Classify Penelope and Monica Cruz.

[Sikeliot]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ06vJWk8oDTgDkI5u2_Jq3KF1w3eVWN QT_OQ54qlkrshY_5n3Czg&t=1 http://www.itusozluk.com/img.php/339d434c111af1dfa23c0b216380d9831270/monica%2Bcruz

[Ibericus]

Again another thread about Cruz, what is your obsession with her ? There are plenty, go to the searcher.

[Beorn]

http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Daffy-Duck-masturbating.jpg

[Korbis]

Oh, this one is easy.

Gracile-West mediterranid with gypsy admixture.

And Monica is 1000 times hotter than her annoying sister.

[Comte Arnau]

30% Sub-Saharian, 30% Super-Saharian, 30% Swarthid, 10% Jew.

[Sikeliot]

Again another thread about Cruz, what is your obsession with her ? There are plenty, go to the searcher.

I didn't create another thread about her, I mentioned her once in another post. Don't like, don't read. :thumb001:

[Sikeliot]

Oh, this one is easy.

Gracile-West mediterranid with gypsy admixture.

And Monica is 1000 times hotter than her annoying sister.

Is there actually any proof she has Gypsy admixture? She's a little exotic, but I figured it was just a rumor.

And yes I agree, Monica is much prettier.

[mymy]

Oh, this one is easy.

Gracile-West mediterranid with gypsy admixture.

And Monica is 1000 times hotter than her annoying sister.

Agree.

[Ibericus]

I didn't create another thread about her, I mentioned her once in another post. Don't like, don't read. :thumb001:
There is an older thread about her with more than 40 pages :thumb001:

[Sikeliot]

I'll go look at it then.

[Agrippa]

Pred. Gracilmediterranid both, great genes it seems, if looking at both of them - Monica looks better imo. The only possible admixture I see could be slight Alpinoid, very slight.

Basic Mediterranid.

[EvilDave]

http://i.imgur.com/zkCCAkC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nlcDPdD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HRcZIFb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mTE5BeE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E9SmzlL.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Typologically she is just Med, but I get a Middle Eastern type of vibe.

[Siginulfo]

Mediterranid mostly. Ho solo io l'impressione che sia un po' rifatta?:rolleyes:

[gold_fenix]

med gracil/ atlanto med

[Baron Samedi]

Perfection.

[Money Shot]

I classify her as HOT.

[leisitox]

textbook gracil med for females

[Seeker]

Med and hot, nuff said.

[Armand_Duval]

med gracil/ atlanto med

Same here!. :thumb001:

[Agrippa]

Pred. Gracilmediterranid.

[Laubach]

gracilmed and she isn´t has levantine vibe. Her look is common

[research_centre]

Typologically she is just Med, but I get a Middle Eastern type of vibe.

I always felt the same, strongly!

[Anthropologique]

I believe her father is part gypsy, but it doesn't on show up on her. Her sister is a different story.

[research_centre]

I believe her father is part gypsy, but it doesn't on her. Her sister is a different story.

She looks it too. I find her very ordinary.

[Sikeliot]

Her sister and especially her brother look very odd for Spain.

[King Fingolfin]

I agree, Gracile-Mediterranid. When tanned she has an exotic vibe.

[Laubach]

Her brother

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9536/celebeduardocruz240x285.jpg

her sister

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9810/monicacruzglamourawards.jpg

if you walk the streets you will find many Spanish people like them.

[Sikeliot]

Not the brother. Her sister maybe is just weird looking because of the ridiculous tan.

[King Fingolfin]

Not the brother. Her sister maybe is just weird looking because of the ridiculous tan.

Well, I think there's some Moorish blood in them...

[Laubach]

Not the brother. Her sister maybe is just weird looking because of the ridiculous tan.

Her brother is common. I say that is the most common type of Spanish that I saw when I was over in Spain.

[Sikeliot]

Her brother is common. I say that is the most common type of Spanish that I saw when I was over in Spain.



I'd have to go to Spain and judge for myself but I find that hard to believe.. he doesn't look European.

[Laubach]

Well, I think there's some Moorish blood in them...

I don´t see moorish blood in them.

[Alvarado]

I'd have to go to Spain and judge for myself but I find that hard to believe.. he doesn't look European.

Then many Spaniards don't look European.

[Laubach]

I'd have to go to Spain and judge for myself but I find that hard to believe.. he doesn't look European.

Rafael Nadal, David Villa, Antônio Bandeiras, many spanish football players, like hierro, Michel and others

[Sikeliot]

Rafael Nadal, David Villa, Antônio Bandeiras, many spanish football players, like hierro, Michel and others

They don't look like him.

[Alvarado]

They don't look like him.

He is not even "exotic" by our standards.

[Laubach]

They don't look like him.

I cited examples of Spain that are disputed and many say they are not Europeans. The best way is to go to spain and draw their own conclusions. but for me, they are not "exotic"

[gold_fenix]

I think it is because he has a peculiar nose

[Sikeliot]

I cited examples of Spain that are disputed and many say they are not Europeans. The best way is to go to spain and draw their own conclusions. but for me, they are not "exotic"

I think they (the examples you cited) all look European EXCEPT Penelope Cruz's brother.

[Laubach]

I think they (the examples you cited) all look European EXCEPT Penelope Cruz's brother.

and you know all the people I mentioned? hehehhe. Well, all are children of the same couple, then, genetically speaking one can not be more European than the other. If Penelope Cruz and her sister, do you think Europeans will also be her brother. It´s simple

[Lábaru]

Penelope's brother look British.

http://www.peopleenespanol.com/sites/default/files/images/2011/09/24/eduardo_cruz_180.jpg

Andrew Lee Potts

http://img.poptower.com/pic-69240/andrew-lee-potts.jpg?d=600

[Alvarado]

Penelope's brother look British.

http://www.peopleenespanol.com/sites/default/files/images/2011/09/24/eduardo_cruz_180.jpg

Andrew Lee Potts

http://img.poptower.com/pic-69240/andrew-lee-potts.jpg?d=600

:lol00002:

[heyaitsme]

For me, she looks exotic and I can feel a middle eastern vibe.

[Sikeliot]

People classify her as Gracile Med as if that protects her from looking "eastern" but I've seen Levantine Christians who could be classified as Gracile Med of some sort though usually with Armenoid influence.

[Gratis]

Her brother looks like a textbook Iberian to me, not odd at all for Spain.

[Alvarado]

People classify her as Gracile Med as if that protects her from looking "eastern" but I've seen Levantine Christians who could be classified as Gracile Med of some sort though usually with Armenoid influence.

You said they don't look Spanish and that's not true at all. It doesn't matter if she looks "Levantine" to foreigners.

[Mordid]

LOL, if she doesn't look Spanish, so Paz Vega:
http://www.joblo.com/newsimages1/looks%20like5.jpg
Although, Paz Vega is somewhat more robust than her, being Atlanto-Med.

[Anthropologique]

Standard Spaniards don't look like Penelope Cruz' brother or sister and people like Rafi Nadal are atypical. Banderas is hardly exotic. Too many people see the guy on screen with "Mexican" make up. Just freaking dumb.

[Alvarado]

Standard Spaniards don't look like Penelope Cruz' brother or sister and people like Rafi Nadal are atypical. Banderas is hardly exotic. Too many people see the guy on screen with "Mexican" make up. Just freaking dumb.

I can assure you there are tons of Spaniards like Eduardo Cruz.

[Lábaru]

I can assure you there are tons of Spaniards like Eduardo Cruz.

Maybe in your Italian side of Iberia, average Cantabrian look in this way:


http://www.ligafutbol.net/wp-content/2010/01/sergio_canales_racing.jpg

[Sikeliot]

He doesn't look Italian either (Eduardo Cruz I mean).

[Lábaru]

He doesn't look Italian either (Eduardo Cruz I mean).

Come on....

http://www.apuestas.pro/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/seleccion_italia_210311.jpg

http://www.peopleenespanol.com/sites/default/files/images/2011/09/24/eduardo_cruz_180.jpg

Would you distinguish him if were a Italian player ?

[Sikeliot]

I'd think he was bizarre looking in ANY European country.. except Cyprus.

[Alvarado]

He doesn't look Italian either (Eduardo Cruz I mean).

OK. He looks like a Tuareg.

[Lábaru]

I'd think he was bizarre looking in ANY European country.. except Cyprus.

Not really, is a style of cesc fabregas or Xavi Hernández, maybe the more dark side of Iberians, but still fit in Spain without problem.

http://www.juegalaroja.com/media/galeria/199/6/1/4/3/o_seleccion_espanola_fondos-3416.jpg

Look the numbers 16, 8 and 7 ---->

http://www.radiolibertad.com/sites/default/files/banco_imagenes/xavihernandez_156431.jpg

http://www.barcelonaya.com/wp-content/uploads/david-villa-pichichi-seleccion.jpg

http://www.webdelcule.com/02-03/iniesta4.jpg

http://www.blaugranas.com/media/galeria/25/7/8/3/3/o_f_c_barcelona_cesc_fabregas-3463387.jpg



http://blogs.ya.com/masfutbol/files/DSC_2903.jpg

And for be honest in Italia is also not out of place:

http://www.elenganche.es/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/italia.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_u_byB1LPEr8/TCLRDPiqfeI/AAAAAAAAJD0/J2-WVO_ISkw/s1600/italia.jpg

Of course in Cantabria he is a Gypsy ;)

[Laubach]

Not really, is a style of cesc fabregas or Xavi Hernández, maybe the more dark side of Iberians, but still fit in Spain without problem.

http://www.juegalaroja.com/media/galeria/199/6/1/4/3/o_seleccion_espanola_fondos-3416.jpg

Look the numbers 16, 8 and 7 ---->

http://www.radiolibertad.com/sites/default/files/banco_imagenes/xavihernandez_156431.jpg

http://www.barcelonaya.com/wp-content/uploads/david-villa-pichichi-seleccion.jpg

http://www.webdelcule.com/02-03/iniesta4.jpg

http://www.blaugranas.com/media/galeria/25/7/8/3/3/o_f_c_barcelona_cesc_fabregas-3463387.jpg



http://blogs.ya.com/masfutbol/files/DSC_2903.jpg

And for be honest in Italia is also not out of place:

http://www.elenganche.es/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/italia.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_u_byB1LPEr8/TCLRDPiqfeI/AAAAAAAAJD0/J2-WVO_ISkw/s1600/italia.jpg

Of course in Cantabria he is a Gypsy ;)

estoy de acuerdo!

[Gratis]

I'd think he was bizarre looking in ANY European country.. except Cyprus.

He is not bizarre looking at all, he fits in Spain perfectly. I honestly don't know what the hell you're seeing.

[King Fingolfin]

Standard Spaniards don't look like Penelope Cruz' brother or sister and people like Rafi Nadal are atypical. Banderas is hardly exotic. Too many people see the guy on screen with "Mexican" make up. Just freaking dumb.

I completely agree. :thumb001:

[research_centre]

He doesn't look Italian either (Eduardo Cruz I mean).

He doesn't. I hate these people who pick out a slight resemblance and associate it with certain regions without looking at details.

[Lábaru]

He doesn't. I hate these people who pick out a slight resemblance and associate it with certain regions without looking at details.


xD xD xD nobody would look him twice walking the streets of Italy.

[Zephyr]

I believe her father is part gypsy, but it doesn't on show up on her. Her sister is a different story.

Penélope Cruz is the most overrated supposedly sexy brunette of all time. Not only a lousy actress, but also under my standards of beauty.

There are thousands of infinitely prettier women in Spain.

I mean, look at this picture, the harsh look...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Penelope_Cruz_Cannes_2011.jpg
And where the hell is the gap between her nose and the upper lip? Roger Federer in disguise?

Either she has some hidden talent or else any good pair of breasts and buttocks is what it takes to be an icon.

[Lábaru]

Penélope Cruz is the most overrated supposedly sexy brunette of all time.

+1

She seems to have some kind of magic that acts on the non-Iberian guys.

[research_centre]

xD xD xD nobody would look him twice walking the streets of Italy.

Well, of course.

[Savant]

Exactly, but try to tell any Iberian here that and they will chimp out, start acting like an african during the process of trying to convince you that they have no African admixture, and accuse you of being involved in some dastardly conspiracy to make everyone believe spaniards are very typically dark like that guy, and that the truth is that spaniards actually look like Danes. It's absurd, but youre right, that guy does look typically Spanish. It's just that u can get attacked by a pack of animals for saying the obvious around here.



Her brother is common. I say that is the most common type of Spanish that I saw when I was over in Spain.

[Anthropologique]

estoy de acuerdo!


16:confused:

[Anthropologique]

Exactly, but try to tell any Iberian here that and they will chimp out, start acting like an african during the process of trying to convince you that they have no African admixture, and accuse you of being involved in some dastardly conspiracy to make everyone believe spaniards are very typically dark like that guy, and that the truth is that spaniards actually look like Danes. It's absurd, but youre right, that guy does look typically Spanish. It's just that u can get attacked by a pack of animals for saying the obvious around here.


Aren't you the person who posted photos of obviously racially mixed persons and tried to pass them off as native European? :rolleyes2: Is there a credibility issue here?

[Anthropologique]

Her brother is common. I say that is the most common type of Spanish that I saw when I was over in Spain.

I disagree. You find people in Spain who manifest equivalencies to him but they are not anywhere near a majority. Let's get real.

[Lábaru]

Exactly, but try to tell me that I'm not an idiot with face of mestizo and a mestizo family.

Fixed :)

[Savant]

LOL! No, I haven't posted posted any such photos, and the situation you've described has never transpired. I'd challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. Is there a stupidity and ignorance issue here? :rolleyes2: Troll harder nig brain. LOL!


Aren't you the person who posted photos of obviously racially mixed persons and tried to pass them off as native European? :rolleyes2: Is there a credibility issue here?

[Savant]

On second thought, this might be a bit on the fair side for the average Iberian...



Her brother

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9536/celebeduardocruz240x285.jpg

[Lábaru]

LOL! No, I haven't posted posted any such photos, and the situation you've described has never transpired. I'd challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. Is there a stupidity and ignorance issue here? :rolleyes2: Troll harder nig brain. LOL!

Someone is hurt by the truth.

[Savant]

Yes, they are. They are hurt by the fact that average Spaniards look like this http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9536/celebeduardocruz240x285.jpg

(at least in the winter time. LOL!!!)


Someone is hurt by the truth.

[Anthropologique]

LOL! No, I haven't posted posted any such photos, and the situation you've described has never transpired. I'd challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. Is there a stupidity and ignorance issue here? :rolleyes2: Troll harder nig brain. LOL!

You might want to check your past posts and comments. We know what you are all about and truth isn't part of it little man.:rolleyes:

p.s. go ask Sabastianus Rex (Apricity member) what he thinks of your concocting non-truths about certain European ethnicities. You are one flawed dude.

[Anthropologique]

Yes, they are. They are hurt by the fact that average Spaniards look like this http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9536/celebeduardocruz240x285.jpg

(at least in the winter time. LOL!!!)

So what substances are you abusing today? Only the weak-minded pay attention to your childish ramblings.

[Black Sun Dimension]

In some pics she looks spanish and in others she looks middle eastern. The spanish ive met dont look like her.

[Savant]

I'm quite familiar w my past posts, and the horse shit fiction you described never transpired. I challenged you to prodUce such posts, and you have failed to do so. Therefore, you will now, as I have ordered you, go find these anomalous posts of mine you claim exist. Failure to do so will be an admission that you are a factually bankrupt, lying bitch. And "we all", that you attempt to speak for, consists of no one except your lonely troop of Afro Iberian trolls which are the laughing stock of this web site. So, put up or shut up nig brain...


You might want to check your past posts and comments. We know what you are all about and truth isn't part of it little man.:rolleyes:

p.s. go ask Sabastianus Rex (Apricity member) what he thinks of your concocting non-truths about certain European ethnicities. You are one flawed dude.

[Lábaru]

Savant, why you hate your Indian blood? why you hate your own family? nosense... you're pretty pathetic.

[Anthropologique]

I'm quite familiar w my past posts, and the horse shit fiction you described never transpired. I challenged you to prodUce such posts, and you have failed to do so. Therefore, you will now, as I have ordered you, go find these anomalous posts of mine you claim exist. Failure to do so will be an admission that you are a factually bankrupt, lying bitch. And "we all", that you attempt to speak for, consists of no one except your lonely troop of Afro Iberian trolls which are the laughing stock of this web site. So, put up or shut up nig brain...

Please search the Portuguese People thread. Your puerile lies are there for everyone to see.

You are just another self-hating (probably mixed race) merry-andrew who gains some sort of perverted pleasure by spreading absurd racial lies about any number of European ethnicities. I suggest you find a proper occupation in keeping with your odd talents, such as collecting gorilla feces in your local zoo. Now, kindly scamper off to the playground and join your other mentally deficient seven year old friends. Your done merry-andrew.:cool:

[Anthropologique]

Savant, why you hate your Indian blood? why you hate your own family? nosense... you're pretty pathetic.


He obviously has serious issues.

[Damião de Góis]

On second thought, this might be a bit on the fair side for the average Iberian...

lol...

[AR89]

Penelope's cruz brother look Spanish, if you think he doesn't go to Spain. Also he could fit in any italian region.

[Savant]

Yes, I've the "Portuguese People" thread, and I have made no post such that you described.

If I am "mixed race", then this fact certainly eluded the genetics lab who said my DNA is "100% European", so I don't know what is to "self hate" about that. In any case, the fact that Iberians are darker than other europeans is in no way indicative hate of any kind.

Of course, it's not just me, but several people who have made the same assertions that I have, that the aforementioned phenotypes are common in Spain, which they are. You've admitted that you're a dishonest whiny bitch, in your failure to produce ANY of the posts of mine which you said exist, and no matter how much you whine, cry, and stomp your feet, it wont make Spaniards any lighter. LOL!


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bFvnKKINDHs/To-Ui4By_bI/AAAAAAAAJjA/ep_u9M2gtTM/s1600/Crying%2BBaby%2BNatural%2BHigh%2Bfor%2BSome%2BMoms .jpg

[Anthropologique]

Yes, I've the "Portuguese People" thread, and I have made no post such that you described.

If I am "mixed race", then this fact certainly eluded the genetics lab who said my DNA is "100% European", so I don't know what is to "self hate" about that. In any case, the fact that Iberians are darker than other europeans is in no way indicative hate of any kind.

Of course, it's not just me, but several people who have made the same assertions that I have, that the aforementioned phenotypes are common in Spain, which they are. You've admitted that you're a dishonest whiny bitch, in your failure to produce ANY of the posts of mine which you said exist, and no matter how much you whine, cry, and stomp your feet, it wont make Spaniards any lighter. LOL!

Read it again merry-andrew. Your pathetic lies only have an impact on the simple minded.

[Ushtari]

I would

[Savant]

And what "lies" would those be? It appears most people who have been to Spain, but are not Iberians agree with me... The truth hurts, I know... But hey, don't let those pesky little facts get in the way of you and your afro-Iberian troll brigade's fantasies :lol:


Read it again merry-andrew. Your pathetic lies only have an impact on he simple minded.

[Anthropologique]

And what "lies" would those be? It appears most people who have been to Spain, but are not Iberians agree with me... The truth hurts, I know... But hey, don't let those pesky little facts get in the way of you and your afro-Iberian troll brigade's fantasies :lol:

Stop engaging in fabrication, it only adds to your extreme lack of credibility. You are much too far gone to recognize the truth. Reality clearly escapes you.:rolleyes:

Go to post #1226 on the "Portuguese People" thread where another member answers some of your nonsense. Below are the exact words you wrote with respect to pictures of obviously mixed race / mestizos / mulattos that were apparently posted as native Portuguese:

"Yep, that's pretty typical Iberian stock. Matches what one would expect given the "diverse" genetic make-up.":D

Back to playground merry-andrew.

[Savant]

LOL! As if the opinion of some delusional internet troll somehow affects anyone's "credibility" on a message board.

Again, you've failed to support your fictional claims about me yet again, and you speak of lacking credibility :lol:

And yes, Iberians do have African admixture, and have more non Euro admixture of any European group, so I don't know why anyone finds it shocking... Just a defensive insecurity complex of course... Of course you'll note that it's not common to see Basques for example that look as swarthy as many other Spaniards... In any case, your fictional bullshitting is confirmed yet again. Have fun in your fantasy world where Iberians look like vikings LOL!! Sorry to have interupted your fantasy... :pound:


Stop engaging in fabrication, it only adds to your extreme lack of credibility. You are much too far gone to recognize the truth. Reality clearly escapes you.:rolleyes:

Go to post #1226 on the "Portuguese People" thread where another member answers some of your nonsense. Below are the exact words you wrote with respect to pictures of obviously mixed race / mestizos / mulattos that were apparently posted as native Portuguese:

"Yep, that's pretty typical Iberian stock. Matches what one would expect given the "diverse" genetic make-up.":D

Back to playground merry-andrew.

[Anthropologique]

LOL! As if the opinion of some delusional internet troll somehow affects anyone's "credibility" on a message board.

Again, you've failed to support your fictional claims about me yet again, and you speak of lacking credibility :lol:

And yes, Iberians do have African admixture, and have more non Euro admixture of any European group, so I don't know why anyone finds it shocking... Just a defensive insecurity complex of course... Of course you'll note that it's not common to see Basques for example that look as swarthy as many other Spaniards... In any case, your fictional bullshitting is confirmed yet again. Have fun in your fantasy world where Iberians look like vikings LOL!! Sorry to have interupted your fantasy... :pound:

You have no credibility. Digest your comments on the images of people that were obviously mixed-race. The words you wrote are as clear as day.

Apparently you haven't read the latest autosomal DNA research. Iberians average between 86 and 91% Euro (in line with French, Swiss and Northern Italians), with over 50% Western European, North European and North Atlantic. These figures are higher than a good number of other European countries. Actually, the non-European admixture averages are very modest with about 2% West Asian 3-6% North African and ~2% South-west Asian (ME).

Reality sucks doesn't it, merry-andrew? :cool:

[Savant]

LOL @ "credibilty" to internet forum trolls who have an agenda to validate their fantasy world where iberians are vikings... LMAO! I'm not the one who needs "credibility" because science is on my side, it's you who's lacking in that department.

Iberians have more non Euro admixture than any other group of Europeans. You can whine, cry, and stomp your feet all you like, but it wont change the facts. And sorry, French, Swiss, and Northern Italians are NOT 14% non Euro on average, time to come back to reality... Iberians have significant North African and Sephardic admixure, throw a tantrum if you like, but it wont change anything.

New York Times: "DNA study shows 20 percent of Iberian population has Jewish ancestry"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/europe/04iht-gene.4.18411385.html

Yep, just like French and Swiss people... Have fun in fantasy land. LOL!


You have no credibility. Digest your comments on the images of people that were obviously mixed-race. The words you wrote are as clear as day.

Apparently you haven't read the latest autosomal DNA research. Iberians average between 86 and 91% Euro (in line with French, Swiss and Northern Italians), with over 50% Western European, North European and North Atlantic. These figures are higher than a good number of other European countries. Actually, the non-European admixture averages are very modest with about 2% West Asian 3-6% North African and ~2% South-west Asian (ME).

Reality sucks doesn't it, merry-andrew.:cool:

[Anthropologique]

LOL @ "credibilty" to internet forum trolls who have an agenda to validate their fantasy world where iberians are vikings... LMAO! I'm not the one who needs "credibility" because science is on my side, it's you who's lacking in that department.

Iberians have more non Euro admixture than any other group of Europeans. You can whine, cry, and stomp your feet all you like, but it wont change the facts. And sorry, French, Swiss, and Northern Italians are NOT 14% non Euro on average, time to come back to reality... Iberians have significant North African and Sephardic admixure, throw a tantrum if you like, but it wont change anything.

You are obviously ignoring many things, Mr. Selectivity. Check the latest Eurogenes, Baher, McDonald and Dedecad scores.

Your agenda is going nowhere...

[Savant]

LOL! I like the way you ignored the study I posted. It's okay, I'm sure your warm fuzzy fantasy land is quite comfortable. Good luck with that :lol:


You are obviously ignoring many things, Mr. Selectivity. Check the latest Eurogenes, Baher, McDonald and Dedecad scores.

Your agenda is going nowhere...

[Anthropologique]

My, my, my, reality hardly forms part of your vocabulary. Lying, hatred distortion and exaggeration drains much energy. I'm sure you are in dire need of a recharge.

[Savant]

Well in the absence of any actual facts to support your argument, I guess you could just try ad hominem personal attacks instead. Don't worry, I"m sure no one notices.... LOL!!!


My, my, my, reality hardly forms part of your vocabulary. Lying, hatred distortion and exaggeration drains much energy. I'm sure you are in dire need of a recharge.

[Anthropologique]

Just admit you are wrong, apologize to the forum and move on. Get healthy dude.

[Savant]

Haha! Quite a powerful retort: "you are wrong".... :pound:

Yeah, I guess in the absense of actual facts, you'll just have to keep throwing personal insults and hope no one notices that you have failed to substantiate your argument with any actual facts, unlike me... Don't worry, it's not REALLY REALLY obvious or anything... LOL!!!


Just admit you are wrong, apologize to the forum and move on. Get healthy dude.

[Damião de Góis]

New York Times: "DNA study shows 20 percent of Iberian population has Jewish ancestry"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/europe/04iht-gene.4.18411385.html

Yep, just like French and Swiss people... Have fun in fantasy land. LOL!

Well, the study you posted says this:


The genetic study, based on an analysis of Y chromosomes, was conducted by a team of biologists led by Mark Jobling of the University of Leicester in England and Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University in Barcelona.

Now i wonder what Y-DNA they considered to be jewish... was it J1 or J2 ? Iberia is not the place that has the most J1 or J2 by any means:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Savant]

No, they are very specific subclades of J1, J2, and others which are are associated with Jewish populations, of course this is to ignore all of the North African DNA in Iberia. Of course this shouldn't shock anyone, given the many centuries of Arabic occupation which Iberia was under.

Note, I'm not saying that Iberians are all non Europeans. I'm just saying that Iberians are, on average, darker than other European groups, and this shouldn't shock anyone given the admixture in the Iberian genome, and very many Iberians seem to be in denial about this, and attack others out of insecurity for simply citing these facts....


Well, the study you posted says this:



Now i wonder what Y-DNA they considered to be jewish... was it J1 or J2 ? Iberia is not the place that has the most J1 or J2 by any means:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Sikeliot]

But J1 and J2 together don't even add up to 20% so how could 20% of Iberian y-dna be Jewish??

[Savant]

I guess you missed this, but it's not just J1 and J2, there are specific subclades of not JUST j1 and j2, but many other HGs which are associated with Jewish and/or Moorish populations.


But J1 and J2 together don't even add up to 20% so how could 20% of Iberian y-dna be Jewish??

[Sikeliot]

Jewish-specific genes would be Levantine would they not? Iberians do not have a significant autosomal Levantine genetic component.

[Savant]

No, they would not. European Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, not with Levantines. Of course, you're ignoring all of the North African admixture too. In addition to J1 and J2, very many clades of E are associated with North African and Jewish populations. Additionally, there are clades of R1a and R1b which are associated with Jewish populations. But oh well, it's not like anyone here is interested in the actual facts...


Jewish-specific genes would be Levantine would they not? Iberians do not have a significant autosomal Levantine genetic component.

[Damião de Góis]

No, they would not. European Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, not with Levantines. Of course, you're ignoring all of the North African admixture too.

I've never seen any plot where jews cluster with southern europeans. Fell free to post one. All plots i've seen look more or less like this:

http://oi51.tinypic.com/28tgylt.jpg

North Africans are far from Iberians too, genetically.

[Savant]

Certainly, the most complete study ever done on European Jewish DNA:

Background

This study aims to establish the likely origin of EEJ (Eastern European Jews) by genetic distance analysis of autosomal markers and haplogroups on the X and Y chromosomes and mtDNA.
Results

According to the autosomal polymorphisms the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin, and EEJ are closer to Italians in particular and to Europeans in general than to the other Jewish populations. The similarity of EEJ to Italians and Europeans is also supported by the X chromosomal haplogroups. In contrast according to the Y-chromosomal haplogroups EEJ are closest to the non-Jewish populations of the Eastern Mediterranean. MtDNA shows a mixed pattern, but overall EEJ are more distant from most populations and hold a marginal rather than a central position. The autosomal genetic distance matrix has a very high correlation (0.789) with geography, whereas the X-chromosomal, Y-chromosomal and mtDNA matrices have a lower correlation (0.540, 0.395 and 0.641 respectively).
Conclusions

The close genetic resemblance to Italians accords with the historical presumption that Ashkenazi Jews started their migrations across Europe in Italy and with historical evidence that conversion to Judaism was common in ancient Rome. The reasons for the discrepancy between the biparental markers and the uniparental markers are discussed.

http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57


This shows how Jews are actually LEAST correlated with Southern Euros in terms of yDNA, and are more correlated in every other measure (mtDNA, autosomal)

In any case, Jews are genetically just Southern Europeans. It shouldn't shock anyone that Iberians cluster with them. Also given the huge numbers of Sephardic Jews which converted to Chritianity and became regular Christian Spaniards, no one should be surprised by this.

[Damião de Góis]

In any case, Jews are genetically just Southern Europeans. It shouldn't shock anyone that Iberians cluster with them. Also given the huge numbers of Sephardic Jews which converted to Chritianity and became regular Christian Spaniards, no one should be surprised by this.

No they aren't and no they don't cluster with Iberians. That says nowhere on the link you showed and in no plot i've seen there were jews clustering with Iberians. I'm afraid genetics isn't on your side on this.

[Matritensis]

She has a terrible voice.Not my type.

[Savant]

You apparently didn't read the link at all. It says that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans (Iberians are southern Europeans) in general, and with Italians in particular. Perhaps you're having some difficulty reading English.


No they aren't and no they don't cluster with Iberians. That says nowhere on the link you showed and in no plot i've seen there were jews clustering with Iberians. I'm afraid genetics isn't on your side on this.

[Savant]

Here's another very well known, often cited study, which shows how Southern and Northern European populations cluster seperately. It also shows that Jews cluster with (you guessed it) Southern Europeans ( just like Iberians, who are Southern Europeans).

"European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups."

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

But hey, no need to let these pesky little facts get in the way of your fantasy world. LOL!!

[Damião de Góis]

Iberians aren't cited in that link, and like i said they don't cluster with jews on any plot i've seen. Southern europeans don't form one block. Just because Jews cluster close to eastern mediterranean populations doesn't mean they are close to Iberians just because both are southern europeans. I'm afraid genetics crushes any "fantasy world".

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/West_Central_Eurasia.png

Are you a jew yourself?

[Savant]

Yes, Iberians ARE cited in that study, you apparently did not read it, and yes they DO cluster with Jews, and yes Southern Europeans DO cluster with each other, distinctive from Northern Europeans, which is all in the study, which you obviously didn't read:

Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

Sorry to ruin your fantasy world, but hey, no reason to let the actual facts get in the way of a good fantasy, right? LOL!


Iberians aren't cited in that link, and like i said they don't cluster with jews on any plot i've seen. Southern europeans don't form one block. Just because Jews cluster close to eastern mediterranean populations doesn't mean they are close to Iberians just because both are southern europeans. I'm afraid genetics crushes any "fantasy world".

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/West_Central_Eurasia.png

Are you a jew yourself?

[Anthropologique]

To the delusional mega-genius who claims Iberians average the highest extra-European scores genetically at ~ 14% (so he claims):

Recent extra-Euro autosomal averages for some European countries other than Spain and Portugal:

1) Southern Italians (including Sicilians) = ~ 49%

2) Greece = ~ 41%

3) Romania = ~ 33%

4) Balkan region = ~ 28%

5) North Italians = ~ 28%

6) France = ~ 13 %



Sources: Eurogenes and Dodecad.

Savant, time to admit the error of your ways and apologize to the forum for your hateful, misleading behavior.

[Savant]

And of course everyone will kindly note that I'm the only one actually citing specific data and studies, which prove my assertions. Wonder why that is? LOL!

[Savant]

Yes, Iberians ARE cited in that study, you apparently did not read it, and yes they DO cluster with Jews, and yes Southern Europeans DO cluster with each other, distinctive from Northern Europeans, which is all in the study, which you obviously didn't read:

Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

Sorry to ruin your fantasy world, but hey, no reason to let the actual facts get in the way of a good fantasy, right? :pound:

[Matritensis]

She was quite cute though when she was young,like in this 1988 Mecano video.Now she looks like the typical Hollywood type,hair and all...boring.

5Va7j2E3s1w

[Savant]

Of course it's interesting to note that Basques (and many Northern Italians) do not cluster with other Southern Europeans like Jews, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc. do.

[antonio]

Of course it's interesting to note that Basques (and many Northern Italians) do not cluster with other Southern Europeans like Jews, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc. do.

Just Basques? Neither Protobasques, neither Celtics, neither Visigoths, neither Suebians, neither Bretons, neither Normands, neither Germans,etc...the fucking evidence is that blonde Spaniards or blue-eyed Spaniards amounts are around 20 per cent of total. Taking into account they're expressions of recesive genes, you should be making a better guess on Spanish racials. :coffee:

Ps. Just an ilustrative sample of recessive genes from supossedly Hollywood-like types of Spaniards. Antonio Banderas and his daughter:

http://www.hola.com/imagenes//cine/200906158870/stella/carmen/personalidad/0-11-479/11479-z.jpg

[Savant]

LOL! Well I think they probably consider "protobasques" as simply Basques in terms of genetics studies. In any case, I am not making any "guesses". I have data from population genetics studies, so I don't need to make any guesses. If you don't like the facts, your issue is with the geneticsts, not with me. :cool:


Just Basques? Neither Protobasques, neither Celtics, neither Visigoths, neither Suebians, neither Bretons, neither Normands, neither Germans,etc...the fucking evidence is that blonde Spaniards or blue-eyed Spaniards amounts are around 20 per cent of total. Taking into account they're expressions of recesive genes, you should be making a better guess on Spanish racials. :coffee:

[P-Chan]

There are more or less 2 thousands threads on Penelope Cruz!

Why is she so interesting?

In my opinion she's just a common gracile med.

[Laubach]

Just Basques? Neither Protobasques, neither Celtics, neither Visigoths, neither Suebians, neither Bretons, neither Normands, neither Germans,etc...the fucking evidence is that blonde Spaniards or blue-eyed Spaniards amounts are around 20 per cent of total. Taking into account they're expressions of recesive genes, you should be making a better guess on Spanish racials. :coffee:

Ps. Just an ilustrative sample of recessive genes from supossedly Hollywood-like types of Spaniards. Antonio Banderas and his daughter:

http://www.hola.com/imagenes//cine/200906158870/stella/carmen/personalidad/0-11-479/11479-z.jpg

I do not want to get into this whole discussion, because my opinion has been expressed. But the example of the daughter of Antonio Banderas not think it is more correct, because his wife, Melanie Griffith is blond with blue eyes.

[Savant]

Ugh, those pesky little facts again...


I do not want to get into this whole discussion, because my opinion has been expressed. But the example of the daughter of Antonio Banderas not think it is more correct, because his wife, Melanie Griffith is blond with blue eyes.

[antonio]

If you don't like the facts, your issue is with the geneticsts, not with me. :cool:

That's not a pure genetical matter, but also a statistical one (population size and margin of error). So if I were you I would trust more in my decades of evidences about people around me than in debatable studies. Anycase considering Spain as a whole in terms of serious analisis about it population is a gross fault on its own.



I do not want to get into this whole discussion, because my opinion has been expressed. But the example of the daughter of Antonio Banderas not think it is more correct, because his wife, Melanie Griffith is blond with blue eyes.


You should refresh your knowledge on Mendelian genetics because it's pretty obvious that if Banderas married a Congolese one, his recessive Nordism would not be expressed in his descendence but miserabely spoiled in the admixture. But the fact is that even one of the Hwood style Latino-looking Spaniards has more in common with NorthernEurope than many would be able to acknowledge :coffee:

[Savant]

Yes, it is a purely genetic matter. Data in genetic studies are hard, quantitiatve data, not speculation. Data was taken from Spaniards all over Spain, not just one so regional variance is accounted for. I don't think that I or anyone else is saying that ALL Spaniards have certain genetic features, but that overall, 85-90% of Iberians cluster with Southern Euros, except for Basques, who more frequently cluster with Northern Euros. These are the facts which have been found consistently in study after study.

You seem like a fairly reasonable guy, maybe you can tell me why so many Spaniards take such an objection to this. It's not like it's made up, they are facts which have been verified in study after study, so it's not like anyone is trying to "slander" Spaniards, it's just reality. Why are Spaniards so defensive and insecure about the fact that they cluster with other Southern Europeans? Why would anyone be surprised about this? And what's wrong with it? Spaniards ARE Southern Europeans, why is it somehow controversial that they cluster with other Southern Europeans? Why is it that simply noting these facts is somehow viewed as an "attack"?



That's not a pure genetical matter, but also a statistical one (population size and margin of error). So if I were you I would trust more in my decades of evidences about people around me than in debatable studies. Anycase considering Spain as a whole in terms of serious analisis about it population is a gross fault on its own.



You should refresh your knowledge on Mendelian genetics because it's pretty obvious that if Banderas married a Congolese one, his recessive Nordism would not be expressed in his descendence but miserabely spoiled in the admixture. But the fact is that even one of the Hwood style Latino-looking Spaniards has more in common with NorthernEurope than many would be able to acknowledge :coffee:

[Lábaru]

Antonio, do not discuss with savant, is only an Indian mestizo with an inferiority complex against us, not even from Europe.

Savant is a subhuman and typical idiot non-white and wannabe European.

[Savant]

Actually, I'm a fair skinned, blue eyed 100% Anglo, with 100% European DNA (as you can see here http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1917&page=707), which makes me more European than the vast majority of Spaniards. But keep fantasizing, it's not as if you let facts get in the way of your fantasies anyway.


Antonio, do not discuss with savant, is only an Indian mestizo with an inferiority complex against us, not even from Europe.

Savant is a subhuman and typical idiot non-white and wannabe European.

[Laubach]

You should refresh your knowledge on Mendelian genetics because it's pretty obvious that if Banderas married a Congolese one, his recessive Nordism would not be expressed in his descendence but miserabely spoiled in the admixture. But the fact is that even one of the Hwood style Latino-looking Spaniards has more in common with NorthernEurope than many would be able to acknowledge :coffee:

Once again, your example is not appropriate. Of course, if he married an African, the result would be another and also know about genetics and most importantly, I've been to spain many times and know how the Spaniards are. But when told that your example was not appropriate, because Banderas is married to a blonde with blue eyes Woman, if he had married a woman with brown eyes, may not have the recessive gene passed to his daughter.

this is my point. I do not need Hollywood stereotype for how you are, because when i visiting your country many times I know. Just think you could use a better example :thumb001:

[Lábaru]

Actually, I'm a fair skinned, blue eyed 100% Anglo, with 100% European DNA (as you can see here http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1917&page=707), which makes me more European than the vast majority of Spaniards. But keep fantasizing, it's not as if you let facts get in the way of your fantasies anyway.

you are a mongrel Anglo+Indian who dyes his hair and your family is more Indian than you and you're ashamed of them, you're pathetic, you deleted the photos of your indian family because you have a big inferiority complex, your actions define you.

And now continues insulting the true Europeans.

[Savant]

LOL! I've never posted any pics of my family, and any time I've dyed my hair I've dyed it BLACK- darker than my natural color. I'm 100% anglo, with fair skin, blue eyes, 100% European DNA, and zero indian features. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your fantasies... :pound:


you are a mongrel Anglo+Indian who dyes his hair and your family is more Indian than you and you're ashamed of them, you're pathetic, you deleted the photos of your indian family because you have a big inferiority complex, your actions define you.

And now continues insulting the true Europeans.

[Sikeliot]

There is not a single genetic chart you could find that will have Jews clustering near Iberians.

[Savant]

Yes, there is and I've already posted two studies in which that's the case. Do you want me to post them again, for a 4th time? I'll be happy to do so.


There is not a single genetic chart you could find that will have Jews clustering near Iberians.

[Sikeliot]

That study only gave Northern European and Southern European as clustering options, obviously Jews will go toward Southern Europe. Doesn't mean they are close to ALL Southern Europeans.

[Savant]

No, BOTH studies have Jews clustering with Southern Europeans. Jews, when compared to many other groups (Southern Europeans, Northern Europeans, Levantines, North Africans, etc.) STILL CLUSTER with Southern Europeans, which is clearly shown in the studies. European Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, period.


That study only gave Northern European and Southern European as clustering options, obviously Jews will go toward Southern Europe. Doesn't mean they are close to ALL Southern Europeans.

[antonio]

OK, men, let's concede miss the last word at least for now on this everlasting debate. Anycase the most evident markers of Nordicism (blue/green eyes and blonde/light-brown hair) counts more at Spain than the 10-15% you're talking about.

[Damião de Góis]

Yes, Iberians ARE cited in that study, you apparently did not read it, and yes they DO cluster with Jews, and yes Southern Europeans DO cluster with each other, distinctive from Northern Europeans, which is all in the study, which you obviously didn't read:

Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

Sorry to ruin your fantasy world, but hey, no reason to let the actual facts get in the way of a good fantasy, right? LOL!

I was obviously talking about the other study you posted about jews. The next one posted and which is the you are quoting here is from 2006. We have seen a lot of genetic maps after that.


Of course it's interesting to note that Basques (and many Northern Italians) do not cluster with other Southern Europeans like Jews, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc. do.

lol, you are totally clueless when it comes to genetics. Since when Northern italians don't cluster with southern europeans?

I challenge you to show me a genetic map that shows jews clustering with iberians and that shows north italians not clustering with other southern europeans.


Actually, I'm a fair skinned, blue eyed 100% Anglo, with 100% European DNA (as you can see here http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1917&page=707), which makes me more European than the vast majority of Spaniards. But keep fantasizing, it's not as if you let facts get in the way of your fantasies anyway.

wow you are a real viking :lol:

[Savant]

It doesn't matter if you "have seen a lot of genetic maps since then", the data still remains.

Yes, Northern Italians cluster with Northern Europeans far more frequently than other groups of Southern Europeans, which should be no surprise since it was settled by the Lombards.

I have already posted very welll known, frequently cited studies which show Jews clustering with Southern Europeans, feel free to review them.

Clueless about genetics? Well, unlike anyone else here, I've actually taken bioinformatics courses in which I've had to derive, sequence, and model genetic data, but that has nothing to do with the FACTS that I've cited in the studies I've posted. But hey, I guess if you can't find any facts to support your assertion, you might as well stoop to personal insults.

A real viking? Nah, I'm an Anglo.


I was obviously talking about the other study you posted about jews. The next one posted and which is the you are quoting here is from 2006. We have seen a lot of genetic maps after that.



lol, you are totally clueless when it comes to genetics. Since when Northern italians don't cluster with southern europeans?

I challenge you to show me a genetic map that shows jews clustering with iberians and that shows north italians not clustering with other southern europeans.



wow you are a real viking :lol:

[Savant]

Autosomal clustering of European Jews, closest to Southern Europeans, and Italians in particular:

http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57/figure/F1

Whine and cry all you like, wont change the facts.

[Korbis]

Have you even seen any basque EVER? Most of them don´t look different from other iberians... if everything some of them look like cavemen : big ass bushy eyebrows, big dinaric noses, dark hair and black eyes on average, short and stocky. If you ever met one you´d possibly think he is a grotesque looking italian or frenchman.

Basque women are widely regarded as the fugliest in all the peninsula and europe as a whole, as they tend to share similar traits.


I couldn´t care less about Cruz. Screw her lame acting skills, stupid accent and beaner attitude.

[Savant]

Hey, I never said anything about who is or is not more attractive. In fact, I think many Iberian women are quite beautiful. Of course this is completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about, which is genetic data.


Have you even seen any basque EVER? Most of them don´t look different from other iberians... if everything some of them look like cavemen : big ass bushy eyebrows, big dinaric noses, dark hair and black eyes on average, short and stocky. If you ever met one you´d possibly think he is a grotesque looking italian or frenchman.

Basque women are widely regarded as the fugliest in all the peninsula and europe as a whole, as they tend to share similar traits.

[Damião de Góis]

It doesn't matter if you "have seen a lot of genetic maps since then", the data still remains.

Yes, Northern Italians cluster with Northern Europeans far more frequently than other groups of Southern Europeans, which should be no surprise since it was settled by the Lombards.

No they don't:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

In this map about autosomal DNA it shows clearly where iberians, north italians and jews are.


I have already posted very welll known, frequently cited studies which show Jews clustering with Southern Europeans, feel free to review them.

I didn't see anything, that's way i'm still waiting to see a genetic map that shows that.


Clueless about genetics? Well, unlike anyone else here, I've actually taken bioinformatics courses in which I've had to derive and sequence genetic data but that has nothing to do with the FACTS that I've cited in the studies I've posted. But hey, I guess if you can't find any facts to support your assertion, you might as well stoop to personal insults.

Well yes, if you think northern italians cluster with northern europeans and that jews cluster with iberians, that makes you clueless about genetics.


A real viking? Nah, I'm an Anglo.

Whatever, i was expecting to see someone who would stand out in Iberia.

[Savant]

Yes, they do.

I don't give a shit about some graphic on a screen, anyone can create one of those. I want to see the actual DATA from a PUBLISHED STUDY. Not some picture.

The "genetic map" ( :lol: ) is in the actual STUDY which I cited, feel free to take a look. I also linked to a plot of autosomal data which shows Jews clustering with Southern Euros, most closely with italians... Of course, this map corresponds to data in an actual published study, unlike yours.

And no, the fact that I'm aware that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, and that Northern Italians more frequently cluster with Northern Euros than other Southern European groups simply makes me informed.


No they don't:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

In this map about autosomal DNA it shows clearly where iberians, north italians and jews are.



I didn't see anything, that's way i'm still waiting to see a genetic map that shows that.



Well yes, if you think northern italians cluster with northern europeans and that jews cluster with iberians, that makes you clueless about genetics.



Whatever, i was expecting to see someone who would stand out in Iberia.

[Savant]

Again:

Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups.


Don't whine and cry to me if you don't like it, these are the facts. If you don't like them, your issue is with the geneticists, not with me. I didn't author these studies, I just understand the data in them.

[Sikeliot]

If they cluster with Italians, why are you saying they cluster with Iberians? It'd be like saying someone clusters with Poles when really they cluster with Russians just because they are both European.

[Damião de Góis]

Yes, they do.

I don't give a shit about some graphic on a screen, anyone can create one of those. I want to see the actual DATA from a PUBLISHED STUDY. Not some picture.

The "genetic map" ( :lol: ) is in the actual STUDY which I cited, feel free to take a look. I also linked to a plot of autosomal data which shows Jews clustering with Southern Euros, most closely with italians... Of course, this map corresponds to data in an actual published study, unlike yours.

The problem is that ALL genetic maps look the same, those published or those made 23andme or whatever. Yours doesn't even show the number of samples or where they are from:

http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57/figure/F1

Also, how is Ethiopian Jews clustering close to italians relevant to you saying Iberians cluster with jews? You have proven nothing regarding that and it's impossible to do so. Iberians cluster far from jews i'm afraid.


And no, the fact that I'm aware that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, and that Northern Italians more frequently cluster with Northern Euros than other Southern European groups simply makes me informed.

Jews do cluster close to cypriots and other east mediterraneans. They cluster far from Iberians though. North Italians cluster next to Iberians, south of the French. North europeans cluster north of the french.

[Savant]

Ah yes, the Italian data: "The English and Irish cluster with other Northern and Eastern Europeans such as Germans and Poles, while some Basque and Italian individuals also clustered with Northern Europeans. "

"South Italian samples clustered with South east and south central European samples, and Northern groups with West Europe."

http://vetinari.sitesled.com/meso.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+History+and+Geography+of+Human+Genes&hl=en&ei=nXFFTqDvL47UgQfeqvjEBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=southern%20italy&f=false

[Savant]

LOL Really? Because Italians cluster within the Southern European cluster, just like Iberians, and Jews.

Jews cluster within the Southern European cluster, MOST CLOSELY to Italians, but in the same general cluster as Iberians (Southern European). Of course this is not to mention all of the well documented Jewish DNA in Iberian populations. Like I said- kick, scream, and yell at me all you like, it wont change the facts- Jews, Iberians, Italians, Greeks are all in the same basic genetic cluster: Southern European.


If they cluster with Italians, why are you saying they cluster with Iberians? It'd be like saying someone clusters with Poles when really they cluster with Russians just because they are both European.

[Savant]

No, there is no problem, except for the fact that you don't like the facts.

Mine, unlike yours, actually come from published, widely cited and reputable studies, and all of the info on source data is stated within them, unlike yours, which are just pictures on a screen, which show no supporting data, and cite no study.

You clearly have no idea how to interpret genetic data, because the study says nothing about Etheopian Jews clustering with Italians. In fact is says the opposite, that Etheopian Jews cluster nowhere near European Jews, who do cluster with Italians.

And of course, as we both know I've cited two very highly referenced works which demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans (Iberians of course being Southern Europeans).


The problem is that ALL genetic maps look the same, those published or those made 23andme or whatever. Yours doesn't even show the number of samples or where they are from:

http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57/figure/F1

Also, how is Ethiopian Jews clustering close to italians relevant to you saying Iberians cluster with jews? You have proven nothing regarding that and it's impossible to do so. Iberians cluster far from jews i'm afraid.



Jews do cluster close to cypriots and other east mediterraneans. They cluster far from Iberians though. North Italians cluster next to Iberians, south of the French. North europeans cluster north of the french.

[Savant]

Gene Test Shows Spain’s Jewish and Muslim Mix - Twenty percent of the population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic Jewish ancestry and 11 percent have DNA reflecting Moorish ancestors, the geneticists have found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/science/05genes.html

Let me guess, all a part of the big conspiracy to make Iberians look bad? :D


Seriously, why is this such a big deal to you guys? Why do you guys go ape shit, and turn backflips in denial regarding these very well documented facts? I don't understand why it makes you guys have such hostility and insecurity? It's not like acknowledging these well known facts will make everyone somehow think of you as non european. I really don't understand what the big deal is. It only makes you seem very insecure when you are in very obvious denial and react so hatefully to them.

These are simply hard, scientific facts. I don't think this somehow makes Iberians "non European" and I doubt it does to anyone else either, except for maybe some Nordicist extremist or something. Why is it that you guys are all so defensive and insecure about it? It really just makes you look silly and insecure to deny well documented, widely known genetic facts...

[research_centre]

“What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.” - Oscar Wilde

[SilverKnight]

mostly Med.

[Savant]

Can anyone tell me why these very well known, established facts cause these people to chimp out so hard? Why it causes such defensiveness and insecurity in them? For example it's also widely known that Finns have a bit of mongoloid admixutre, and noone tries to deny this. Yet you don't see Fins flipping out about this left and right in denial, nor do you see lots of people trying to say that Finns are non European. I really don't get what the big deal is.... :confused:

[Damião de Góis]

You clearly have no idea how to interpret genetic data, because the study says nothing about Etheopian Jews clustering with Italians. In fact is says the opposite, that Etheopian Jews cluster nowhere near European Jews, who do cluster with Italians.


That's really stupid... misreading labels doesn't mean i can't interpret genetic data. This little mistake also has no relevance to the point i was making, which is that "Jews" being them Ethiopian or European or whatever, don't cluster close to Iberians.

Anyway, my map is from a peer reviewed blogger. If you are into genetics you will know who that blogger is.

[Savant]

LOL, no it should have been highly apparent what the data meant. And no, your "point" is incorrect. European Jews very much cluster, as do Iberians, in the Southern European cluster.

LMAO! No, I don't follow "bloggers", and of course that's not a credible source, especially compared to published studies conducted by geneticists. Also, many of these "bloggers" are notorious for pushing completely erroneous garbage, which is ridiculed by the actual scientific community. That "Deinkes" guy is one of the most notorious BS artists, for example.


That's really stupid... misreading labels doesn't mean i can't interpret genetic data. This little mistake also has no relevance to the point i was making, which is that "Jews" being them Ethiopian or European or whatever, don't cluster close to Iberians.

Anyway, my map is from a peer reviewd blogger. If you are into genetics you will know who that blogger is.

[Savant]

Can someone address this please?


Can anyone tell me why these very well known, established facts cause these people to chimp out so hard? Why it causes such defensiveness and insecurity in them? For example it's also widely known that Finns have a bit of mongoloid admixutre, and noone tries to deny this. Yet you don't see Fins flipping out about this left and right in denial, nor do you see lots of people trying to say that Finns are non European. I really don't get what the big deal is.... :confused:

[Damião de Góis]

LMAO! No, I don't follow "bloggers", and of course that's not a credible source, especially compared to published studies conducted by geneticists. Also, many of these "bloggers" are notorious for pushing completely erroneous garbage, which is ridiculed by the actual scientific community. That "Deinkes" guy is one of the most notorious BS artists, for example.

Do you consider the 23andme maps to be garbage as well?

[Lábaru]

Savant Subrace: Anglo Norman lol where is your Indian ancestry? ashamed of them? Ignore him, for God sake.

[Savant]

Which 23andme maps? If you can show me an example of 23andme maps I'll be happy to give you my honest opinion. Can you pls address my question above, by the way?


Do you consider the 23andme maps to be garbage as well?

[Savant]

Well I'd be happy to tell you about some Indian ancestry if I had any to tell about... Trust me, I'd get far more benefits this way: cheaper tuition, free health care, more money for education... If I had any Indian ancestry, I'd be taking it to the bank... :D I'm just a boring Anglo, however...


Savant Subrace: Anglo Norman lol where is your Indian ancestry? ashamed of them? Ignore him, for God sake.

[WilliamWallace]

Yes, sure, Italians are levantines and jews.

While Iberians are Celts.

Blonde, tall like Vikings.


What's funny is that I have visited Spain 4 times and I didn't meet people with northern look, but probably the people I met where all gypsies.
Because if a Spaniard is ugly and dark, must be a gypsy

[Sikeliot]

Why do people assume Celtic = blonde, blue eyes and Northern European looking?

[WilliamWallace]

Why do people assume Celtic = blonde, blue eyes and Northern European looking?

why do you assume to know how really look Europeans, Africans and middle eastern if you have never been here?

[Korbis]

Yes, sure, Italians are levantines and jews.

While Iberians are Celts.

Blonde, tall like Vikings.


What's funny is that I have visited Spain 4 times and I didn't meet people with northern look, but probably the people I met where all gypsies.
Because if a Spaniard is ugly and dark, must be a gypsy


The Celts were actually rather short and sometimes dark compared to the germanic people and belong to a completely different stock. Where do you think the "Black" irish and med looking british people come from ? here´s a clue: it has little to do with some stupid sunken armada myth.

[Hess]

There are far some more exotic Europeans than Penelope Cruz, I really don't get the Spanish Inquisition against her (I feel so clever right now :D)

[Damião de Góis]

Which 23andme maps? If you can show me an example of 23andme maps I'll be happy to give you my honest opinion. Can you pls address my question above, by the way?

Didn't you say you were 100% european? If you don't know which maps i'm talking about then which genetic test did you take?

[Korbis]

There are far some more exotic Europeans than Penelope Cruz, I really don't get the Spanish Inquisition against her (I feel so clever right now :D)


It doesn´t help that she doesn´t have any qualms in playing roles of mexican/colombian/cuban or whichever beaner nationality she is offered to instead of an european based role. Not like she could play convincingly an "american" role with that atrocious accent anyway, unlike her husband...

[Sikeliot]

There are far some more exotic Europeans than Penelope Cruz, I really don't get the Spanish Inquisition against her (I feel so clever right now :D)

Because she has a stupid pan-Hispanic mentality and by playing Mexican roles on TV and in movies, it furthers ignorance amongst those who expect to go to Spain and see Mexican-looking people.. because to them, Spain and Latin America are the same.

[Savant]

Yes, I am 100% European. Are you talking about the PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL 23andme data? Yes, I'm familiar with those, but those apply to one person. I thought you were talking about some larger data set which 23andme published that I hadn't seen. 23andme doesn't do gene sequencing btw, they do SNP genotyping, although I'm sure you probably don't know the difference. Btw, 23andme is not the only company to offer personal genetic data, and are a relatively new company ;)


Didn't you say you were 100% european? If you don't know which maps i'm talking about then which genetic test did you take?

[Savant]

I guess I can assume that no one is willing to address this question?


Can anyone tell me why these very well known, established facts cause these people to chimp out so hard? Why it causes such defensiveness and insecurity in them? For example it's also widely known that Finns have a bit of mongoloid admixutre, and noone tries to deny this. Yet you don't see Fins flipping out about this left and right in denial, nor do you see lots of people trying to say that Finns are non European. I really don't get what the big deal is.... :confused:

[Hess]

Because she has a stupid pan-Hispanic mentality and by playing Mexican roles on TV and in movies, it furthers ignorance amongst those who expect to go to Spain and see Mexican-looking people.. because to them, Spain and Latin America are the same.

Pan-Hispanic mentality? I think you may be reading a bit too much into her.

She's just an actor that accepts the roles that she is given, nothing more and nothing less.

[WilliamWallace]

Because she has a stupid pan-Hispanic mentality and by playing Mexican roles on TV and in movies, it furthers ignorance amongst those who expect to go to Spain and see Mexican-looking people.. because to them, Spain and Latin America are the same.

Penelope Cruz is a pretty woman and a good actress, she's an avarage gracile mediterranean.

We are not speaking of Rossy De Palma, who can be considered as a freak in Spain!
Anyone who visit Spain can see millions of dark haired, short, gracile med girls as Penelope Cruz!

[Logan]

Why do people assume Celtic = blonde, blue eyes and Northern European looking?


Aye. Never made it myself. It was more a cultural name.:coffee:

http://www.worldology.com/Europe/images/classical_europe_celt.jpg

[Zephyr]

Why do people assume Celtic = blonde, blue eyes and Northern European looking?

It's because in the past people didn't have information...

http://www.medpovrly.cz/en/ImgCont/historie01_en.jpg

Now that they have too much info, they don't care about it. But they will still argue for fun.

They prefer gamez, torrents, facebook, forums, trolling, pr0n, lulz.

[Sikeliot]

Penelope Cruz is a pretty woman and a good actress, she's an avarage gracile mediterranean.

We are not speaking of Rossy De Palma, who can be considered as a freak in Spain!
Anyone who visit Spain can see millions of dark haired, short, gracile med girls as Penelope Cruz!

Maybe true but I still think there is an Atlantid component to many Spanish people and that the most common phenotype is Atlanto-Med.

[Anthropologique]

OK, men, let's concede miss the last word at least for now on this everlasting debate. Anycase the most evident markers of Nordicism (blue/green eyes and blonde/light-brown hair) counts more at Spain than the 10-15% you're talking about.

Light eyes run 30-35% in Spain from what I've seen. Portugal is pretty close behind. This does not include hazel, normally treated as dark. By comparison, Brittany, a region I'm quite familiar with, has roughly 50% light eyes.

[Damião de Góis]

Yes, I am 100% European. Are you talking about the PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL 23andme data? Yes, I'm familiar with those, but those apply to one person. I thought you were talking about some larger data set which 23andme published that I hadn't seen. 23andme doesn't do gene sequencing btw, they do SNP genotyping, although I'm sure you probably don't know the difference. Btw, 23andme is not the only company to offer personal genetic data, and are a relatively new company ;)

It's individual, but they offer some maps to show where their clients fall on genetic maps. Here is a screenshot of mine:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/vrg87q.jpg

So i was wondering out of curiosity if you considered 23andme to be garbage as well. Because their maps show the same things as the maps i was showing.

In any case and coming back to the bloggers which you considered to be garbage, it's funny that Doron Behar thinks otherwise:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html

Speaking of Behar and still about jews clustering with iberians, i'm sure you will find this study interesting :thumb001:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/full/nature09103.html#supplementary-information

[Lábaru]

Yes, I am 100% European.

xD xD xD my ass :)

The Spanish should not respond to your inferiority complex of a dirty blood (at least you think on this way about your blood), accept your mixing and relax.

[Savant]

No, I would generally not dismiss data published by 23andme to be garbage like I would some random blogger, because they employ many legitimate scientists. However, I haven't seen any actual studies that 23andme has published. That's not to say they don't exist, but I haven't seen them. That's not to say that ALL bloggers are incredulous garbage, but very many of them are, and they have no legitimacy in the scientific world. It's silly to compare the findings of actual geneticists in a published study against some picture posted by an amateur blogger, absurd even.

This screenshot of yours, what does it represent? Autosomal, mt, y data? It doesn't say what data is being represented.

Yes, data from the Behar studies was actually used in the Jewish study which I posted earlier, which you'd know if you actually bothered to read.


It's individual, but they offer some maps to show where their clients fall on genetic maps. Here is a screenshot of mine:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/vrg87q.jpg

So i was wondering out of curiosity if you considered 23andme to be garbage as well. Because their maps show the same things as the maps i was showing.

In any case and coming back to the bloggers which you considered to be garbage, it's funny that Doron Behar thinks otherwise:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html

Speaking of Behar and still about jews clustering with iberians, i'm sure you will find this study interesting :thumb001:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/full/nature09103.html#supplementary-information

[Savant]

Oh, I'd certainly accept my dirt blood if I had any to accept. I'd get far more social bennefits and funding that way... Unfortunately I'm just a boring old 100% euro Anglo, we don't get any special perks...


xD xD xD my ass :)

The Spanish should not respond to your inferiority complex of a dirty blood (at least you think on this way about your blood), accept your mixing and relax.

[StonyArabia]

The Drama of the Curse of the Moors, continues to unfold:coffee:

[Damião de Góis]

It's silly to compare the findings of actual geneticists in a published study against some picture posted by an amateur blogger, absurd even.

Apparently it isn't since Doron Behar doesn't think so. Which makes that image pretty reliable. I'll certainly take his word before yours.


This screenshot of yours, what does it represent? Autosomal, mt, y data? It doesn't say what data is being represented.

Autosomal. I'm R1b1b2a1a2, the people around me are other iberians with different haplogroups.


Yes, data from the Behar studies was actually used in the Jewish study which I posted earlier, which you'd know if you actually bothered to read.

It is? I was looking for genetic maps on your links. If that is the same study you posted before, then i can see why you didn't post any maps.


The Drama of the Curse of the Moors, continues to unfold:coffee:

Indeed.. but shouldn't you be posting about Iraqis and Bedouins instead, which are supposed to be your people? Oh wait, you're in the wrong forum for that... ;)

[Sikeliot]

Is anyone going to say anything productive or give a classification? If all that is going to occur is arguing and usual trolling by one specific member, the thread should be closed.

[Anthropologique]

It's individual, but they offer some maps to show where their clients fall on genetic maps. Here is a screenshot of mine:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/vrg87q.jpg

So i was wondering out of curiosity if you considered 23andme to be garbage as well. Because their maps show the same things as the maps i was showing.

In any case and coming back to the bloggers which you considered to be garbage, it's funny that Doron Behar thinks otherwise:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html

Speaking of Behar and still about jews clustering with iberians, i'm sure you will find this study interesting :thumb001:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/full/nature09103.html#supplementary-information


Don't bother. He'll probably come back with some asinine comment like "Nature is not a reputable scientific journal." :rolleyes:

[Savant]

Well, many scientists have spoken about the myths of amateur internet bloggers, and of course no actual university or scientific academy considers an internet blogger as a legitimate source of data. It's pretty silly to make that assertion.

Okay, I just wondered what data was being plotted since it didn't say in the screen shot.

All the "maps" ( :lol: ) are contained in each specific study. Feel free to take a look at them. It's redundant to repost over and over, and pretty amateur to post a "map" without corresponding data from which it's derived, or the study which it was published in. In any case, no one in the scientific community disagrees with the very well documented fact that both Jews and Iberians cluster within the Southern European cluster, which is of course verified by the studies which I posted. Sorry if that upsets you but don't get mad at me, I didn't publish the studies, I'm just aware of the facts.


Apparently it isn't since Doron Behar doesn't think so. Which makes that image pretty reliable. I'll certainly take his word before yours.



Autosomal. I'm R1b1b2a1a2, the people around me are other iberians with different haplogroups.



It is? I was looking for genetic maps on your links. If that is the same study you posted before, then i can see why you didn't post any maps.



Indeed.. but shouldn't you be posting about Iraqis and Bedouins instead, which are supposed to be your people? Oh wait, you're in the wrong forum for that... ;)

[Savant]

Well whether or not it's not a reputable scientific journal would be irrelevant due to the fact that it doesn't refute my assertion. LOL!


Don't bother. He'll probably come back with some asinine comment like "Nature is not a reputable scientific journal." :rolleyes:

[Savant]

LOL! Stating scientific facts, supported by citing published genetic studies= "trolling". Interesting definition. In any case it's very clear by now that "trolling"= citing facts which you don't like...



Is anyone going to say anything productive or give a classification? If all that is going to occur is arguing and usual trolling by one specific member, the thread should be closed.

[Anthropologique]

The Celts were actually rather short and sometimes dark compared to the germanic people and belong to a completely different stock. Where do you think the "Black" irish and med looking british people come from ? here´s a clue: it has little to do with some stupid sunken armada myth.

Exactly. My father's side hails from Brittany - heavily Celtic - and the province has many dark-haired and dark-eyed people.

[Savant]

A new study finds that 1 in 10 of Spanish men has haplotypes (genetic patterns) on the y chromosome identical with that of North Africans (i.e. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians). And this study suggests that 1 in 5 have haplotypes identical with Jewish males."

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/spanish-arab-and-jewish-genetic.html


Of course, you'll notice that you never see any such study with findings like these published about England or Denmark. I'm sure that's all part of the big conspiracy thought... :rolleyes:

[Anthropologique]

xD xD xD my ass :)

The Spanish should not respond to your inferiority complex of a dirty blood (at least you think on this way about your blood), accept your mixing and relax.

The truth is that NO ONE comes out 100% European, when you conduct proper autosomal DNA analysis.

[Anthropologique]

Didn't you say you were 100% european? If you don't know which maps i'm talking about then which genetic test did you take?

Hmm, maybe he just made up a bunch of s**t.:eek: Self-haters sometimes do things like that.

[Savant]

Wow. Well I guess you guys generally aren't very interested in facts anyhow, they would certainly spoil your little fantasy world. It's funny to see you of all people trying to present yourself forth as an arbiter of "proper autosomal DNA analysis" (as if you had the slightest clue of what that consists of, or were capable of the mathematics underlying it). Oh well, sorry I wont interrupt your fantasy world with any more of those pesky little facts anymore. Carry on.


The truth is that NO ONE comes out 100% European, when you conduct proper autosomal DNA analysis.

[Damião de Góis]

Well, many scientists have spoken about the myths of amateur internet bloggers, and of course no actual university or scientific academy considers an internet blogger as a legitimate source of data. It's pretty silly to make that assertion.

You should send Behar an email telling how silly he is then. Because he said this to Nature.com:


"They are not amateurs. They are far from being amateurs," says Doron Behar, a population geneticist at Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa, Israel, who studies human history. "I cannot stress enough the level of appreciation I have for their efforts."

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html

Like i said all plots show the same things, including the ones from Dienekes or Eurogenes. And none of them shows Iberians and Jews clustering together. This also doesn't happen on 23andme where i'm sharing with some jewish people, and they aren't exactly close to me either.


All the "maps" ( :lol: ) are contained in each specific study. Feel free to take a look at them. It's redundant to repost over and over, and pretty amateur to post a "map" without corresponding data from which it's derived, or the study which it was published in. In any case, no one in the scientific community disagrees with the very well documented fact that both Jews and Iberians cluster within the Southern European cluster, which is of course verified by the studies which I posted. Sorry if that upsets you but don't get mad at me, I didn't publish the studies, I'm just aware of the facts.

I'm not worried about the "southern european cluster". I just wanted you to prove that jews cluster with Iberians besides saying they're both on the "southern european cluster". That's pretty vague.

The reality is that they don't cluster together:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg


Genome-wide structure of Jews (Behar et al. 2010) (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/abs/nature09103.html)

[Savant]

Yes, since 23andme is the only company which offers personal genetic testing. Good thinking Sherlock... :thumb001:


Hmm, maybe he just made up a bunch of s**t up.:eek: Self-haters sometimes do things like that.

[Savant]

Wow, you want me to show you AGAIN?! Really?!

Okay, but this is the LAST TIME, so get out your English dictionary and read it this time, since you obviously didn't read them the last 5 times I posted them.

Background

This study aims to establish the likely origin of EEJ (European Jews) by genetic distance analysis of autosomal markers and haplogroups on the X and Y chromosomes and mtDNA.
Results

According to the autosomal polymorphisms the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin, and EEJ are closer to Italians in particular and to Europeans in general than to the other Jewish populations. The similarity of EEJ to Italians and Europeans is also supported by the X chromosomal haplogroups. In contrast according to the Y-chromosomal haplogroups EEJ are closest to the non-Jewish populations of the Eastern Mediterranean. MtDNA shows a mixed pattern, but overall EEJ are more distant from most populations and hold a marginal rather than a central position. The autosomal genetic distance matrix has a very high correlation (0.789) with geography, whereas the X-chromosomal, Y-chromosomal and mtDNA matrices have a lower correlation (0.540, 0.395 and 0.641 respectively).
Conclusions

The close genetic resemblance to Italians accords with the historical presumption that Ashkenazi Jews started their migrations across Europe in Italy and with historical evidence that conversion to Judaism was common in ancient Rome. The reasons for the discrepancy between the biparental markers and the uniparental markers are discussed.

Department of Haematology and Genetic Pathology, School of Medicine, Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia

Department of Human Genetics, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel

Current Address: Blood Bank, Sheba Medical Center, Ramat-Gan 52621, Israel

http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57

European Population Substructure: Clustering of Northern and Southern Populations

Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups. Based on this work, we have developed a core set of informative SNP markers that can control for this partition in European population structure in a variety of clinical and genetic studies.

Overall, the analysis of sequence variation allowed the authors to distinguish individuals with northern European ancestry (Swedish, English, Irish, German, and Ukrainian) from individuals with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek). Interestingly, Ashkenazi Jewish individuals tend to group together with individuals from southern European countries.


Italy (84 of 86 individuals), Spain (66 of 74), Portugal (3 of 3), and Sephardic Jews (3 of 3) had majority contributions from the “southern” population group as defined by this population structure analysis.

Interestingly, those participants who indicated Jewish ancestry in the New York City participant set had a majority of “southern” cluster membership.

To further clarify the eastern European and Jewish relationships, we examined a final set of participants for which clear information on both Jewish ancestry and eastern European ancestry was available. As shown in Figure 3C, each of 38 participants with four grandparents of Ashkenazi Jewish European ancestry showed >60% “southern” group membership (mean = 0.86 ± 0.08 [standard deviation] “southern”).

The finding in the current study that individuals of Ashkenazi Jewish descent are predominantly “southern” European further suggests the later migration of this ethnic group from the Mediterranean region. Regardless of the European country of origin, each of those participants with four grandparents of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage showed this predominant “southern” cluster membership.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

If it is not PERFECTLY CLEAR to you that both of these studies say that 1) European Jews cluster with Southern Europeans and that 2) Iberians also cluster with Southern Europeans then you simply can not read English. Again, these are both highly cited, published works which most any population genecists will be familiar with. If you, after reading this, don't understand perfectly well that 1) there is a distinctive Southern European genetic cluster, 2) European Jews fall within the Southern European cluster, and 3) Iberians also fall within the Southern European cluster, then you do not need to worry about genetics, you need to work on your English.


Y I just wanted you to prove that jews cluster with Iberians besides saying they're both on the "southern european cluster". That's pretty vague.

The reality is that they don't cluster together:

[Lábaru]

The truth is that NO ONE comes out 100% European, when you conduct proper autosomal DNA analysis.

Hehe Well, the truth is that Savant and other people with inferiority complexes should not be a problem, ignore him, stop feed him is the better way for make him to feel alone and mestizo.

If we set up a discussion for each mestizo who hate us on the Internet, this will be a mess.

[Anthropologique]

Hehe Well, the truth is that Savant and other people with inferiority complexes should not be a problem, ignore him, stop feed him is the better way for make him to feel alone and mestizo.

If we set up a discussion for each mestizo who hate us on the Internet, this will be a mess.

Too right. Why do they even bother? They are so terribly obvious.:laugh2:

[Savant]

Yes, let's not let facts get in the way of our fanciful delusious. That would be no fun at all... It's much easier to make believe that I'm a "mestizo" (despite having 100% euro ancestry), and ignore the multiple published genetic studies and data which have been cited than to acknowledge the actual facts. :lol: :pound:


Hehe Well, the truth is that Savant and other people with inferiority complexes should not be a problem, ignore him, stop feed him is the better way for make him to feel alone and mestizo.

If we set up a discussion for each mestizo who hate us on the Internet, this will be a mess.

[Mordid]

Spaniards = moor darkest European face.

[Anthropologique]

The problem is that ALL genetic maps look the same, those published or those made 23andme or whatever. Yours doesn't even show the number of samples or where they are from:

http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57/figure/F1

Also, how is Ethiopian Jews clustering close to italians relevant to you saying Iberians cluster with jews? You have proven nothing regarding that and it's impossible to do so. Iberians cluster far from jews i'm afraid.



Jews do cluster close to cypriots and other east mediterraneans. They cluster far from Iberians though. North Italians cluster next to Iberians, south of the French. North europeans cluster north of the french.

There are very substantial differences between East Med Euros and Western Europeans (includes Iberians). This is an accepted fact. I have never seen a first-class piece of research showing Jews clustering with Iberians or any other Western European ethnic group. Savant, as usual, is posting nonsense.

[Anthropologique]

Spaniards = moor darkest European face.

LOL!

[Savant]

Actually, Savant posted two highly well known, frequently cited studies which highlight the fact that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, which is a fact which is well known throughout the scientific community. Another fact which is well known throughout the scientific community: primary genetic disnticntions are found between Northern and Southern European groups, and yes, I posted a very widely cited and well known study which verifies that as well. But hey, let's not let these pesky facts get in the way of your fantasy world! :thumbs up


There are very substantial differences between East Med Euros and Western Europeans (includes Iberians). This is an accepted fact. I have never seen a first-class piece of research showing Jews clustering with Iberians or any other Western European ethnic group. Savant, as usual, is posting nonsense.

[Anthropologique]

Hehe Well, the truth is that Savant and other people with inferiority complexes should not be a problem, ignore him, stop feed him is the better way for make him to feel alone and mestizo.

If we set up a discussion for each mestizo who hate us on the Internet, this will be a mess.

And they make such incredible fools of themselves. Just look at how one of them has been humiliated on this thread. These misfits are so uber-delusional they probably believe their own lies. Nasty stuff.

[Star Valley]

What is all the fuss about Penelope Cruz? People act as if we do not have human variation.

[heyaitsme]

Is it just me or is Penelope Cruz really beautiful? haha
I thought this thread was supposed to be about classifying her not arguing over bullsh**

[Korbis]

Actually, Savant posted two highly well known, frequently cited studies which highlight the fact that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, which is a fact which is well known throughout the scientific community. Another fact which is well known throughout the scientific community: primary genetic disnticntions are found between Northern and Southern European groups, and yes, I posted a very widely cited and well known study which verifies that as well. But hey, let's not let these pesky facts get in the way of your fantasy world! :thumbs up


Why is this such a big deal for you, anyway? You´re really acting like one of those annoying non white hatemongers with a hidden agenda and insisting over and over on the same, so I´m not surprised of the iberians and other members acusations, and neither should you.

[Piparskeggr]

What's a Penelope Cruz and why should I care???

[Savant]

Whoever said that it was "such a big deal"? Citing scientific facts and genetic data is "acting like a non white hate monger"? LOL! If you say so... I'm not "insisting" on anything except for factual data. Many members of this website know me personally, and as such if I were non white, it would be very well known. Very interesting conspiracy theory and all, but like most of the others around here it's complete bullshit. But yes, I am surprised at their accusations. It's odd to me that people would be compelled to try make personal attacks and slander a person for simply citing verified, credible scientific data in a discussion.

The fact that a few people would have such a hateful, insecure, and defensive reaction to data which is widely known and accepted in the scientific community is the only mystery here... Just because I'm informed and know the actual facts about this topic does not mean that it's a "big deal" to me. It's a "big deal" to the people slandering and making personal attacks against a person for merely citing the information. Who really has the "agenda"? Those who are aware of and cite scientific facts, or the people who go into a psychopathic tantrum in response to them and make personal attacks at the person who cited them?

I honestly just with I knew WHY flipped out about it so much... Like I said, these are scientific facts, and I don't see what the big deal is...


Why is this such a big deal for you, anyway? You´re really acting like one of those annoying non white hatemongers with a hidden agenda and insisting over and over on the same, so I´m not surprised of the iberians and other members acusations, and neither should you.

[Hess]

AFAIK, Savant was only arguing that about minor non Euro admixture. I really don't know why the Spaniards are getting so upset= Finns have it, Slavs have it, Southern Italians, Greeks - why should the Iberians be an exception?

[Ushtari]

AFAIK, Savant was only arguing that about minor non Euro admixture. I really don't know why the Spaniards are getting so upset= Finns have it, Slavs have it, Southern Italians, Greeks - why should the Iberians be an exception?
because they are cristianos viejos

[Pallantides]

Spaniards don't have any more non-European or non-caucasoid admixture than Swedes do, Spaniards have minor African admixture while Swedes have minor Asian/Uralic admixture.
Eurasia7 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadExjVnpKbHFEeGVZOEZPOXBxWnA2W nc#gid=0)

[Anthropologique]

AFAIK, Savant was only arguing that about minor non Euro admixture. I really don't know why the Spaniards are getting so upset= Finns have it, Slavs have it, Southern Italians, Greeks - why should the Iberians be an exception?

When it comes to Iberians this merry-andrew regularly attempts to show that they have the most extra-European admixture in Europe. Such thinking is absolutely laughable given that Iberians total some of the highest autosomal Euro percentages of any European ethnicity - with the highest Western Euro / North Atlantic and Northern Euro scores of any Southern European ethnic group. Of course, he's not interested in such facts. Instead, he runs about claiming that Jews cluster with Iberians and calls them Afro-Iberians and other crap. Childish, to say the least.

Then he sites as "proof" some of the most criticized studies around like Adams et. al (2009?). A "production" so flawed that the study's researchers labeled obviously non-semitic haplogroups as semitic and could not even get their math straight. According to their methodology, Austrians and other Western Europeans would end up with some of the highest levels of semitic around.:lol00002:

[antonio]

Why do people assume Celtic = blonde, blue eyes and Northern European looking?

Is not a gratuite assumption. If you check some population and find that no one has blonde hair or blue-green eyes it's clear that this population has nothing to do with Northern Europe. On the contrary, at my ancestors, the around 25% of fair traits tells me I had something or a lot to do with NorthernEurope, the same way with most Spaniards and just confirming historical evidences.

It's funny also how some traveled to Spain and find out nobody with that characters, what they dont tell is that what they saw where mainly waiters and janitors most of not even Spanish origin. I suppose those travelers are like the ones a friend of mine found at tourist locations who addressed his wife in English or German just because she had natural blonde hair whilst for me she has a tipical fair-Spanish look. Probably because i meet some thousand of Spaniards more than those uninformed tourists. :D

[Treffie]

Actually, Savant posted two highly well known, frequently cited studies which highlight the fact that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans,

I wish to interject at this juncture. These studies do not show this. What these studies show is that 20% of the male population of Spain has a tiny amount of Jewish DNA. They do not cluster at all with Jews. There is a big difference.

[antonio]

I wish to interject at this juncture. These studies do not show this. What these studies show is that 20% of the male population of Spain has a tiny amount of Jewish DNA. They do not cluster at all with Jews. There is a big difference.

To be fair I feel now obligued to undisclose the fact that people from some areas and with concrete surnames (like Chuetas population of Mallorca) were treated with contemption by the rest of naturals. What it is more impressive just by checking old pics is some of those familiar groups didnt look at all ugly, degenerated or poor people...so if they were not discriminated on material or fisical basis, it's clear they were discriminated for what their ancestors do or think....or believe. :coffee:

The picture from 30's who made things clear to me on this subject:

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20110712elpepuint_8/XXLCO/Ies/Familia_Chueta.jpg

[Savant]

BINGO!!! Thank you sir!!! Someone gets it. I even raised fins as example earlier. No one, even Finns deny that they have a touch of mongoloid on average. Yet, you never see anyone but maybe some occasional neo nazi racial purist kook claiming that this makes them non European. You also don't see Finns flippiing out in pedantic insecurity fits about it. So, what do Iberians? Why is citing scientific data "trolling"? I've asked for this to be explained numerous times, yet they wont address it.


AFAIK, Savant was only arguing that about minor non Euro admixture. I really don't know why the Spaniards are getting so upset= Finns have it, Slavs have it, Southern Italians, Greeks - why should the Iberians be an exception?

[Pallantides]

Spaniards amount of non-European admixture is closer to Swedes than Finns, but nobody ever discuss the non-Euro ancestry of Swedes?

[Savant]

Actually the study shows that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, not that "Iberians cluster with Jews", if we want to be highly specific. But given the nature of this debate that's probably a good idea. There's a general "Southern European Cluster". Iberians cluster within it, Jews also cluster within it. It's a a cluster which both groups fall within, that is to say that they are a menber of the same basic genetic group, and have more genetically in common with each other than with members of other groups. It is not to say that Jews and Iberians cluster with the same plane coordinates in the same, identical values as Iberians do. There is a broader "Souther Euro cluster" which Italians, Greeks, etc. all fall into. Both Jew and Iberians cluster within this group, in autosomal DNA analysis. Hope that's more clear.


I wish to interject at this juncture. These studies do not show this. What these studies show is that 20% of the male population of Spain has a tiny amount of Jewish DNA. They do not cluster at all with Jews. There is a big difference.

[Savant]

I personally haven't seen anything which substantiates that, but I'd be interested to. Feel free to PM it to me if not otherwise preoccupied.


Spaniards amount of non-European admixture is closer to Swedes than Finns, but nobody ever discuss the non-Euro ancestry of Swedes?

[Pallantides]

I already posted some results in this thread on page 20.

[Damião de Góis]

Actually the study shows that Jews cluster with Southern Europeans, not that "Iberians cluster with Jews", if we want to be highly specific. But given the nature of this debate that's probably a good idea. There's a general "Southern European Cluster". Iberians cluster within it, Jews also cluster within it. It's a a cluster which both groups fall within, that is to say that they are a menber of the same basic genetic group, and have more genetically in common with each other than with members of other groups. It is not to say that Jews and Iberians cluster with the same plane coordinates in the same, identical values as Iberians do. There is a broader "Souther Euro cluster" which Italians, Greeks, etc. all fall into. Both Jew and Iberians cluster within this group, in autosomal DNA analysis. Hope that's more clear.

lol, so now they don't cluster together anymore? :lol:
I also don't get why you are so interesting in this, even making stuff up along the way...

[Savant]

Yes, they do cluster together within the southern european population subcluster. No, they do not consistently have the same exact values/coordinates within that cluster. I realize that maybe English isn't your first language so I'm trying to not be harsh. But the data in both the biologydirect study and the PLOSgenetics study are both fairly clear and concise. This would probably be a lot easier if you just tried to read them...


lol, so now they don't cluster together anymore? :lol:
I also don't get why you are so interesting in this, even making stuff up along the way...

[Damião de Góis]

Yes, they do cluster together within the southern european population subcluster. No, they do not consistently have the same exact values/coordinates within that cluster. I realize that maybe English isn't your first language so I'm trying to not be harsh. But the data in both the biologydirect study and the PLOSgenetics study are both fairly clear and concise. This would probably be a lot easier if you just tried to read them...

I don't think this is a language problem. I'm still waiting for you to prove this:



In any case, Jews are genetically just Southern Europeans. It shouldn't shock anyone that Iberians cluster with them. Also given the huge numbers of Sephardic Jews which converted to Chritianity and became regular Christian Spaniards, no one should be surprised by this.

Do you know what "clustering" means in this context? Portuguese and spanish people cluster together. So i really would like to see you demonstrate that jews cluster with iberians in that same way.

Saying that they do because they are on the same "southern european subcluster" is as valid as saying jews cluster with the english because they are on the same "european cluster".

[Matritensis]

Wow,if Penélope knew the passion and storms that she inspires in some weird websites...:laugh:

[Savant]

Language is obviously an issue, if not I can't think of what would be.

If language wasn't an issue, I don't see how you wouldn't understand this concept which I have described to death and beaten into the ground, and which the geneticists who published the studies which I cited, posted, and quoted also said. If language was not an issue I don't understand how you could possibly still not grasp these concepts, of course there's always the very real possibility that you have no desire to understand, and are simply trolling. In any case, if you are trolling and don't actually want to learn anything, maybe someone else who does want to learn can read this and benefit from it.

In any case, I'll give this one last shot, in very simplistic, basic language anyone should be able to understand. So, please don't interpret this as me demeaning or belittling you, I just don't know what else to do given your difficulty in understand the many explainations so far, and the explainations (in English) in the actual studies which I cited, quoted, and posted. Yes, I know what "clustering" means, as I've had to take raw information and apply mathematical analysis to it to then accuately assign it to a cluster, for assingments in bioninformatics classes I have taken. In fact, it may well be your misunderstaning of this term where your inbility to understand lies.

"Clustering" in the context of population genetics is a term for used to describe a form of mathematical analysis which consists of a quantitative analysis of all the data, then applying mathematical methods, generally a combination of statistical analysis and data mining techniques, each piece of data according to it's quantitative values/features, which were derived from the data analysis, are placed into different "clusters" such that data with more similar values/featres are placed together in "clusters", often times such that the actual degree of similarity determines the distance, although not always. "Cluster" analysis is a widely used form of mathematical analysis which has very many widely used applications outside of the study of genomic data. Also, while it's not specifically, technically correct, many people (often amateurs) refer to different kinds of mathematical analysis of genomic data as "clustering" (such as PCA analysis), and while that's technically not correct, everyone knows what they mean and rarely corrects it, so the other forms of analysis also end up being referred to as "clustering" too.

Now, remember that I said "cluster analysis" is simply a form of mathematical analysis with many widely used applications outside of genetics/bioinformatics. It's used in machine learning, the analysis of economic data, in various medical scanning devices, chemistry, geology, many different areas of computer science, etc. Technically any time you have a body of data to which can assign some sort of qualitative or quantitative values to, you can perform a "cluster analysis" on it. So, as you can already see, this is a bit more complicated than your typical post of some picture without any description of what data is being analyzed, and what method has been used to analyze it, etc. Although someone who's had some actual education in this, can sometimes tell by looking at it. In any case, you should be able to understand by now that it's all more complicated than someone postinc some picture or "map" as people here like to call them, and thinking they understand it, or even know what they are looking at, which is often what happens here (and on other sites like this, to be completely fair).

So, since we have established that cluster analysis is a form of mathematical analysis which can be used for very many applications, most of which are non genetic, and that you can perform such an analysis on any set of data which you have values for. Also that "clustering" is just a mathematical/statistical term, not a genetic one, many people on this kind of website also have NO idea that this is the case either.

So we can take all kinds of genetic data, or economic data, or digital data, boob size data, whatever and perform a "cluster analysis" on it. So, in terms of genetic data we can take genetic data fron all different kinds of carbon life forms, and apply "cluster analysis" techniques to them, and our cluster analysis would yield different clusters of groups which share some common quantitative value or similarity with each other over other groups. This would end up showing us various clusters which turned out to be plant life, in which we'd see different kinds of tree cluster together with some distance from fruits or vegetables, who were more distant from bushes or other kinds of plant life. Then we'd look at our other cluster which turned out to be of the animal kingdom, and assuming we applied more and more depth to the analysis of that data we'd see the different groups of the animal kingdom became distinctive from each other, like reptiles, amphibians, crustiaceans, etc. and also of course the animal kingdom. Of course you'll note how all of these groups cluster within the "animal kingdom cluster", yet within that broader distinction of the "animal kingdom" to which they all belong, there yet more specific, finite clusters within the larger "animal kingdom cluster", which denotes that all members of the animal kingdom are more closely related to each other than some species of plant.

Now I've hope that by now you are understanding that 1) "clustering" is a mathematical term rather than a genetic one, and that "cluster analysis" can be applied to many different kinds of data, with many different uses and 2) okay, well I've forgot number two because I've been up for like 32-33 hours now doing fucking mathematical work similar to what I'm talking about, and arguing with people on the internet, but I'm sure that no 2 was relevant somehow. But I'm hoping that you now have a better understanding of what clustering means.

So, obviously we analyze all the data all the way down to humans, and when we get to humans, we can see that there are also different disctinctive "clusters" which have more similarity to each other than to other groups, and that these seem to be very highly correlated to geography. So we see that there is a European cluster, and this is distinctive from an African cluster. Yet, no matter what a member of either cluster will still cluster with other humans compared to other members of the "mammal cluster", and to go out one further order of magnitude, will cluster within the "mammal cluster" compared to other members of the animal kingdom, and to go get even further out, will cluster with in the "animal kingdom" cluster combared to other, non animal carbon life forms.

So, then we isolate people who cluster within this group we call the "European cluster", because this population's geographic origin is obviously the land mass we call "Europe" and because pretty much all the people we talk to that cluster within this group either live on this "Europe" land mass, or report that their ancestors are from Europe. So this cluster is called "European". Now this cluster, the "European cluster" is not a cluster because there is a landmass we call Europe and we want to associate genetic sequences with it. It is a cluster called "Europe" because the people who live here or who's ancestors came from here ALL share distinctive genetic traits in common with each other and have more genetic similarity with each other than they do wiath ALL the other humans, and other carbon life forms. So, this genetic cluster is not defined by the European land mass, but by the genetic similarity a certain group of people, or "race" shares with each other, which was simply named "Europeean" because that's the landmass we associate with them, but the name is not a reference to the land mass, it's a reference to the shared genetic traits. So, a key concept here is that the shared genetic traits are found first, then a name is selected which best describes this group.

Then obviously we come to more thoroughly analyze the data of this "European" group. And while they all share more genetic traits with each other than any other group of humans by far, there emerge two fairly distinctive "clusters", which for the kinds of reasons I've descibed above end up being called "northern" and "southern". This is about where the PLOSgenetics study I posted, quoted and cited picked up btw


So, it shouldn't surprise anyone that this group included most people from, you guessed it! Southern Europe! Why is that?? Because they share more genetic traits and features, in common with each other than they do the other group, which causes them to "cluster" dististinctively from one another if you apply a "cluster analysis" technique on the body of data.... Hooray!!! Hope we're all learning something here, this was probably long overdue, because it's getting painful to keep reading these completely ignorant comments on genetics when the person is actually trying to pretend they know what they are talking about.

Okay, so now, we'd take individual people who are from certain countries, and of course Iberians/Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, etc. etc. cluster with this this "southern european" group 85-95% of the time. There's an outlier here or there, but the population is basically what you'd expect: most genetically in common with Southern Euros. Now, within this "southern European cluster", each of these nationalities tend to (not always, but tend to) form clusters of their own, in more specific ranges, which are their own, more speific "clusters". So, for example while Greeks, might still cluster most closely with other greeks, but they will STILL ALSO CLUSTER WITHIN THE SOUTHERN EUROPEAN CLUSTER. Hence a greek CAN CLUSTER WITH GREEKS, BUT ALSO CLUSTER WITH SOUTHERN EUROPEANS. Because the "greek cluster" is within the Southern European cluster. It coule likewise be said that Greeks "cluster with Iberians", because while they do not cluster identically, they do both cluster not only within the same basic population group(European), but also the same subpopulation group (southern european). So while Greeks usually cluster with other greeks, and Iberians generally cluster with other Iberians, they both can be said to "cluster together" because they fall into the same group and sub group


It should be starting to get more clear for you now.

So, now we have European Jews. "European Jews" means, how the studies define it, are people who are Jewish and have 4 Jewish grand parents (I think, chech each study to be sure, but I think it's eather 3 or 4) and can only trace their ancestry back to Europe. So, it turns out that no matter where these Jews, they "cluster" in this Southern European population group. If we find them in Northern, or Eastern Europe, or in Southern Europe, they cluster in the "Southern European" cluster 85-90% of the time. This means that they share more genetically in common with others who clustern in this group than with anyone else. Therefore Jews cluster in the "southern" cluster, and Iberians cluster in the "southern" cluster, so we then say that "Jew cluster with Iberians", just as we say "Jews cluster with Italians", or "Iberians cluster with Italians", because they all clustern in the "southern" cluster, who lies in the "European" cluster, who all clustern in the "human cluster".

So yes, Jews DO cluster with Iberians, Italians, Greeks, etc. who ALL cluster with Southern Europeans.

If you don't understand this, you just can't read Enlgish. Period. You're welcome. I sincerely hope you are able to learn something from this.


I don't think this is a language problem. I'm still waiting for you to prove this:



Do you know what "clustering" means in this context? Portuguese and spanish people cluster together. So i really would like to see you demonstrate that jews cluster with iberians in that same way.

Saying that they do because they are on the same "southern european subcluster" is as valid as saying jews cluster with the english because they are on the same "european cluster".

[Matritensis]

End of the story,boys! We all are a big,colorful cluster.Now let's just go buy some Benetton t-shirts and stop fooling around.March!

[Treffie]

Yes, they do cluster together within the southern european population subcluster. No, they do not consistently have the same exact values/coordinates within that cluster. I realize that maybe English isn't your first language so I'm trying to not be harsh. But the data in both the biologydirect study and the PLOSgenetics study are both fairly clear and concise. This would probably be a lot easier if you just tried to read them...

If they clustered with them they'd appear on this

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

[Anthropologique]

Savant, show us who you cluster with, merry-andrew.:D

[Lábaru]

Savant, show us who you cluster with, merry-andrew.:D


http://images.wikia.com/doblaje/es/images/f/fb/ValKilmer.jpg

But obviously ugly and fat.

[Damião de Góis]

So, now we have European Jews. "European Jews" means, how the studies define it, are people who are Jewish and have 4 Jewish grand parents (I think, chech each study to be sure, but I think it's eather 3 or 4) and can only trace their ancestry back to Europe. So, it turns out that no matter where these Jews, they "cluster" in this Southern European population group. If we find them in Northern, or Eastern Europe, or in Southern Europe, they cluster in the "Southern European" cluster 85-90% of the time. This means that they share more genetically in common with others who clustern in this group than with anyone else. Therefore Jews cluster in the "southern" cluster, and Iberians cluster in the "southern" cluster, so we then say that "Jew cluster with Iberians", just as we say "Jews cluster with Italians", or "Iberians cluster with Italians", because they all clustern in the "southern" cluster, who lies in the "European" cluster, who all clustern in the "human cluster".

So yes, Jews DO cluster with Iberians, Italians, Greeks, etc. who ALL cluster with Southern Europeans.

If you don't understand this, you just can't read Enlgish. Period. You're welcome. I sincerely hope you are able to learn something from this.

You didn't have to write all that crap, no one's gonna read it. Your argument is basically that Iberians cluster with Jews because they are both in the "southern cluster", whatever that is. I took the liberty clircling both iberians and jews in several genetic maps:

http://oi42.tinypic.com/8xphk4.jpg

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2yw5u9w.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/29e20di.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/35n99qp.jpg

If this still isn't enough, or if you are gonna call those maps "garbage", here is a picture from Behar k=10 study from 2010 in which you can see how different Jews and Iberians are... which is why they don't cluster together on genetic plots.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3720/behar2010k10.png

So really, your little statement that jews cluster with iberians has no grounds besides a text saying "that they are both on the south european cluster".

And about my english, no one has ever complained about it. It's not my fault that you are here spreading bulshit that you can't prove.

[Savant]

Actually, not really. That's just a picture on a screen. It doesn't say what data is being represented, how it was collected, etc. It's just graphic on a screen without some actual information, usully in the form of a published study which gives all the details about the data, the methods, the outcomes, data sources. Etc. Unfortunately many "genetics discussions" here are this way...

So, iyou can't really look at some random picture with some shapes and colors and dots on it and say what it means or what data it represents.

Did I really just write that novel explain basic methods of genetic analysis for nothing? :(

Anyhow, I really don't have much mroe time for this right now. If you read my very clear explaination, and read the studies I'm citing, and you still don't get it, I don't know what to do for you. But I can try another time to help you underrstand.

Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups. Based on this work, we have developed a core set of informative SNP markers that can control for this partition in European population structure in a variety of clinical and genetic studies.


here it says pretty clearly, and they have some pictures and graphics acompannying that study too, since people seem to somehow think that's what is credible, the little graphic with a picture??? :confused:

Again, from same work:

Two unrelated persons in the human population have hundreds of thousands of base pair differences between them in DNA sequence. Previous studies have shown that a small proportion of these sequence differences correlate with a person's continental ancestry: broadly, Asia, Africa Oceana, America, or continental Europe. In the current study, DNA differences within a particular continental group, Europe, were examined. Overall, the analysis of sequence variation allowed the authors to distinguish individuals with northern European ancestry (Swedish, English, Irish, German, and Ukrainian) from individuals with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek). Interestingly, Ashkenazi Jewish individuals tend to group together with individuals from southern European countries. This study is important because it provides a method of taking into account these differences when searching for genetic variations that are associated with particular human traits, such as disease susceptibility, response to drug treatment, or side effects from therapy. Specifically, these methods may allow scientists to uncover disease-associated genetic variations that might be hidden unless differences related to European ancestry are considered.

There is lots more mentioned, but I'm tired and it's here if you want to read it yourself and look at the pictures, etc: http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

The next highly cited, credible, published study which I've posted numerous times, probaby 5-6 in the last day, that I've also quoted and posted, which you can find at http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57

Background

This study aims to establish the likely origin of EEJ (Eastern European Jews) by genetic distance analysis of autosomal markers and haplogroups on the X and Y chromosomes and mtDNA.
Results

According to the autosomal polymorphisms the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin, and EEJ are closer to Italians in particular and to Europeans in general than to the other Jewish populations. The similarity of EEJ to Italians and Europeans is also supported by the X chromosomal haplogroups. In contrast according to the Y-chromosomal haplogroups EEJ are closest to the non-Jewish populations of the Eastern Mediterranean. MtDNA shows a mixed pattern, but overall EEJ are more distant from most populations and hold a marginal rather than a central position. The autosomal genetic distance matrix has a very high correlation (0.789) with geography, whereas the X-chromosomal, Y-chromosomal and mtDNA matrices have a lower correlation (0.540, 0.395 and 0.641 respectively).
Conclusions

The close genetic resemblance to Italians accords with the historical presumption that Ashkenazi Jews started their migrations across Europe in Italy and with historical evidence that conversion to Judaism was common in ancient Rome. The reasons for the discrepancy between the biparental markers and the uniparental markers are discussed.
Reviewers
The autosomal genetic distances (table 1) do not show any particular resemblance between the Jewish populations. EEJ are closer to Italians in particular and to Europeans in general than to the other Jewish populations. All of the distances, apart from one, differ from zero by more than twice their standard error. A difference between two distances can be considered meaningful, if it is more than twice their largest standard error. The differences between the distance of EEJ from Italians and their distances from the other Jewish populations are meaningful according to this criterion, and the same is also true for all the Non-Jewish populations except for Greeks and Russians. In fact the distance between EEJ and Italians is the smallest distance in the matrix. A multidimensional scaling plot of the genetic distance matrix (figure 1) captures the proximity of EEJ to Italians and other European populations.

They have pictures to look at in this study too.

Iv'e writen nearly a novel explaining what this material means, and have cited several works including two, well known and frequently cited studies a total of what must have been nearly 10 times now.

If soemone still is unable to understand this, you either can't read english, are REEELY slow, or just don't want to know it. It's becoming more apparent to me that this group consists mostly of the latter. I have either posted or written everything would need to know to understand all of this. I don't understand how you could possible not get it at this point, but if you don't then maybe I'll just answer questions. If you don't want to learn something or wish for it not to be true, you'll just pretend like it doesn't make sense. If that's the case, don't waste my time please, if you actually want to learn but can not, I don't get how, but I will try.


If they clustered with them they'd appear on this

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

[Lábaru]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0kfVdwiD-TE/TEBg01xO1II/AAAAAAAAAA4/fWqGz3sVpko/s1600/cdscratchlg.jpg

[Savant]

You know what's kind of both funny and sad? I could just post pictures here instead and not even bother with the rest, and people would simple agree with me, and think they learned or understood something more times than actually expaining the information, easily. LOL!

[Savant]

Yeah, nice picture collection Alex, but lets see the pubclished study and the data. Don't get me wrong I love your little colored pciture book.

You're probably accurate in saying that no one here will read what I wrote, be cause it contains lots of facts, which many of you guys are allergic to.

No, it's not "my argument" that Jews and Iberians both cluster in the "Southern Euro" cluster, it's the "argument", or rather scientific findings of genetic researchers. The "southern cluster whatever that is"? LOL!! It means that you share more genetic traits, and share more genetically in common with than any other group. Iberians and Jews both cluster within the "southern european" cluster, meaning they share more genetic similarity with each other and other European groups than ANY OTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE ON EARTH

That's what a "cluster" is, which you'd know if your english wasn't so terrible and you could actually read what I wrote. But, ugh, more of those pesky little facts that you don't like are in there...

No I'm calling them bullshit because the "maps", do not list what actual data is being represented, and are not accompanied by any published study, or even anything describing what it is. They're just pictures, on a screen. They're shit. If you can please show me the actual published study they suppsoedly come from, by all means do so, until then they are just your little picture collection. (ppl at university think it's very funny to learn that you guys call data plots "maps") :lol:

Yes, my statement has "no grounds" besides Jews and Iberians clustering in South Euro cluster :lol: :pound: :lols:

Wow, when you realize that you've shoved your foot straight down your throad yet AGAIN you're really going to wish you'd read my post and explaination. Sorry, this is going to be embarassing, but here are the facts.

Members of the "southern Euro cluster" share MORE genetic commonality, and have MORE genetic similarity to each other, than ANY other group/cluster. THAT"S WHAT A CLUSTER IS. It means that you share more genetic traits with members of the cluster than any other group on Earth.

I'm sorry to embarass you by exposing your ignorance so hard, but that was your fault, you could have completely avoided that by simply reading what I took the time to write before running your mouth in your typically uninformed fashion.


You didn't have to write all that crap, no one's gonna read it. Your argument is basically that Iberians cluster with Jews because they are both in the "southern cluster", whatever that is. I took the liberty clircling both iberians and jews in several genetic maps:

http://oi42.tinypic.com/8xphk4.jpg

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2yw5u9w.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/29e20di.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/35n99qp.jpg

If this still isn't enough, or if you are gonna call those maps "garbage", here is a picture from Behar k=10 study from 2010 in which you can see how different Jews and Iberians are... which is why they don't cluster together on genetic plots.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3720/behar2010k10.png

So really, your little statement that jews cluster with iberians has no grounds besides a text saying "that they are both on the south european cluster".

And about my english, no one has ever complained about it. It's not my fault that you are here spreading bulshit that you can't prove.

[Anthropologique]

Here are some GROUP (not cherry-picked individual photos of exotic / atypical Iberians) pictures for Savant's (the extreme merry-andrew) racial hate albums. Notice all the "Afro-Iberian" phenotypes.:eek: :lol00002:

From left to right: The top five photos are Spaniards and the bottom five Portuguese ---

[Anthropologique]

You didn't have to write all that crap, no one's gonna read it. Your argument is basically that Iberians cluster with Jews because they are both in the "southern cluster", whatever that is. I took the liberty clircling both iberians and jews in several genetic maps:

http://oi42.tinypic.com/8xphk4.jpg

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2yw5u9w.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/29e20di.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/35n99qp.jpg

If this still isn't enough, or if you are gonna call those maps "garbage", here is a picture from Behar k=10 study from 2010 in which you can see how different Jews and Iberians are... which is why they don't cluster together on genetic plots.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3720/behar2010k10.png

So really, your little statement that jews cluster with iberians has no grounds besides a text saying "that they are both on the south european cluster".

And about my english, no one has ever complained about it. It's not my fault that you are here spreading bulshit that you can't prove.

I think the merry-andrew is in great need of a psychological intervention.

[Treffie]

Yes, my statement has "no grounds" besides Jews and Iberians clustering in South Euro cluster :lol: :pound: :lols:

Wow, when you realize that you've shoved your foot straight down your throad yet AGAIN you're really going to wish you'd read my post and explaination. Sorry, this is going to be embarassing, but here are the facts.


Unfortunately for you, you don't know what you're talking about (again). Alex has presented you with the scientific information, yet you have the gall to say that he's wrong. You obviously have your own agenda, maybe based on your own insecurities, but no-one is ever going to take you seriously :p

[Anthropologique]

"Jews cluster with Iberians". :lol00002:

[Sikeliot]

Trying to reason with him is not ever going to work so you all might just give up.. never try to reason with someone unreasonable.

[Anthropologique]

Trying to reason with him is not ever going to work so you all might just give up.. never try to reason with someone unreasonable.


Especially insecure and delusional types.

[Damião de Góis]

lol, you are still insisting with this? Why does a guy from Quebec (?) cares about this so much? Weird.

Anyway, the maps are from:

1) Eurogenes Project
2) 23andme
3) Dodecad Project
4) Behar

If you look closely they all look the same. So Behar was right when he said that Dodecad and Eurogenes were doing a good job.


No I'm calling them bullshit because the "maps", do not list what actual data is being represented, and are not accompanied by any published study, or even anything describing what it is. They're just pictures, on a screen. They're shit.

It's not my problem that you consider Behar and 23andme as "shit" just because their maps go against what you are writing on a forum.


(ppl at university think it's very funny to learn that you guys call data plots "maps") :lol:

My first language is not english. Why would people at universities care if i call data plots "maps" on an internet forum? Stop being ridiculous.


Wow, when you realize that you've shoved your foot straight down your throad yet AGAIN you're really going to wish you'd read my post and explaination. Sorry, this is going to be embarassing, but here are the facts.

Members of the "southern Euro cluster" share MORE genetic commonality, and have MORE genetic similarity to each other, than ANY other group/cluster. THAT"S WHAT A CLUSTER IS. It means that you share more genetic traits with members of the cluster than any other group on Earth.

I'm sorry to embarass you by exposing your ignorance so hard, but that was your fault, you could have completely avoided that by simply reading what I took the time to write before running your mouth in your typically uninformed fashion.

lol... so members of the southern european cluster share that much? Maybe you should look at this picture again and look at Jews and Iberians:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3720/behar2010k10.png

[Anthropologique]

Merry-andrew is a grade-A masochist.

[Pallantides]

If they clustered with them they'd appear on this

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

That map always piss me off...

freaking West Norwegians and their celtic thrall admix representing all Norwegians:D:D;)

[Jack B]

That map always piss me off...

freaking West Norwegians and their celtic thrall admix representing all Norwegians:D:D;)

Wouldn't it be pretty similar anyway? they seem close enough to their neighbours, although overlapping with Ireland more than Sweden is interesting..

[Falkata]

Even with one thousand genetic maps and studies we wouldnt be able to explain Savant´s Down syndrome.

His repetitive LOL! and LMAO! make him even more retard

[Pallantides]

Wouldn't it be pretty similar anyway? they seem close enough to their neighbours, although overlapping with Ireland more than Sweden is interesting..

I think if East Norwegians were included they would at least cluster closer to the Swedes. But this Irish/Celtic affinity is not restricted to West Norwegians of course, but they obviously have stronger pull in that direction than East Norwegians.

[Zephyr]

Merry-andrew is a grade-A masochist.

I'm sorry, but you are all being masochists too.

'Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.'

[Savant]

On the contrary I'm about the only person in this debate which does know what they're talking about, and am certainly the only one with any formal education in population genetics.

Alex has not presented me with any data, he's presented me with some graphics which do not explain any of the data which they supposedly plot, and has drawn a few circles on them which he claims correspond to jews and iberians. He has also not cited any published data or study which contain such data.

In contrast to myself, who has provided numerous, widely cited, well known published studies and articles which contain make the same assertion that I am: That Iberians, Italians, Greeks, and Jews all cluster together within the Southern European cluster.

LOL! Yes, me along with all the actual geneticists and the scientific community have an "agenda", it's all part of a big, vast sweeping conspiracy and the whole scientific establishment is in on it :lol:


Unfortunately for you, you don't know what you're talking about (again). Alex has presented you with the scientific information, yet you have the gall to say that he's wrong. You obviously have your own agenda, maybe based on your own insecurities, but no-one is ever going to take you seriously :p

[Savant]

lol, you are still insisting with this? Why does a guy from Quebec (?) cares about this so much? Weird.

Anyway, the maps are from:

1) Eurogenes Project
2) 23andme
3) Dodecad Project
4) Behar


That's great that the "maps" ( :pound: ) are from the sites. Now, go find me the actual published studies and articles which cite data presented by actual population genetics researchers. Until then these are just some computer graphics which you drew some circles on.



It's not my problem that you consider Behar and 23andme as "shit" just because their maps go against what you are writing on a forum.


No, what I consider shit is random computer graphics or "maps" which don't even include what data is supposedly represented in the plot. None of the shit you posted even says what data is represented in the "map", and none of them are accompanied by an actual published study, that's what makes them "shit" and have no credibility. Also, the fact that you drew a few circles on your little "maps" by no means give them any more credibility. It's impossible to say if their "maps" contradict what I (and the rest of the scientific community) say, because they don't even say what it's a "map" of :rofl:



My first language is not english. Why would people at universities care if i call data plots "maps" on an internet forum? Stop being ridiculous.

Yes, as we've previously established, your poor English has caused you problems in this discussion. I didn't say people at universities "care" if some uninformed amatuer calls them "maps", I said they thought it was funny.




lol... so members of the southern european cluster share that much? Maybe you should look at this picture again and look at Jews and Iberians:

Yes, members of the southern European cluster "share that much", that's what makes it a cluster!!! Being within the same cluster means that you share more with others in the cluster than with anyone else, that's what a cluster is, for the 20th time.

[Savant]

DNA study shows 20 percent of Iberian population has Jewish ancestry

"About 20 percent of the current population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic Jewish ancestry, and 11 percent bear Moorish DNA signatures, a team of geneticists reports."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/europe/04iht-gene.4.18411385.html

Look, the New York Times is in on the conspiracy too!!!

Spanish Arab and Jewish Genetic Heritage

A new study finds that 1 in 10 of Spanish men has haplotypes (genetic patterns) on the y chromosome identical with that of North Africans (i.e. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians). And this study suggests that 1 in 5 have haplotypes identical with Jewish males.

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/spanish-arab-and-jewish-genetic.html

Uh oh!!! More conspirators!!! They must have the "agenda" too... :D

DNA Reveals Spain’s Hidden History


DNA tests have proved there were mass conversions of faith in Spain over six centuries ago, and that the country now has a prevalent Jewish and Muslim mix.


http://rt.com/news/sci-tech/dna-reveals-spains-hidden-history/

Russia Today is also in on the big conpiracy, who knew?! LOL!

Of course, one of the largest studies on European autosomal DNA ever says: "Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups."

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

Wow, looks like pretty much everyone has an "agenda", and is in on this conspiracy. I don't know what this "agenda" might be, but it must be pretty serious if pretty much the whole scientific community is involved. You know, I think we should get to the bottom of this. I bet if Alex went and took his circled "maps" and went public with them, we could start getting some answers here. LOL!!!

[Ibericus]

Penelope looks mostly Atlantid-Med, with probably some gypsoid influences.

[Osweo]

Wow,if Penélope knew the passion and storms that she inspires in some weird websites...:laugh:

She does. She's been following the discussions for years, but is too shy to do more than 'lurk'. She did tell me in a rep point that she orgasms whenever Savant writes a 6+ paragraph post in her thread, however. :suomut:

[Matritensis]

Loquacity! Is that the secret to conquering her...heart,then?

[Anthropologique]

She does. She's been following the discussions for years, but is too shy to do more than 'lurk'. She did tell me in a rep point that she orgasms whenever Savant writes a 6+ paragraph post in her thread, however. :suomut:
:thumb001::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: