Where did the rumor originate that western Irish people are Basque-like?

[Sikeliot]

There is a claim I often see online that people from the western coast of Ireland are genetically somehow Basque or Spanish like, in contrast to people in Northern Ireland and along the east coast who are more British-like.

But from what genetic studies show, this could not be further from the truth. In fact, the British have more southern-shifting ancestry than the Irish do, and the differences within Ireland are not so much east to west, as much as it is that there are isolated pockets throughout the country with more or less foreign mixture, but none of them plot near Basques.

[Grace O'Malley]

There is a claim I often see online that people from the western coast of Ireland are genetically somehow Basque or Spanish like, in contrast to people in Northern Ireland and along the east coast who are more British-like.

But from what genetic studies show, this could not be further from the truth. In fact, the British have more southern-shifting ancestry than the Irish do, and the differences within Ireland are not so much east to west, as much as it is that there are isolated pockets throughout the country with more or less foreign mixture, but none of them plot near Basques.

This is what I've been saying for years. :) This has been obvious just looking at genetic plots. Populations plot with people closest genetically to them. Also Gedmatch results are fairly clear that the Irish are a Northwest European population. Just looking at things logically why would the Irish be an outlier population and be some Basque remnants? The Basques aren't even that old themselves anyway. The history of Ireland basically only has a few outside influences. Firstly Bell Beakers in the Bronze Age; British and Dutch Bell Beakers are virtually identical. The next known invasions were the Norse Vikings, then the Normans and the Scots, English and Welsh would have always had interactions and vice versa. The Scottish connection has always been known. Look at things like Dal Riada and M222. Nothing really complicated.

Regarding the Basque link I think that goes back to Oppenheimer's R1b summations in the early 2000s. He links all the Celts to the Basque because of the high R1b. He didn't then know anything about subclades nor that R1b-M269 is from the Bell Beakers and from the Bronze Age Even then autosomal dna didn't point to any close relationship at all. In fact the Irish have always been quite distant to Basques looking at European populations.

Another possible reason is the Lebor Gabála Érenn and the Milesian legend. People still can't get this Basque/Iberian link out of their head and it is still sprouted all over the place. There are still some people that have an Atlantic Facade thing. Not so much on here any more but there are still some people that won't let it go. :)

Not many people around now interested in these sort of discussions on Apricity anymore.

[Sikeliot]

If anything Iberians have Irish like ancestry rather than the reverse..

[Neon Knight]

There is also the event of the Spanish sailors from the Armada landing in Ireland. There is a mythic assumption that they settled there but most or all of them were killed.

[Imperator Biff]

From retards

[HoboJim]

I'm 2.3% Iberian which presumably originates from my grandmother's Irish side. Likely from Basque fisherman off the coasts of Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries. Or so the story goes.

Basques were/are master fisherman. They were fishing waters in around Newfoundland all the way back to the 16th century.

[Dna8]

I've always had the idea that Iberians and Brits share some genetics..

[Creoda]

I'm 2.3% Iberian which presumably originates from my grandmother's Irish side. Likely from Basque fisherman off the coasts of Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries. Or so the story goes.

Highly unlikely.

[HoboJim]

Highly unlikely.

Which part?

[Creoda]

Which part?
The part about your 2.3% 'Iberian' coming from 16th century Basque fisherman in Ireland. Makes no sense.

[HoboJim]

The part about your 2.3% 'Iberian' coming from 16th century Basque fisherman in Ireland. Makes no sense.

How so?

[Creoda]

How so?
There's no evidence of such a mass migration in history or genetics, and if you're 1/4 Irish you're implying that many Irish people are up to 9-10% Iberian.

[Daco Celtic]

It's a dirty rumor that was started by street hooligans.

[Grace O'Malley]

How so?

Most fully Irish people hardly get any Iberian. Neither me nor any of my family get it that have been tested. With updates now on Ancestry and 23andMe it is even less likely. 2.3% Iberian is on the high side (for an Irish person) so I would say getting it from an Irish grandmother is not likely. Irish get less Iberian than the English for example so it's odd that people have this sort of connection. It's very easy to dispel if people look at Irish genetic results.

Anyway people take these small amounts too literally. How many people lose these small amounts on updates. 23andMe nor Ancestry etc are looking at older ancestry anyway as they match people to modern people that they have that have long term ancestry in countries. The dna companies appear to be improving over time because the science is getting better and also they have more areas that they match people to. It's all to do with the science and their population panels.

Most Irish, for example, match the British & Irish category on 23andMe and the Ireland and Scotland on Ancestry very well. These are very Irish shifted categories and most Irish get nearly 100% now with these companies.

What's your full ancestry?

[HoboJim]

Most fully Irish people hardly get any Iberian. Neither me nor any of my family get it that have been tested. With updates now on Ancestry and 23andMe it is even less likely. 2.3% Iberian is on the high side (for an Irish person) so I would say getting it from an Irish grandmother is not likely. Irish get less Iberian than the English for example so it's odd that people have this sort of connection. It's very easy to dispel if people look at Irish genetic results.

Anyway people take these small amounts too literally. How many people lose these small amounts on updates. 23andMe nor Ancestry etc are looking at older ancestry anyway as they match people to modern people that they have that have long term ancestry in countries. The dna companies appear to be improving over time because the science is getting better and also they have more areas that they match people to. It's all to do with the science and their population panels.

Most Irish, for example, match the British & Irish category on 23andMe and the Ireland and Scotland on Ancestry very well. These are very Irish shifted categories and most Irish get nearly 100% now with these companies.

What's your full ancestry?

Interesting. I took the 23andme test in 2015 and my Iberian results haven't changed. I should mention that my grandmother is not directly from Ireland, but of Irish descent.

There has always been an awareness of a connection to Spain on her side though. There is also history of Basque fishing around Ireland which is thought to be the connection.

[HoboJim]

Perhaps it's circumstantial. Where Irish people in regions of Ireland connected to the Basque fishing trade are more prone to possessing dna from that history.

[Grace O'Malley]

Perhaps it's circumstantial. Where Irish people in regions of Ireland connected to the Basque fishing trade are more prone to possessing dna from that history.

I've explained where I think these myths come from in my earlier post. You might have other ancestries that would explain your Iberian better. I share with many fully Irish people on 23andMe and Iberian is very scare for Irish. There is really no "special" connection between these populations as anyone that looks into the genetics side of things knows now. Even historically the people that the Irish interacted with where of course British i.e. Scots, Welsh and English. The other groups they have interacted with are the Vikings and Normans. That's basically the major groups that have went to Ireland.

Even with deep ancestry Irish are an extremely Northwest European population and are connected genetically to their neighbours i.e. the British, Scandinavians and Benelux areas.

Also specifically with your 2.3% Iberian it is most likely not real if you have no known actual ancestry from Spain and Portugal. Did you get your result on Ancestry or 23andMe? Both these companies have updated their Ancestry Compositions. It would be interesting to see what your full ancestry breakdown is? It could give some clues if you posted this.

[HoboJim]

I've explained where I think these myths come from in my earlier post. You might have other ancestries that would explain your Iberian better. I share with many fully Irish people on 23andMe and Iberian is very scare for Irish. There is really no "special" connection between these populations as anyone that looks into the genetics side of things knows now. Even historically the people that the Irish interacted with where of course British i.e. Scots, Welsh and English. The other groups they have interacted with are the Vikings and Normans. That's basically the major groups that have went to Ireland.

Even with deep ancestry Irish are an extremely Northwest European population and are connected genetically to their neighbours i.e. the British, Scandinavians and Benelux areas.

Also specifically with your 2.3% Iberian it is most likely not real if you have no known actual ancestry from Spain and Portugal. Did you get your result on Ancestry or 23andMe? Both these companies have updated their Ancestry Compositions. It would be interesting to see what your full ancestry breakdown is? It could give some clues if you posted this.

Yeah, it's still at 2.3%.

[Dna8]

In a more general sense, you folk don't see some parallels in Britsh and Iberian aesthetics, beyond their mutual European identity?

[Cristiano viejo]

There is also the event of the Spanish sailors from the Armada landing in Ireland. There is a mythic assumption that they settled there but most or all of them were killed.

Most of them returned to Spain but a tiny minority remained in Ireland, so that is not a mythic assumption.
What is a myth is that dark haired Irish descend of those sailors and soldiers.

[Daco Celtic]

Most of them returned to Spain but a tiny minority remained in Ireland, so that is not a mythic assumption.
What is a myth is that dark haired Irish descend of those sailors and soldiers.

I agree. My Irish half is from Cork at the very southern end of Ireland and there was a belief, even among my Irish grandparents, that Spanish sailors bred with the local population. There is a similar belief with Norwegians that Portuguese sailors shipwrecked along the west coast of Norway and intermingled with local population. That is supposed to explain dark Norwegians. I don't doubt there was some contact, but I find it far fetched that a small group of sailors could have such a big genetic impact on Northern European countries. I mean how much action did these sailors get? I also see very little DNA evidence to support this theory. I've read dark features have always been present in Northern Europe and date back to the neanderthal.

[Grace O'Malley]

Most of them returned to Spain but a tiny minority remained in Ireland, so that is not a mythic assumption.
What is a myth is that dark haired Irish descend of those sailors and soldiers.

The myth is that forces from the Spanish Armada survived in enough numbers to alter the Irish gene pool and be the cause of people like HoboJim getting Iberian from an Irish grandparent. As I've pointed out the majority of Irish don't even get Iberian let alone enough to pass on to grandchildren who only have one Irish grandparent. Most people have no idea of what Irish genetics are like.

Very good article below.


On September 16, 1588 seven Spanish ships appeared off Liscannor, sighted by Nicholas Cahane, an agent of Boetius Clancy, the High Sherriff of County Clare. They were the miserable remnants of a once mighty Spanish fleet.

They anchored off Kilrush, where the starving sailors attempted to trade with the locals for food and water. Six ships sailed away unscathed, but another, the Annunciada sank off Scattery Island, was set alight by crew and looted by locals. Two other ships were also lost: the San Estaban and San Marcos, with the loss of around 800 lives.

Crawling ashore, half drowned, malnourished and in no fit state to resist, the survivors, about 300 men, were massacred at Spanish Point by both Irish forces raised by the O’Briens and English soldiers led by the Sherriff, Boetius Clancy. [1]

http://www.theirishstory.com/2015/08/19/ireland-and-the-spanish-armada-1588/#.XEBgw1wzbIU

[Bellbeaking]

From retards tbh

[Bellbeaking]

I've always had the idea that Iberians and Brits share some genetics..

They do share a little in that they are both Europeans.

British Neolithics where similar to Basque ones.
They both had Beaker input (R1b) But it was 90% on the Irish/British side and only 40% (100% Y-DNA) on the Iberian side.
They both likely had some later Celtic and Germanic migrations into their countries.

But overall, Brits/Irish are closer to Eastern European populations than Iberian's. Oppenheimer and Sykes are a little irresponsible. Many people still believe there is some sort of Basque-Irish Celtic or Neolithic link even though Autosomal DNA is good enough to disprove this completely.

[CordedWhelp]

There is a connection, but right, it isn't Basque per se, but rather iberian beakers (although the british are perhaps more northern beaker? I may need to recheck)

[Bellbeaking]

There is a connection, but right, it isn't Basque per se, but rather iberian beakers (although the british are perhaps more northern beaker? I may need to recheck)

Its a little complex. British Neolithics where like Iberian Neolithics.

Britian was then 90% overtuned by Rhine Beakers, and spain 40% (but 90-100% on the y side)

https://i.imgur.com/KcajRWQ.png

It gets confusing because spain was already bell beaker before this culturally, just without any genetic similarity to the Rhine Beakers who where like 70% steppe. Whereas the spanish beakers (prior to the R1b invasion) where mostly just EEF

I think Britain today is Steppe-EEF-WHG 43-42-15 or so and spain is 75-25-0

[CordedWhelp]

Its a little complex. British Neolithics where like Iberian Neolithics.

Britian was then 90% overtuned by Rhine Beakers, and spain 40% (but 90-100% on the y side)

https://i.imgur.com/KcajRWQ.png

It gets confusing because spain was already bell beaker before this culturally, just without any genetic similarity to the Rhine Beakers who where like 70% steppe. Whereas the spanish beakers (prior to the R1b invasion) where mostly EEF and a little WHG

That sounds right. I have a feeling this year we'll learn one or more interesting new tidbit about the Bell Beakers.

[Grace O'Malley]

There is a connection, but right, it isn't Basque per se, but rather iberian beakers (although the british are perhaps more northern beaker? I may need to recheck)

Irish aren't descended from Iberian beakers. Irish are descended from Rhenish Beakers like the British. Rhenish Beakers are the people that carried R1b. There is now discussion that Dutch and British Beakers are actually an offshoot of Corded Ware single grave. Why do the Irish plot a little more north of English if the British are more northern Beaker? They both had the same kind of Beaker group carrying a majority R1b-L21.

You can more about Bell Beakers and the Corded Ware connection here.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html

The Beakers that went to Iberia also were Rhenish but they all came from more northern areas. Beakers that carried R1b didn't originate in Iberia.

[CordedWhelp]

Irish aren't descended from Iberian beakers. Irish are descended from Rhenish Beakers like the British. Rhenish Beakers are the people that carried R1b. There is now discussion that Dutch and British Beakers are actually an offshoot of Corded Ware single grave. Why do the Irish plot a little more north of English if the British are more northern Beaker? They both had the same kind of Beaker group carrying a majority R1b-L21.

You can more about Bell Beakers and the Corded Ware connection here.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html

The Beakers that went to Iberia also were Rhenish but they all came from more northern areas. Beakers that carried R1b didn't originate in Iberia.

I'm well aware of what is being argued here and frequent Davidski's blog. I also don't appreciate being addressed like I am a child. No hard feelings, though.

[Grace O'Malley]

I'm well aware of what is being argued here and frequent Davidski's blog. I also don't appreciate being addressed like I am a child. No hard feelings, though.

How was I addressing you like a child? I was just clarifying that the Beakers that came to Ireland were the same as the Beakers that came to Britain because your post implied that they were different.

[Joso]

Because the baskid and the keltic nordid phenotypes are very similar

[Morena]

How was I addressing you like a child? I was just clarifying that the Beakers that came to Ireland were the same as the Beakers that came to Britain because your post implied that they were different.

Do they have a name for the beakers who invaded Iberia? If they are not the same as the ones who invaded the Isles, who were they related to?

Oh wait, you answered my question in an earlier post.

[Creoda]

Its a little complex. British Neolithics where like Iberian Neolithics.

Britian was then 90% overtuned by Rhine Beakers, and spain 40% (but 90-100% on the y side)

https://i.imgur.com/KcajRWQ.png

It gets confusing because spain was already bell beaker before this culturally, just without any genetic similarity to the Rhine Beakers who where like 70% steppe. Whereas the spanish beakers (prior to the R1b invasion) where mostly just EEF

I think Britain today is Steppe-EEF-WHG 43-42-15 or so and spain is 75-25-0
Britain is on average 47-48% Steppe and 37-38% EEF, according to G25 averages.

[Daco Celtic]

There is a claim I often see online that people from the western coast of Ireland are genetically somehow Basque or Spanish like, in contrast to people in Northern Ireland and along the east coast who are more British-like.

But from what genetic studies show, this could not be further from the truth. In fact, the British have more southern-shifting ancestry than the Irish do, and the differences within Ireland are not so much east to west, as much as it is that there are isolated pockets throughout the country with more or less foreign mixture, but none of them plot near Basques.

Yes, you’re right. If only half the people on TA understood this. The rumor was probably stated by a drunk guy at a bar.

[Bellbeaking]

Britain is on average 47-48% Steppe and 37-38% EEF, according to G25 averages.


Ketch did you see Haak et al 2015, which put England at like 45% EEF and 40% steppe, EEF seemed a little high but this was a while ago (2015), thoughts on that? I am not sure if they included CHG as EEF or something in that.

[Creoda]

Ketch did you see Haak et al 2015, which put England at like 45% EEF and 40% steppe, EEF seemed a little high but this was a while ago (2015), thoughts on that? I am not sure if they included CHG as EEF or something in that.
I assume you're referring to that famous orange-blue-green chart? I haven't seen such figures anywhere else. That chart is obviously not accurate, the difference in deep ancestry it portrays between say Scots and English is not realistic (Scots are 2x as WHG as English?)

The differences in Steppe-WHG-EEF across the British Isles (and core NW Europe) aren't very big.

My mother from England in G25

[1] "distance%=4.0736"

Yamnaya_Samara,48.6
Barcin_N,37.2
WHG,14.2

Father from Ireland

[1] "distance%=6.1032"

Yamnaya_Samara,49.6
Barcin_N,35
WHG,15.4

Me

[1] "distance%=5.8442"

Yamnaya_Samara,48.8
Barcin_N,36.4
WHG,14.8

[Bellbeaking]

I assume you're referring to that famous orange-blue-green chart? I haven't seen such figures anywhere else. That chart is obviously not accurate, the difference in deep ancestry it portrays between say Scots and English is not realistic (Scots are 2x as WHG as English?)

The differences in Steppe-WHG-EEF across the British Isles (and core NW Europe) aren't very big.


Yes it was a bizzare study, where from england is your mother from (North/south)? S.England obviously has more EEF. Even that would not explain it. I hope they release a new paper similar to that one soon. It was 2015, which is a little too old for deep ancestry considering in depth understanding of steppe invasions and genetics is quite a recent phenomenon.

[Creoda]

Yes it was a bizzare study, where from england is your mother from (North/south)? S.England obviously has more EEF. Even that would not explain it. I hope they release a new paper similar to that one soon. It was 2015, which is a little too old for deep ancestry considering in depth understanding of steppe invasions and genetics is quite a recent phenomenon.
Stoke, so in the Northern half.

[de Burgh II]

Irish aren't descended from Iberian beakers. Irish are descended from Rhenish Beakers like the British. Rhenish Beakers are the people that carried R1b. There is now discussion that Dutch and British Beakers are actually an offshoot of Corded Ware single grave. Why do the Irish plot a little more north of English if the British are more northern Beaker? They both had the same kind of Beaker group carrying a majority R1b-L21.

You can more about Bell Beakers and the Corded Ware connection here.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html

The Beakers that went to Iberia also were Rhenish but they all came from more northern areas. Beakers that carried R1b didn't originate in Iberia.

I thought Iberian Beakers were mostly Neolithic in origin? Wasn't it merely a cultural diffusion of pottery for Iberia rather than population hybridization/replacement?

[Bellbeaking]

I thought Iberian Beakers were mostly Neolithic in origin? Wasn't it merely a cultural diffusion of pottery for Iberia rather than population hybridization/replacement?

the R1b beakers where rhinish, and they went to Iberia and they replaced the Iberian neolithic beaker men.

[Bellbeaking]

Stoke, so in the Northern half.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w0FIshJWvB_WEkxZmBwuV21gQ7fAnsKyCm0XNU2TzH0/pubhtml

this 'study' was on SE england and found very little difference between eng/scot/scandi - only france was an outlier in the n.europe section. I don't know what is wrong with Haak et al 2015, but there is no way england and scotland would plot right next to one another on a PCA if their ancestral compositions where that different.

[Grace O'Malley]

I assume you're referring to that famous orange-blue-green chart? I haven't seen such figures anywhere else. That chart is obviously not accurate, the difference in deep ancestry it portrays between say Scots and English is not realistic (Scots are 2x as WHG as English?)

The differences in Steppe-WHG-EEF across the British Isles (and core NW Europe) aren't very big.

My mother from England in G25

[1] "distance%=4.0736"

Yamnaya_Samara,48.6
Barcin_N,37.2
WHG,14.2

Father from Ireland

[1] "distance%=6.1032"

Yamnaya_Samara,49.6
Barcin_N,35
WHG,15.4

Me

[1] "distance%=5.8442"

Yamnaya_Samara,48.8
Barcin_N,36.4
WHG,14.8

This is mine.

Fit 4.4824

Barcin 33.33
WHG 14.17
Yamnaya_Samara 52.5

[Grace O'Malley]

I thought Iberian Beakers were mostly Neolithic in origin? Wasn't it merely a cultural diffusion of pottery for Iberia rather than population hybridization/replacement?

Yes there are two different groups that were called Beakers. The Beakers that originated in Iberia were Neolithic, had no Steppe component and were non R1b. The confusion is that both were named Beakers. The Rhenish Beakers carrying the Steppe component and R1b went all over Western Europe so you know the rest.

[Peterski]

Yes there are two different groups that were called Beakers. The Beakers that originated in Iberia were Neolithic, had no Steppe component and were non R1b. The confusion is that both were named Beakers. The Rhenish Beakers carrying the Steppe component and R1b went all over Western Europe so you know the rest.

I wonder if those were really Rhenish Beakers or rather NW French Beakers (as you know we still don't have DNA from this group). Based on this map, NW France had a much higher concentration of Beaker population that Rhineland:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-bell-beaker-superhighway.html

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RdjRIQo45xg/XFvKK5i7ATI/AAAAAAAAHi8/7yEfzHB4jMQHo6dtrkDylg044q4tykBRQCLcBGAs/s1600/Mapping_Beakers.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

I wonder if those were really Rhenish Beakers or rather NW French Beakers (as you know we still don't have DNA from this group). Based on this map, NW France had a much higher concentration of Beaker population that Rhineland:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-bell-beaker-superhighway.html

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RdjRIQo45xg/XFvKK5i7ATI/AAAAAAAAHi8/7yEfzHB4jMQHo6dtrkDylg044q4tykBRQCLcBGAs/s1600/Mapping_Beakers.jpg

They were the same as Dutch Beakers and now Davidski thinks that the Dutch and British beakers were an offshoot of Corded Ware. Davidski thinks now it was these Dutch Beakers that spread and mixed with different populations creating the differences in Beakers.

[Grace O'Malley]

I wonder if those were really Rhenish Beakers or rather NW French Beakers (as you know we still don't have DNA from this group). Based on this map, NW France had a much higher concentration of Beaker population that Rhineland:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-bell-beaker-superhighway.html

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RdjRIQo45xg/XFvKK5i7ATI/AAAAAAAAHi8/7yEfzHB4jMQHo6dtrkDylg044q4tykBRQCLcBGAs/s1600/Mapping_Beakers.jpg

What's the best model to use if you want to see how much Beaker a population has?

[Creoda]

What's the best model to use if you want to see how much Beaker a population has?
According to the model by Token, average Irish are about 85-86% Northern (Dutch) Beaker, you would be about that.

[Bellbeaking]

https://i.imgur.com/IcHY8NE.png