Mystery of the Vlachs and South Slavs

[Bosniensis]

It is universally accepted Fact that Slavs came to Balkans and that their haplogroups are I2a1, R1a

However!

Vlachs are I2a1 as well, not any I2a1 but CTS 10228.

In 1850 A.D. Serbia had 150.000 Latin speaking (Only Latin Speaking) Vlachs who were Orthodoxes, who were again I2a1b CTS 10228 predominantly.

In 6th century A.D. Vlachs (as it was described by Slavic people) were Majority of Balkan peninsula.

Quesion is simple:

If I2a1 is Slavic and if it came with Slavs, how did Vlachs became I2a1 CTS 10228?

If Slavic man married Vlach woman then it would be logical that Slavic would a primary language, but NO! Latin was a major language in Serbia among the Vlachs up to 1850 when they were Assimilated into Serbs by Education System of early Jugoslavia and Serbia.

Also, Vlachs could not learn Latin in Poland or Ukraine nor they learned it later cause they were not Catholics.

Also when I asked them about Identity they all responded: "We are Romans!" They denounced catholics as "Frankish and Germanic people"

So I2a1b CTS 10228 could NOT arrive from Poland, Vlachs are a PRIME EXAMPLES of that.

Truth is: Vlachs are Romanized Balkan people, while I2a1 Serbs are non-Romanized Balkan people.

Even Romans used to say: "Illyrians and Thracians are extremely difficult to Romanize(Latinize)"

So no, I2 people are not people from Ukrainian Steppes or Russia, but people from Balkans.

[Wrong]

Vlachs are not a single designated population, they are a mix of everything. It's just a name for a Latin-speaker. An English-speaking African does not turn him into Anglo-Saxon ethnically.

There are assimilated Albanians in Sanxhak speaking Slavic language yet carrying common Albanian yDNA.

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

Huno-Avars brought I2a1b-CTS10228 to the Balkans.


There is no mystery, except in your head.

[Wrong]

In 2006 Bosch et al. attempted to determine if the Aromanians are descendants of Latinised Dacians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians), Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), Thracians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) or a combination of these, but no hypothesis could be proven because of the underlying genetic similarity of all the tested Balkan groups. Linguistic and cultural differences between Balkan groups were deemed too weak to prevent gene flow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_flow) among the groups.


Besides, Vlachs in certain areas of Albania carry atleast 30% J2b2.

I2a1b-CTS10028 in the case of Vlachs is easy to tell, 1400 years of being surrounded by Slavs leaves its mark through gene flow and cultural exchanges.

Despite having it explained to Bosniensis in detail, that monkey does still not get it.

[ovidiu]

Why are many of the ex-Yugos on here so schizo about their identity? They seem to constantly swing back and forth between wanting to be paleo-Balkan or Vlach and Slavic. I feel like this thread has already had ten iterations lol.


n 2006 Bosch et al. attempted to determine if the Aromanians are descendants of Latinised Dacians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians or a combination of these, but no hypothesis could be proven because of the underlying genetic similarity of all the tested Balkan groups. Linguistic and cultural differences between Balkan groups were deemed too weak to prevent gene flow among the groups.


Yeah I was looking for that quote for a while. Everyone in the region seems to be kind of mixed up together by now.


It is universally accepted Fact that Slavs came to Balkans and that their haplogroups are I2a1, R1a

Well, not sure if the haplogroup part is really universally accepted yet. It may be true but the most recent conclusions on it are still being debated by some. Who knows, as we learn more about genetics, the picture may shift again.

[Wrong]

Why are many of the ex-Yugos on here so schizo about their identity? They seem to constantly swing back and forth between wanting to be paleo-Balkan or Vlach and Slavic. I feel like this thread has already had ten iterations lol.



Yeah I was looking for that quote for a while. Everyone in the region seems to be kind of mixed up together by now.



Well, not sure if the haplogroup part is really universally accepted yet. It may be true but the most recent conclusions on it are still being debated by some. Who knows, as we learn more about genetics, the picture may shift again.
Vlachs of FYROM, for example carry 21.5% Slavic R1a.


"But no! Vlachs have zero Slavic influence, they are Paleo-Balkan Latin-speakers!"-Bosnienmonkey

[Kelmendasi]

The I2a1b in the Balkans is from Slavic migrations, just because it's found in Vlachs doesn't make it native. Anyways "Vlach" isn't exactly an ethnicity

[War Chef]

Truth is: Vlachs are Romanized Balkan people

You got it. :thumb001:

The term Vlach (walhaz) was first used by rampaging Goths as an umbrella term to label the "others".

These "others" are conquered and Romanized Balkan people (Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians), with some actually having Roman (Italian peninsula) ancestry.

[Seya]

the words vlach and sicilian should be banned on this forum

[Bosniensis]

Natenyahu about Serbs 2014

He recognize the fact I am talking about in Original post.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMMGYUstKs

[JQP4545]

Perhaps it came with the Goths...I2a1b was found in ancient Swedish hunter gatherers in the regions we associate with the Goths, yet it is virtually absent there today. Could it have left Scandinavia with the Goths and spread to eastern Europe and the Balkans?

[Voskos]

I believe I2a1 is a Central/North European haplogroup that got assimilated by Ostrogoths and later slavs. Every I2a person I've seen has at least some Germanic matches.

[Dick]

I believe I2a1 is a Central/North European haplogroup that got assimilated by Ostrogoths and later slavs. Every I2a person I've seen has at least some Germanic matches.

I didn't know this but good point.

[Dick]

Here you can find distribution in Europe of I2a clades


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup?iframe=ymap

[cosmoo]

"Vlach" on western Balkans is merely a term for pastoralist, certainly not for ethnicity. Stop LARPing.

[cosmoo]

Huno-Avars brought I2a1b-CTS10228 to the Balkans.
Didn't know you deal in high fantasy.

[cosmoo]

Perhaps it came with the Goths...I2a1b was found in ancient Swedish hunter gatherers in the regions we associate with the Goths, yet it is virtually absent there today. Could it have left Scandinavia with the Goths and spread to eastern Europe and the Balkans?

That is what I have been talking about for ages. Its origin in Mesolithic Scandinavia is irrefutable, so is the existence of proxy population which brought it to Eastern Europe and Balkans, it being undoubtedly one of the East "Germanic" (actually Germanicized natives of the North) tribes.

[War Chef]

"Vlach" on western Balkans is merely a term for pastoralist, certainly not for ethnicity. Stop LARPing.

Lightning bolt

[Leto]

Excuse my ignorance, but which haplogroups are considered native to the Balkans?

[Coolguy1]

Excuse my ignorance, but which haplogroups are considered native to the Balkans?

If we are talking about pre-Slavic haplogroups, then E-V13, J2a, J2b, G2a, R1b, and maybe some clades of R1a and I2a

[Tauromachos]

"Vlach" on western Balkans is merely a term for pastoralist, certainly not for ethnicity. Stop LARPing.

In Greece we use the term in general as a synonym for sheperd

[Crn Volk]

Why are many of the ex-Yugos on here so schizo about their identity? They seem to constantly swing back and forth between wanting to be paleo-Balkan or Vlach and Slavic. I feel like this thread has already had ten iterations lol.



Yeah I was looking for that quote for a while. Everyone in the region seems to be kind of mixed up together by now.



Well, not sure if the haplogroup part is really universally accepted yet. It may be true but the most recent conclusions on it are still being debated by some. Who knows, as we learn more about genetics, the picture may shift again.

I guess it's a reaction to Greek, Albanian (and others) points of view that state ''You are Slavs and have nothing to do with this part of Europe - go back beyond the Carpathians''. Whilst this may seems like a trollish argument, it has been used to de-humanize South Slavs in the past before ethnic cleansing campaigns were launched.

[Tauromachos]

I guess it's a reaction to Greek, Albanian (and others) points of view that state ''You are Slavs and have nothing to do with this part of Europe - go back beyond the Carpathians''. Whilst this may seems like a trollish argument, it has been used to de-humanize South Slavs in the past before ethnic cleansing campaigns were launched.

Its not Greeks point of view

Greeks supported Serbians in most conflicts.

In fact Greeks fough together with Serbs against Bulgarians in the Balkan wars and as a consequence your Republic of Macedonia was declared by Tito
in 1944.

[catgeorge]

We have no problem with Serbs or Croats... when we say "Slavs" we refer to Fyromskis and we want absolutely nothing to do with such rubbish. I hope you understand.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Natenyahu about Serbs 2014

He recognize the fact I am talking about in Original post.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMMGYUstKs

Even the Serbian dude is like, "Say what?"

Politicians say whatever to their 'bro of the moment' if they think that's what they want to hear.

The Serbian guy is all like, "Stop acting like you want to suck my dick, dude. Lets get this shit done and roll on out. I ain't got time for the jibber jabber."

[Lek]

I2a1b2a1-(I-CTS10228) a strong marker of Slavic expansion (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31961-I2a1b2a1-(I-CTS10228)-a-strong-marker-of-Slavic-expansion)

[JQP4545]

The ancient Montenegran, RISE 596, shows some eastern European-like DNA, so perhaps some I2a1b-Din came with Yamnaya. DNA land give the sample 64% North Slavic.

[Kelmendasi]

The ancient Montenegran, RISE 596, shows some eastern European-like DNA, so perhaps some I2a1b-Din came with Yamnaya. DNA land give the sample 64% North Slavic.
The Montenegrin sample hasn’t had Ydna shown. You can’t assign a haplogroup based on autosomal dna his East-European like DNA is basically Steppe. Also the SNPs tested in this sample are low so results aren’t that reliable.

[Leto]

If we are talking about pre-Slavic haplogroups, then E-V13, J2a, J2b, G2a, R1b, and maybe some clades of R1a and I2a
Hm, aren't the I haplogroups the most indigenous European haplos?

[ovidiu]

Even if I2a1b came mostly with the Slavs (or Slavic speakers), I feel like it was a different subset of Slavs than the hardcore R1a ones in the Balto-Slavic core lands of like the Poland/Belarus/Russia area. The I2a1b dominant countries don't have as much of that super stereotypical East Euro look that the R1a (Z280) dominant nations tend to. And I feel like a lot of it was a bottleneck process on the Balkans too. Just because someone has a possibly Slavic originated haplogroup doesn't mean that most of their individual ancestry is that. Because autosomally these countries tend to cluster significantly away from the main Slavic one.

I feel like 12a1b may have originally come from the northern reaches of the Tripolye Cucuteni culture around what's now Moldova and southwestern Ukraine, into which later some Slavic speakers were absorbed, and then later these moved south into the Balkans in the migration era of the early Middle Ages. Even if the HG originated in the north it became more common in the Balkans.

Also how is it that Albanians were able to survive so unaffected by these migrations, even more than Greeks? Did they just stay in some mountains the whole time and only come out much later in the 1100s when it was safe?

[Kelmendasi]

Even if I2a1b came mostly with the Slavs (or Slavic speakers), I feel like it was a different subset of Slavs than the hardcore R1a ones in the Balto-Slavic core lands of like the Poland/Belarus/Russia area. The I2a1b dominant countries don't have as much of that super stereotypical East Euro look that the R1a (Z280) dominant nations tend to. And I feel like a lot of it was a bottleneck process on the Balkans too. Just because someone has a possibly Slavic originated haplogroup doesn't mean that most of their individual ancestry is that. Because autosomally these countries tend to cluster significantly away from the main Slavic one.

I feel like 12a1b may have originally come from the northern reaches of the Tripolye Cucuteni culture around what's now Moldova and southwestern Ukraine, into which later some Slavic speakers were absorbed, and then later these moved south into the Balkans in the migration era of the early Middle Ages. Even if the HG originated in the north it became more common in the Balkans.

Also how is it that Albanians were able to survive so unaffected by these migrations, even more than Greeks? Did they just stay in some mountains the whole time and only come out much later in the 1100s when it was safe?
The I2a1b in the Balkans came from Slavic migrations into the Balkans. I2a-Din probably has an origin around NW Europe going by the fact that a SHG sample with I2a-Din was found in Sweden/Motala, so it was probably assimilated into the Slavs during a migration to these east. Albanians originate from a cohesive but small group of Paleo-balkanites(Probably and Illyrian tribe) that isolated itself probably in the highlands of the north which were called Prokletije by the Slavs which means "Cursed Mountains" as they couldn't settle or stay there due to the conditions but the Albanians were able to

[Kelmendasi]

Hm, aren't the I haplogroups the most indigenous European haplos?
Yh, the I clades which were found in the ancient Balkans are I2a1a and I2a2a. Still though E-V13, J2b2, J2a etc all count as native in the Balkans or Europe

[Wrong]

So far we got this:

E-V13 = Thracians

J2b2-L283 = Illyrians

R1b-L23 = Both

[The Illyrian Warrior]

The I2a1b in the Balkans came from Slavic migrations into the Balkans. I2a-Din probably has an origin around NW Europe going by the fact that a SHG sample with I2a-Din was found in Sweden/Motala, so it was probably assimilated into the Slavs during a migration to these east. Albanians originate from a cohesive but small group of Paleo-balkanites(Probably and Illyrian tribe) that isolated itself probably in the highlands of the north which were called Prokletije by the Slavs which means "Cursed Mountains" as they couldn't settle or stay there due to the conditions but the Albanians were able to

Only after roman and slavic migration we were concentrated in northern Albanian mountains and preserved the language, people who were at lower latitudes were either latinized or slavicized, before two people came in the region, we certainly were more widespread geographically.

[Wrong]

Also how is it that Albanians were able to survive so unaffected by these migrations, even more than Greeks? Did they just stay in some mountains the whole time and only come out much later in the 1100s when it was safe?
This is the problem with Slavic propaganda. We weren't as isolated as some people like to think, such as hiding in a mountain until the perfect time arrived to come down.

Doesn't matter what Albanians called themselves back then, they were always chiefly present in those lands.

[Kelmendasi]

Only after roman and slavic migration we were concentrated in northern Albanian mountains and preserved the language, people who were at lower latitudes were either latinized or slavicized, before two people came in the region, we certainly were more widespread geographically.
Yh true, we were pushed up into the highlands especially when the Romans had occupied the coastal areas

[Kelmendasi]

This is the problem with Slavic propaganda. We weren't as isolated as some people like to think.

Doesn't matter what Albanians called themselves back then, they were always chiefly present in those lands.
The proto-Albanians definitely were isolated in the mountains going by linguistics and genetics, probably due to them being pushed up by occupiers. The Illyrians themselves probably weren't as much of a homogeneous group

[The Illyrian Warrior]

So far we got this:

E-V13 = Thracians

J2b2-L283 = Illyrians

R1b-L23 = Both

I think E-V13 is more broadly found, we have a father clade of E-V13 which was found somewhere in Dalmatia which suggest that E-V13 was most certainly found in all pre Slavic groups, from Illyrians, Thracian til ancient Greeks, if we could give an simplistic answer, E-V13 is exactly that hg which is correct to say that was/is essentially a Pelasgian hg among few others.

[Kelmendasi]

So far we got this:

E-V13 = Thracians

J2b2-L283 = Illyrians

R1b-L23 = Both
E-V13 definitely was present in Illyrians as well, alongside Bulgaria the border between Montenegro, Albania and Serbia show the highest diversity for E-V13

[Wrong]

I think E-V13 is more broadly found, we have a father clade of E-V13 which was found somewhere in Dalmatia which suggest that E-V13 was most certainly found in all pre Slavic groups, from Illyrians, Thracian til ancient Greeks, if we could give an simplistic answer, E-V13 is exactly that hg which is correct to say that was/is essentially a Pelasgian hg among few others.
Yeah. I am merely stating this from the Bronze/Iron Age Balkan samples, dating closely to the times of these populations.

[Kelmendasi]

I think E-V13 is more broadly found, we have a father clade of E-V13 which was found somewhere in Dalmatia which suggest that E-V13 was most certainly found in all pre Slavic groups, from Illyrians, Thracian til ancient Greeks, if we could give an simplistic answer, E-V13 is exactly that hg which is correct to say that was/is essentially a Pelasgian hg among few others.
I think the Pelasgians were mainly J2a and G2a and that E-V13 was mainly concentrated north of Greece and probably expanded into Greece later on from the north

[Kamal900]

The proto-Albanians definitely were isolated in the mountains going by linguistics and genetics, probably due to them being pushed up by occupiers. The Illyrians themselves probably weren't as much of a homogeneous group

It make sense considering that Albanians as a whole are genetically very closely related to one another when it comes to autosomal studies. Your ancestors could have been those Illyrian people or closely related paleo-Balkan people that went up the mountains for safety when the Slavs first invaded the Balkans in the early middle ages. Though, I'm not really sure on how Balkan the southern Slavs are genetically on average since Stearsolina score around half-half Southern and Eastern European.

[Wrong]

The proto-Albanians definitely were isolated in the mountains going by linguistics and genetics, probably due to them being pushed up by occupiers. The Illyrians themselves probably weren't as much of a homogeneous group
According to this, every proto-Albanian was pushed out from North Albania and Dardania(Kosovo) upto the Prokletije.

[Kelmendasi]

It make sense considering that Albanians as a whole are genetically very closely related to one another when it comes to autosomal studies. Your ancestors could have been those Illyrian people or closely related paleo-Balkan people that went up the mountains for safety when the Slavs first invaded the Balkans in the early middle ages. Though, I'm not really sure on how Balkan the southern Slavs are genetically on average since Stearsolina score around half-half Southern and Eastern European.
Yh going by IBD analysis Albanians were pretty isolated. Also the Albanian language is suggested by linguists to be a language that evolved in the mountainous regions of northern Albania or Kosovo although there are native words in Albanian linked to the sea and sea animals which tells us that the ancestors of the Albanians had contact with the sea and had seafaring knowledge and were pushed up inland probably during Roman occupation

[Jana]

It make sense considering that Albanians as a whole are genetically very closely related to one another when it comes to autosomal studies. Your ancestors could have been those Illyrian people or closely related paleo-Balkan people that went up the mountains for safety when the Slavs first invaded the Balkans in the early middle ages. Though, I'm not really sure on how Balkan the southern Slavs are genetically on average since Stearsolina score around half-half Southern and Eastern European.

I score more eastern than southern European! :)

[Kelmendasi]

According to this, every proto-Albanian was pushed out from North Albania and Dardania(Kosovo) upto the Prokletije.
The Prokletije/Bjeshket e neumuna are a part of the Dinaric mountains which covers Montenegro, North Albania and Kosovo

[Kamal900]

Yh going by IBD analysis Albanians were pretty isolated. Also the Albanian language is suggested by linguists to be a language that evolved in the mountainous regions of northern Albania or Kosovo although there are native words in Albanian linked to the sea and sea animals which tells us that the ancestors of the Albanians had contact with the sea and had seafaring knowledge and were pushed up inland probably during Roman occupation

True. I mean, the Albanian language is around 3,000 years old which had diverged from the PIE language before the Balto-Slavic languages did. There were Illyrians who were pirates and sailors back in the day as well, especially those that were living up the coasts.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Yeah. I am merely stating this from the Bronze/Iron Age Balkan samples, dating closely to the times of these populations.

If a sample of E-V13 was found in Dalmatia dating of Neolithic period this should tell us enough that the region had high ever present E-V13 throughout all Balkans, this hg most certainly was passed to all groups equally and not exclusively in one group.

[Wrong]

If a sample of E-V13 was found in Dalmatia dating of Neolithic period this should tell us enough that the region had high ever present E-V13 throughout all Balkans, this hg most certainly was passed to all groups equally and not exclusively in one group.
J2b2 that was found in Ancient Dalmatia reaches 2% nowadays there.

[Wrong]

The Prokletije/Bjeshket e neumuna are a part of the Dinaric mountains which covers Montenegro, North Albania and Kosovo
Yeah, I meant the fields.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

J2b2 that was found in Ancient Dalmatia reaches 2% nowadays there.

You are forgetting that the region was one of the first to colonized by Romans, latter by Slavs, so normally shouldn't come as surprise to have such a low %, this doesn't tells much to dismiss my past argument.

[Wrong]

You are forgetting that the region was one of the first to colonized by Romans, latter by Slavs, so normally shouldn't come as surprise to have such a low %, this doesn't tells much to dismiss my past argument.
You are correct. I was not arguing even.

[ovidiu]

Yes, yes I get it it you're saying it came from Slavs but that's a very broad statement; are you guys are saying that R1a z280 and I2b Din came down with the same exact group of people? Why did some become more common than others in places? What about the division between Slavic tribes like the Antes vs Sclaveni, the Veneti, the White Croats and Serbs in the area around Poland and Slovakia? Wouldn't some tribes have had more of one haplogroup than the other? And after all, it's defined primarily by cultural-linguistic groups, which could have assimilated other people. I wonder what the original Slavic haplogroup was right after breaking off of PIE. There was more than one archaeological culture associated with them. It's not like they were this monolith people like some seem to treat them here.

I like Albanians but I feel like the ones here are really forcefully pushing for this whole I2b thing as soon as it emerged in studies to prove how foreign Serbs are and such.

Also about the surviving in mountains and isolated areas; the same goes for Vlachs, although they later assimilated better into surrounding peoples. And I believe many former Albanian speakers became integrated into a variety of their neighbors.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes, yes I get it it you're saying it came from Slavs but that's a very broad statement; are you guys are saying that R1a z280 and I2b Din came down with the same exact group of people? Why did some become more common than others in places? What about the division between Slavic tribes like the Antes vs Sclaveni, the Veneti, the White Croats and Serbs in the area around Poland and Slovakia? Wouldn't some tribes have had more of one haplogroup than the other? And after all, it's defined primarily by cultural-linguistic groups, which could have assimilated other people. I wonder what the original Slavic haplogroup was right after breaking off of PIE. There was more than one archaeological culture associated with them. It's not like they were this monolith people like some seem to treat them here.

I like Albanians but I feel like the ones here are really forcefully pushing for this whole I2b thing as soon as it emerged in studies to prove how foreign Serbs are and such.

Also about the surviving in mountains and isolated areas; the same goes for Vlachs, although they later assimilated better into surrounding peoples. And I believe many former Albanian speakers became integrated into a variety of their neighbors.
It’s not really a bold statement considering that literally all pieces of modern evidence suggests it. I2a-Din reaches its highest diversity in around Poland and Ukraine suggesting an expansion from that region and the TMRCA of the Slavic clades suggests an expansion from the middle ages. Although I2a1b itself has an origin from the WHG of Western Europe and Northern Europe so it had to migrate east and then into the Slavic ethnos. I2a1b-Din is really frequent in South Slavs purely because of things like founder effects and breeding biases which means that the I2a1b carrying Slavs in the Balkans were able to produce more sons than the other guys that had different haplogroups thus resulting in I2a1b being more dominant. The IE people that brought the Slavic language were probably R1a-Z280. Albanians aren’t forcing anything, we are just stating facts I personally wouldn’t even care if I2a-Din was native but evidence just doesn’t back that up at all

[Lek]

Yes, yes I get it it you're saying it came from Slavs but that's a very broad statement; are you guys are saying that R1a z280 and I2b Din came down with the same exact group of people? Why did some become more common than others in places? What about the division between Slavic tribes like the Antes vs Sclaveni, the Veneti, the White Croats and Serbs in the area around Poland and Slovakia? Wouldn't some tribes have had more of one haplogroup than the other? And after all, it's defined primarily by cultural-linguistic groups, which could have assimilated other people. I wonder what the original Slavic haplogroup was right after breaking off of PIE. There was more than one archaeological culture associated with them. It's not like they were this monolith people like some seem to treat them here.

I like Albanians but I feel like the ones here are really forcefully pushing for this whole I2b thing as soon as it emerged in studies to prove how foreign Serbs are and such.

Also about the surviving in mountains and isolated areas; the same goes for Vlachs, although they later assimilated better into surrounding peoples. And I believe many former Albanian speakers became integrated into a variety of their neighbors.

Yes it came with r1a z280 and became more common from a founder effect / bottle neck. Its only a coincidence that not r1a reaches peak in Bosnia etc but rather I2a din.

And yes, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland and it was never found in any ancient Balkan remains despite having a huge frequency there today, but rather more common ydnas among Albanians etc were found and Albanians do not even live today in those areas.

Proto Vlachs and proto Albanians were probably same people and co existed in Kosovo, Macedonia etc prior to Slavic expansion and during Roman era.

[Kelmendasi]

Yes it came with r1a z280 and became more common from a founder effect / bottle neck. Its only a coincidence that not r1a reaches peak in Bosnia etc but rather I2a din.

And yes, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland and it was never found in any ancient Balkan remains despite having a huge frequency there today, but rather more common ydnas among Albanians etc were found and Albanians do not even live today in those areas.

Proto Vlachs and proto Albanians were probably same people and co existed in Kosovo, Macedonia etc prior to Slavic expansion and during Roman era.
Proto-Albanians seem to have had contact with Vlachs or an eastern Romance populace early on although these Vlachs could just have been latinised Albanians. I think that the ancestors of Proto-Albanians/Albanians were the Illyrians that had lived around the coast judging by how Albanians have some unique native maritime words although going by the rest of the Albanian language which is described as a language of the mountains we can assume that these people were pushed inland during Roman occupation of the coast where they would later develop into Proto-Albanians

[ovidiu]

Ok, I can agree with the above statements. I didn't say it was a bold statement, rather just vague at the time, but now I get what you're saying. That would also indicate almost half the haplogroup percentage in Romania is one of these Slavic types too. Which is fine. But autosomally they're only like around a quarter Slavic from the studies I've read. Croatia being like almost 3/4 so in terms of haplogroups if you add them together, which is more than Russia and some other north Slavic countries even lol. That's why I think HGs may be a somewhat misleading indicator of the true presence of a certain genetic influence in a population. But they're still important.

And regarding Vlachs in general, there was undoubtedly close contact between early East Romance/Proto-Romanian speakers and Albanian, and maybe they came from the same "well" of people originally, so to speak, or maybe they had some differences but coalesced during the Roman era. But it's hard to actually call the people of that era Albanian. That was a later identity wasn't it? At the time they were just a variety of Thraco-Illyrian tribes. Also, the Romanized Dacians north of the Danube that were partly pulled back over the river after the legions retreat at the end of the 3rd century probably joined them eventually.

So R-L23 was found in both Thracians and Illyrians then? While E-V13 and J were also common in them but had origins outside the region ultimately?

[Kelmendasi]

Ok, I can agree with the above statements. I didn't say it was a bold statement, rather just vague at the time, but now I get what you're saying. That would also indicate almost half the haplogroup percentage in Romania is one of these Slavic types too. Which is fine. But autosomally they're only like around a quarter Slavic from the studies I've read. Croatia being like almost 3/4 so in terms of haplogroups if you add them together, which is more than Russia and some other north Slavic countries even lol. That's why I think HGs may be a somewhat misleading indicator of the true presence of a certain genetic influence in a population. But they're still important.

And regarding Vlachs in general, there was undoubtedly close contact between early East Romance/Proto-Romanian speakers and Albanian, and maybe they came from the same "well" of people originally, so to speak, or maybe they had some differences but coalesced during the Roman era. But it's hard to actually call the people of that era Albanian. That was a later identity wasn't it? At the time they were just a variety of Thraco-Illyrian tribes. Also, the Romanized Dacians north of the Danube that were partly pulled back over the river after the legions retreat at the end of the 3rd century probably joined them eventually.

So R-L23 was found in both Thracians and Illyrians then? While E-V13 and J were also common in them but had origins outside the region ultimately?
Yh, haplogroups don't show the full picture in genetics. I would regard them as being proto-Albanians as they were a people that had began to develop into Albanians. R1b-L23 came into the Balkans with IE cultures such as the Vucedol and Yamnaya and was probably the haplogroup that expanded the IE Balkan languages, R1b-L23 itself has been found in ancient Hungary, Croatia(Vucedol) and Russia(Yamnaya) iirc. E-V13 probably has origin in the western Balkans considering that the father clade(E1b-L618) was found in Neolithic Dalmatia and it also reaches highest diversities in the border between northern Albania, Montenegro and Serbia although it also reaches high diversity in Bulgaria. J2b2 might have come into the Balkans during the early Bronze Age as a haplo assimilated into the IE cultures and then expanded with them into the Balkans, it was found in a proto-Illyrian sample from Dalmatia or it could have come during the late Neolithic from west Asia, J2a came during the Neolithic from west Asia

[Lek]

Ok, I can agree with the above statements. I didn't say it was a bold statement, rather just vague at the time, but now I get what you're saying. That would also indicate almost half the haplogroup percentage in Romania is one of these Slavic types too. Which is fine. But autosomally they're only like around a quarter Slavic from the studies I've read. Croatia being like almost 3/4 so in terms of haplogroups if you add them together, which is more than Russia and some other north Slavic countries even lol. That's why I think HGs may be a somewhat misleading indicator of the true presence of a certain genetic influence in a population. But they're still important.

And regarding Vlachs in general, there was undoubtedly close contact between early East Romance/Proto-Romanian speakers and Albanian, and maybe they came from the same "well" of people originally, so to speak, or maybe they had some differences but coalesced during the Roman era. But it's hard to actually call the people of that era Albanian. That was a later identity wasn't it? At the time they were just a variety of Thraco-Illyrian tribes. Also, the Romanized Dacians north of the Danube that were partly pulled back over the river after the legions retreat at the end of the 3rd century probably joined them eventually.

So R-L23 was found in both Thracians and Illyrians then? While E-V13 and J were also common in them but had origins outside the region ultimately?

Autosomally many Romanians atleast from the North are quite Slavic influenced especially Moldovians if they are considered Romanians. This is also shown by their y chromosomes like r1a and i2a.

There are Romanians that are more native Balkan.

No, y chromosomes dont always indicate autosomal admixture. That is true. You can see this in certain populations like Sardinians, Arbereshe and some other Albanians but that is totally besides the point as autosomally majority of South Slavs are quite Slavic influenced compared to majority of Albanians and they also happen to have on average more y chromosomes related with such an expansion.

[Jana]

. Croatia being like almost 3/4 so in terms of haplogroups if you add them together,

What are you talking about ? I2-dinaric is around 35% in Croatia and R1a around 25 %, which adds to around 60% of Slavic lineages which is exactly in line with out Slavic autosomal ancestry, because we are on average around 60/40 Slavic/Illyrian.

[Jana]

Autosomally many Romanians atleast from the North are quite Slavic influenced especially Moldovians if they are considered Romanians. This is also shown by their y chromosomes like r1a and i2a.

Deymark has Roman haplogroup, but he is genetically more Slavic influenced than average Hungarian or Southern Slav.

[Lek]

Deymark has Roman haplogroup, but he is genetically more Slavic influenced than average Hungarian or Southern Slav.

Yh I have seen his results . Ydna and autosomal dont always go together. Other Albos here like drawing slim that are i2a1b are autosomally more ''Balkan'' than some Albos with more typical ydnas for example.

[ovidiu]

Yh, haplogroups don't show the full picture in genetics. I would regard them as being proto-Albanians as they were a people that had began to develop into Albanians. R1b-L23 came into the Balkans with IE cultures such as the Vucedol and Yamnaya and was probably the haplogroup that expanded the IE Balkan languages, R1b-L23 itself has been found in ancient Hungary, Croatia(Vucedol) and Russia(Yamnaya) iirc. E-V13 probably has origin in the western Balkans considering that the father clade(E1b-L618) was found in Neolithic Dalmatia and it also reaches highest diversities in the border between northern Albania, Montenegro and Serbia although it also reaches high diversity in Bulgaria. J2b2 might have come into the Balkans during the early Bronze Age as a haplo assimilated into the IE cultures and then expanded with them into the Balkans, it was found in a proto-Illyrian sample from Dalmatia or it could have come during the late Neolithic from west Asia, J2a came during the Neolithic from west Asia

What do you guys think of this excerpt from Mommsen's book on the Roman empire which I also mentioned in another thread:

"[I]The native population were driven out from the best part of the land, and these districts were reoccupied with a non–national population brought in from the mountains of Dalmatia, for the mines, and otherwise preponderantly, as it would appear, from Asia Minor. In several regions, no doubt, the old population yet remained, and even the language of the country maintained its ground. These Dacians, as well as the sections dwelling beyond the bounds, still gave trouble to the Romans—subsequently, for example, under Commodus and Maximinus; but they stood isolated, and dwindled away."

Could some of the J be of (of course pre-Turkish) Anatolian origin? It also says many were brought in from Dalmatia


Autosomally many Romanians atleast from the North are quite Slavic influenced especially Moldovians if they are considered Romanians. This is also shown by their y chromosomes like r1a and i2a.

There are Romanians that are more native Balkan.

No, y chromosomes dont always indicate autosomal admixture. That is true. You can see this in certain populations like Sardinians, Arbereshe and some other Albanians but that is totally besides the point as autosomally majority of South Slavs are quite Slavic influenced compared to majority of Albanians and they also happen to have on average more y chromosomes related with such an expansion.

Well sure, but I'm not talking about the north and the fringes near Ukraine and Moldova, I'm more concerned with the core lands. I was also talking about in the aggregate, collectively, rather than individually. And the way you worded it, you make it sound like just a few here and there are more native than Slavic when I think that's the majority lol. There are even a decent amount in the north like Maramures who look autocthonous, and I've seen a few who sort of resembled some Albanians up there, believe it or not. But yes the more I read into this stuff the more I realize the Slavic influence is not insignificant by any stretch. Some people are more influenced than others. I have relatively little personally but others may have significantly more (most I've seen here don't get much more than 25% combined on the East Euro and South Baltic Gedmatch categories though). Doesn't matter. Both are cool cultures and I wouldn't say one is better than the other. Makes the diversity more interesting. Romanians are quite varied in terms of background too, being the largest population country in the region.

You got to keep in mind it's not only Slavs and paleo-Balkanic peoples that are the only ones to factor in; it seems like all the discussions center around them. Especially when it comes to Transylvania, which has a notable Central European leaning, there are other things. Sure that is like the northernmost bastion of paleo-Balkanic Daco-Illyrians but... You also have to factor in the Celts, who were there for quite a while (even the supposed ancient Italo-Celtic homeland probably wasn't far from it), some Germanic peoples like the Visigoths, Gepids, Vandals, etc. and probably minimal contribution of some Transylvanian Saxons. And the Iranic Jazyges settled around there in the west (not to mention Hungarians, which themselves are a blend of other things aside from Slavs). In the east and Moldova Scytho-Sarmatians had a lot of outposts in antiquity. All these are probably just sprinklings upon older Neolithic layers of population.

And sure I have nothing against South Slavs having Slavic background either. Although in the case of Bulgarians and Macedonians, its relatively little and they cluster roughly around where we do.

Oh and Sardinians are another good example, yes. With their I2a variant.

[Kelmendasi]

What do you guys think of this excerpt from Mommsen's book on the Roman empire which I also mentioned in another thread:

"[I]The native population were driven out from the best part of the land, and these districts were reoccupied with a non–national population brought in from the mountains of Dalmatia, for the mines, and otherwise preponderantly, as it would appear, from Asia Minor. In several regions, no doubt, the old population yet remained, and even the language of the country maintained its ground. These Dacians, as well as the sections dwelling beyond the bounds, still gave trouble to the Romans—subsequently, for example, under Commodus and Maximinus; but they stood isolated, and dwindled away."

Could some of the J be of (of course pre-Turkish) Anatolian origin? It also says many were brought in from Dalmatia



Well sure, but I'm not talking about the north and the fringes near Ukraine and Moldova, I'm more concerned with the core lands. I was also talking about in the aggregate, collectively, rather than individually. And the way you worded it, you make it sound like just a few here and there are more native than Slavic when I think that's the majority lol. There are even a decent amount in the north like Maramures who look autocthonous, and I've seen a few who sort of resembled some Albanians up there, believe it or not. But yes the more I read into this stuff the more I realize the Slavic influence is not insignificant by any stretch. Some people are more influenced than others. I have relatively little personally but others may have significantly more (most I've seen here don't get much more than 25% combined on the East Euro and South Baltic Gedmatch categories though). Doesn't matter. Both are cool cultures and I wouldn't say one is better than the other. Makes the diversity more interesting. Romanians are quite varied in terms of background too, being the largest population country in the region.

You got to keep in mind it's not only Slavs and paleo-Balkanic peoples that are the only ones to factor in; it seems like all the discussions center around them. Especially when it comes to Transylvania, which has a notable Central European leaning, there are other things. Sure that is like the northernmost bastion of paleo-Balkanic Daco-Illyrians but... You also have to factor in the Celts, who were there for quite a while (even the supposed ancient Italo-Celtic homeland probably wasn't far from it), some Germanic peoples like the Visigoths, Gepids, Vandals, etc. and probably minimal contribution of some Transylvanian Saxons. And the Iranic Jazyges settled around there in the west (not to mention Hungarians, which themselves are a blend of other things aside from Slavs). In the east and Moldova Scytho-Sarmatians had a lot of outposts in antiquity. All these are probably just sprinklings upon older Neolithic layers of population.

And sure I have nothing against South Slavs having Slavic background either. Although in the case of Bulgarians and Macedonians, its relatively little and they cluster roughly around where we do.

Oh and Sardinians are another good example, yes. With their I2a variant.
I guess it could be probable that some peoples did move into Dacia when it went under Roman occupation, the J in Romania is mainly J2a and J2b2 both of which have been in Europe since the Neolithic or Bronze Age making them European although there might be some Anatolian J2a clades perhaps

[Leto]

the J in Romania is mainly J2a and J2b2 both of which have been in Europe since the Neolithic or Bronze Age making them European although there might be some Anatolian J2a clades perhaps
There was a guy called SSlava on here, he is Russian from South Russia. His Y hg is J2a, however he shows no signs of elevated Caucasian admixture. In fact he is more Western than many Russians.

[Kelmendasi]

There was a guy called SSlava on here, he is Russian from South Russia. His Y hg is J2a, however he shows no signs of elevated Caucasian admixture. In fact he is more Western than many Russians.
Going by the fact that he is J2a and from Southern Russia I would assume his J2a to be of the same clade as Chechens or Caucasians but he doesn't show Caucasian admix although this could be one of those cases where Ydna and admix don't go hand in hand. What clade was he?

[Leto]

Going by the fact that he is J2a and from Southern Russia I would assume his J2a to be of the same clade as Chechens or Caucasians but he doesn't show Caucasian admix although this could be one of those cases where Ydna and admix don't go hand in hand. What clade was he?

Y-DNA J2a1a2b2a1(J-CTS6804)
mtDNA T2

[Jana]

There was a guy called SSlava on here, he is Russian from South Russia. His Y hg is J2a, however he shows no signs of elevated Caucasian admixture. In fact he is more Western than many Russians.

Therte was Croat user here that has Caucasian type of J2a, if I'm not mistaken. He was north Croat.

[Kelmendasi]

The downstreams of J2a-CTS6804 are really common among Chechens

[Leto]

The downstreams of J2a-CTS6804 are really common among Chechens
Well, I guess it's the same in Southeastern Europe, isn't it? The have the strongest Caucasian influence outside of the Caucasus itself.

[Kelmendasi]

Well, I guess it's the same in Southeastern Europe, isn't it? The have the strongest Caucasian influence outside of the Caucasus itself.
No, the J2a in southeastern Europe isn't from this clade.

[Leto]

No, the J2a in southeastern Europe isn't from this clade.
Okay. But it's all from the Caucasus and the ME originally anyway. Relatively few Europeans are J2. However, SSlava is extremely Slavic, even more than me. I have his number.

[Kelmendasi]

Okay. But it's all from the Caucasus and the ME originally anyway. Relatively few Europeans are J2. However, SSlava is extremely Slavic, even more than me. I have his number.
Yh J is from the Caucasus originally but the majority of the caldes in Europe count as European going by their places of origin and how long they have been in Europe. This is a case where autosomal doesn't go hand in hand with ydna and it isn't unusual, my Ydna is completely atypical for Balkanites and I still am really Balkan autosomally

[Wrong]

Yh J is from the Caucasus originally but the majority of the caldes in Europe count as European going by their places of origin and how long they have been in Europe. This is a case where autosomal doesn't go hand in hand with ydna and it isn't unusual, my Ydna is completely atypical for Balkanites and I still am really Balkan autosomally
There was some J found in France from 11000ybp iirc. Saw it in some AncientDNA map.

[Kelmendasi]

There was some J found in France from 11000ybp.
According to Genetiker's analysis of that sample, it turns out that it was in fact I2-M438 https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/21/y-snp-calls-from-ancient-southeastern-europe/. J was found in an EHG sample from Karelia however

[Wrong]

According to Genetiker's analysis of that sample, it turns out that it was in fact I2-M438 https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/21/y-snp-calls-from-ancient-southeastern-europe/. J was found in an EHG sample from Karelia however

Clear fact is that Proto-Indo Europeans were strongly influenced by J-carriers as it turned out in their admixture.

[Leto]

Yh J is from the Caucasus originally but the majority of the caldes in Europe count as European going by their places of origin and how long they have been in Europe. This is a case where autosomal doesn't go hand in hand with ydna and it isn't unusual, my Ydna is completely atypical for Balkanites and I still am really Balkan autosomally
To me J1 people are damn Jews, lol. Rethel calls them Semites.
Yes, of course you are 100% Albanian (even on FTDNA you are 100% SE Euro).

[Kelmendasi]

To me J1 people are damn Jews, lol. Rethel calls them Semites.
Yes, of course you are 100% Albanian (even on FTDNA you are 100% SE Euro).
J1 has origin in the Paleolithic CHG from the Caucasus or Iran but it then expanded south into the ME and was then absorbed by Neolithic peoples and expanded into the Levant where it then mixed with Afro-Asiatic peoples and became part of the Proto-Semitic ethnos, so J1 itself isn't Semitic in origin but rather a haplogroup absorbed into their ethnos. J1 is still one of the dominant haplogroups of the Caucasus and is found in like 99% of the people from Dagestan and other regions there although the clade is different from that in the Levant or Arabia.

[Leto]

J1 has origin in the Paleolithic CHG from the Caucasus or Iran but it then expanded south into the ME and was then absorbed by Neolithic peoples and expanded into the Levant where it then mixed with Afro-Asiatic peoples and became part of the Proto-Semitic ethnos, so J1 itself isn't Semitic in origin but rather a haplogroup absorbed into their ethnos. J1 is still one of the dominant haplogroups of the Caucasus and is found in like 99% of the people from Dagestan and other regions there although the clade is different from that in the Levant or Arabia.
I thought the Northeast Caucasus was mainly J2, not J1.

[black hole]

G2a is the indigenous haplogroup in Caucasus. The main haplogroups are G2a, J2 and J1 in Caucasus, however you can find R1a, R1b and Q.

[Wrong]

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/chalcolithic_europe.png

[Kelmendasi]

I thought the Northeast Caucasus was mainly J2, not J1.
Areas like Chechnya are mainly J2 although they also have high J1 frequencies, but places like Dagestan are overwhelmingly J1. J1 is linked to the Northeastern Caucasian languages in those regions such as Dargic, Avar and Andic

[Pahli]

I thought the Northeast Caucasus was mainly J2, not J1.

Dagestan is mostly J1, I am J1 too and might share the same subclade as them since I don't have carry J-P58 which is the dominantly Semitic subclade

[Kelmendasi]

G2a is the indigenous haplogroup in Caucasus. The main haplogroups are G2a, J2 and J1 in Caucasus, however you can find R1a, R1b and Q.
I have read sources suggesting that G2 expanded into the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia from the fertile crescent

[Wrong]

Even in Dusan's code he outlawed marriage between Serbs and Vlachs which is enough proof how Slavic I2a1b-CTS10228 got into Vlach genepool.

[Wrong]

I have read sources suggesting that G2 expanded into the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia from the fertile crescent
G2 carried 0% CHG admixture, so yeah this makes sense.

[Kelmendasi]

Dagestan is mostly J1, I am J1 too and might share the same subclade as them since I don't have carry J-P58 which is the dominantly Semitic subclade
Yh, the Dargins and Avars can reach like 90% J1 in frequency

[Pahli]

G2 carried 0% CHG admixture, so yeah this makes sense.

G2b was found in Neolithic Iran, so it might be a CHG related haplogroup

[Leto]

Yh, the Dargins and Avars can reach like 90% J1 in frequency
Interestingly, those groups can get 20-25% NE Euro on GEDmatch calcs.

[black hole]

Areas like Chechnya are mainly J2 although they also have high J1 frequencies, but places like Dagestan are overwhelmingly J1. J1 is linked to the Northeastern Caucasian languages in those regions such as Dargic, Avar and Andic





http://suyun.info/userfiles/image029.png


Армяне = Armenians
Грузины = Georgians
Абхазы = Abkhazians
Кабардинцы = Kabardians
Абазины = Abazins
Черкесы = Circassians
Адыгейцы = Adygeans




Chechens

https://pp.vk.me/c624519/v624519728/4614b/e8b0boiXdeo.jpg



Ossetians

http://s017.radikal.ru/i438/1612/b9/adda77f3b52e.png

[Kelmendasi]

G2b was found in Neolithic Iran, so it might be a CHG related haplogroup
It could have expanded into Iran though during the Neolithic from somewhere in the fertile crescent, iirc G2 is most diverse in the Levant area

[Leto]

R1a is VERY rare in Ossetians given that they are an Iranic-speaking people.

[Kelmendasi]

[mg]http://suyun.info/userfiles/image029.png[/img]


Армяне = Armenians
Грузины = Georgians
Абхазы = Abkhazians
Кабардинцы = Kabardians
Абазины = Abazins
Черкесы = Circassians
Адыгейцы = Adygeans




Chechens

[im]https://pp.vk.me/c624519/v624519728/4614b/e8b0boiXdeo.jpg[/img]



Ossetians

[im]http://s017.radikal.ru/i438/1612/b9/adda77f3b52e.png[/img]
Seems like the more west you go the lower the frequency of J1 gets in the Caucasus

[Pahli]

It could have expanded into Iran though during the Neolithic from somewhere in the fertile crescent, iirc G2 is most diverse in the Levant area

CHG related people are one of the first to carry G2, Levant people got it later

[black hole]

Ossetian DNA project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian?iframe=yresults



Chechen DNA project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nakhdna/default.aspx?section=yresults



Georgian DNA project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Wrong]

CHG related people are one of the first to carry G2, Levant people got it later
How come the Anatolian G2-Farmers that spread into Europe carried 0% CHG then?

[Kelmendasi]

CHG related people are one of the first to carry G2, Levant people got it later
Could be, the earliest G2a samples seem to pop up among the Neolithic samples of Turkey

[Pahli]

How come the Anatolian G2-Farmers that spread into Europe carried 0% CHG then?

Well Neolithic Iranian people had 0% Anatolian farmer admixture, so it could mean that it originated in a common ancestor that spread in different subclades

[Kelmendasi]

Well Neolithic Iranian people had 0% Anatolian farmer admixture, so it could mean that it originated in a common ancestor that spread in different subclades
I was reading about G2a on eupedia and they seem to suggest that G2a expanded from the fertile Crescent into Anatolia and the Caucasus whilst G2b expanded from Iran into the fertile crescent and Pakistan. G2 developed somewhere around west Asia at a time when people were still HG so they seem to have been the people to first develop farming

[Kelmendasi]

Studies on the Valachs/Vlachs of the Czech republic shows them as being mainly R1a which further suggests that Vlachs take on the genetics of the host nation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/. Study on the Aromanians https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x

[ovidiu]

Do you guys think the PIE people were just homogenously one main haplogroup (R1) at first? Didn't they emerge potentially out of some older Caucasus culture to the south of their supposed homeland? Maybe the link with J is deeper?

[Dragoon]

Language and genetics are not the same, though there is overlap.

Every person/group is mixed with genetics (lets say various European groupings of Meso, Neolithic, Bronze age.)

You cant generalize everything based on ydna.

Some of these haplogroups, subgroups have been around longer than languages.