Maniot gedmatch

[Coolguy1]

From outer Mani, close to Kalamata

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.64
2 West_Med 21.54
3 North_Atlantic 19.25
4 West_Asian 12
5 Baltic 10.27
6 Red_Sea 4.67
7 Northeast_African 0.7
8 Oceanian 0.6
9 Amerindian 0.25
10 East_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 3.69
2 Central_Greek 3.9
3 West_Sicilian 3.92
4 Italian_Abruzzo 4.98
5 South_Italian 5.49
6 Ashkenazi 6.15
7 Greek_Thessaly 7.23
8 Tuscan 9.29
9 Italian_Jewish 10.32
10 Sephardic_Jewish 10.75
11 Algerian_Jewish 10.9
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.8
13 Libyan_Jewish 15.42
14 North_Italian 15.67
15 Bulgarian 15.9
16 Romanian 17.83
17 Cyprian 18.08
18 Lebanese_Muslim 21.55
19 Serbian 21.81
20 Turkish 22.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.2% Greek_Thessaly + 40.8% Italian_Jewish @ 1.93
2 63.7% Italian_Jewish + 36.3% Romanian @ 2.23
3 61% Italian_Jewish + 39% Bulgarian @ 2.33
4 50.2% Central_Greek + 49.8% West_Sicilian @ 2.34
5 60.6% Greek_Thessaly + 39.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.46
6 76.5% East_Sicilian + 23.5% Tuscan @ 2.46
7 56.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 43.4% Ashkenazi @ 2.49
8 65.2% West_Sicilian + 34.8% Ashkenazi @ 2.53
9 81.7% South_Italian + 18.3% Serbian @ 2.59
10 90.4% South_Italian + 9.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.6
11 90.2% South_Italian + 9.8% Belorussian @ 2.61
12 61.6% Ashkenazi + 38.4% Tuscan @ 2.61
13 91% South_Italian + 9% Estonian @ 2.64
14 58.4% South_Italian + 41.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.66
15 86.1% South_Italian + 13.9% Hungarian @ 2.66
16 53% East_Sicilian + 47% West_Sicilian @ 2.67
17 85.8% East_Sicilian + 14.2% North_Italian @ 2.67
18 88.8% South_Italian + 11.2% South_Polish @ 2.69
19 90.9% South_Italian + 9.1% Finnish @ 2.7
20 90.2% South_Italian + 9.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.7

[kleenex]

Interesting results. Much more Southeast shifted than average Southern Peloponnesian (Messinian and/or Laconian).

[Tauromachos]

Interesting results. Much more Southeast shifted than average Southern Peloponnesian (Messinian and/or Laconian).

They have overlapp with Sicilians it can't be denied.

[Coolguy1]

Interesting results. Much more Southeast shifted than average Southern Peloponnesian (Messinian and/or Laconian).

He is probably a good representation of the Peloponnese before the Slavic invasion.

[kleenex]

They have overlapp with Sicilians it can't be denied

I don't think anyone ever questioned that the typical Maniot sample is pretty close to Sicily.I guess my question is "why?" I"m not sure it's necessarily Slavic input in the rest of the Southern Peloponnese.

[Tauromachos]

He is probably a good representation of the Peloponnese before the Slavic invasion.

Yes indeed he is.

But also don't buy this bullshit about Slavi invasions in Peloponnese.

There was no real invasion of Slavs there.

There were some Slavic settlers in Byzantine times and this displays in the amount of Slavic ancestry Peloponnesians can have according
to Stamoyanopoulo's paper "0%-15% Slavic"

According to the same paper Deep Mani is one of the regions with the least Slavic "0.7-1%"

This is not even Deep Mani from what you say and still..

This result clearly corresponds to what the paper says
https://media.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/images/ejhg201718f2.jpg

[Ajeje Brazorf]

From outer Mani, close to Kalamata

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 30.64
2 West_Med 21.54
3 North_Atlantic 19.25
4 West_Asian 12
5 Baltic 10.27
6 Red_Sea 4.67
7 Northeast_African 0.7
8 Oceanian 0.6
9 Amerindian 0.25
10 East_Asian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 3.69
2 Central_Greek 3.9
3 West_Sicilian 3.92
4 Italian_Abruzzo 4.98
5 South_Italian 5.49
6 Ashkenazi 6.15
7 Greek_Thessaly 7.23
8 Tuscan 9.29
9 Italian_Jewish 10.32
10 Sephardic_Jewish 10.75
11 Algerian_Jewish 10.9
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.8
13 Libyan_Jewish 15.42
14 North_Italian 15.67
15 Bulgarian 15.9
16 Romanian 17.83
17 Cyprian 18.08
18 Lebanese_Muslim 21.55
19 Serbian 21.81
20 Turkish 22.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.2% Greek_Thessaly + 40.8% Italian_Jewish @ 1.93
2 63.7% Italian_Jewish + 36.3% Romanian @ 2.23
3 61% Italian_Jewish + 39% Bulgarian @ 2.33
4 50.2% Central_Greek + 49.8% West_Sicilian @ 2.34
5 60.6% Greek_Thessaly + 39.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.46
6 76.5% East_Sicilian + 23.5% Tuscan @ 2.46
7 56.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 43.4% Ashkenazi @ 2.49
8 65.2% West_Sicilian + 34.8% Ashkenazi @ 2.53
9 81.7% South_Italian + 18.3% Serbian @ 2.59
10 90.4% South_Italian + 9.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.6
11 90.2% South_Italian + 9.8% Belorussian @ 2.61
12 61.6% Ashkenazi + 38.4% Tuscan @ 2.61
13 91% South_Italian + 9% Estonian @ 2.64
14 58.4% South_Italian + 41.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.66
15 86.1% South_Italian + 13.9% Hungarian @ 2.66
16 53% East_Sicilian + 47% West_Sicilian @ 2.67
17 85.8% East_Sicilian + 14.2% North_Italian @ 2.67
18 88.8% South_Italian + 11.2% South_Polish @ 2.69
19 90.9% South_Italian + 9.1% Finnish @ 2.7
20 90.2% South_Italian + 9.8% Estonian_Polish @ 2.7

Could you post his K15?

[Sikeliot]

I don't think anyone ever questioned that the typical Maniot sample is pretty close to Sicily.I guess my question is "why?" I"m not sure it's necessarily Slavic input in the rest of the Southern Peloponnese.

Cretan influence?

[Tauromachos]

Cretan influence?

Why should the native population of Mani be that different from Cretans,Islanders and Sicilians?

Here some videos with Maniot Greeks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeInXog9pXY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwC4m6ZsrQM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV11Yx4OQ1k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZTEPnNdFI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd-bY5lxCOQ

And this is how the landscape in Mani looks like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOC3LyK4bTs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ7JVhWD4CY

[Percivalle]

Why should the native population of Mani be that different from Cretans,Islanders and Sicilians?

Here some videos with Maniot Greeks

And this is how the landscape in Mani looks like

Wow.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Limeni_Mani.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Why should the native population of Mani be that different from Cretans,Islanders and Sicilians?

Less MENA input?

[Percivalle]

Could you post his K15?

North_Sea 5.54
Atlantic 20.78
Baltic 9.53
Eastern_Euro 0.89
West_Med 15.94
West_Asian 13.54
East_Med 28.18
Red_Sea 4.40
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.41
Northeast_African 0.80
Sub-Saharan -

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 7.2
2 South_Italian 7.9
3 Italian_Abruzzo 7.97
4 East_Sicilian 8.5
5 Central_Greek 8.58
6 Greek 8.86
7 Sephardic_Jewish 11.08
8 Ashkenazi 11.18
9 Tuscan 11.28
10 Italian_Jewish 11.74
11 Algerian_Jewish 12.2
12 Greek_Thessaly 12.68
13 Tunisian_Jewish 14.75
14 Bulgarian 15.99
15 North_Italian 16.79
16 Cyprian 17.92
17 Romanian 18.58
18 Libyan_Jewish 18.84
19 Lebanese_Muslim 21.05
20 Turkish 21.18

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Less MENA input?

Again, "MENA" is a nosense term.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

North_Sea 5.54
Atlantic 20.78
Baltic 9.53
Eastern_Euro 0.89
West_Med 15.94
West_Asian 13.54
East_Med 28.18
Red_Sea 4.40
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.41
Northeast_African 0.80
Sub-Saharan -

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_Sicilian 7.2
2 South_Italian 7.9
3 Italian_Abruzzo 7.97
4 East_Sicilian 8.5
5 Central_Greek 8.58
6 Greek 8.86
7 Sephardic_Jewish 11.08
8 Ashkenazi 11.18
9 Tuscan 11.28
10 Italian_Jewish 11.74
11 Algerian_Jewish 12.2
12 Greek_Thessaly 12.68
13 Tunisian_Jewish 14.75
14 Bulgarian 15.99
15 North_Italian 16.79
16 Cyprian 17.92
17 Romanian 18.58
18 Libyan_Jewish 18.84
19 Lebanese_Muslim 21.05
20 Turkish 21.18

This is the Maniot? Seems very close to ancient Greeks.

[Tauromachos]

Less MENA input?

Again apart from the Mena input which is more in Crete why do you think that the native stock of people
in Crete and Mani would be that much different given geography and climate.?

[Percivalle]

This is the Maniot? Seems very close to ancient Greeks.

Yes, that's him.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yes, that's him.

Thank you man.

[kleenex]

Again apart from the Mena input which is more in Crete why do you think that the native stock of people
in Crete and Mani would be that much different given geography and climate.?

The Maniotes were an isolated population for literally thousands of years. I've know Maniotes and yes they tended to be darker in complexion but their features were Western in every sense of the word. I'm not sure about the Cretan connection ('I've never heard anything of the sort) I would guess that their Southern shifted genetics has more to do with isolation (just like the Tsakonians of Arcaida) than affinity to Cretans.

[Tauromachos]

The Maniotes were an isolated population for literally thousands of years. I've know Maniotes and yes they tended to be darker in complexion but their features were Western in every sense of the word. I'm not sure about the Cretan connection ('I've never heard anything of the sort) I would guess that their Southern shifted genetics has more to do with isolation (just like the Tsakonians of Arcaida) than affinity to Cretans.

Western features with dark complexion is as classic Mediteranid as it gets and they should be more similar to South Italians then.

Only a part of Sicilians looks East Med like


Alot of Sicilians i have met and also i see in videos look exactly the way you described the Maniots
People with a dark Mediteranean complexion but Western features.

I know exactly what i'm talking about

[Sikeliot]

Western features with dark complexion is as classic Mediteranid as it gets and they should be more similar to South Italians then.

More than Balkan looking people in Thessaloniki, yes, but Dodecanese and Cretans look closer to southern Italians overall.

[Sikeliot]

The fact is, that Maniot result is not average. I am sorry, but it's the truth.

[Sikeliot]

Let me put it this way: Maniots and Tsakonians look and are genetically closer to Sicilians than any other mainland region of Greece, but the overlap (both phenotypical and genetic) is not as consistent as is the one between Sicilians and Crete/Dodecanese.

[Tauromachos]

More than Balkan looking people in Thessaloniki, yes, but Dodecanese and Cretans look closer to southern Italians overall.

I think you have misconceptions about that.

When i say Maniots or other Peloponnesians lοοκ similar to Sicilians i mean dark Mediteranid types with European features but dark Med complexion
and you can't denie that this type of people is at least the same typical for Italy and Sicily like your Levantine looking Sicilians.

I know it

1)Because alot of Sicilians i have met exactly looked this way
2)Because i have watched videos with Siclians on youtube also videos about Palermo and there were alot of people who exactly looked that way
3) This has nothing to do with the fact that there are other phenotypes in Sicily also who look more Eastern Mediteranean or Jewish like

[Sikeliot]

I think you have misconceptions about that.

When i say Maniots or other Peloponnesians like similar to Sicilians i mean dark Mediteranid types with European features but dark Med complexion
and you can't denie that this type of people is at least the same typical for Italy and Sicily like your Levantine looking Sicilians.

I know it

1)Because alot of Sicilians i have met exactly looked this way
2)Because i have watched videos with Siclians on youtube also videos about Palermo and there were alot of people who exactly looked that way
3) This has nothing to do with the fact that there are other phenotypes in Sicily also who look more Eastern Mediteranean or Jewish like


The majority of the population could be exchanged without anyone noticing, but the "exotic" types that look Near Eastern can also be found in the Aegean islands and in Sicily, but not so much in Maniots, which means that the entire spectrum of Sicilian appearances is better captured by the islands.

With that said, I at least agree most Maniots pass in Sicily, which is something I cannot say about people from Macedonia, Thessaly, Thrace, and so on.

[Tauromachos]

The majority of the population could be exchanged without anyone noticing, but the "exotic" types that look Near Eastern can also be found in the Aegean islands and in Sicily, but not so much in Maniots, which means that the entire spectrum of Sicilian appearances is better captured by the islands.

With that said, I at least agree most Maniots pass in Sicily, which is something I cannot say about people from Macedonia, Thessaly, Thrace, and so on.

Again my point is that the most native people of Sicily are not your Near Easterners but Sardinian like European Meds and this people are represented
by the Maniot types we were talking about here and by the corresponding Sicilian types.

Since as you said yourself that original Mycaneans had even lees Near Eastern affinity than modern Mainstream Greeks but also shifted South or South West from
the modern Greek Mainstream.

Its pretty obvious which type of Sicilian and Greek will be the most closest to Mycaneans and its the type i was talking about.

Also Maniots have relations to Sardinia
There was a famous Maniot pirate clan named Sassaris and they were from Sardinia as even the name suggest.

The ancient Shardana people of Sardinia were known as warlike people"they were hired by the Egyptians to drive out Hyksos invadors" and they were know for building towers.

In Mani each family builded its own tower and this kind od Architecture is distinct for the region and exists in this form not anyhwhere else in Greece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwYZFZS5UNo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwSbEzvNX2s

[kleenex]

The majority of the population could be exchanged without anyone noticing, but the "exotic" types that look Near Eastern can also be found in the Aegean islands and in Sicily, but not so much in Maniots, which means that the entire spectrum of Sicilian appearances is better captured by the islands.

With that said, I at least agree most Maniots pass in Sicily, which is something I cannot say about people from Macedonia, Thessaly, Thrace, and so on.

So essentially you both agree on that point. My sense is that within Greece there is a distinct genetic/iphenotypic cline from the East Aegean to Northern Greece. East Aegeans (Dodecanese) Cretans-Cyclades-Maniots/Tsakonians-Central Greeks-Peloponnesians-Thessalians-Epirotes-Macedonians? I would say it's continuous without the distinct and radical breaks you see in Italy (from Sicily to Northern Italy).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The fact is, that Maniot result is not average. I am sorry, but it's the truth.

To score West_Sicilian as the first population he must very archaic...

[Tauromachos]

To score West_Sicilian as the first population he must very archaic...

I think alot of Maniots are archaic

Look at the landscape of Mani in the videos i have posted and you understand

[xripkan]

The updated K13
3.12521999 Molise
3.21568033 Abruzzo
3.56233070 Apulia
4.13874377 East_Sicilian
4.25813339 Greek_Cyclades
4.31133390 Basilicata
4.37377411 West_Sicilian
4.75409297 Campania
4.85754053 Greek_Athens
5.12385597 Greek_Ionia
5.53555779 Sicily
5.64205636 Greek_Andros_Island
5.75892351 Greek_Central
5.91506551 Malta
6.95215075 Ashkenazi
7.08369254 Greek_Peloponnese
7.09071224 Greek_Western-Thrace
7.28225240 Calabria
7.44356769 Greek_North_Aegean
8.01019975 Greek_West
8.34916762 Marche
8.40797835 Greek_Crete
8.66304796 Greek_West_Macedonia
8.68829097 Albanian_south_Albania
8.69253703 Lazio

It seems as Mycenaean-like with some extra steppe ancestry (but significantly less than a typical Mainlander) which brings him closer to South-Central Italian cluster rather pure South Italian. It also lacks most of BA Anatolia ancestry that exists among Modern Greeks.

[Jana]

The updated K13
3.12521999 Molise
3.21568033 Abruzzo
3.56233070 Apulia
4.13874377 East_Sicilian
4.25813339 Greek_Cyclades
4.31133390 Basilicata
4.37377411 West_Sicilian
4.75409297 Campania
4.85754053 Greek_Athens
5.12385597 Greek_Ionia
5.53555779 Sicily
5.64205636 Greek_Andros_Island
5.75892351 Greek_Central
5.91506551 Malta
6.95215075 Ashkenazi
7.08369254 Greek_Peloponnese
7.09071224 Greek_Western-Thrace
7.28225240 Calabria
7.44356769 Greek_North_Aegean
8.01019975 Greek_West
8.34916762 Marche
8.40797835 Greek_Crete
8.66304796 Greek_West_Macedonia
8.68829097 Albanian_south_Albania
8.69253703 Lazio

It seems as Mycenaean-like with some extra steppe ancestry (but significantly less than a typical Mainlander) which brings him closer to South-Central Italian cluster rather pure South Italian. It also lacks most of BA Anatolia ancestry that exists among Modern Greeks.

Mani looks like one of purest Greek regions overall, with huge amount of ancient Hellenic ancestry.

[xripkan]

Mani looks like one of purest Greek regions overall, with huge amount of ancient Hellenic ancestry.

Yes, Mani and especially the region of Deep Mani was isolated during Middle Ages and you can see till nowadays individuals who plot with southern Italians. However there are some Maniots who do not plot so deeply Southern.
This sample is representative of the genetic continuity of the area. It is not only the lack of the Slavic ancestry. Pre-Slavic Greeks had a descent amount of BA Anatolian ancestry and this is why Modern Greeks are modelled better with some Aegean-like Roman samples + extra Steppe rather Mycenaean-like + extra Steppe. Despite our Northern Medieval input we score the same or even a bit higher amount of West Asian Neolithic components than Ancient Greeks did.
However this individual seems a Mycenaean with some extra ancient Balkan input(hihger steppe) instead. A part of this input could actually be from Hellenic groups with a bit higher Steppe than Mycenaean samples.

[Jana]

Yes, Mani and especially the region of Deep Mani was isolated during Middle Ages and you can see till nowadays individuals who plot with southern Italians. However there are some Maniots who do not plot so deeply Southern.
This sample is representative of the genetic continuity of the area. It is not only the lack of the Slavic ancestry. Pre-Slavic Greeks had a descent amount of BA Anatolian ancestry and this is why Modern Greeks are modelled better with some Aegean-like Roman samples + extra Steppe rather Mycenaean-like + extra Steppe. Despite our Northern Medieval input we score the same or even a bit higher amount of West Asian Neolithic components than Ancient Greeks did.
However this individual seems a Mycenaean with some extra ancient Balkan input(hihger steppe) instead. A part of this input could actually be from Hellenic groups with a bit higher Steppe than Mycenaean samples.

That's what I tought - Dorians could have brought extra steppe for example. I also noticed lack of BA Anatolian, which makes it close to Myceneans.
Maybe BA Anatolian like input spread during Byzantine times, but probably not evenly in all of Greece.

[xripkan]

That's what I tought - Dorians could have brought extra steppe for example. I also noticed lack of BA Anatolian, which makes it close to Myceneans.
Maybe BA Anatolian like input spread during Byzantine times, but probably not evenly in all of Greece.

I have BA Anatolian input and I am from Western parts of Mainland Greece not even close to Aegean sea. This kind of input started to spread during Hellenistic era after the mass Hellenization of native central Anatolians. The spread must have been even bigger during the Byzantine times when several emperors transfered -in several occasions- Anatolians to Mainland Greece and islands like Crete. Prenestini outlier is considered as an Italiote Greek with ancestry from the area of Aegean. This sample is modelled as Mycenaean with BA Anatolian and extra Steppe (probably Italic) ancestry. It is a good proxy for the Hellenistic era Greeks who except the BA Anatolia received the more Steppe admixed Thracian ancestry.

In general I have noticed that BA Anatolian ancestry lacks or is very low in two groups among modern Greeks: Maniots and Arvanites. It maybe also lacks in some Northern Greek regions like Western Macedonia but I am not sure about that.

[catgeorge]

Typical South Greek results absolutely nothing out of the ordinary

[Tacitus]

I have BA Anatolian input and I am from Western parts of Mainland Greece not even close to Aegean sea. This kind of input started to spread during Hellenistic era after the mass Hellenization of native central Anatolians. The spread must have been even bigger during the Byzantine times when several emperors transfered -in several occasions- Anatolians to Mainland Greece and islands like Crete. Prenestini outlier is considered as an Italiote Greek with ancestry from the area of Aegean. This sample is modelled as Mycenaean with BA Anatolian and extra Steppe (probably Italic) ancestry. It is a good proxy for the Hellenistic era Greeks who except the BA Anatolia received the more Steppe admixed Thracian ancestry.

In general I have noticed that BA Anatolian ancestry lacks or is very low in two groups among modern Greeks: Maniots and Arvanites. It maybe also lacks in some Northern Greek regions like Western Macedonia but I am not sure about that.

In the final print of Antonio et al, their two-way model from the Prenestini outlier was RMPR_CA and either Armenia_LBA or Anatolian_IA. It's in the supplemental file under Table S17. So theoretically it may actually be a clue into the mix that largely produced modern southern Italians (a local element plus a group rich in Caucasus/Anatolian ancestry as has been implied in other papers) rather than a Greek transplant, especially since his haplogroups don't immediately imply completely Greek/Aegean origins (Y-DNA R-P312>L2>PR5365, mtDNA H10).

Obviously with R1b Y-DNA he has at least a bit of Steppe ancestry so not an exact two-way between Chalcolithic Italy and Bronze Age Armenia/Iron Age Anatolia.

[xripkan]

In the final print of Antonio et al, their two-way model from the Prenestini outlier was RMPR_CA and either Armenia_LBA or Anatolian_IA. It's in the supplemental file under Table S17. So theoretically it may actually be a clue into the mix that largely produced modern southern Italians (a local element plus a group rich in Caucasus/Anatolian ancestry as has been implied in other papers) rather than a Greek transplant, especially since his haplogroups don't immediately imply completely Greek/Aegean origins (Y-DNA R-P312>L2>PR5365, mtDNA H10).

Obviously with R1b Y-DNA he has at least a bit of Steppe ancestry so not an exact two-way between Chalcolithic Italy and Bronze Age Armenia/Iron Age Anatolia.

This seems the best two-way model for this sample but it seems we need more than two sources to describe its ancestry. The Neolithic models indicate some Aegean ancestry. As I wrote above I don't think this sample indicate a Greek transplant but someone with Aegean (Mycenaean-like + BA Anatolian) and Italic ancestry, maybe a bit Phoenician as well.
I wrote about it because it is genetically close to a mix of Aegean+more steppe admixed Thracians

Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 2.0704% / 0.02070385
58.0 BGR_IA
42.0 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1

[Deusex99]

In the final print of Antonio et al, their two-way model from the Prenestini outlier was RMPR_CA and either Armenia_LBA or Anatolian_IA. It's in the supplemental file under Table S17. So theoretically it may actually be a clue into the mix that largely produced modern southern Italians (a local element plus a group rich in Caucasus/Anatolian ancestry as has been implied in other papers) rather than a Greek transplant, especially since his haplogroups don't immediately imply completely Greek/Aegean origins (Y-DNA R-P312>L2>PR5365, mtDNA H10).

Obviously with R1b Y-DNA he has at least a bit of Steppe ancestry so not an exact two-way between Chalcolithic Italy and Bronze Age Armenia/Iron Age Anatolia.

Italy copper age had no steppe at all. The model was Iron Age Latin + Bronze/Iron Age Anatolia.

[Tacitus]

Italy copper age had no steppe at all. The model was Iron Age Latin + Bronze/Iron Age Anatolia.

I know Copper Age Italy didn't have steppe, thus the qualifier that R437 does have some steppe ancestry and it's not exactly a two-way model. Also, here's the table from the supplementary section showing their two-way model:
https://i.imgur.com/L28Q6Qz.png

And from the published paper:

Although we were able to model eight of the 11 individuals as two-way mixtures of Copper Age central Italians and a Steppe-related population (~24 to 38%) using qpAdm, this model was rejected for the other three individuals (p< 0.001; table S16). Instead,two individuals from Latin sites (R437 and R850) can be modeled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (best approximated by Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian; tables S17and S18).

Now, while I don't completely trust G25, I made a few models based on R437 anyway to compare:

The Antonio et al model:
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 3.3803% / 0.03380304
50.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
49.6 ARM_LBA

Here I add a steppe component and switch out the chalcolithic sample with a neolithic one (it admittedly didn't work with the CA sample as it rejected the steppe component):
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 2.5148% / 0.02514792
57.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N
32.4 ARM_LBA
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Using IA Anatolia the steppe component doesn't get rejected with CA Italy but offers a worse fit:
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 4.7940% / 0.04794002
54.0 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
36.6 TUR_IA
9.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Even though the paper didn't mention Bronze Age Anatolia in their model, I tried it anyway since you mentioned it. Curiously it becomes to dominant element, although I'm not sure how true that is in reality:
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 1.9887% / 0.01988730
53.8 TUR_Isparta_EBA
30.8 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
15.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 2.2060% / 0.02206050
51.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
33.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
15.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

The question remains right now when and how this Anatolian/Caucasus ancestry came into this part of Italy (and in the south as well). Hopefully we'll get ancient samples from mainland southern Italy sooner rather than later that can shed more light on this.

[vbnetkhio]

Typical South Greek results absolutely nothing out of the ordinary

it's better to say Greek from an isolated area. Like the islands, but it can be an isolated mainland area like Mani.

This Macedonian Greek has less Baltic than this Maniot:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 25.5
2 East_Med 22.79
3 West_Med 22.49
4 West_Asian 13.2
5 Baltic 9.92
6 Red_Sea 3.73
7 Amerindian 1.08
8 Northeast_African 1.02
9 East_Asian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 4.83
2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.94
3 West_Sicilian 7.28
4 Greek_Thessaly 8.64
5 North_Italian 9
6 Central_Greek 9.76
7 East_Sicilian 10.42
8 South_Italian 11.66
9 Bulgarian 13.98
10 Ashkenazi 14.39
11 Romanian 14.66
12 Spanish_Extremadura 16.53
13 Portuguese 16.83
14 Spanish_Andalucia 17.37
15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.4
16 Italian_Jewish 17.64
17 Spanish_Murcia 17.72
18 Spanish_Galicia 18.09
19 Serbian 18.12
20 Algerian_Jewish 18.28

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.4% North_Italian + 20.6% Georgian_Jewish @ 1.89
2 89.5% Tuscan + 10.5% Ossetian @ 1.98
3 80.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 19.6% Southwest_French @ 2.05
4 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% North_Ossetian @ 2.05
5 89.4% Tuscan + 10.6% Chechen @ 2.05
6 89.4% Tuscan + 10.6% Adygei @ 2.08
7 89.2% Tuscan + 10.8% Kabardin @ 2.08
8 79.3% North_Italian + 20.7% Armenian @ 2.08
9 89.1% Tuscan + 10.9% Balkar @ 2.09
10 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% Tabassaran @ 2.17
11 79.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.2
12 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% Lezgin @ 2.2
13 88.5% Tuscan + 11.5% Kumyk @ 2.24
14 79.2% North_Italian + 20.8% Assyrian @ 2.25
15 90.4% Tuscan + 9.6% Georgian @ 2.28
16 91.1% Tuscan + 8.9% Abhkasian @ 2.36
17 78% Italian_Abruzzo + 22% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.41
18 61.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 38.5% North_Italian @ 2.44
19 76.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 23.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.44
20 74.7% North_Italian + 25.3% Turkish @ 2.46

[Peterski]

What is the Maniot's kit number?


This Macedonian Greek has less Baltic than this Maniot:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 25.5
2 East_Med 22.79
3 West_Med 22.49
4 West_Asian 13.2
5 Baltic 9.92
6 Red_Sea 3.73
7 Amerindian 1.08
8 Northeast_African 1.02
9 East_Asian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 4.83
2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.94
3 West_Sicilian 7.28
4 Greek_Thessaly 8.64
5 North_Italian 9
6 Central_Greek 9.76
7 East_Sicilian 10.42
8 South_Italian 11.66
9 Bulgarian 13.98
10 Ashkenazi 14.39
11 Romanian 14.66
12 Spanish_Extremadura 16.53
13 Portuguese 16.83
14 Spanish_Andalucia 17.37
15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.4
16 Italian_Jewish 17.64
17 Spanish_Murcia 17.72
18 Spanish_Galicia 18.09
19 Serbian 18.12
20 Algerian_Jewish 18.28

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.4% North_Italian + 20.6% Georgian_Jewish @ 1.89
2 89.5% Tuscan + 10.5% Ossetian @ 1.98
3 80.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 19.6% Southwest_French @ 2.05
4 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% North_Ossetian @ 2.05
5 89.4% Tuscan + 10.6% Chechen @ 2.05
6 89.4% Tuscan + 10.6% Adygei @ 2.08
7 89.2% Tuscan + 10.8% Kabardin @ 2.08
8 79.3% North_Italian + 20.7% Armenian @ 2.08
9 89.1% Tuscan + 10.9% Balkar @ 2.09
10 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% Tabassaran @ 2.17
11 79.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.2
12 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% Lezgin @ 2.2
13 88.5% Tuscan + 11.5% Kumyk @ 2.24
14 79.2% North_Italian + 20.8% Assyrian @ 2.25
15 90.4% Tuscan + 9.6% Georgian @ 2.28
16 91.1% Tuscan + 8.9% Abhkasian @ 2.36
17 78% Italian_Abruzzo + 22% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.41
18 61.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 38.5% North_Italian @ 2.44
19 76.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 23.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.44
20 74.7% North_Italian + 25.3% Turkish @ 2.46

Macedonia received many Anatolian Greek refugees after Greek-Turkish conflicts.

This person could be someone with an Anatolian Greek grandparent, for example.

[vbnetkhio]

What is the Maniot's kit number?



Macedonia received many Anatolian Greek refugees after Greek-Turkish conflicts.

This person could be someone with an Anatolian Greek grandparent, for example.

and his other ancestors were North Italian like? :scratch:

he looks to me like a local with less Slavic influence. I think most northern Greeks can be modelled as this person + some extra Slavic influence.

[xripkan]

it's better to say Greek from an isolated area. Like the islands, but it can be an isolated mainland area like Mani.

This Macedonian Greek has less Baltic than this Maniot:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 25.5
2 East_Med 22.79
3 West_Med 22.49
4 West_Asian 13.2
5 Baltic 9.92
6 Red_Sea 3.73
7 Amerindian 1.08
8 Northeast_African 1.02
9 East_Asian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 4.83
2 Italian_Abruzzo 5.94
3 West_Sicilian 7.28
4 Greek_Thessaly 8.64
5 North_Italian 9
6 Central_Greek 9.76
7 East_Sicilian 10.42
8 South_Italian 11.66
9 Bulgarian 13.98
10 Ashkenazi 14.39
11 Romanian 14.66
12 Spanish_Extremadura 16.53
13 Portuguese 16.83
14 Spanish_Andalucia 17.37
15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.4
16 Italian_Jewish 17.64
17 Spanish_Murcia 17.72
18 Spanish_Galicia 18.09
19 Serbian 18.12
20 Algerian_Jewish 18.28

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.4% North_Italian + 20.6% Georgian_Jewish @ 1.89
2 89.5% Tuscan + 10.5% Ossetian @ 1.98
3 80.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 19.6% Southwest_French @ 2.05
4 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% North_Ossetian @ 2.05
5 89.4% Tuscan + 10.6% Chechen @ 2.05
6 89.4% Tuscan + 10.6% Adygei @ 2.08
7 89.2% Tuscan + 10.8% Kabardin @ 2.08
8 79.3% North_Italian + 20.7% Armenian @ 2.08
9 89.1% Tuscan + 10.9% Balkar @ 2.09
10 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% Tabassaran @ 2.17
11 79.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.2
12 89.8% Tuscan + 10.2% Lezgin @ 2.2
13 88.5% Tuscan + 11.5% Kumyk @ 2.24
14 79.2% North_Italian + 20.8% Assyrian @ 2.25
15 90.4% Tuscan + 9.6% Georgian @ 2.28
16 91.1% Tuscan + 8.9% Abhkasian @ 2.36
17 78% Italian_Abruzzo + 22% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.41
18 61.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 38.5% North_Italian @ 2.44
19 76.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 23.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.44
20 74.7% North_Italian + 25.3% Turkish @ 2.46

Very interesting results! This individual has high native Balkan ancestry. I exclude the possibility of Anatolian ancestry that Peterski mentions because the rest is modelled as North Italian. Do you know his gedmatch kit number?

[Coolguy1]

I dont have his kit number anymore. And by the way, the only way I was able to discern that he has Maniot ancestry was through his surname, which ends in "Akos", and is characteristically Maniot. That being said, I dont know if he is full Maniot, so this thread should be put to rest.

[Deusex99]

I know Copper Age Italy didn't have steppe, thus the qualifier that R437 does have some steppe ancestry and it's not exactly a two-way model. Also, here's the table from the supplementary section showing their two-way model:
https://i.imgur.com/L28Q6Qz.png

And from the published paper:


Now, while I don't completely trust G25, I made a few models based on R437 anyway to compare:

The Antonio et al model:
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 3.3803% / 0.03380304
50.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
49.6 ARM_LBA

Here I add a steppe component and switch out the chalcolithic sample with a neolithic one (it admittedly didn't work with the CA sample as it rejected the steppe component):
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 2.5148% / 0.02514792
57.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N
32.4 ARM_LBA
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Using IA Anatolia the steppe component doesn't get rejected with CA Italy but offers a worse fit:
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 4.7940% / 0.04794002
54.0 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
36.6 TUR_IA
9.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Even though the paper didn't mention Bronze Age Anatolia in their model, I tried it anyway since you mentioned it. Curiously it becomes to dominant element, although I'm not sure how true that is in reality:
Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 1.9887% / 0.01988730
53.8 TUR_Isparta_EBA
30.8 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
15.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance: 2.2060% / 0.02206050
51.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
33.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
15.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

The question remains right now when and how this Anatolian/Caucasus ancestry came into this part of Italy (and in the south as well). Hopefully we'll get ancient samples from mainland southern Italy sooner rather than later that can shed more light on this.

Armenia LBA and Anatolia IA are both based on 2 outliers with elevated steppe/Siberian dna, probably Cimmerians.