The Slavic Origin of Greek Macedonians

[Matrix]

Today's Greek Macedonians and Northern Greeks are largely descendant of Slavic settlers in the area and settled Pontic Greeks from Asia Minor.

Atleast 40% of the Greek Macedonian paternal lineages are of Slavic origin.

This is a map created by an Anthrogenica user that highlights the Slavic markers of I2a1b and R1a in Greek Macedonia and Northern Greece all in one map:

https://s31.postimg.org/eid6xv8kr/13770535_690365121117806_5102015285444749814_n.jpg


As you can see, up to 40% of the Greek Macedonian YDNA are of Slavic source. While most of other parts of Greece that was settled by Slavs and later by Albanians, Vlachs etc less so.

Peloponnese and West Greece itself was largely settled by Albanians.

Athens itself was described as an Albanian town.


Another study on R1a shows Greek Macedonia has up to 30% R1a similar to Slavic countries, while Albania, Kosovo and certain parts of Greece has much less so. Kosovo and parts of Albania barely reach up to 3%.




In Southern Europe R1a1a is not common, but significant levels have been found in pockets, such as in the Pas Valley in Northern Spain, areas of Venice, and Calabria in Italy.[73] The Balkans shows lower frequencies, and significant variation between areas, for example more than 30% in Slovenia, Croatia and Greek Macedonia, but less than 10% in Albania, Kosovo and parts of Greece.[74][66][12





Almost every Greek Macedonian I have seen that did a DNA test had a Slavic marker.

They also show higher IBD sharing with Slavs than other non-Slavic speaking neighbors according to studies.

Macedonia was also settled by thousands if not millions of Pontic Greece from Asia Minor / Caucasus during the population exchange.

What is today Greek Macedonia was at several occasions depopulated of it's native population. Last time it happened was when the Slavs and Avars invaded the Balkans.

One cannot exactly say that today's Greek Macedonians are the same people that lived there during Alexander's time.

Byzantine sources recorded up to hundreds of thousand Slavs swarming Macedonia.

The Byzantium managed to secure todays Greek Macedonia and eventually Hellenized the Slavic population of Macedonia / Northern Greece from help of the Orthodox church and Pontic migrants.

The claim modern Greece has on Macedonia is quite ironic considering modern Greece as a nation and the Greek identity was a creation that occured in the 19th century, a result of mix mash of different ethnicities that had settled in Greece; Slavs, Pontic Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Native Hellenes all united under the Orthodox banner.

The Greek identity is a religious identity created in the 19th century with various ethnicities.

Greece occupied ''Greek'' Macedonia during the Balkan Wars. This was the first time Macedonia ever became part of Greece.

Prior to that Macedonia had been under Ottomans, Bulgarians and Byzantium.

When Greece occupied it during the Balkan wars, only 40% of it's population was Greek, large chunk descendant of the Hellenised Sclavenis. The rest were Slavs and Muslims settled during the Bulgarian Empire and Osmanli.

The Greek government expelled it's Slavic speakers and Muslims and took in millions of Pontic Greeks from Asia Minor. This ramped up the Greek % in the area up to 90%.

Prior to that there was never a Greek identity or a country called Greece or a Greek national counsciousness. Only a religious identity and Hellenic speakers.

The ancient Hellenes were people divided into different independent kingdoms and tribes. There was never a national counsciousness among them. The Greek national counsciousness is a 19th century invention.

They were just people that spoke a common language but had their own independent kingdoms. At times they went at war with eachother.

The Ancient Macedonians were a mix of Thracians, Ilyrians and Hellenes. Their elite had most likely adopted a Hellenic language.


The Macedonians were always an independent kingdom until Roman occupation. After that it fell under various different empires.

The first time a country called Greece held Macedonia was in the 19th century when it occupied it.

Its population that lives there today is far from the same as that of Alexander's time.

[Sikeliot]

It's Thrace, Macedonia, and Thessaly where the Slavic input in Greece is concentrated, and then it is present, but low, in the Peloponnese and central Greece.

[Crn Volk]

Pretty accurate

[Sikeliot]

Higher Slavic input in the northeast Peloponnese is consistent with GEDMatch results I have seen, compared to other parts of the Peloponnese where it is lower.

[Matrix]

It's Thrace, Macedonia, and Thessaly where the Slavic input in Greece is concentrated, and then it is present, but low, in the Peloponnese and central Greece.

Do you have anymore DNA tests of Greek Macedonians? I reckon a decent amount should also be Pontic Greeks.

They are more Slavic than some South Slavs.

True descendants of Alexander. Lmaoo.

[Crn Volk]

Do you have anymore DNA tests of Greek Macedonians? I reckon a decent amount should also be Pontic Greeks.

They are more Slavic than some South Slavs.

True descendants of Alexander. Lmaoo.

I'd like to see results with the Pontian results removed.

[Sikeliot]

Do you have anymore DNA tests of Greek Macedonians? I reckon a decent amount should also be Pontic Greeks.

They are more Slavic than some South Slavs.

True descendants of Alexander. Lmaoo.

This is what I notice if I had to explain "trends":

1. Macedonia, Thessaly, and Thrace are similar to Bulgarians except slightly southern shifted (more Mediterranean).
2. Epirotes, Central Greeks, and most Peloponnesians have more western Mediterranean input (closer to Albania or parts of central Italy), but Slavic exists at lower levels.
3. Aegean islanders and Cretans are similar to Sicilians.
4. Pontic Greeks, who only make up a minority of the population, are close to Armenians and are of native Caucasian/Anatolian descent.

[Sikeliot]

I'd like to see results with the Pontian results removed.

Are you trying to say Pontians getting mixed into the northern Greek average cause the Slavic input of the natives to be underestimated?

[Crn Volk]

Are you trying to say Pontians getting mixed into the northern Greek average cause the Slavic input of the natives to be underestimated?

Yes, according to your
4. Pontic Greeks, who only make up a minority of the population, are close to Armenians and are of native Caucasian/Anatolian descent.
Excluding them would give a better comparison to ethnic Macedonians and Bulgarians. Currently the Pontian results pollute the results of Northern Greece.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, according to your
Excluding them would give a better comparison to ethnic Macedonians and Bulgarians. Currently the Pontian results pollute the results of Northern Greece.

Pontians make up a small portion of the population so I think they are usually not included in the samples.

But I can definitely say, people from the northern 1/3 of Greece are generally close to Bulgarians, only slightly more southern plotting. These Greeks do have Slavic input (from a Polish-like source, apparently) but Bulgarians also have pre-Slavic, native Balkan ancestry that is closer to the base population for Greece.

[Leto]

Pontians make up a small portion of the population so I think they are usually not included in the samples.

But I can definitely say, people from the northern 1/3 of Greece are generally close to Bulgarians, only slightly more southern plotting. These Greeks do have Slavic input (from a Polish-like source, apparently) but Bulgarians also have pre-Slavic, native Balkan ancestry that is closer to the base population for Greece.
You are supposedly only 1/4 Polish and still you have more NE European admixture than an average mainland Greek.

[Sikeliot]

You are supposedly only 1/4 Polish and still you have more NE European admixture than an average mainland Greek.

My grandmother has higher than average NE European for a Portuguese, that is why. But I actually barely plot north of Epirotes and Peloponnese. I plot WEST of them.

[Sikeliot]

This is my MDLP K23. I am close to northern Italians, Kosovars, and Epirotes, and I am closer to mainland Greeks than a full Sicilian would be.


# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 28.42
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.28
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 25.30
4 Near_East 5.54
5 South_Central_Asian 4.68
6 North_African 4.05
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.17
8 Amerindian 1.12


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_North_ @ 3.182965
2 Kosovar_ @ 9.537361
3 Greek_Northwest_ @ 9.836071
4 Italian_Piedmont_ @ 11.092868
5 German-Volga_ @ 11.520050
6 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 11.569202
7 Bulgarian_ @ 11.877937
8 Greek_Thessaly_ @ 12.138401
9 Albanian_Tirana_ @ 12.241836
10 Italian_Bergamo_ @ 12.420009
11 Greek_Thessaloniki_ @ 12.538855
12 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 12.671625
13 Macedonian_ @ 13.261055
14 Montenegrian_ @ 13.499665
15 South_German_ @ 14.061942
16 Serb_Serbia_ @ 14.194846
17 French_ @ 14.257866
18 Romanian_ @ 15.121736
19 Belgian_ @ 15.337873
20 Central_Greek_ @ 15.352347

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi_ +50% Welsh_ @ 2.257293

[Leto]

You have a NE European haplogroup too. Have you tried Morley to predict your subclade?

[Sikeliot]

You have a NE European haplogroup too. Have you tried Morley to predict your subclade?

No, I have not.

But I do know that when I look at how much NE European I score versus my mother, my father I can infer scores normal Sicilian levels (which are considerably lower than mainland Greeks).

I am closer to a mainland Greek, than a full Sicilian would be.

[catgeorge]

Historically and genetically non factual actually.

[Bobby Martnen]

Why does this separate people into NE and SW Euros, but ignore NW and SE Euros?

[catgeorge]

This is my MDLP K23. I am close to northern Italians, Kosovars, and Epirotes, and I am closer to mainland Greeks than a full Sicilian would be.


# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 28.42
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.28
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 25.30
4 Near_East 5.54
5 South_Central_Asian 4.68
6 North_African 4.05
7 Ancestral_Altaic 1.17
8 Amerindian 1.12


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_North_ @ 3.182965
2 Kosovar_ @ 9.537361
3 Greek_Northwest_ @ 9.836071
4 Italian_Piedmont_ @ 11.092868
5 German-Volga_ @ 11.520050
6 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 11.569202
7 Bulgarian_ @ 11.877937
8 Greek_Thessaly_ @ 12.138401
9 Albanian_Tirana_ @ 12.241836
10 Italian_Bergamo_ @ 12.420009
11 Greek_Thessaloniki_ @ 12.538855
12 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 12.671625
13 Macedonian_ @ 13.261055
14 Montenegrian_ @ 13.499665
15 South_German_ @ 14.061942
16 Serb_Serbia_ @ 14.194846
17 French_ @ 14.257866
18 Romanian_ @ 15.121736
19 Belgian_ @ 15.337873
20 Central_Greek_ @ 15.352347

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Ashkenazi_ +50% Welsh_ @ 2.257293


Complete guessmology after this point

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_North_ @ 3.182965
2 Kosovar_ @ 9.537361
3 Greek_Northwest_ @ 9.836071

all other distances are too far

[Sikeliot]

Complete guessmology after this point

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_North_ @ 3.182965
2 Kosovar_ @ 9.537361
3 Greek_Northwest_ @ 9.836071

all other distances are too far


Well what it does show is I am not that far from Epirotes (NW Greece) at all. And these are not even the most 'northern' shifted Greeks.. rather, the Thessaly sample is.

[Bobby Martnen]

No, I have not.

But I do know that when I look at how much NE European I score versus my mother, my father I can infer scores normal Sicilian levels (which are considerably lower than mainland Greeks).

I am closer to a mainland Greek, than a full Sicilian would be.

Isn't he half Sardinian though?

[Leto]

No, I have not.

But I do know that when I look at how much NE European I score versus my mother, my father I can infer scores normal Sicilian levels (which are considerably lower than mainland Greeks).

I am closer to a mainland Greek, than a full Sicilian would be.
This is where you plot on the K15 map:
https://preview.ibb.co/c4PB4n/Sikeliot.png (https://ibb.co/bRpNAS)

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 22.42
2 Atlantic 19.56
3 East_Med 14.95
4 North_Sea 14.78
5 Baltic 12.02
6 Eastern_Euro 5.8
7 West_Asian 5.63
8 Red_Sea 2.62
9 Northeast_African 1.63
10 Amerindian 0.52
11 Sub-Saharan 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.61
2 Tuscan 8.99
3 Portuguese 11.37
4 Bulgarian 11.4
5 Spanish_Galicia 11.69
6 Greek_Thessaly 11.86
7 Spanish_Extremadura 12.01
8 Romanian 12.02
9 Greek 12.37
10 Spanish_Andalucia 12.44
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.64
12 Spanish_Murcia 12.66
13 Spanish_Cataluna 12.68
14 Serbian 12.87
15 Spanish_Valencia 13.51
16 West_Sicilian 14.45
17 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 14.56
18 Spanish_Cantabria 14.99
19 Italian_Abruzzo 15.04
20 Southwest_French 15.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% Serbian + 31.9% Sardinian @ 3.47
2 69.9% Romanian + 30.1% Sardinian @ 3.95
3 57.2% Greek_Thessaly + 42.8% Southwest_French @ 4.03
4 56.6% Greek_Thessaly + 43.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.52
5 51.6% Spanish_Galicia + 48.4% Greek @ 4.62
6 79.8% North_Italian + 20.2% Moldavian @ 4.94
7 70.1% North_Italian + 29.9% Bulgarian @ 4.95
8 52.5% Portuguese + 47.5% Greek @ 4.96
9 88.8% North_Italian + 11.2% Lithuanian @ 5.09
10 88.8% North_Italian + 11.2% Erzya @ 5.11
11 55.6% Greek + 44.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.12
12 81.1% North_Italian + 18.9% Croatian @ 5.12
13 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Ukrainian @ 5.13
14 51.5% Greek_Thessaly + 48.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.14
15 85.4% North_Italian + 14.6% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.15
16 87.5% North_Italian + 12.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.17
17 59% Greek_Thessaly + 41% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.18
18 87.9% North_Italian + 12.1% Estonian_Polish @ 5.18
19 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% Southwest_Russian @ 5.19
20 70.4% Greek_Thessaly + 29.6% French_Basque @ 5.21

You are genetically closer to Northern Italians than to Southern. Deal with it!

[Sikeliot]

This is where you plot on the K15 map:
https://preview.ibb.co/c4PB4n/Sikeliot.png (https://ibb.co/bRpNAS)

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 22.42
2 Atlantic 19.56
3 East_Med 14.95
4 North_Sea 14.78
5 Baltic 12.02
6 Eastern_Euro 5.8
7 West_Asian 5.63
8 Red_Sea 2.62
9 Northeast_African 1.63
10 Amerindian 0.52
11 Sub-Saharan 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.61
2 Tuscan 8.99
3 Portuguese 11.37
4 Bulgarian 11.4
5 Spanish_Galicia 11.69
6 Greek_Thessaly 11.86
7 Spanish_Extremadura 12.01
8 Romanian 12.02
9 Greek 12.37
10 Spanish_Andalucia 12.44
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.64
12 Spanish_Murcia 12.66
13 Spanish_Cataluna 12.68
14 Serbian 12.87
15 Spanish_Valencia 13.51
16 West_Sicilian 14.45
17 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 14.56
18 Spanish_Cantabria 14.99
19 Italian_Abruzzo 15.04
20 Southwest_French 15.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.1% Serbian + 31.9% Sardinian @ 3.47
2 69.9% Romanian + 30.1% Sardinian @ 3.95
3 57.2% Greek_Thessaly + 42.8% Southwest_French @ 4.03
4 56.6% Greek_Thessaly + 43.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.52
5 51.6% Spanish_Galicia + 48.4% Greek @ 4.62
6 79.8% North_Italian + 20.2% Moldavian @ 4.94
7 70.1% North_Italian + 29.9% Bulgarian @ 4.95
8 52.5% Portuguese + 47.5% Greek @ 4.96
9 88.8% North_Italian + 11.2% Lithuanian @ 5.09
10 88.8% North_Italian + 11.2% Erzya @ 5.11
11 55.6% Greek + 44.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.12
12 81.1% North_Italian + 18.9% Croatian @ 5.12
13 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Ukrainian @ 5.13
14 51.5% Greek_Thessaly + 48.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5.14
15 85.4% North_Italian + 14.6% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.15
16 87.5% North_Italian + 12.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.17
17 59% Greek_Thessaly + 41% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.18
18 87.9% North_Italian + 12.1% Estonian_Polish @ 5.18
19 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% Southwest_Russian @ 5.19
20 70.4% Greek_Thessaly + 29.6% French_Basque @ 5.21

You are genetically closer to Northern Italians than to Southern. Deal with it!


I am west of Thessaly, but barely north of it.

I might be closer to northern Italians, but I am closer to Thessalians than a full Sicilian is.

This is my full Sicilian cousin from Palermo. Compare to distance 11.86 for me:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Jewish 4.92
2 South_Italian 5.15
3 East_Sicilian 5.19
4 Ashkenazi 6.01
5 Sephardic_Jewish 6.17
6 Central_Greek 6.22
7 Algerian_Jewish 6.62
8 West_Sicilian 7.74
9 Italian_Abruzzo 8.02
10 Tunisian_Jewish 9.7
11 Libyan_Jewish 10.64
12 Greek 11.79
13 Greek_Thessaly 12
14 Cyprian 12.16
15 Tuscan 13.44
16 Lebanese_Muslim 15.21
17 Syrian 15.88
18 Turkish 17.94
19 Samaritan 18.1
20 Jordanian 18.24

[Leto]

I am west of Thessaly, but barely north of it.

You are almost as Northern as the Bulgarian reference, only slightly shifted toward the South.

[Sikeliot]

You are almost as Northern as the Bulgarian reference, only slightly shifted toward the South.

I'm not disputing that. All I am saying is I am closer to northern Greeks than a full Sicilian is.

[Kouros]

Excluding them would give a better comparison to ethnic Macedonians and Bulgarians. Currently the Pontian results pollute the results of Northern Greece.

It doesn't pollute anything dumbass. How about we remove all your Albanian, Greek, and Vlach ancestry and see what's left? What would be the point of that?

[Kouros]

btw go bump my thread boys, i finally cracked the fucking code

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?239269-The-Macedonian-Indian-Origin-of-Tosk-Albanians

[Crn Volk]

It doesn't pollute anything dumbass. How about we remove all your Albanian, Greek, and Vlach ancestry and see what's left? What would be the point of that?

Here you can see ethnic Macedonian and Albanian-Macedonian results separately. Even Macedonian-Romani are shown separately;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I would like to see the results for Greeks (North) similarly picked apart for an accurate picture.

[Kouros]

Here you can see ethnic Macedonian and Albanian-Macedonian results separately. Even Macedonian-Romani are shown separately;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I would like to see the results for Greeks (North) similarly picked apart for an accurate picture.

What's your point?

I also don't care about your Y-DNA.

[Crn Volk]

What's your point?

I also don't care about your Y-DNA.

Your claims on ancient Greek heritage, from a genetic perspective, are very flimsy indeed. Read the OP again to see what I mean. You a bit slow?

[Kouros]

Your claims on ancient Greek heritage, from a genetic perspective, are very flimsy indeed. Read the OP again to see what I mean. You a bit slow?

Son, point me to a quote where I claim I am an ancient Greek? You log in to spam gay news headlines and chauvanist garbage and all of a sudden you are an expert on population genetics?

Not a single Slav was settled in Crete -- the map is bunk and you're a retard. Get a life. What are you, 30? 40?

[NSXD60]

Alexander would have had more in common phenotypically with the Slavs (save for the slightly Mongol-shifted ones) than with Greeks below Macedonia, but culturally he was a Greek.

[Dusan]

Here is the link to the map in the OP btw

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8002-Map-of-Slavic-y-dna-in-Greece-compiled-by-user-Passa


We be ancient Makedonians and shiiiit straight outta Poland

[Dusan]

Alexander would have had more in common phenotypically with the Slavs (save for the slightly Mongol-shifted ones) than with Greeks below Macedonia, but culturally he was a Greek.

Alexander looked nothing like a Slav.

[Voskos]

Look who's talking. Albanian calling Greeks as slavs, that's a funny one.

[Papastratosels26]

Theconclussion of this thread?Change borders or what?

[Crn Volk]

Alexander looked nothing like a Slav.

He didn’t look like a East Slav, but South South yes. Remember South Slavs are typically Dinaric or some kind of Med types, which Alexander had owing to the Illyrian input he had in him.

[JQP4545]

Why is there a hotspot of Slavic DNA on Crete as well?

[Tauromachos]

He didn’t look like a East Slav, but South South yes. Remember South Slavs are typically Dinaric or some kind of Med types, which Alexander had owing to the Illyrian input he had in him.

South Slavs didn't exist at that time

There were Greeks,Romans,Thracians,Illyrians

Alexander at least his paternal line was Greek,read about the Argead Dynasty.

It can be speculated only if his mother might have been Illyrian.
Some people claim she was others say she was Greek.

[WillyWonka]

What do you wanna prove by creating a thread like this one? Even if 40 percent of the Northen Greeks have paternal lineages of Slavic origins, does it make them less Greek or they have less national feeling? Even if you're right, you think their mentality, culture, history, borders etc are gonna change? And what's the matter with the idea of being descendants of the Ancient Greeks? Is their claiming so unreal? I can't wait for the time where people are gonna use internet for their benefit, expanding their knowledge, and not throwing shade and expressing their complex...

[nightrider+]

Slavs (save for the slightly Mongol-shifted ones)

Not much is going to be left then.

[Crn Volk]

South Slavs didn't exist at that time

There were Greeks,Romans,Thracians,Illyrians

Alexander at least his paternal line was Greek,read about the Argead Dynasty.

It can be speculated only if his mother might have been Illyrian.
Some people claim she was others say she was Greek.

Indeed, so why do South Slavs today look so medish?

[Papastratosels26]

Seems legit.

[Tauromachos]

Yes, according to your
Excluding them would give a better comparison to ethnic Macedonians and Bulgarians. Currently the Pontian results pollute the results of Northern Greece.

Go and fuck yourself!

[Papastratosels26]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/776ee3bcfe8057592193aa79e378734d.jpg
TheSclaveni(inLatin) orSklavenoi(inGreek) wereearly Slavictribes that raided, invaded and settled theBalkansin theEarly Middle Agesand eventually became known as the ethnogenesis of theSouth Slavs. They were mentioned by earlyByzantinechroniclers asbarbarianshaving appeared at the Byzantine borders along with theAntes(East Slavs), another Slavic group. The Sclaveni were differentiated from the Antes andWends(West Slavs); however, they were described as kin. Eventually, most South Slavic tribes accepted Byzantine suzerainty, and came under Byzantine cultural influence. The term was widely used as general catch-all term until the emergence of separate tribal names by the 10th century.



Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Papastratosels26]

Byzantine literary accounts (i.e., John of Ephesus, etc.) mention the Slavs raiding areas of Greece during the 580s. According to later sources such as The Miracles of Saint Demetrius, the Drougoubitai, Sagoudatai, Belegezitai, Baiounetai, and Berzetai laid siege to Thessaloniki in 614–616.[37] However, this particular event was actually of local significance.[38] A combined effort of the Avars and Slavs two years later also failed to take the city. In 626, a combined Avar, Bulgar and Slav army besieged Constantinople. The siege was broken, which had repercussions upon the power and prestige of the Avar khanate. Slavic pressure on Thessaloniki ebbed after 617/618, until the Siege of Thessalonica (676–678) by a coalition of Rynchinoi, Sagoudatai, Drougoubitai and Stroumanoi attacked. This time, the Belegezites also known as the Velegeziti did not participate and in fact supplied the besieged citizens of Thessaloniki with grain.

A number of medieval sources attest to the presence of Slavs in Greece. While en route to the Holy Land in 732, Willibald "reached the city of Monemvasia, in the land of Slavinia". This particular passage from the Vita Willibaldi is interpreted as an indication of a Slavic presence in the hinterland of the Peloponnese.[39] In reference to the plague of 744–747, Constantine VII wrote during the 10th century that "the entire country [of the Peloponnese] was Slavonized".[40][better source needed] Another source for the period, the Chronicle of Monemvasia speaks of Slavs overrunning the western Peloponnese, but of the eastern Peloponnese, together with Athens, remaining in Byzantine hands throughout this period.[41] However, such sources are far from ideal,[42] and their reliability is debated. For example, while the Byzantinist Peter Charanis believes the Chronicle of Monemvasia to be a reliable account, other scholars point out that it greatly overstates the impact of the Slavic and Avar raids of Greece during this time.[43]

Max Vasmer, a prominent linguist and Indo-Europeanist, complements late medieval historical accounts by listing 429 Slavic toponyms from the Peloponnese alone.[39][44] To what extent the presence of these toponyms reflects compact Slavic settlement is a matter of some debate,[45] and might represent an accumulative strata of toponyms rather than being attributed to the earliest settlement phase.

Relations between the Slavs and Greeks were probably peaceful apart from the (supposed) initial settlement and intermittent uprisings.[46] Being agriculturalists, the Slavs probably traded with the Greeks inside towns.[41] Furthermore, the Slavs surely did not occupy the whole interior or eliminate the Greek population; some Greek villages continued to exist in the interior, probably governing themselves, possibly paying tribute to the Slavs.[41] Some villages were probably mixed, and quite possibly some degree of Hellenization of the Slavs by the Greeks of the Peloponnese had already begun during this period, before re-Hellenization was completed by the Byzantine emperors.[47]

When the Byzantines were not fighting in their eastern territories, they were able to slowly regain imperial control. This was achieved through its theme system, referring to an administrative province on which an army corps was centered, under the control of a strategos ("general").[48] The theme system first appeared in the early 7th century, during the reign of the Emperor Heraclius, and as the Byzantine Empire recovered, it was imposed on all areas that came under Byzantine control.[48] The first Balkan theme created was that in Thrace, in 680 AD.[48] By 695, a second theme, that of "Hellas" (or "Helladikoi"), was established, probably in eastern central Greece.[48] Subduing the Slavs in these themes was simply a matter of accommodating the needs of the Slavic elites and providing them with incentives for their inclusion into the imperial administration.

It was not until 100 years later that a third theme would be established. In 782–784, the eunuch general Staurakios campaigned from Thessaloniki, south to Thessaly and into the Peloponnese.[34] He captured many Slavs and transferred them elsewhere, mostly Anatolia (these Slavs were dubbed Slavesians).[49] However it is not known whether any territory was restored to imperial authority as result of this campaign, though it is likely some was.[34] Sometime between 790 and 802, the theme of Macedonia was created, centered on Adrianople (i.e., east of the modern geographic entity).[34] A serious and successful recovery began under Nicephorus I (802–811).[34] In 805, the theme of the Peloponnese was created.[50] According to the Chronicle of Monemvasia in 805 the Byzantine governor of Corinth went to war with the Slavs, obliterated them, and allowed the original inhabitants to claim their own;[50] the city of Patras was recovered and the region re-settled with Greeks.[51] In the 9th century, new themes continued to arise, although many were small and were carved out of original, larger themes. New themes in the 9th century included those of Thessalonica, Dyrrhachium, Strymon, and Nicopolis.[52] From these themes, Byzantine laws and culture flowed into the interior.[52] By the end of the 9th century most of Greece was culturally and administratively Greek again, with the exception of a few small Slavic tribes in the mountains such as the Melingoi and Ezeritai.[53] Although they were to remain relatively autonomous until Ottoman times, such tribes were the exception rather than the rule.[52]

Apart from military expeditions against Slavs, the re-Hellenization process begun under Nicephorus I involved (often forcible) transfer of peoples.[54] Many Slavs were moved to other parts of the empire, such as Anatolia and made to serve in the military.[55] In return, many Greeks from Sicily and Asia Minor were brought to the interior of Greece, to increase the number of defenders at the Emperor's disposal and dilute the concentration of Slavs.[51] Even non-Greeks were transferred to the Balkans, such as Armenians.[49] As more of the peripheral territories of the Byzantine Empire were lost in the following centuries, e.g., Sicily, southern Italy and Asia Minor, their Greek-speakers made their own way back to Greece. That the re-Hellenization of Greece through population transfers and cultural activities of the Church was successful suggests Slavs found themselves in the midst of many Greeks.[56] It is doubtful that such large number could have been transplanted into Greece in the 9th century; thus there surely had been many Greeks remaining in Greece and continuing to speak Greek throughout the period of Slavic occupation.[56] The success of re-Hellenization also suggests the number of Slavs in Greece was far smaller than the numbers found in the former Yugoslavia and Bulgaria.[56] For example, Bulgaria could not be Hellenized when Byzantine administration was established over the Bulgarians in 1018 to last for well over a century, until 1186.[56]

Eventually, the Byzantines recovered the imperial border north all the way to today's region of Macedonia (which would serve as the northern border of the Byzantine Empire until 1018), although independent Slavic villages remained. As the Slavs supposedly occupied the entire Balkan interior, Constantinople was effectively cut off from the Dalmatian cities under its (nominal) control.[57] Thus Dalmatia came to have closer ties with the Italian Peninsula, because of ability to maintain contact by sea (however, this too, was troubled by Slavic pirates).[57] Additionally, Constantinople was cut off from Rome, which contributed to the growing cultural and political separation between the two centers of European Christendom.[57]

Control of the Slavic tribes was nominal, as they retained their own culture and language. However, the Slavic tribes of Macedonia never formed their own empire or state, and the area often switched between Greek (Byzantine), Bulgarian, Serbian and temporarily even Norman control. The Byzantines were unable to completely Hellenize Macedonia because their progress north was blocked by the Bulgarian Empire, and later by the Serbian Kingdom, which were both Slavic states. However, Byzantine culture nonetheless flowed further north, seen to this day as Bulgaria, the Republic of Macedonia, and Serbia are part of the Orthodox world.[citation needed] Even in Dalmatia, where Byzantine influence was supplanted by Venice and Rome, the influence of Byzantine culture persists.[clarification needed]

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Papastratosels26]

John of Ephesus noted in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579.[20] Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites.[20] By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591 to 605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (see Maurice's Balkan campaigns).

[Tauromachos]

How can Slavic ancestry there be such high when even Fyrom Macedonians from neighbouring regions themselves don't have
so much proper Slavic?

[Papastratosels26]

Εμμονές

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Tauromachos]

Indeed, so why do South Slavs today look so medish?

Read my second post after this one you quoted

If South Slavs or bette(Fyrom Macedonians) themselves already are or look so medish how is possible that Macedonian Greeks
are 40% Slavic?

[Bosniensis]

South Slavs are more Greek and Roman than Italians.

South Slavs according to Minoan and Celtic samples:

Oh my....


Serbian

MINOAN,30.4
BEAKERS-CENTRAL-EUROPEAN,25
CORDED-WARE-BALTIC,22.8
CORDED-WARE-GERMANY,13.2
LEVANT,6.6
STEPPE,1.6
ARMENIA-EBA,0.2
HUNS,0.2

Bulgarian

MINOAN,33.4
CORDED-WARE-BALTIC,26
BEAKERS-CENTRAL-EUROPEAN,17.2
CORDED-WARE-GERMANY,10.2
ARMENIA-EBA,5.4
LEVANT,4.8
BACTRIA-MARGIANA,1.8
HUNS,1.2

Italian_Tuscan

MINOAN,26
BEAKERS-CENTRAL-EUROPEAN,12.2
LEVANT,10
BEAKERS-HUNGARY,9.2
BRITAIN-CA-EBA,8
NO-STEPPE-CENTRAL-EUROPEANS,6.8
CORDED-WARE-GERMANY,5.8
STEPPE-WEST,5.8
BEAKERS-NETHERLANDS,4.8
BEAKERS-BRITAIN,3.6
ARMENIA-EBA,3.4
ANATOLIA_EBA,3
PRE-STEPPE-IBERIA,0.8
CENTRAL-ASIA,0.6

[Tauromachos]

John of Ephesus noted in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579.[20] Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites.[20] By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591 to 605, when the end of conflicts wit


Fuck Slavs

Long live Greece

https://i.imgur.com/K8zy82t.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/IWMe3oq.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTw2YvutJRA


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?270946-Byzantine-Basil-II

[Papastratosels26]

Fuck Slavs

Long live Greece

https://i.imgur.com/K8zy82t.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/IWMe3oq.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTw2YvutJRA


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?270946-Byzantine-Basil-IIYou turned Hellenas. I was right.

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Tauromachos]

You turned Hellenas. I was right.

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

You turned Slav i was right

Νεζναμης

[Papastratosels26]

You turned Slav i was right

ΝεζναμηςΑουτη αμάν αμαν γιαβρουμ

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Tauromachos]

Αουτη αμάν αμαν γιαβρουμ

Στάλθηκε από το G3311 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

Για των Καιδο Σλαβοσποριδη εχεις ακουσει?

[JQP4545]

Most of those Albanians in Greece were Muslim and later left the country after Greece's independence so the amount of Albanian blood in Greeks is not nearly as high as many like to think. Some of that R1a and I2a may predate the Slavs. I2a2 was in the Balkans during the Bronze age and R1a was a major haplogroup of Yamnaya.