions between the 1526 - 1804 period"




Two things in you statement I disagree with first off Hungary was majority Catholic you said much of Hungary was protestant.

Which is right and wrong. At first the Protestants made large gains in Hungary, but by the mid to late 16th century Hungary was majority Catholic again. Mostly thanks to the Jesuits and the counter reformation. Wjich leads to Hungary having 5.5M Catholics and 1.9m Pros. or 54% Catholic 19.5% Pro

Second Croatia had already split with Hungary before they joined the Hapsburgs. After Louis 2 died in mOhacs Hungarian rule in Croatia ended. Croatia declared that Fedinand of Austriawas King.

Finally on the ethnic make up of the Croats-They are more German than Slav- First of the Goths were there.

The Croats came from the same are as the Boii A Celto germanic Tribe- That were from the celtic Hallstatt area.

If you want my opinion the orginal Croats were already Germano Celtic (but spoke slavic becuase their Neighbors did) Mixed with the Germanic Goths, later Mixed with franks and Austrians.

Further: Large area of Croatia were settled by Knight Hospitaler and Knights Templar to help keep the turks out, they brought realtives and large households with them.

Last but not least of you look at genetic typing the Croats are closer related to Swedes than Angles, Juts or Saxons-The Goths came from Sweeden

The Croats are more germanic and Celtic than Slav

[Szegedist]

You forgot the fact that there were no Hungarian majority in the Ottoman occupied zones, due to the fact that 90% of the Hungarian population fled to Northern and Western Habsburg-ruled regions from the mid 16th century.

As a consequence of the 150 years of constant warfare between the Christian states and Ottomans, population growth was stunted, and the network of ethnic Hungarian medieval settlements, with their urbanized bourgeois inhabitants, perished. The ethnic composition of the territory that formerly was part of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary was fundamentally changed through deportations and massacres, so that the number of ethnic Hungarians in existence at the end of the Ottoman period was substantially diminished.